Podcast: Don't Kill the Messenger with Movie Research Expert Kevin Goetz
Guest: Agent, Producer, Former Studio Head, Bill Block
Interview Transcript:
Announcer (00:02):
There's a little-known part of Hollywood that most people are not aware of known as the audience test preview. The recently released book, Audienceology, reveals this for the first time. Our podcast series, Don't Kill the Messenger, brings this book to life, taking a peek behind the curtain. And now, join author and entertainment research expert, Kevin Goetz.
Kevin Goetz (00:24):
I have two words to share with you about my guest today. Forward thinking. Well, actually, there's another word. Effective. This guy was taking executive AI courses years ago. Bill Block is here with me today, who is a renowned agent, executive producer, and former studio head. He has produced films including District Nine, The Gentleman, Fury, Bad Moms, Old Dads, and this year's Best Picture Oscar nominee, The Holdovers. With extensive experience across multiple platforms. He has a track record of successful turnarounds and certainly more importantly, profitability as well as his expertise in navigating truly complex financial deals. Bill, we've been partners, man, for a long time. I am so happy to have you here today.
Bill Block (01:23):
I am honored and grateful to be part of the Goetz podcast too.
Kevin Goetz (01:27):
We are going to go right into it. Born and raised in New York. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative> went to Columbia. You were an American history major which thrills me because you, last night at dinner you said to me, I majored with an emphasis on the Federalist Papers and I said, John Jay, Madison, and Alexander Hamilton. And not a lot of people know that. Yeah.
Bill Block (01:47):
Especially the John Jay part.
Kevin Goetz (01:49):
<laugh>. So Bill, listen, you started as an agent, right? Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. How did you do that? Because you actually started your own agency. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative> in your thirties. Yeah. But first you worked for someone.
Bill Block (02:02):
Yes.
Kevin Goetz (02:03):
Who did you work for?
Bill Block (02:05):
Starting in the Irv Schechter agency was actually my first.
Kevin Goetz (02:09):
Irv Schechter. Wow. I remember him.
Bill Block (02:10):
Yep. I came out here, actually answered an ad in the Hollywood Reporter and got a job as a secretary there. The skill then was I could touch type 60 words, no touch type.
Kevin Goetz (02:25):
You could touch type. Hands on the home keys. Yes. Wow.
Bill Block (02:28):
Oh, you had to then. I didn't know that.
Kevin Goetz (02:29):
Yes. So you had that skill.
Bill Block (02:30):
You had to, to be a good secretary.
Kevin Goetz (02:32):
Wow. And I like that you say secretary 'cause a lot of men don't use that word, but that's what you were.
Bill Block (02:38):
Very much so. And was speaking American history, A student of Lyndon Johnson who got his start in Congress as a secretary.
Kevin Goetz (02:47):
He was actually, I think, very underrated when we look at what he really accomplished in his presidency.
Bill Block (02:53):
Oh, the Carro books are the best reading in the world. All of them.
Kevin Goetz (02:56):
Absolutely. I love that we share that, by the way. Yeah. Alright, so you get to the Irv Schechter agency and then you start your own agency. How do you do that?
Bill Block (03:04):
Well, to become a relatively successful agent or first and have a client base.
Kevin Goetz (03:08):
Did you have clients that you started?
Bill Block (03:09):
Yes. So I was at ICM at the time and motion picture literary agent, Sam Raimi, Steve Hopkins, Herbert Ross, very importantly Walter Parkes, and Larry Lasker. Uh, Neil Israel and Pat Proft who were big writers. Walter Parkes. Walter Parkes, yes. So I'd sold War Games, do you know, at the time. And so that launched me as an agent.
Kevin Goetz (03:33):
So were you always a literary agent?
Bill Block (03:34):
Always a literary agent. But yeah, at the time, in one year I'd kind of been behind Police Academy and War Games.
Kevin Goetz (03:39):
You are that odd kind of combination in a great way of financially responsible and creatively daring. Did you always have that creative bone in your body?
Bill Block (03:52):
Kevin, it's just reading.
Kevin Goetz (03:54):
It's not just reading.
Bill Block (03:55):
It is. Not a lot of people read or like to read or do the reading. Probably took an early good lesson that the way to grow as an agent, to quote Sue Mengers, was to never be somebody's first agent, Bill. She said to me.
Kevin Goetz (04:11):
Wow.
Bill Block (04:11):
Yeah. She said, I signed Barbra Streisand in Funny Girl, which says it all. She's a star then. Then Sue Mengers signs her. She didn't discover Barbra Streisand.
Kevin Goetz (04:23):
So, a great story is Tommy Mapother was discovered by one of my best friends in the world, Lorraine Galley at the time. Now Lorraine Ruffo, they went to Glen Ridge High School together in New Jersey. It's Tom Cruise, by the way. But Lorraine was a professional actress already. And she brought Tom to meet her manager, Toby Gibson. I guess Tom was doing Guys and Dolls in the school play. He was on the wrestling team and she said, Tom, you should meet my manager. And she got him either Taps or Endless Love, that first role. And then Toby's nephew stole from his Aunt, Tom Cruise and then Paula Wagner came in and the rest is history. So I understand what you're saying. And Sue Mengers, that was good advice. What was she like by the way?
Bill Block (05:13):
A double lesson. A passionate advocate. And for newer entrants like myself and the business who had more of a financing, accounting, legal, potentially approached negotiations that backend never interested her that much.
Kevin Goetz (05:31):
Because she was just fearless.
Bill Block (05:32):
Fearless front end.
Kevin Goetz (05:34):
I'll kill for my clients.
Bill Block (05:35):
I'll kill for my clients. But a great packager.
Kevin Goetz (05:38):
Who would you say would be the most significant agents of the last say, 50 years? Mike Ovitz, Sue Mengers and Jeff Berg. Jeff Berg. Yeah.
Bill Block (05:50):
Ari.
Kevin Goetz (05:51):
And now Ari. Well, and Bryan Lourd.
Bill Block (05:54):
Yes. And Bryan Lourd.
Kevin Goetz (05:55):
Right?
Bill Block (05:55):
Yes.
Kevin Goetz (05:56):
Wow.
Bill Block (05:57):
Well, I mean that that tree, I mean, you start with Wasserman.
Kevin Goetz (06:02):
That's right.
Bill Block (06:02):
So, I was a student of his.
Kevin Goetz (06:04):
Right. That's William Morris.
Bill Block (06:06):
And people we've forgotten. Ted Ashley Taf Schreiber, and of course Sonny Werblin who ran MCA television and then became a sports mogul.
Kevin Goetz (06:14):
Wow. So you came up in that era. So you start your own agency that's got, you need a bunch of chutzpah and maybe money for that. How'd you do it at 30 something?
Bill Block (06:25):
Well, there was a technological shift at the time. So Mac, the small computer became available and it was clear to me then, and others, information needed to be gathered at the studio level by 30 or 40 covering agents. Whoa. And you know, in talking to my then future partners, David Greenblatt and Judy Hofflund, we thought we could do this.
Kevin Goetz (06:50):
Is that who you started the agency with?
Bill Block (06:52):
Yes.
Kevin Goetz (06:52):
It was called Inter Talent?
Bill Block (06:53):
Inter Talent. Yeah.
Kevin Goetz (06:54):
Yeah. Wow. And then ICM bought it.
Bill Block (06:57):
Yes.
Kevin Goetz (06:57):
Wow. Yeah. Incredible. Now, your first foray really into coming on the scene as a businessman was really the acquisition of Live Entertainment from…
Bill Block (07:12):
Yes. It was a public company.
Kevin Goetz (07:13):
Menendez.
Bill Block (07:14):
Yes. Well, he had passed away. He had been murdered. It was a Roger Burling kind of a officer in charge of the library asset. It was a public company. It was the video arm of Carolco. And…
Kevin Goetz (07:29):
Is that how Live began as the video arm of Carolco?
Bill Block (07:31):
Yes. It was spun off this public company.
Kevin Goetz (07:33):
Which is Mario Kassar and Andy Vajna. Yes. Now, hold on, I got to ask you this. So you come in with Bain Capital Yep. And you form Artisan. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>, one of your first movies that you take is a movie that even Jason Blum admitted when he was head of acquisitions or worked in acquisitions for Harvey Weinstein passed on, which was the Blair Witch Project. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. Why did you take a risk on it? How did you justify that? And what did you see in that? Because it was this first of its kind in this found footage genre, and it sort of changed the landscape of independent film.
Bill Block (08:09):
There's a little bit of a history to those kind of passes. You are reminding me, uh, the Paul Hogan smash hit, Crocodile Dundee was passed on by everybody 'cause what happens is you're seeing the opportunity alone, either on a video cassette, you know, studio executives are, look at Ell Dundee, two of them, you know, at the time alone, while they're doing other things, there's no audience. I had the good fortune. I had not seen Blair Witch. So everybody had seen it before they passed on it. And just before my pass, there was, so the attendance at the midnight screening…
Kevin Goetz (08:48):
Where was it? At Sundance.
Bill Block (08:49):
At Sundance, was minimal. Decisions had already been made. And so to then see it with that audience with John Hegeman right next to me was, we looked at each other about 20 minutes in, I think I had the note someplace and said, isn't this good?
Kevin Goetz (09:05):
Wow.
Bill Block (09:06):
We went outside and then one other buyer walked out. It was a lengthy start. Two others were passing in the lobby. And we looked at each other and Phil Raskind, who was the agent, was walking out, head down a little bit on the street, no auction. And we went up to him and said, we like this one.
Kevin Goetz (09:30):
Oh my Lord.
Bill Block (09:32):
We want to make a deal. We want to make a deal now.
Kevin Goetz (09:36):
What'd you pay for it?
Bill Block (09:38):
1 million for the world.
Kevin Goetz (09:39):
And kickers, bonuses.
Bill Block (09:42):
Yes. They had a, they had a fair backend.
Kevin Goetz (09:43):
So they had it. Oh yes. So they made out.
Bill Block (09:45):
Yes, they did. Very important to me about artist accounting.
Kevin Goetz (09:48):
The people that are fair in this business, I find last the longest and are the most light clearly because they play by the rules.
Bill Block (09:57):
You know, do you know what the secret to studio Hollywood accounting is? Never recognize a revenue. Always recognize an expense.
Kevin Goetz (10:06):
Yeah, I know. That's not good. No. Well, it's good for the studios.
Bill Block (10:10):
Good for the studio to hold onto the cash and yes, delay payment.
Kevin Goetz (10:12):
What was the ultimate gross of that franchise?
Bill Block (10:14):
Uh, several hundred million.
Kevin Goetz (10:15):
Oh my Lord. From a conversation walking on the main street of Sundance. Yeah, yeah. And saying, we want to do a deal now here's a million bucks world.
Bill Block (10:24):
Yeah.
Kevin Goetz (10:25):
What happened to Artisan again?
Bill Block (10:27):
It had an interesting exit opportunity. So, Blair Witch Project opens in July, 1999 against the Julia Roberts Richard Gere picture.
Kevin Goetz (10:38):
Yes. Runaway bride.
Bill Block (10:39):
Yes, I think so. And with AAP and a spend of about 4 million. And does, I don't forget, they, you know, when I got the Saturday morning, they said, okay, it did 10. I said, okay. Not a bad weekend. No, it did 10 Friday night. Uh, so it did.
Kevin Goetz (10:56):
I know more than that. Did it beat out?
Bill Block (10:58):
So it did. It did. Close to, it did 25 plus. And so the revolutionary aftermath was, and this is where John Hegeman deserves enormous credit. Well, we don't need to do television buying. You know, the internet is now going to change everything. And Artisan’s at the forefront of it too. Wow. So an internet campaign can open a picture.
Kevin Goetz (11:20):
And John always was really visionary in that respect.
Bill Block (11:23):
Visionary and ahead of the curve on that.
Kevin Goetz (11:25):
Absolutely. Yes. And he got a lot of shit for it too, by the way, in the early days. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>.
Bill Block (11:30):
He opened that movie with less than 5 million to a mid-twenties gross.
Kevin Goetz (11:36):
Wow.
Bill Block (11:37):
Aberrational.
Kevin Goetz (11:38):
Well, but I just want to say for those listening, my, in my company, there are five movies that no one is allowed to mention when we talk about comps. And the Blair Witch Project is one of them. Paranormal Activity is another. They defied what the research said. Yeah. And so everyone likes to pull those out. Right. I even said Straight Outta Compton because it was not expected to cross over to the general population like it did.
Bill Block (12:06):
Donna Langley, daring. Uh, geez.
Kevin Goetz (12:08):
Just so talented. Yes. Wonderful executive. But there's a couple of others. My Big Fat Greek Wedding is another one.
Bill Block (12:15):
I've got another thing. Blair Witch, interesting anti-research story too. That taught me a great lesson. What was that? We do the first research screening in Long Island and it goes badly. 30 walkouts. Wow. Now you know how unusual that is.
Kevin Goetz (12:30):
Oh, very, very bad.
Bill Block (12:31):
One of the people involved in it, very much against the acquisition of it just rubbing their hands in glee. And so what I have to do is take this research to heart, which is the audience wants an explanatory ending. I gather the filmmakers say, we have to reshoot this ending. Wow. You've got to say what the heck happened here. They can't end up levitating in a corner.
Kevin Goetz (12:56):
And we did that in Paranormal Activity by the way as well.
Bill Block (12:59):
We reshoot it and Eduardo and the two filmmakers, you're making a mistake, Bill. Don't do this, don't do this. Don't do this. We're doing it. Reshoot it. Write it. We reshoot it, we retest it and it does better. No walkouts better with an explanatory ending. And then they go to the mat with me. You're really making a mistake. You're really, really making…
Kevin Goetz (13:29):
After seeing the better test?
Bill Block (13:30):
Yes. You're really making a mistake here. And they were so surface and I kind of could not convince them after three days. And because the financial stakes were low, too, I did not want to go this early on Artisan against filmmakers like this in post, which was somebody else in the independent world named HW, who was notorious for…
Kevin Goetz (14:00):
Harvey Scissorhands.
Bill Block (14:02):
For post-production directives. They were completely right. And Hegeman actually deserves great credit 'cause he put that positioning card at the top. So he put that in, which helped, you know, explain, I forget what it was. Something like this. This, you're making me think of something 25 years ago. But that was him. The ending worked. They bought it. The rest is history.
Kevin Goetz (14:25):
Now, do you regret it?
Bill Block (14:26):
No, they were right. The filmmakers were right. But I back this, that's really aberrational too.
Kevin Goetz (14:33):
Well, hold on listeners. Please know that there's a dance that almost all of my guests, if not every one of them, have done with the audience. Bill Block has been a tremendous advocate of the audience. He has listened to them, he honors them. And he truly will not do a project or won't defer to a filmmaker if the audience at large is saying something to the contrary. And I say this to so many of you out there regularly, which is, you know, avoid the audience at your own peril. And you really do understand and appreciate research. Let's talk about a couple of things in our life together where you have used research in a way that really benefited the property or gave you the confidence in the green light. Can you give me a?
Bill Block (15:37):
Halloween was huge and that's you. Thank you. I've always given you great guidance credit for that.
Kevin Goetz (15:44):
Let's talk about that.
Bill Block (15:44):
Alright. So I get the job at Miramax and the first possible project sitting there is, well, what should we do with Halloween? And I talked to you about it and it's been done 14 times.
Kevin Goetz (15:58):
Was it truly 14 times?
Bill Block (15:59):
14. No, it was 14 times. And Bob Weinstein had taken it to the depths of direct to video. Can you even do anything? And Jason had developed it.
Kevin Goetz (16:09):
Jason Blum.
Bill Block (16:10):
Yep. And then kind of went to you, and you should fill this in here 'cause the decision was Kevin, should we do this or not? That was because it would be my first green light.
Kevin Goetz (16:19):
And I had run research for you on what we call a capability test.
Bill Block (16:23):
And the Jamie Lee Curtis data came up.
Kevin Goetz (16:26):
Yes.
Bill Block (16:26):
Where did that come up?
Kevin Goetz (16:26):
It came up in that test. I ran it with and without Jamie Lee Curtis. And I think it was David Gordon Green as director. There were other elements that were already attached to it. I absolutely said this movie should be made. On a Sunday morning, the phone rings and it's Jason Blum and Charles and maybe Cooper. And they said, hold on, we want to get Bill Block on the line as well. And we got Bill Block on the line. So now we've got a three-way conversation going. And we need to make a decision on Jamie Lee right now. I think she wanted, uh, several million dollars. And uh, and I said, pay the lady.
Bill Block (17:08):
Indeed. And you were quite correct.
Kevin Goetz (17:11):
I said, pay the lady, because Jamie Lee's involvement in that project was the key to Yes. Bringing it back to what really elevated the property then. Yes. And there was no question in my mind, the research was that clear. And even when you say that with the research being clear, you know, you're putting yourself on the line and there's financial. Yeah. You know, and it worked out, I imagine quite well. Oh my God, God. I know she made a good deal for herself.
Bill Block (17:37):
But no three terrific huge hits.
Kevin Goetz (17:39):
And she's extraordinary in it. And you reinvented a franchise. Yeah. So kudos to all of you. Yeah. But you used research.
Bill Block (17:46):
Well, kudos. Well kudos to Jason. Jason, and her, and Cooper. Those guys really ran it. And David Gordon Green, they did a fantastic job. Yeah.
Kevin Goetz (17:51):
It was a wonderful partnership. Yeah. And now a cut to another movie that I know you used research on in a very positive way was Fury. Yeah. With Brad Pitt. Because it was a movie you were not sure about making, if I recall right.
Bill Block (18:07):
Well, I'm always artist focused. So when I talked first had the conversation with David Ayer, who I had been pursuing to get in business with at a party. I said, what do you really, really want to do? I'll do that. 'cause he was so sought after for assignments. And he said, well, what I really want to do is a World War II tank movie. And I'm saying to myself, well, I have no idea. And I look at him and say, well that's brilliant. We're doing it <laugh>. You have to listen to the artist.
Kevin Goetz (18:35):
Absolutely. That's why I say the creative is, so you don't just read books. You have tremendous EQ and you really understand and appreciate not only the audience, but the artistry of the filmmaking as well.
Bill Block (18:49):
The writer-director.
Kevin Goetz (18:50):
But Bill, that's where the beauty of your talents really blossoms, is that you do have both parts of those brains. Very unusual.
Bill Block (19:00):
Well, I don't know. Thank you. But then he did it. He spec-ed it and he gave it to me first. It was a perfect script. I was going to make it. 104 pages, there wasn't a change to be made. He wrote a brilliant shooting draft and…
Kevin Goetz (19:14):
He was directing it?
Bill Block (19:14):
He was just, I bought it that day after I finished reading it. And then the rest came together.
Kevin Goetz (19:22):
Well, so we did a test on it. Yep. And it came back really strong in two of the four quadrants, males under 25 or 30, I forgot how we broke it then. And males over 25 and 30. But females were not on board with it, either of them. And actually that's what drove the movie. The Male audience really drove that movie. Yeah. And it makes intuitive sense when you talk about a World War II tank movie. I thought the movie was terrific. Yeah, I really did. Yes. But women ultimately came with men 'cause it came, it became a compromise movie. But if you didn't have those two quadrants as strongly as you did, I might have given you a different sort of interpretation or advice.
Bill Block (20:08):
Do you want to 'cause these are the fights one, you know, has gentle fights about. But you know, they're not winnable. So you don't.
Kevin Goetz (20:15):
I've taken you on a couple of times.
Bill Block (20:16):
You know, I'm talking about, so Brad dies in the end.
Kevin Goetz (20:19):
Yeah. Spoiler. Yes. I should have said that before.
Bill Block (20:23):
Yes. We never quite like that. We don't like Brad Pitt dying in the end of the movie. However, it is congruent. It is sacrificial. It's, and it, it's…
Kevin Goetz (20:33):
It's the right ending.
Bill Block (20:34):
It is the right ending. Yeah.
Kevin Goetz (20:35):
Totally. Totally. Yeah. Let's go to more recently, the Miramax days. You had an incredible, as you said, run, but opportunity to do so many things. And one of the things I know you're most proud of is The Holdovers, which I got to work on and to test. I just think Alexander Payne is a genius. He's such a talented filmmaker. Yeah. And I remember coming out into the lobby and you're looking at me. Yes. And I just, I think I just gave you a thumbs up. And I said, wow. And that's the genius of what I get to do, where I see movies.
Bill Block (21:15):
That it was theatrical.
Kevin Goetz (21:17):
I absolutely thought so. Even though it was.
Bill Block (21:19):
That was the stomach in the throat. Yes.
Kevin Goetz (21:23):
But it's an Alexander Payne movie who has such a clear vision, such beauty in his filmmaking. And I think I've worked on every one of his movies.
Bill Block (21:34):
It's quite in depth and emotionally nuanced.
Kevin Goetz (21:39):
Why did you say yes to it? Was it because of Alexander?
Bill Block (21:41):
That was a yes the minute I put it down. Oh wow. The minute I finished it, I went to a boarding school like that. And so it struck a number of personal chords and it was brilliant. And it was him. Wow. And i credit Rogue and CAA for making it happen for us because several of the studios wanted it.
Kevin Goetz (22:03):
Well, when we come back, we're going to talk to Bill about some future projects. There's two in particular that I want to bring up. We'll be back in a moment.
Announcer (22:14):
Get a glimpse into a secret part of Hollywood that few are aware of and that filmmakers rarely talk about in the new book Audienceology by Kevin Goetz. Each chapter is filled with never-before-revealed inside stories and interviews from famous studio chiefs, directors, producers, and movie stars, bringing the art and science of audienceology into focus. Audienceology, How Moviegoers Shape the Films We Love, from Tiller Press at Simon and Schuster. Available now.
Kevin Goetz (22:46):
We're back with Bill Block. Bill, thank you again for sharing so much of your past with me and our listeners. I always like to look at the future and towards the future. And you have a couple of things that are coming out. One of them is a project called Here, directed by Bob Zemeckis starring Tom Hanks and Robin Wright. Correct? Correct. It is a truly unique idea, but also way of shooting. Yes. Can you tell us about it?
Bill Block (23:14):
Well, it's shot in a locked-off camera. One camera. No movement, in one set.
Kevin Goetz (23:23):
Oh my Lord.
Bill Block (23:24):
So that was the pushback against it, that there wouldn't be close ups, there wouldn't be camera movement in it. How would this play?
Kevin Goetz (23:42):
It's total trust in Bob Zemeckis, right?
Bill Block (23:44):
Yes. But that trust is ratified by Bob in a simple conversation with him that few had, where he explained the movement, the mise en scene, the dissolves and visual effects and time shifts.
Kevin Goetz (24:05):
It starts like in the prehistoric age?
Bill Block (24:08):
It does.
Kevin Goetz (24:10):
And it goes all the way up to today.
Bill Block (24:13):
Yes. And the future.
Kevin Goetz (24:15):
So, I mean, what a crazy cool concept.
Bill Block (24:18):
The bottom line is, you see the movie, you don't even think about it.
Kevin Goetz (24:22):
Oh my Lord. Was it hard to finance that movie?
Bill Block (24:26):
Uh, it was a, um, it was a controversial green light. Uh, it was, uh, a because…
Kevin Goetz (24:33):
Of that convention.
Bill Block (24:35):
You know, everybody had passed.
Kevin Goetz (24:37):
Wow. Let me ask you this. What was the most tough financial package that you've ever put together? Challenging to get the parts working. The inter-party agreements. The international piecing together.
Bill Block (24:54):
Oliver Stone’s W.
Kevin Goetz (24:56):
Oh, that was you? Yes. Wow. Yes. Too controversial.
Bill Block (25:01):
It was coming up in the election year. Oliver had a balanced view of George W. I mean, he'd gone to school with him. He knew him. So that, but that was a stretch 'cause he's a brilliant filmmaker. By the way, I call him Roger Clemens. I've never seen anybody operate quite like him. He threw a no-hitter. He started the picture in April and delivered it before the election and just was flawless in terms of his shooting and post.
Kevin Goetz (25:28):
What was one of your easier financing deals to put together?
Bill Block (25:32):
Uh, Jason Statham action picture is of course just something that…
Kevin Goetz (25:37):
When he plays in his wheelhouse.
Bill Block (25:39):
Yes. Great demand for it. Great demand for it internationally and domestically.
Kevin Goetz (25:44):
And then I know Bad Moms was a bit of a difficult project. Yes. It seems so easy. I thought you were going to say Bad Moms at first. Yeah. But it was not that easy to put together. No. Tell us about that.
Bill Block (25:57):
I was fortunate to option and get the script, you know, myself and begin packaging it at QED. But no distributor wanted it.
Kevin Goetz (26:06):
Such a cool concept.
Bill Block (26:07):
Except, I know everybody passed.
Kevin Goetz (26:09):
The name, just the name alone. Right.
Bill Block (26:11):
Well I have a, you know, a theory about that. It's executive subjectivity. You know, you're at a studio. I didn't develop it. This is a financed movie. I'm picking it up. I don't want to give it distribution. So if you go in the front door through production.
Kevin Goetz (26:27):
So did you package it before STX picked it up?
Bill Block (26:30):
Yes. I had an original package putting it together with a well-known producer and star. And that fell apart. And then it was back to ground zero. The female actresses passed, six all passed, who were of age. And somebody who was perhaps too young to play a mother at the time, Mila Kunis, was brilliantly perfect for it.
Kevin Goetz (26:53):
She's so good.
Bill Block (26:54):
She's so good.
Kevin Goetz (26:55):
You ever see Friends with Benefits?
Bill Block (26:58):
Yes. Man.
Kevin Goetz (26:58):
She's good.
Bill Block (26:59):
She's a talent.
Kevin Goetz (27:00):
You know, she's in a movie right now that is looking for distribution. By the time this airs, it probably will have found it. And it was directed by Nancy Meyers’ daughter. And it is a beautiful film starring Michael Keaton and Mila Kunis about a father who has a second family now and has disengaged from his first family and his wife leaves him and he's now thrust in having to take care of two little children. And Mila plays his daughter.
Bill Block (27:34):
From the first?
Kevin Goetz (27:35):
From the first marriage. And it's so meaningful. I cried at the end.
Bill Block (27:39):
And no distribution. Here's what happens. They're going to watch on a link and not make decision. You have to see it with an audience to know. It's really interesting that lacuna of avoiding that. I don't get it. We've done this each time. What did you do? You did something for me. I remember down the Soho screening room, which you know, in New York, what picture was it? One of our…
Kevin Goetz (28:05):
John Tuturo maybe?
Bill Block (28:05):
Yes. Fading Gigolo. Especially you're entering post.
Kevin Goetz (28:09):
That was the Crosby Street.
Bill Block (28:10):
Yes. Yes. The Crosby Street Theater.
Kevin Goetz (28:13):
You know.
Bill Block (28:14):
God, what did they think? And you were always so good. First, we're going to the core, Bill. Let's see, does it work for the core? That's right. So we'll take it to the Crosby Street Theater. This is where it's got to work. If it doesn't work here, <laugh>.
Kevin Goetz (28:24):
If it doesn't work here, we’re fucked.
Bill Block (28:25):
Yes.
Kevin Goetz (28:26):
Essentially. Yes. And also that's right from there. Let's cut it for the core. So this is a lesson in, just in terms of screenings in general. If you have a movie that is playing really well with a secondary or tertiary audience, but you know intuitively what your core is. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. You want to then make changes to try to get your core on board. But if you have secondary and tertiary audiences who are not scoring it as well as your core, you want to be careful to not take away from your core.
Bill Block (29:01):
But take me outta the Meyers’ picture. It fascinates me. So here you've got a wonderful completed picture. You've tested it. I presume, I won't ask to…
Kevin Goetz (29:08):
I personally didn't test it, but it was tested and it tested extraordinarily high.
Bill Block (29:12):
So how does this, the problem this contracted us? I know.
Kevin Goetz (29:15):
I mean I don't know the answer to that and I think it's what you said. Yeah. When you yourself, let's talk candidly here about Old Dads. Yes. I mean Old Dads, which thank God Netflix stepped in and did it. But at first they didn't step in. You had to sort of go back to them a couple of times.
Bill Block (29:31):
Well Ari Manuel had to go back to them.
Kevin Goetz (29:32):
Wow. Well tell us about that. Because again, a terrific picture starring…
Bill Block (29:38):
And it tested to a theatrical level basically. And we couldn't get.
Kevin Goetz (29:43):
Starring comedian Bill Burr. Bill Burr has a huge following and fills arenas around the country. And that, when I heard that information from you, I started to dig further and do more research to find out, wow, he's really big in these red states and middle of the country.
Bill Block (30:05):
And by the way, they're paying $75 for those concerts. 60,000 sold out. So I did that data run. It didn't make sense. A million people paid $75, don't you think maybe more than that of half of them will pay $7.50 or 10 bucks.
Kevin Goetz (30:25):
You wanted originally, I know to go theatrical and I was on the fence with that because…
Bill Block (30:31):
Every streamer passed.
Kevin Goetz (30:31):
No, because then you're talking about having to invest another, you know, 15, 20, 25, $30 million.
Bill Block (30:38):
Which you get back first plus a distribution fee.
Kevin Goetz (30:40):
Well if the movie does well enough.
Bill Block (30:44):
Gets past 15 bucks. Exactly.
Kevin Goetz (30:46):
But I wasn't sure about that at the moment. So I was, but I definitely could not understand how a streamer wouldn’t take it. Which again, hearkens back to the Meyers’ picture, it was more of a streamer. Why would a streamer not take that? It was as good as so many movies that I work on. I get to work on so many of the streaming movies. It just, that's where it gets confusing for me because it's gotten so hard for people to make independent films and then get them sold. Yes. Have you found a sea change or have you found any change since let's say QED to leaving Miramax? So we're talking about a span of what, 10 years at least, right? In that, what did you see in that 10-year change in the acquisition market?
Bill Block (31:38):
Well, you had to reach the apex of content making during COVID and streaming flips where there was demand from the streamers for ready-to-go, made content by third parties. The Netflix Q1 22 earnings miss was the real sea change. 'cause that was the…
Kevin Goetz (32:03):
We can't recklessly spend.
Bill Block (32:05):
Subscriber growth had reached its peak and was declining. So the total addressable market was kind of fulfilled. Also, they built up internally.
Kevin Goetz (32:14):
I would say it was growing less.
Bill Block (32:15):
Growing less.
Kevin Goetz (32:16):
Because it was still growing. And yet also there was a…
Bill Block (32:20):
They reported that was the first decline.
Kevin Goetz (32:21):
That was also before they did the password protection.
Bill Block (32:24):
To go after it and ad supported.
Kevin Goetz (32:27):
But you're right, it was definitely a tipping point. Yeah. In the American market. Yeah.
Bill Block (32:32):
Apple, Amazon, these are global acquisitions too. And Netflix.
Kevin Goetz (32:36):
You have to sell worldwide.
Bill Block (32:39):
Very rare that you divide it. Right. It happens, but rare.
Kevin Goetz (32:42):
But that was also in the early days. And then all the streamers want.
Bill Block (32:46):
And Then yhey have their own internal production development departments. They're spending 10 plus billion in content internally. So they're not looking to reward a third party license, hence. And they have to pay that plus cost plus. So they're paying the negative cost too. You're better shot. And the real shot is theatrical. That is what is left actually. Wow. The international market is there for it. Okay, let's go. And the profitability is there.
Kevin Goetz (33:12):
Well there's no question about it. And I know Tom Rothman has said this repeatedly to me, which is you create a zeitgeist effect when you go theatrical because you're spending money essentially at the very least, making people aware of something. Yes. In a very big way. In a very short time. And so that makes your property whatever it is more valuable or certainly more people are more aware of it.
Bill Block (33:39):
The next window to pay one window. Exactly. Now, which is down from, that was the other, I mean exhibition to hold on to 90 days for so long too.
Kevin Goetz (33:47):
Yeah. I was with one of the heads of AMC theaters yesterday for coffee and I said, you know, windowing is going to change, but also are you guys going to be getting in like they did with the Taylor Swift movie into the production business more? There has always been this wall between distribution and exhibition. And I said, you know, the wall really doesn't need to exist anymore.
Bill Block (34:10):
It's no justice department and back on that anymore.
Kevin Goetz (34:13):
I don't think it needs. Well that's for sure. But I was just saying even this understanding between, that's your space. This is our space. We don't cross spaces, but the world is so complicated now and difficult. Alright. So how would you put a movie like Fury, the one with David Ayers together? Like, so you hear something that you know is innately really difficult. Did you have Brad Pitt at the time? No. So you knew you'd had to get Brad Pitt.
Bill Block (34:44):
But that script was so brilliant. Yeah. But it was going to get…
Kevin Goetz (34:48):
Buyers are going to buy a brilliant script?
Bill Block (34:50):
No, you package it first. So you get Brad first.
Kevin Goetz (34:53):
That's what I mean. Yeah. If you didn't have Brad, would you have been able to put that together?
Bill Block (34:58):
Yes. 'cause I think you would've had four other of the top leading men.
Kevin Goetz (35:02):
But I'm saying you had to have a piece of talent.
Bill Block (35:04):
Yes you did. Yes you did.
Kevin Goetz (35:06):
You would never go out to the market without a piece of talent attached to it. Correct. So what else do you have coming out?
Bill Block (35:12):
So you have the Beekeeper sequel in development. That'll be hopefully next year. But here is the big one.
Kevin Goetz (35:17):
And tell us about your TV show, The Gentleman.
Bill Block (35:20):
Eight-episode series, which they will be renewing. And that's Guy Ritchie and Guy Ritchie's world. And Marc Helwig, who is the head of television.
Kevin Goetz (35:28):
You're an executive producer on that?
Bill Block (35:30):
Yes. And Marc is the head of television at Miramax who really guided, sold, and developed, and supervised this too.
Kevin Goetz (35:39):
So we can exploit your brain here, your finance brain. A lot of young filmmakers listen to the podcast, and I would love to give them a sense of if they have something today, what is the path forward? And I know the answer is, depends on the project as a first step. But what is the typical trajectory? If you have something that has teeth that you think could be theatrical, where do you go?
Bill Block (36:10):
You go to, you know, someone like myself or Jonathan Groffman at MRC. I think he's doing a brilliant job too. Or A24 'cause theatrical has to be, you said it last night, it's got to be excellent. You were saying somebody's going, Well my, oh my. Why didn't my movie test? Well I guess you didn't say them 'cause it wasn't very good.
Kevin Goetz (36:34):
I wouldn't even say that. It wasn't good enough enough. Because the bar has gotten higher and higher. Yes. Than it's ever been. But I do want to go back though, Bill to…
Bill Block (36:43):
So how does somebody do it? Price.
Kevin Goetz (36:44):
How does someone do it?
Bill Block (36:45):
You look at a financing equation is what are your international presales estimate? What is your tax credit estimate? What then is the remaining equity needed to hit your budget?
Kevin Goetz (37:00):
And who pays for that?
Bill Block (37:01):
And who pays? Well that last budget, well let's going to call it that gap.
Kevin Goetz (37:06):
Is it mezzanine funding that gap?
Bill Block (37:08):
It's equity is,
Kevin Goetz (37:10):
So who does that middle equity gap?
Bill Block (37:12):
Third party equity financiers or somebody…
Kevin Goetz (37:15):
That's probably the most more riskier of the money.
Bill Block (37:17):
It is. Because that is dependent on box office results. If it's theatrical or it's dependent on a streamer flip to get its money back and its return.
Kevin Goetz (37:26):
Is there a world now where you enter a project and you're completely covered? I mean, to me that's the best solution would be selling.
Bill Block (37:36):
Rare. You could do it. But the stars who can do that, they're too well, they're very well represented. They're very well aware of that. They're not going to allow you to…
Kevin Goetz (37:46):
That's a very interesting fact. Yeah. So clearly a listener might say, well if I just go sell France, England, Japan, you know, cornerstone Germany and I get 40% of my budget covered, why don't you just go to the rest of the world and leave the US open? And the answer is because the agents, if you have a big piece of talent, won't allow it because they know that or they'll want a piece of that.
Bill Block (38:17):
Or you know, more money in it.
Kevin Goetz (38:19):
So I mean that American sale, right? Yes. Or US Canada. Correct.
Bill Block (38:23):
And their fees and deservedly so. You can't arbitrage completely a risk-free movie. Although I have one good story about it.
Kevin Goetz (38:32):
I was going to say, this I want to hear, there's only one that’s done. I want to hear that story.
Bill Block (38:35):
A risk-free arbitrage, which is all debt, by the way, I've tried to convince talent of that over the years too. Okay, here's somebody who's so smart. Cameron Diaz, Bad Teachers.
Kevin Goetz (38:45):
She made a fortune on that movie.
Bill Block (38:46):
Because she did it for scale. Todd Phillips on Hangover.
Kevin Goetz (38:50):
Wow.
Bill Block (38:51):
And on Joker. You're taking no fee and you're saying, okay, Mr. Studio Head Bill, yes. I want a first dollar backend. I'm not taking my 10 million. I'll bet on myself in the ups.
Bill Block (39:09):
Wow. Very few do that. Why don't they? Well, I'm going to tell you. So I was involved with some big stars. I sat down with some big stars and it's shown the model here. If we do this all debt, all debt, now you own a hundred percent of the backend. There's no equity. We're borrowing against presales and a tax credit. You subordinate your fee into this structure. Now this is a person who gets paid to start 10 to 20 million and kinda look at you and say, I know, I see that. I see if I hit this box, I'd make 30 to 50. I want my, I want my 20, I want my 20 now.
Kevin Goetz (39:42):
<laugh>. And then it's against.
Bill Block (39:43):
Well then it's it. You never, you rarely see that backend. Yes.
Kevin Goetz (39:47):
There’s a few of them, right?
Bill Block (39:47):
You takes outsized. Yeah.
Kevin Goetz (39:50):
I never understood why.
Bill Block (39:51):
That's why. They're now they're paid. It's, it's easier too. I'm paid 15. I don't want to risk that to maybe make nothing or make 30.
Kevin Goetz (40:01):
Right. You got to really believe in something. Yes.
Bill Block (40:05):
So you rarely see it happen.
Kevin Goetz (40:08):
And I love that accounting 'cause that's, if you're talking about first dollar gross, it's easy. Yes. It's so easy.
Bill Block (40:12):
Well look, look at Todd. I mean I just admire his acumen, his testicles, all of it. It's just.
Kevin Goetz (40:20):
I admire his testicles.
Bill Block (40:22):
I mean.
Kevin Goetz (40:22):
The size of his testicles.
Bill Block (40:23):
Yes.
Kevin Goetz (40:23):
He's wonderful.
Bill Block (40:25):
I mean loot at Joker. Oh my god. Oh lord. I mean, and so this is exactly the kind. Did you test that? It's dark, it's tough. It is. The New York I grew up in, this was the New York of the seventies. I mean, my God. It's like Taxi Driver.
Kevin Goetz (40:38):
Really Mean Streets. Yeah.
Bill Block (40:39):
And what an ending if you…
Kevin Goetz (40:41):
Don't tell us.
Bill Block (40:42):
Okay, but I.
Kevin Goetz (40:44):
We already gave one spoiler in this.
Bill Block (40:44):
It's all right. It's just like, so yeah, find a partner. Studio says, get in Braun, we need a partner, too. Don't you love those stories?
Kevin Goetz (40:53):
The way I characterized you and I introduced you was as forward thinking and effective. But forward thinking brings me to AI and I can't help thinking about AI. What do you think as we sort of end our conversation today, what do you think is the, is the AI world in five years, how does it affect our business?
Bill Block (41:19):
I think it's less than five years. I think it's two to three years.
Kevin Goetz (41:23):
And what is it? What happens?
Bill Block (41:24):
A complete reduction in costs. So the image generating capability, a text to image generation now is going to take an action picture. And this is going to be interesting for stars. I've talked to Jason about it a little bit. You're taking a $70 million Jason Statham picture that I project could do for maybe seven to 10, you know, within that time span. Because all the stunts and all the action should be, and I, you're going to see it in here by Metaphysic this fall generated the image generation at that cost where the star will only have to work for a week. The movie will get done in two weeks.
Kevin Goetz (42:10):
Oh my Lord.
Bill Block (42:11):
So you're going to see…
Kevin Goetz (42:12):
They could almost do it in a room like this now is what you're saying.
Bill Block (42:14):
Yes. You're going to I see that quicker. What's going to be also interesting too, the Netflix, the TikToks that ascertain audience demand now and fulfill content off that this instant image generating capability, you're going to say, well in a way, here's what I want and you're going to make it for me now. You're going to see some production costs come down, script costs come down, first drafts are generated in days to then get to work on.
Kevin Goetz (42:47):
I was just going to ask you if script, would you buy a script that was completely written by AI?
Bill Block (42:54):
Well, it's called passing the Turing test. And I believe now that an AI script would pass the Turing test, meaning the audience wouldn't know the difference.
Kevin Goetz (43:06):
Especially for programmers.
Bill Block (43:09):
Yes. On those. Especially for programmers.
Kevin Goetz (43:12):
Or on those networks that do like one type of genre picture.
Bill Block (43:13):
Right. Yeah.
Kevin Goetz (43:15):
Yeah. Wow. I mean I will refuse to believe that artistry, and I know you share this, artistry, and…
Bill Block (43:24):
Originality.
Kevin Goetz (43:26):
Originality. You know it's…
Bill Block (43:27):
Voice.
Kevin Goetz (43:28):
But I think what you say is it's about speeding up the process. And maybe if you have a problem that you can't solve in a particular area of a script, if you fed it with training data that was able to fix that.
Bill Block (43:43):
This is the fast thing. That would be amazing. You can feed it the training data. Give me Hemingway's voice.
Kevin Goetz (43:49):
Oh my God, it's so frightening.
Bill Block (43:50):
Yes.
Kevin Goetz (43:51):
Oh my God, I have to do a show or two on that. I'm going to think about how to get those right guests in here can speak about what is actually hap, as you said, what's actually possible right now. Because I think it's important for us to, you know, to go there even though it's a scary prospect.
Bill Block (44:11):
You should get Bob and Derek Hogue, I'm telling you here. So here, I'll leave it at this is, um, you are taking the, um, and this is what you need, the LLM of Robin Wright and Tom Hanks’ historical performances too. So they have that visual data from 30-plus years. The software is in camera and maps emotionally them at as teenagers to their performance now too. So, it is frightening in a way. I think we'll be seeing some deep fake stuff this election year too.
Kevin Goetz (44:58):
Oh yeah. The deep fake stuff. Wow. Bill Block. You're just one of my favorite people.
Bill Block (45:04):
And you too, sir. Love you. Thank you.
Kevin Goetz (45:06):
I love you very much and you're a terrific man. To our listeners, I hope you enjoyed our interview. I encourage you to check out many of Bill's films, including The Beekeeper, The Holdovers, and later this year, the film Here directed by Robert Zemeckis. For more filmmaking and audience testing stories, I invite you to check out my book, Audienceology, at Amazon or through my website at KevinGoetz360.com. You can also follow me on my social media @KevinGoetz360. Until then, I'm Kevin Goetz and to you, our listeners, I appreciate you being part of the movie-making process. Your opinions matter.
Host: Kevin Goetz
Guest: Bill Block
Producer: Kari Campano
Writers: Kevin Goetz, Darlene Hayman, and Kari Campano
