Podcast: Don't Kill the Messenger with Movie Research Expert Kevin Goetz
Guest: Entertainment & Media Consultant and Former CEO of IMAX Entertainment, Greg Foster
Interview Transcript:
Announcer: (00:02)
There's a little-known part of Hollywood that most people are not aware of known as the audience test preview. The recently released book, Audienceology, reveals this for the first time. Our podcast series, Don't Kill the Messenger, brings this book to life, taking a peek behind the curtain. And now, join author and entertainment research expert, Kevin Goetz.
Kevin Goetz (00:24):
When writing my book Audienceology, I used one, maybe two stories from each of the people I interviewed. My guest today is quite a storyteller and I actually used three of his stories in my book. In fact, one of those stories was about how Mel Brooks told him he would never work again in the industry because of test screening results that he once delivered. Well, ironically, Greg, who was then with MGM/UA, went on to become CEO of IMAX Entertainment. He is a brilliant business strategist with unbelievable brand research and distribution knowledge, and he catapulted IMAX from being a large format exhibitor known for its dazzling documentaries to being the number one premium movie experience in the world. Today, Greg owns and runs a successful entertainment media consulting firm, Foster and Crew. I'm so pleased to welcome, and you're in for a great chat, my friend Greg Foster. Thanks for joining me, Greg.
Greg Foster (01:32):
Thanks, Kev. Happy to be here. That's quite an intro. Wow.
Kevin Goetz (01:36):
Well, it's all true.
Greg Foster (01:37):
I have goosebumps <laugh>,
Kevin Goetz (01:38):
I could have gone on as you know, because first of all, I think alright, when do, how long do, when, when do we go back?
Greg Foster (01:45):
The eighties?
Kevin Goetz (01:46):
Yeah, late eighties.
Greg Foster (01:47):
Mid, mid to late eighties.
Kevin Goetz (01:48):
Yeah. Well I arrived in 86, 87, so that's when we met. And were you at MGM UA at that?
Greg Foster (01:54):
I was in MGM UA from June of 84 until the end of 98.
Kevin Goetz (02:03):
Okay. So tell us about the Mel Brook’s story, which incidentally was in those early years.
Greg Foster (02:08):
Yeah, yeah.
Kevin Goetz (02:10):
Spaceballs wasn't it?
Greg Foster (02:10):
It was Spaceballs. And I'll take the moniker of being a, a storyteller and do the story justice <laugh>. So I was working for a guy who you know very well, that was my first job out of college at, out of Georgetown, Perry Katz. He ran research and he left to run research at Universal. And about that time there was a change in the senior management at MGM. Frankie a Blondes who was the head of MGM was replaced by Alan Ladd Jr. Known as Laddie. I'm a brat of the business. My father was a very successful producer for many years.
Kevin Goetz (02:46):
Was he ever? Can I, can couple of titles please?
Greg Foster (02:49):
Uh, sure. McCabe and Mrs. Miller, Zoro, Short Circuit, tons of Steve McQueen movies, including The Getaway, lots of them, lots of John Carpenter movies.
Kevin Goetz (02:58):
So you really we're going to get to that 'cause you, you are a walking…
Greg Foster (03:01):
I'm a brat of the business.
Kevin Goetz (03:02):
But you're also a walking encyclopedia of Hollywood history. Correct. We'll talk about that. Go back to, uh, so Laddie is now in.
Greg Foster (03:09):
So Laddie is now in and full disclosure, as a brat of the business, I grew up with his kids, one of whom is particularly a dear friend of mine today, whose name is Kelly Anne. And, uh, who I adore, Kelly Anne Ladd and also her sisters I knew quite well, but Kelly and I were really good friends. And, and so Laddie comes in and by the way, he was very quiet and he sees that I'm there and he says, oh good, you'll do the research now. And I'm like, okay. He goes, no, no. What were you doing? I was like the third guy there. It was Perry, a guy named David Gross, who we both know. Yep. And me, and I was 22 years old when I started and when I was right out of college, three weeks out of Georgetown, I graduated in May and I started there in June.
Kevin Goetz (03:53):
Ain't nepotism grand?
Greg Foster (03:55):
And in those days it was <laugh>. It still is. Uh, but by the way, I would also tell you that it's osmosis, which is the beneficiary of the company. So there's no question that I got the job because my father was in the business and knew, was friends with Laddie. But there's also no question that my success at IMAX and also at MGM was because I learned as a young kid how to speak to filmmakers 'cause I was around them all the time. I built my IMAX business on relationships with studios. Absolutely. But really with directors.
Kevin Goetz (04:25):
Because you knew how to talk to talent.
Greg Foster (04:27):
I know how to talk especially to directors <laugh>.
Kevin Goetz (04:31):
So wait, the story.
Greg Foster (04:32):
So except for Mel Brooks…
Kevin Goetz (04:34):
I was going to say it is not necessarily about talking to the director the right way.
Greg Foster (04:37):
So, so Laddie comes on, I become the head of research, worked for a lovely, lovely man directly who was the head of marketing who just passed away by the name of Greg Morrison, who was a titan, fabulous guy. Hilarious. And so Laddie is cleaning up the film slate and it takes about a year for the older movies that he didn’t green light to kind of work their way through the system. But the first movie that he green lit was Spaceballs. Mel Brooks wrote the movie, directed the movie, starred in the movie, put it together. It was his production company. And it's the first movie that Laddie green lit at MGM UA and the movie's made. And it's been cut. Mel's had his 10 weeks Director's Guild cut. And we're going to have our first research screening to see what people think about the film. And they both, because they worked together so closely, Laddie and Mel Brooks at Fox when Laddie ran Fox and green lit and championed Mel with Young Frankenstein, the Elephant Man, which Mel Brooks produced, didn't direct or star in.
Kevin Goetz (05:48):
Because that was hysterical.
Greg Foster (05:49):
Yeah, not really. It was a gorgeous movie if you haven't seen it. Absolutely stunning movie, wasn't it in black and white? Yes, it was. Yeah. It also was so Young Frankenstein, Blazing Saddles, Silent Movie, all of the classic Mel Brooks’ comedies were mostly made under Laddie's watch. And Jay Canter’s watch, and Mike Hertzberg. That's right. Michael Herzberg.
Kevin Goetz (06:11):
Call out to Mike because he's my buddy at the tennis club.
Greg Foster (06:13):
So, what happened was we had this screening at their good luck charm, which was a theater in San Francisco. I can't remember the name, but I want to say the North Point. So it's my first time being in charge of a movie on the research side. So I'm shaking in my pants or something else that starts with an S and I go to meet Mel Brooks, who I've known my whole life because he's friends with my dad, but he hasn't seen me in probably 10 years and does not make any connection. So I give him my recommendation for the audience that we should bring in, how we should describe the movie, what the card should be.
Kevin Goetz (06:49):
Just a couple weeks before the screening.
Greg Foster (06:50):
Right. And he makes little notes, but he's, I'm his buddy. Way to go kid. Way to go kid that. That's perfect.
Kevin Goetz (06:55):
And NRG conducted the research?
Greg Foster (06:58):
No, the research was not conducted by NRG. The research was conducted by Lieberman Research. Correct. Got it. Because Laddie didn't use NRG. Got it, got it. That was not his research company of choice. So we go to San Francisco, I go the night before, spend that night 'cause it was film at that point. It's not digital. The movie's plattered, we do a run through.
Kevin Goetz (07:21):
Okay, hold on. For those <laugh>, for those of you of a certain age, movies used to be what we call unmarried prints, which meant that the sound and the picture existed on two different separate tracks. Two separate tracks. And that's how we did pre-screenings in those days.
Greg Foster (07:37):
And they had to be sunk up.
Kevin Goetz (07:38):
Exactly. So you'd often have breaks because it was pretty fragile. They were working with celluloid truly. And that was not an uncommon thing that happened. Go ahead, sorry.
Greg Foster (07:48):
So we have a test of it to make sure that it works. It works. It goes until probably one or two in the morning. This is during the week by the way. Not weekdays, weeknights, not on the weekend. And next day kind of getting excited. Because it was the first movie under this new regime, everybody from LA flew up for the screening. There must have been 50 people, executives, maybe even a board member or two. It was a big deal. And I'm there like three hours before the movie starts. The crowd that we had invited and had been pre-screened for meeting all the criteria starts coming in. Mel is there initially very, very happy. Tells me to sit next to him, which I do. And I thought that was a nice, nice honor. And he's, he's psyched. He's like, he's nervous energy, but he's excited.
Greg Foster (08:39):
His wife was there. May she rest in peace. Anne Bancroft and Laddie is like feeling really good. And the screening starts and for the first half an hour, 40 minutes, it's a, it's a, a full bedlam amount of laughing. Oh, it never stopped. It was just right out of the gate, right out of the gate. And then, and then at a certain point, it stopped and it didn't stop gradually, it just stopped. Oh Lord. And I would say by 50 minutes into it, there started to be some walkouts. There was a couple in front of us who obviously spoke English, but also spoke, I believe it was Mandarin, and started speaking to each other quite frequently in Mandarin, in front of Mel Brooks, who was not happy at all. And so he, at a certain point, like an hour and 15 minutes into the screening, which was probably close to two hours, he got up and kind of, you know, walked out and was pissed.
Greg Foster (09:40):
There's no other way of putting it. He didn't expect it. And he did what a lot of people would do is he blamed, he shot the messenger. Yeah. I was just going to ask you the name of my podcast buddy. He shot the messenger. Don't kill the messenger. So movie's over and we all walk out and I didn't say this, I'm under probation because I'm so young for this job. He gave you what, three months? I think it was more like six months. Okay. And, um, Laddie told you that? Yep. When he said, I gotta do this though, because you're, this is the first time you've had a leadership position and you are very young. I have to formally put you under probation. I said, okay. So at the end of the screening, we count the cards. Yep. Mel said he did not, breaking them into breaking quadrants, breaking 'em into the five categories under and over.
Greg Foster (10:25):
Excellent, very good, average, fair, poor. Right? We didn't do excellent. Very good, good, good, fair, poor. Because that was not symmetrical. We wanted to have it too positive, descending neutral and too negative. Descending. So we get to the time at the auditorium where I tell them what the, the kind of top two boxes were. The word of mouth. It wasn't horrible, but it wasn't great. And he expected it to be great. So ironically we had a dinner reservation at a Chinese restaurant in San Francisco, a place called Tommy Toes, I think is what it was called. It was famous and was really, really good. And I am literally in my pants because I have, I wanted to have this job permanently. I really enjoyed it. I'm a stats guy. That's part of what I studied at Georgetown. That's why I do kind of well in fantasy baseball and it's finance related.
Greg Foster (11:17):
I just, I like numbers. So you, you come in with the numbers now. So I stayed as far away from Mel Brooks as I possibly can. So far so good. And I sat at the third or fourth table 'cause there were a lot of people and didn't eat a thing. And the, the night's over and everyone gets up and I'm kind of, you know, shaking in my boots a little bit. And I go up to Mel Brooks very respectfully. And I say, Mr. Brooks, or I probably called him Mel, I am going to go back to the hotel and read the comments on the cards. What time would you like me to call you in the morning? And he said to me, young man, listen to me very carefully, don't call me tomorrow. Don't ever call me. And best of luck with your career. And as he said that, I was like embarrassed, scared, all of that.
Greg Foster (12:08):
Of course, Laddy hears it, walks over, takes the two of us aside. He's affectionate, Laddie, but he wasn't demonstratively affectionate. Puts his kind of arm around both of us. He's in the middle and he says, Greg, how long have I known you? And I said, probably my whole life Mel kind of looks at him like, that was weird. What do you mean your whole life? And he goes, Mel, how long have I known you? And Mel goes, I don't know, Laddie. 30 years, something like that. He said, so you both have to trust me. Mel, Greg's good at his work. I've been through a lot of other people's movies with him in the last year. This is the first one that's mine. He's going to go back to the hotel and read the cards. And when he's finished reading the cards, he'd like to call you.
Greg Foster (12:54):
What time would you like him to call you tomorrow? And Mel said, okay, okay. Uh, 10 o'clock in the morning. And Laddie said, Greg, will you please read the cards and call Mel first even before you call me at 10 o'clock in the morning? I said, I absolutely will. And I said, Mr. Brooks, I promise I will be honest and constructive and helpful because that's what I'm here to do. And Laddie then said, and by the way, I've told this story so many times where I've actually had tears. I'm, I'm, I don't think I'm going to today, but it was about the nicest thing businesswise anyone's ever done for me. <laugh>. He said to me in front of Mel Brooks, and with everyone listening and you're no longer on probation, you've earned this job. And that was a story. And I went on to work with Mel.
Kevin Goetz (13:41):
What was he like the next morning, Mel?
Greg Foster (13:43):
He went from a 10 of anger to kind of a five. And I wouldn't say it was anger, it was more I have a lot of work left to do. Yeah. And what ended up happening is the movie just had pacing issues. It was too much of a good thing. Spaceballs is…
Kevin Goetz (13:58):
You gotta know when to leave the party with those movies.
Greg Foster (14:00):
Spaceballs is still revered. It's probably, you know, in the old DVD Blu-ray days, it was probably so significant, and that day it was probably beta max too. It's, it's out of theater life kind of made it a classic in a way. And it was, it was more than fine.
Kevin Goetz (14:16):
I had a dinner the other night with David Zucker and we were talking about Naked Guns and remaking it now at Paramount, they have a very particular cadence. I want to move back in time a little bit to your dad, to your brother Gary, who I've worked with a number of times. Also a marvelous producer. And you have another brother as well, Tim.
Greg Foster (14:34):
Yep.
Kevin Goetz (14:35):
What was it like growing up? Where did you grow up? Actually?
Greg Foster (14:38):
So we grew up in, we grew up in Beverly Hills, flats, flats of Beverly Hills. Flats of Beverly Hills. We were not going to, in any way, again, I don't want to apologize, there's nothing I'm apologizing for.
Kevin Goetz (14:46):
Who were some of your classmates?
Greg Foster (14:48):
We grew up extremely privileged in Beverly Hills, which was like Mayberry, RFD when we were kids.
Kevin Goetz (14:54):
Absolutely. No gates on the houses. It was a, you could walk right up to Lucille Ball's house and Jack Benny's house.
Greg Foster (14:59):
All the time. Right. And we'd see them all the time. Jimmy Stewart. And they'd all say hello and everyone was nice.
Kevin Goetz (15:04):
What street were you on?
Greg Foster (15:05):
I was on Palm Drive. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. And which is sort of halfway between Doheny and the Beverly Hills Hotel. So five blocks, one way or the other. And it was, it was a fabulous place to grow up. Nothing's perfect, but it was pretty good. So my dad was a producer and the deal was if my dad made a movie that was out of town and he was gone for more than three weeks, we all went.
Kevin Goetz (15:27):
Mom didn't work outside the house. Correct?
Greg Foster (15:29):
Actually, she did. She was, she was, she did a lot of charity work and she also was very much my dad's social companion as my dad was trying to become a producer. He was a publicist before. Oh, he was. And he had a great publicity company that's, he represented Steve McQueen, he represented Jack Benny.
Kevin Goetz (15:46):
I just remember this big guy who was bald.
Greg Foster (15:50):
<laugh>. Yep. He was a, just like his son. So Steve McQueen said, you should be a producer. And he became a producer. The first movie he made was McCabe and Mrs. Miller, which is a fantastic movie on the, it's on the US Film Registry is one of the finest films ever made. And so he started making those movies, you know, feature movies that he direct that he produced. Late sixties, early seventies.
Kevin Goetz (16:10):
Do you remember Steve McQueen coming over?
Greg Foster (16:12):
I mean, and Steve McQueen was very much exactly. Was very much a part of, I'm friendly with Neil now part of, well if you mention me to Neil, she'll, she'll laugh. She's wonderful. Um, wonderful
Kevin Goetz (16:21):
Ingénue from musical theater.
Greg Foster (16:22):
Yeah. And my parents and my brothers. And I think a, a really scary story, which is very much discussed in Bob Evans's book, The Kid Stays in the Picture, was that Bob was the husband of Ali MacGraw. And my dad was producing Steve's movie The Getaway with Steve McQueen and Ali MacGraw. Absolutely. And they had a, a very passionate affair. And Bob Evans, who was at the time running Paramount, realized that something was going on and flew down to El Paso, Texas where the movie was being shot. We were all there. He flew in, in the Gulf Western Jet. My dad picked him up at the airport and my dad would not let him go to the hotel. And it's all in Bob Evans’s documentary and book. And they walked, my dad walked Bob Evans for the whole night around El Paso, Texas, would not let him into the hotel.
Greg Foster (17:13):
And he said at the end, he said, so you're not going to let me see her, right? And my dad said, yes, I'm not, it won't be good for any of us. And Bob Evans left and they did get divorced. And Steve McQueen and Ali MacGraw did get married. I think it was a volatile marriage 'cause pretty much everything with Steve McQueen was volatile, but they were married for a while and had a nice run. And at a certain point, my dad, after The Getaway was a pretty big hit, started submitting new scripts to the town. And the first script that he submitted to Paramount, to Bob Evans, there was, there's no email at the time, obviously, this is 73, 74 was returned to my dad return to sender. And until Bob Evans stopped being the head of Paramount Pictures…
Kevin Goetz (18:03):
You couldn’t make another picture there.
Greg Foster (18:03):
My dad was persona non grata. Wow. He was not allowed on the lot.
Kevin Goetz (18:08):
Now I remember your dad being extremely fair and kind. What did teach…
Greg Foster (18:12):
He was also tough.
Kevin Goetz (18:14):
Now, but to me he was always very nice and respectful and yeah, I mean, I was a pitcher working in the business and he was always, I thought elegant and kind.
Greg Foster (18:22):
First of all, my dad was very smart. He was the first person in his family to graduate.
Kevin Goetz (18:25):
Had three sons.
Greg Foster (18:26):
From college.
Kevin Goetz (18:27):
He saw, you and I are the same age. Yeah. You probably saw…
Greg Foster (18:29):
I think, I'm sure theres, I'm sure that's part of it. But I think he also, you know, my dad, he always included and coveted the next generation. He was really afraid of growing old. And in fact, as soon as my dad realized in his seventies, late seventies, maybe even early eighties 'cause the last movie my dad produced was The Fog. The second The Fog. He was probably in his early eighties at that point. And as soon as he realized that he wasn't making any more movies, his health immediately declined. He identified himself for his work. Doesn't mean he wasn't a good dad, doesn't mean he wasn't a good husband. Like, you know, he wasn't perfect, but we knew we were loved.
Kevin Goetz (19:16):
What did you learn from him? I'm talking about from the business.
Greg Foster (19:20):
So the thing I learned the most, no question about it, was how to talk to filmmakers, how to talk to editors, how to talk to directors, how to talk to producers. A little bit less about how to talk to writers, but very, very much how to talk to directors.
Kevin Goetz (19:35):
You also told, I remember from my book you talking about how Laddie always told you to start with the positive. Correct. Which I've learned early on as well.
Greg Foster (19:43):
Well, that was from the Mel Brooks think.
Kevin Goetz (19:44):
I know. I didn't want to I didn't want to…
Greg Foster (19:45):
Yeah, that was from the, because Mel Brooks. Yeah, I, the first thing I said about the cards is our numbers are just below average. That was the first thing I said.
Kevin Goetz (19:55):
And turned off immediately.
Greg Foster (19:56):
And he was immediately gone. That's correct. And, and I did learn that, start with the positive and especially if you can have two or three positives until you say, but there is still some work to be done.
Kevin Goetz (20:08):
Yeah. Listeners, it's important to know this because when you start with the positive and there's always something positive to find in a picture always, and you embellish on that a little bit, what you want to do is really find the superpower of what this movie is and lean into that a little bit and then say that said, the numbers are soft, so how can we get them up? That's the real question here. And I know you and I have share in so many.
Greg Foster (20:39):
Lots of stories.
Kevin Goetz (20:39):
Of those over the years. So I completely respect what you're saying.
Greg Foster (20:43):
So I, I should have started with that. I was 22, 23 years old. I learned, oh, actually I was 23. Then the other thing.
Kevin Goetz (20:50):
By the way, why did Bob Evans get pissed at your dad for doing what was right for the movie? Who knows? And he used it against him.
Greg Foster (20:57):
It doesn't matter. He just had to, they both had great careers. So the other thing that's really important I think is that, that my dad taught me was also the importance, and I try and make this, I still do it, of knowing people's names, knowing assistant’s names, husband's names, wives names, kids' names, et cetera. And I think that's really, really important. That was extremely important to me as I was building IMAX. We went from like 30 people, probably 40 people when I first started at IMAX Entertainment because as Kevin said, we had never made a Hollywood movie before. We had one that came out that we were kind of involved with. But that's a longer story that I hadn't, I didn't work there at the time called Fantasia 2000. Right. But in terms of real Hollywood movies, not redos, we had never done one before.
Kevin Goetz (21:51):
What was the first one that changed that paradigm?
Greg Foster (21:52):
The first one that we ever did was Apollo 13, seven years after the re-release of the original Apollo 13. But it was critical. It was critical because Richard, Ron Howard's picture? Correct. Ron Howard's movie starring Tom Hanks and Gary Sinise and a whole bunch of people directed by Ron Howard, produced by Brian Grazer and Ron. So it was also incredibly important because Richard Lovett, who runs CAA and has always been a big supporter of me and a friend, was the one who got us in to see Brian and Ron and Tom and that relationship between IMAX and that company. And those people became an anchor tenant of my first 10 years at IMAX. And the other reason why it was so good is because it was what we did space, right? We made movies about whales, bears, seals, and space as documentaries that played in museums, science centers, or aquariums.
Greg Foster (22:51):
So to get a movie like Apollo 13, which was so stunning and we tested it, we, we took about 20 minutes of the movie at Ron Howard's request and we put it through this proprietary process that we have called, I, I still say we, even though I work for seven other companies as a consultant, but IMAX will always be a we for me. And I love that they've let me still be a we for them. Call out to Rich. That's Rich. That's totally Rich, Rich Gelfond, completely Rich, who's I've never been closer to. He's never been as supportive of me as he is now. Real visionary. So we tested about 15 or 20 minutes and the part we tested was the takeoff of Apollo 13. And what was so brilliant about it is this technology that we had, what was it called? Do you remember? It's called DMR. DMR. Yes. And we have a fourth, fifth, sixth version of it. Of course you do. We always had thought that the, the big long master shots where you see everything, were going to be the most gorgeous, a vista in the Grand Canyon, the, the shot from space. But what we realized is the intimacy that it provided of a extreme closeup on the actress Kathleen Quinlan playing Mrs. Lovell, as you see the tears come down her face.
Kevin Goetz (24:16):
Knowing that she may never see her husband.
Greg Foster (24:17):
Knowing that she may never see him again. Took everyone's breath away in New York City at the Lincoln Square IMAX Theater, which is a massive screen. Wow. Ron was there, I think Tom Hanks was there.
Kevin Goetz (24:30):
It elevated the emotional experience.
Greg Foster (24:31):
I know Brian Grazer was there. Um, Michael Rosenberg probably Michael Rosenberg was a huge champion and still is of IMAX and, and of me. He's such a good guy. Michael Roseman,
Kevin Goetz (24:42):
He's a dear friend.
Greg Foster (24:44):
He's the best. I love that guy.
Kevin Goetz (24:46):
I wish I could persuade him to come on this podcast.
Greg Foster (24:47):
Oh he'd be great. But he's, he's too discreet. So what happened was we all basically started tearing up and I called Rich and said it couldn't have gone better. It could not have gone better. And Rich was based in New York, he just wasn't there 'cause it was just for a small group. Sure. By the way, a guy named Hugh Murray, who I worked with at IMAX for a long time was there and was kind of running point on the technology and also a guy named Lorne Orleans who worked very closely with Hugh. That's a great name. So shout out to them both two guys from Canada actually one's from Scotland and one's from Montreal, but they live in Toronto. And it was amazing. So it was all set up by Richard Lovett and then like, I dunno, like a month later there was this crazy press conference, but it was Universal you had to convince. It was universal, right? Mark Smugger was the guy who bought into it hook, line and sink.
Kevin Goetz (25:34):
Of course he did 'cause he gets it.
Greg Foster (25:35):
Could not have been more supportive. And so that was the first one and it didn't make a lot of money. It was released in 20 locations, most of which were still museums, science centers, aquariums.
Kevin Goetz (25:45):
But it was the beginning of a new era.
Greg Foster (25:46):
And we actually got huge pushback from certain exhibitors, cinema owners who didn't have IMAX and had no interest in IMAX coming into the business when we would be, 'cause in those days you had what was called clearance, meaning that if you were a theater that got all their movies from the studios, a new theater couldn't be built within a certain zone. But what happened was when we would go to a museum that had an IMAX theater and was half a block or five blocks away from a quote, proper movie theater, a commercial movie theater, the owners of the commercial movie theaters were not happy. Now obviously we know now they are the ones that have all the IMAX theaters. Absolutely. Because it created incremental business by saying, if you really want to see a movie, this is the way to do it. And but it was started on Apollo 13.
Kevin Goetz (26:47):
And I’d like to explore that. When we come back, we're going to talk about how Christopher Nolan really helped evolve the brand and how you got him. We'll be back in a moment.
Announcer (27:01):
Get a glimpse into a secret part of Hollywood that few are aware of and that filmmakers rarely talk about in the new book Audienceology by Kevin Goetz. Each chapter is filled with never-before-revealed inside stories and interviews from famous studio chiefs, directors, producers, and movie stars, bringing the art and science of audienceology into focus. Audienceology, How Moviegoers Shape the Films We Love, from Tiller Press at Simon and Schuster. Available now.
Kevin Goetz (27:33):
We're back with Greg Foster talking about IMAX and Greg, I wanted to get into Christopher Nolan and how he became such a supporter and really became a passionate advocate of the brand and that really did help evolve IMAX, can you tell us about it?
Greg Foster (27:52):
Yeah, I can. And you know, again, credit where credit is due. I wish I could say that it was something that, you know was my idea. It wasn't. When Warner Brothers came to me about Batman Begins in 2002, I would say. They said, we're making Batman Begins with a young filmmaker named Christopher Nolan. He's done Memento. I had not seen it.
Kevin Goetz (28:16):
Oh, I worked on it. It was really pretty amazing.
Greg Foster (28:18):
I had not seen the movie at the time, have seen it many times since, and it still baffles me, but it's incredible.
Kevin Goetz (28:25):
But that non-linear structure.
Greg Foster (28:26):
Well, but that's so cool. And that became Chris's, that's Chris's thing. I love it. Usually you catch up to it right around the beginning of the third act when what you saw in the beginning comes full circle and then you're, then you take it. So really the people that were responsible for that were, Chris obviously has a long history of affection for IMAX. He grew up mostly in Chicago. He went to the Chicago Museum of the Institute, Science Institute, whatever it's called, I can't remember. Growing up he was, is as technical a person as you can possibly be while at the same time having this incredible ability to tell a story and to evoke emotion in the story. He went to Warner Brothers and said, I want to do this movie with IMAX.
Kevin Goetz (29:10):
What did that mean at that point?
Greg Foster (29:12):
At that point it just meant…
Kevin Goetz (29:12):
Did you have your own cameras then?
Greg Foster (29:14):
No, we did, but he never used the cameras for that movie. The first movie he used the cameras for was the next movie he made in IMAX, which was this little movie called The Dark Knight. But Batman Begins, we did the test as usual, the people who really, really made the difference in making it happen besides obviously the great team at IMAX led by Rich, Brad Wexler was there too. But I think at that point, Rich had really become the head of the kind of the movie part of things. And the Warner Brothers guys were just incredible.
Kevin Goetz (29:45):
So who was running distribution then? Was it Dan?
Greg Foster (29:47):
Yes, Dan Feldman was running distribution at the time. And I actually think it's worth saying, Dan took advantage in a good way. Not in a bad way, in a very, very good way of IMAX making the distribution area have an exposure to filmmakers that it never really had before. Very few of the grosses, the box office, there was no computer box office at that time. What, what the distribution guys did is they would get a bag of grosses at their door, like a newspaper at six o'clock in the morning from EDI, yeah, on Saturday and Sunday and Monday.
Kevin Goetz (30:26):
This is before rentrack. Right. And then before comScore.
Greg Foster (30:29):
Which ultimately, and you know, a lot of them lived in, in, you know, Simi Valley or, or you, Agora Hills. Agora Hills and Calabasas and played golf a lot. And Dan Feldman wanted to be much more involved in the process. And I think he gets a lot of credit for the distribution group at all studios having a much deeper relationship with directors and producers, but particularly directors. So anyway, Dan was a big support supporter, as was his number two, my buddy and actually my brother Jeff Goldstein. It all started really with Alan Horn, who chose to support us from the very, very beginning when he was running Warner Brothers. And then when he went to be in charge of running the studio at Walt Disney Studios. But it really, Warner Brothers, there would be no IMAX of IMAX as it is today if it weren't for Warner Brothers. From Mark Solomon in post-production to Steve Papazian, who was physical production to Steve Spira, who was the head business affairs person to my dear friend Don Tobin, who at the time ran marketing.
Kevin Goetz (31:37):
It was a real, they all bought into it.
Greg Foster (31:38):
Suzanne Fritz who was in publicity and was really young at the time and, and, and very much involved in Chris and Emma. She was their person for a long, long time at Warner Brothers. And it was really incredible. On the outside, the two people who really supported us from day one and continue to support IMAX and also are dear, dear friends of mine. One is Dan Aloni Chris's agent and the other is Michael Shankman, Chris's longtime lawyer. And they bought into IMAX from day one too. So I would say Batman Begins maybe with the exception of Polar Express, were the two most important early movies that IMAX had.
Kevin Goetz (32:23):
And how much of the box office would you say, was it up to that 12% of the total box, US box office?
Greg Foster (32:29):
It probably was close to it, but the difference is we didn't have nearly as many theaters because it was all film-based. But the film-based per screen average, meaning the 70 millimeter, 15 70 15 perforations per frame on a 70 millimeter frame of film as opposed to traditional 70 millimeter, which is really 5 70 perforations on a 70 millimeter frame.
Kevin Goetz (32:58):
And regular film is 24.
Greg Foster (33:00):
But it's not 70 millimeter, it's 35. Yeah, exactly. So you get so much more image. So Chris came over and Emma and, and we talked and, and it was an easy, easy decision.
Kevin Goetz (33:13):
IMAX doesn't own brick and mortar by the way. IMAX owns the cameras, the equipment and the in theater equipment to project, but also is it both picture and sound?
Greg Foster (33:23):
Yes, yes. We only do IMAX sound. They only do IMAX sound. I keep saying we, but like I said, that's never going to stop and I'm proud that it's never going to stop. So it just was a whole new.
Kevin Goetz (33:36):
And then suddenly everyone wanted it.
Greg Foster (33:38):
World first, but there was more to it. So I think, uh, two other people who also get a huge amount of credit for the Chris Nolan relationship are David and Patricia Keighley, who have worked at IMAX longer than anyone. They're still at IMAX. David and Patricia used to run post-production. They've kind of evolved now into being technical ambassadors and relationship ambassadors. But they have a fabulous relationship with Chris and Emma and they deserve to, because first of all, it's interesting that Chris and Emma are husband and wife and work together and David and Patricia are husband and wife and work together and they kind of all speak the same language. They are, they take their filmmaking incredibly seriously. Their focus on detail is amazing. And that's the part I think with Chris more than anything else that I will say, Chris' attention to detail made us as a company and continues to make IMAX so much better because there is literally nothing that you can get by him. So if there's anything that's not right, I promise you, you don't have to point it out to him.
Kevin Goetz (34:49):
From a QC standpoint.
Greg Foster (34:50):
He will point it out to you. It's probably better that you do point it out because if you don't, he'll think you're trying to hide something. But he is a perfectionist.
Kevin Goetz (34:59):
And you've been loyal in return because if he needs screens, he gets the screens. How do you manage all of those movies who want to be on IMAX, particularly pre covid. Right. And now that we're coming back into a theatrical cadence, how does IMAX juggle everyone's relationship?
Greg Foster (35:16):
You know what, it's a combination of quantitative and qualitative. It's part of it is absolutely relationship based. I think we saw that a couple years ago with Mission Impossible and Maverick, which was kind of ironic and difficult because Tom Cruise is an incredible supporter of IMAX as well. But it's very, very difficult to do and it's especially difficult to do now that IMAX is doing 40, 50, 60, 70 movies a year globally. Where it became easier was when the network exploded, when IMAX developed a digital and then a laser projector because you can have more than one movie playing at a time because it wasn't these giant platters of film that you had to put on the giant IMAX projection system or use with the IMAX projection system.
Kevin Goetz (36:07):
And every one of the IMAX theaters is now equipped with that?
Greg Foster (36:10):
Every commercial one is. Yes. And some of them, I think there's still 30 to 35 that you can also throw it in the film-based systems, which Chris likes to do, and which end up generating four times the box office of non film-based IMAX prints.
Kevin Goetz (36:26):
Is there a saturation point you think with IMAX?
Greg Foster (36:28):
I don't think, I don't think it's there yet. There's a saturation point with everything.
Kevin Goetz (36:33):
Well what's so brilliant about IMAX was the in theater experience is experiential, right? And what IMAX did so cleverly was to capitalize on that and understand consumer behavior. And consumer behavior was about I want to see huge pictures and I want to hear great sound. Right. And those are the most key two elements that will get people to leave their homes. Right. So I would think that there's even a lot more opportunity for IMAX.
Greg Foster (37:01):
There is more opportunity. And the one thing IMAX doesn't do is put an IMAX theater across the street from another IMAX theater or put two or three IMAX screens in one complex. They work very, very hard to…
Kevin Goetz (37:14):
Paint the special nature of it.
Greg Foster (37:15):
Correct. The, the supply-demand issue is extremely important. If you, if you limit supply, your demand will go up. I wouldn't say IMAX limits the supply, they just don't flog it.
Kevin Goetz (37:27):
Well, let's face it, during Covid, I'm sure that scared the crap out of them because everything just closed.
Greg Foster (37:32):
Yeah. But IMAX was one of the few companies because it's asset-light and they don't own the real estate, they don't pay the rent. Right. So of course it hurt, it hurt everyone, but I think it probably…
Kevin Goetz (37:44):
Hurt them less, less than others.
Greg Foster (37:45):
Yeah. And I think IMAX at the end of the day, and I say this to everyone, and again, I haven't worked there in five years, is the big winner in the theatrical business. I don't think there's any question at all. No question that IMAX is the one that will ultimately ride this out until the very end. There's no question. And you, you're seeing and Rich is doing such a good job of running it and he hired a great head of marketing in Anne Globe, and Craig DeMel does a great job in marketing and distribution. The Keighleys are still there. It's just a very good brand with an excellent piece of technology that is, has become known as the kind of gold leaf of, you know, the Tiffany, if you will, of movie going. And people will leave their house and pay a little little bit more. That's right. To have an experience that you can't replicate anywhere else.
Kevin Goetz (38:38):
And that's really where theatrical is going. How do you create an experience? Greg, tell us about your consulting firm. The name of it is?
Greg Foster (38:47):
Name of it is Foster and Crew. I'm not going to talk about my clients because it's about them, but I have a very, very…
Kevin Goetz (38:54):
Seven clients right now. Right.
Greg Foster (38:55):
I have seven clients right now. And and many of them are, are brand names.
Kevin Goetz (38:59):
What do you do? What makes you so good at what you do? Like what do you provide? Is each, are each one of them a different service?
Greg Foster (39:04):
Each one. Each one's a little bit different. Each one's a little bit different. I, I kind of do three or four things. I connect people and I enjoy doing that. Enjoy. So if someone from Japan wants to meet someone from Korea, I can make that connection. I can also connect in town here. I am an expert, if you will, in the sort of distribution strategy world. And some people use me for that. International is always very, very important to me. And my old buddies from IMAX always emphasized that selling does not stop on the west coast and the east coast of North America. And the reality is that 60 to 70% of the box office comes from international. And we were very under underpenetrated in the international market and we focused on the US until we went digital. And once we went digital, we just exploded in the international market. And it has served the company extremely well. So I help international clients with their content and ideas outside of their territory. And I help US North American clients with their help with, with their business outside of the United States.
Kevin Goetz (40:19):
So that's one of the things you do.
Greg Foster (40:20):
I connect people, I help them with their distribution strategy. There's a company that I work for who makes a lot of really terrific movies, but is not a distributor. And so I help them and with many other people decide what makes the most sense. I don't work for IMAX, but I often am promoting a partnership with IMAX with my clients 'cause I think it's very, very important. Like I said, it's, it's not only because I worked there, it's because I really truly believe in IMAX. I also am very focused on kind of overall industry issues, on what's happening in the business on some of the scary things that are happening that I might have an early sense of just because I don't have to deal with the minutia any longer.
Kevin Goetz (41:05):
Because you typically work with the C-suite, you don't work in the tactical. I do not. You are always in the strategy.
Greg Foster (41:10):
That's correct. Yeah, that's correct.
Kevin Goetz (41:11):
What's your superpower?
Greg Foster (41:13):
My superpower I think is, that's a really good question. I would say at the end of the day, my superpower is melding my relationship skills with my strategy. And I put all of that kind of mostly into my ability to connect with filmmakers. And if I connect with a filmmaker, that gives me a much better opportunity with the company that I work for. And it also gives me an opportunity to potentially help the director get what they want. Because in my opinion, while the studios are very busy paying for all these movies, there's 15 or 20 directors that matter more than they can pick any movie they want.
Kevin Goetz (42:00):
You're a mensch. And that's I think is one of your superpowers, if not your primary one. I mean, people depend on you because they genuinely like you, but you're trustworthy. Thank you. Your word is your bond. I have literally known you now, I'll choke up a little bit, for so long and you've been such a devoted and loyal friend beyond the business, not that you and I pal around that much together, although we sometimes time socialize, we sometimes do, but I'm saying I would feel like not even a bit hesitant to call you if I had any kind of business problem or even a personal problem. And I so appreciate that about you.
Greg Foster (42:39):
Thank you. Well, thank you though. You know, the last client that I signed with, and it's probably the last one I'm going to, 'cause I am maxed out right now.
Kevin Goetz (42:46):
Listen, high class problem, right?
Greg Foster (42:48):
It kind of emphasizes and I will say they're who they are because I, I don't think they'll have a problem with it. And if they do, I'll call you and ask you to cut it out. <laugh>. It's with a guy named Michael O'Leary who is the, the head of the National Association of Theater Owners. And the reason I decided to do it partially is because I really like Michael. And secondly, I'm a movie guy. I'm a theater guy, I'm a cinema guy. That's what I am, that is my focus. It's what I grew up with. It's what, when my kids were young, it wasn't a question of what we were going to do on a Friday or Saturday night. We knew we were going to all go to a movie. I wish that were the case with young families now. It doesn't seem to be quite the same, but I'm a movie guy and, and, and the theatrical experience is something that I personally love. I think it's a massive part of global culture. Many of the clients that I work for internationally not only make movies, but also own movie theater networks. And that's not a coincidence by the way. They're also often IMAX clients. So, that’s why.
Kevin Goetz (43:53):
You don't have your head in the clouds. You also know that streaming is in fact here to stay. You know, it's a practical and very important part of the culture. Can you speak of how you, how you work with some of your streaming clients versus a theatrical and how you, how you, how you grapple with that?
Greg Foster (44:11):
Well, on the client side, none of my clients are only streaming and I don't really work on streaming for my clients. I work on the theatrical side. I'm not an expert at it and I'm not knocking it, I just don't want to be, I'm a cinema guy. But there is no question that things are changing. And I'm the last person who will say that I saw it coming to the extent that it did. I think Covid exacerbated it.
Kevin Goetz (44:36):
It did. It didn't create it, but it exacerbated it.
Greg Foster (44:37):
For sure. But I think it was, I think had it already started. Absolutely. And I think what we've learned nevertheless, is that when you have a movie that's worth the theatrical experience, regardless of the size of it, if it demonstrates somehow some way people will enjoy this best in a movie theater, it's going to come out in a movie theater and it will play for as long as it plays and then it will eventually do even better when it's on the streaming.
Kevin Goetz (45:05):
Do you remember when I showed you that study? Pre covid? Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. I mean that was telling about why particularly Gen Zs were not going to the theaters as much because of the being digital natives. And it actually came to bear a lot sooner, as you said, than any of us had anticipated. Are you hopeful for the future, for theatrical movie going?
Greg Foster (45:28):
I am. I do think that the, the kind of one two gut punch of coming out of the Covid world and struggling for a bit and then having what happened last summer culminated culminating with Barb-enheimer and for the strikes to have then gone on for another four or five months, just was devastating. So devastating and so hard to take as someone who truly loves and lives the business. So I think we'll get through this year, but I think 2025 with the films being as big as they are, is the year where we're really going to start to see some tremendous growth in the box office. Because anyone who studies the slate, 2025 is off the charts. Yeah. And you can't find a space for a movie any longer. I know I've had to go through that a lot with some clients of mine in the last two or three months.
Kevin Goetz (46:36):
But this year, this year's going to be a bit of a bloodbath. Yeah. We may not even get to $8 billion. Is that fair?
Greg Foster (46:42):
It's, I think the strike has had a…
Kevin Goetz (46:44):
A hundred percent. At first, the Pandemic recovery effect. Pandemic recovery, and then Right. The strike.
Greg Foster (46:50):
With that said, it's always good to look ahead. Absolutely.
Kevin Goetz (46:55):
And I think you and I are both optimists.
Greg Foster (46:56):
And I think 2025 is a year that will, that will make people who love going to the movies very, very happy. Again, this, I'm doing this now from a technical point of view, when you can't find a date to release a movie, and you certainly can't find a date in 2025 to release a movie in IMAX, that's a good sign.
Kevin Goetz (47:20):
Greg Foster, we could talk forever, but I have to let you go because you have to get across town to one of your seven clients. Thank you so much for, for being here and for sharing your wisdom and some of your stories.
Greg Foster (47:34):
My pleasure. It was just as fun for me as it was for you and you're the best.
Kevin Goetz (47:37):
Thank you. To our listeners, I hope you enjoyed our interview with Greg Foster. For more filmmaking and audience testing stories, I invite you to check out my book, Audienceology, at Amazon or through my website at KevinGoetz360.com. You can also follow me on my social media @KevinGoetz360. Next time on Don't Kill the Messenger, I will welcome the dynamic director and producer McG. Until then, I'm Kevin Goetz and to you, our listeners, I appreciate you being part of the movie-making process. Your opinions matter.
Host: Kevin Goetz
Guest: Greg Foster
Producer: Kari Campano
Writers: Kevin Goetz, Darlene Hayman, and Kari Campano
