Podcast: Don't Kill the Messenger with Movie Research Expert Kevin Goetz 
Guest:  Academy Award Winning Film Editor William Goldenberg
Interview Transcript:

Announcer (00:02):

There's a little-known part of Hollywood that most people are not aware of known as the audience test preview. The recently released book, Audienceology reveals this for the first time. Our podcast series, Don't Kill the Messenger, brings this book to life, taking a peek behind the curtain. And now, join author and entertainment research expert Kevin Goetz.

Kevin Goetz (00:23):

And the Academy Award goes to William Goldenberg for Argo <laugh>. Applause, applause, applause, applause, applause. Oh my God. You won an Academy Award.

William Goldenberg (00:37):

<laugh>.

Kevin Goetz (00:38):

My guest today is the one and only William Goldenberg, who is one of the great editors working today. For those of you who don't know, an editor can really make or break a movie and editors bring a director's vision to life and turn hours of raw footage into a complete experience. You know, the film editor usually gets an assembly of the film. They select and cut the footage together, arranging that clear sequence and meaning of the unfolding of the story to achieve a certain sort of emotional context and provide emotional context. And they work frame by frame to ensure that the final product really achieves the desired impact. Mostly the director's vision, but really, I've seen stories and movies in my life that were really impacted by great editors. And you, Billy, are one of the greats. And I can't tell you how honored I am to have you here.

Kevin Goetz (01:38):

I mean, we've worked together on many of your movies and you've done over 30 movies and television programs over the years. And we went back to a movie called Alive about that plane incident when the, was it a soccer team? What was it? Rugby team. Yeah, rugby team went down in the Andes and in order to survive, they had to sort of eat each other. It's a true story, sadly, but it was a great experience working with you then. And of course you were an assistant on Arachnophobia and I worked on that. Must have been over 30 years ago. Anyway, thank you so much for being here. And welcome.

William Goldenberg (02:15):

Thank you. It's great to be here.

Kevin Goetz (02:17):

Tell me, Billy, what was it like hearing your name announced as the winner of the Academy Award? I mean, come on.

William Goldenberg (02:25):

It was probably the most nerve-wracking thing that's ever happened to me, aside from actually winning. I won the BAFTA that year after that year as well. And that was even more terrifying because I hadn't, I never stood in front of that many people in my life and public speaking, not being my forte. <laugh> I got up and it was early in the awards of the BAFTAs. I got up on stage and looked out at the London Opera House and almost fainted. You know, I mean, I was, wow, my heart, you could hear, I could feel my heart pounding and I could hear my voice, you know, because that little wavery thing that you do when you're nervous, <laugh>, and I made it through. So, at the Oscars, I promised myself if I won, I would not look at the audience. Like I focused on the microphone and the audience was out of focus to me so I wouldn't have to freak out or so I wouldn't freak out because, you know, all the famous, most famous stars are sitting in the front row. So I didn't want to flip, you know.

Kevin Goetz (03:18):

So did you think you were going to win?

William Goldenberg (03:19):

I actually thought I had a really good chance to win because I had already won the Ace Award, and I won the BAFTA Award, and I won many, if not all, of the critic's awards from around the country. I think I actually won every critic’s award that year.

Kevin Goetz (03:35):

It was a spectacularly cut film. It was a beautiful film. I mean, beautifully directed by Ben Affleck. But also the cutting of it. I mean, it was just, you know, I remember voting for you <laugh>. But what was the, what was the feeling like when you heard your name? Like, is it like the culmination of, you know, it's all of our dreams to win an Academy Award. I was thinking about it yesterday when the Nobels were announced for a couple of additional folks. I was thinking if I could win an Academy Award or a Nobel, which would I rather win? And it would be an Oscar.

William Goldenberg (04:09):

<laugh>. Well, you know, it was an out-of-body experience for sure. I mean when it's happening. It just seems like you're in a dream. You're sort of floating, you know? I remember it, but I actually have never gone back and watched it.

Kevin Goetz (04:23):

You never went back and watched footage of the show?

William Goldenberg (04:25):

Never watched the footage of the show of myself winning. I've seen myself up to the point where Sandra Bullock says William Goldenberg, and then I get to the stage and she hands me the Oscar, then I turn it off because I don't want to see myself speak so <laugh>

Kevin Goetz (04:36):

Oh.

William Goldenberg (04:36):

Or hear myself speak. So I've never, I've never actually seen my speech.

Kevin Goetz (04:40):

Did your wife kind of like push you forward?

William Goldenberg (04:42):

Well, you know, the funny thing is she was sitting right behind me because of the way they had us in this little box that was right next to the stage that they do now to save time for the walking up part. And, so when I, of course when I won, I turned around and hugged her. So when they showed me on television, the back of my head and my wife, who's much more, much, you know, better looking than me. So it was, you know, it was fine.

Kevin Goetz (05:03):

How has, does, has it changed your career at all?

William Goldenberg (05:06):

I think it did. I think it helped. It helped rate-wise, you know, how much money I get. And it helped, I think, with a little more recognition. I mean, it was a good year for me. I also got nominated for Zero Dark Thirty the same year. So I had two nominations that year or so.

Kevin Goetz (05:20):

Wait a minute, you would've been a double loser.

William Goldenberg (05:22):

Yes, I would've been.

Kevin Goetz (05:24):

I don't remember that. You were nominated for two in the same year?

William Goldenberg (05:27):

Yeah. Yeah.

Kevin Goetz (05:29):

Oh my gosh. Wow.

William Goldenberg (05:29):

It was pretty exciting. And I thought maybe I would cancel my own vote out, you know?

Kevin Goetz (05:33):

Oh, I would think you'd cancel yourself out.

William Goldenberg (05:34):

<laugh>. I think I'm the only one who's editor anyway, who's been nominated twice and won, I think it's happened a couple other times.

Kevin Goetz (05:43):

But, and then you were also once up against your mentor? Yes. The great Michael Kahn.

William Goldenberg (05:49):

I know that was, it was actually great.

Kevin Goetz (05:51):

What movie was that for?

William Goldenberg (05:52):

Lincoln.

Kevin Goetz (05:53):

He was. And

William Goldenberg (05:53):

You were? I was zero.

Kevin Goetz (05:55):

Oh, that was the year?

William Goldenberg (05:55):

Yeah, same year.

Kevin Goetz (05:57):

So what was he like when you won?

William Goldenberg (06:00):

He was, well, when I won, I didn't actually see him, but the nominees all spent a lot of time together because there's different dinners and parties and functions in the academy lunch. So you do get to see each other quite a bit. And so it was really fun to hang out with him. And there was no, it was just like love between us.

Kevin Goetz (06:18):

What did you learn from him?

William Goldenberg (06:20):

Everything.

Kevin Goetz (06:21):

<laugh> What does that mean though? What did you really learn?

William Goldenberg (06:24):

Yeah, I learned, the biggest lesson I learned from him, and I've told a lot of people this is, I learned how to take criticism.

Kevin Goetz (06:31):

Explain.

William Goldenberg (06:33):

Well, what happened when I was on Alive, I started out as the first assistant and then somewhere in the middle, he was like it's time for you to move up. And he was going to leave that show to do Jurassic Park and I was going to stay on. 

Kevin Goetz (06:44):

Oh, he started alive. You finished it?

William Goldenberg (06:46):

Yeah, I think he got us up to the director's cut, I think. I think it was around

Kevin Goetz (06:51):

Mm-hmm. <affirmative> and Frank Marshall, of course.

William Goldenberg (06:52):

Frank. Frank. Yeah. He was obviously on board with me moving up and Michael leaving.

Kevin Goetz (06:55):

That was a cabal. It was like Steven Spielberg and Frank and Kathy. And then you sort of became part of that, that group of them.

William Goldenberg (07:06):

Yeah. No, I mean, obviously not the same as Michael, you know?

Kevin Goetz (07:10):

No, but you know what I'm saying.

William Goldenberg (07:11):

Yeah.

Kevin Goetz (07:11):

But no, but that's a great beginning.

William Goldenberg (07:12):

Oh, it's fantastic. And I've remained close to Kathy and Frank for all this time. And I see them, you know, here and there.

Kevin Goetz (07:21):

So he taught you about criticism or taking criticism?

William Goldenberg (07:23):

What he did was, he gave me some scenes to cut on Alive, and I would cut them. And he was, this time we were cutting on a movieola and a cam not on a computer.

Kevin Goetz (07:31):

And explain what you had to do. You had to literally cut the film.

William Goldenberg (07:34):

He was cutting, you know, you made a work picture off the negative. A work print that you could cut and splice. And then when they finish all that, you go back and cut the negative to match the work picture. And then that's what they make the release.

Kevin Goetz (07:45):

And it was unmarried of course. Which, which was sound and picture were not even connected yet.

William Goldenberg (07:50):

Right. Yeah. So they would be, it would be a separate match.

Kevin Goetz (07:52):

Oh my God. Isn't that amazing? <laugh>, I thought we could talk about this as being part of sort of that whole transition in movie magic.

William Goldenberg (07:59):

It's funny how many people now, younger editors have just have no idea what I’m talking about.

Kevin Goetz (08:04):

Exactly.

William Goldenberg (08:06):

So anyway, so Michael would give me scenes to cut, and then I would show them to him, and he would take a grease pencil and make marks on them to make changes. You know, that's how you did it then. You'd be like, cut here, do this, do that.

Kevin Goetz (08:17):

Like, he'd actually write on the, on…

William Goldenberg (08:19):

The, uh, yeah, you'd draw on the film with a grease pencil and you could wipe it off with a little, little glove, you know, a little editing glove made of cotton. So with certain scenes he would, he would give them to me. I'd cut 'em, then I'd show it to him. He'd give me changes. I'd make the changes, show it to him again. He'd give me more changes, show it to him again, give me more changes. And then there were certain scenes like 5, 6, 7 times, and I was getting more changes. It never seemed to be getting better or from my point of view, I just kept getting notes, you know? So I thought, well, I just, I'm not doing it right. You know? So at one point I went to him and, and I said, I don't think that I have an aptitude for this because I keep making the changes and then you keep giving me more changes. Like, I don't think I'm ever going to get it right. And he said you don't understand. This has nothing to do with it. The scene's fine the way it is. And nothing to do with that. This has to do with you being able to take criticism and not reacting to it. Ooh. Or reacting in a positive way.

Kevin Goetz (09:16):

That's a mentor. 

William Goldenberg (09:17):

Yeah, that is a mentor. And I tell people this, young editors, young filmmakers, young, anything, writers, whatever, you know.

Kevin Goetz (09:23):

He was one of the nicest men. And I remember very complimentary of me early on and always requested me to work on his pictures.

William Goldenberg (09:31):

Well, we all do <laugh>.

Kevin Goetz (09:32):

Well, thank you for that. But I want to also ask you about your relationship with a film. When you accept a film, when you say, I'm going to take this assignment on, how long are you going to be on a picture typically?

William Goldenberg (09:49):

Probably eight months to a year.

Kevin Goetz (09:50):

So we are talking a big commitment. What gets you to say yes?

William Goldenberg (09:55):

Several things. I mean, the material ultimately is my guiding light. I mean, go with the best script, always the best script, always the best material. But then I have relationships with directors and luckily for me, the directors I have relationships do material that I'm attracted to. You know, like, if Ben Affleck has a movie, I'll do it. I mean, there's no way that I would ever say no.

Kevin Goetz (10:17):

And we, it is worth mentioning that you and I just shared an incredible experience. It was of the movie Air Jordan, which Ben directed, it's his latest movie which was one of the highest testing movies we've ever tested. And it was an extraordinary night. And that plane ride home <laugh> on Ben's plane was, was something to remember. It was just pure joy, wasn't it?

William Goldenberg (10:44):

It was one of those nights you keep saying to yourself, you only get a few of these in your career, so remember every second of it, because, you know, you do a lot of movies and some preview better than others. But when you have one like that, you just want…

Kevin Goetz (10:56):

It was just unanimous, unanimous love.

William Goldenberg (10:59):

Yeah. I mean, it was just…

Kevin Goetz (11:01):

Every group, every sort of demographic and psychographic group, because it transcended just age and gender. It was also ethnicity and race and socioeconomic. It just touched people in such a deep way. It is so good. And I'm thrilled to have worked on it. You have a relationship with a director from the beginning, or particularly speaking about a new director? I mean, how do you find your rhythm with a director?

William Goldenberg (11:33):

I usually let them dictate the rhythm. I mean, I'm comfortable working any way, I've done this for so long that I can work any way they want. Whether they want to just, you know, never come into the cutting room and just give me, watch stuff at home and give me changes and then see the whole movie or sit there every day, all day. I'm comfortable with it all. So I sort of let them dictate the rhythm, and I just try to make the editing room a comfortable place. It's their place, you know, it's their editing room. I just want to help them. I don't want to take over. I just want to help them get, achieve their vision. And I feel like I get along with people. I know it seems silly and simple to say, but I get along with people.

Kevin Goetz (12:11):

No, it doesn't feel silly at all. I have some real deep questions I've wanted to ask you. I wanted to ask every editor I work with, but I'm particularly interested in your response. So, often I'll see a picture when it's in the director's cut stage, minimum 10 weeks usually is the contract, right? And then we show it to at least a hundred people. And there's feedback. At that point, what's typically your vision of the movie? How much you realize, or how much are you in service of the director's vision at that point? In other words, when do you begin to really assert yourself?

William Goldenberg (12:50):

You know, my asserting myself really consists of trying to guide the director, you know, to try to get them to see the forest for the trees kind of thing. Like sometimes directors get so focused on the minutiae and they get so focused on not taking the criticism well, you know, not wanting to admit something doesn't work, you know?

Kevin Goetz (13:16):

Exactly. And so what do you do with that? I mean, do you wait until the screening happens and you say let the audience speak for me so I don't have to be that guy?

William Goldenberg (13:25):

Well, sometimes yes. I mean, because you know, you're not a hundred percent sure and the director gets a preview, you know, so it's,

Kevin Goetz (13:34):

You want to give her or him that time to have their vision shown.

William Goldenberg (13:39):

And even getting to that point, you know, I give them my opinion. I show them alternate versions of things. I try and, you know, do whatever I think is right for the film. They can either accept it or not accept it. I mean, they can use my ideas or not use my ideas. And then if I get, if we get like a lot of feedback from the preview that tells us one thing or another, and a lot of times you have to, as you know, you have to figure out what they mean and not what they say. Because a lot of times what audience, an audience may say, a hundred people may say the same thing, but it's not, that may not, may not be the problem. I mean, it may be something that's two scenes earlier. If they hate a certain scene, it's not set up right. So my job is to interpret those notes and sometimes directors can be really reluctant to start messing with their movie. They feel like there seems to be just this hard fix.

Kevin Goetz (14:31):

Digging in. Yeah.

William Goldenberg (14:32):

Digs in. And there's no, and it's sometimes conscious, sometimes they don't even know they're doing it.

Kevin Goetz (14:38):

Yeah. But what happens is, Billy, what I sense often is, so you do a preview, the director hears what you've been saying, and then they say, okay, we're going to make changes. This time the studio might say, well, we want these changes. And the director's still sort of battling it out, you know, the studio's sort of right. And so it's really hard. You've just lived in a editing room with someone for, you know, six, eight weeks or whatever it is. And we know how that relationship is. It's, it's very, very close and tight. And I've seen the most intimate relationships in the whole filmmaking process occur in that editing room.

William Goldenberg (15:15):

Yeah, pretty much so.

Kevin Goetz (15:16):

But you'll be the first person that's fired, if, not you personally, but the editor because they're not getting it when of course they do get it. And I've seen that time and time again where I've defended the editor and I said, you know what? You need to let the editor do their job. So whatever you say might be a good idea for you to have a conversation with the director and let them back off right now and just see what the editor comes back with before you go to that next move.

William Goldenberg (15:46):

I wish people would listen to you because I…

Kevin Goetz (15:48):

Actually, you know exactly what I say,

William Goldenberg (15:49):

Knock wood. And I've never been fired, but I live in fear of that every day.

Kevin Goetz (15:52):

But talk about what I just said, because you know, that that is a really prevalent sort of dynamic and I value editors probably more than any single creative influence on a movie. And I've seen horror stories and I've seen tremendous success stories based on great editors or not good editors, quite frankly.

William Goldenberg (16:16):

The way I approach it is, I mean, first I have, I work a long time to earn their trust. You know, I want them to trust me. So I try not to say things like, well, that'll never work. Because if it does, if it turns out that their idea that you said it'll never work, does work, then you've lost their trust. So I try and build that trust over the entire, you know, first cutting, the director's cut so that they, they know that I'm not going to bullshit them. They know that I am hopefully smart about story, smart about storytelling. So, I mean, if they're reluctant, then we get past the preview and it's not, it didn't go as well as we wanted. There are certain areas that clearly needs to be worked on, and they're reluctant to do it.

William Goldenberg (16:58):

What I'll do is, is I'll go do a version of all those changes. Because the wonderful thing about cutting on a computer, obviously, is that you can just do a million versions. And it doesn't, you know, in the old days in film, you can't do that. It's just, it's one work print. So I'll show them versions of things. So I know you don't want to make this change. I know you don't want, you know, you don't think they're right or whatever. Just take a look and see what you think about this. And they're like, ah, I still don't want to do it. Okay. And then I may come back to them in a couple of days and go, well just take one more look. You know? So Michael Kahn used to refer to it as the nudging style of changes. So no, instead of taking, I don't, I never like draw a line in the sand or yell at the director or get into a fight. You know what I mean?

Kevin Goetz (17:37):

You've never done that?

William Goldenberg (17:37):

Not really, no. I mean, I've thrown myself on the sword a couple of times with Michael Mann on Ali.

Kevin Goetz (17:44):

Oh, I was going to say on The Insider, or…

William Goldenberg (17:45):

No, no, on Ali. I really felt strongly about a couple, one scene he was taking out, actually two scenes he took out that I felt really strongly, certainly about one of them that he took out that I really wanted to leave in and certain things.

Kevin Goetz (17:58):

What happened?

William Goldenberg (17:59):

He, he listened to my pitch, you know, he, I gave him a hard…

Kevin Goetz (18:03):

It's in the movie?

William Goldenberg (18:04):

No, it's not in the movie,

Kevin Goetz (18:05):

<laugh>. He listened. Oh, he listened to your pitch.

William Goldenberg (18:06):

He listened to my pitch. And then he thought about it and considered it and left the scene out. But I felt like it was a scene that illustrated why Muhammad Ali, what makes, what separates a, a great champion or a great superstar from just like a really good, you know, what is that, what is that thing? What is the thing about wanting?

Kevin Goetz (18:25):

And what was his reason for wanting it out?

William Goldenberg (18:27):

Just think he felt like it flowed better. You know, he never really even gave me a reason. I think he just felt it was, it was in the dressing room right before the Foreman fight. There was a scene with him and with Ali and Angelo Dundee, where Ali was talking about how scared he was to fight Foreman. And then he, and he said that, you know, this guy might kill me. He goes and he said, looked at Dundee and said, you know what? I can't wait. You know? And that to me as an athlete, because I've played ice hockey my entire life, that's the difference. That's like Michael Jordan wants the ball.

Kevin Goetz (18:55):

You bet, you bet.

William Goldenberg (18:56):

With three seconds on the clock to take the final shot. And that's, you know, you know, he was terrified, Ali, but he couldn't wait to do it because that's what separates, to me, the superstar athletes from just the really good ones.

Kevin Goetz (19:10):

Ooh, that's really interesting.

Kevin Goetz (19:12):

But it's a great justification, you know, where you came from, but you were, you went on record and you were heard.

William Goldenberg (19:17):

Yeah, I mean, I can't, I mean, I can't make them, ultimately it's their move. And I say this to the director a lot. I mean, especially the ones who have the opportunity to, whether they have final cut or they have enough influence to release the movie they want to release.

Kevin Goetz (19:30):

You know, you talk about flow. Okay. And I want to ask, I have a theory, and it's a pretty general theory, but I'd like to get your sort of take on it. I always feel like the length of a movie is the product of, or the result of the DNA of the script and the directing, potentially directing style. Pace, however, I think is more about the editorial contribution. Length and pace are very different. And I've learned that throughout my career. Sometimes they are the same, or not at least the same, but they, I usually think length is a feeling. It feels too long. It feels too short. It's something, it's not a full meal if it's too short. And if it's too long, which many movies are, especially in light of the streamers who have given a lot more rope to directors and movies have become a lot more, I'll say masturbatory <laugh> or self-indulgent as a result. And the pace of movies, the cadence of a movie to me, is very much dictated by you. Can you comment on that?

William Goldenberg (20:54):

Well, yeah, I mean it is. When I say you, you or me, I say me, it's me and the director. I mean the director's a co-editor on the movie. I mean, unless the editor just sort of takes a backseat and is, you know, which doesn't happen very often, but, you know, pace is the most important thing to me. It's, you know, obviously besides the actual story you're telling, but you know, 

Kevin Goetz (21:18):

Pace is more almost engagement, isn't it?

William Goldenberg (21:21):

Yeah, well, I mean it’s…

Kevin Goetz (21:21):

Because I always like to disabuse people saying, because people, audience members will often say, it's too slow. It's too slow. But what they're really saying is it lacks.

William Goldenberg (21:29):

It lacks dynamic range.

Kevin Goetz (21:31):

Exactly. Or the engine has now kind of lost its momentum. You know, the push of the, of that engine is just not there.

William Goldenberg (21:39):

Yeah. I mean, you can't have every great moment that you shot can't be in the movie. You have to pick your spots where you're going to hang on something where you're going to like really let the audience, you know, sit with a character, sit with something, have that length, and then where do you want to go faster? Where do you want to slow down? And finding the right kind of dynamic range is what makes a movie, you know, pulls the audience along and, and you, and also lets the audience know, hey, you're in good hands with us. You know, we're going to, we're going to tell you when to go fast. We're going to tell you when we,

Kevin Goetz (22:08):

Well, that's why a great editor and you are a great editor, are almost the director's conscience in a way. And so I think that if you're not coming at it from a more objective standpoint, I think you're doing a disservice to the director. Because directors will put everything that they've shot on the screen typically is my, in my, at least in their first cut. I mean, it's often the case. There were some directors who really do see the movie in their heads and, and shoot it that way, et cetera. But there are others who really just fall in love with their own <laugh>, their own shooting. And you've, you've had both, I'm sure.

William Goldenberg (22:46):

Yes. At its best the director and editor relationship is one of those ones where you're both sort of checking each other, you know, where certainly Ben and I, because we've done, I, we've known each other for 15 years and this is our fourth movie. And, and we've also recut a couple of films together, <laugh> so we've worked a lot together. And I think, and I was commenting to him a couple of weeks ago on Gone Baby Gone, he used to call me the Length Police because I was always like, no, it's too long here, it's too this. I was always concentrating on amongst all the other things to make sure the movie wasn't too long. And I felt it was, and I kept pushing him and pushing him to make the movie shorter, which we got to a point where I think we were both happy. And then when we did Argo, he was the one who was like, it's gotta be shorter. It's gotta be shorter. And I, you know…

Kevin Goetz (23:31):

Do you read a script typically before they shoot a frame of film?

William Goldenberg (23:34):

Oh, sure. Like at least three, four times? Yeah.

Kevin Goetz (23:37):

Okay. So, so I don't know when they, you're not all always hired in the process that way because you've, there's movies you've taken over, et cetera.

William Goldenberg (23:43):

Yeah, but mostly I don't actually like taking over movies really. Sure. I mean, I've done it a few times and I, you know, it's, I mean, you need to.

Kevin Goetz (23:50):

So when you read the script, will you sometimes say, this scene and this scene really need to be more visual as opposed to, there are too many words here?

William Goldenberg (23:59):

I don’t. Sometimes. Generally I won't say that I'm going to just take the words out, you know, if I think I do. But I do read the scripts and always comment and take, I always comment on them from an editorial point of view.

Kevin Goetz (24:12):

Same with me. I think, I think like, I think you and I probably think very similarly because when I'm asked to read the script beforehand, I'll often say the audience is going to reject that they're going to, but you probably are.

William Goldenberg (24:22):

You've been doing it for such a long time, you can probably tell what the score is before the.

Kevin Goetz (24:26):

I sometimes can, but you know, some of it is really based on just extraordinary execution. In the case of, I remember Fight Club, I remember reading that script and just not getting the script <affirmative> and seeing the movie and thought it was sort of genius. It was something I said, that's why Fincher is such a

William Goldenberg (24:44):

Well, there are special filmmakers

Kevin Goetz (24:45):

Like that extraordinary, you know, execution driven filmmaker.

William Goldenberg (24:50):

You know, it's going to be more than the word on the page.

Kevin Goetz (24:52):

Exactly. You know?

William Goldenberg (24:53):

Um,

Kevin Goetz (24:54):

But do you sometimes find yourself giving notes beforehand saying that's not going to cut well or that's not going to play well or…

William Goldenberg (25:02):

Yeah, like there's, you know, you need to transition here or the, you know, the scene needs this scene should end here and start here because, you know, generally

Kevin Goetz (25:10):

But you know, you'll do that in the editing room.

William Goldenberg (25:12):

Yeah. And sometimes, like, I have a really great relationship with Paul Greengrass, who I've done two films with

Kevin Goetz (25:18):

And another super talented, unbelievable director.

William Goldenberg (25:19):

Yeah. I mean, and the sweetest guy and the smartest. I mean, he's just, I'm very lucky.

Kevin Goetz (25:23):

I don't know Paul, but I certainly respect him as a filmmaker.

William Goldenberg (25:26):

Wonderful guy. You'd love him. With him, I'm involved from the beginning of the writing process all the way from like, as soon as he does an outline, he shares it with me and we talk about that. And then he's got 40 pages. I read that and give him notes. Then, you know, all through the process there. Then I go to England because that's where he lives, for a couple of weeks, somewhere in the pre-production process to sit with him and go through the script like page by page by page. And give him all my notes. And he, he, you know, he'll address some, some he doesn't agree, won't do them. We, so we do that for two weeks. And then Paul generally does like a light rewrite the night before he shoots every scene. And I think this, it's a perfectionism thing also.

William Goldenberg (26:15):

I think he feels it makes the actors a little more on edge, a little more lively, you know, that they don't get settled with the material. He'll give me those pages. I'll give him notes the night of the morning of he's going to shoot it. And a lot of times he'll say, yeah, I say, you know, you can lose this pair of lines. Right, right. Yeah, sure. You know, I know. Or you can just start here. And he goes, yeah, I, I absolutely do that in the cutting room. I'd rather shoot it and have it. And sometimes I think he, he overshoots scenes because, I mean, I overshoot more dialogue than he might need because I think he, especially on shorter scenes, I think it lets the actors get into a flow better.

Kevin Goetz (26:53):

You know Billy, I've made about 12 movies in my life, television movies. And somebody said to me once, said, well, we need to do this or this from, you know, behind the scenes. And they said don't edit the movie in advance. And I'm like, what? I don't know any other way to do it.

William Goldenberg (27:14):

Don't edit in the camera, you mean.

Kevin Goetz (27:16):

Correct. What do you think about that? That's what I'm saying. Sorry. Don't edit the movie in the camera.

William Goldenberg (27:20):

Well, it depends on the director.

Kevin Goetz (27:22):

<laugh>. But what do you think about that? I was like, why not? Because I worked with Dan Petrie Sr. I produced the last movie that he directed called Wild Iris, which we were nominated for three Emmys and we won one. And Dan basically saw that movie in his head <affirmative> and was very economical with the way he shot. There was not a lot of footage, extra footage, I mean. Right. I could see he was in and out on a shot. I know Clint Eastwood directs this way as well. What's you're feeling about that?

William Goldenberg (27:57):

I feel like if a director has control of the medium and he's in control of the storytelling, he should absolutely do that.

Kevin Goetz (28:03):

What does editing inside the camera actually mean though?

William Goldenberg (28:06):

Well, it means, you're going to have a five-page dialogue scene, but you know, you're going to be in the master for the first two pages of that dialogue scene. So you shoot the master and don't shoot any coverage for the first two minutes. And then only start shooting the coverage. 

Kevin Goetz (28:19):

And then you go back and say, people are not interested. And then you're in trouble. I don't have coverage. I see <laugh>.

William Goldenberg (28:25):

Yeah, you know, Hitchcock shot, edited in the camera all the time. It seemed to work out, you know.

Kevin Goetz (28:32):

Yeah, I think it worked out pretty well for him.

William Goldenberg (28:34):

But other, you know, certain directors now, it's different now too. There's much more emphasis on a lot of coverage and a lot of cutting. And you don't really see movies like, I mean, obviously, I guess maybe in a Reto might cut in the camera, although I think he shoots a ton of film. So I don't really know.

Kevin Goetz (28:51):

How does a little Billy who's playing ice hockey <laugh> say one day I want to be an editor <laugh>?

William Goldenberg (29:03):

I didn't know what to do with my life. I loved the movies.

Kevin Goetz (29:06):

What was your first movie?

William Goldenberg (29:09):

Well, the first movie I remember loving is Cat Ballou.

Kevin Goetz (29:12):

Oh, I wonder mm-hmm.

William Goldenberg (29:14):

<affirmative> Not because of Jane Fonda, <laugh>, although I did love her. My family used to have a house in Atlantic City, New Jersey, and all the members of my family in one house, like 10, 12 bedrooms, every family, every cousin got a different bedroom.

Kevin Goetz (29:27):

A beach house?

William Goldenberg (29:28):

Yeah, like a half a block from the beach in actually outside of Atlantic City. And there was a movie theater.

Kevin Goetz (29:33):

I’m from Jersey, by the way.

William Goldenberg (29:33):

Oh, really? Yeah <laugh>. There was a movie theater that we all, all the adults would send the kids every time it rained we couldn't go to the beach, so they'd send us to the movies. So I would see, one summer I saw Cat Ballou probably seven times because it would play the whole summer <laugh>. So they go, okay, go. Here you go again. 

Kevin Goetz (29:50):

How old were you?

William Goldenberg (29:50):

Oh, I don't remember. I don't remember.

Kevin Goetz (29:52):

Well it had an influence on you. That's why I'm asking.

William Goldenberg (29:54):

I know. I loved it because I just thought it was so clever and so funny and had heart.

Kevin Goetz (29:59):

I bet you're going to tell me you notice things each time a little bit differently. Oh, of course. That's the reason you…

William Goldenberg (30:04):

And I just love the way. Do you, have you ever seen the movie?

Kevin Goetz (30:07):

Do you know I don't think I've ever seen it. I'm going to be honest.

William Goldenberg (30:09):

Well, the best part is, um,

Kevin Goetz (30:11):

But I remember the one sheet.

William Goldenberg (30:12):

Stubby Kaye…

Kevin Goetz (30:13):

And, and, and Jane is, you know, gorgeous.

William Goldenberg (30:15):

Yeah. Lee Marvin won best actor for that. Did he really? Yeah. He played two roles. He played a gun fighter named Kid Shelleen.

Kevin Goetz (30:21):

Best Supporting Actor. Best actor.

William Goldenberg (30:23):

He did. He played Kid Shelleen and his and his evil brother <laugh>. They’re both gun fighters.

Kevin Goetz (30:27):

Yeah. So anyway, so went back seven times.

William Goldenberg (30:29):

Yeah. So anyway, there's, there's, the best part of the movie is Stubby Kaye and Nat King Cole did a lot of the music and Nat King Cole is on the piano, stubby Kaye’s on the banjo. So you have this wild chase, you know, horse chase through the desert, in the old in the west, camera swish pans over and Stubby Kaye and Nat King Cole are in the desert playing and singing along. Yeah. And then swish pans back to the horses, you know. So it was like that kind of craziness. I mean I just thought it was so clever and, and so funny and I don't know, it just really stuck with me. Maybe, maybe because I saw it seven or eight times.

Kevin Goetz (31:04):

Who were some of your early, kind of, other than Michael being an actual mentor, who influenced you?

William Goldenberg (31:13):

Well, because I came to it late. I mean, I didn't, I think the influences I had were, I mean there was a film, there was a professor at film school that influenced me a lot.

Kevin Goetz (31:21):

So you went to film school?

William Goldenberg (31:22):

Yeah, I did. I went to film school at Temple University.

Kevin Goetz (31:25):

Oh, in Philly, Philadelphia. Yeah. So you went to, you go to Temple and you studied to be a...

William Goldenberg (31:30):

Well, I studied to be an editor.

Kevin Goetz (31:31):

Really? You did? What made you go into school thinking I want to be an editor?

William Goldenberg (31:34):

No, actually, well, I went into school wanting to be a doctor because that's what my father wanted me to be.

Kevin Goetz (31:37):

Then you didn't go to Hahnemann?

William Goldenberg (31:39):

No, no friend of mine did.

Kevin Goetz (31:40):

So my husband went there for a year. Then he dropped out. Yeah.

William Goldenberg (31:44):

<laugh>. So did my friend. You know, I was in pre-med. I hated it and didn't know what to do. And they happened to have a really world-class film school there. And my stepmother worked in the film business. She was in publicity for 20th Century Fox. And she said, well go to film school. I'll help you get a job and da da da. So I was like, well, okay, you know, I like the movies. And then I went to film school, like my, in my second year and I just…

Kevin Goetz (32:09):

And you declared editing?

William Goldenberg (32:11):

I did. No, not at first, but I just loved it. I just loved everything about it. And then I started just getting more and more into it.

Kevin Goetz (32:17):

Did you make movies as a kid or?

William Goldenberg (32:19):

Yeah, I did. Not very good ones.

Kevin Goetz (32:21):

Oh no. But like, Stephen, where do you see The Fabelmans?

William Goldenberg (32:24):

Oh, I hear it’s fantastic.

Kevin Goetz (32:24):

It's so good. It's so good.

William Goldenberg (32:26):

I didn't make movies like that. <laugh>, I made it, you know.

Kevin Goetz (32:29):

But he started just with this. Yeah. But he started... 

William Goldenberg (32:33):

He started when he was 8. I didn't do any of that. No, I was, I was too busy trying to be an athlete.

Kevin Goetz (32:36):

What was your, uh, <laugh> What was your student film?

William Goldenberg (32:41):

Oh,

Kevin Goetz (32:42):

The one you, your thesis, if you will.

William Goldenberg (32:44):

It was so embarrassing. It was about just this girl who was trying to get, you know, make it, she was like trying to, she was trying to make be like a carpenter furniture maker in a man's world. And the difficulties with that.

Kevin Goetz (32:59):

Did you get any, did you get seen by, did anyone contact you?

William Goldenberg (33:03):

No. No. Just at the film schools.

Kevin Goetz (33:04):

You know, typically the editors don't, by the way. The directors get the phone call.

William Goldenberg (33:08):

No, I would, I directed that as well. I mean, it wasn't.

Kevin Goetz (33:10):

Oh you did? Yeah. Yeah. Do you have to do that? Did you have to?

William Goldenberg (33:13):

Well, we did. I mean, yeah, I mean, I have a, you know, it's, I just have a Bachelor of Arts. I don't have a master's or anything, so I think if I had…

Kevin Goetz (33:21):

So you leave, you leave Philly, sorry, I interrupted you. You were going to say.

William Goldenberg (33:25):

As I went, I eventually took a class where I had a teacher named Ed Cornell, who was actually a Cal Arts teacher, was teaching at Temple that semester. And he encouraged me to be, he saw the work I did as an editor and encouraged me. He said, you're good at this. You have a knack for it. No one had ever said anything like that to me before, you know? Because no one in my family does anything creative. You know, though, I come, my family's in the deli business in Philly. Really? Yeah. Yeah. My father, my father had a deli.

Kevin Goetz (33:52):

Where? In Jersey? Or in Philly?

William Goldenberg (33:53):

Oh, yeah, in Society Hill in Philadelphia.

Kevin Goetz (33:55):

Did they own a deli?

William Goldenberg (33:56):

Yeah, my father did. Yeah. My parents were divorced.

Kevin Goetz (33:58):

Did you used to work in it?

William Goldenberg (34:00):

Yeah, yeah. Yeah. I can slice lox for the best of them. <laugh>. Yeah, I was a short order cook and a deli man.

Kevin Goetz (34:06):

And a shmear.

William Goldenberg (34:07):

Yes. I did a lot of schmearing

Kevin Goetz (34:09):

<laugh>. I did a lot of schmearing.

William Goldenberg (34:10):

So I came to LA with the idea of being an editor. And I was lucky enough, worked hard enough, smart enough, whatever it was to fall into the right group of people. And eventually I got…

Kevin Goetz (34:20):

So how did, don't gloss over that. How did you find the right group of people?

William Goldenberg (34:25):

Well, I got, how did I get my first job? I got a job as a, a gopher, you know, like a PA mm-hmm <affirmative> kind of thing through a roommate of mine. His father worked at a company called Hill/Mandelker Films. They used to do a show called Tucker's Witch with Tim Matheson and Catherine Hicks.

Kevin Goetz (34:40):

So you got a job as a runner?

William Goldenberg (34:43):

Yeah. I was like, below the PAs. I was, you know, I just ran script pages around.

Kevin Goetz (34:47):

And then what happened?

William Goldenberg (34:48):

And then they asked me if I wanted to be a PA on set for a television movie they were doing with Diane Cannon, Hart Bochner, and Barry Newman.

Kevin Goetz (34:58):

Oh, wow. And then what?

William Goldenberg (34:59):

And then they said, you want to be an on-set PA? And I said, is there any way I could be an apprentice editor?

Kevin Goetz (35:05):

Because you remembered liking it?

William Goldenberg (35:07):

Because I loved it. And I knew I wanted to be an editor, so I said, could I, is there any way I could be an apprentice editor? And they shockingly said yes. 

Kevin Goetz (35:14):

Um, wow, and It's all meant to be.

William Goldenberg (35:17):

No. I, yeah, <laugh> and I ended up working for an editor named John Wright, who cut Speed. He cut the first Speedmovie.

Kevin Goetz (35:25):

Yeah, I worked with him on that with Jan De Bont.

William Goldenberg (35:27):

Yeah. Hunt for Red October. He directed, he cut. And, and since he was, this was a television movie called High School USA. But Jan had cut a lot of features and he came and did this intelligent movie as a favor to the producers. So when he went back to the features they brought, they took me onto a feature with them.

Kevin Goetz (35:48):

And then how did you get to Arachnophobia?

William Goldenberg (35:50):

How did I get to Arachnophobia? I ended up working on a movie called Punchline.

Kevin Goetz (35:53):

Oh, with Tom Hanks? 

William Goldenberg (35:55):

Yeah. And Bruce Green was the editor.

Kevin Goetz (35:57):

Oh.

William Goldenberg (35:57):

Bruce, yeah. Yeah. <laugh>. And Bruce is a really good friend.

Kevin Goetz (36:02):

He was married to Bonnie, right? Greenberg?

William Goldenberg (36:04):

He was married, yeah. He's now married to Janet.

Kevin Goetz (36:06):

<laugh>. Right. I knew that. But I just saw Bonnie at breakfast. Oh really? Oh wow. They're still friends, I believe. Yeah.

William Goldenberg (36:11):

They have a daughter together.

Kevin Goetz (36:12):

Yeah, you're right. Right, right.

William Goldenberg (36:14):

Um,

Kevin Goetz (36:14):

Oh, it's so funny. Such an incestuous business, right?

William Goldenberg (36:19):

Well, Bruce was, Bruce had been Michael Kahn's assistant for years and years. So Michael was looking for a new first assistant, and Bruce said, this guy would be great. And I was, first I said no, I was so nervous about working for Michael. I was like, I don't know, because he had a rough reputation. And, I was nervous about doing that. And then I, so then I went and cut a movie for a friend of mine who was directing his first film. And it was a disaster. Not because of my work, although I don't know how good my work was. But because the movie was not <laugh> well written or directed <laugh> or acted for that matter. So then I realized there's, I can go the independent route, you know. I can hope that I should cut some small movie that somebody sees, like, you know, like Quentin Tarantino and Sally Menke hooked up at the Sundance Film Festival. Yes, she cut a thing for him. And that's a one, to me, I thought it seems like a one in a million shot. So the other, the other way was to go back and work for somebody like Michael and get somebody to mentor me.

Kevin Goetz (37:23):

That was really smart and prescient.

William Goldenberg (37:26):

I saw what it did for Bruce. Bruce hung in there as an assistant for years longer than some of his counterparts. But he was able to enter the feature world at a much higher level. So I thought that makes more sense to me. Then Michael asked me again to work as first assistant. So after I cut that movie, I went and was Michael's first assistant on Always, the Richard Dreyfus and Holly Hunter remake.

Kevin Goetz (37:54):

Steven though, right?

William Goldenberg (37:54):

Yeah. Steven Spielberg. Yeah.

Kevin Goetz (37:56):

What was it like working with him?

William Goldenberg (37:58):

Oh my God. Well, first of all, I started on that movie in the middle. The night of the first preview was one of my first days on the movie. Oh, wow. In fact, my first day on the movie they were on the scoring stage and happened to be my birthday. It was at the Sony scoring stage and John, they had to record Happy Birthday.

Kevin Goetz (38:16):

Oh, what? For the movie? I was going to say, what?

William Goldenberg (38:17):

And it was my first day.

Kevin Goetz (38:20):

What a birthday present.

William Goldenberg (38:21):

And John Williams is playing Happy Birthday with a hundred-piece orchestra. No one knew it was my birthday because I didn't want to tell them.

Kevin Goetz (38:26):

Oh, and you thought it was a tribute to you? <laugh>.

William Goldenberg (38:32):

No, I knew it wasn't. It was serendipitous. You know?

Kevin Goetz (38:34):

That's genius. Anyway. Oh, that's a great, that's a great story.

William Goldenberg (38:36):

Yeah, no, it was so, it was like, oh God, I can't believe this. It was, it was incredible.

Kevin Goetz (38:40):

Do you remember a screening, a particular screening that, because of the audience response, really gave you, opened up something or they gave you that, that nugget that said, I think we solved this particular problem, I think, and it was a big one? Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. It's not a little nitpicky thing. Yeah.

William Goldenberg (39:00):

Yeah. Argo, actually.

Kevin Goetz

You go, let me hear, let me hear about, well, Argo, if you don't mind.

William Goldenberg (39:07):

Everybody says, oh, did you know Argo was going to be a best picture? I was like, no. Not even close. Maybe I was hoping, you know, I kept thinking I was going to get fired because I always think I'm going to get fired. But, um, we had several, like…

Kevin Goetz (39:19):

Some of the greats say that to me. I have to tell you, like, I've heard that comment a lot.

William Goldenberg (39:25):

Um…

Kevin Goetz (39:25):

Trust me, no one wants to fire you, <laugh>.

William Goldenberg (39:27):

Well, you know, I guess I feel like I've crossed some sort of threshold where maybe I won't get, I'm less likely to get fired <laugh>. So anyway, we kept having friends and family screenings where the movie, and you get 20, 25 people, you can get a sense of what's working and what's not. So we would have these screenings and it was just like, it was really good. But it was, we just knew something wasn't clicking. And we, there used to be a lot more, there were several other sequences in that movie with Ben's character of Tony Mendez and his wife. Mostly phone calls. In fact, all phone calls, that was so the marriage part of it than his falling, his marriage falling apart was a much bigger part of the story. Mm-hmm. <affirmative> than ended up being in the movie.

William Goldenberg (40:10):

Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. So we were about to have, like, instead of having 20, we were going to have like a people screening with like 60 or 70 people over at JJ Abrams facility where he has a screening room. And a couple of days before Ben got a suggestion from actually from Bradley Cooper, who saw the movie and said, I don't think you need any of that stuff with the wife. And we were like, that's crazy. We can't, I mean, we worked so hard on these scenes and we thought it was integral to the movie. And Ben said, what are you thinking? I said, I think it's worth a try. I think it's worth, you know?

William Goldenberg (40:42):

Considering, considering, and we have the screening, maybe we'll test it in front of these people. So we said, okay, let's do it. So it came out so easily that it seemed like, hmm, this makes…

Kevin Goetz (40:52):

Maybe because you worked so hard on the individual scene.

William Goldenberg (40:55):

It was a lot of improv with Ben and Taylor Schilling who played his wife, tons of improv. That was really good. And it really felt, was really real.

Kevin Goetz (41:07):

There is a great example of what we talked about earlier in the program today, which is not drinking the Kool-Aid. In other words, just not falling in love with your own scene if it doesn't serve the overall movie.

William Goldenberg (41:21):

Well sometimes, you know, it’s hard to see that. And hopefully that's what I mean by like, hopefully if it's not, it's the director sees the, if the director doesn't see it, the editor will.

Kevin Goetz (41:29):

So had the audience…

William Goldenberg (41:30):

So anyway, we did it. And like I said, I think I took all the scenes out and had to rejigger a couple things. It took it to an hour and a half, you know, and it took like eight minutes, 10 minutes out of the movie, just boom like that. And then we screened it for, I think it was like I said, 60, 70 people, right? And we're running and it's playing great. But we were worried about what happens at the end when Ben shows up at his house and you see the wife for the first time, and we were just, so that scene came up, it's the end of the movie, and Ben and I are looking at each other like, uh oh, is this going to work? It was like you could feel the nervousness from both of us. And then the lights came up and everybody, we had really loud round of applause and all the cards, they fully filled out cards and all the cards were amazing. And we were like, okay. We just, I think we just clicked.

Kevin Goetz (42:14):

Oh, wow.

William Goldenberg (42:15):

You know, and then we previewed it. Well, you, I can't remember, you must have been right there.

Kevin Goetz (42:19):

I wasn't there. Oh, you were for that? No, I wasn't there for that.

William Goldenberg (42:22):

That was my second highest preview.

Kevin Goetz (42:23):

<laugh>. Oh yeah. Well again, it's a glorious movie. Well, we could stay here and speak forever. I have to say that, that again what you do in your profession is to me, of the highest, highest level. And again, one of the most important, if not the most important, certainly in the finishing of a movie. And thank you for sharing your stories here today. And again, I hope we get to do this again. You're the first editor I ever had. And I hope that I can do more of these interviews with people in your craft.

William Goldenberg (43:06):

I'm sure they'd be happy to speak to you. And no, I mean, I feel like I've literally all, I think to myself all the time that I was sort of born under a lucky star, at least career-wise, probably personally too, I guess. But I mean, I just, the directors I've gotten to work for, the people I've gotten to meet, you know, and the success I've had is like, it's kind of astonishing to me. Oh, Billy, I feel like, I feel like as somebody's sort of watching over me, really, I mean, it's not like I'm a super religious man.

Kevin Goetz (43:33):

And where's your Oscar?

William Goldenberg (43:35):

In my family room

Kevin Goetz (43:36):

<laugh>. And you look at it and go by and go, I won it.

William Goldenberg (43:38):

Yeah. It really is. It really is nice to see, you know, it really is.

Kevin Goetz (43:42):

To bring this full circle now.

William Goldenberg (43:43):

Yeah. I mean it, to think I'd have won, you know, and I never thought of my wildest imagination that that would happen to me. And it was quite the year, you know? It was, it was very exciting. I just, I've worked on those two movies and I've worked with Katherine Bigelow on that film. And then I worked with Ben in the same year. It was like, I mean, how much luckier can you get?

Kevin Goetz (44:07):

And the winner is <laugh> Billy Goldenberg. Thanks Billy.

William Goldenberg (44:12):

Thank you.

Kevin Goetz (44:14):

To our listeners, I hope you enjoy today's interview. Check out Billy's film released earlier this year, The Outfit,available on Prime Video. Also, check out two of his upcoming films, Transformers Rise of The Beasts and Air Jordan, directed by Ben Affleck and starring Matt Damon. Next time on Don't Kill the Messenger, I'll welcome the talented and prolific director, writer, producer, and storyteller, George Tillman Jr. Until then, I'm Kevin Goetz, and to you, our listeners, I appreciate you being a part of the movie-making process. Your opinions matter.

Host: Kevin Goetz

Guest: William Goldenberg

Producer: Kari Campano