Podcast: Don't Kill the Messenger with Movie Research Expert Kevin Goetz 
Guest:  Veteran Studio Executive and Producer Amy Baer 
Interview Transcript:

Announcer (00:02):

There's a little-known part of Hollywood that most people are not aware of known as the audience test preview. The recently released book, Audienceology, reveals this for the first time. Our podcast series, Don't Kill the Messenger, brings this book to life, taking a peek behind the curtain. And now, join author and entertainment research expert, Kevin Goetz.

Kevin Goetz (00:24):

(Singing) Sunday, Monday happy days! Tuesday, Wednesday happy days. Thursday, Friday. <laugh>. Happy day. Oh my gosh. I sing the song today for two reasons. One is that my guest today’s Imdb profile, which I didn't know, says she acted in the Happy Days TV show in the seventies as a little girl. And number two is that she's the real-life daughter of the late, wonderful actor Mr. C in Happy Days, Tom Bosley. That being said, I have to say that Amy Baer, who's here today, has come a long way from just having had a famous dad that we all know and love. She's one incredible woman in her own right who can absolutely stand on her own two feet. And now some might even say that Tom is Amy Bear's dad instead of the other way around, which is, Hey, that girl over there, that's Tom Bosley's daughter. Amy's career in the entertainment industry is so unique because it spans major studios, independent financiers, and producing.

Speaker 2 (01:32):

Some of the points I just have to bring up are that she graduated Magna Cum Laude from Georgetown. She began her career at CAA, the behemoth agency. She spent 17 years at Sony Pictures. She oversaw so many hits and developed all of them. Amy served as president and CEO of CBS Films from 2007 to 2011. In 2012, she raised a seven figure development fund and launched one of the industries, only female-led independently finance content incubation companies, a novel idea at the time. In 2018, she became board president of Women in Film, and most recently she became president of Landline Pictures, a company that focuses on a-- thank god-- 50 plus audience (Yay!) for both theatrical and streaming distribution. Please help me welcome Amy Bear.

Amy Baer (02:26):

Thank you, Kev. Good to see you. Thank you for having me.

Kevin Goetz (02:29):

I am so excited to talk. In fact, I'm a little worried about this interview, <laugh>, because we have a shorthand mm-hmm. <affirmative>, and we've been, I think we crossed over as friends, I want to say like 15 years ago where we were work friends. Yes. But then we became friends and then Neil and Matt. Yes. And the whole family in Campbell Hall. Yes. And all of that, <laugh>. So it's hard because I know a lot of information, but there's also a lot I don't know. Here's what I do know is you are, like I am, a tremendous advocate for the audience. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, I would call you an audience advocate. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, tell me why that's important to you.

Amy Baer (03:10):

Well, it's important because it's all that matters. So I have said to anyone who will listen to me from my colleagues and the people who've worked with me, junior executives, to filmmakers, to, most recently my husband, Matt and I have been teaching a class at Chapman University.

Kevin Goetz (03:31):

Co-teaching?

Amy Baer (03:32):

Yes, it's been really fun.

Kevin Goetz (03:33):

And you're not killing each other?

Amy Baer (03:33):

No, it's actually been really fun. I was really nervous, but it was really fun. But, you know, we've said it to the students, the reality is if you don't know who you are making a piece of content for, and I say content very intentionally, because it isn't just film or television, it is all content. If you do not know who the audience is for what you're making, don't make it.

Kevin Goetz (03:56):

Mm. There was a time, and we won't mention the movie because I don't want to call out anyone, but it was a very, very well done movie. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, I will say. And it was one of your first mm-hmm. <affirmative> as running a movie company mm-hmm. <affirmative>, CBS films. And I remember having lunch with you and it was sort of a cautionary tale. I was saying, you know, I'd just be really careful now, hindsight is 20/20. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, and of course, I didn't want to play Monday morning quarterback mm-hmm. <affirmative>, but that was already in production. Sure. There's not much to do about it, but I remember saying to you, I was worried and you were not worried. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. And then the movie came out and it really didn't work theatrically. And I remember, to your credit, and man, to your credit, we had some other lunch, I don't know, years later. And, and you said, without missing a beat, you told me not to make that movie, and I should have listened. Now, who says that?

Amy Baer (04:54):

Well, I think that anyone who's authentic and honest says that, you know, I mean, and we, you and I both know, there are just as many authentic and honest people in the business as there are the other version. And a lot of those people are running studios. And it's hard to say. I mean, it is, it's hard to say when you're wrong, but what's the point? Like, what, who are you hiding it from? The whole world knows.

Kevin Goetz (05:15):

But you made, you made a great movie. So let's talk about it.

Amy Baer (05:17):

And it actually tested well, if you remember.

Kevin Goetz (05:19):

It tested not well. It tested extremely well. Yes. So, first of all, my saying not to do, it was based on research that I had conducted, concept research called capability testing. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, which you've become a tremendous advocate of. Huge. Yes. But that was not the point of this conversation. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, what I'm trying to say is, you made a great movie. I don't think you've ever made a bad movie. You've might have made average movies, but you've made great movies mm-hmm. <affirmative>, and this was a really good movie that deserved its existence, but there was not really an audience for it. What did you learn at CBS films in that four years of running and being in charge and having that green light authority?

Amy Baer (06:02):

Oh, it's such a great question. I always say that the experience I had at CBS was like an experiential MBA. I had come from 17 years at Sony, and I was an executive vice president, and there was a, it's a legacy studio, there was an established system. It was very siloed. You know, the creative people did their thing, the business people did their thing, the marketing people did their thing, and when I got to, one of the things that was so unique about CBS was the moment that I started it. And that does play into the decisions that were made to greenlight that movie. So I started at CBS Films in October of 2007. In November of 2007, the writers struck. In February of 2008, the actors struck. And in September of 2008, the economy crashed. So in the one year, the first year I was there, every assumption that existed at the foundation of that studio was upended. And I started from scratch. I had no projects, I had no nothing. And had pressure because we had overhead. We were spending money to sort of ramp up to get movies made. But not only was I under pressure to get movies made at a time where the rules were…

Kevin Goetz (07:14):

Well, you couldn’t make movies.

Amy Baer (07:15):

You couldn't make movies. But the economics and the audience component of movies changed that year. That was the beginning of social media having an impact on your opening weekend. It was right when Netflix was at the tipping point of going to, from being just a DVD business to an original content business. There were all these things that were changing at that moment. The thing about that movie, I think if I had to do it over again, I would've done it at a third of the price. It was way too expensive. And I think right now it's a movie that would play well on streaming, but just wasn't a movie that you could get people out of the house to go see.

Kevin Goetz (07:49):

But there wasn't the streamer there that you could. Correct. But you know what's interesting is, I'm going to change the wording of the MBA to the PhD, <laugh>, <laugh>, because my God. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, I mean, and how that has informed your decisions, because after that, I think all your movies did make money, and also the movies that you then took out into the world as a producer have all made money, which is so crazy because you just think that as a person in development who doesn't have the final green light, I know you had a lot of influence, I think when Amy Pascal was running Columbia. But nonetheless, she got to pull the trigger on that green light. And my question is, when you had that ability to do that, I mean, there's a big responsibility that comes with that.

Amy Baer (08:35):

Huge, huge. And part of the issue, I don't think you know, I always used to take issue with all the journalists that would write about how bad a movie was. And studios don't get it. And I know you know this, and I have to say this for everybody who's listening, I don't know one studio executive who sets out cynically to make a bad movie just to make money. Everybody does their best to make the best movie they possibly can.

Kevin Goetz (08:54):

100%.

Amy Baer (08:55):

And I think when you get into that job…

Kevin Goetz (08:57):

Even if it is a cash play as it's by perceived by the audience, they're never intending it to be that. Correct. They want it to be the best version, the best version, better than it was before. Absolutely. Whatever it may be, a sequel or whatever it may be.

Amy Baer (09:09):

Absolutely. And I think when you get into that seat where you are pulling the trigger, what you realize is it isn't just a, I love this, I want to make it, there's an entire business necessity to feed the beast. You have to be making movies. There is a cost to money, there is a cost to the overhead. All of these things that are sitting there that you're spending on, or that you're borrowing money from a bank or a line of credit in order to keep your business afloat, that costs money. So you have to be making things that can then be generating revenue.

Kevin Goetz (09:40):

You better pay your overhead. Correct. Keep your doors open.

Amy Baer (09:42):

So there's a different concern.

Kevin Goetz (09:43):

And that's not even profit, that's just keeping your, that's simple. And as an entrepreneur, God, I know that, of course.

Amy Baer (09:48):

So in the case of that specific movie, the circumstances were, it was a strike. So we were only able to make movies that were fully packaged that had a locked script because nobody could do any work on the script. And we had a director, we had a script, and we had a very big movie star. So you look at that and you say, okay, we have to make something. This is a movie that has a big movie star, it skewed older. CBS is a network that skews older. There's a way to capture that audience potentially.

Kevin Goetz (10:18):

I know it seemed like such a great thing.

Amy Baer (10:19):

So there was a lot. But as you say, the flip side of it was, it was a drama based on true story with an uplifting ending, but still a difficult, serious drama.

Kevin Goetz (10:28):

And dramas in theatrical, even at that time, even at that time, were really tough. Unless they were unanimously great reviews.

Amy Baer (10:35):

Correct. Right. And was too expensive. Even though it was less expensive than most of the movies I had made at Sony, it was still too expensive. So there were circumstances that justified it, but the reality is, when you're pulling the trigger on those movies, when you're in that seat, it's never just about, I love it, I want to make it, there's a whole other business component to it. Sure. That you have to factor in.

Kevin Goetz (10:57):

And you had to learn that. Correct. That was not taught beforehand. And there's no school that teaches it. No. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, I have to say, as an entrepreneur, starting out in my living room, cashing in everything I own to start my business, mm-hmm. <affirmative> boy, can I relate to knowing what that really feels like.

Amy Baer (11:12):

It’s terrifying.

Kevin Goetz (11:13):

And what you've done now is so extraordinary with the latest iteration of Landline Pictures mm-hmm. <affirmative>, which is, we laugh about a, a phrase that I say, make a movie for everybody, make a movie for somebody, but don't make a movie for nobody.

Amy Baer (11:27):

Nobody.

Kevin Goetz (11:28):

<laugh>. And you're making a movie for somebody.

Amy Baer (11:30):

Yes, I am. Yes, I am.

Kevin Goetz (11:31):

And that is a great model. It's almost a model that can't fail. When I say that is, if you stay in your lane and know your audience, and then budget appropriately, which is what you didn't do in the other one, again, a great picture, a good idea, not a great idea. Mm-hmm. <affirmative> on the one we talked about previously. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. But now you're making more high concept mm-hmm. <affirmative> ideas, you understand the audience super well. You research that audience, you know who they are. It really portends and points to the fact that you're going to be successful almost every time out.

Amy Baer (12:14):

Well, thank you. 

Kevin Goetz (12:15):

You know, it's not even meant, I don't even mean…

Amy Baer (12:16):

No, and I appreciate that.

Kevin Goetz (12:17):

To stroke.

Amy Baer (12:18):

No, no, I know.

Kevin Goetz (12:19):

I mean it, that you really understand a business model.

Amy Baer (12:23):

Yes. And one of the things that I am so excited about in terms of Landline, is it is a lane that we own. 100%. There's a couple of other companies out there that are dabbling in it, but they're not exclusively in it.

Kevin Goetz (12:38):

And how did it get formed again?

Amy Baer (12:40):

So, MRC, Media Rights Capital, who has been around for about 15, 16 years. Two very enterprising men, Modi Wiczyk and his partner Asif Satchu, they started MRC mostly as an investment company. Right. They would package projects, take them to market. They got on the map in a big way because their first big television sale was House of Cards. They put that together, sold it to Netflix, it was a hundred million dollar deal. It got Netflix in the content business. They made an unbelievable deal.

Kevin Goetz (13:12):

Because they must, they must have made an unbelievable amount of money on that.

Amy Baer (13:15):

Just crazy. And so, you know, they've been very successful in both film and television. On the TV side, most recently they have had The Great, they had Ozark, they had Terminal List, they've got a lot going on on tv. And in film.

Kevin Goetz (13:25):

Ozark was theirs?

Amy Baer (13:26):

Yes, Ozark was theirs. On film, they did the first Knives Out. They did Ted. they've done tons of movies. They also invested in movies. And they did Bruno. They've invested passively as well as putting them together. And so in 2019, actually Brian Adler and Jonathan Golfman, who are now the co-presidents, had gone around town talking, because they're an independent studio. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. And they don't have distribution by design. Right. They went around town sort of canvassing all of the buyers saying, what do you need? Like, what are you looking for that you don't have? And it started to formulate around three buckets. So it was lower budget comedy, romance, like Nick Sparks kinds of movies, and movies for an older audience. And so…

Kevin Goetz (14:08):

And let's be clear about something. Yeah. Two of those three, the romance and the low-budget comedies are both non-theatrical studio-level movies at this point. That's right. So they were smart enough to talk to all the players.

Amy Baer (14:23):

Yes they did.

Kevin Goetz (14:23):

Not just the studios.

Amy Baer (14:25):

No, no. They talked to everybody that’s right.

Kevin Goetz (14:26):

I didn't even know that and I could tell you because you are absolutely right. People love those movies. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, that you just, people love comedies of course and people love romantic comedies. Yes. And romances. Sorry. But also an underserved market. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, which is where you stepped in.

Amy Baer (14:43):

That's right. So they reached out to me because I had produced the film Last Vegas.

Kevin Goetz (14:48):

Which made over what, $135 million.

Amy Baer (14:52):

170 something.

Kevin Goetz (14:54):

170.

Amy Baer (14:54):

Worldwide. And was made on a very reasonable budget. It was 29 million net.

Kevin Goetz (15:00):

Wait, Last Vegas. Last Vegas made how much overall?

Amy Baer (15:06):

172 million worldwide. Wow. On a 29 million net budget. So it was about 33 in change gross.

Kevin Goetz (15:11):

That's an incredible return.

Amy Baer (15:13):

Yes. Very successful. So, I had produced that and I hadn't made, as a studio executive, I had made Something's Gotta Give, I had made The Holiday, I'd worked with Jim Brooks. So I had a sort of affinity for this world in terms of telling stories for and about an older audience.

Kevin Goetz (15:29):

At a price.

Amy Baer (15:30):

Yes. At a price. So I sat down with them and they had a really innovative idea, which I really respected, which is they didn't want to just bring in more bodies into the studio so they would have more overhead. So then they would source these movies, but then have to go hire a producer. And they said, look, what we really want is a hybrid. We want someone who has studio experience and someone who knows how to produce a movie. And this is the space. And I said, okay, let me dig in. And I went and did my own research.

Kevin Goetz (15:59):

So they approached you?

Amy Baer (16:01):

Yes. I went and I wish it had been my idea. Like I think about that all the time. <laugh>, like, I wish I had said, like, okay,

Kevin Goetz (16:05):

I hate to tell you this, but you did have that idea <laugh> at one point. I have her. I did hear that idea at one point.

Amy Baer (16:11):

You probably did. But what I did is I actually went back 30 years and looked at every theatrical release. Because at this time it was 2019. Covid hadn't happened yet so there was still this sort of theatrical, maybe play on all these films before everything, you know, went kablooey. But you know, I did my own list of every movie. I thought sort of the boxes of the lane we wanted to be in, which is certain.

Kevin Goetz (16:34):

Wild Hogs.

Amy Baer (16:35):

Yes. It was, it was comedy, romantic comedy, action comedy like Red, anything that was in this space. They had certain creative signposts, certain thematic signposts, certain casting signposts, certain budget parameters. And I'm not exaggerating, almost without fail, every one of them worked. The ones that didn't work were not consistent.

Kevin Goetz (16:58):

In their theme or tone.

Amy Baer (16:59):

Like too heavy drama. No really sticky idea, right? It was just like two people talking for a couple of hours. But when you looked all the way back to Grumpy Old Men, when you looked at the movies that were made for and about an older audience that hit certain themes of second chances, starting over, finding love again, you know, grand adventures. The bucket list, not the movie, but the bucket list of life.

Kevin Goetz (17:25):

Well, and The Bucket List.

Amy Baer (17:26):

And The Bucket list.

Kevin Goetz (17:28):

Terrific picture.

Amy Baer (17:28):

They almost always worked. So what we did is looked at 30 years of movies and saw that there are certain creative thematic casting and financial guidelines, signposts, that if the movies adhered to that, they almost always succeeded. I would literally say to you, the rate of return on them from, from a success standpoint was about 80%. And I'll send you the list.

Kevin Goetz (17:51):

Listeners, learn from this, do your research, do secondary research. It doesn't cost anything. Go in and be smarter than the other person who's not necessarily analyzing movie after movie and trying to figure out what themes and, and elements work. That is smart.

Amy Baer (18:09):

I wanted to make sure that I understood the lane they were in. And you know, the other thing I got really excited about was that you're talking about a cohort of the audience, not a genre. So I'm not selling just comedy or just romance or just horror. I'm selling to an audience for an audience.

Kevin Goetz (18:31):

Let me ask you this. Is it more liberating?

Amy Baer (18:34):

Oh, a hundred percent.

Kevin Goetz (18:36):

I kind of knew what you were going to say. A hundred percent. How could it not be a hundred percent? Because now you have filters mm-hmm. <affirmative> that say, well I like that, but that's some, let's someone else do that.

Amy Baer (18:45):

Well, I'll give you a perfect example. So, there was a script that went out last year with a very big director attached, and three massive movie stars. One of whom was Morgan Freeman. So, you know, it's obviously, he's like one of the holy grail for this space, blah, blah, blah. Um, the movie cost, the original budget I saw was over 60 and it was a noir whodunit that took place in a nursing home. And I passed. And the producer, it never sold, by the way, came back to me again with a lower budget.

Kevin Goetz (19:26):

It was a good script too?

Amy Baer (19:27):

It was a fine script. Okay. But here's the problem. Yeah. Okay. Sending aside the, the budget, which was too big for our threshold, roughly 20 gross, which is 15 to 17 net, depending on where you shoot them, give or take, depending upon cast, whatever. But we're really trying to be disciplined in how we put them together. There's no wish fulfillment in any movie ever taking place in a nursing home for my audience.

Kevin Goetz (19:52):

Cocoon?

Amy Baer (19:54):

Not really about the nursing home, it's about something else.

Kevin Goetz (19:57):

Yeah. And they don't spend almost any time in the nursing home. That's right. You're right. And it's getting the new life force.

Amy Baer (20:03):

Yeah. And it was a noir and with some humor. And so it didn't live in any of the clearer filters that we had identified for ourselves that made sense.

Kevin Goetz (20:14):

And you've been in the position of having that wonderful postmortem with yourself. Oh. Saying I should have listened to that little voice.

Amy Baer (20:23):

Oh, for sure. And a lot of people haven't had that, you know, and it's really scary for anyone who's listening. It doesn't ever get any easier to pass on a project that has three massive movie stars, including Morgan Freeman. I'm sure every one of your guests who comes on here can talk about big movies that they passed on, or big shows that they passed on. But it was really liberating because it didn't fit, it didn't go into any of the filters that we're really using to decide what we’re making.

Kevin Goetz (20:49):

And why I respect you so much, one of the many reasons, is because you do have the wherewithal to stand up to the people around you that may say, what are you nuts to pass on this? Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, I just talked to a head of a studio about this. We spoke about one’s superpower mm-hmm. <affirmative>. And one of the superpowers of this particular person was their ability to be authentic and to be honest with themselves and not be swayed. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. And on the bad side of that can come arrogance, of course, on the positive side is you win every time. Right. Right. Because you do everything for the right reasons. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. And you, you've relied then on your experience and comps and research and the fact that you've been doing this a really long time. But it's very hard to do that in the beginning of one's career.

Amy Baer (21:33):

Oh, for sure. I say this to everybody, students and young people who are working for me, I say, your opinion is your number one currency. And so it isn't, especially when you're an executive…

Kevin Goetz (21:46):

Use it wisely.

Amy Baer (21:47):

Use it wisely and get, and spend time honing it, because that's what will distinguish you. If you just are sort of milk toasty, wishy-washy about everything, or you're afraid to offend someone. I mean, there's ways of passing. I'll never forget one time we had a movie with Spike Jonze, and I had already made a movie, I'd made Adaptation with him at Sony. And he had brought something else to us and Amy Pascal, we didn't want to make it. And Amy passed in a very direct and respectful way, and he said thank you. You know, because we weren't beating around the bush. We weren't holding him back. We weren't…

Kevin Goetz (22:26):

That is so important. Just, you know, just answer in an honest way. I sometimes say, you know, sometimes I'll have to let someone go. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. And the person, if you do it in a classy way, will come back to you in 10 years, the best thing you ever did was fire me.

Amy Baer (22:40):

Yes. That's right.

Kevin Goetz (22:41):

Because it just wasn't the right fit.

Amy Baer (22:43):

Right.

Kevin Goetz (22:44):

That's great. We're going to take a break. When we come back, I'm going to turn the tables a little bit because I want to hear about how Amy became Amy <laugh>. We'll be back in a moment.

Announcer (22:55):

Get a glimpse into a secret part of Hollywood that few are aware of and that filmmakers rarely talk about in the new book Audienceology by Kevin Goetz. Each chapter is filled with never before revealed inside stories and interviews from famous studio chiefs, directors, producers, and movie stars, bringing the art and science of audienceology into focus. Audienceology, How Moviegoers Shape the Films We Love, from Tiller Press at Simon and Schuster. Available now.

Kevin Goetz (23:28):

Okay. So, we talked so much about some of the technical stuff of what it takes to be in Amy's head when you get to that green light. What was it like growing up with Tom Bosley as a dad? What was it like then? Finding your selfhood, your individuality?

Amy Baer (23:48):

It was funny when you were talking in the intro, I kept thinking, oh God, maybe I'm a nepo baby too. Is it nepo- or nepo-baby? I don't know what the new ones are now. <laugh> <laugh>.

Kevin Goetz (23:57):

I don't know what it is.

Amy Baer (23:57):

Oh, you know, this whole new movement of like, like nepotism.

Kevin Goetz (24:00):

Yes. So it'd be nepo though.

Amy Baer (24:01):

Okay. Nepo. So maybe I'm a sort of so pseudo nepo-baby, but not really.

Kevin Goetz (24:06):

Nobody gave you anything.

Amy Baer (24:07):

No, no, they didn't. So, he was a great dad. Great dad, very down to earth. I think part of what my groundedness comes from is him, because he was born and raised in the Midwest and he actually didn't have massive success professionally until his forties. You know, he did have Broadway success, but he, that was in his mid-thirties and then, you know…

Kevin Goetz (24:30):

It's astounding. Yeah. Do you remember sort of, I don't want to say struggling, but until that really hit, was it just, he was a working actor?

Amy Baer (24:37):

Yes. The reality is Happy Days was what my dad did while I was in high from kindergarten to 12th grade. Oh my Lord. So, your dad went and did something every day. And that's what my dad went and did every day. And he was home for dinner four nights a week, except for Friday nights when they taped the show.

Kevin Goetz (24:52):

Did you go to the show?

Amy Baer (24:53):

Oh yeah. All the time. All the time.

Kevin Goetz (24:55):

Were you friends with all of those or any of them?

Amy Baer (24:58):

Yeah. Still friendly. In fact, with Ron, Ron called me a like a month ago.

Kevin Goetz (25:02):

I love that man. I have to say shout out. And he will be a guest on here. I guarantee I'm going to twist his arm, but I may not have to twist too hard, I'm hoping, but he's just the best.

Amy Baer (25:13):

Oh, he’s lovely.

Kevin Goetz (25:13):

He's another one that really gets the audience. Yes, he does. I can imagine you, you know, rapping with Ron on the set of Happy Days.

Amy Baer (25:20):

<laugh>. No, they were all really lovely.

Kevin Goetz (25:23):

And Anson Williams and I just did a book signing together too.

Amy Baer (25:25):

He’s great. Anson's great.

Kevin Goetz (25:27):

Did you read about this thing in Ojai?

Amy Baer (25:28):

He's mayor or he ran for mayor?

Kevin Goetz (25:29):

No, he ran, but he lost like by 18 votes. So he asked for a recount and then he just conceded. Aw. I was like, I know. And he's so nice. Just give him the damn mayor, the mayorship or whatever?

Amy Baer (25:41):

Who are the 18 people that wouldn't vote for Potsy?

Kevin Goetz (25:43):

I know. I'm going to go up there personally. I know. Exactly. And then Henry, of course is a, is just the best treasure. And I just saw Marion.

Amy Baer (25:52):

Did you?

Kevin Goetz (25:53):

I saw her at the Fallon Mall. Oh, Marion Ross. How is she? I didn't really talk with her too much, but she just, she looks great.

Amy Baer (26:00):

Yeah, she does. She's aged incredibly. She looks great.

Kevin Goetz (26:02):

Well. Anyway, so you went to the set? Yeah, once a week were these were like your buddies, right?

Amy Baer (26:06):

Yeah. Those are my dad's work colleagues, right? So he is, he was a big reason for my love of movies because he was steeped in early to mid-20th-century film. There was sort of a gap from like the sixties to the eighties. And I attribute that to the fact that he had me and he was also starting on the show. So he was busy with other things.

Kevin Goetz (26:30):

He was never under contract though.

Amy Baer (26:31):

No. No. Mm-hmm. No. He came after that. Yeah, he came after that. But he was very successful as you know, in theater in New York and then…

Kevin Goetz (26:39):

Fiorello.

Amy Baer (26:40):

Yes, which he won a Tony for. Wow. But then he ended up having to come out to Los Angeles because there was more work here. Broadway started to really dry up in the late sixties. And there was more and more happening out here for actors.

Kevin Goetz (26:54):

Was he married to your mom or Patricia then?

Amy Baer (26:56):

To my mom. To my mom. Uhhuh. <affirmative>. They met in Fiorello. She was a dancer who came into the chorus.

Kevin Goetz (27:02):

Wow. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. Yeah. And what happened to your mom?

Amy Baer (27:06):

She passed away when I was…

Kevin Goetz (27:07):

When was that?

Amy Baer (27:09):

78. I was almost 12. Yeah. She had she be been sick for really long.

Kevin Goetz (27:12):

But that must have been super hard for you.

Amy Baer (27:13):

It was hard. It was hard. And I was an only child, so it was just me and my dad.

Kevin Goetz (27:17):

And he was the best. Huh?

Amy Baer (27:19):

He was exactly what you would hope Mr. C would be like in real life. That was a big piece of who he was.

Kevin Goetz (27:24):

Was it true what I said like it was kind of like you were his daughter?

Amy Baer (27:28):

Oh, the joke. And if you ever have Amy Pascal on, or Matt Tolmach, one of my former colleagues who's now a very successful producer, we would sit in meetings at Sony and in the middle of a meeting as a non-sequitur, they would say, do you know who her father is?

Kevin Goetz (27:44):

You know, I always say that.

Amy Baer (27:45):

And I'm like, what are you doing this has nothing to do with anything going on in this meeting? And they're like, yeah, but it's just so cool. I'm like, okay. But you know what's really funny now is young people don't remember it as much. They don't really know.

Kevin Goetz (27:55):

I know. It's so sad. I was just talking, who was I just saying? Oh, I got a call. I'm not name-dropping, but I got a call from Senator Bill Bradley right this morning. Right. And I'm working with Bill on a documentary that he financed. Oh, how cool. And stars in, and he's an amazing man. Yeah. I mean, what he's accomplished. Sure. And I remember we were talking about the focus group and he, you know, there were two diagnostic things about the pace and length. And then there was something about the visuals and or lack thereof. And, I said, well you can help the pace. I don't know what you're really going to do about the visuals. But he said the third thing though that I read in all the cards was that a lot of people that don't know me. And I was like, well they kind of know, you've heard they heard the name mm-hmm. <affirmative>. But I was saying those same people don't even know who Frank Sinatra or Barbara Streisand are. And I'm like, this is ridiculous. Yeah. I think people should be thrown out of school if they don’t know certain people.

Amy Baer (28:44):

Oh, I have this conversation all the time with people in my office where I'll mention a movie and they'll say, what is that? And I literally say, leave my office and don't come back until you've seen the film.

Kevin Goetz (28:53):

Oh I, oh my God. I love what you just said. When I was in acting school, acting conservatory and I went to one of the best, I'll give a shoutout to Mason Gross School of the Arts at Rutgers. We had to know certain people. If we didn't know, and I'm not talking about Frank Sinatra and Barbara Streisand and Tom Bosley, I'm talking about Eleonora Duse or Sarah Bernhard or whoever it was. And they would say, get up and do a report on it and come back when you know who that person is. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. And so when I teach at the film schools, whether it's Chapman or UCLA or USC or North Carolina School of the Arts or AFI or NYU, I always give them lists of people in the beginning. And I say, these are people you should know.

Amy Baer (29:38):

Matt does a list for our students, because we've done it for three semesters now. It's Matt's must-see list.

Kevin Goetz (29:44):

I love that.

Amy Baer (29:45):

It's 25.

Kevin Goetz (29:45):

Of movies or?

Amy Baer (29:46):

Movies. It's 25 movies that you have to, even if you're 19 years old and a sophomore in college, you need to see these movies.

Kevin Goetz (29:53):

There are directing students who do not know who John Ford is.

Amy Baer (29:56):

No, I know.

Kevin Goetz (29:57):

Who has won four Academy Awards.

Amy Baer (29:58):

I know. And even if they don't know who John Ford is, they've watched Quentin Tarantino movies and he's been influenced by John Ford. So how can you not know the influence of your favorite filmmakers? So, yeah, exactly.

Kevin Goetz (30:11):

I know. So you leave Georgetown. Yes. What was your major?

Amy Baer (30:15):

English.

Kevin Goetz (30:16):

I love English majors by the way. I was an English major. I love English majors. I hire a lot of them.

Amy Baer (30:20):

Because it prepared me for what I ended up doing. And I talk about it a lot with students who were nervous. I'm not a film major. It's like, it's okay. Don't worry about it. You know the thing about being an English major, when I talk about my timing, when I graduated, I graduated in 88 and came back out here to get a job and there was a writer strike, seems to follow me around. The writer strikes <laugh>. So, but at the time…

Kevin Goetz (30:43):

I know I could base the cadence of the success of my business over the last 30 plus years by strikes. The strikes.

Amy Baer (30:51):

So, you know, but I, when I came out and I did a bunch of temp jobs and all sorts of things and then I ended up getting a job at CAA. It was a great opportunity because I learned the business.

Kevin Goetz (31:02):

Did you enter the mail room?

Amy Baer (31:04):

No, no. I was just an assistant. Which is different.

Kevin Goetz (31:06):

Did they always do that or?

Amy Baer (31:07):

Yes, they still hire assistants who don't want to be in the mail room that are just assistants.

Kevin Goetz (31:13):

And did you go right to Jay's desk?

Amy Baer (31:15):

Yes, I was hired by Jay.

Kevin Goetz (31:16):

And I've only heard the greatest things about him. I never really got to know him.

Amy Baer (31:20):

Oh, he was amazing. I mean, again, another person that a whole generation of people don't know who he is.

Kevin Goetz (31:25):

He was a very influential agent.

Amy Baer (31:27):

Extremely.

Kevin Goetz (31:28):

And one of the Young Turks.

Amy Baer (31:29):

Yes, he was, he was one of the original Young Turks. He was a USC student. He dropped out to be Mike Ovitz's assistant. And what started as the second assistant to David O'Connor, another one of the Young Turks. And then got, and then got promoted and then became an agent in his own right. And when he was promoted, they told him he could hire an assistant. And that's when I went in there and was interviewing and he hired me. And the thing about Jay, at first I thought like, what am I going to learn from this guy? He's only five years older than me.

Kevin Goetz (31:57):

Did you, hold on. You said you were a nepo-baby, or a product of that phenomenon. Did your dad help you get in?

Amy Baer (32:05):

There was one job I got as a result of his relationships. And that was, I was a PA on an Imagine Entertainment TV pilot. It was one week. That was it. <laugh>, everything else I had to do.

Kevin Goetz (32:17):

<laugh>. Sorry, I just had to laugh. Great. I wanted to, because I know I knew the answer to that and I know you did it on your own. Really.

Amy Baer (32:25):

And there was nothing he could, honestly, he was an actor. Right. It wasn't like he was running a studio.

Kevin Goetz (32:30):

Yeah. But sometimes if it's between two people and I've gotten a call from somebody saying, oh my kid is up for the job and that person usually gets the job.

Amy Baer (32:40):

Yeah.

Kevin Goetz (32:41):

I can’t lie to you.

Amy Baer (32:41):

I met, you know…

Kevin Goetz (32:43):

But if they're not, by the way, if they're more, if the other one's more talented. Yeah, of course. I’m saying if all things are equal and you know, sometimes that happens. I don't know which way to go. Right. That nepotism could actually…

Amy Baer (32:53):

No, it didn't. All that happened was I got an interview at Imagine because of Ron and I was a PA for one week on a sound stage. This is how long ago it was. I answered the set phone. Right. This is when there was still like a phone at the front door and it would light up and you would pick it up and say like Stage 20. And they would say, oh, I need to speak to so-and-so and then I would go and that that was the job. That was the only connection job I got. Everything else I did on my own.

Kevin Goetz (33:21):

And then you got to the studio, how?

Amy Baer (33:23):

So, yeah, so I was working for Jay and Jay was a talent agent.

Kevin Goetz (33:28):

I hate to say it, they called when you entered D Girls, didn't they?

Amy Baer (33:31):

Yes. Oh yes. Remember Premiere Magazine did that whole piece on D Girls. So…

Kevin Goetz (33:36):

Yeah, D Girls, development girls. And it's so, it's so sexist. It is so sexist, so awful.

Amy Baer (33:41):

So what happened was, I worked for Jay for a year and I knew I never wanted to be an agent. But what was happening is people would call him, he wouldn't be there and I'd end up talking to them. So I got to know a lot of the people who were in the business at that time, who were young executives who were calling him. He wasn't there. And I was like, hey, how's it going? And one of those people was Stacy Snyder. And Stacy and I became very good friends and at one point she said, do you want to be an agent? And I said, no. And purely coincidentally, as luck would have it, Stacy at the time was working for John Peters and Peter Guber. They had just been hired to run Sony. They were moving their entire company over to Sony and Stacy was going to be a senior executive over there and needed a junior executive. So by virtue of my experience of sitting on Jay's desk, that's how I got to know Stacy. And because I was an English major and had spent so much time reading and writing critically about everything I was reading, it started to hone my ability to write about material and do notes and coverage and coverage and all that stuff.

Kevin Goetz (34:51):

And do it well.

Amy Baer (34:51):

And learn to do it well.

Kevin Goetz (34:53):

And really articulate what you needed to lay down and write.

Amy Baer (34:58):

And that's how I got to Sony. And so I started in June of 1990 at Sony. And I joke about it, but I had the same address for 17 years, but I worked for three completely different companies.

Kevin Goetz (35:10):

Were you there when they, didn't they do Basic Instinct Tristar?

Amy Baer (35:14):

Yes, just, just after, because what happened was Guber Peters Entertainment was set up right when John and Peter took over the studio. It existed for about a year and a half and then they folded it into Tristar and Stacy became president of production at Tristar. Then Mark Platt came in to be chairman of Tristar. But they had just made Basic Instinct right before we got there. So I was at Guber Peters for like two years, and then I was at Tristar for like five and a half. And then I was at Columbia because they merged Tristar into Columbia.

Kevin Goetz (35:46):

I was going to say there were people that did not benefit from that merger <laugh>.

Amy Baer (35:50):

No.

Kevin Goetz (35:51):

Who were your colleagues then? I know some of those names, but let's…

Amy Baer (35:54):

So then it was…

Kevin Goetz (35:55):

Let's do a shout out.

Amy Baer (35:56):

Chris Lee, Michael Besman. Mike Medavoy was there, Stacy, obviously.

Kevin Goetz (36:02):

Kevin Jones.

Amy Baer (36:04):

No, Kevin wasn't, Kevin Misher.

Kevin Goetz (36:06):

Kevin Jones was at?

Amy Baer (36:07):

Kevin was at Paramount at the time.

Kevin Goetz (36:09):

Oh, got it. But he did come over, right? Mm-hmm. To Columbia. Mm-hmm.

Amy Baer (36:12):

Oh, he was at Columbia. This was at Tristar.

Kevin Goetz (36:13):

Oh, oh, got it.

Amy Baer (36:14):

This was at Tristar. So it was Kevin Misher and then at Columbia, it was Lisa Henson. Barry Josephson. 

Kevin Goetz (36:20):

Lucy Fisher. Right.

Amy Baer (36:21):

Lucy Fisher, Teddy Zee, Kevin Jones, Darris Hatch. Uh, who else? Bob Jaffe was a junior executive at the time. Jon Jashni was a junior executive at the time. Oh my God. Yeah. There was, it was, it was fun. It was a good group.

Kevin Goetz (36:36):

And think about all these…

Amy Baer (36:36):

And Doug Belgrad.

Kevin Goetz (36:38):

Who ended up becoming with Matt, co-president of Columbia.

Amy Baer (36:41):

Yeah, that's right. So, yeah.

Kevin Goetz (36:44):

And this is before the great Ange.

Amy Baer (36:45):

Well, Ange was Stacy's assistant.

Kevin Goetz (36:48):

Ange Giannetti.

Amy Baer (36:49):

Yes. She was Stacy's assistant, then became a CE, and then Stacy and Mark left and went to Universal and we stayed at Columbia and she became my CE and now she's the senior-most executive at Columbia.

Kevin Goetz (37:01):

Did you feel it was your moral obligation to help as many women as you have? I just want to say you put your money where your mouth is, you have been dedicated to advancing women in our business, thank God. Mm-hmm. Tell me about that, and all the way that got you to the President of Women in Film.

Amy Baer (37:19):

Sure. You know, I've had this really unique situation in my career because I had a lot of female mentors and I had Stacy, I had Amy Pascal, I had Lucy Fisher. They were all incredibly successful women, all of whom had children, all of whom were supportive of a work-life balance. It really wasn't until I left Sony that I realized how unique that experience was and how many of my female colleagues around the business were not as supported as I was when it came to my choices about, you know, wanting to have a family as well as a career. The thing I try to do, I feel like a lot of women don't talk to each other about what they're going through and what they're up against. So what I…

Kevin Goetz (38:09):

Especially if they have families.

Amy Baer (38:10):

Correct, I really try to be honest about what you're up against and how you can accomplish it and how to be self-supporting, and also to cut yourself some slack. Because the reality is, when you're in this business, when you're a working woman who wants to have a child, it isn't the same as when you're a man who wants to have a child or wants to have a family. Women have to get pregnant, be pregnant, have the baby, have maternity leave, and then reenter.

Kevin Goetz (38:39):

I always thought that was one of the reasons of the lack of female directors. Because even as a producer, you can show up and work often remotely if you need to. But as a director, you have to be there every day, day, day.

Amy Baer (38:54):

All of the HODs, all of the heads of departments, you know, when you're thinking about being on location…

Kevin Goetz (38:59):

But especially a director. Absolutely. They have to show up.

Amy Baer (39:01):

Absolutely. When I joined Women in Film’s board in 2014, Kathy Schulman, my predecessor, a very successful producer in her own right, had asked me to join. And one of the things that I really appreciated about it when I got there was it was a community of women who were talking to each other, which wasn't something I had really experienced in a very long time. I had these mentors early on in my career, and then there was this big sort of timeframe where I kind of was on my own, right. I was like, I was a parent and an executive, and then I left and went to CBS and I was running a company. And, you know, I remember going into some of those corporate meetings and I was one of two women sitting at a table, three women, and it was all men. And so what I loved about Women in Film was that there was this burgeoning community of women who were actually talking to each other and being sort of candid and honest.

Amy Baer (39:52):

And women have also had tendencies, certainly, I don't think so much that younger generations of women, but up until a point there's been this thing of, well, yeah, you can have a lot of women are in the room, but there can really only be one at the table. And that is a function of women, what they had to go through. I'm empathetic to it because, you know, if you're a certain age in this business, you had to kill yourself to get to the table. Right. You had to really sort of be focused and make some choices that you might not have made personally and professionally in order to be there. So, I think the more that women are in communication with each other, in community with each other, the more they understand that they're all in it together. So that's really what matters to me most. And one of the reasons why I wanted to take on the board president role, because I think building community for and with and amongst women is something that is desperately needed in this business. And it's something that men just do much better. When men need something or need help, they talk to each other and women don't do it. I think the LGBTQ community is better at it than women.

Kevin Goetz (40:56):

I absolutely agree, but I didn't think women don't do it. But you're, you're, are you thinking that that's changing now?

Amy Baer (41:01):

I think it is beginning to change, but I think women have…

Kevin Goetz (41:05):

Why is that?

Amy Baer (41:06):

Well, I think Me Too changed a lot of stuff where finally everybody started saying like the sort of open secret that they were afraid to reveal because they felt like if I say it, then I'm weak and you're going to think less of me. And, you know, that makes sense. And there were so many years where there were women that were doing everything they could to get that top job that they didn't want to talk about their aspirations to having a family and having children. And that was sort of seen as like a, not a weakness, but not a deficit, a demerit. You know what I mean? Like, I don't even know it was a deficit.

Kevin Goetz (41:39):

I remember so many women in the day saying, I'm pregnant, don't tell anybody.

Amy Baer (41:43):

Right. Of course. You know? Oh yeah. I mean, I remember that my mantra that I lived by was don't ask permission, but don't use it as an excuse. Right? I didn't want to talk about it, so I never said, oh, I can't make that meeting because I have a mommy and me class, or I have a parent-teacher conference. But I never asked permission. I never said, can I go? I just did it. And my career, and I talk about this to anybody who will listen to me, my career kind of plateaued for a while while I was having kids because there was a moment in time where Matt Tolmach and Doug Belgrad became co-presidents of Columbia. And I didn't, and there was no question, it was in part a function of the fact that…

Kevin Goetz (42:24):

Right. It's not to diminish them at all, it's just to say they were there. Yes.

Amy Baer (42:29):

Yeah. And I had just had my second child, but I also was able to sort of mind shift it and say, look, I can be the senior most executive for and with them. And then as my kids got older, I ended up getting an even bigger job.

Kevin Goetz (42:42):

You're incredible. Uh, <laugh>, what's Amy Baer's superpower?

Amy Baer (42:46):

I would say I am authentic and I am decent.

Kevin Goetz (42:52):

Those are indeed superpowers.

Amy Baer (42:54):

I think that that's probably what I would say. And going back to my father, I think that my father was decent, super decent, and he was extremely authentic. And that was modeled for me. I do everything I can to conduct myself that way in business. And it doesn't mean I'm not, you know, don't have moments of insecurity and vulnerability.

Kevin Goetz (43:13):

Or are a pushover in any way.

Amy Baer (43:14):

No, no, no. Definitely not. I also don't take anything personal in business. And, once you sort of…

Kevin Goetz (43:20):

What a great piece of advice for younger folks.

Amy Baer (43:21):

Well, once you learn that, it makes your life so much easier because nothing in business is personal. Nothing. I mean, we could get very meta and say nothing is really personal ever. But I would say specifically in business, nothing is personal. It's all about the business. Absolutely. I think that's another superpower just because it's very liberating. And once I was able to learn that it made my day-to-day a lot more enjoyable.

Kevin Goetz (43:45):

What's on the horizon that you're excited about before we break? What, tell us the most, the thing that makes you excited to get out of bed?

Amy Baer (43:54):

Oh my gosh.

Kevin Goetz (43:56):

Is there a particular project?

Amy Baer (43:57):

The thing I'm most excited about is that we have two movies for sure at Landline that are happening the first part of this year. And maybe more like we've got another three that we're in the process of packaging, one of which I so wish I could talk about because it is such a home run. And I'm going to tell you offline and I'm going to come back when we're making it. Okay. Okay. And we can talk about it more. Deal, deal. But I'm really excited about those and I really want to build, I believe that Landline has an opportunity to sort of be its own brand.

Kevin Goetz (44:25):

What's Landline? Was that an existing name by the way, or did you…?

Amy Baer (44:27):

No, we came up with it.

Kevin Goetz (44:29):

You came up with it together?

Amy Baer (44:30):

Yeah. Which was just like, like, if you know what a landline is, our movies are for you. Right? It's like, if you know, then you know.

Kevin Goetz (44:35):

I'm going to say throw me a landline. <laugh>.

Amy Baer (44:38):

Exactly. Yeah. I mean, I think what gets me excited for this year, in addition to those two movies that we're going to, one of which we've already announced, which is the Renée Zellweger movie, Back Nine, that Michael Patrick King wrote and is going to direct.

Kevin Goetz (44:50):

How fun is that.

Amy Baer (44:50):

I call it a coming of middle-aged movie.

Kevin Goetz (44:53):

Kind of a Bridget Jones.

Amy Baer (44:54):

Yeah. Well, ish. She plays a woman who's in her early fifties who had given up a career as a pro golfer to support her husband, who was a pro golfer. And in the top of the movie, she's empty nested, and she finds out that her husband has been cheating on her, and she throws him out and decides that she's going to go back to her golf career. And she starts a quest to join the LPGA.

Kevin Goetz (45:18):

Can I say two words? Yeah. Brian Banks.

Amy Baer (45:21):

<laugh>

Kevin Goetz (45:22):

Another movie you should check out guys, ladies, men, whoever is listening. It's a terrific picture, but the theme, very interesting.

Amy Baer (45:31):

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Kevin Goetz (45:32):

That's cool.

Amy Baer (45:33):

Yeah, so I think that the opportunity for Landline is something that I'm really excited about because I think in the same way that Jason Blum sort of cornered, you know, all things horror with Blumhouse, I think being able to own a lane…

Kevin Goetz (45:49):

Own a lane.

Amy Baer (45:50):

Is a really exciting opportunity.

Kevin Goetz (45:51):

What a great thing to end with. Amy, it's been such a pleasure having you here. Thank you so much for joining me.

Amy Baer (45:57):

I'm so happy to be here. Thank you for having me.

Kevin Goetz (46:01):

And to our listeners, listen, I hope you enjoyed today's interview. If you haven't seen them, check out so many of these movies that Amy has been mentioning today. There are so many good ones. For other stories like this one, please check out my book, Audienceology at Amazon or through my website at KevinGoetz360.com. And you can also follow me on my social media at KevinGoetz360. Next time on Don't Kill the Messenger, we will welcome post-production producer and supervisor, the amazing Nancy Kirhoffer. I thought I'd get a different perspective and bring that to you all on how screenings, research screenings, and the process works in that post-production area of a film's lifecycle. Until next time, I'm Kevin Goetz, and to you, our listeners, I appreciate you being part of the movie-making process. Your opinions matter.

Host: Kevin Goetz

Guest: Amy Baer

Producer:  Kari Campano