Podcast: Don't Kill the Messenger with Movie Research Expert Kevin Goetz 
Guest:  Director, Screenwriter, Producer, and Actor, Eli Roth
Interview Transcript:

00:02 - Announcer
There's a little-known part of Hollywood that most people are not aware of known as the audience test preview. The recently released book, Audienceology, reveals this for the first time. Our podcast series, Don't Kill the Messenger, brings this book to life, taking a peek behind the curtain. And now, join author and entertainment research expert, Kevin Goetz.

Kevin Goetz (00:24):
I'm thinking about today's guest, and I am not exaggerating. Words that immediately come to mind are diverse, driven, resourceful, definitely collaborative. I cannot stress enough how pivotal these qualities are in our industry, particularly for the younger folks coming up, so listen carefully. I have with me director, screenwriter, producer, and actor, Eli Roth. I would say you are maybe the most successful, or certainly one of the most successful, horror filmmakers working today, and also one of the most profitable, which I want to talk about. I'm going to make this short and sweet because we have a lot to talk about today. Eli's directorial credits include the cult classic Cabin Fever, the Hostel movies, and the recent hit Thanksgiving, and I'm so, so happy to have you here. Thanks so much for coming in, Eli.

Eli Roth:
My pleasure, Kevin. I always love talking to you. And we see each other at these test screenings, <laugh>, and it's like never enough time.

Eli Roth (01:26):
So I'm glad we get to have like a proper sit down conversation.

Kevin Goetz:
I am too, and the elephant in the room for me is the first time I saw you, I looked at you and I said you're beautiful. 
 

Eli Roth:
Oh, thank you <laugh>. Thank you, by the way, that's all any director really wants hear, not your scores were through the roof, just like you look great.

Kevin Goetz:
Actually, I usually think it's the other way around. I don't care what you think about me, but give me my good score.

Eli Roth:
No, no, no, no, no, no, no. Directors, secretly, that's all we really want to hear, so thank you.

Kevin Goetz:
Well, when I first saw you, I remember saying this guy’s really got charisma. I mean, you really have that it thing and you reminded me of so many guys I went to Hebrew school with. That's good.

Eli Roth (02:04):
Yes. Well, I am one of those guys you would've gone to Hebrew school with for sure.

Kevin Goetz:
And then, and then you sent me your bar mitzvah photo.

Eli Roth:
My bar mitzvah photo. The photo with the unibrow when I was too fat for a normal suit. Oh, they said, Mrs. Roth, your son's not exactly a large, he's what we call a husky. That was, yeah, it said it in the suit. It was actually sewn. It was in the size, it said husky.

Kevin Goetz:
That's gotta do a number on you.

Eli Roth:
Oh. It makes you go to the gym, like you turn into, by the way, all kids should go through that 'cause then you wind up like the Bear Jew in Inglorious Bastards. You're up at four in the morning going to the gym, eating protein, not, you know, going like, all right, I gotta, you know that that, well you have that husky mentality.

Kevin Goetz (02:38):
Dude, it worked. I'm just gonna say it worked.

Eli Roth:
Thank you.

Kevin Goetz:
Let's start at the beginning. In Massachusetts, you grew up with your parents and your two brothers. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. Let me, let me see if I'm good. 'cause I don't have this written down, if I remember, Gabriel and Adam.

Eli Roth:
Yes. Wow, that is good.

Kevin Goetz:
Okay, good. Yeah. And who's older, younger? 

Eli Roth:
Adam is, I'm the middlest. Adam is the oldest.

Kevin Goetz:
The middlest?

Eli Roth:
The middlest. Yes. Gabriel's the youngest. I'm the middlest.

Kevin Goetz:
I used to say the middlest. 

Eli Roth:
Oh really? 

Kevin Goetz:
Yeah. 

Eli Roth:
Okay. Middle child syndrome. Interesting.

Kevin Goetz:
It's very interesting. And a lot of successful kids came in as middle. Let me just tell you. So you began shooting films with them? Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>, correct?

Eli Roth:
Yes.

Kevin Goetz:
You made something like over 50, like short films.

Eli Roth:
Oh yeah. I mean we started.

Kevin Goetz:
What, what? Tell me ,that's insane.

Eli Roth:
Well, my mom, she starts painting, taking painting classes and I was obsessed with movies. like fanatically obsessed.

Kevin Goetz (03:26):
How and why?

Eli Roth:
It's like, why do you like your favorite music or food or color?

Kevin Goetz:
Well, what began that fascination with movies?

Eli Roth:
It's gotta be probably, I mean, the movie that affected me when I was a kid, when I was like three, I saw Pinocchio. That was the one that, you know, with Monstro and the kids going to Pleasure Island and being turned into jackasses. And it was actually, one reviewer pointed out that Hostel is essentially a remake of Pinocchio.

Kevin Goetz:
Oh, that's funny.

Eli Roth:
That the kids go Pleasure Island and that the, the factory where they're tortured is like the belly of the whale that they go to Pleasure Island and then they get turned into and it's like, it's all some dark crazy version of. So these things that get in your DNA, like I saw Star Wars in the theater when it was first out.

Eli Roth:

So I was completely obsessed. Like I thought it was real. I wanted it to be real. And I remember going to see Alien when I was eight years old with my dad. It was like Shabbat dinner. And I was like begging my dad. And he is like, fine, we'll go after we light the candles. And it was like me and my dad because my brothers were too scared to see it. I was probably eight years old. And I remember the credit said, produced by, you know, David Giler, Walter Hill. And I said, what does a productor do? My dad's like, no, it's producer. The producer has to find all the money. And then it said, directed by Ridley Scott. And I said, what does the director do? My dad said, well the director gets to spend all the money and tell everybody what to do. I was like, I think I want to be a director.

Kevin Goetz (04:47):
What did your dad do?

Eli Roth:
Well, my dad was a psychoanalyst and psychiatrist, but he had been to high school performing arts and was gonna be an actor.

Kevin Goetz:
He graduated from high school performing arts?

Eli Roth:
From performing arts. Yeah. And then he pivoted and went to medical school to be a psychiatrist. There were like producers that thought my dad was gonna be the next Marlon Brando. I mean he was at high school of performing arts when like the Actor’s Studio was right down the street. Wow. So he was between classes seeing James Dean and all these people hanging out. So he was really in New York theater and acting. And my mother's from New York and grew up going to the art museums. We were in Boston, like Boston is no city for an artist, but go to movies, watch movies.

Kevin Goetz:
Why did they end up in Boston?

Eli Roth:
Because they just thought it was too dangerous to raise their kids in New York.

(05:27):

Harold Klerman cast my dad in a national show, but my dad like couldn't do it.

Kevin Goetz:
I just wanna say Harold Clurman, for those who don't know, was one of the finest directors working. And he was part of the group theater with Lee Strasberg and yeah, Sanford Meisner, Stella Adler.

Eli Roth:
So my, my dad was right in that zone where he was gonna be the next guy.

Kevin Goetz:
So the apple doesn't fall far from the tree? 

Eli Roth:
Well, so they, I was super into it. My parents were always like encouraging it. They loved it.

Kevin Goetz:
So where'd you get your first camera?

Eli Roth:
Well my dad had a super eight camera and he's like, I'll show you how to use it and, and actually it was, my mom was painting with this woman named Lois Tarlow and she had a son, his name is D.L. Polanski, still teaches film.

(06:03):

And he was like 20 at the time or 19, but you know, he had a beard so I thought it could have been 40 for all I knew. And she found out he did animation and stop-frame animation, shot Super Eight films and said, would you teach? Can we pay you? Pay him, you know, and get a few other kids to start like a movie club where you'd make movies. And this, my mom puts us together and calls him and said, would you want to maybe.

Kevin Goetz:
How old were you?

Eli Roth:
Eight, nine. Like, do you wanna do like Tuesday and Thursday afternoons? We'll show you how to make animation. And I was watching Bugs Bunny going, how do I do Bugs Bunny? So he came over.

Kevin Goetz:
Oh wow.

Eli Roth:
And he showed us how to set up stop frame and he's like, this is how you draw.

(06:38):

And we would take masking tape and draw, do hundreds of drawings. He's like, today we're gonna do a drawing. So have your drawings ready for Thursday. We're gonna shoot them. Then we're gonna send the Super Eight film to a lab in Seattle. Now we're gonna do stop frame. And he taught us how to shoot, how to frame.

Kevin Goetz:
How long were these movies?

Eli Roth:
I mean these are like two minute, three minute animated shorts. I mean, the first one we noticed that the movie camera made a click every time you did the stop frame and go click, click, click. So I peeled in orange backwards and I called it A Clickwork Orange. Like the first thing I shot, it was actually the first one was called Facelifts, where we do like morphing different faces. And then we did A Clickwork Orange, then we tried doing Claymation and the Star Wars action figures fighting the He-Man action figures.

Kevin Goetz (07:17):
And this is all through grade school? Junior high, high school?

Eli Roth:
Well this is by the time I'm 11, I had a retro, or 10 or 11, like in fifth grade I remember doing a retrospective. I brought in the projector and set it up and my teacher, the kids in the class were just like, what? Like, this is what you do? And then my dad got one of the first generation VHS cameras and then the other camera, it was like the thing where you have half the VCR and the giant camera. It looked like a news reporter-size camera. And I would start shooting horror movies. First one was Splatter on the Linoleum where we're like taking a chainsaw, holding the saw and the ketchup bottle. And I'm just playing. Then I borrow another VCR.

Kevin Goetz:
Did you get your actors, the neighbor kids?

Eli Roth (07:56):
Yeah, it was all, all of my friends. It would be like my brothers. They'd be the actors.

Kevin Goetz:
Did they stay in the business by the way? Your brothers?

Eli Roth:
Well, yeah, but Gabe is, my brother's been producing independent films and there’s a whole documentary they're doing in the John Wick series that he's producing. My older brother did not, he had worked kind of in and outta the business, but is out of it now.

Kevin Goetz:
They must be so proud of you for following in your father's footsteps in a way, right?

Eli Roth:
Yeah.

Kevin Goetz:
But then also just what a legacy, what pride? Your parents, are they still around?

Eli Roth:
Oh yeah, they are. Absolutely. I mean, my mom just wrote me on Sunday that I was the answer in the crossword puzzle in the Boston Globe that it said Thanksgiving Director Roth. And she's like, I'm glad they didn't put horror director Roth 'cause you're more than a horror director.

Kevin Goetz (08:33):

Oh God, I'm so sorry. Let me, what's her name?

Eli Roth: 

Cora.

Kevin Goetz:

Cora, let me just apologize for introducing your son as one of the most successful horror directors. Instead, I'm just saying one of the most successful directors. And having worked with him very intimately on this last film in particular, he is everything that a director embodies. So thank you. Call out to you.

Eli Roth: 

Well, that's all right. I mean, look, it's funny. The blood stains your eyes, you know, in a horror movie, you get the blood in your eyes and all you can see is red. Like, if a horror movie does its job, the scares or the shocks should be so effective, you kind of can't see anything else. And then when you watch it again, you know it's coming. And the haunted house is never as scary the second time through, that's when you can see the filmmaking.

Kevin Goetz (09:12):
That's when you can see the acting. That's when you can see the score. You can notice the photography, you can see it again and again and notice the, the writing, the character, the, the performances, the subtle details. But you know, the intent is to scare. So that's like, it should be such a shocking experience that it almost blinds you to everything else.

You know what I find fascinating? You have this ability, and all the great horror filmmakers have it, where you can know how to take the audience's point of view. And it's not easy to do when the actor, let's say, goes into the refrigerator. 

Eli Roth:

Yeah.

Kevin Goetz:

And the refrigerator opens. Oh my god. When they close the refrigerator, the actors, but there's nothing there. 

Eli Roth:

Yes. 

Kevin Goetz:

And you have the sting and then as the actor turns around, the killer's right in their face.

Eli Roth:

Right. 

Kevin Goetz:

Like, where do you learn to do that?

(09:58):
I've told so many directors or tried to communicate that this is what I suggest you think about, and yet they don't really get it. Is that just from making so many of these movies?

Eli Roth: 

I think it's an inherent sensibility.

Kevin Goetz:

But have you scared yourself?

Eli Roth: Yeah, yeah, yeah..

Kevin Goetz: 

Kind of like, on your set? 

Eli Roth: 

Well first of all thank you, but I think that James Wan does these like freaky, in The Conjuring, as soon as they do the clap clap game, you're like, oh no, we're gonna, you know, a ghost is coming. Like, he's very good at setting up those..

Kevin Goetz:

Very good at that.

Eli Roth: 

You know, those creepy, tense, supernatural scares. Whereas I'm just like, this is the worst thing that could ever happen to you. I can't believe someone's about to do that to another person. Like, not that I don't love supernatural.

Kevin Goetz:

You mean I'm not gonna give it a spoiler alert, but you mean roasting a body, roasting someone in an oven?

(10:45):
Yeah. You Yeah. Or just like Thanksgiving dinner, or a human Turkey at the Thanksgiving dinner or, you know, doing the, the torture stuff. You know, the cutting up the eyes and Hostel. Like I think of like, what, what would be my worst nightmare of someone doing, of why they would wanna do that to another person. You know, I'm more like at the Texas Chainsaw Massacre and even though I, I want to try some supernatural.

Kevin Goetz:

But you know how to do jump scares. 

Eli Roth:

But the jump scares too. Yeah. 

Kevin Goetz:

I mean you did it in Thanksgiving.

Eli Roth

Yeah, multiple times. Yeah. 

Kevin Goetz:

I could think of even that when the young girl’s in the refrigerator.

Eli Roth:

That's the fun, you know, something where someone's reaching the finger towards that. Look, I love these movies and I watch all of them. Good ones, bad ones mediocre ones. I just, I'm like a garbage disposal.

(11:24):
I'll see anything. And I think that you have to know what's been done before, but also have kind of a playful sense of humor where you really are fucking with the audience, but in a fun way. In a way that they, they trust you but they don't trust you. They know they're in good hands, but they know they're in the hands of a lunatic.

Kevin Goetz:

Hold on. What's your father's name?

Eli Roth:

Sheldon.

Kevin Goetz:

Okay. Sheldon. Sheldon, I'd like to ask you a question. As the psychoanalyst you are, what is going on in your son's mind? Do you ever think about that? Sheldon, this is a question for Sheldon, like how he has become so twisted in his communication of these gross, horrific images. What would he say?

Eli Roth:

Well, my father, first of all, we could call him and he would take over the podcast, could answer that question for two hours.

(12:11):
That's of course been the first question people ask my dad. And I've asked him.

Kevin Goetz:

What does he say?

Eli Roth:

What he'll say is that it's my way of misbehaving that I was the best-behaved kid. That when I grew up, not only did I not get in trouble, I was so well-behaved. My parents actually were concerned there was something wrong that I never ever did anything wrong.

Kevin Goetz:

Brilliant grades, graduated summa laude from NYU.

Eli Roth:

Thank you. I did my homework. I did what I was supposed to.

Kevin Goetz:

I'm telling you, I'm getting it, it’s unbelievable.

Eli Roth:

I was the kid who, if the teacher had some emergency and had to leave the class, they'd look at me and go, Eli, make sure no one gets killed, Eli, you're in charge.

Kevin Goetz:

Oh, that's classic.

Eli Roth:

Like, not that I wanted that.

Kevin Goetz:

This is great.

(12:50):

Eli Roth:

Then I was the neighborhood babysitter. Like parents are like, okay, we can leave our kids with Eli. He's responsible, he's nice, he does like everything. If there's a problem, he knows how to handle it. I was a camp counselor for three summers and I always say that was the best.

Kevin Goetz:

You know who you're describing?

Eli Roth:

Who's that?

Kevin Goetz:

Jeffrey Dahmer.

Eli Roth:

Oh, well, yeah. Without the eating people. I dunno if he was a camp counselor.

Kevin Goetz: 

No, I mean I'm, I've, I'm all kidding aside, but I am. That's really what you're, but you know, you're kind of, you're talking about the person that is the perfect citizen.

Eli Roth:

And my dad was going to Israel and talking to like survivors. It was in the camps when they were a kid and they were come over to our house and don't ask them about the tattoos. Like, you know, we grew up with this crazy holocaust education.

(13:27):

So you're in suburbia, Newton, Massachusetts, which is the safest city in America. Nothing goes wrong. People don't lock their doors. And you're hearing these stories about how Kristallnacht and then the Nazis came in and then selection and the ovens. And you're just like, how you trying to process all of this? Like how can life be so perfect? And then all of a sudden people are gassing each other and turning them into furniture. It's like, what are you talking about? The world doesn't make any sense. So then you watch horror movies, all of a sudden these ideas and things you think about are all there in this safe way. Like my mother is painting. So paintings aren't violence, a representation of violence, you know, movies aren't violence. It's a representation of violence. And I really was interested in, I used to get very freaked out at horror movies. I used to throw up when I saw them.

(14:08):

Like when my dad…

Kevin Goetz:

But yet you were drawn to them.

Eli Roth:

But yet I was drawn to them. And then I had to get over the understanding that this is makeup, this is a makeup effect. There's something in my brain. There was a neuropsychiatrist, Dr. Jim Fallon at UC Davis who, who studied my brain. And we did it for discovery. We put my brain through an MRI to show me violent images, to understand why do I think of scary movies or why am I not affected?

Kevin Goetz:

Like what age were you?

Eli Roth:

Well this was like 10 years ago they did this. And what they found was that most people's brains are like kind of just normal, normal. They'll see a violent image and starts to spike. Whereas my brain is spiking at everything all the time. He's like, you have a one in a thousand brain where everything, every sound, the colors, the imagery, you're just like overprocessing everything.

(14:50):

So when there's something so violent, you, you have such a strong emotional reaction. My frontal lobe shuts it out. He's like, you're kind of a part-time psychotic. Like, I'm like, what? He goes, have you ever noticed you have like a shut-off switch when you're working? I'm like, yeah. Like people say that if I have to make a film or if I'm writing and everything else is going on, it's like, it doesn't matter. I'm making the movie. This is the only thing that matters. It's a shoot day. The world could be on fire, everything could be going wrong. I'm like, it doesn't matter. We're shooting.

Kevin Goetz:

Do you lose your shit a lot?

Eli Roth:

No, I don't. But I say like once a movie, you're allowed to throw a fit. That's it. You get one one per film and then that's in a 40 day shoot or a 60 day shoot.

(15:26):

And part of the problem is…

Kevin Goetz:

Is it usually in the beginning to show people like, listen, I can go there so don't make me go there or don't allow me.

Eli Roth:

In the early days, you'd wanna be everyone's buddy, but then you always have to fire somebody. And that's the thing where it's like where you just fire them and replace them. You do it. If someone does a bad job, that's what I mean.

Kevin Goetz:

You don't just do that for?

Eli Roth:

I don't do it for show.

Kevin Goetz:

A lot of people do.

Eli Roth:

Oh yeah, no, directors have told me that. That's a trick that they do. I know that they'll fire someone and I understand that. Like they'll have someone so do that, you know, you, you're a general and you've gotta keep the troops. But there are other ways of, you know, commanding respect.

Kevin Goetz (16:00):

I was just gonna say, why do people do that? You are working in the most closed community where you can't have people breaking ranks and not being up to par with everyone else. So there is a reason why one fires someone early on, on a set?

Eli Roth:

Yeah. You get dickheads who challenge you. And these aren't people that last in the business. These are people that are like, kind of been around for a while. Will work on other things and they'll be like, don't you fucking tell me what to do? And so you, so you're just like, here's the thing, there's, if you ask someone to do something and they do it wrong, that's a screw up. If they do it twice, then it's a fuck up. If they do it three times, then that's someone who's out to sabotage, to show you that they don't want to.

(16:41):

And that shit spreads. You gotta cut it out like a cancer.

Kevin Goetz:

I run a company..

Eli Roth:

You know how it is. 

Kevin Goetz:

I'm very much aware of that.

Eli Roth:

So you have that like, like if people feel that the person in charge isn't paying attention, then no one's gonna do their jobs or they, they try to challenge, like it's, it's very strange things. They challenge you because you're younger, because they wanna show you that they're the boss, that, that you don't know what the fuck you're doing. You're, you're dealing with ego. So a lot of the times now, hopefully you're 20 years in, you can kind of sniff those people out very early on in the process. And you go, look, this isn't working. Or if someone is just not listening to you or disrespecting you, you just fire them. You don't even think twice about it.

(17:20):

And you fire their whole team and they're gone. And then everyone's like, most people are there because they wanna work with you and they wanna do a good job. That's 99% of the people. But every production, there's someone, so I know like Ruggero Deodato, who was director of Cannibal Holocaust was the AD for Rossellini and for Sergio Corbucci. And he told me that back in the day he'd have 10,000 extras and it was his job to like organize 'em and keep 'em quiet. You know, 10,000 extras and there's like one or two guys. So how do you keep 10,000 Italians quiet? He said someone would be like, he's like, okay, everyone. The guy was like, please be quiet. And then someone would talk and he would scream at him and go, you motherfucker, get the fuck off this set and what's your name? I see your name, you are never gonna work.

(18:04):

I'm, do you know what I'm calling every fucking casting director and every producer and you will never work on another movie set ever again because everyone knows me and I'm gonna give them your name. So as soon as you try and, and he's like, he did no, he's like, and then everyone's like dead silent and listen. He goes, he goes, they didn't know this guy my friend, I put him there at every movie <laugh>. And then he said he would do that when a new actor would show up on set to see him as if like a new actor was their first day shooting. He, they walk in and he'd be in the middle of scream. He's going, you you piece you're fired. Oh hey, I'll be with you in one second. <laugh>, you motherfucker get the fuck off my set and be like, hi.

Kevin Goetz:

And set the tone.

Eli Roth (18:38): 

And they were like, whoa. Right. So yeah, you had to do, you know, I understand why directors play those tricks, but I'm at the point now where it's like, if someone is a dick, I just tell the cast that I tell anyone, I'm like, look man, life's too short. I'm an actor. I know what the you're doing. I'm in the makeup trailer. I hear everything. If you're here to be a douchebag, you're done. I will play your part myself. Mm-Hmm <affirmative> and I'll, I'm the writer, I'm the producer, I'm the director and I'm an actor. So you're coming in here because you better bring good energy, 'cause if you're not, I'm gonna fire you. 

Kevin Goetz:

Yes. 

Eli Roth:

I will send you home and we'll, and that's it. I won't even make drama about it. I won't make a scene. You'll be on a plane the next day.

(19:16):

I don't care. I'm too smart to, I know already how I'm going to like, if any of you cause a problem, yeah, I've already got it figured out. But hopefully you don't get those people you check with other directors. 

Kevin Goetz:

But the fact is, you have to come in with the notion that it could happen. Let me ask you something. You talk about 10,000 extras. You are known for really endorsing practical effects.

Eli Roth:

Yeah. Real people, real effects, real props, real blood and guts.

Kevin Goetz:

As opposed to special effects. Tell me about that.

Eli Roth:

Well, it depends what you're doing. Because on a movie like Borderlands, which will be out in August, this a year of special, it's so much special effects that you're like looking at this spaceship, looking at this environment, looking at this battle, look at this gun blast, looking at this the way this, it's real people, but there's so much CG 'cause you're creating a fantasy world that's 3000 years in the future on another planet.

(20:06):

I don't need to do that in Thanksgiving. I don't want that in Thanksgiving. I don't want CGI extras. Look what happened in that movie Prom Pact, which with like, they used CGI extras in the crowd and it just, they had like wrong hands. Like people lost their minds. It was so weird. 'cause they don't have it down yet.

Kevin Goetz:

Part of your fan base is really behind you for using practical effects. Well, I think that's actually something that you're known for and it's a really positive thing. It's almost like Tom Cruise doing his own stunts.

Eli Roth:

Well, it is, but also to, to be fair, you shouldn't notice the CGI. The CGI should be invisible. I mean, I love practical effects. I always say do it practical until it's impractical. Like if you're, if you physically can't move something like I want to decapitate a head, I'm gonna do it practically.

(20:50):

But the way to do it practically is you have five puppeteers, someone pumping the blood, a head on a string, and it took six takes to get the decapitation right. But I also know that like I could see a piece of the tube in the neck so I could paint that out. This shot, the string caught the reflection. So I can paint out the string. And in the background on the floor, you could see the hose where I was pumping the blood, so you can paint that out. So there's certain things like that. Like when I slice the body in half, the speed of the lid wasn't, when the girl’s in the garbage disposal, I'm puppeteering it. And the way the body is.

Kevin Goetz:

Are you literally?

Eli Roth:

No, no, no. I'm, we have a whole team of puppeteers.

Kevin Goetz:

But are you like directing the puppeteers?

(21:30):

Eli Roth:

Oh, we've done a million tests and I'm looking at the legs and this and, and then they, they slam the lid and the body drops a second later and the blood sort of squirted, the force of the lid isn't strong enough. So you do a clean pass, you do effect. So you're doing it for real, but you're also enhancing it with CGI. And so I don't like to pretend, I don't want to insult the artists that are helping make it. I want it to look and feel as real and tactile as possible. Also, the great thing with blood spraying, like when you throw the girl on the saw blade and the blood sprays, you tell the actors it's gonna spray. But that's, we're, we're dowsing 'em. And I'm like, you know, I'm giving them the signal, like, turn it up, give 'em the fire hose.

(22:08):

And you see that reaction and they're not, and, and the acting is different. There's certain things I like to do. One, I like to shoot with one camera whenever possible. And that's a big no-no in Hollywood. 

Kevin Goetz:

What? Why?

Eli Roth:

Everyone is like, if I'm doing the riot scene and you have like a hundred people, you can have multiple cameras, right?

Kevin Goetz:

But why would you only use one camera?

Eli Roth:

Because you don't need more than one camera. And I'll tell you why. In television, you have to shoot with two cameras. Now let's say we're doing a scene here, you have the cameras over there, it's getting a wide shot. But we also want to get your closeup right. We're lit for a wide. So if you put a camera there and it's on telephoto, the image is flat and the lighting is shit.

Kevin Goetz:

Well also, now you can push in on a closeup on a wide, right?

(22:48): 

I mean you can, there's ways to do that.

Eli Roth:

You can do it, but it's not a true closeup. It's a wide to a medium that you've blown up or you put a telephoto lens. The lighting is flat. Now let's say I take the camera, I wanna shoot your closeup. If I'm shooting, if right now, if we wanna shoot the wide, we're lit for the wide, we're lit for the plants. We’re lit for the lamp, right? The whole studio. But your face isn't really lit for a closeup. You can do it and see you closer, but that's not gonna give you best.

Kevin Goetz:

I thought you'd want it just for things to cut away to like, not necessarily great lit, but just so I have, I can just play with that.

Eli Roth

Okay, but when do you use a closeup when it's an important emotional moment, right?

(23:22):

So what do you want? I'm gonna move the camera here. So the camera is now where the microphone is, and now we're gonna spend 20 minutes or half an hour adjusting the light for your closeup. So now all of a sudden when we cut to you, I'm seeing your eyes and that's why you're in a closeup to know what you're thinking. So when it's that moment where you ask the question that you weren't supposed to ask, and you wanna see my reaction trying to hide it and think like, that's not gonna work if we have a wide shot with two telephoto lenses, if I put it here and put there, now the acting's better. 

Kevin Goetz:

Mm-Hmm <affirmative>. Mm-Hmm <affirmative>.

Eli Roth:

Now the audience is going, I like this character because I can see what they're thinking. They're so much more connected to the characters. Wow. And it's as simple as taking the damn camera and moving it closer and lighting properly for a closeup.

(24:06):

You could set up three cameras, then you burn through the pages and you go on. Right? But like the acting isn't as good. Now there are masters, there's Ridley Scott who can shoot with eight cameras and place it there and he knows how to do it. And he's a genius at it. I'm not saying it can't be done, but I'm telling you, for me, and I watched Tarantino.

Kevin Goetz:

Does Tarantino shoot with multiple?

Eli Roth:

We shoot one camera, he's like, really? Well you don't need more. It's like, yeah, it's, you're gonna blow something up. You're gonna burn something to the ground that's gonna take a full day. Yeah. You're blowing up a city, you're burning down a ranch. Yeah. You wanna get multiple cameras in case something breaks to have a backup. You might get a moment or two that's like, whoa, okay. It's not like a rule.

(24:40):

But if you're doing a drama scene, a dialogue scene, a kill scene, and you wanna be with that actor and be with their fear and watch the audience jump and people are like, wow, I really like the characters. Yes, you have. Like why get these great actors, why spend hours doing makeup? Why put them in that costume? Why set them in that set just to what? Spray it down with a couple telephoto lenses. It looks like shit, it looks like television. I'm not saying television is bad, but it, it gives you the same emotional thing in television. You're watching it on a TV in your house. This is for a theater and you're in a cinema. So to make it cinematic, people in the audience have to connect with them and feel them and think what they're thinking. It's so simple. And you can't believe the shit you get from studios going, why is he only shooting with one camera?

(25:27):

It's gonna take longer. Now he's doing three takes in the closeup. You already got it in the wide, can't you stand on?

Kevin Goetz:

And you've proven them wrong on that, that, am I right or wrong?

Eli Roth:

Over and over. Over and over. But they come on set and they're so used to multiple cameras. Right, right, right. They're like, it's like become a mandate that you better be shooting with at least two cameras because we got a blah, blah, blah. Then you can, you can get the medium and the close at the same time. Well, maybe. It's not gonna be as good. Why pay, you know, all that money to get a movie star? Why get an actor that's won the Academy Award for best actor to film 'em in a media with a tight lens. You put the, and also, let me tell you something. The actor acts differently when you take the time to move the camera this close and light it.

(26:06):

They just, they they, they're like, oh yeah, this is a director who gets it. They're, they're, they're moving the camera close to me. And they're not just trying to spray it down and cover it. They're like, oh, this director gets it. I'm gonna look good. And they're bringing it for me. So I'm gonna bring it for them and I'm bringing it for the audience because I know they're taking the time to really light a proper closeup. 

Kevin Goetz:

When we come back, we're gonna talk about individual films. This is so fascinating. Stay with us. We'll be back in a moment.

Announcer (26:37):

Get a glimpse into a secret part of Hollywood that few are aware of and that filmmakers rarely talk about in the new book Audienceology by Kevin Goetz. Each chapter is filled with never-before-revealed inside stories and interviews from famous studio chiefs, directors, producers, and movie stars, bringing the art and science of audienceology into focus. Audienceology, How Moviegoers Shape the Films We Love, from Tiller Press at Simon and Schuster. Available now.

Kevin Goetz (27:09):

We're back with Eli Roth. Eli, I want to talk about some specific movies. I'd like to start with Cabin Fever because what was, I don't know, a movie that probably I would imagine did not test very well because it was a mixed genre.

Eli Roth:

The worst testing movie in the history of Lionsgate. Tested a 19.

Kevin Goetz:

Oh my God. Top two boxes? <laugh>.

Eli Roth:

No, no, no, no. Well, yeah, 19 top two boxes.

Kevin Goetz:

Oh yeah. Which ended up being probably one of the most profitable movies. Not to mention the fact that it's a cult classic. How did that happen?

Eli Roth:

Well, Cabin Fever, you know, we sold it at the Toronto Film Festival and then we.

Kevin Goetz:

Oh, you had made it independently?

Eli Roth:

I made it independently for a million and a half dollars.

And where'd you get your money for that?

Eli Roth:

From like friends and family?

(27:55):

From an investor named Sam Frelic from my parents put in $10,000. Aunt Gladys put in $5,000. This group from Connecticut put in $350,000. It was like we were shooting and raising, we had one of our financiers pulled out three days before shooting and we just kept going. So we would give people their checks on Friday, raise money all weekend and say don't cash till Monday. Then they cash it and have 24 hours to, I mean it was like duct tape and chewing gum is how we made that movie. We got through most of the shoot, the union flipped the movie. We'd go back cut for free, giving people backend, then raise another $350,000. We needed $700,000 to finish the movie, 350 to get through the shoot another three, 400 to get through post, cutting and eventually we had like a rough cut of the movie on a videotape.

(28:40):

And there were these people that were gonna put in the money for the sound mix. And they told us they were, they hadn't wired it yet. We were on the stage of the sound mix. They like, we can't start at Nova Star. They like, we can't.

Kevin Goetz:

Did you have a bond on the movie?

Eli Roth:

Oh no. There was, there was nothing because was independent finance.

Kevin Goetz:

Because independent finance.

So they were like, so basically we found out that the guy was showing the VHS to his 12-year-old son waiting to see what his kid thought. And the 12-year-old goes, this is better than American Pie. And he goes, all right, I'll wire the money. And then we were already accepted to the Toronto Film Festival. We were day 12. We were like the 12. We were like the dead last movie. 'cause we needed the time to sound mix.

(29:16):

And I remember taking the print from the lab 'cause it was a 35 print, then carrying it on the plane, getting to the festival, running to a friend of mine who's working at, you know, Dimension Miramax. He's like, dude, everyone who's seen your movie said it's brilliant. I was like, wow, this industry's, literally was the only person who'd watch it was me at the lab.

Kevin Goetz:

Of course they probably beat people.

Eli Roth:

And then we sold it.

Kevin Goetz:

Because they know where to go. Where to get early reads. 

Eli Roth:

Right.

Kevin Goetz:

It was, that's a really smart thing to do.

Eli Roth:

Well they, they, it was buzz it was like, you know the internet had been saying, oh man, Cabin Fever sounds fun. It's an old-school horror movie. And we, we saw that.

Kevin Goetz:

But it was comedic. 

Eli Roth:

Well it was fun, but it was also, that was hard. Right.

(29:50):

You know, I remember the first test screening that was where they wanted to recut everything. Lionsgate did not have a ton of experience with horror at the time. Right. They only, they did four wide releases a year. We were the widest release they ever did at the time. 

Kevin Goetz:

Oh God. 

Eli Roth:

And we wound up being their top-grossing movie of 2003.

Kevin Goetz:

But where it really got cult status was home entertainment.

Eli Roth:

Yeah. Well those are the days we had VHS and DVDs and the sales were insane.

Kevin Goetz:

Insane, right?

Eli Roth:

It hit that peak where people, every Tuesday would go to Walmart and buy a stack of, you know, they, they were like, yeah, we, we shipped a million and a half DVDs.

Kevin Goetz:

You still get checks on that?

Eli Roth:

Well, in Cabin Fever we had to give it all away. Yeah. I still get checks on Cabin Fever and Hostel.

Kevin Goetz:

Do do your parents still?

(30:27): Eli Roth:

Yeah, they do.

Kevin Goetz:

They still do they really?

Eli Roth:

Yeah, yeah, yeah. My, my parents still get checks. Aunt Gladys, she just passed away.

Kevin Goetz: Oh, Aunt Gladys.

Eli Roth:

And I had to deal with like, oh, Gladys, the last, you know, Cabin Fever check that went to her. What do we want to do? Like, it's so funny that that years later, you know, 'cause all the actors did it for nothing and took a point. Like everyone still gets checks. Like even symbolically…

Kevin Goetz:

Beautiful. 

Eli Roth:

You know, we shot it in 2002, we had no money. Like years later. Even if it's a thousand dollars being like, hey man, can you believe it? It's still works.

Kevin Goetz:

You know, I was an actor and so I get residuals to this day. 

Eli Roth:

Isn’t it wild? 

Kevin Goetz:

Lots of residual. I mean, I don't get a lot of residuals, but I get lots of them.

Eli Roth:

Yes. 

Kevin Goetz:

At 3 cents, 27 cents.

(31:04):

Yeah. You know, aren't those great? You, I mentioned this on this podcast before there used to be that bar in Studio City called Residuals. Yeah. If you brought anything under a buck, they gave you a free drink. 

Eli Roth:

Free drink. Yeah. Free drink. Trust me, I still get those. It's funny, it's wild when something you did that it's still, you know, everyone doubted it or you thought you were crazy and then every now and then you get a huge check for something, you're like, whoa, this thing is still making, that's crazy.

Kevin Goetz:

Where did you get your SAG card?

Eli Roth:

I got my SAG card. God, it must, it might have been on, yeah, it was, the Mirror has Two Faces 'cause I was working for Judy Fixler, who was doing the extras casting. So I was signing in every, I would be there.

Kevin Goetz:

But extras don't get SAG cards.

(31:42):

Eli Roth:

But there was a certain number, the extras do because they had to waiver because you, you had to do like 150 SAG and then 230 non-sag. You, it was classroom scenes. And so, when I went back they were like, you were allowed to Taft Hartley, you could waiver a certain number of people. And I had been working for her and I was just like, and Streisand put a camera on me in a closeup and like someone's like, you look like her son. And like there's a whole scene where in the Mirror has Two Faces. And then I was on like New York One News and like Talk Soup as the worst extra ever. They're like, look at these extras. 'cause Streisand puts, she's three cameras. She puts a camera on me and she's like, you love this professor, like, she's like hardcore directing me.

(32:19):

I'm like, yeah, talking about Puccini. I'm like, yeah, Puccini, Puccini. 

Kevin Goetz:

I love her so much. 

Eli Roth:

It was, it was great. But I remember that like, you know, I had been working for this producer Fred Zollo kind of before and Fred when he was married to Barbara Broccoli at the time. That's where I met Colleen Camp and all this like it was, it's where I met David Lynch. He was doing Quiz Show and Angels in America on Broadway. I was there opening Night of Angels and on the set of Quiz Show watching Redford direct Scorsese and with Ray Fiennes, like it was a wild, I was 20 or 21 years old. It was amazing.

Kevin Goetz:

That was a terrific picture.

Eli Roth:

It was great to be there on set, watching them do that whole thing. Start to finish. And then I, I think might have my Quiz Show crew jacket, like my first crew jacket I ever got.

(32:57):

I remember making more money as an extra. I was like, I sat here as an extra, it was like a 16-hour day. I was like, I think I made $400 in a day for sitting there. I was like, I can't believe this. And then in Green Inferno, I went back to the same room where I had shot at Dodge Hall for Streisand, I was like, and I reenacted my Streisand moment, the actors.

Kevin Goetz:

Oh, and you also did a lot of odd jobs or everything. Survival jobs. Like Howard Stern's assistant on Private Parts.

Eli Roth:

Yeah. On Private Parts. Well they were, well everyone knew.

Kevin Goetz:

It was such a good movie. It was so fun. Betty Thomas, man call out.

Eli Roth:

I was, I was in it. They put me in it for a moment, but my scene got cut. But it was so, it was wild. They were like basically I'd worked on.

Kevin Goetz:

That probably was from the test process.

(33:34):

Eli Roth:

Yeah, for sure it was. For sure it was. But no one would say, all right, I've watched a lot of basketball, let me just go play for the Lakers. Or I've seen every episode of Grey's Anatomy. Let me just go operate on someone. But everybody's like, I watch movies, I can be a director. And I've always said, you know, you've got to get onset experience. You have to. You have no idea what actually happens or how to make a movie.

Eli Roth:

So, but what did you do on Inglourious Basterds?

Eli Roth:

Well that was amazing Inglourious Basterds.

Kevin Goetz:

First of all, you were so good in that.

Eli Roth:

Thank you, Kevin. Appreciate it. I wasn't fishing but I'll take the compliment.

Kevin Goetz:

But I'm gonna say you also got to work with Quentin Tarantino and that had to be marvelous learning experience.

Eli Roth:

That was incredible. Well Quentin, look, I mean to go back to Private Parts, I was a production assistant, but the producers knew me and liked me and they were like, oh Eli's, you could kind of tell who was serious.

(34:18):

They're like, oh, Eli went, I'd gone to film school and I had my student academy award for my short film, but I was getting coffee.

Kevin Goetz:

And you got that charisma.

Eli Roth:

I was like, I was like, I'll do anything. And I remember learning that on Quiz Show. Like I'm their first one there loading the trucks at five in the morning, last one till 11:30 at night. Being like, what else do you need? What else? Okay great. You need me here at five. See you tomorrow. Nothing, no questions asked. Done. If you asked me it was done. And they would pair me like, Raquel Welch needs apple juice. Like Raquel Welch at the time was not <laugh> the easiest. She's nice to me. I was just so happy to be around Raquel Welch. You could put me around any actor, whatever mood they were in.

(34:52):

I was like, sure, no problem. Whatever you want. I remember being in Tompkins Square Park at 1:30 in the morning filming in a building and there's homeless people fighting in Tompkins Square Park. It's when the East Village was super dangerous.

Kevin Goetz:

And they were like deal with it. 

Eli Roth: 

In January. And they go, Eli, go take care of it. Now I have to walk into Tompkins Square Park and deal with like a brawl with homeless people. 

Kevin Goetz:

That's a scene from The Bear. 

Eli Roth:

So do you know what I do? I go to catering and I go, how much soup? Give me like a bunch of soup. And I walk out there with like 20 soups into the middle of the fight of like drug addicts fighting. And they go, they just stop 'cause I'm so outta place. I'm like, I'm so sorry to bother you. And they're just like, what?

(35:26):

And I'm like, we're filming a TV show up there and we have all this extra food and I don't know what to do with it. Do you guys want any? And they were like, yeah, like soup? And so all the homeless people, I'm like, sure. And I'm like, here we have extra candy bars. Thank you so much. I didn't wanna throw it out. I thought maybe you guys would be hungry.

Kevin Goetz:

Resourceful, resourceful.

Eli Roth:

And then they go, and then they were like, do you want us to be quiet? I go, well only when we're shooting. I, I don't think it's a problem If we're not shooting, they go, we'll be quiet. And I'm like, so it's stay on the room. I'm like, Ron, cut. Okay, we're good. And that was it. I would go guys with construction, I'd be like, give me the ice cream. I'd walk out with these guys in the middle of Fifth Avenue cutting it up in the sun.

(36:03):

Like I'm so sorry, we're filming in there and we have all this extra ice cream. Can you guys help us out? And they go, yeah. They're like, are we making noise? I go, only when we're rolling. They go, we'll stop. We don't care. Let's have ice cream. But it was all about like just disarming people and in ways that doing that kind of, those jiujitsu Yoda moves to get people to kind of cooperate. So, on Private Parts, they're like, who can we leave Howard with? He doesn't want to drive home at night. We're shooting at Silver Cup Studios. We built an apartment for him. He wants to shoot and go to sleep 'cause he has to get up at five to do his radio show. Who can we leave with Howard that we know can just kind of handle anything? And they're like, just put Eli with him.

(36:41):

So I would, I would show up at wrap, watch him filming with Mary McCormick, who I knew at the time. I was friends with Mary and like Howard. And it was just like.

Kevin Goetz:

I bet you guys are still friends.

Eli Roth:

Oh, he's had me on the show a few times. Super supportive.

Kevin Goetz:

Let me just say something. I think he is so talented. It was amazing. Loved him. I've always liked that guy. And he's loved him. He's actually extremely fair. He was a mensch and decent.

Eli Roth:

No, he was great to everybody. We all loved him. It was a dream job. So that's when I work on my scripts and writing. And it was always at night. Write at night. Yeah. We'd sit there all night 'cause I was like, no, this is the perfect job.

Kevin Goetz:

And you were writing Cabin Fever then?

(37:12):

Eli Roth:

Yeah, I had a draft of it written. I was rewriting and working on some other stuff. But yeah, I was writing Cabin Fever and then, you know, and then so with Hostel, Quentin loved Cabin Fever and he read Hostel. He's like, this is good, but it can be better. And we, we kind of, he sat down with me and we went through it and he is like, okay, if you and I were in this situation, he's like, some of this feels like movie convenience. I'm gonna call bullshit. He's like, this guy doesn't know how to shoot a gun. How, what would he do? Like how would you get out of it? 

Kevin Goetz:

Those kind of details. 

Eli Roth:

Yeah. It's like he's like, it's gotta, he's like, it's the minutia. The minutia of the factory. That's what he's like, you've gotta think through every detail. I'm a customer, I go there.

(37:43):

What? Take me through an entire day of what that process like. Does someone meet you? Do you hand them cash? Is it handled beforehand? Do they drive you? Is there a changing room? Like, and I'm like all these kind of things that I never thought. It's like you, it's gotta be a real world for everything. That's like all of my characters. You gotta know them like your best. Mia Wallace doesn't know she's a small character in her mind it's the Mia Wallace movie. If she's in 20 minutes, you think of Anthony Hopkins in Silence of the Lambs. He doesn't know he is in someone else's movies in it for 20 minutes course. But he's the star. So you know, that's, that's how you have to.

Kevin Goetz:

You also did, you also did a part two. Yeah. Uh, and you hired one of my best friends, Roger Bart.

(38:18):

Eli Roth: 

Roger Bart. Well, Roger Bart's the best. But we could have shot the musical version of Hostel 2, The Musical at the same time. He was singing songs nonstop. He was preparing to do Young Frankenstein. He had just done The Producers. Bart and Richard Burgi were the funniest because Roger Bart is such a genius. So of course I had known him from many, many things including, you know, The Producers. And he was doing Young Frankenstein, but he had done Desperate Housewives and Richard Burgi had also done Desperate Housewives, but in an earlier season. So we're shooting in Prague, but at the time only season one of Desperate Housewives had hit TV and Richard had this show, it was The Sentinel that he starred in basically the long short of his, Richard Burgi was more famous than Roger Bart, even though they were both industrial.

(39:00):

So the two of them would walk into a bar and people would be like, oh my God, it's the guy from Desperate Housewives. And they'd run over to Richard Burgi and just blow past Roger Bart. So part of the fun was we would just keep score of how many people asked for autographs and photos of Richard Burgi, but not Roger Bart.

Kevin Goetz:

How many asked yours?

Eli Roth:

Well, well, I had a few fans there after Hostel one. But you know the thing with Hostel, because I was shooting in Prague, we had our spots. Everyone's a critic. That's what I learned. Like we would go to this, this Indian restaurant where it was like our be like, oh, the chicken lababdar, mango lassi, like that was our spot four nights a week. We were there just like stuffing our face with Indian, so we got to know, you know, all everyone in the restaurant.

(39:36):

And then we took the break, the movie came out and I came back pretty quickly for Hostel 2 and the waiter comes over and he sees us there and he goes, back for more. And I was like, yeah. And he goes, uh, I saw your movie. I go, yeah, what'd you think? He goes, hmm, more bloody than scary. Chicken lababdar, mango lassie? <laugh>. It's like, wow. Wow. More bloody than scary, mango lassie. Yeah. Alright.

Kevin Goetz:

So, is it true that you're not really into doing more than two movies in a series?

Eli Rith:

I ran outta stuff to do. 

Kevin Goetz:

I always think you've never done a part three.

Eli Roth:

I've never done a part three, but I never felt a need to do part three.

Kevin Goetz:

Are you gonna do a Thanksgiving 2?

Eli Roth:

Oh, Thanksgiving 2, definitely.

Kevin Goetz:

Tell me about that. Well, let's talk about Thanksgiving 1, we'll talk about that.

(40:25):

Eli Roth: Well, we should talk about you and the testing process and how I learned to love the testing process 'cause on Cabin Fever, it was a nightmare for me because they kept saying, do not recommend, do not see it. And we need more definite. And I go do, have you asked them, would you recommend it to someone who likes horror? And they're like, no. And I was like, so analyze the data but analyze it correctly and use it to figure out what elements people like and put that in the trailer. On Hostel, we could tell the ending was like so shocking and Clint Culpepper's like, look, the movie is testing low and I get it, but I think the people want a more cathartic ending. So he goes, so here's what I'll do. Why don't we reshoot another ending that I want to do and we'll test them side by side. And I was like, okay.

(41:06):

I was like, but I'm not gonna shoot a bullshit version in case I wind up with it. I was like, if you're ever offered the chance to do a reshoot, don't shoot the bullshit version. Make it great, 'cause you're gonna, you very well might wind up with it.

Kevin Goetz: So, oh wait, hold on, let's not just gloss over that. Like you just said it, it's so important.

Eli Roth: And I remember like they were calling back to the studio going like, yeah, no, Eli's going for it. It's gonna be a great ending. Like it has, you have to achieve greatness in your.

Kevin Goetz:: And good for you for even understanding that because there's a lot of pressure.

Eli Roth: Let me blow 'em away. Okay, by the way, I'm happy to be wrong. If it makes the movie better, you have to be happy to be wrong. You put ego aside.

(41:39):

So we tested it and it tested significantly better and Clint was really fair. He goes, I can only justify releasing your version on 800 screens. This other version I can put on 2,800 screens. He goes, I'm telling you that because I have people that I, 

Kevin Goetz: You wanna win.

Eli Roth: And I wanna win. And we did it and people had different responses. It became the classic. I was like, my ending was like me trying to be, look how dark I am. Look how shocking I can be. And I was like, no, I want people to go. It disturbed people in ways I never thought of. People were like, wow, I became complicit in cheering for violence. I was like, oh, that's interesting. People were like, what scared me was that in the middle I was so horrified by violence, but by the end I was, I wanted it.

(42:15):

Which shows that all of us are capable of that. And that's what really scary.

Kevin Goetz: Misbehaving.

Eli Roth: Yeah, misbehaving. Exactly. So then with like with Thanksgiving, here's the thing. You gotta know how to read the data because you could look at the first test score and go, whoa, we're in trouble. People don't like the movie. And you never take that approach. You go, I'm reading the data here because they want to like it. They're with you. You're just taking too long to get to the next kill, and they're getting ahead of the movie. 

Kevin Goetz: Mm-Hmm <affirmative>. 

Eli Roth: And then the second time they're like, they want to like it. They're with you, but you've put too much. I remember kind of taking out the closeups of our lead actress too much, a little bit too much. They're not feeling, I took out a walk and talk. I was like, no, no, no, we should be in the closeup.

(42:56):

Kevin Goetz: And I said to you, you're cutting too deeply at that point.

Eli Roth: You're cutting too deep. And we pulled it back and people were like, we love her now. 

So it, it really is like..

Kevin Goetz: A calibration. 

Eli Roth: It's a calibration also when you're making an audience movie. If you're doing your million dollar auteur film and it's gonna be for festivals and award, like do whatever you want. But if you're making a popcorn movie, especially if it's a new IP, I mean think of the original movies that got wide releases this year. It's like, what? Talk to Me, Saltburn, Us. There's like five movies. 

Kevin Gotz: Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. 

Eli Roth: Barely. 

Kevin Goetz: Mm-Hmm. <affirmative> That got. 

Eli Roth: What got the big 3000 screen release? 

Kevin Goetz: You're right. 

Eli Roth: Nothing. So you better listen to those test audiences. Well, or at least understand what's keeping them from going. 

(43:36):

Wow. I love it. 

Kevin Goetz: Well, I tried to put myself actually in your position, I tried to put myself in the studio's position because truly you and the studio really want the same thing. 

Eli Roth: Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. 

Kevin Goetz: You want it to work for the largest audience. So I try to think what would be the questions that would be relevant for you and actionable for you. Not just getting information. 

Eli Roth: Well, that's great. That's what's great.

Kevin Goetz:  You know, because, and I think it's because I was a filmmaker and an actor myself, that I can operate on more of that artist level as opposed to the business level.

Eli Roth: Yeah. You know, you're not operating as like a statistician level, but you've also done enough of these and watched enough movie and you understand acting and the craft of filmmaking and storytelling to know how to mine it.

(44:16):

I remember like before the screening, you know Nicole Brown from Tristar, who we love, who's been an amazing champion of the movie. Amazing. She said to me, she's like, what's the running time? I'm like, I dunno. It's like an hour and 54 minutes. She goes, you'll probably get 10 minutes out after the screening. I'm like, what? There's no way. And then you were like, oh, you could get 10 minutes out. I'm like, you guys are insane. We watch it. And I was like, the next day I cut like 15 minutes out of the movie because. 

Kevin Goetz: I remember you called me and I was like, or you texted me. You said, your voice is in my head. I've gotten 15 minutes. I was like, you go boy.

I was like..

Eli Roth: But no, but you were right.

Kevin Goetz: But Nicole and I didn't conspire. Nobody conspired.

Eli Roth: But you were both feeling the same thing.

(44:49):

Kevin Goetz: We were both feeling the same thing as was Gary Barber.

Eli Roth: So, but I couldn't, I couldn't see it because I was just like, what do I cut? What do I cut? What? And then it was Jeff and I were like, oh, I get what we did. We made a slasher film, a detective story, and a high school comedy. I should just pick one. Make a slasher film. The detective story, people are getting. Bye, they get it. The high school comedy, little goes a long way. Take it out. Keep it in a slasher movie. They know what's going on. And I found a few clever solutions. Now, we had the added complication of the SAG strike. 

Kevin Goetz: Oh. 

Eli Roth: So we wanted to shoot some, it's great to do a re-shoot, you know, in the studio's. Like, okay, we'll let you go back for a couple additional days.

(45:26):

Which is something I would plan to every movie. Now you shoot it, you know, it's, it's a faith-based system. You just have to have faith that what's in your head is gonna work. Some things do, some things don't. Sometimes you don't get the actor you want. Sometimes you get the actor that you don't expect to pop in a way they do that people, the audience responds to, you think they're gonna love this person, but they respond to that thing. So you go, what if we could go back and do some more? So we went back, we did the corn holders in the ears, we did the oven kill and it changed the movie 'cause I got to cut stuff and replace it with a pure stock and slash that I really wanted. But also we couldn't shoot with Patrick Dempsey. We couldn't shoot with Nell Verlaque. 

Kevin Goetz: Yeah.

Eli Roth (46:00):

We had to shoot with our non-SAG actors. So there is this feeling of like, oh man, if I could go back.

Kevin Goetz: Wait just, you're talking about like over the shoulder stuff and like that to pick up anything. Right? You're not talking about face replacements or anything?

Eli Roth: No, no, no, no, no. There were actors that were non-SAG, the Canadian actors, the actors that you could shoot with 'cause they're not in SAG. So we wrote sequences to shoot with them. I mean we have a guy in a mask who's a Canadian stunt guy. 

Kevin Goetz:: And that's what I'm talking about. 

Eli Roth: Canadian actors were not, we didn't, but it was weird that we were weirdly restricted of what works in a test screening, what can we do to this movie that I can shoot in this time period, in this edit for this amount of money with my non-SAG actors?

(46:43):

Where can I beef up the story?

Kevin Goetz: And let me tell you that as a researcher, I'm thinking about that for you. 

Eli Roth: Yeah. 

Kevin Goetz: I'm not trying to say things that I know you couldn't do.

Eli Roth: Well that was it.

Kevin Goetz: May I ask you though, one of the other things that you didn't bring up, and I know you brought it up, and thank you for that shout-out on another podcast that you recently did. There were moments that we all had to acknowledge went too far in their graphic nature to the point where some of the audience was feeling uncomfortable and not enjoying themselves. And it was a fine line. But to acknowledge you, you picked up on how to bring it right to the brink without us taking the fun away.

Eli Roth: Yeah. 

Kevin Goetz: That was to me, one of the biggest a-has of my learning on that movie.

Eli Roth (47:29):

Well, me too. You know, 'cause you think, oh I did Hostel and my fans want that kind of stuff. I want to do that. I love that. And you put it in the scene. But I realized that it was too much of a bait and switch. The first two kills of the movie, the one in the diner and the one in the apartment with the feeding the cat. They're so fun. They're gleefully fun and they happen to minor characters.

Kevin Goetz:  And then he feeds feeds. Oh my God. 

Eli Roth: The killer feeds the cat. I always worry when I watch a horror movie, if a guy, someone has a pet and they get killed, I don't, I can't enjoy the movie until I know the pet is okay and someone's gonna feed the pet. That's all I think about. And I'm weird like that. So I wanted to finally address that.

Kevin Goetz (48:06):

It's so human!

Eli Roth: So, and that by the way, but that point, the audience is with you. We've got 'em. The audience is like, oh, isn't that called the save the cat moment? It's literally that. It's literally feeding a pet. It's the most obvious save the cat. It's like the most obvious basic screenwriting.

Kevin Goetz: It's so great Eli.

Eli Roth: It's so cliche, but we've never seen it in the context of a brutal kill in a slasher film where the killer's like, I got no problem with the cat. I gotta feed the cat. Someone will find the body, but let me just make sure the cat's okay. At least for a while. So that's what I wanted to, that's what I wanted to do. So, but, but by the end we had a kill. And you think like, oh this will make it better. I'm gonna, you know, I'm shooting it going, this will be brutal.

(48:47):

The makeup is amazing. It's so, but you could feel the air get sucked out of the room because people are having fun, having fun. And then they felt like they got punched in the gut. Like they felt sucker punched. The movie did not recover from that. It went suddenly to a place of sadism that nobody was there for and nobody wanted. And I hadn't properly addressed. Like Hostel is like, we're gonna go to the worst thing you've ever seen. It's about that, set up from the very beginning. This is what's gonna like, it's awful and we're dreading it and it's gonna be worse than what you thought. And then it's cathartic at the end. This was like, it's fun. The kills are fun. We're in a slasher film. We're trying to guess who it is. You know, you're like, the trampoline is crazy. Like all the, everything is like an element of kind of nuts about it.

(49:32):

Like from the trampoline.

Kevin Goetz: Plus your antagonist, is not motivated as a psychopath. He becomes psychopathic. 

Eli Roth: Right. 

Kevin Goetz: Because of events that happen. 

Eli Roth: Yeah. But not, but he's not, it's not just a random where he is a psychopath. Yeah, where they're just sadist. Yeah. 

Kevin Goetz: And that's an important distinction. Yeah.

Well so, but basically I learned that, I remember you said, you're like, you went too far in the violence. And I remember thinking like we had 15 shots of a woman roasting in an oven. People were like, it's not fun anymore. It's just awful. And people like…

Kevin Goetz: And it wasn't even, 'cause it was too gross by the way.

It was just not fun anymore. It, the idea, it wasn't fun. 

Eli Roth: And, and the idea was, I always wanted, the whole idea was he roasts, and roasts, roasts her and the, it's the punchline should be like the turkey thermometer pops.

(50:18):

He stabs her with a thermometer and at the end, boom, turkey's done. And I want the audience to laugh and applaud when that happened. And when that happened and they were silent, I was like, huh. And then the scores went down and then we pull back on it and the thing popped and the audience lost their minds. And I was like, okay, that's, that's what we want here. It's a fun movie That's, but I, I learned a lot. I mean that, you know, you never know. And Jeff and I talk about this, we're like dead certain that you're right about everything.

Kevin Goetz: Jeff’s your writing partner on this.

Eli Roth: Yeah, Jeff. Yeah. And my producing partner, we've been dreaming this movie since we were 12 years old. We're like, you always learn something at a test screening. You always learn something at a test screening whether you want to or not.

(50:55):

And you put it out there and we said to each other we're like, thank God we got our heads handed to us. Like what I do to those characters, the test audiences did to me. And I'm so happy they did because otherwise I would've gone out on 3000 screens and humiliated myself. It would've been a disaster. It would've been like the movie that was almost good.

Kevin Goetz: Yeah. But to your credit, to your credit, you began to trust me. 

Eli Roth: Yeah. 

Kevin Goetz: And the process in a way that you probably hadn't before.

Eli Roth: No I hadn't.

Kevin Goetz: Because now you understand there's a dance that can be done between the audience and the filmmaker. 

Eli Roth: Yeah. 

Kevin Goetz: And that is a really special process.

Eli Roth: Well also with horror, the intent is to horrify. Horror movies don't test well because you're not supposed to feel good after it. Like my favorite horror movies, you're like shocked and disturbed.

(51:40):

If you think of The Vanishing, the Dutch film, it's like that's the reason it's a classic 'cause it's so disturbing. But that's what makes it so powerful. So you don't wanna water that down. At the same time, if you're doing a mainstream studio slasher film that's gonna have a wide release, you want the audience to enjoy it. And if you're gonna do something that's riskier, like a Talk to Me, you make that for three and a half, $4 million. If you're gonna make a riskier movie, it's gotta be like in that under $5 million.

Kevin Goetz: Good for you.

Eli Roth: And like, if I'm making Green Inferno, I don't want to test that and market and put it out. Green Inferno doesn't work unless it's like it's an endurance test. Like you can't believe this movie. It's insane. And had I tested it, I would've gone back and put in a bigger ending 'cause I think the movie peaks in the middle. But I also knew, I was like, we're doing this movie for like under $5 million and we're making a crazy cannibal film. I'm just doing the movie so it exists. So people go back and talk about the old cannibal movies and people are like, that's where people are just like, yeah.

Kevin Goetz: Did it make money?

Eli Roth: It did. It did. I mean we made it for five. I think it made, you know, they did a small release with it. It made like seven and a half or eight in the theaters. Yeah. But on the ancillary stuff, the ancillary did well it wasn't like a phenomenal, no one lost money. That's one where it's like nobody got hurt.

Kevin Goetz: I don't think anyone's lost money in any of your movies.

Eli Roth: No. 'cause I do them for cheap. It's riskier to make those movies.

(52:56):

A lot of times you make no money, you know, and the stuff you produce and sometimes you're, ugh, how did this make all this money? And I didn't see any of it, you know? Yeah. Chasing that money is very hard. You know, that becomes a whole art in and of itself. So you have to make a bunch of 'em. But on the movies I've directed my first four or five movies, the all combined, the total budget was like 20 or 25 million. Like nothing. But I learned how to do it. I learned how to shoot 30, super 35 on a million dollar budget and be really careful. And I knew how to shot list. I knew because I had been been on set, I know how long it takes to set something up. I know how to rehearse, I know how to stage, I know how to frame it.

(53:30):

I knew how to like be really, really prepared.

Kevin Goez: You know, as we come to a close here, which I'm regret, I have to say what I sense about you Eli, and I'm just sort of getting to know you on a more of a friendship level. And so you open up to me and it, it's wonderful to see you have this insane ability to galvanize and to show your excitement and enthusiasm. It speaks to drive and ambition. And yet you've arrived at a certain place in your life that you're not apologetic.

Eli Roth: Yeah.

Kevin Goetz: And it feels really infectious.

Eli Roth: Oh, thank you.

Kevin Goetz: And so I applaud you for that and also your authenticity and for that, again, I couldn't be more pleased and grateful for you being here and sharing kind of your story for this, the short amount of time. But I'd love you to come back at some point.

Eli Roth (54:19):

Oh absolutely. And, thank you Kevin, because I certainly have learned from you not just the value of the testing process 'cause that's a very generic statement, but the value of you and your ability to understand what's keeping the audience from loving a movie and what do you have in there that you can mine or refine or hone or beef up or take out. It's not just like, well the audience would love it if there was a big car chase at the end. 

Kevin Goetz: Oh please. Exactly. 

Eli Roth: It's, it's not that. It's like your audience is with you, they wanna love it, but you have three detective scenes between kills and they're already ahead of the movie. So they're already thinking about, so you have to win them back every time. If you can pull that stuff out, trust that the audience will get it. I think you'll find the scores go up and you were like the first screening, they were more connected to your main character.

(55:08):

I was like, oh yeah, we took out some of those walk and talks. 

Kevin Goetz: I knew it. 

Eli Roth: And then I put 'em back in and people, I was like, I know exactly what we did. We were like, oh, you know..

Kevin Goetz: They don't, they don't care about the lead anymore. 

Eli Roth: They don't care about the lead. And so it was like, we have to go back with these beautiful closeups of her. We gotta linger in those closeups. We gotta watch this moment where she's sweet with her boyfriend and put it back in, and everyone was completely with her. So it's, it's just your ability to understand, to read the data. It's you, it's your sensibility, it's your, your passion for movies, but you're like, you want the filmmaker and the studio to win. You want the movie to work better and not just in a this better make money kind of way. Just in like, this is what the audience is completely missing from your movie. And it's all there if you just focus on that. So I would say to any filmmakers, if you test first, if you're lucky enough to get Kevin, or anyone from these, you're in amazing hands. But really try and understand the data and know that yes, it is just one screening, one audience, but there are, if 300 people are all telling you the same thing, you might wanna listen and try and address it. Maybe not even in the way they think, but just address what is keeping them from loving it.

Kevin Goetz: Eli Roth, thank you. And I look forward to working on Thanksgiving 2.

Eli Roth: As do I. Thank you Kevin.

Kevin Goetz: To our listeners, I hope you enjoyed our interview. I encourage you to check out Eli's filmography, including Thanksgiving on Prime Video or Apple TV if you haven't seen it already. For more filmmaking and audience testing stories, I invite you to check out my book Audienceology at Amazon or through my website at KevinGoetz360.com. You can also follow me on my social media @KevinGoetz360. Until then, I'm Kevin Goetz, and to you, our listeners, I appreciate you being part of the movie-making process. Your opinions matter.

Host: Kevin Goetz
Guest: Eli Roth
Producer: Kari Campano
Writers: Kevin Goetz, Darlene Hayman, and Kari Campano