Podcast: Don't Kill the Messenger with Movie Research Expert Kevin Goetz 
Guest:  Director and Producer, McG
Interview Transcript:

Announcer (00:02):

There's a little-known part of Hollywood that most people are not aware of known as the audience test preview. The recently released book, Audienceology, reveals this for the first time. Our podcast series, Don't Kill the Messenger, brings this book to life, taking a peek behind the curtain. And now, join author and entertainment research expert, Kevin Goetz.

Kevin Goetz (00:25):

Good morning, Angels.

Angels (00:27):

Good morning, Charlie.

Kevin Goetz (00:40):

Your mission today is to learn about my guest who is no stranger to thrills and high-octane adventures. Together, we are going to meet and uncover the secrets of the talented director and producer, and should I add funny and very ginger Joseph McGinty Nichol, better known as McG. His film directorial credits include Charlie's Angels, We are Marshall, The Babysitter and Family Switch, and his television credits include Lethal Weapon and Turner and Hooch. Are you ready to rock and roll, Angels? McG I'm so glad you're here, man.

McG (01:18):

I'm so glad to be here. We gingers gotta stick together.

Kevin Goetz (01:21):

Wait, what is it? We do everything alike. We talk alike. So McG, I met you first at that first screening of Charlie's Angels. I dunno how many years ago, you were one of the nicest guys. You were like a deer caught in the headlights because it was your first Hollywood experience at a screening. Tell me about that.

McG (01:39):

That was a wild one. I mean, yeah, we sort of went from zero to a hundred on that one real quick. Uh, for the first film to be a film of that magnitude was exciting. 

Kevin Goetz (01:49):

What was the budget on that? 

McG (01:50):

You know, a hundred, 115 million bucks.

Kevin Goetz (01:52):

And your first movie, first full-length, right? 

McG (01:54):

Yeah. And nobody wanted me to do that. That was at the time when the studio was being run by Amy Pascal. Lucy Fisher, and of course the great John Calley and I was only protected by Drew.

Kevin Goetz (02:06):

And Nancy. 

McG (02:07):

And Nancy. And Drew was a very, very powerful movie star at the time. And I remember I had previously pitched Amy Pascal on a film called Blue Streak, if you remember this film with, of course, Martin Lawrence and I believe Luke Wilson. And it went terribly. I went and I pitched Amy and I was completely ill-prepared and Amy didn't like it. And she calls my agent at the time was Phil Raskin and goes, that was a terrible pitch. And I had one of those moments where I said never. It was like, Scarlet…

Kevin Goetz (02:34):

Scarlet, Scarlet O'Hara.

McG (02:36):

Grasping the dirt.

Kevin Goetz (02:37):

I will never, I will never be hungry again.

McG (02:39):

I'll never be hungry again. And then I got the opportunity. I actually met Drew Barrymore through Rock and Roll, not through film. She was running around with the guy at the time. Her boyfriend was a guy, Eric Erlandson, who was the guitar player in Courtney Love’s band, Hole. And I was very much involved in the rock and roll scene and Drew said…

Kevin Goetz (02:55):

Doing music videos.

McG (02:56):

Correct. And making records.

Kevin Goetz (02:57):

Right. You had G Recordings your own label. Yeah.

McG (03:01):

I'll tell you that story shortly. All right. But Drew had the rights to Charlie's Angels and she was like, I wanna make a female superhero movie and I want it to be like your videos. They're colorful and exciting and explosive. And every legitimate director had passed in town. I said, okay.

Kevin Goetz (03:16):

No one wanted to touch that property probably. 'cause there was a cheese factor to it, right?

McG (03:20):

Indeed. Then Amy Pascal rolls her eyes like this Yo-yo, I have already met with him once. He's terribly unimpressive. And I was so ready and I went in there with Drew.

Kevin Goetz (03:30):

You were so ready this time.

McG (03:32):

Oh yeah. I acted out the whole movie in real time. I did all three parts. I stood up on the table and did it. Amy and Lucy were looking at me like I was outta my mind. Arms crossed, terrible nonverbals shaking their head like, this guy's dead to us. Drew's there cheering me on. And then begrudgingly at the end, it was a real moment of Drew's like he's doing it or I'm not. And begrudgingly they hired me. And then the rest is Hollywood history as they say. And it worked out. Wow. And I was nearly fired off that movie six, eight times.

Kevin Goetz (04:01):

You mean they would see dailies? They would see dailies and they said we gotta replace him. 

McG (04:05):

Amy would call me and go, what is this? It's so colorful. Everybody's singing and dancing and why are the girls flying around with the guys from The Matrix and what, what am I watching?

Kevin Goetz (04:12):

Well that certainly wasn't Amy's view the night of the screening because she was pretty ecstatic if I recall.

McG (04:17):

Well by the time we got around to you, we had been through the fire.

Kevin Goetz (04:22):

By the way, it was Flower Films, one of their first big movies.

McG (04:25):

Indeed.

Kevin Goetz (04:25):

So they also had a lot on the line.

McG (04:27):

Everybody had a lot on the line and they brought in Jenno Topping to help produce it with Betty 'cause Betty and Jenno were partnered.

Kevin Goetz (04:34):

Right. Betty and Jenno were partners, correct. In Betty Thomas's Tall Trees. Yeah, Tall Tree. Jesus. I forget who I'm talking to here. I think of him as talent, but he's not only talent, he's also a businessman, which is why I'm really turned onto you. 

McG (04:46):

You're hysterical.

Kevin Goetz (04:46):

No, it's true though. You're so cool. I just wanna say we see each other all the time. But we just reconnected most recently at the Motion Picture and Television Fund event at  at Sherry Lansing's house at Scott Stuber also co-hosted. And you and I both really felt passionate about this cause and we said like, what can we do? We gotta do something. Let's join forces and get some others on board.

McG (05:08):

We have to make some moves there to take care of our own. And I think there are ways to do that. And again, bureaucracy is in the way of that one that you and I gotta blow through that.

Kevin Goetz (05:16):

Absolutely. Absolutely. We'll talk about that on another show because we should do a show just based on that. When you know about the Motion Picture and Television Country House and you go there, you are like, oh my lord, this is in our industry. We are responsible for this. We take care of our own. It's a fabulous, fabulous place. It's a great place. Okay, so going back to Charlie's Angels, that first screening, Amy Pascal comes out, scores are pretty damn good, if I recall. And suddenly everyone's a believer.

McG (05:44):

Yeah.

Kevin Goetz (05:44):

There's nothing like success, McG.

McG (05:47):

I suppose you're right. But we still had to hold our breath until we opened. And then when it opened we then got to pop some champagne because it was the largest first time opening in Hollywood history. And Jeff Blake, if you recall.

Kevin Goetz (05:59):

Oh yes, I know Jeff. 

McG (06:00):

He was the one that put that stat out there and I was humbled and honored. Told that for a while. 

Kevin Goetz (06:04):

How did you get the name Wonderland Sound and Vision?

McG (06:07):

Well, I believe in storytelling. You and I should be able to close our eyes and listen to a film and understand exactly what's going on. That's my Peter and the Wolf influence. Were like, oh, there's the oboe. That's the funny duck waddling across. And it creates imagery. And conversely, I think that you should be able to plug your ears and just watch the picture and know exactly what's going on. So therefore the sound and vision and it's one of my favorite David Bowie songs and I'm trying to go back to my Thin White Duke phase. Mm-Hmm.

Kevin Goetz (06:32):

<affirmative>

McG (06:33):

That I was in my Orson Wells phase for a long time. And I said enough of that, you know, I gotta go back to my Bowie phase. But I'm trying, I'm trying my off.

Kevin Goetz (06:39):

Why music? What resonated with you? So was it since your days when you grew up in Michigan?

McG (06:44):

Well, I mean, I'm born in Kalamazoo, Michigan, but I grew up largely in Newport Beach, California. And at the time I was going to school, I was pre-Med because I come from a very academic family where Hollywood's a million miles away. And I finally realized my…

Kevin Goetz (06:58):

And you were a psychology major, right?

McG (06:59):

Correct. Well that was to try to cure my own neurosis and my own ills. 

Kevin Goetz (07:02):

You went to UC Irvine.

McG (07:03):

Correct. Which was a function of my being so agoraphobic, you know, at the time. And we'll talk about that. Which got me fired off Superman. 

Kevin Goetz (07:11):

What? Yeah. Okay. Too many things man.

McG (07:13):

Okay, we'll, we'll revisit.

Kevin Goetz (07:14):

We're back in Newport Beach.

McG (07:14):

We're in Newport Beach.

Kevin Goetz (07:16):

Not known for their music scene by the way.

McG (07:18):

No known for, known for the general malaise of divorce cultures and planned…

Kevin Goetz (07:22):

And high-end society.

McG (07:23):

Well not so much in California.

Kevin Goetz (07:25):

Pretty high end you got there.

McG (07:26):

But not, not in the seventies, not in the eighties, you know what I mean? And very white. It was still a groovy Yeah. Very kind of Reaganesque at the time. And it was hard as an oddball, you know what I mean? Older brother, older sister. My whole life is music and film from the day I'm born. People talk about when did you turn on to film or when did you turn on music? I don't even know how to answer.

Kevin Goetz (07:43):

Because it was in your blood.

McG (07:43):

It's in my blood. And I would always act out songs and just get so taken away by this Busby Berkeley fantasy life that I had my whole life. And I finally reconciled around my junior year in school that I, I'm not going to med school. I'm tired of being broke. I love music. I love film. And I'm buddies with Gwen Stefani and Anaheim, three guys in Long Beach that call themselves sublime. The one black dude in Irvine, Zach Rocha, who was the singer of Rage Against the Machine. Um, and my best friend growing up is this guy Mark McGrath, who's the sugar ray guy who I'm like, dude, you're not the greatest singer in the world, but you're terribly handsome. Let's make a video. And I wanted to be Rick Rubin. 'cause Rick Rubin started Def Jam out of his NYU dorm room. And here's a guy going to NYU that was plugged into the hip hop culture and he wanted to bring it to the world.

Kevin Goetz (08:26):

How'd you make the video?

McG (08:27):

So I helped those guys write their hits fly, every morning, and someday.

Kevin Goetz (08:30):

You helped compose those. Yeah.

McG (08:33):

Yeah. And then because I was a still photographer, we needed a video and it was the time of MTV. So my buddy was a camera assistant and we had to bite, scratch and kick and scream to borrow Panavision gear in those days. Totally

Kevin Goetz (08:46):

Scrappy.

McG (08:47):

Go to the Kodak docs and short ends for

Kevin Goetz (08:49):

Exactly. There were no digital cameras, no digital anything. Right. It was all film. And film was expensive terribly. So if you were a scrappy young filmmaker, you would beg for short ends the leftover film from a reel that was never used. Correct.

McG (09:04):

Right. Exactly. Right. And therefore you'd have these little abbreviated takes and then you'd have to reload, all right, let's reload. And it was very difficult but awesome. It was a dream come true. So I make this video, I put it on green cassette tapes and I hide it in pizza boxes. And I have the pizzas delivered to the heads of the record labels in the United States.

Kevin Goetz (09:22):

Oh, hold on, we're talking genius here guys.

McG (09:24):

<laugh>. No, they would never take me. But they took the pizza and it got into the hands of Ahmet Ertegun in New York, who's obviously the legend. He got 30 seconds into watching it and said, sign those guys. Wow. And we got a big giant record deal.

Kevin Goetz (09:39):

I wonder if he ever ate the pizza <laugh>.

McG (09:42):

And that was the one of the first humiliations of my life because right when I was around 15 or 16 years old, I started having really meaningful anxiety attacks. A real problem with that.

Kevin Goetz (09:51):

Mid-teens?

McG (09:52):

Yeah. I mean it happens a lot as you and I was very late with puberty. And it's a very overwhelming thing when your heart starts racing and you can't breathe and you don't know why. And a lot of people have that and just kind of cycle in and out of it and never become agoraphobic. But a lot of people start to associate, Hey, I had that problem on the plane. I'm not gonna get on the plane anymore. I had it on the freeway, I'm not gonna get on the freeway anymore. I had it at the mall. I'm gonna stop going to the mall and your world can get real small. And my world started getting real small. And here we are where New York, Atlantic records calls and says, fly out here first class, we're gonna do the works and the thing. And I remember the five of us sleeping at my apartment in Newport Beach and my knowing I had this problem and the first class tickets were on the counter and I couldn't sleep. And at three o'clock in the morning I climbed out of the window of my own apartment, left the keys to my Volkswagen Rabbit on the counter and said, you guys go, I'm kind of sick. And the guys in Sugar Ray knew and they didn't really rub it in, but they got to go and have this incredible victory lap in New York and you know, get this big giant record deal. And I couldn't participate in that. And I kept that secret all the way through Charlie's.

Kevin Goetz (10:55):

How many years is that? 15. Geez Louise.

McG (10:58):

So it kind of came on at 15. 

Kevin Goetz (10:59):

Did your parents know?

McG (11:00):

They knew. But it's one of those things that, you know, you can explain it but people don't really get it. 'cause I kind of have, you know, this, this boisterous personality and I remember when I was doing Superman, I overtly tried to speak responsibly to Alan Horn and Barry Meyer and say, I'm really worried about going down to Australia. I don't think I can fly down there. I got this problem with flying. And they were kinda, oh, you’re McG, come on, you'll be fine. And I'm like, I'm trying to tell you I can't do it. And you cut to.

Kevin Goetz (11:27):

Well you could have taken a boat I guess.

McG (11:29):

No, I was equally afraid of that. It's not the flying.

Kevin Goetz (11:32):

Got it, got it.

McG (11:34):

It's the lack of control. Yes. And the, and the anywhere that would be a bad place to have a full blown anxiety episode is what you would avoid. 'cause it's that avoidance behavior that just again makes your world really small. And you know, the Warner Jets idling on the runway. I didn't have the nerve to tell him. Like I just was hoping somehow I'd find the nerve.

Kevin Goetz (11:51):

You literally took it up to that that point.

McG (11:53):

Yeah. And I couldn't get on the plane. Oh that night, got fired. Tough, tough call. Ari Emanuel comes over to my house to share the news but stand by my side to Ari's credit, it was a real standup moment that I'll always owe him for. Get a letter the next day from the head of legal at Warner's. These people are all my dear friends saying, we reserve the right to sue you for the damages you've caused to the film by not telling us about your problem. And that ultimately got me to limp in to see these two women at UCLA, one a psychiatrist, one a behavioral therapist that helped me start to put one foot in front of the other and start to try to overcome this disorder. So I rented a G4 from a rich guy in Santa Barbara and I would just start sleeping on the plane just to get used to the fuselage of the plane. And then we'd start taxiing and I was doing the work with the two professionals at UCLA and then one day I gave the pilot the look and he put the throttle down and we took off.

Kevin Goetz (12:46):

I'm gonna cry, I'm gonna only say this because I have OCD and really clinical OCD mm-hmm <affirmative>. I've been on meds for years because of that. And I've had to have behavioral therapy years ago and so forth. This is since I'm a little boy. It's just a brain chemistry disorder. 

McG (13:02):

Oh there's no doubt about it.

Kevin Goetz (13:03):

And the fact is that you could be so open about it and share that and makes me wanna share that too, I think makes us very human. But also it talks about how real these things are. They Oh yeah. They really are like totally present and your desire and your drive couldn't even overcome that mental challenge.

McG (13:24):

Yeah. I couldn't bear the thought of being the guy that couldn't do it. And you know, I put myself in very unsavory positions as you can imagine. And it was terribly embarrassing. And it's on the cover of the New York Times, you know, director of Superman afraid to fly. And it was terribly humiliating, but it sort of was the change agent I needed to do the work I needed to do to get a leg up on it. 

Kevin Goetz (13:47):

Where are you now with it?

McG (13:47):

I'm very good now with it. I've been very good for a long time. But people go, oh, you're over that. I would never say I'm over it. And I would imagine you feel the same way with your OCD challenges where you go, I'm managing it very well right now and I keep working hard. No different than, you know, if you have an obesity challenge and you try to manage your weight, diabetes. Diabetes, like, it's like I'm doing well, but I don't use the terms of art, hey, I licked it. I'm over it. Yeah. I just say I'm doing, and I mean I've been around the world a hundred times, but that shaped me to such a degree that I'm very respectful of that path I've walked and it's my truth. So, and it also, I did hide it for a long time, but then I,

Kevin Goetz (14:22):

But the more you talk about it, in my opinion, the more it takes the power out of it and the juice out of it and suddenly it becomes, oh it's just a thing.

McG (14:31):

But I think, look at you. Great, you have this condition that you don't love. It's caused you some difficulties, but it's also probably what gives you your secret sauce.

Kevin Goetz (14:39):

I can't even believe you said that. When I began to recognize it and got on medication, I'm talking 25 years ago. It made me more focused. It made me more creative because I wasn't distracted with all these other thoughts and things that came into my head. I became more single focused and I became much more effective as a result of it.

McG (14:59):

Yeah. I mean there you have it. I don't think anybody would wish what Stephen Hawking went through, but he'll be the first to say that focused his mind. So though it's a painful reality. 

Kevin Goetz (15:10):

That's interesting. I never heard that.

McG (15:11):

Yeah. He would talk about that very, very openly. That if he could do a somersault in the grass, he wouldn't have developed his mind to such a degree. And it's still a sad, heavy burden to bear, but there can be secondary gains. Sure. And I think that, you know, because as you stated, I believe completely, it's a brain chemistry thing. So A, don't beat yourself up over it and B, maybe that's part of why you got dragon's blood in your veins and you kick so much ass, too. Or why I hear music a certain way or see a film a certain way and you take the crunchy with the smooth and you do your best to sort of reconcile that. And you know, that's given me a little peace even though it's terribly difficult. And I have children of my own now.

Kevin Goetz (15:48):

How many do you have?

McG (15:49):

Three. So it's…

Kevin Goetz (15:50):

And their, I'm sorry, their ages?

McG (15:51):

Seven, five and two. I was very late to that. I'm surprised my dusty old ball still work <laugh>. But anyway, remember in Forrest Gump when he realizes he has the kid and he asked Jenny like, is he, and it's the first time Forrest cops to knowing, hey I am Forrest Gump, I get it. And he never did through the body of the film. I'm very sensitive 'cause I wouldn't want any of my children to go through what I've gone through. 'cause it was extremely painful and humiliating and embarrassing and very rough.

Kevin Goetz (16:16):

I bet your parents, uh, felt like, gosh, I wish you told us more and we could have been there for you more.

McG (16:20):

Yeah. But they also come from that generation of like stiff upper lip. Oh you know, don't be a wimp and they love me. It wasn't, it sounds like I'm painting a sadistic picture. Not at all. No, no, no. But it was just a lack of understanding. It was just sort of like.

Kevin Goetz (16:33):

Yeah, my parents didn't know what to do when I was touching things repeatedly. Right. They didn't know what to do with that. Um, they just thought it was, oh he'll, he'll get out. He'll, you know, he'll grow out of that. Yeah.

McG (16:41):

And you know, I was functional enough even though like I was meant to go to USC and I couldn't handle even driving 45 minutes up the freeway. I ended up going to UCI and you know, it really, really closed down my life. And yeah, it's just something, it's part of me and…

Kevin Goetz (16:55):

Well good on you man. Good on on you.

McG (16:57):

I'm, I'm trying.

Kevin Goetz (16:57):

So let's go back to your first big success. Charlie's Angels. You're a guy who was scrappy and did all these things and music and still photography and music videos and, and, and now you get a major motion picture. It's in the over a hundred million dollars budget. There's a lot at stake. It's a success. Thank God. How does your life change from that point?

McG (17:19):

A lot of doors opened, a lot of opportunity. That was how I got on to Superman. I was on Superman twice. The first time was right after Charlie's 'cause I was buddies with Robinhoff, you know, my dear friend Jeff Rubinoff and went out and talked about it. But then I didn't do it 'cause we got the second Charlie's together. So I went and did the sequel to Charlie’s, Full Throttle. Correct. And then after that got back into Superman. So a lot of opportunities and also seems strange 'cause everybody does it now. But at the time, feature filmmakers weren't really that involved in television. And my agent is Ari Emmanuel along with Phil Raskin and Ari Greenberg and Patrick Whitesell. And Ari goes, you gotta do a TV show. And I go, alright, I'm, you know, a, a scrawny little dude from Newport Beach, California. And I went to school with those strapping water polo Adonisses and that was The OC. So we did that and Josh Schwartz flushed it out and came up with everything on that one. And you know, he is one of the great writers of our time.

Kevin Goetz (18:14):

Are you a creator on that?

McG (18:15):

I don't know if I got creator, but I'm EP.

Kevin Goetz (18:17):

I mean that's what I mean. You were on every episode. Got it.

McG (18:20):

Yeah. It's my…

Kevin Goetz (18:21):

But you did direct some, didn't you?

McG (18:22):

No, I didn't direct any of it. Oh really? And that was a bad scene, part of the sales package 'cause Josh bless his heart was so young. He was the youngest showrunner in the history of television. And they're like, who's this kid we need at the time, McG to play the role of the, I was now the new Drew Barrymore. I was the 800-pound gorilla to help Josh do his thing. So we went in there, it was Gail Berman who was running…

Kevin Goetz (18:43):

Oh. Another one of my heroes.

McG (18:45):

Fox at the time. And when we said I couldn't do it 'cause I was doing a movie, she hit the roof and said, I'm gonna kill the show unless you can get a, a director of your caliber to do the pilot. And we were lucky enough to uh, get Doug Lyman to do it. So Doug Lyman did the pilot.

Kevin Goetz (18:57):

Man, is he talented?

McG (18:58):

Oh he's amazing. And that was that another one for the Hollywood folklore pile.

Kevin Goetz (19:02):

Absolutely. Yeah man. Oh man.

McG (19:04):

So opportunity is the answer to the question.

Kevin Goetz (19:06):

Opportunity. Exactly.

McG (19:07):

And I started my production company, which was Wonderland because I liked just the idea of, again, my childhood was boring and I always had a very active dream life. So Wonderland and like I said, sound and vision 'cause of the Bowie song and equal measure records and movies. So that was that. And I was lucky enough to partner with Stephanie Savage who worked for Nancy and Drew and I saw that here's this, you know, incredible PhD candidate outta the University of Iowa writing program. And you know…

Kevin Goetz (19:35):

How'd you get her away from Flower?

McG (19:36):

Well they were gracious. Oh they were cool. They saw that we were getting, they prescribed her to me. Oh. Because they knew I was a fuck up. And Drew and Nancy had the wisdom and particularly Nancy as incredible business acumen. She's like, I'm prescribing 'cause Stephanie was so buttoned up and awesome. She's like, you control crazy McG and Stephanie and I got on like a house on fire. And then we started the company and then she became very close with Josh through The OC and then they started their own company. Rightfully so. 'cause she's a writer, she's got a writer's spirit and now they're juggernauts in their own right.

Kevin Goetz (20:10):

You know what's so cool is that, so Drew went on a limb for you and then she also went on a limb for seeing talent. Like beyond, like Nancy was someone she had met like I think at a party or something and was very taken with her and called her and Nancy was not in the business. And she said, Nancy, I really enjoyed meeting you. I'd like to start a production company and I think you'd be right to run it. Like, who, who thinks like that?

McG (20:39):

But that, that's…

Kevin Goetz (20:40):

Incredible

McG (20:41):

To both their credit, but certainly to Drew for identifying the magic. And then that Nancy Juvonen, I've met like you, I've met a lot of people. That is one magical human being right there. Yeah. If she sets her sights on something, her ability to put what is necessary together to get that done is unparalleled. She's incredible.

Kevin Goetz (21:00):

Wow. Well, when we come back, I want to talk about <laugh>, I wanna talk about a lot of things, but there's so many recent projects you've been involved with that have evolved beyond just movies into the streaming world. We'll be back in a moment.

Announcer (21:17):

Get a glimpse into a secret part of Hollywood that few are aware of and that filmmakers rarely talk about in the new book Audienceology by Kevin Goetz. Each chapter is filled with never-before-revealed inside stories and interviews from famous studio chiefs, directors, producers, and movie stars, bringing the art and science of audienceology into focus. Audienceology, How Moviegoers Shape the Films We Love, from Tiller Press at Simon and Schuster. Available now.

Kevin Goetz (21:49):

We're back here with McG. I'm thinking about the film directors like Spike Jonze, David Fincher, F. Gary Gray, Gus Van Sant, Antoine Fuqua, Michael Bay, all starting in music videos. What is it about music videos that seem to, I don't know, bring out the best in <laugh> filmmakers or at least produce a lot of great filmmakers? Is it the, just the visual style?

McG (22:14):

It's so insightful that you bring that up because what a class that was in the nineties and the way it would work was a record label would send out a song, the new Closer by Nine Inch Nails. And Fincher would write on it, Spike would write on it, I would write on it. F. Gary Gray would write on it. Hype Williams, Ratner, all these people that were part of this group, Francis Lawrence. And you can imagine how different the takes would be and how the final expression of what that is for the artist was it was all over the place. What you get from Michael Bay versus what you get from Spike Jonze, Michel Gondry. I mean those are really different expressions. And what a fascinating time. And, and the point is, you would get the song on a Tuesday to have to write the idea Tuesday night to be awarded the gig on Wednesday to shoot that weekend and to edit, to have it on MTV 17 days later.

McG (23:07):

Which is, if you think about making a record, if you think about making a movie, you think about writing a script, the speed of that was so extraordinary that it forced you to develop your style. And you therefore, oh yeah, I've shot on the mountaintop shot at night, shot at day, shot in the desert, shot in the rain, shot in the submarine, shot flying out of a, not me, but you know, jumping out of a helicopter, stuff like that. You really push a lot of film through the camera and develop a voice. It was a wonderful way to develop a voice. And you look at how different all those filmmakers are and if to this day if you gave Spike a script, Mark a script, Michelle Gore's script and me a script, same script. Think how different that film is. Yes. By the time it gets to Kevin gets, you know what I mean? And, and you have to put it up on the screen and see what the audience thinks of it.

Kevin Goetz (23:51):

So speaking of which we have been through warfare a number of times. 

McG (23:56):

We have indeed. I owe you huge. You are my secret sauce.

Kevin Goetz (23:59):

Oh wow. Why

McG (24:00):

You, you, you should have a, you should have a piece of the action. You gotta cut better deals. You should call Ari when we're done with this. You hold the keys.

Kevin Goetz (24:06):

<laugh>. Why am secret sauce?

McG (24:08):

Because you hold the keys to the well if you know how to listen, you gotta know how to swallow a little ego when you're in my boots and you go to that, here we go. We're putting it up on the screen. I always thought that was funny. Crickets and tumbleweeds. I always thought that was horrible. Audience loves it. You get a lot right And you know when you got a great one, you know when you got one that's a little troubled, but the degree to which the system you've put together can illuminate do this, don't do that. Get to here more quickly. Don't get to there at all. Their dynamic isn't working for the following reasons. This is preventing the audience from falling in love with her. And if you know how to incorporate that invaluable feedback, you can improve your film to such a degree that it's to everyone's benefit. Most of which the audience.

Kevin Goetz (24:53):

Sorry to say this, but the greatest filmmakers have said that to me. Not only about me, but about the process. Yeah. The best filmmakers and the ones that are not as embracive of the process, I think don't have as much respect for the audience. And that is a problem.

McG (25:09):

I would agree. And again, it might be the rock and roll days where I liked performing the music. I liked the enthusiasm, applause of the audience. And I always felt the same way in filmmaking. It's more fun when people enjoy it. You don't wanna sell your soul and do something that's foreign to who you are as a voice and as an artist. But I think God just might give with two hands in that particular instance where you're like, this is indeed for the audience, but I'm gonna do it my way. And I think with Charlie's Angels, that was me saying, I like Busby Berkeley, I like Quentin Tarantino, I like the old Hong Kong cinema and I put it in this blender and I like three strip technicolor and I did it. So that was very authentic and dangerous for me at the time. But at the same time I really felt that was gonna resonate with the audience. I didn't do it just for me.

Kevin Goetz (25:55):

How did you take a property like Charlie's Angels that was a known TV property, kind of beloved, kind of iconic, especially with Farrah Faucet and Jacqueline Smith and Kate Jackson, maybe Cheryl Ladd a little later. How did you reinvigorate it? How did you bring new life into that property?

McG (26:15):

I knew from talking to Drew that she was magical as a performer. And then once we got Cameron excited okay, then the stakes went to a whole new place. 

Kevin Goetz (26:24):

Yeah. But it had to start with the script, didn't it?

McG (26:25):

No. No. And I say that with the greatest respect to John August, who's my dear friend who I love who did great work. But it was a take, it was a tone that was one of the first meta offerings of self-awareness.

Kevin Goetz (26:38):

It didn't take itself that seriously. Correct, correct. But yeah, you found something in there that people did not find cheesy. And in fairness, there have been other movies since then that have not worked that are remakes of TV series.

McG (26:51):

Fair play. But I think the North star heavyweight champ of the world that did it better than anyone is of course Barbie, which last year similarly took a difficult idea.

Kevin Goetz (27:02):

Changed the DNA.

McG (27:03):

Yeah. And ultimately it took Greta, they got it right. They had to bring in Ryan with the Ken thing. But you got that so everybody felt safe in saying, Hey, I love this. And I was hell bent at the time of I don't wanna just do Charlie's for what was clearly the core audience of young girls that wanna play Charlie's Angels. But I wanted four quad, enter Kevin, and I wanted to make sure that it was safe for boys that were more inclined to like Spider-Man to also like Charlie’s Angels.

Kevin Goetz (27:27):

Make it action enough and

McG (27:28):

Make it actiony and fun, but sexy and aspirational and unapologetic. We worked in sort of a anti-gun sentiment. You know, you talk about Farrah and Jackie and Kate, there were gun heavy in that show and we decidedly didn't have guns.

Kevin Goetz (27:41):

More hand to hand.

McG (27:41):

Yeah. And that was Drew's big thing. But we did it without wagging our finger at the audience. And I think these are the things I got from you about how to honor the audience and get what you want to get accomplished and through through. But don't do it in a way where you're berating the audience or wagging your finger at them. 'cause their neck will get stiff and they'll bristle at what you're schlepping.

Kevin Goetz (28:00):

You ended up casting another very big movie star in the role of Bosley and it was not easy to get him correct?

McG (28:07):

Oh, heavens no. He has like an 800 number. Literally it was a concerted effort between Drew doing what she had to do. Amy Pascal, who had some modicum of relationship with, with Bill Murray and then Mitch Glazer, who knew Bill, and we, it was a trifecta triangle offense. Yeah. He wouldn't return anyone's call. He's fabulous in that regard. The guy dances to his own tune. I really, really like him and look up to the way he's managed his one and only career. And we didn't know. We didn't know. We didn't know. And then we finally got him to do it and of course he was magical. And the rest is history.

Kevin Goetz (28:41):

One time he was at a screening. I, I think it was Fantastic Mr. Fox. And we snuck him in the back and at the end, you know, usually the talent, we sneak them out before the lights come up. But in this case, he stayed in his seat, no one saw him, but he was filling out a questionnaire with the rest of the audience. And my staff member ran over to me and said, Bill Murray's filling out a questionnaire. He said, well grab it so we don't include it in the count. So afterwards I started looking at it and it's rated like poor, fair, good, fair. And in the open-ended comment section, it said favorite parts. Whenever the Badger who Bill Murray played was on screen, that was my favorite part. Least favorite scenes. Mrs. Fox. Anything she was in too bad she can't act. It was Meryl Streep. It was the funniest questionnaire I think I'd ever read. I saved that questionnaire because it is so hysterical.

McG (29:33):

That should be on the wall over here somewhere.

Kevin Goetz (29:33):

I know. Gimme a screening that you attended where you remember some audience member said something, some person in a focus group said something that really motivated a big change. Anything that comes to mind?

McG (29:48):

Well, I think I've had that experience every single time we've worked together.

Kevin Goetz (29:52):

Is it usually a particular person or is it usually like the group of people saying something?

McG (29:57):

I approach your work in the following way. Beat one. I feel the room. I think it's unbelievably important that I am sitting in the room and I feel the room. You always do such a good job bringing together an eclectic and appropriate audience, which you could do a whole, I hope you do an episode about just the magic of what goes into that recruit. It's a whole thing unto itself, but it's always appropriate. I find that I'm very, very pleased with, okay, these are people we should be talking to about this movie. I always say, if Tom Ford is doing a collection for fall of 2025, he shouldn't go ask people exiting Walmart what they think. That's not his customer. That's right. You gotta know who asks.

Kevin Goetz (30:35):

Wasted real estate. Exactly.

McG (30:36):

So you would always go, oh, this is what this movie is. So I feel the room. Okay. And I know that if too many people are going to the restroom, too many people are shifting in their seats. Too many people are, it's not going well. You taught me this and then I study this is where that's happening. I'm losing them here at the end.

Kevin Goetz (30:51):

It’s not going well perhaps in that area. Exactly. They're becoming not engaged. Why?

McG (30:55):

Or conversely, they're laser lock. Nobody's going pee every Okay. It's going well. Right.

Kevin Goetz (30:59):

By the way, in lesser hands, I'm sorry to say, a company that's just giving you the facts at the moment are gonna say, yeah, cut the sleepwalking scene in Macbeth. Yeah, but that's not what we're saying. We're saying. Correct. Why are they, why are they fidgeting in that sleepwalking scene? Which is arguably one of the best written scenes in the history. History of literature. Yes. So that's what I mean. 

McG (31:18):

Yeah. But my beats to get to that seminal moment are feel the room. Then I'll wiggle out into the hallway and go, how are we doing? As you start to get the early count, figure that out. Then we'll go in and we'll do the focus group, then we'll have the chat afterward. And I've had moments throughout each of those that have gone off with an incredible light bulb. I mean, I remember on Charlie's that there was something about that where we couldn't take it to blue because at the time the girls were very aggressive and they wanted to play like the boys. So there were jokes in there that were edgy and could even get to being decidedly blue. And people wanted to retain that idealized vision of these three ladies that know how to do it, but certainly have this patina of elegance. There was an elegance component, even with the degree to which they were willing to be self-deprecating and do everything to sort of lift the veil.

McG (32:15):

I found that fascinating. And I remember there was this one woman at a screening that maybe we did at, would it have been Thousand Oaks? Sure. Back in those. Does that make sense? Yep. That it's Thousand Oaks. 'cause again, I couldn't get on a plane. 'cause at that time, I think there was also when we would occasionally go to like Peoria, Arizona. Correct. But I remember one in Thousand Oaks and this young woman, a Rubenesque cherubic young woman, didn't like a joke that Cameron's character had made. And it was a joke that almost felt at the expense of what it means to be attractive as a woman. Ah. And I remember a light bulb going off and just that saved the movie in so many ways.

Kevin Goetz (32:52):

Almost like body shaming or something.

McG (32:54):

Yeah, yeah, yeah. And it was long before any of that stuff. And it's just sort of, that's what you mean as far as if you're wise enough to pay attention and you go, you know what guys, we don't really need that thing. I talked to Kevin about it. We can simply make this adjustment. It doesn't compromise. The film does not, we're not talking about an integrity issue. But then we can lose that moment of checkout where you can further solidify the audience and keep building on all that goodwill and engagement you have been building upon without taking a giant step backwards and having to rerack and reconfirm the engagement of the audience.

Kevin Goetz (33:23):

Last week I did a screening where the word goddamnit was in it. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. But it's in PG 13 movie and it stood out like a sore thumb. There you go. And if you look at the go over the flyover states, the red states in particular, you'll often find that that word is more inflammatory than the F-bomb. Oh, no doubt. And so by having that in there, it pulled people out of the movie for that instant and it's not worth it. But people don't understand. Well it's just goddamnit. No, it's just goddamnit in New York and LA perhaps,

McG (33:51):

But in Nebraska it's different. It's very sacred.

Kevin Goetz (33:52):

It could be quite different. Yeah. So I often say be very careful of those little things. There was another screening I did where the one violent piece was the bullet going through the pilot's skull and a splash of blood goes on the plane windshield. And I said, take out the blood. There's no reason to have it. Just have him be shot. It created that gratuitous quality that you didn't need in that PG-13 movie. Correct. It didn't enhance it. Some filmmakers might think, oh, it's gonna edge it up or something. No, you're more conscious of it in some way. 

McG (34:26):

But you must understand that the degree to which you've influenced me is so much more than that moment we share together at the screening. I take what I've learned from you to production prep, shoot everything on the next movie, and I'll shoot it too far to the left and I'll shoot it too far to the right. I'll go up, I'll go down knowing that I want to give myself the latitude that Kevin would advocate should that, oh, that's too far with the bullet and the thing on the screen we need, oh, but I've got that. I know what to do, Kevin.

Kevin Goetz (34:53):

Or especially the ending.

McG (34:54):

You bet your boots.

Kevin Goetz (34:55):

Because I've seen you do that beautifully.

McG (34:57):

That's the degree of your influence.

Kevin Goetz (34:59):

Well that's really kind of you to say. I appreciate it. But also it shows that you have a respect for the people you're making this for. I mean, that really is what it comes down to. And that's what gives me the great satisfaction of hearing that point.

McG (35:10):

Well, don't you like helping people to improve their films?

Kevin Goetz (35:12):

A hundred percent. I have a true, true respect for you and for all filmmakers and editors and producers. Yeah. And I have a real reverence for people in the filmmaking world because there is so much sacrifice. 

McG (35:26):

Yeah. So when the rubber hits the road, it's not fun getting a bad score. And I've given you a movie or two that didn't get such a hot score.

Kevin Goetz (35:32):

Which one didn't get a hot score?

McG (35:34):

Well, what didn't get such a hot score.

Kevin Goetz (35:36):

We are Marshall got a huge score.

McG (35:38):

We are Marshal. I completely changed the manner in which the plane crashed because of you. The inciting incident of the he whole film's a tragic film. Football teams flying home from a game, the plane crashes, they lose the whole football team. The town builds himself back up from the ashes. The beginning of the McCannesance, one of the first movies where McConaughey was really trying to become a more serious actor. He did a great job in that film. And you and I are working on that movie and I overdid it. The plane crash was too violent. It was taking people out of it. And the way I ultimately expressed that was probably five or six frames. And we talk about there's 24 frames in a second movie. So it's very, very brief. This five or six, just the beginnings of it. And I got it out and you gave me that tip and it revolutionized the movie. And the movie scored far better because of it.

Kevin Goetz (36:20):

Well I think it was also a very painful movie to experience, but so uplifting at the same time. Yeah, sure. How a community comes together, man. 'cause it wasn't really about that. It was about what happened after that. 

McG (36:32):

Yeah. But also learning that lesson had to be incorporated into the cut pattern for me.

Kevin Goetz (36:37):

Who would you say is your, or are your primary influences? I wanted to ask you that. And I also want to ask you, who is a mentor to you, but it could be one of the same. But let's take the first question first, which is, who influenced you as a filmmaker?

McG (36:52):

Well, I was lucky, you and I are similar in this way. We were lucky to be there for home video because when I was real young, I had to go to the art theater where they'd program sort of two days at a time and you'd see the old Mario Baba movie, or you'd see Battleship Potemkin and you'd do the thing, but it was hard because you were subject to the programming. But then with the advent of home video, you could rent the totality of Alfred Hitchcock and sit and watch 39 Steps and learn and absorb and learn and absorb. And I would have to say Alfred Hitchcock as uninspired as that answer is.

Kevin Goetz (37:25):

It’s not uninspired at all.

McG (37:26):

But, but you know, just from a place of, of discipline and command and respect for the craft.

Kevin Goetz (37:33):

And building suspense.

McG (37:34):

Indeed.

Kevin Goetz (37:35):

I mean truly building suspense with the most subtle camera movements.

McG (37:39):

Indeed. And then speaking of camera, I mean, you look at Rope, which they had to hide some cuts 'cause the film would run out, but meant to be a single shot. And I would just marvel at that whole thing. And to this day, I still try to build in one big oner in every movie I do. You know.

Kevin Goetz (37:51):

What's a oner?

McG (37:52):

Where you don't cut or you cloak the cuts that you must have?

Kevin Goetz (37:56):

And what does that mean? 

McG (37:57):

Well, that means nowadays it's quite easy. You can have a well-timed extra cross and that wipe will give you an opportunity to get it in there with, you know, an edit and then continue on to a second take, even though it feels like one continuous take. So I like to do that. And obviously, you know, Boogie Nights opens with a great wonder. That's amazing. And I do that because Rope affected me so much to that, a contemporary influence. Once I sort of got going was certainly Quentin, because Quentin, I was making music videos at A Band Apart, which was Quentin's production company. And he was part of that. Who the is this guy? McG? What kind of guy calls himself? McG. He ain't doing it. And Amy called Quentin and Quentin goes, I think this guy can do it. 

Kevin Goetz (38:35):

So he backed this up.

McG (38:36):

This is when she was trying to not hire me on Charlie's. Right. And Quentin goes, no, he's making videos for us. He's a responsible guy. He can do it. He is got a point of view. Whatever he said was enough magic dust for her to begrudgingly hire me.

Kevin Goetz (38:49):

Well, I just saw the Guy Ritchie movie, The Ministry of Ungentlemanly Warfare. It is so good.

McG (38:52):

I know.

Kevin Goetz (38:53):

It is so entertaining and it's very reminiscent of Quentin and that sort of influence of killing Nazis in this respect. Yeah, it was so fun. Yeah, it's funny. And I urge everyone to see that picture. What are you working on right now? Well, but

McG (39:07):

What I love about Guy Richie and what I love about Quentin, my favorite sort of filmmaking is the synthesis of highbrow and lowbrow. And that's always, always been my goal. And it's funny, we're talking a lot about Charlie's Angels today. I think that was successfully done in Charlie's where Mm-Hmm.

Kevin Goetz (39:24):

<affirmative>. Mm-Hmm

McG (39:25):

It was pop and you could take it on this superficial level, but it was vibrating on this other frequency with references and Bill Murray isms and thing that the more sophisticated viewer might raise an eyebrow on good, is that really this song or that song? Or is that they using this and just sort of vibrating on two frequencies? And obviously Guy Ritchie does that at a very high level and Quentin does it better than anybody in the world. And that's always been my goal.

Kevin Goetz (39:50):

Well, <inaudible> <laugh>, and

McG (39:53):

Right now I'm working on a movie with Chris Pratt, it's called Way of the Warrior Kid. It's a book series done by this famous Navy Seal, Jocko Willink. Basically a Navy Seal is on a mission, gets hurt, has to go home and heal up with his sister, who's got a kid who's underachieving, a 12, 13-year-old kid, and the Seal isn't looking to help this kid out. He's trying to heal up so he can get back in and complete his mission. But along the way, very Karate kid-esque.

Kevin Goetz (40:16):

Oh, I was just gonna say, I'm so in <laugh>,

McG (40:19):

He's gonna help this kid and this kid's more importantly gonna help him. Wow. Because it's a big thing that you wanna remember, not dwell. And that's very difficult. You know what I mean.

Kevin Goetz (40:29):

That's a great script and that idea has been done, but this sounds like a great take on it.

McG (40:34):

But I love archetypal ideas. You know, boy meets girl, boy meet boy has been done. I doesn't mean I don't love it. You know what I mean? It's just, everything's about, I'm very into Jung and Archetypes and Joseph Campbell Hero's Journey business and what have you.

Kevin Goetz (40:48):

Did you ever read He by Robert Johnson? 

McG (40:50):

Yeah. Of course. He is obviously a touchstone of that whole.

Kevin Goetz (40:52):

I know. Oh, but God, you and I are so aligned. Yeah. In our No, in our sort of emotional journey. Correct. It's really crazy. 

McG (40:59):

But there's always a way to do it with, I mean, I don't know, it's like music, there's only 12 notes. Doesn't mean that you and I have heard every song, you know, it's what you do with them. It's the manner of what you put it together. You know, you think you it all.

Kevin Goetz (41:09):

Oh, I was gonna say, actually there's only seven, but it's really with the Flats and Sharps <laugh>. Yeah.

McG (41:13):

Yes. Please tell me I got that right.

Kevin Goetz (41:15):

Yes, yes. So Mentor, who was a mentor to you growing up, was there a particular someone who really took under their wing? 

McG (41:22):

Well, I mean, I had a psychology teacher, which is why I, I wanted to become a psychiatrist, which was primarily just so I could heal myself, which is why I always, there are a lot of great therapists out there, but heads up, there are some therapists that got into it for, for the wrong reasons as well. And you wanna be very careful because you're talking about your own emotional wellbeing. But yeah.

Kevin Goetz (41:38):

And you're so fragile.

McG (41:39):

Yeah, and I mean, but I had a psychology teacher, Mr. Moreno, that I stayed in touch with after I'd gone through his class in high school. And I was obviously going through some pretty big problems and challenges then of my own. And yeah, that was sort of like led me to do a deep dive. And I mean, it's not that normal for a 15-year-old kid to be reading Freud in the standard edition. I was so hell Ben on trying to cure my own ills. It took me all the way through almost going to med school until I finally reconciled. My loves are music and film. So I had that guy as a mentor, my older sister, my older brother, both Rock and Rollers. My sister was blasting disco, my brother's blasting rock and roll, my dad's taken us to go see the Sound of Music. Those are my favorite moments. You put that bouillabaisse together and I'm basically a gay man that sleeps with women.

Kevin Goetz (42:23):

Yeah. I love it.

McG (42:24):

You know what movie I wanna make? I wanna make Cabaret. Oh and I need to go see the Eddie Redmayne because I'm…

Kevin Goetz (42:29):

So, I'm going in two weeks.

McG (42:30):

I wanted to go last night, but I had to come home, had to work and yeah, I hear it's fantastic. Can I do it in the round?

Kevin Goetz (42:35):

Can I tell you, as a performer, that was the role I was most associated with MC growing up.

McG (42:41):

Wow.

Kevin Goetz (42:41):

Yeah, that was my role. 

McG (42:42):

And obviously Joel winning the Academy Award. Oh man. And then, I mean the Alan version, oh my gosh. Sam Mendez expression is just so incredible. And I mean, and I, it's,

Kevin Goetz (42:51):

I’m sure Eddie is just brilliant, right?

McG (42:53):

Yeah, I'm sure of it. And it's the talk of the town. Everybody's talking about it. And my other dream project of course is Spring Awakening. And I almost got that done and I just wasn't able to get it.

Kevin Goetz (43:01):

You also have another movie coming out called Uglies. 

McG (43:04):

Yeah, Uglies with Joey King.

Kevin Goetz (43:05):

Joey King, yeah. It's great. Netflix, right?

McG (43:06):

Which is, yeah, it's a youth YA sort of young adult dystopic thing in the vein of Hunger Games and Maze Runner, what have you. But it's interesting, it's really basically a story about a society where you're able to have a procedure at 16 to design what you look like. Whoa. And it's an obviously a descriptor of what kids are going through today with Face Tune. And you can't just post a shot, you gotta filter it and get rid of your blemishes and clean up the cellulite. And really the message is beauty is interior and a little more effort should go into your interior beauty game than your exterior beauty game.

Kevin Goetz (43:40):

One last question. Is there a leitmotif that runs through every movie, every show, everything that you've done as an artist in everything that you've been involved with?

McG (43:51):

Yeah, I mean, I sort of, I live by the motto, if you can't rock and roll, don't fuckin’ come. And I just think that,

Kevin Goetz (44:00):

What does that mean? Come to play? 

McG (44:01):

Yeah. Just come to the party, come in. And I just, I'm very, very up with people. You know me and you know that to be a part of that. But at the same time, I don't believe in infantalizing adults. I believe in adult conversation. I believe in having a mutual respect for people and honoring them. And I believe in doing it with a light touch. So I think life is difficult and life can be filled with pain and suffering. So I kind of have this Roberto Benini-esqu, even in the face of the darkest moment, come out of it with the song. And I think it's how Robert Downey has frankly navigated a life where he had to take the crunchy and the smooth. And I've always been attracted to people like that. And I've always tried to have that be a through line in my work.

Kevin Goetz (44:42):

It is a through line of your work, number one. Number two, you have extraordinary EQ. You are blessed with it. It is definitely a superpower of yours. And I am so glad that you opened up to me today and shared your stories and people are gonna really respond to this. You are a very special man in my life, and I so respect you and your talent.

McG (45:03):

I’m so thankful for our friendship. You and I have been buddies a long time and it means the world to me. I think you just realize it as you move on down the road, friendships are everything and the people in your life and it's just so important to take care and nurture those friendship and the people that you've walked the path with. There's nothing like it.

Kevin Goetz (45:19):

I completely agree with that. Thank you and thanks for joining me, McG. I really, really appreciate it. To our listeners, I hope you enjoyed our interview. Keep your eyes out this year on Netflix for the film adaptation of Scott Westerfield's Uglies, directed by the one and only McG. For more filmmaking and audience testing stories, I invite you to check out my book, Audienceology, at Amazon or through my website at KevinGoetz360.com. Next time on Don't Kill the Messenger, I'll welcome actress, human rights activist, painter, and writer, the beautiful, the iconic, Sharon Stone. Until then, I'm Kevin Goetz, and to you, our listeners, I appreciate you being part of the movie-making process. Your opinions matter.

Host: Kevin Goetz
Guest: McG
Producer: Kari Campano
Writers: Kevin Goetz, Darlene Hayman, and Kari Campano
Audio Engineer:  Gary Forbes, DG Entertainment