Podcast: Don't Kill the Messenger with Movie Research Expert Kevin Goetz 
Guest:  Producer, Bestselling Author, and Motivational Speaker, DeVon Franklin
Interview Transcript:

Announcer (00:02):

There's a little-known part of Hollywood that most people are not aware of, known as the audience test preview. The recently released book Audienceology reveals this for the first time. Our podcast series, Don't Kill the Messenger brings this book to life, taking a peek behind the curtain. And now join author and entertainment research expert, Kevin Goetz.

Kevin Goetz (00:24):

Oprah Winfrey says my guest today is a different kind of spiritual teacher for our times. Variety Magazine lists him as one of the top 10 producers to watch. Ryan Seacrest describes him as a self-help master, and Ebony Magazine has included him on the list of top 100 influential African Americans in America. Listeners, today I have with me veteran studio executive, film and TV producer, bestselling author, and motivational speaker, DeVon Franklin. He's the driving force of the successful inspirational films, Breakthrough, Miracles from Heaven and Flaming Hot, as well as the BET series Kingdom Business. He's done so many other movies, which we're going to talk about today. And so DeVon, I am so happy to have you here, my friend <laugh>. Welcome.

DeVon Franklin (01:14):

Glad to be here too, my brother. Thank you so much. Truly appreciate it.

Kevin Goetz (01:19):

Well, you're a blessing. 

DeVon Franklin (01:20):

Oh, thank you.

Kevin Goetz (01:21):

I have to say to our listeners, not only all of those monikers, but also a supreme gentleman, <laugh>, I remember us having lunch. I don't know, we just had lunch a couple months ago, but this was like maybe, I don’t know, five, seven years ago.

DeVon Franklin (01:37):

Yes, right. First time having lunch. 

Kevin Goetz (01:39):

Was it our first time? I think so. Okay. So we were at Hanoki and the Bird. Yes. And we had a wonderful lunch. And a couple days later in the mail is a handwritten note, <laugh> from you to me saying, I so enjoyed our lunch. And I was like, who is this guy? Because I actually thought I was the only person who still writes handwritten notes. So we share that.

DeVon Franklin (02:02):

Yes, it's important. It was good. You had done so many of my films, but we had never really gotten a chance to connect. So I wanted to just say, hey man, that was great. Thank you.

Kevin Goetz (02:10):

I want to start back because there is a leitmotif that runs through DeVon Franklin. And it's one of spirituality, it's one of grace. It's one of the values that you and I share of that making people feel a certain way. Yeah. Making people feel really good about themselves and acknowledging and living in gratitude. And we've shared those conversations. But I do want to find out where did that come from? What was your upbringing that led you to such a positive place?

DeVon Franklin (02:42):

Yeah, that's a great question. You know, it probably came from, first and foremost, my mother. My mother raised me and my older brother, younger brother, I'm the middle of three boys, raised us in the Bay Area, Northern California. And from the time I can remember, she always had us in church. She always had us learn in our memory verses our scripture verses, uh, when we were younger.

Kevin Goetz (03:05):

But see, you're a Seventh Day Adventist.

DeVon Franklin (03:06):

I was raised Seventh Day Adventist. Yes. Yes.

Kevin Goetz (03:08):

I was involved very closely with Desmond Doss. Oh

DeVon Franklin (03:12):

Yeah, yeah. Hacksaw Ridge.

Kevin Goetz (03:13):

Hacksaw Ridge. And the whole origin of that, which you could talk about in the, that, that is how I got familiar with that denomination. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. And so you went every Sunday. Is that?

DeVon Franklin (03:25):

Every Saturday.

Kevin Goetz (03:26):

That every, that's one of the differences of a Seventh Day Adventist.

DeVon Franklin (03:28):

Yeah. So it's a Christian denomination that observed Sabbath. And so I was raised observing Sabbath.

Kevin Goetz (03:33):

So, Which is, as you and I talked about. Yeah. 'cause I've invited you in my house for Yeah. Shabbat Yes, yes. Dinner. And you're saying you understand it differently than many other Christians. Correct?

DeVon Franklin (03:42):

Totally. Because I practiced it every week. Friday night sundown is Saturday night sundown.

Kevin Goetz (03:46):

And what was church like for you? 

DeVon Franklin (03:48):

Church was great. We would go to church Sabbath morning. So similar to, you know, when Jews go to synagogue, it's like Saturday morning. Sure. That's when our church service was. But instead of doing our Shabbat dinner Friday night, we would do it Sabbath after church. So that would be our time to come together, either as a church, we would do fellowship dinner downstairs that the church I grew up in, or we would go over to one of my family members' house and have dinner there. And I

Kevin Goetz (04:09):

Think you had an uncle who is a preacher, right?

DeVon Franklin (04:11):

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. My uncle, Dr. DJ Williams, who passed away a few years ago, started the church that I grew up in. He started that when I was nine years old.

Kevin Goetz (04:18):

And was he mom or dad's brother?

DeVon Franklin (04:20):

He was my mother's

Kevin Goetz (04:22):

Sister's husband. Aunt.

DeVon Franklin (04:24):

So my mother's aunt. 

Kevin Goetz (04:26):

Oh, so your great great aunt.

DeVon Franklin (04:27):

Yeah, great aunt's husband. There you go. Yeah.

Kevin Goetz (04:30):

And if I'm not mistaken, 'cause I remember from our last lunch you told me, weren't there like seven?

DeVon Franklin (04:35):

Yes. There was, aunties. Yeah. Yes. My grandmother had seven sisters and one brother, and six of them are still living.

Kevin Goetz (04:41):

Wow. Yeah. Because you were on your way to dinner that night. Yes. It was your birthday, I think. Yep. For a birthday dinner. And you said she was going to make me this and this. I was like, oh, <laugh>. So I could smell those, those scents, you know. Oh, yeah. Emanating, I used to say, when we would visit my grandmother in Brooklyn, and if you went on a Friday for Shabbat, the entire building emanated with this wafting of scent of roast chicken and chicken soup and my goodness. All of those. Yes. Those Jewish foods. Yeah. And I bet you felt the same way.

DeVon Franklin (05:15):

Oh, without a doubt.

Kevin Goetz (05:16):

What were some of your favorites?

DeVon Franklin (05:18):

Well see, growing up the Adventist religion preaches a lot about vegetarianism. So a lot of times growing up, even though we weren't necessarily raised as vegetarian, there was always these different vegetarian dishes that my grandmother and my great aunts would cook that we would love.

Kevin Goetz (05:33):

Well, that's why you look the way you look.

DeVon Franklin (05:35):

<laugh>. So maybe a little bit.

Kevin Goetz (05:36):

Okay, so we're, we're not on camera, but let me just say he's a stud. Oh, anyway. He is. You are, you are. You're too kind. 

DeVon Franklin (05:44):

You're too kind. 

Kevin Goetz (05:45):

You're such a good looking guy. Thank you. I think you are just so, uh, great on every level. Thank you. So it's a little bit of a man crush. <laugh>. But no need to be concerned.

DeVon Franklin (05:54):

<laugh>. Not at all.

Kevin Goetz (05:55):

It's all love. Our friendship outweighs it all. So DeVon, talk to me about the kind of influence, the values that were given to you. Yeah. That will inform the man that was to come.

DeVon Franklin (06:05):

Sure. A lot of it was discipline based. My mother having this chart on the refrigerator of me and my brothers, and the chores that we were supposed to do. And we would get a star if we did them. So it was like discipline. Make your bed, vacuum, clean the house.

Kevin Goetz (06:19):

And she essentially raised you as a single mom. She did. 'cause your father died very young.

DeVon Franklin (06:22):

He did. And even when he was alive, he was still in and out of our house. He was an alcoholic, struggled with alcoholism for most of my entire life. So she did raise us as a single parent. And, and she instilled a lot of discipline. You gotta go to school, you gotta look clean, you gotta do well at school, you gotta be polite. If we were outta line, trust me, she would get us in line quick. And that was the foundation of discipline and doing your best and looking your best and doing well in school and being polite, saying thank you. Saying you're welcome. Saying ma'am, saying mister, those were all the things that.

Kevin Goetz (06:53):

That's the foundation. How do you end up becoming a preacher?

DeVon Franklin (06:56):

Well, that was organic.

Kevin Goetz (06:58):

As a child actor and someone who lived it and believed it was in my blood. Yeah. I can understand it, but explain it to our listeners more so please.

DeVon Franklin (07:06):

Sure. Yes. So my father died when I was nine. And the same year my great uncle, Dr. DJ Williams, started the ministry that we ended up growing up in. I spent my adolescence in, which was called Wings of Love.

Kevin Goetz (07:17):

Also Seventh Day Adventist.

DeVon Franklin (07:19):

Well, it wasn't technically Seventh Day Adventist because it was an independent ministry, but it still had a lot of the tenets of Seventh Day Adventism. So technically, because it wasn't a part of the official denomination, it couldn't be called Seventh Day Adventist. So we were Sabbath keeping church. But pretty much if you went to One Adventist church and you went to Wings of Love, there were a lot of similarities.

Kevin Goetz (07:36):

So, you can be a preacher without having a congregation.

DeVon Franklin (07:39):

You can, yeah, you can, for sure. 

Kevin Goetz (07:41):

Did you ever have a congregation?

DeVon Franklin (07:41):

No. 'cause when I was 15 going to Wings of Love, I was the second year that we were doing our Youth Day. And Youth Day was a service where the, the youth would basically run the entire service. And so they asked me to preach for that service. And because I was already involved with the youth, I said, okay, so I did it. And people just responded and they were like, oh, you know, this is great and you gotta keep preaching and you have the gift of ministry, and you have the gift of preaching. And I'm like, I hear you, but I'm going to Hollywood. Like I wanna make movies. Right. <laugh>, okay.

Kevin Goetz (08:10):

Whoa. Wow. Well that was a left turn. How do you go from that to I'm going to Hollywood?

DeVon Franklin (08:14):

Because I was always fascinated by entertainment. Tell me that. Always. Tell, tell me that. You know, I mean, I think even when my father died, entertainment just was therapy. Watching movies and watching. 

Kevin Goetz (08:22):

What was your first movie that was an had an influence on you?

DeVon Franklin (08:24):

Oh, man. Like Color Purple.

Kevin Goetz (08:25):

Oh my God. Was that Steven Spielberg version, right?

DeVon Franklin (08:29):

Yes, Steven. Oh man, that's, that's one of his best films ever.

Kevin Goetz (08:31):

And you know what's amazing is I read that book, I loved that book. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. I said, oh, they're going to ruin it. Then when I heard Steven Spielberg was going to do, I said, well, he's certainly not going to ruin it. Right. And then it actually was as good as the book, which are very powerful words. 

DeVon Franklin (08:46):

Yes. Right. Oh, so powerful. So I mean, that movie, and I can watch it right now.

Kevin Goetz (08:49):

Whoopi Goldberg and Mark Avery, brilliant. Oprah, Oprah.

DeVon Franklin (08:53):

<laugh>, I mean, unbelievable. Danny Glover.

Kevin Goetz (08:56):

That was a tremendous movie. So Color Purple was an influence. What else? Anything?

DeVon Franklin (09:01):

Yes, Rocky 1, 2, 3, 4. <laugh>.

Kevin Goetz (09:03):

I believe you also have talked publicly about really admiring Sylvester Stallone.

DeVon Franklin (09:08):

Oh my goodness. Just that story of Rocky, I mean,

Kevin Goetz (09:11):

Of how he got it made you mean? 

DeVon Franklin (09:13):

Yeah, no, just, I mean that's, that's inspirational. But just rocky in of itself. I mean, feeling like he was just going back to the first one, feeling that he was a bum, but he still had this dream of being this heavyweight contender. And when you go back and watch that first film, it's amazing. Like, he's like, listen, I don't even need to win. I just want to go the distance to prove to myself that I am something. And I just resonated with that as a middle child and trying to find my place in the world and not always feeling.

Kevin Goetz (09:36):

I'm a middle child also.

DeVon Franklin (09:37):

Okay. So you understand,

Kevin Goetz (09:39):

I understand all too well.

DeVon Franklin (09:40):

You do.

Kevin Goetz (09:41):

<laugh>. So let me ask you then, was USC, which is where you went to film school, correct?

DeVon Franklin (09:45):

Yeah. No, I went to, I did a business major and a film minor. Yeah.

Kevin Goetz (09:48):

Your mother would never let you do a film major.

DeVon Franklin (09:51):

<laugh>. Well, they rejected me. That was the thing. USC Film School rejected me as an undergrad.

Kevin Goetz (09:56):

Major note to USC film school, you make mistakes <laugh>. So, but you ended up doing a minor in film. Yes, I did. But you went to Hollywood, meaning you went to SC at first. Yes. Because you wanted and had the love of film. Well, wanting to direct, right? Mm-Hmm. <affirmative> Produce.

DeVon Franklin (10:12):

No Produce. Produce was always the goal. Oh, it was always the, the vision.

Kevin Goetz (10:15):

Did you even know what a producer did at that point?

DeVon Franklin (10:17):

Yeah. I mean, because I did a lot of research on the movies I liked, who was producing what, how it kind of all worked. So when I went to USC, even though I got rejected from the film school as a major, I still went ahead and figured I needed to be in LA. So I accepted admission at USC, became a business major, film minor. But then that freshman year I got an internship working for the company that managed Will Smith and Jada and Jennifer Lopez and so many great talent. 

Kevin Goetz (10:43):

Overbrook?

DeVon Franklin (10:44):

No, it was actually the company that preceded Overbrook. It was a company called Hand Print Entertainment that was run by. Who ran that? Benny Medina and James Lassiter and Peter Golden. Oh wow. Yeah. And then eventually David Gilad went there and Al Alderado, you know, it was a Wow.

Kevin Goetz (10:58):

Yeah. That preceded it.

DeVon Franklin (10:59):

That preceded it. Yes. Yes. Hand Print actually gave birth to Overbrook

Kevin Goetz (11:03):

And then Overbrook was formed with James Lassiter and Will Smith. Correct. Tell me about your experience at Overbrook, because that really did inform a lot for you.

DeVon Franklin (11:14):

Yeah.

Kevin Goetz (11:15):

And they actually made you a junior executive, didn't they, at a school?

DeVon Franklin (11:19):

No. What? Well, yes and no. So, okay. Tell me. When I was interning for them, you know, so I interned for hand print freshman and sophomore year. And then, uh, in my junior year, Will and James started Overbrook. And so I went to Overbrook, became their first intern. I interned there my junior and senior year. And then, you know, but while I was interning, I was interning in the film department and so they did allow me to, you know, basically have the role of like a development exec, a young development executive. And so I actually had, you know, projects I was working on and helping the other executives with their notes.

Kevin Goetz (11:52):

Invaluable.

DeVon Franklin (11:52):

Reading scripts and evaluating writers. And even had a project that I put together with the writer that we took into Universal. We took it into Scott Stuber at the time when he and Mary Parent were running Universal and pitched it to him. And he liked it. We ultimately didn't do it, but he liked it. And I was like, wow, I'm still in school and getting the opportunity to really see how this is done. So I got that opportunity to function that way, but it was never like an official thing.

Kevin Goetz (12:14):

Also having, having that imprimatur of Will Smith, you learn, gives you the entree into those meetings. Yes. And then the fact that you can then stand up and hold your head up and do a good job. Yes. Is just icing on the cake.

DeVon Franklin (12:30):

There you go. You know,

Kevin Goetz (12:31):

It was like, that's a good lesson.

DeVon Franklin (12:32):

It was a fantastic lesson.

Kevin Goetz (12:33):

So you get into Overbrook when you graduate?

DeVon Franklin (12:36):

I became an assistant when I graduated.

Kevin Goetz (12:38):

Who did you assist?

DeVon Franklin (12:39):

James Lassiter. Yeah, I was his second assistant.

Kevin Goetz (12:40):

You still close with James? Yeah, we're great. Oh great, great. Oh yeah. So James and you work together and then you get promoted to what?

DeVon Franklin (12:49):

I didn't, I quit. So I was there for two years.

Kevin Goetz (12:52):

'cause you weren't getting promoted? Correct.

DeVon Franklin (12:54):

So I was supposed to get promoted to become a junior executive basically in development. But that didn't happen. You know, they were going through changes at the time and making some different moves with the film department and brought in Teddy Z to run the film department. He was the one that was very instrumental in Hitch and produce Hitch and then has gone on to produce great stuff.

Kevin Goetz (13:12):

So where do you go from there?

DeVon Franklin (13:13):

So I ended up quitting working for Will and James because I wanted more opportunity. And at that point in time, like I'd interned for them in some capacity my entire college career. And then was an assistant for two years. And I figured like, okay, if there's no room for promotion that's fine, but I gotta go. So I ended up quitting and then got offered a development executive job by Tracy Edmonds, who was a very prominent producer at the time. She did Soul Food.

Kevin Goetz (13:37):

Was she still married to Babyface?

DeVon Franklin (13:38):

She was married. Babyface? Yes.

Kevin Goetz (13:40):

So I worked on soul food. Did I meet you there first? No. It was such a beautiful film about family. Yeah. George Tillman.

DeVon Franklin (13:47):

George Tillman. Yeah, definitely. That was his first.

Kevin Goetz (13:49):

Who was our guest. Still listen to the George Tillman episode as well, if you wanna learn about that movie. So you worked for Tracy?

DeVon Franklin (13:57):

Yes. For just a year and a half. And then MGM at the time was looking for a young executive. And so I went in, I interviewed and they hired me. So.

Kevin Goetz (14:05):

While you were working for Tracy Yes. But you, you got the job with Tracy having quit and not having a job. Correct? Yes. That takes a ballsack.

DeVon Franklin (14:13):

<laugh>. Yeah. I mean, but you gotta believe in yourself. You know, you gotta bet on yourself. 

Kevin Goetz (14:18):

A hundred percent.

DeVon Franklin (14:18):

I also believe you have to do a cost benefit analysis of any job that you're in, right? So it's like, okay, let's say you want to get promoted or you want to advance, but let's say the benefit of being there is greater than the cost. Meaning you're learning, even though you may not be where you want to be in the company, you're still learning, you're still growing, you're still getting opportunities that are contributing to your development. So that means the benefit is greater than the cost. The moment that you're at a place and that benefit stops and you're no longer growing and you're plateauing, then that means it's going to cost you more than the benefit. And that's when I think you should leave. And so for me, being at Overbrook was great, but then it started to cost me more because I plateaued. It's like I, there's no opportunity.

Kevin Goetz (14:58):

As an employer of 300 people, may I ask you a question? Yes. What do I as a boss do to alleviate that? Is there an interim step of remedy? For example, you are feeling like the cost benefit is not really working. Is it your responsibility to go to Tracy or whomever it is, James Lassiter or before that and say, look, I need to be promoted or I need to, sure. In other words, I always think it's a two-way street. Like you can't always expect your bosses to be the mind readers.

DeVon Franklin (15:28):

Yes. This is true. And so in the case of Overbrook, I did that certainly explored every.

Kevin Goetz (15:32):

It sounds like you did that. Yeah. Every Did you do it with Tracy too?

DeVon Franklin (15:34):

Well, I didn't because Tracy, I wasn't even looking to leave.

Kevin Goetz (15:36):

Oh, they recruited you?

DeVon Franklin (15:37):

I wasn't. Yeah. Yeah, they recruited me.

Kevin Goetz (15:38):

And you went to MGM, correct?

DeVon Franklin (15:39):

I went to MGM. But going back to your point for a moment, it's twofold. So here's what I mean by that. You are CEO of a dynamic company, like you said, 300 employees. So let's just look at NBA. Right? I love the NBA and if you're a coach or you're an owner and you have your top players, while it is a two-way street, the onus is on management and that coach to make sure that those top players feel wanted. That they are considered valued and that valued. And so that goes from the top down. If it's only on those top players to touch base with the coach and stuff, it may not go the way you want it to go. So in my experience, yes, of course it's always a two-way street. And of course if an employee is feeling certain things, take the initiative.

DeVon Franklin (16:21):

But I also would challenge any CEO to make sure that, you know, the lifeblood of your company is the talent that's there. And for your over performers, you need to make sure that they know that they're valued, they're wanted, you don't want 'em to go anywhere. And sometimes going above and beyond and make sure they feel great. Because at the end of the day, if your top performers aren't there, the company may suffer. So, and I think sometimes in our business there's not as much of a focus on like, oh well this person, no, they'll be okay. Well no. If they're your top performer and you want to do business with them as much as you want them to come to you, you go to them too.

Kevin Goetz (16:52):

That's a really good lesson. And I have to say with humility, I appreciate it.

DeVon Franklin (16:57):

Amen.

Kevin Goetz (16:57):

Appreciate that advice and reinforcement. Let me go before our break, which I wanna take in a moment 'cause I wanna get into some more meaty stuff. Yeah. You go from MGM and you get then recruited to Sony.

DeVon Franklin (17:11):

Well, I got recruited from from Tracy Edmonds to MGM. I was there for about six months, worked on Be Cool and Beauty Shop. And then six months in they put the company up for sale.

Kevin Goetz (17:21):

Oh right, Sony. Yes.

DeVon Franklin (17:23):

Bought Sony was one of the investors. 

Kevin Goetz (17:24):

Well one of the investors. Bought MGM bought. Yes. And so that gave you more of an entree into Sony. Well, yes. Yes. So they didn't absorb everyone.

DeVon Franklin (17:31):

They didn't absorb anyone. They, everyone got let go from MGM. But then myself and Elizabeth Cantillon where the only two executives.

Kevin Goetz (17:38):

I fust saw her 'cause she's working on the Alien. She's producing Alien.

DeVon Franklin (17:41):

Alien Romulus. Yeah. Yeah.

Kevin Goetz (17:42):

You keep in touch with her a lot?

DeVon Franklin (17:43):

We just had lunch. Absolutely.

Kevin Goetz (17:45):

Ah, she's the best.

DeVon Franklin (17:45):

Absolutely. I've known her for 20 years. She's so wonderful. Like love her dearly like Yeah. One of my closest mentors and friends. 

Kevin Goetz (17:51):

Isn't it wonderful that we have this business that we can talk like this about? Yeah. Folks that literally we came up with. Yes. And have these long standing relationships to, I'm having lunch today with my dear friend Susan Cartsonis. Oh. Who is an extraordinary producer. She was a studio executive at Fox for years. Wow. And she, we just became great friends. And it goes beyond the relationship. It actually morphs into this friendship. Yeah. And I love our business for that.

DeVon Franklin (18:20):

Oh yeah, me too. Me too. 

Kevin Goetz (18:21):

I love our business for that. So Sony, you had some very successful years at Sony.

DeVon Franklin (18:26):

Yes, yes.

Kevin Goetz (18:27):

Very successful. Yes. In fact, so wait, you started as a CE at Sony and I think you ended up making it to like senior vp. Yes. Correct. In the course of how many years?

DeVon Franklin (18:36):

Oh, that took, let's see, five, I want to say that may have taken seven years.

Kevin Goetz (18:43):

And you were like the highest ranking African American executive studio executive at that studio executive at that time. Yes. Which is great. And sad all at once. Completely.

DeVon Franklin (18:55):

Yeah, I agree with that.

Kevin Goetz (18:56):

You know, was Kevin Jones there?

DeVon Franklin (18:58):

No, this, this was after Kevin Jones. Okay.

Kevin Goetz (19:00):

'cause he was, yeah, he was great.

DeVon Franklin (19:01):

I met him a couple times and just here he was, you know. Yeah. He had a phenomenal reputation and left.

Kevin Goetz (19:06):

But we have such a lack of really Mm-Hmm. <affirmative> African American executives in our business. I know. And it needs to really shift because I know we need all voices in the rooms. I mean, truly in decision making. Absolutely. Not just in junior or creative executives, but people that can actually Green light.

DeVon Franklin (19:25):

That’s right.

Kevin Goetz (19:26):

So you were fortunate enough earned your stripes to produce several movies. Can you name a few there? Yeah. So when I say produce, oversee.

DeVon Franklin (19:35):

That's right. Because as an executive I'm overseeing, whereas now I'm actually producing. So the first movie I worked on when I was at Sony was Pursuit of Happyness. And it was just ironic that I quit working for Will and James and then ultimately end up as a, a studio executive.

Kevin Goetz (19:48):

Or was it Intervention?

DeVon Franklin (19:50):

There you go. Divine Intervention on, there you go. <laugh>.

Kevin Goetz (19:52):

Come on. No. DeVon Intervention.

DeVon Franklin (19:55):

I like it. I'll take it.

Kevin Goetz (19:56):

So

DeVon Franklin (19:56):

Coin that. 

Kevin Goetz (19:58):

I have to say, that's like so beautiful. Like Yeah. Wow. That it came full circle like that.

DeVon Franklin (20:02):

It did. It did.

Kevin Goetz (20:03):

Now they're probably saying, oh boy did we F up

DeVon Franklin (20:07):

<laugh>?

Kevin Goetz (20:08):

We let him go. Maybe we let him walk out the door. They may have. And now he's controlling the purse string.

DeVon Franklin (20:13):

Well, not so much.

Kevin Goetz (20:15):

But, and that movie was very successful.

DeVon Franklin (20:17):

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Pursuit of Happyness made almost as much domestically as Casino Royal did that year.

Kevin Goetz (20:22):

Isn't that something?

DeVon Franklin (20:23):

That amazing? I mean, when you think about it.

Kevin Goetz (20:24):

How a Bond movie.

DeVon Franklin (20:26):

That that, that is theory inspirational film. Just incredible. Yeah. It's, I mean to this day it's probably one of the most beloved films that Will.

Kevin Goetz (20:34):

Also also speaks to Will's star power. I mean, come on. Yeah. Okay. So Pursuit of Happyness is your first movie.

DeVon Franklin (20:41):

First movie that I worked on. And it was great because I was so…

Kevin Goetz (20:43):

Now you're a star. 

DeVon Franklin (20:45):

Well, I don't know about that.

Kevin Goetz (20:46):

In the studio.

DeVon Franklin (20:47):

What the thing that was unique about that movie was, first of all, I'm from the Bay Area and we shot a lot of the movie, like right in the areas where I grew up and where I worked and my, for my high school job. And it was just, that was just awesome. And then when we saw the first cut of the film, I didn't know at that time that there was a differentiation between what Creative Execs did and what Marketing Execs did. So I had no idea. So I was like, Hey, I love this movie. And I put together like this 40 page business plan. And I got it to Amy first and she loved it. And got it to Michael Lenton got it to Will and James. And then it circulated to marketing. 'cause I didn't know to get it to them first.

DeVon Franklin (21:25):

So then everybody's like, who's this exec that's doing a marketing plan and da da da. So long story short, I was able to successfully execute on that plan and took Will across the country to different events in the Faith-based space, and worked on him doing these personalized greetings to the top churches in the top 10 to 12 markets, along with the Faith-based trailer that we released to churches all across the country. And anyway, it was a massive success. And so that contribution to Pursuit of Happyness was really instrumental in its success. And so that was kind of the moment when folks were like, oh wow, DeVon sees something and knows something that we don't know.

Kevin Goetz (22:03):

Using the power of the church. Exactly. Using the power of marketing. Yes. And combining those two. Yes. When we come back, I want to talk about how that evolved for you and how the faith-based movies that you've now become so sort of famous for and known for in our business have served you and so many of us. We'll be back in a moment. Okay.

Announcer (22:30):

Get a glimpse into a secret part of Hollywood that few are aware of and that filmmakers rarely talk about in the new book Audienceology by Kevin Goetz. Each chapter is filled with never-before-revealed inside stories and interviews from famous studio chiefs, directors, producers, and movie stars, bringing the art and science of audienceology into focus. Audienceology, How Moviegoers Shape the Films We Love, from Tiller Press at Simon and Schuster. Available now.

Kevin Goetz (23:02):

We're back with DeVon Franklin. DeVon, before we go on to talk about faith-based films, I want to make a comment that Will Gluck, who directed Annie was a guest on the podcast and he talked about how he grew up on the streets where Annie was shot.

DeVon Franklin (23:19):

Wow.

Kevin Goetz (23:20):

And so he had the same sort of feeling of, I can't believe I'm back on these streets. Right. Working on this movie. It was like an out of body experience. I guess you felt the same way when you did a Pursuit of Happyness in Oakland.

DeVon Franklin (23:33):

Absolutely, yes. In Oakland. Yeah. Same experience. And it was, that's actually ironic you mentioned it because I was one of the executives that worked on Annie. 

Kevin Goetz (23:40):

That's why I’m bringing that up.

DeVon Franklin (23:41):

It was one of my last films that I did at Sony before I started producing.

Kevin Goetz (23:43):

Excuse me. I did my research.

DeVon Franklin (23:45):

<laugh>. I know you did.

Kevin Goetz (23:49):

I got research so that <laugh>, I knew that. I knew that. I knew that. Okay. I wanna start with something that is a little bit different. I wanna define a faith-based movie because I work on a lot of faith-based movies, but I also work on a lot of, I call faith friendly movies. Sure. And I also work with a lot of folks who think they have a faith-based movie, who have a faith friendly movie. And also people who think they have a faith-based movie who don't have a faith-based movie, nor a faith friendly movie <laugh>. So first I want to talk about what is your definition of a faith-based film?

DeVon Franklin (24:23):

Wow. That's a great question. And I don't even know if I have a clear answer for it. It's, it's kind of like what.

Kevin Goetz (24:30):

Let’s figure it out together.

DeVon Franklin (24:31):

It's one of those things that when I look at what it means is like the subject matter and the main characters through line is fundamentally rooted in a spiritual idea.

Kevin Goetz (24:45):

100%. I would also say from people that I've spoken to, that it must be a hammer movie. Meaning from the pulpit. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. You have to be able to slam down the gavel, the hammer, the Mm-Hmm. <affirmative> the gauntlet to say using those words from that movie can help in your sermon. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. And if it doesn't have that qual, which is high bar, by the way.

DeVon Franklin (25:08):

Very. <affirmative>

Kevin Goetz (25:09):

To be able to actually use that in with your congregants. Yeah. It's not faith-based. Mm-Hmm.

DeVon Franklin (25:15):

<affirmative>.

Kevin Goetz (25:15):

If it has good spiritual values, if it mentions God or the universe and is more spiritual than say religious, it's usually more faith friendly. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>, do you subscribe to that?

DeVon Franklin (25:31):

Well, I think, yes. And I think it depends on, again, who the movie is for. So if we're talking about a traditional faith-based movie that Hollywood has come to understand and recognize that traditionally means, you know, a Christian faith-based movie.

Kevin Goetz (25:46):

Oh, let's even go further than that. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. Because even that I have issue with, because in a way it's almost like the moniker that we put in Hollywood on urban movies. Right. <laugh> urban movies mean black movies.

DeVon Franklin (25:59):

Right.

Kevin Goetz (25:59):

Or multicultural movies mean Hispanic Latinx movies and they actually mean much more than that. But that's the pigeonholing I think that takes place. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative> faith-based movies really mean evangelical Christian. Yeah. Movies. Yeah. Is that true?

DeVon Franklin (26:18):

I think that is the understanding of it. That's right. But I also know that having done a lot of films in this space that appeal to different segments of the space, that the space is far bigger than just a white Christian evangelical audience. There are Latino segments of that audience. There are black segments of that audience.

Kevin Goetz (26:35):

But are they all evangelicals?

DeVon Franklin (26:37):

Some, you know. Well,

Kevin Goetz (26:38):

Because let's talk about miracle. Let's talk about Miracles from Heaven. Yeah. I tested that movie in Arizona, if you remember that screening.

DeVon Franklin (26:42):

Yeah. Yeah. We had such a good screening.

Kevin Goetz (26:44):

We had two screenings. Yeah. We had one really good screening. Yeah. We had one that was okay. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>, if you remember, and you've given me permission to talk about this.

DeVon Franklin (26:54):

Yes, of course.

Kevin Goetz (26:55):

So in one screening, it's faith-based level of intensity of how they consider self-identification of faith-based and also church avidity. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>, how often do you go to church? And also their level of how they call themselves religious or semi-religious or not religious at all. And we put the non-religious at all and somewhat religious in one theater.

DeVon Franklin (27:20):

Yes. <laugh>. Right.

Kevin Goetz (27:21):

And we put people who went to church every now and again in that same theter? No, in that same theater.

DeVon Franklin (27:28):

Was it the same? Yeah.

Kevin Goetz (27:28):

Oh, okay. But we put in the other theater that did really well were people who were either very religious Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. And were also going to church at least once a week. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. And there was a 20 to 30 point difference.

DeVon Franklin (27:43):

Yes. For those that the, those did not identify as faith. They were like, no. Correct. But those that did, they were like, yes. Correct. Got it. Yes. I remember this.

Kevin Goetz (27:51):

So, that is to me, very much in line with what you said before about the intrinsic or DNA Yeah. Of the property. Yeah. Having a more religious than actually spiritual. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative> feeling about it. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. Or based in religion. The other thing that I find very interesting about faith-based movies is have we ever really found a movie that appeals to Muslims, Jews, Catholics, Evangelicals that we call Faith-based? I don't believe so.

DeVon Franklin (28:27):

I mean, listen, I don't know.

Kevin Goetz (28:29):

Isn't that interesting though?

DeVon Franklin (28:30):

It is interesting. I mean, the only movie that comes to mind, but I don't know the demographics of that success of that film is the Passion of the Christ. That film is the biggest quote unquote faith based film.

Kevin Goetz (28:40):

Well, Jews weren't running into that film.

DeVon Franklin (28:42):

This is true <laugh>, but other demographics is possible.

Kevin Goetz (28:45):

You know, so I'm saying, and I don't think Muslims were either. Yeah. I think that was a Catholic driven and Christian driven, and I'm not even sure Evangelicals. 

DeVon Franklin (28:54):

Yeah. That I don't know. I don't know.

Kevin Goetz (28:55):

But you're very right about that. That was a massive success by the way. I was one of those folks who, when Mel was getting lambasted for his interpretation, I was like, it's his interpretation. He's an artist. We have to allow artists to be artists. And it wasn't the most popular position.

DeVon Franklin (29:12):

I'm sure.

Kevin Goetz (29:13):

Position to take. Yeah. But I really felt that. But this notion of helping young filmmakers determine if they have the goods or not. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. And they come to you with a property, what do you look at? What touches you? How do you determine whether it's faith based or not? Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. Because you'd be one of the experts I'd call <laugh>. Right? I'm serious. I get a movie and I'm uncertain whether it can make it or not. I usually have a few people that I call Jonathan Bach is one. Oh yeah. Of a group of folks who I will call and ask their opinions. You would be one of them. What would be your criteria?

DeVon Franklin (29:48):

Two things. One, does it touch me personally? Is this story as a man of God, a person of faith, is this story affecting my faith? Is it touching my faith? Is it in inspiring my faith? Strengthening my faith? That's first where it starts, just my own personal, like, oh yeah, you know, I'm a person of faith and this really is helping me. And then the second thing is marketability. Can I actually take this message, take this story, and market it to an audience that I believe will want it? And so sometimes I might find a story that I connect to as a person of faith, but then I don't think I can sell it. So I don't do it. And there are some other stories that I don't connect to that I think, oh man, this is probably very marketable, but it's not for me. 

Kevin Goetz (30:28):

What's an example of one that really worked? I mean, the one behind you comes to mind for me, which is Miracles from Heaven.

DeVon Franklin (30:33):

Yeah, of course. Yes. Yes.

Kevin Goetz (30:35):

Why did that work so well?

DeVon Franklin (30:36):

I think it worked for a couple of reasons. I mean, one, it's a great story. It's a great miraculous, true story about a young girl who had an incurable stomach condition and fell down the inside of a hollowed tree, hit her head three times, talked about the experience she had in heaven, and came out of the tree healed. And from that day to this, she's been healed. And so that story and the supernatural nature of it, I think just strikes a chord. But then also getting Jennifer Garner at the moment we got her, it's like she was doing things in TV, but her movie career, I don't think she had been in a movie in a while. She was navigating the divorce of the Ben Affleck marriage. And so we got her at a moment when there was so much goodwill, and there still is, but at that time it was like the apex of goodwill and people were rooting for her and wanting her and wanting to be supportive of her. And she just played that role of a mother and understanding what that meant to fight for her child in a way that transcended just an actress playing a role. When you watch that movie, she is just, I think it's one of her best performances.

Kevin Goetz (31:34):

Oh, that's wonderful. Do you remember, by the way, another Faith-based movie? Heaven is For Real. Yes. Where there was a major change made in the faith-based audience cut because I, I'll say the word and see if you remember the story. Angels.

DeVon Franklin (31:56):

<laugh>. Of course. I remember <laugh>.

Kevin Goetz (31:58):

Tell me, tell me what happened.

DeVon Franklin (31:59):

So in Heaven is For Real, which was the, you were an executive on there. I was the executive that oversaw that and championed that. And our director wanted to put this scene in there where there were these actual angels inside of the church. And it was one of those interesting, I mean he did ultimately a brilliant job, but from like the moment that he put it in the script to shooting it, to then testing it, I was always saying, no, this is not going to work. No, we can't see literal angels. Like let's leave it to the imagination so that audiences can have their own creation in their head of what an angel looks like, instead of like making it a literal thing. But when you are in this business, I think when filmmaker has a vision and a passion, try it and then let's leave it up to the audience to say, hey, does this work or not?

Kevin Goetz (32:42):

They just rejected completely.

DeVon Franklin (32:45):

They loved the movie, but they rejected that.

Kevin Goetz (32:46):

They loved the movie. And because that was such a standout because we as, I don't care if we're religious or not, have an idea of what an angel looks like.

DeVon Franklin (32:57):

That's right. And, and when you start making it literal.

Kevin Goetz (33:00):

Celestial. Right.

DeVon Franklin (33:02):

That, oh man, forget about it.

Kevin Goetz (33:03):

You and No, they wanted it literal <laugh>. They didn't want it to be to be kind of more supernaturally or something. 

DeVon Franklin (33:13):

What it was, was in, we originally had Angels that took human form inside the church, right. That were kind of, and they didn't wanna see dressed in this Roman kind of gear. And they were like, no, no, we don't want that. We'll take the ones that kind of look like lights in the sky.

Kevin Goetz (33:25):

We want the Halos.

DeVon Franklin (33:27):

But we don't want that. We don't want the literal like, oh wait, they look like this. Like, no. Like people like, no, they don't want that. So we ended up.

Kevin Goetz (33:34):

They want their perception.

DeVon Franklin (33:35):

That's right. That's right. So we ended up taking that whole scene out and then what we replaced it with was much more impressionistic. And that worked. I mean, that movie made a hundred million dollars. It's unbelievable, you know, worldwide. And it's still to this day, one of the most successful faith-based movies.

Kevin Goetz (33:48):

What other faith-based films are you proud of? Uh, Flaming Hot had a kind of a spiritual, yeah. But it wasn't Faith-based. I would call that a faith friendly movie. Would you?

DeVon Franklin (33:57):

Faith friendly. I would say that. Absolutely.

Kevin Goetz (33:59):

And how did it come to be? Did you find Eva Longoria? Did Eva find you?

DeVon Franklin (34:04):

I found Eva, I found the story.

Kevin Goetz (34:06):

What made you go to Eva Longoria for that story.

DeVon Franklin (34:08):

Because I commit to the process. And what I mean by that, that's something that I learned from working with Will Smith. Not only as an intern and an assistant, but as a studio executive working on so many of his movies. He was very much about the process. Like, let's not let ego stand in the way of telling the best stories. So if we have a process that all ideas are welcome, the best idea wins, the best director went, like, if we have that process, the process is going to lead us to success. So with Flaming Hot, I found that story. I met with the real guy, his name is Richard Montanes. And his wife Judy Montanes. And he was telling me about his story as starting as a janitor working for Frito-Lay, and coming up with this idea to put chili powder on a Cheeto and market it to the Latino community in Southern California.

DeVon Franklin (34:48):

And that just blew up and catapulted him from being the janitor and becoming one of the top executives in the company. And when I found that idea, I sold it to Searchlight, Fox Searchlight at the time, and worked on the script and developed it. And then we got to the place where we were putting a director on. I sent it out, probably about 15 different directors, 12 of them wanted to meet. And so I committed to the process. I met with every single director, and one of the directors that wanted to come in to meet was Eva Longoria. I knew her agent very well. I didn't know Eva. And so when her agent called me, I was like, well, is she a director? And they said, well, she's directed a lot of TV. But I was like, well, has she directed a movie? And they were like, no, not yet.

DeVon Franklin (35:26):

And so I was like, well, I don't know. But because I was friends with her agent, I said, okay, I know how this goes. Took the meeting, Eva came in and I didn't know she had a master's in Chicano Studies and went through every page of the script and was telling me what I did right. And where, where I needed to improve and what was authentic and what wasn't authentic. And by the end of that meeting, I was like, wow, I had no idea that she was such a force and that she understood what this movie needed to be. So, wow. From that moment I was like, she's our director.

Kevin Goetz (35:55):

And boy did she do an outstanding job. Brilliant scores on that movie. I want to ask you about projects that you're working on now that are exciting to you, that really speak to you.

DeVon Franklin (36:05):

Yeah. I'm working on my next two movies, which I'm close to going into production. One is a film Faith-based movie for Amazon called Relationship Goals and…

Kevin Goetz (36:15):

Relationship Goals.

DeVon Franklin (36:16):

Yes. Relationship Goals. 

Kevin Goetz (36:17):

That's a terrible title.

DeVon Franklin (36:18):

<laugh>. Well, it's not, if you know what it means from a social media standpoint.

Kevin Goetz (36:22):

<laugh>. I'm sorry. That's my relationship with demo.

DeVon Franklin (36:24):

Yeah. So, so if you go on to Instagram and you do hashtag, you look up hashtag relationship goals.

Kevin Goetz (36:28):

Wait, I said this at lunch to you, sorry. And you said, oh, well wait, you need to…

DeVon Franklin (36:34):

The core that knows what it is, they're like, we know exactly what that is because that.

Kevin Goetz (36:37):

What about the core that don't?

DeVon Franklin (36:38):

That's okay. You'll find it once that core that does, makes it a success.

Kevin Goetz (36:41):

<laugh>. Okay. So tell me why it's a good title again. Tell why.

DeVon Franklin (36:44):

It’s because in the culture everybody knows what that is. It's like, oh yeah, this couple is relationship goals or Yeah, we want to be relationship goals. So it's a euphemism. 

Kevin Goetz (36:53):

Like Netflix and chill.

DeVon Franklin (36:54):

In pop culture. There you go. They know what that means. Yeah. So years ago, um,

Kevin Goetz (36:58):

Hold on. I'm looking at our engineer, Gary, did you know what that meant?

DeVon Franklin (37:02):

<laugh>? Because maybe y'all are not in the demo. <laugh> <laugh>. Touche.

Kevin Goetz (37:10):

So you were going to say.

DeVon Franklin (37:11):

So, uh, a few years ago, a pastor friend of mine, his name is Mike Todd, he pastors a church in Oklahoma. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. He had done a YouTube series called Relationship Goals that went viral. And then he wrote a book based on that YouTube series called Relationship Goals that became a New York Times bestseller was on the list for 15 weeks.

Kevin Goetz (37:28):

What the hell do I know?

DeVon Franklin (37:32):

I'm just telling you. It was in terms of relationship books. Mm-Hmm. It was the most successful relationship book, especially for the urban, faith community.

Kevin Goetz (37:40):

You mean like Chicken Soup for the Soul or something?

DeVon Franklin (37:41):

Well, like Think Like a Man, you know, Steve Harvey's book.

Kevin Goetz (37:44):

Listen, you are one of those rare breeds of producer who really understands marketing. So I have an extra added respect for you because of that. Thank you. Which means you have a true appreciation for your audience.

DeVon Franklin (37:59):

Absolutely.

Kevin Goetz (37:59):

And you know that I call myself an audience advocate. Yes. And essentially that's what I do. I put the audience's voice ahead of others when they don't have a voice. Right. And so knowing that information is very helpful for me to hear.

DeVon Franklin (38:16):

Oh, yeah. And also I think why this particular book Relationship Goals struck such a chord is because it really does talk about how to have a healthy love life and what goes into it. And Pastor Todd uses his relationship with his wife and talks about their story, and it just struck a really strong chord. So I set that up at Amazon years ago, been developing the script. Linda Mendoza's now going to direct it. She comes from the world of comedy. She's done a lot of episodic television. She did a movie years ago called Chasing Papi. But since then it's.

Kevin Goetz (38:45):

I worked on that. Yeah.

DeVon Franklin (38:45):

Yeah, yeah. She did that movie, which is a great thing.

Kevin Goetz (38:47):

Sophia Vergara was in that. 

DeVon Franklin (38:48):

Yeah, there you go. Yep. Yep. 

Kevin Goetz (38:50):

That movie was fun.

DeVon Franklin (38:51):

Yeah. A lot of fun. But since then, she's like one of the most in demand directors when it comes to comedy on TV. And so she's going to direct it and we're up for Green Line at Amazon and we'll make that in Toronto. Very, very excited about that film.

Kevin Goetz (39:04):

Great. What else is on the agenda?

DeVon Franklin (39:05):

And then I'm doing a film, Tyler Perry and I just partnered up to do…

Kevin Goetz (39:09):

Tell me about that. Yeah. For God's sake. That's fabulous.

DeVon Franklin (39:11):

Yeah. We just formed a partnership to produce Faith-based movies for Netflix. 

Kevin Goetz (39:15):

So you have a deal?

DeVon Franklin (39:15):

We have a deal, yes.

Kevin Goetz (39:16):

And what does that deal look like? Like how many movies do you have to give them a year?

DeVon Franklin (39:20):

We have to get, well, it's

Kevin Goetz (39:22):

Is that kind of how,

DeVon Franklin (39:23):

It's kind of like one a year at a minimum, a minimum of three over the four year term. And then it can be more than that. And so the first one that we're doing is called R and B. It's based upon the Bible story of the love story of Ruth and Boaz. And so we're doing an update of that love story and we're calling it R and B. So that is a movie that I love because I've never had the opportunity to do a Bible story in kind of a modern way. And I think it'll appeal to his audience and my audience and we're really excited about that. So I'll make that.

Kevin Goetz (39:51):

Is his audience different than your audience?

DeVon Franklin (39:53):

His audience is a little bit different because my audience, in terms of the films that I've done, are used to content that I would say fits more squarely in the Faith-based box. Whereas some of Tyler's content fits there, but then other content was just different segments of the,

Kevin Goetz (40:07):

Well, the Madea thing is very much older black women. Sure. Who are really committed. By the way a completely misunderstood segment of the power.

DeVon Franklin (40:18):

I know

Kevin Goetz (40:18):

Of the wallet.

DeVon Franklin (40:19):

I know.

Kevin Goetz (40:20):

I'm just saying

DeVon Franklin (40:21):

I know.

Kevin Goetz (40:22):

Know it. I know it all too well. Yeah. For so many reasons on so many films. Yeah.

DeVon Franklin (40:27):

Yeah.

Kevin Goetz (40:27):

Totally. Look at Woman King. Yeah. Look at Color Purple. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative> Driven by a majority of tickets sold to African American women, particularly over the age of 35. Yeah. Very strong. Yeah, I know. Wonderful, wonderful, wonderful. Tyler, tell us about him and how did you all hook up together? 

DeVon Franklin (40:46):

It was very organic. I've known Tyler, we've been friends for man over 15 years. And I did an animated faith-based film for Sony called The Star Years ago.

Kevin Goetz (40:55):

Oh, I worked on that. Yes.

DeVon Franklin (40:56):

Yes. It was a nativity story, but from the animals.

Kevin Goetz (40:58):

Tyler was involved. 

DeVon Franklin (40:59):

Yeah. He played a voice. He was one of the camels. Oh yeah. Oprah did a voice for me. She was one of the camels, Kelly Clarkson, Zachary Levi, Mariah Carey did the lead song. We had like an all star cast that came together for that. And so that's the only time we've ever worked together. And over the years we've talked about different things. And then last summer I was in a conversation with Scotts Stuber and Netflix, and then Tyler got wind of it and called me and was like, Hey man, let's do this together. Wow. And I was like, yeah.

Kevin Goetz (41:25):

What he has done for the city of Atlanta. I just wanna say it's unbelievable. I've never met Tyler. What? Yeah. How's that possible? I know. I'm going to ask you to introduce us. I think we would really get on like a house on fire.

DeVon Franklin (41:35):

Yes. You would. Knowing both of you. I think you, it would, you really would. Yeah.

Kevin Goetz (41:39):

The Star, I wanna just say was not successful. No. And I have a theory. Please. I love it. And I'd like to hear your theory. Yeah.

DeVon Franklin (41:46):

Yeah.

Kevin Goetz (41:47):

You wanna hear mine first? 

DeVon Franklin (41:48):

I want yours first.

Kevin Goetz (41:49):

Absolutely. Mine is that it's a primarily a Catholic story. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. And not an evangelical story. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. So as a faith-based movie that was dealing with primarily Catholic population was much, much more limited. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative> in its scope. Tell me if that's right or wrong,

DeVon Franklin (42:10):

Well, maybe. I mean, but everyone, even if you're not Catholic, you still buy into the birth of Jesus and the Nativity. It may not be as much of the lore 'cause when you're talking about Catholic, you're talking about the Virgin Mary and that, you know, being such a prominent part of Catholicism. But I think what happened, two things happen. Well actually three things happen. One, to my knowledge, there's never been a mainstream faith-based animated movie that's been released by a major studio. Yeah. The first time you're doing anything, it takes time for the audience to then say, oh, we're building our audience so that there's faith-based animation that's going out that people know and that they are expecting. So it was the first time that was done. That was the first thing. Second thing is that because it's a faith-based movie, we made the movie for a price. It was not nearly as expensive as most animated films. And then because we made it for a price, the marketing spin was also congruent with the price. When you look at animated films and what is spent to make those films successful.

Kevin Goetz (43:08):

Two years in advance of product.

DeVon Franklin (43:10):

There you go. I mean, it's tens and tens of millions of dollars, which we did not have at our disposal. And then coming out at a holiday time, Sony also had the release, I believe it was of the Jumanji sequel that came out right after us. So from a company standpoint, I think Rothman would even say this. Like The Star tested, people liked it, he loved it. We had all the goods, but the studio's like, look, we're going to give this a few weeks, but then we gotta pivot.

Kevin Goetz (43:32):

Well, I also have to tell you that it wasn't a hell of a lot of fun like kids.

DeVon Franklin (43:37):

Yes, that's true too.

Kevin Goetz (43:38):

Kids, it's It was more medicinal. Yeah. It was like, 

DeVon Franklin (43:41):

It was like a Sunday School lesson. 

Kevin Goetz (43:41):

It was like a Sunday school lesson. Yeah. And kids want to laugh. Yes. Hysterically.

DeVon Franklin (43:46):

And it played young. That's what we found out. It played very young. Exactly.

Kevin Goetz (43:48):

So it became, in some odd way, a feathered fish, didn't it?

DeVon Franklin (43:51):

There you go. Yeah, I agree with that.

Kevin Goetz (43:52):

And yet well intended. Yeah, well executed. Yeah. A lot of talent surrounding that. So it was very interesting that, I'm glad we actually brought that up, because me too, this program should not only be about praising this and doing that, but also seeing what really had great intentions in going out with a great idea, but just didn't sort of work in the marketplace. 

DeVon Franklin (44:12):

Yeah, that's right.

Kevin Goetz (44:12):

I do. Because God knows you've had so many successes. <laugh> so many successes. Yes. DeVon Franklin, I don't know what to say except thank you. You're just a terrific friend and I am very blessed to have you in my life, like, and thank you for sharing your journey and many of these stories.

DeVon Franklin (44:30):

Yeah, no, thank you for having me. Thank you for doing this. Thank you for who you are and everything you do for us. So grateful to be here. Truly an honor.

Kevin Goetz (44:38):

To our listeners, I hope you enjoyed our interview. I encourage you to follow DeVon on his social media at DeVon Franklin, and to check out his films, shows, and books. For more filmmaking and audience testing stories, I invite you to check out my book, Audienceology, at Amazon or through my website at KevinGoetz360.com. And please also follow me on my social media. Next time on Don't Kill the Messenger, I'll welcome a terrific directing, producing, and writing duo, Will Speck and Josh Gordon. Until then, I'm Kevin Goetz, and to you, our listeners, I appreciate you being part of the movie-making process. Your opinions matter.

Host: Kevin Goetz
Guest: DeVon Franklin
Producer: Kari Campano
Writers: Kevin Goetz, Darlene Hayman, and Kari Campano
Audio Engineer: Gary Forbes, DG Entertainment