Podcast: Don't Kill the Messenger with Movie Research Expert Kevin Goetz 
Guest:  Veteran Marketing Executive and Former President of The Academy of Motion Picture Arts and Sciences
Interview Transcript:

Announcer (00:02):

There's a little-known part of Hollywood that most people are not aware of, known as the audience test preview. The recently released book Audienceology reveals this for the first time. Our podcast series, Don't Kill the Messenger brings this book to life, taking a peek behind the curtain. And now join author and entertainment research expert, Kevin Goetz.

Kevin Goetz (00:24):

In 2015 and 16, Oscars So White, the hashtag that changed the industry, rewrote the narrative, critiquing Hollywood's racial disparity. After decades of neglect and exclusion, it was a turning point in entertainment and film. My guest today is one of the leading women behind the most significant inclusion initiatives implemented to date. Friends, I have with me trailblazer Cheryl Boone Isaacs, a veteran communications and marketing executive in the film industry, who has worked on more than get this 300 movies, including Close Encounters of the Third Kind, My Bodyguard, Ghost, Forrest Gump, Spider-Man 2, The Artist, Precious, and the King’s Speech to name a few. She is undoubtedly best known for her 25 years of service to The Academy of Motion Picture Arts and Sciences Board of Governors, and was the first African American to serve as its president. In 2022, she became the founding director of the Sidney Poitier New American Film School at Arizona State University. CBI, Cheryl, I am so excited to have you here today.

Cheryl Boone Isaacs (01:39):

Oh, Kevin <laugh>. I just adore you. Lovely to be here. Thank you very much. I do want to make one little point. Yes, please. Yes. As the first African-American president of The Academy, also as the first person of color in its 90 plus year history at that time.

Kevin Goetz (01:58):

And now thank God we have Janet.

Cheryl Boone Isaacs (02:00):

Yeah. And we have Janet. And I always like to say, because as you said, involved with The Academy for many, many years and in the industry and through the years, I certainly notice the landscape.

Kevin Goetz (02:12):

Mm-Hmm.

*Cheryl Boone Isaacs (02:12):

Non diversity, challenges for women, people of color to advance, few here, especially behind the camera. Talent, slightly different, but still leaving many very talented people, all peoples women and people of color. Kind of in the B suite.

Kevin Goetz (02:31):

Yeah. On the fringe.

Cheryl Boone Isaacs (02:33):

On the fringe. With an occasional this, an occasional that. So when I was elected, uh, president, it had always had been in my mind always. And everything.

Kevin Goetz (02:44):

I was just going to ask you, did you need Oscar So White shame us, or were you going to be more proactive regardless of that? Can you be candid about that?

Cheryl Boone Isaacs (02:54):

Yes. I'm trying to remember now, but there were very few minorities on the board during my first 24 years or so. So there are all these little spaces, I will call it, that one needs to ascend to in order to be eligible for membership. Now there's a reason for that because this is an organization about excellence. And while there are many people that were excellent, their road forward in their career was not enough. Therefore there was a feeling of they don't want us.

Kevin Goetz (03:31):

Mm-Hmm. It's a boys club. It's a white boys club.

Cheryl Boone Isaacs (03:33):

It's a boy’s club, women, it doesn't didn't matter. They’re scattered through, we know many women who have broken through men as well of color.

Kevin Goetz (03:43):

Your brother being Yes. We're going to to go there in a minute because one of our favorite subjects, yes. Ashley Boone. Exactly. But he was the first president of color, I believe, at a major motion picture studio at 20th Century Fox. Am I correct?

Cheryl Boone Isaacs (03:57):

Exactly. He was the very first executive in Hollywood to have the title of President of Marketing and Distribution.

Kevin Goetz (04:03):

And who was the first woman?

Cheryl Boone Isaacs (04:06):

As African American? Yeah. Cheryl. 20 years later. Now that, doesn't that tell you something?

Kevin Goetz (04:12):

Oh, it sure does. It tells me that there is an institutional issue in Hollywood. Yes. And that The Academy for good, bad, or otherwise took the brunt of that and also the responsibility of that, which I always thought was sort of an unfair responsibility. But nonetheless, what I appreciated and applauded about, my friend was saying, look, somebody's gotta take responsibility. Somebody's gotta take control. And you allowed it to be The Academy, which was really noble. If you really think about the entrenchment of those old values and morays and traditional hires. It took, you know, a lot of guts.

Cheryl Boone Isaacs (04:55):

My saying was, folks, we need to widen our lens. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. There is a lot of talent that's being left behind. There's an audience that is not being served. This is silly. And you asked about Oscar So White. I put it this way, I'm in the car, I am driving. It's a stick shift. Oscars So White pushed me into fourth gear. Mm-Hmm.

Kevin Goetz (05:20):

<affirmative>. And you were in first?

Cheryl Boone Isaacs (05:21):

Well, I would say second.

Kevin Goetz (05:24):

You were in second gear. 

Cheryl Boone Isaacs (05:25):

A second gear. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative> as we were.

Kevin Goetz (05:26):

But it was an acceleration for sure.

Cheryl Boone Isaacs (05:28):

Exactly. So it was a boost in a very helpful way to get attention.

Kevin Goetz (05:34):

Mm-Hmm.

Cheryl Boone Isaacs (05:35):

<affirmative> Outside of The Academy, therefore, yes. Putting a spotlight on something that we could really dive into.

Kevin Goetz (05:42):

Was there any resistance once that hit in the press? Was there any resistance from the board?

Cheryl Boone Isaacs (05:47):

No. I do believe, again, I've been involved for a long time. It was a bit of a refreshment. People didn't know how to do what to do, didn't really talk about it very much. However, once it was brought, it was world, certainly national news and international 'cause I have friends internationally who would reach out to me. Oh my goodness. Had no idea. Had no idea that it was such a closed group. And now we're saying, no, no, we're open. And people that I knew and some that I did not personally know, African American filmmakers who did not know that in my mind, they were part of my catalyst of discussion. 

Kevin Goetz (06:33):

Oh, interesting.

*Cheryl Boone Isaacs (06:35):

For studios in particular, again, widen the lens. You've got talent in front of you that for whatever reason, you're not noticing. You make assumptions people can only go to a certain level. And that happens generally anyway. But it's much more noticeable.

Kevin Goetz (06:52):

Really what it did in many ways is it opened up our whole industry to take a look at itself in the mirror. Exactly. And I think that is amazing. What are the board meetings like? Everyone wants to know when you go behind those doors and there's all the governor's meeting, and you and I are on the same branch of the marketing and PR branch. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. What is it like? Is it convivial? Do people get along? Is there infighting? Give us a little inside scoop, but without revealing anything. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. Mm-Hmm.

Cheryl Boone Isaacs (07:17):

<affirmative>. Well, again, I was on that board for quite a long time and it certainly did kind of change through the years. Of course different people, but different approaches. I was pretty young when I first got on the board in 1989. Scared to death. Absolutely scared to death. There were two women, I think correctly. I really should look all this up.

Kevin Goetz (07:41):

<laugh>. It was very low. I mean, we have data that absolutely shows that voices, inclusive voices. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative> of, and I don't mean simply race, I don't mean color, I mean age. I mean, oh yes. Different culture languages creates a more compelling discussion. Much better idea generation. This is a fact. I've done a lot of research around this, obviously since Oscars So White. And the truth of the matter is, why don't people just get it? Well, I think they are starting to get it. I really do believe The Academy has changed and there is a genuine shift. Yes. And that's a fantastic thing. I want to go back to early Cheryl Boone Isaacs <laugh>. I want to go back to a comment you made to me years ago, which was David Forbes and you were a young, I guess newbie.

Cheryl Boone Isaacs (08:39):

Very newbie.

Kevin Goetz (08:39):

Publicity director or coordinator, whatever you were.

Cheryl Boone Isaacs (08:44):

Not even.

Kevin Goetz (08:45):

<laugh>. And tell us the story of when you were in a meeting and you kind of asked a question.

Cheryl Boone Isaacs (08:50):

Oh yes.

Kevin Goetz (08:51):

I love that so much. And the young listeners particularly. Yes. Need to hear this.

Cheryl Boone Isaacs (08:55):

David Forbes said a few things to me that I've never.

Kevin Goetz (08:58):

He was, David was of course president of distribution. This is when you were at Ray Stark.

Cheryl Boone Isaacs (09:02):

That's right. I was at Columbia and it was one of our movies. That was the first time I actually learned about press junkets from David. And I remember asking him, I was annoyed because I felt I wasn't listened to. And he was someone I felt I could confide that sort of thing in. And he said to me, you don't know enough to ask the right question.

Kevin Goetz (09:29):

Isn't that the greatest? I have used it probably a hundred times, if not more. His quote regarding you. And you're in your early twenties or something like that. Yes. And were you offended when he said it?

Cheryl Boone Isaacs (09:42):

I was so offended. <laugh>. What? You know, because he was a friend. So I could be all like that. And I just.

Kevin Goetz (09:49):

Was it in front of people, by the way.

Cheryl Boone Isaacs (09:50):

No. Oh, no, no, no, no, no. And um, it just struck me. Oh my God. It was a big lesson.

Kevin Goetz (09:58):

And you have been very known for another quote, which was, for the first 10 years of your professional life, keep your head down.

Cheryl Boone Isaacs (10:05):

Down. Yeah.

Kevin Goetz (10:07):

Learn. Yeah. Absorb, be a sponge. Yes. And then lift your head up and Mm-Hmm. <affirmative> lean in.

Cheryl Boone Isaacs (10:14):

Exactly right. I do.

Kevin Goetz (10:15):

It's a marvelous piece of advice to give to young people, especially younger people now, who have sort of this expectation to want to like go far too soon if you will.

Cheryl Boone Isaacs (10:28):

Tomorrow.

Kevin Goetz (10:29):

Tomorrow. Exactly.

Cheryl Boone Isaacs (10:30):

I deserve it.

Kevin Goetz (10:31):

Yeah. I deserve it<laugh>. Well, I mean, I applaud the ambition. Yes. But you cannot manufacture relationship. You can't manufacture experience. It has to come organically. And I think that was also going back to The Academy, one of the issues of this, you know, the excellence comes in many different ways. Correct. We had to sort of, as an Academy, change our definition of what excellent meant. And that was a good learning experience for me to sort of understand. Oh, okay. I understand that. That makes sense to me. Because we've been looking through a prism of one way of excellence and we had to broaden it, or we would not have let any other people in because people have been, as you said, excluded for so long. Yes. I don’t know if you remember this, when you got the presidency, I was your first call. At least you told me that. And, and I, 'cause I called immediately. As soon as I read it, it was a breaking news. And I called Cheryl. Cheryl and you said, I I I, I know. I just, I just found out 'cause it broke very soon. Right.

Cheryl Boone Isaacs (11:35):

Well, what happened in, what happens is the elections happen just with the board, which I've always thought was a great idea. It's not membership wide. Right. It's the board. Because the board knows.

Kevin Goetz (11:46):

It's like choosing a Pope.

Cheryl Boone Isaacs (11:48):

Well, but it's like the.

Kevin Goetz (11:49):

And the smoke,

Cheryl Boone Isaacs (11:50):

I know almost, but I think in some ways nobody was thinking of that at the time. So when I was elected, I had been told that within the first hour, I had over a thousand requests on LinkedIn 'cause I was a consultant. And I went, oh, cut that out. Cut that out. I am not a seeker of fame, but I love this organization.

Kevin Goetz (12:13):

You really are not. And because of your publicity background, you've always been in, in the background, in the business of promoting others.

Cheryl Boone Isaacs (12:19):

Exactly right.

Kevin Goetz (12:20):

Yes. And you don't really feel particularly comfortable when the spotlight's on you. Nope. But, you did a good job. I wanted to say. Well you, you did a good job of getting up there and representing this so elegantly and gracefully and beautifully. And you looked good. I remember you wore that. You bought it in India. I believe that sari that you wore.

Cheryl Boone Isaacs (12:39):

Oh yeah. No, I bought it in Abu Dhabi, but it was Indian design.

Kevin Goetz (12:43):

Was that the green one? Yes. And I'm looking at a red dress here in one of the pictures in the studio. You knew how to wear your new fame.

Cheryl Boone Isaacs (12:53):

Well, my motto for myself, because so much is coming at you, I wanted to make sure I did not embarrass my family and the members of our branch that, you know, it was.

Kevin Goetz (13:06):

We were so proud of you. We had Sid Ganis.

Cheryl Boone Isaacs (13:09):

Yes. And Richard Kahn was publicity. 

Kevin Goetz (13:12):

Was Marvin ever?

Cheryl Boone Isaacs (13:13):

Marvin was a board member.

Kevin Goetz (13:15):

But never a president.

Cheryl Boone Isaacs (13:16):

No. It was the three of us. Wow.

Kevin Goetz (13:19):

That's, what a group.

Cheryl Boone Isaacs (13:19):

These two men were my mentors. Wait,

Kevin Goetz (13:22):

And we have to next talk about how we're going to give an Academy Award to the marketing and PR branch <laugh>. 

Cheryl Boone Isaacs (13:28):

I mean, I actually think that it's very complicated. Who gets it? The president of marketing at the studio?

Kevin Goetz (13:32):

I know. I think it's honorary. Probably honorary Oscars. You know, there's a place for people who've made an indelible mark in the business. 

Cheryl Boone Isaacs (13:39):

The year I produced the Governor's awards one was Jeffrey Katzenberg.

Kevin Goetz (13:44):

Ah mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. Gotcha. And then the humanitarian award, of course goes to someone. I nominated a few people, which will remain nameless. But I did nominate someone for an honorary Oscar this year. And also for a humanitarian, neither of them got it. But as you know, I was very, very instrumental in supporting Gena Rowlands, getting her honorary Oscar. Very much may she rest in peace. I miss her terribly. And it was you who called me 'cause it was seven years that I lobbied for Gena to get it with people like Marty Scorsese and Sandy Bullock and others that were great in wanting to help support that. And then you called me one day and said, Kevin, are you sitting? I said, what Gena's getting it? It was just after you made the call to them. Yes. And right before the press hit, because you knew how Neil and I were really behind that. And man, that was meaningful. And of course we sat with Gena at the event and it was one of the most special evenings that I've ever been to. It's a wonderful room. I loved, for example, being Sharon Stone's guest one year. And we sat right in the front and Oprah got the award for humanitarian. Oh, was that fun? And she talked about Sharon right in the front row. And it was such a familial.

Cheryl Boone Isaacs (14:53):

It was wonderful.

Kevin Goetz (14:55):

I felt, you know, Cheryl, I felt like I was part of something important. And I think that's why it's important for us to always retain and maintain the integrity of The Academy. I think Bill Kramer's doing a spectacular job, isn't he? Yes. And I know the museum's had its challenges, but they seem to be getting their stuff together. 

Cheryl Boone Isaacs (15:11):

That takes time.

Kevin Goetz (15:12):

I know. It does.

Cheryl Boone Isaacs (15:13):

Everybody wants instant. That's almost impossible. And even in Hollywood where they're instant stars, if you do your homework, you'll find out that they've been at it, so to speak, for many years.

Kevin Goetz (15:24):

I also like that they don't seem to back away from the controversy. In other words, they'll say, yeah, we screwed up. We're going to fix it. Or we're learning. This is a learning moment for us. And I think that's super important. 

Cheryl Boone Isaacs (15:35):

Well, I have a thing. I wish they would somewhere in there list all the presidents of The Academy through the years. 

Kevin Goetz (15:42):

Oh, absolutely. I don't know. Why is it really not in there?

Cheryl Boone Isaacs (15:43):

It's not there. We're not mentioned at all. Well, we will do that. And I know it's, I'm not thinking just for me, I think about Mr. Marish, I think about Bob Remi. I think about many different people that had some part of where The Academy is today, including the museum. The museum has been talked about almost the entire length of the existence of The Academy.

Kevin Goetz (16:05):

Yeah. That's a really great idea. By the way, the other one that I'm advocating for are marketing posters. One sheets.

Cheryl Boone Isaacs (16:11):

That’s what I just had a meeting about. I love it. And I want to do this celebrity photography as well as, Ooh, behind the scenes, beautiful scenes of the unit photographers 'cause I'm always bringing these things to my students. They have no idea of all of the different areas that they can succeed.

Kevin Goetz (16:30):

I hope, and I know you do this, I'm having an ask, but I'm going to say it for the listeners. If you haven't been to the Margaret Herrick Library, get your there because.

Cheryl Boone Isaacs (16:38):

Oh, it's fabulous.

Kevin Goetz (16:38):

It's spectacular. When I was writing my first book, Audienceology, that was a very good source, man. Like that had old questionnaires from Funny Face. It is a treasure.

Cheryl Boone Isaacs (16:50):

It really is a treasure.

Kevin Goetz (16:51):

And I'm so glad to hear that you are also actively giving your input because you're influential in that area. And if you notice, I said we're going to change that. Because the thing is, it's our museum. It's the entire membership.

Cheryl Boone Isaacs (17:04):

Exactly.

Kevin Goetz (17:05):

Right. And we all knocked ourselves silly to raise money and to give money and to continue to support it.

Cheryl Boone Isaacs (17:12):

I just want to say that the idea for the Governor's Awards was actually mine years ago.

Kevin Goetz (17:16):

That was brilliant. Separating it from the noise of the whole broadcast. 

Cheryl Boone Isaacs (17:21):

Well, what I kept noticing was wonderful people who were recognized for the broadcast, but I kept thinking, and one name didn't even know me, was Roger Corman. There were names in my head that I'm like, wait a minute. We are saying that we represent the best in so many different fields, what it takes to make a motion picture. And while we have celebrated many fantastic folks on the show, we should put something together that is more about the people we all know from all these branches. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. Whether it's out of costume, whether it's out of makeup, whether it's out of cinematography, whether it's humanitarian. We already had Thalberg, we already had Margaret Herrick. So why not broaden it and make it a celebration.

Kevin Goetz (18:14):

By the way, with no press.

Cheryl Boone Isaacs (18:17):

Which is still my favorite because people act differently.

Kevin Goetz (18:19):

I know.

Cheryl Boone Isaacs (18:20):

Differently.

Kevin Goetz (18:20):

You know, as you know, I just got an award this year and you were there.

Cheryl Boone Isaacs (18:24):

I was there. You were the best, of course.

Kevin Goetz (18:26):

That's what Friends are for. So that was a very special evening, obviously for me. But if you notice, there was no press invited inside the room 'cause it was originally telecast.

Cheryl Boone Isaacs (18:37):

The American Cinemateque.

Kevin Goetz (18:38):

American Cinemateque. And I think people were more likely to want to let their hair down. And it is a different thing.

Cheryl Boone Isaacs (18:44):

It's a different vibe. There's nothing wrong with any of it. I refer to the Oscars as our one night out versus the 365 days of work that goes on for the organization.

Kevin Goetz (18:55):

It's also, it's like our New Year's Eve <laugh>.

Cheryl Boone Isaacs (18:57):

And it's fun. I mean, oh, it's so, I love still going.

Kevin Goetz (19:00):

It's so fun. When we come back, I want to talk to Cheryl about what got her to the place and the woman she became. We'll be back in a moment.

Kevin Goetz (19:15):

Listeners, we are just around the corner from celebrating our 50th episode of my podcast, Don't Kill the Messenger. We have a lot in store for you, including an upcoming special interview with visionary director, Ron Howard. Make sure to subscribe so you don't miss it. And for this milestone, we would love to know who's listening out there. Please visit my website at KevinGoetz360.com for the link. And through August, everyone who connects will be entered into a drawing for our special 50th episode celebration t-shirt giveaway. As always, I'm grateful for your support of my book Audienceology, and in helping to spread the word about my podcast. Thanks, everyone. We are back and so excited to continue our conversation. Again, one of our favorite subjects is your brother. Your brother who I never got to meet. Now first of all, you and I go back, I don't even want to say how many, but it's over three decades. Yes. I met you at Paramount originally, I think, which was probably 35-ish years ago when you were working with Dawn Steel. And then we with Ned Tanen.

Cheryl Boone Isaacs (20:28):

Ned Tanen.

Kevin Goetz (20:29):

Frank Mancuso.

Cheryl Boone Isaacs (20:30):

Frank Mancuso.

Kevin Goetz (20:31):

And our dear Sherry Lansing.

Cheryl Boone Isaacs (20:33):

Sherry.

Kevin Goetz (20:33):

Who's our favorite. Talk about your brother and his influence. You're a girl from Springfield, Massachusetts.

Cheryl Boone Isaacs (20:39):

That's correct.

Kevin Goetz (20:40):

What did your parents do?

Cheryl Boone Isaacs (20:41):

Mom, stay at home, dad, postal worker.

Kevin Goetz (20:44):

So good work ethic in the family.

Cheryl Boone Isaacs (20:46):

Totally New England to the core, still very much.

Kevin Goetz (20:49):

And how many kids?

Cheryl Boone Isaacs (20:51):

Four. And I'm the baby.

Kevin Goetz (20:53):

And Ashley was the…

Cheryl Boone Isaacs (20:54):

Number two. My sister Velma.

Kevin Goetz (20:56):

I know Velma.

Cheryl Boone Isaacs (20:57):

Yes. Who's still alive? 88 and 88.

Kevin Goetz (21:02):

Oh my Lord.

Cheryl Boone Isaacs (21:03):

Just the other day.

Kevin Goetz (21:04):

Can you believe you're saying you have a sister who’s 88.

Cheryl Boone Isaacs (21:05):

No, I have no understanding. <laugh>, she talks about how she's 39 and I'm 50. So now I'm her older sister.

Kevin Goetz (21:13):

And who is the fourth?

Cheryl Boone Isaacs (21:13):

And so Richard. Richard I grew up with.

Kevin Goetz (21:17):

Is Richard still alive?

Cheryl Boone Isaacs (21:18):

Yes. And he's 80 and I'm staying with him this weekend. Where does he live? In Pasadena. Oh, is local. Okay. Yeah. So what's interesting is I teased my mother is that Vel and Ashley were like a year and a half apart. And she didn't plan this, but she was smarter than even she knew. I think she realized two babies at once too much. So the next pregnancy was when Ashley started school. Then she had Rick. And then when Rick started school, she had me. So I always used to joke with her. She said she didn't plan it, but I think because she's very smart, my mom. 

Kevin Goetz (21:53):

How did Ashley get to Hollywood?

Cheryl Boone Isaacs (21:54):

Through Robert Benjamin at United Artists in 61, 62 after graduating from Brandeis University with a degree in economics.

Kevin Goetz (22:04):

Brandeis University.

Cheryl Boone Isaacs (22:05):

At the day he graduated in 1960. <laugh>? Yes. Taught me.

Kevin Goetz (22:10):

Jewish boy a nice Jewish boy.

Cheryl Boone Isaacs (22:12):

Taught me words like meshugganah. And you know, when I was a little girl, he would teach me all sorts of, you know, things.

Kevin Goetz (22:18):

Why did everyone revere Ashley so much? I'd never, I'm just being candid. That's true. I've never heard like a negative thing about him.

Cheryl Boone Isaacs (22:24):

I don't think you will. And what amazes me…

Kevin Goetz (22:27):

Like a gentleman is what they say.

Cheryl Boone Isaacs (22:29):

Very much. Yeah. And handsome, charismatic, smart, feet on the ground. 

Kevin Goetz (22:34):

Died way too young.

Cheryl Boone Isaacs (22:34):

55 of pancreatic cancer.

Kevin Goetz (22:37):

In 94, was it?

Cheryl Boone Isaacs (22:37):

94 mm-Hmm. And it was a six month.

Kevin Goetz (22:40):

And that must been one of the most devastating things in your life.

Cheryl Boone Isaacs (22:42):

Oh my God. Because our family, I was so blessed to be born into that family.

Kevin Goetz (22:47):

Did he tell you to come out by the way?

Cheryl Boone Isaacs (22:49):

Oh no. He was adamantly against me getting into the business. 

Kevin Goetz (22:53):

Well, how you went to Whittier College which is out here. So That's right. You, how did you get to Whittier if he did? Did you follow him anyway to California?

Cheryl Boone Isaacs (23:02):

No, he came in 71. I came in 67.

Kevin Goetz (23:05):

You preceded him?

Cheryl Boone Isaacs (23:06):

Just like on the board. I preceded him. Oh. So it's always not, not everything has been me second. And I used to tease him when I was elected to the board before he was, and later people would say to me, oh, you got on the board 'cause of your brother went, oh no.

Kevin Goetz (23:20):

He was elected to the board finally though.

Cheryl Boone Isaacs (23:22):

Yes. And we were both on the board together and The Academy did not.

Kevin Goetz (23:25):

Hey, wait a minute, that's nepotism. That's a…

Cheryl Boone Isaacs (23:27):

<laugh>. They were, he was executive branch on PR, and The Academy didn't do anything publicity-wise for it. Okay. That's a whole other thing. Yeah. Right. Says a lot. And we, we, but he was the force in our family.

Kevin Goetz (23:40):

What was his superpower?

Cheryl Boone Isaacs (23:42):

Brains and lack of arrogance, I would say. Which is why I think people had such high regard for him, except for those who wished to make sure he didn't become too famous. And I do believe that. And I think that that's what caused much angst and ugly inside of his body for cancer to exist?

Kevin Goetz (24:02):

Did he appreciate research?

Cheryl Boone Isaacs (24:03):

Oh yes. And technology. Big time.

Kevin Goetz (24:06):

You're talking in the eighties?

Cheryl Boone Isaacs (24:08):

Oh yes. He had the first computers, the first this. Oh yes. He was, I think out of so many areas that I see today that he would've excelled tremendously, the biggest one is technology because growing up he always wanted to be an architect.

Kevin Goetz (24:28):

Oh, how interesting. Yeah. What did you want to be?

Cheryl Boone Isaacs (24:32):

I wanted to be a musical comedy dancer on stage.

Kevin Goetz (24:38):

Do you know I never knew that.

Cheryl Boone Isaacs (24:40):

I know. I always do dancing.

Kevin Goetz (24:41):

With your self deprecating.

Cheryl Boone Isaacs (24:41):

I always say.

Kevin Goetz (24:42):

No, you have a self-deprecating quality. I said you put others before yourself. Always. Yet you wanted to be on stage. You know, Sharon Stone was my guest. I said, Sharon, you were this sort of bookworm who didn't really like an, an little intellectual introvert who became an actress. Like how did that happen? So I say the same thing. How did you make the turn away from that to the publicity side?

Cheryl Boone Isaacs (25:05):

It's not a, well, I know I fell into that. It's not something that my parents thought was going to be the place to go for a young female. They didn't say no. I won't say that. 

Kevin Goetz (25:18):

Oh, there's the Massachusetts, I won't say that. That's the New England.

Cheryl Boone Isaacs (25:20):

Well, practical. My parents were born, my dad in 1910, my mom 1915, their vision as African Americans in America, very different. And it was always there. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. You know, be careful all the time. Makes me more reserved and very interesting. That's for sure. And it sure does. It took up quite a bit of time, protection. Not overly but there. And I had a few other jobs. I would say they were more like jobs. I went to Whittier College because at the time I wanted to work for the federal government. That's why my interest in politics usually.

Kevin Goetz (25:55):

You were a political science major, weren’t you?

Cheryl Boone Isaacs (25:56):

Absolutely. And an economics minor. 

Kevin Goetz (25:59):

How'd you fall into Hollywood?

Cheryl Boone Isaacs (26:00):

I was living in San Francisco. Right. Another little interesting fact outta college. I was a stewardess for Pan-American Airlines that.

Kevin Goetz (26:08):

I remember. Right. Wait for Pan Am.

Cheryl Boone Isaacs (26:11):

Pan Am.

Kevin Goetz (26:11):

Did you wear one of the pill box hats?

Cheryl Boone Isaacs (26:13):

Oh yes.

Kevin Goetz (26:14):

No you didn't. Yes, yes. This is, and they called you a stewardess.

Cheryl Boone Isaacs (26:17):

That's why I always say to people I was a stewardess. That's so cool. Not a flight attendant.

Kevin Goetz (26:21):

How long did you do that for?

Cheryl Boone Isaacs (26:22):

Just two years.

Kevin Goetz (26:23):

And then what happened?

Cheryl Boone Isaacs (26:24):

And well, there was a gas shortage. Remember that? In the Carter? Yes. So the choice was move to Honolulu or Houston 'cause I was in San Francisco. I love San Francisco.

Kevin Goetz (26:35):

Honolulu. So hands down <laugh>.

Cheryl Boone Isaacs (26:37):

I was worried that I would become crazy with Island fever.

Kevin Goetz (26:40):

No offense, don't write any letters if you’re confused.

Cheryl Boone Isaacs (26:41):

No island fever. But the routes were fantastic. It was Asia, now I loved love, love Asia. And then I took a couple of different jobs and thought, what am I doing? I'm in San Francisco, what am I doing? I'm 24, 25. Cheryl, you need a career. Come on. And I really toyed with this for a while, for like months, months, months. And then I went, you know what? I really want to be in the business. Packed up the plants and the cats <laugh> and drove to LA. Ashley was, I'm not going to help you.

Kevin Goetz (27:14):

Oh, he said that.

Cheryl Boone Isaacs (27:15):

Absolutely. We were very close. So I knew it wasn't anything about ego or power. That was never a thought in my.

Kevin Goetz (27:23):

So I thought of, if you could do anything else, do it. In other words, it's a hard business.

Cheryl Boone Isaacs (27:27):

It's a hard business. 

Kevin Goetz (27:28):

So you want to figure it out on your own.

Cheryl Boone Isaacs (27:29):

I guess African American female, his little sister, he was concerned. And I said, that's okay. It really is. Okay. I want to see if I can get it on my own.

Kevin Goetz (27:44):

Mm.

Cheryl Boone Isaacs (27:45):

So Bob Degillian, who worked with Ashley at Fox and then at LA Company who I absolutely adored, obviously adored me. And he gave me some names to start going for interviews. And they were small PR firms that were powerful, but small. Okay. And first of all, this is a funny thing. When I would call up and make appointments, I would constantly be asked, are you one of Pat's daughters, Pat Boone? And I would say, you said, no.

Kevin Goetz (28:18):

You light up my life. <laugh>. 

Cheryl Boone Isaacs (28:18):

I would just say, no, I'm not. And they would because of Bob, I think, take the meeting and every meeting after I would say, could you give me some names? So I could call. But it was always fun. Not really, when the door would open and I'd just watch the face for a few minutes as we had to readjust to something different on, yeah. It's kind of like my freshman year in college, when my roommate, when I opened the door, she burst out crying. It took her quite a while to calm it down to Really?

Kevin Goetz (28:50):

Oh my God. Hearing this shit is just like, whoa. Oh yes.

Cheryl Boone Isaacs (28:53):

The book will be very exciting. Wow. So anyway.

Kevin Goetz (28:57):

No, it's something that someone like myself who presents as a white male in this society never has to deal with. And it's just crazy. 

Cheryl Boone Isaacs (29:05):

Very fascinating. It's…

Kevin Goetz (29:06):

It's, you know.

Cheryl Boone Isaacs (29:07):

It is what it is. You know what I mean?

Kevin Goetz (29:08):

But do you think things have changed?

Cheryl Boone Isaacs (29:09):

Oh God, yes, however, doesn't mean that's over.

Kevin Goetz (29:14):

Oh, I, I didn't say that, but

Cheryl Boone Isaacs (29:15):

It is definitely changed.

Kevin Goetz (29:16):

Yeah, I understand that. I understand.

*Cheryl Boone Isaacs (29:17):

And I think allowed people to be able to actually express themselves when they might have been afraid in their group or their area. But you asked me a question, I didn't quite finish because I just want to say when I would go out on these interviews and I could tell they were just being polite. Um, but that's okay. That doesn't stop me, things like that. And then I went to Columbia Pictures because Bob had said to me, Degilian, oh, you know, I heard that Columbia's going to put together the biggest press junket ever in Hollywood. Maybe there's something there. So what was it for? I got a meeting, Pat Boone's daughter with Barry Lorre who was head of publicity then at Columbia Pictures and the movie was Close Encounters of the Third Kind.

Kevin Goetz (30:04):

Oh my God. Your first movie.

Cheryl Boone Isaacs (30:05):

My very first movie. But I was a little nothing in the corner. Believe me. Who cares. Exactly. And I told my students that because I was a nothing, nobody pays attention to you. So I'm a great observer.

Kevin Goetz (30:19):

Just a sponge. 

Cheryl Boone Isaacs (30:21):

I’m like watching and who and blah, blah, blah. And I've just always been that way. And that was my first position. And I have to say that through most of my career, a lot of those journalists I worked with, who would've known that I would never had associated that concept. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative> when I first started out. So all those years in publicity, when we do press junkets or whatever, I'd known them already for years. 

Kevin Goetz (30:51):

You were at Paramount after that for 13 years. Yes. You did so many, you rose from a junior person to a VP to a senior VP to an executive VP before you finally became president of marketing at New Line. That's right. Now, in all those years, what junkets, what publicity events are you most proud of? Is there one that really sticks out in your mind? Like, we did this for Forrest Gump, or we did this for…

Cheryl Boone Isaacs (31:22):

You know, I take these things kind of personally. So the one I think about, and it's come up lately because it's the fourth installment, is Beverly Hills Cop premier, the second one. Eddie. Eddie. Eddie. There was Sylvester Stallone, every cool folks in Hollywood all wanted to go to that premiere. And it was tense and it was just so much fun. And I got to dance with Jerome from The Time. Anyway. To me it was a very big deal. <laugh>, it's like one of my highlights. We also, where was it? It was on the rooftop in Hollywood. That could never happen again because of all the noise and the sound and the people living in the hills were all, you know, angry. But that was a lot of, lot of fun. Probably the biggest was the Howard Stern film that was at Madison Square Garden. Private Parts.

Cheryl Boone Isaacs (32:16):

Private parts. Yes. With, I love that movie. I know Betty Thomas directed, I know Betty Thomas. I love Betty Thomas. Betty the best. It was so much fun. And she thought, Blaze and I, when we had our first screening at the, at the lot, I, we didn't know she was behind us. And we're watching this movie and talking back at it, you know, and being, you know, like real people. Not every, all the studio people, me and Blaze and Carol Sewell were like, Uhhuh. Yeah. Go. Huh. You know, all that, that we do <laugh>. And at the end of it, she went up to talk about it and she said, all I know is those people back there, I want them in every screening I ever have. It was so funny. But I remember Arthur Cohen said to me.

Kevin Goetz (32:52):

Arthur Cohen, head of marketing.

Cheryl Boone Isaacs (32:54):

Head of marketing then, and my boss and learned a lot from him with everybody. Actually, I must say I took bits and pieces from everyone that works out, doesn't, you know, whatever. And we had the Popemobile and it was MTV special before the screening and Madison Square Garden. Oh my. That was big.

Kevin Goetz (33:13):

That's a biggie.

Cheryl Boone Isaacs (33:14):

That was a biggie.

Kevin Goetz (33:15):

I remember going to to the premier at Madison Square Garden for Godzilla. Fun and fun. I sat like almost Center Court.

Cheryl Boone Isaacs (33:22):

Was that Size Matters. 

Kevin Goetz (33:23):

Oh, that was Size Matters, right? It's Bob Levin. Yeah, Bob, call out to Bob. Bob. That's right. Call out to Bob. I'll tell, I'll tell you why you need a call out. Call out to Bob. Because that movie opened spectacularly well and had, I think the biggest drop <laugh> in it made no money because it was all about opening weekend. Which means it was all about marketing. And if you talk to Dean Devlin, he'll tell you one of his regrets is never really having tested that movie. And that was a fatal mistake that he…

Cheryl Boone Isaacs (33:47):

You always have to test. You gotta get out of the bubble. Oh, you must get outta the bubble.

Kevin Goetz (33:51):

Music guys. Sheryl's singing music. You must test. You heard her say it right here.

Cheryl Boone Isaacs (33:56):

No, you but you. I mean, it's silly. It's very easy for us to live in our bubble.

Kevin Goetz (34:01):

I have some speed round I'm going to do quickly. And I've chosen, whoa, specifically African American notables in our business. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. And I just want to get your sort of, gimme your first take on your experience with them. First is, uh, Reuben Cannon.

Cheryl Boone Isaacs (34:14):

Oh my God. I have loved Reuben Cannon for a very long time. And I did not know when I used to see his name on those Universal shows that he was African American. I saw his cool name Reuben Cannon. Really? On the front of a show, on television. What? So who knew? And we are still friends. In fact, we have a project together. I adore him.

Kevin Goetz (34:36):

What's the project?

Cheryl Boone Isaacs (34:37):

Can't tell you. Okay.

Kevin Goetz (34:39):

I'll learn afterwards folks. <laugh>, Debra Martin Chase

Cheryl Boone Isaacs (34:42):

Another great one. I met her on Princess Diaries and she's still also a good friend. And she's done so much. She needs more recognition. In my mind with Rick, I think she was the one of the first or the first to have a studio deal. Female, African American, I believe. Very smart. Knows her business. Wonderful. I think she's fabulous. She's a good friend.

Kevin Goetz (35:07):

Debra Lee.

Cheryl Boone Isaacs (35:08):

I don't know Deborah that well. We got to know each other more when I was president CEO, another, these women are so smart, highly educated, and very smart, and learn very quickly which one must Mm-Hmm. In order to navigate and maneuver through this very, very tough world called entertainment. 

Kevin Goetz (35:29):

Paris Barclay.

Cheryl Boone Isaacs (35:30):

Another great, one of great ones. Paris, I'm loving that you're doing this. Paris was president of the DGA when I was president of The Academy. And then who got elected, right? Oh, were you overlapping? We were at the same time. Oh, of course

Kevin Goetz (35:44):

He did really well.

Cheryl Boone Isaacs (35:45):

Oh yes. 

Kevin Goetz (35:47):

He really was terrific.

Cheryl Boone Isaacs (35:47):

He's fantastic.

Kevin Goetz (35:49):

Hayma Washington.

Cheryl Boone Isaacs (35:50):

That's Screech who just get it done guy. Get it done guy. Wow. And many Emmys, which he totally deserved. Not big in the spotlight. Good friend who was then made president of not writers, producers. And so there was the three of us at one time in Hollywood. Was there a big deal about it? No. 

Kevin Goetz (36:13)
Spike Lee.

Cheryl Boone Isaacs (36:17)
Spike. One of my favorite things about Spike, nevermind the fact that when I first saw years ago, She's Gotta Have It. Oh my God. It's probably my favorite to this day. And I even though Do the Right Thing, monumental.

Kevin Goetz (36:26):

Summer of Sam.

Cheryl Boone Isaacs (36:28):

So many, so many, so diverse, so fabulous. Worked with us, one of our marketing campaigns one year for the Oscars when we did What is your favorite quote from a movie? And he went out on the street. Wonderful. And one of my favorite things with Spike was when I called him to tell him that just came out the meeting. And he…

Kevin Goetz (36:51):

That was Gena Roland's year.

Cheryl Boone Isaacs (36:52):

Right. They got at the same year. I called him and I said, Spike, I just want you to know I came out of the board meeting and I want you to know that we have selected you to be a recipient of an honorary Oscars from The Academy. His first words were for real. For real. Cheryl. I'll never forget that. Ever for real. And I said, for real. It goes a real one. Tear up. Not a little one. I totally teared up. Those were my, uh, probably my favorite of, of my years as president is calling people like Maureen O'Hara, who cries Maureen O'Hara. Oh, I'm talking to her. And she's so excited. Oh, she's in tears. Oh, do you know what I mean? 

Kevin Goetz (37:32):

Do I know what you mean?

Cheryl Boone Isaacs (37:32):

These? That was so much fun through those four years of calling people. 

Kevin Goetz (37:39):

It's like, I remember Sid Ganis calling me to tell me I got in The Academy.

Cheryl Boone Isaacs (37:42):

Oh yes, of course.

Kevin Goetz (37:43):

Because of course I got rejected the first time. Which happens very often to folks. 

Cheryl Boone Isaacs (37:46):

It takes a while.

Kevin Goetz (37:46):

And well, I, I then I get into my second try and it was really about qualifications at that time. I had to have x number of years as a, I don't know, whatever it had to be.

Cheryl Boone Isaacs (37:54):

Yeah.

Kevin Goetz (37:54):

Whatever. Just a couple of more. Okay. Because this is fun. I'm sorry. Sure. Ava DuVernay.

Cheryl Boone Isaacs (37:58):

Well, she's a force and she's stunning. Don't you think? I've always thought she was stunning.

Kevin Goetz (38:02):

I think she's stunning. Yeah.

Cheryl Boone Isaacs (38:03):

She’s stunning. And she is powerful.

Kevin Goetz (38:05):

Yeah.

Cheryl Boone Isaacs (38:06):

And what has she done with it? Help others. Okay. Nothing can be better than you have this kind of power and you rain it on other people so that they can be successful.

Kevin Goetz (38:18):

Someone I haven't worked with in a while, but I always thought he was so gifted. Is Thomas Carter?

Cheryl Boone Isaacs (38:24):

Yes. Yes. Have you talked to him lately? No, I haven't talked to almost anyone.

Kevin Goetz (38:28):

I know.

Cheryl Boone Isaacs (38:29):

Probably Ruben more than anybody lately. Yeah. Things change. When, when my time was up at The Academy, I could have run again, but I just felt 24 years you could gone for other. 

Kevin Goetz (38:41):

You could, you could have? Yeah. I thought you termed out.

Cheryl Boone Isaacs (38:43):

No, I did not term out. I turned out, but I didn't term out. You didn't. Yeah. But I just thought 24 years, people come on. Yeah. That's crazy. New people. Please.

Kevin Goetz (38:53):

You teach students. I want to ask you about. They come in these students, and I've taught your class a number of times at Chapman. I have to say that they all think they're going to be the next Spike Lee or Martin Scorsese.

Cheryl Boone Isaacs (39:05):

Or Steven Spielberg. That's what I hear all the time.

Kevin Goetz (39:07):

Steven Spielberg. Yes. And so my question I guess is what do you tell them about the intersection of art versus science or art versus the audience?

Cheryl Boone Isaacs (39:20):

Not versus science. Science is part of it.

Kevin Goetz (39:23):

Can you tell me about how they come in and how they leave?

Cheryl Boone Isaacs (39:27):

Well, they're young. So they come in full of piss and vinegar, which is great. Or shy, sometimes very shy, not knowing much because of press. It's usually the most famous, the way the press is. And it's not a bad thing, it's just the way it is. You're famous, if you're an actor, you're a director. Everybody else maybe if you're interested in certain areas. But that's kind of the, the average person, the average film-goer. People who enjoy and love this medium including students and they think about the movies they've loved. And so they look up who was a director. So the biggest thing for me, through all of my years, again, I started teaching in the nineties.

Kevin Goetz (40:10):

I didn't realize that you went back that far with the. Where were you teaching then?

Cheryl Boone Isaacs (40:13):

USC Ray Stark program.

Kevin Goetz (40:15):

Oh, at the Stark Program.

Cheryl Boone Isaacs (40:15):

Yes. That was my first number of years with Art Murphy and then Larry Turman. Yes. Art was the one who forced me. I kept saying, what are you talking about? I can't teach graduate students.

Kevin Goetz (40:27):

Is he a writer?

Cheryl Boone Isaacs (40:28):

Yeah, for a Variety. A Variety reporter. Yeah. And he called me and me. I want you to do this.

Kevin Goetz (40:32):

What do you tell the student leaving film school coming into the world? I'm interested in hearing what you say to them. What and other than two things for the first 10 years, keep your head down and and learn. And the other one is, you don't know enough to ask the right questions. 

Cheryl Boone Isaacs (40:48):

That one comes early. I love that.

Kevin Goetz (40:49):

But tell me about what you say is parting words to them, or what would you say as, as we end this interview?

Cheryl Boone Isaacs (40:55):

What is important to me is that they understand that this business is a collaborative business. It takes village, takes a community.

Kevin Goetz (41:04):

The art of filmmaking is not.

*Cheryl Boone Isaacs (41:05):

It's not one person in every department that comes together to actually bring what is written words onto a screen that elicits emotions for people is magic. It's magic when you think about it. How does that happen? And it happens with a whole group of people from different disciplines who are all in support of the important thing, which is the story. If the story isn't there, you know this. Totally. Oh, a hundred percent. Then as this project progresses, if it does, and I used to say, folks, I'm from marketing, if we can't figure out what the essence is, then we're going to tell the public what it is. So you need to make it very clear. So it's a very big point at the Sydney Poitier Film School.

Kevin Goetz (42:05):

I say to students all the time, you know, yes, it's a director's vision. Yes. There's a uh.

Cheryl Boone Isaacs (42:11):

Yes, of course.

Kevin Goetz (42:11):

Yes. The producer is the glue. Exactly. Hope puts it all together. But at the end of the day, you don't have a great production designer, an art director. That's right. And star and that's right. Writer. All of those things. That's right. It's not like writing a novel. It's not writing or it's like painting an oil. That's right. The reason is, is you know, you don't like those things. They can go in your closet or in your drawer. That's right. But to get involved in a film, it's a medium that's meant to be seen by many people and it takes a village to do properly. Yes. So I love what you said. I love the fact that you salute so many artists and it doesn't surprise me that your incredibly strong advocacy and sensitivity to all those things got you to be president of our Academy, but also to the woman that I know you are. And the woman who is one of my very dear friends. And I love you, and I thank you so much for being here.

Cheryl Boone Isaacs (43:09):

Well, thank you so much. It's always a pleasure to see you always. We've known each other forever and we will forever.

Kevin Goetz (43:18):

To our listeners, I hope you enjoyed our interview. For more filmmaking and audience testing stories, I invite you to check out my book, Audienceology at Amazon or through my website at KevinGoetz360.com. You can also follow me on my social media. Next time on Don't Kill the Messenger, I'll celebrate my 50th episode with a very special guest, The Academy Award-winning filmmaker Ron Howard. Until then, I'm Kevin Goetz and to you, our listeners, I appreciate you being part of the movie-making process. Your opinions matter.

Host: Kevin Goetz
Guest: Cheryl Boone Isaacs
Producer: Kari Campano
Writers: Kevin Goetz, Darlene Hayman, and Kari Campano
Audio Engineer: Gary Forbes (DG Entertainment)