Podcast: Don't Kill the Messenger with Movie Research Expert Kevin Goetz
Guest: Legendary Actor and Director, Ron Howard

Interview Transcript:

Announcer (00:02):

There's a little-known part of Hollywood that most people are not aware of, known as the audience test preview. The recently released book Audienceology reveals this for the first time. Our podcast series, Don't Kill the Messenger, brings this book to life, taking a peek behind the curtain. And now join author and entertainment research expert, Kevin Goetz.

Kevin Goetz (00:24):

Most of you probably feel like you personally know our guest today because you grew up with him in your home as a star of the TV shows The Andy Griffith Show and Happy Days. His talent and curiosity led him behind the camera, making his directorial debut with the film Grand Theft Auto. And then moving on to such now iconic films as Parenthood, Cocoon, Backdraft, Apollo 13, and A Beautiful Mind, and successful documentaries on subjects like The Beatles, Pavarotti, and Jim Henson. And he's about to premiere his latest film, Eden. He has become one of the most honored directors, earning Oscars, Emmys, Golden Globes, and even a Grammy Award. And he's one step away from an EGOT. This episode is the 50th installment of Don't Kill the Messenger, so I'm pleased and honored to have this man as my guest today. We have worked together on more than half of his films. I respect him, I admire him, and I'm proud to call him a dear friend. Please welcome Ron Howard.

Ron Howard (01:34):

Hey, Kevin. Thank you. All that's very mutual, by the way. And who would ever kill the messenger? I mean, come on, <laugh>, especially a smiling messenger such as yourself as well, a smiling, articulate, empathetic messenger. 

Kevin Goetz (01:46):

Well, I have to start with something you've been asked probably in every interview you've done, which is this notion of being the nicest guy in Hollywood. You treat people with such respect. Now, I have watched it because I've been a speaker in your offsite retreats. I have been with you throughout the post-production process on so many movies, and I just get a sense that you genuinely care about what people have to say and want to have them feel experienced. Tell me why that is so genuine.

Ron Howard (02:18):

Well, first of all, it's that simple idea of treating people the way you'd like to be treated. You know? And I always grew up with those values. And even in the TV shows that I did, especially the Andy Griffith Show, that was the spirit of that environment around that show. It was collaborative. There was discussion, there was problem solving. Sure there was hierarchy, but it was very serious in terms of wanting a great outcome and recognizing that we were a part of a hit show that meant a lot to audiences.

Kevin Goetz (02:47):

<crosstalk>, You started at five years old.

Ron Howard (02:49):

Yeah, but around the Andy Griffith Show, from the very beginning, I was exposed to the actors collaborating and participating in this thing. And a kind of a spirit around the show led by Andy Griffith, which was, Hey, we're in it to win it. Ooh, we have audiences. We have a crowd, we have ratings. These things are important, and the way we're going to get there is through quality. And yet it can be fun and it can be playful. And it was this terrific sort of, uh, equilibrium there. And I've tried to maintain that in my working environments. And the other thing is, Kevin, is that I started directing very young. I was just to turn 23 the first day of filming.

Kevin Goetz (03:28):

In fact, you left SC. You never actually graduated SC because you worked as a director.

Ron Howard (03:34):

Well, well, I started doing Happy Days. That's initially why I left SC.

Kevin Goetz (03:38):

Oh, oh, oh.

Ron Howard (03:38):

And then I began directing. I had achieved that dream. But in those first couple of films, I was so mortified that my age was going to somehow hurt me in the process that the crew wouldn't respect me or the actors wouldn't respond or something. And as I gained a little more confidence, I found I could stop being so rigid, because initially I felt like I had to have every answer, and I had to be strong and dig in and fight for everything. But my work was okay. It was enough that I was making some progress and headway, but it wasn't as good as I wanted it to be. And slowly but surely, as I began to be a little more comfortable with collaboration, the quality of my work just jumped. I could see it. And it was also more exciting for me. And so I discovered this sort of process, which can be a headache in its own right. But what you've been very much a part of which is find out how people really respond. Find out how your collaborators really feel. Understand the ideas and trust that you can be the filter, that you can be the editor in chief who will make the decisions. They won't always be popular, but they'll be informed.

Kevin Goetz (04:49):

Informed decisions. I always tell people that, why not have the information? You don't have to act on it, but at least know it. You know, as a child actor myself. And you know that we shared that you once made a comment, I think we were working on Ransom, and I said, you know, Ron, I was a child actor as well. You made a comment about taking me on with residuals. And I'll tell you, I'm still getting checks. It's unbelievable. It's the gift that that keeps on giving.

Ron Howard (05:11):

Those checks from our childhood are fun, but more amusing than helpful.

Kevin Goetz (05:15):

Do you remember there is a bar in Studio City, it was called Residuals? No. If you went into the bar with a residual check under a dollar, they gave you a free drink. 

Ron Howard (05:24):

<laugh>. Really?

Kevin Goetz (05:24):

So I would be so drunk right now because my checks are like 76 cents. That's it. That's sometimes I go, wait a minute. The stamp itself costs more. Why is SAG AFTRA sending these out? Anyway, I got a kick outta that. But what I noticed in Andy Griffith, by the way, was this authenticity that was, I gotta be honest, I was a little envious of, because I had to come into my own. And for whatever reason, I don't know, growing up in Oklahoma or wherever you got it from, from your dad who was a director from your mom who was an actress, you somehow just connected in such a real way. There was nothing that came outta your mouth, Opie's mouth, that was inauthentic. And I gotta tell you, even in this absurd Gary Marshall world of Happy Days, you had such a likability. So I just have to say that it's just in your DNA, I think.

Ron Howard (06:14):

Well, thank you. Yeah. I landed in the right business. I don't think my personality would've necessarily led me to this business on my own.

Kevin Goetz (06:23):

Oh, that's interesting. That's interesting. Tell me about that.

Ron Howard (06:26):

My dad and mom, well, they were the trailblazers. They're the ones who left Oklahoma and Kansas with the dream of Hollywood, the dream of Broadway, the dream of careers in show business. And they were those people who were willing to risk everything.

Kevin Goetz (06:40):

If they were pursuing those dreams, what the hell were they doing in Oklahoma?

Ron Howard (06:43):

Well, they left at an early point. I mean, I was born there. My brother Clint and I wrote a book called The Boys, A Memoir of Hollywood and Family. It's sort of about our child acting careers and lives, but it's really about our family. And we tell the story in detail. But they met at University of Oklahoma and went, I happened to be born in Oklahoma, not because they lived there, but because my dad was in the Air Force at the time. And my mom simply wanted to have her baby at her home hospital. So she went home to have me. And that's why I was born there. So I never have lived in Oklahoma. I feel a great affinity for the Heartland because of my relatives and because in fact, a lot of what I grew up around are on the Andy Griffith Show was very genuinely of that rural, sort of small town sensibility. And I'm really grateful for all of that. But the end of the day, they were the ones that said, let's try this. And then along the way, as my dad was building his career as an actor and a directing theater and writing and things like that.

Kevin Goetz (07:43):

He was wonderful, by the way. Wonderful. He was great, Rance.

Ron Howard (07:46):

Thank you, Rance. He was great. And he recognized that I had an aptitude for it and guided me into it, sort of.

Kevin Goetz (07:53):

Clint did too.

Ron Howard (07:54):

Oh, Clint. Tremendous. But by then they knew to look for it, because I was already making a lot of headway in the business. But fortunately, he was a great teacher, really a great teacher. So I was learning not just how to perform, like a child actor sometimes is taught tricks that are going to work in a charming winning way. Sure. But they're not necessarily the fundamentals of really understanding a scene and really acting. And I grew up in a situation where I was actually gaining all of that.

Kevin Goetz (08:24):

And you never had formal acting, acting training.

Ron Howard (08:27):

No, no.

Kevin Goetz (08:28):

You learned on the job.

Ron Howard (08:29):

I learned on the job. And I also began to learn on the job that I wanted to be a director. Because so many of the people on The Andy Griffith Show had been directors. They'd been actors rather before they began directing. 

Kevin Goetz (08:40):

Who planted that seed initially? Or how did that germinate or develop, I should say?

Ron Howard (08:46):

Well, I had a fascination with every facet. So I was just goofing around. But it was me looking through the camera. It was me learning how to operate the mic and understand what the sound mixer was doing. I was all these things intrigued me, learning about lenses, learning about watching the lighting.

Kevin Goetz (09:04):

At what age are we talking here, Ron?

Ron Howard (09:06):

Six or so, seven. Wow. I was just intrigued by it all. I just liked it. I liked the environment. I liked what was going on. And by the time I was about 10, the actor director, Howard Morris, so famous from uh, Your Show of shows, he played a really crazy character called Ernest T. Bass, who would come into town.

Kevin Goetz (09:25):

That was the Sid Caesar thing, right?

Ron Howard (09:26):

The Sid Caesar Show.

Kevin Goetz (09:27):

Yeah.

Ron Howard (09:26):

He hed a running part on the Andy Griffith Show. Oh. Probably only did eight or 10 episodes where he played this crazy character, would come into town and cause a lot of chaos. But he also was a very sophisticated, highly intelligent artist. And Andy asked him to start directing the show. And he directed a number of shows. I think he was even nominated for an Emmy for one that he directed. But he was the one who one day said to me when I was about 10 or 11, he said, Ronnie, I see the way you look at the process. You know, you're curious about the way it all works. I have a feeling you're going to grow up to be a director. I just have a feeling.

Kevin Goetz (10:01):

Wow.

Ron Howard (10:01):

And years later, I cast him in the movie Splash. He played this nutty sort of paranormal psychologist or biologist who believed in mermaids and had mentored the Eugene Levy character at some point. So I cast him in this role. And of course, he was hilarious. And I reminded him that he had said that someday I would direct. And he had the great line, 'cause he was a hilarious guy. He came back just like this with, and this is what I get out of it. One lousy day.

Kevin Goetz (10:29):

<laugh>. Well, you know this, I'm pretty sure FOGS. Do you know what FOGS is?

Ron Howard (10:35):

I don't. No, no, I don't.

Kevin Goetz (10:37):

Friends of Gary.

Ron Howard (10:39):

Oh.

Kevin Goetz (10:39):

<laugh>. That was a budgeted item in a Gary Marshall film. It was a way to give his friends payback. The other thing about you, Ron, that I find so extraordinary, and I've witnessed it myself, is your great loyalty, great loyalty to people you've worked with, great loyalty to tradition and consistency. I think of your partner, Brian Grazer, I think of the president of your company, Michael Rosenberg. I mean, Michael and I obviously have been friends for years and years, as have Brian and I. But these two men have been very instrumental in Imagine and in your career. Can you tell me what it is about the sense of loyalty that you have and where you sort of got it from?

Ron Howard (11:23):

I will say it's not loyalty for loyalty's sake. It's not to me a principle that is, maybe it's not a friends of Gary situation where I feel like I need to have people I know and love and am compatible with around me or otherwise I won't function well. For me, it is recognizing elite talents, <laugh>, and frankly wanting to glom onto those. So you're talking about Michael Rosenberg, you're talking about Brian Grazer. These are real giants. These are big talented brains. People who I do get along with and really love, but they also are incredibly gifted.

Kevin Goetz (12:02):

You know, I gotta say something. This is what I believe is one of my superpowers, which is I surround myself with people who are better than I am, <laugh>, or who certainly fill in a deficit that I don't have. Yeah. And I think we operate very similarly on that level.

Ron Howard (12:18):

Well, it gets back to what I was saying, but when I learned to collaborate, when I learned to give over, it was not just, Hey, who's got a good idea? Let's all have fun and figure it out together. It was also recognizing what contributions from the outside could mean, and that's when my work started getting better and better. So when you talk about people like Brian or Michael or so many of the cinematographers who, like a guy like Sal Totino have worked with six or seven times, or first AD Bill Connor. I mean, I've had some really great people who I've worked with over and over again, because I'm lucky to have 'em back. I'm lucky to get them back. And I also, I do really cast for the project.

Ron Howard (13:10):

So to me, my loyalty first and foremost is to, what I hope is this intersection between my sensibilities, the project, and an audience. And that's where your work comes in so significantly. But I don't believe that I know what's going to be a hit. I am not a brilliant marketing guy that is more of a Michael Rosenberg, and Brian's very gifted in that way as well. And also the distribution companies have people who dedicate their lives to this. But the one thing I have control over is the storytelling and using those materials that I've been able to gather through the filming to try to land the plane, you know, to make sure that it reaches the audience. It's a communication. It's meant to achieve some connection with the audience. And once I've done that to the best of my ability, it works out better with some films than with others. But I can always move the needle toward that connection so that I feel that, well, if an audience member chooses to watch, there's a really high percentage chance here that they're going to enjoy it, that they're going to appreciate it. They're not going to feel like they wasted their time.

Kevin Goetz (14:08):

You talk about that in my book, Audienceology. You talk exactly about that, about how you get to choose the project. You get to work on the script, right? You get to shoot it the way you want to. And then the day of reckoning comes where the rubber hits the road. You have to turn your baby over to the audience.

Ron Howard (14:24):

Yeah. And how does it register with them? Is it registering in the ways that I want it to? Is it registering in some other way that is surprising?

Kevin Goetz (14:33):

Exactly.

Ron Howard (14:45):

Yeah. What is the reality of that? And now what can I make of that? And so that's my loyalty. So when we talk about loyalty to people, I'm probably, again, it's not for sentimentality sake.

Kevin Goetz (14:48):

Sentimental. Yeah. It's not sentimental reasons. Absolutely.

Ron Howard (14:48):

It's all on behalf of the project.

Kevin Goetz (14:50):

Well, I've certainly been very appreciative and grateful that you have requested me on every movie since we really began to know each other 'cause I wasn't even in the business in some of the early movies that you started out on. You've got about 10 years on me, but <laugh>, well, not quite, but almost. And so when I arrive at a Ron Howard screening, there's so many familiar faces, and that's what I love. It's like a family getting together again. And so I just love that. Anyway, I, I wanted to move to an area that really intrigues me. And that is because you've now achieved this body of work. 30 plus movies in a director's life, that is almost unheard of. You have to kind of go back to the old studio system to get that kind of accumulation of great work. People like to categorize and they say he is a, you were influenced by some great directors. If you had to say the one director that you think you've sort of filled the white space of or the vacuum of before you, who came before you, who would that director be, do you think?

Ron Howard (15:57):

Well, it is so different because there was a sort of a studio system, but I kind of looked to, I've always, I like directors with a lot of range who experimented and there weren't that many of them. More, they tended to be specialists. So, Billy Wilder.

Ron Howard (16:28):

His tone's a little different than mine. But man, he had range. Howard Hawks is another one who, it could be an adventure story, it could be a science fiction, it could be comedy. But it was always a story well told. And the actors always flourished. So I always tried to kind of provide those values first and foremost, over and above my enforcing some stylistic set of standards or some pattern aesthetically, I'm more interested in what the movie seems to need and want. And then of course, I just love creating an environment where actors can flourish. That just thrills me. I enjoy that.

Kevin Goetz (16:53):

I was going to say, your superpower, in my view, is probably your sense of servicing the work and also the diversity and the versatility of your instrument. Like, I don't want to get too lofty about this, but like Scorsese, you kind of know what a Scorsese movie looks like. You kind of know what a Woody Allen movie looks like, a Tarantino movie looks like. You don't necessarily know what a Steven Spielberg movie looks like, or a Ron Howard movie looks like, because it's more about this range of the underlying story, the underlying characters. Would you agree with that?

Ron Howard (17:30):

Well, I do think there's something to that. I would put Ang Lee in the mix.

Kevin Goetz (17:33):

Ang Lee is absolutely in your side of, you can't know what an Ang Lee movie is. Diverse. You just know it's quality.

Ron Howard (17:40):

There's a chance it's going to be very good.

Kevin Goetz (17:42):

Exactly. By the way, I consider Ang one of the greatest filmmakers of our generation.

Ron Howard (17:47):

He's remarkable. But when I began to realize that I was going to have a career as a director, this dream of mine was going to become a reality. Well, there were two things that I wanted. I wanted to have a production company to help support what I was doing, and also to be able to offer leverage to other filmmakers. I wanted to be a part of something, not just a lone wolf. Sure. So that led to myself on my own, having a production company, but ultimately to Imagine and Brian. And so that was fulfilled. The other thing was to not be categorized. I wanted to be a kind of a chameleon. I said, I want to be, as a director, as diverse as a Meryl Streep is. I would like people to accept that. And I think sometimes it confuses a little bit and people wondering, you know, well, how do I know I'm going to like it? Or what's he doing? I, I like it when he does the family stuff. Now he's doing something edgy. Why? You know, <laugh>. But that's the one kind of act of self-determination that I've really tried to enforce. And Brian Grazer always supported it. And it's kind of also his nature and instinct is to not get categorized in one area. And as a result, Imagine has been extremely diverse. And we've done all kinds.

Kevin Goetz (19:02):

How'd you meet Brian?

Ron Howard (19:03):

We met on the Paramount lot when I was still on Happy Days, and he was a young hustling TV movie producer, and he was a guy. He's <laugh> The Curious Mind that he's written books about is very appropriate. He likes to meet people. It's also networking when it's in our business, he does it outside the business around the world. That's his way of kind of endlessly educating himself and advancing his sense of the world and the way it works. And in a really exciting way.

Kevin Goetz (19:33):

I've never seen anyone with a more insatiable curiosity. You know, Brian comes to every lunch that I have with him, or, or meal with a pad and pen. I mean, seriously. Yeah. And he takes notes. I'm like, am I that interesting, Brian.

Ron Howard (19:47):

Well, you are. But he's always been like that. So anyway, we had this lunch and I was directing, by then, I was directing TV movies. I'd done my first Roger Corman movie.

Kevin Goetz (19:56):

Wait a minute, you worked with a great Bette Davis?

Ron Howard (20:00):

Yes, I did. Amazing Bette Davis. And there's a story there, I'll tell in a second. But I wasn't cracking the feature business. And when I met Brian, we started talking. He had some good ideas for movies, and we put our heads together. And in no time, he had really landed excellent quality meetings for us with studios. And that first idea didn't sell, but the second one did. That was Night Shift. And around that time, I left, uh, Happy Days and decided to commit myself fully to directing. And we got Night Shift off the ground. And my last television movie was this Bette Davis movie. And it was well received. And it really did help solidify Night Shift for me as a director, I think.

Kevin Goetz (20:44):

What was she like? What was, man, what was she like? 

Ron Howard (20:47):

Ah, she was pretty tough. She was pretty tough. So this was a, this was…

Kevin Goetz (20:51):

Tell me about Bette <laugh>. Rod, please. I want to hear about Betty <laugh>.

Ron Howard (20:58):

So Anson Williams was my partner on this project.

Kevin Goetz (21:01):

Potsie, this was his idea?

Ron Howard (21:01):

That's right. And we had sold it to NBC. And it was fiction.

Kevin Goetz (21:07):

You mean he was producing it with you? Is that what the…

Ron Howard (21:10):

Yes, yes. Okay. It's his idea. And we were producing partners on it, and I was going to direct it. We sold it. And it was a story that he generated. A woman named Nancy Sackett wrote it, excellent. A TV writer. And it was this inspirational story fiction, but very much based on reality, about a disabled wheelchair bound girl, 14 years old, who dreamed of flying. And that was all she cared about. And her parents were very protective, and no one thought she could do it. She lived in a small town, and Bette Davis played this aerobatic pilot and teacher flight instructor who this little girl was able to convince to allow her to take lessons. And the parents, she sort of did it around the parents and supported this girl's dream. And that was it. And ultimately, she taught her how to fly. So I had found a girl who was 14 or 15 years old, who had lost the use of her legs, was wheelchair bound, and I’d auditioned a number of young women. And I thought she was good. She hadn't done anything professionally before, but I knew she could do the part. Suzy Gilstrap was her name. And Bette Davis loved this role. And the network was willing to pay her price, which was pretty good in those days. What was it, do you remember? 250,000 for four weeks of shooting.

Kevin Goetz (22:28):

That’s good. Television movie.

Ron Howard (22:29):

It was, yeah, in 1979 or 80. And she loved the role, but she was terrified that I wanted to cast this girl who wasn't a professional opposite her. Oh. And she was really resisting this. And I had never, I hadn't met her, I just knew she was interested in the role. So finally I had to call her up, my God, and say, you've submitted a few candidates, I've met them, but I really want to go this…

Kevin Goetz (22:55):

Able-bodied actresses?

Ron Howard (23:57):

Able-bodied actresses. Yeah. Yeah. Got it. And I said, I really feel that the authenticity of this choice is going to be worth the extra care we have to take in helping her deliver a good performance. And I hope you understand. And she said, well, I don't really agree. And I said, well, I'm sorry, but I'm going to go that way. And she kept calling me, Mr. Howard on the phone.

Kevin Goetz (23:17):

<laugh> How old were you? How old were you?

Ron Howard (23:19):

I was 25.

Kevin Goetz (23:20):

<laugh>. I love that.

Ron Howard (23:21):

And I said, well, Ms. Davis, please just call me Ron. And she said, no, I will call you Mr. Howard until I decide whether I like you or not. And hung up the phone. So now I'm spinning. And I actually talked to my dad about it, and he said, look, she's an Academy Award caliber artist. All great actors know they need good direction. So get out there and do your job. Just be there and do your job.

Kevin Goetz (23:50):

The work, the work, the work. That's it.

Ron Howard (23:52):

Yeah. That's it. So the first day we had a little rehearsal day that was okay, but she just kept calling me Mr. Howard. But it was okay, <laugh>. And then our first day of filming was in Texas, in Plano, Texas. It was summer, it was hot. So we were going to do this scene where she's sort of sitting in this mockup of an airplane, and we were going to move it around, make it seem like she was doing aerobatics. And she was kind of faking it. She was doing, it wasn't quite right. I went up to give her direction, oh, by the way, because her favorite director was William Weiler. And every photograph I saw of William Weiler, who's a great, brilliant director.

Ron Howard (24:37):

But he always wore a suit and tie. So I decided in Plano, Texas, in August, I would wear a suit and tie. 

Kevin Goetz (24:38):

Oh, we have a smart, smart man.

Ron Howard (24:43):

<laugh>, but hot, because the only one I brought was corduroy. So it was pretty rough. Anyway,

Kevin Goetz (24:45):

That was pre baseball cap?

Ron Howard (24:48):

Well, no, I was wearing baseball caps even when I had hair.

Kevin Goetz (24:49):

So no, no. With the suit and tie <laugh>,

Ron Howard (24:51):

Probably, probably. It was hot and sunny out there. Anyway, I go walking up to her to give her some direction, and she acts like she's just freaked out. Like she's just startled and loud enough for the crew to hear. She says, oh, oh, you startled me, because I saw this child walking up to me, and I couldn't help but wonder what of any consequence could this child possibly have to say to me? And she does the Bette Davis laugh. So I laugh too. And I kind of give her the note, I whisper it to her, and she says, okay, okay, fine. Sure. And I'm walking back popping Tums, you know, and waiting to see what she will do. And she does the direction, and we get through that shot. And the day is okay, I don't have to give her much direction. She's Bette Davis, it's all fine.

Ron Howard (25:40):

At a certain point, late in the day, she was having trouble with this one exit, the timing wasn't right. And I suggested that she leave, I don’t know, either earlier or later, and hesitate before she got to the door and turn around and, and go or something. And she says, oh no, that won't work. I, that's, no, that's not, I, I, no, that's, that's a bad idea. And I said, well, would you just try it for me? And she said, well, certainly I'll try it because you know, I've always been the director's kid. I'll try anything. So we tried it. We got through the rehearsal, and she did the move, changed the timing, and immediately turned around and said, you're right. That works better. Okay, let's shoot it. We shot it. She did it that way. It went well. We finished out the day. When it was over. I said, well, Ms. Davis, you're wrapped great first day, thanks, I'll see you tomorrow. And she said, okay, Ron, see you tomorrow. And she patted me on the ass.

Ron Howard (26:23):

<laugh>. I'm not kidding. Oh. So I would like to say the rest of it all went very smoothly. She remained a challenging customer, but we got along great. And look, when the whole thing was over and she was finished, we'd shot out her stuff in her eight or 12 days or whatever it was. She actually privately said to me, you could be a good one. You could be another Wilder. And that were, that was her last words to me on that, on that topic.

Kevin Goetz (27:01):

I'm getting a little choked up, so I have to say, I'm going to take a break. When we come back, we'll talk more with Ron Howard. Back in a moment. Listeners, in celebration of today's show, our 50th episode of the podcast, Don't Kill the Messenger. We have a special T-shirt giveaway through the month of September. Please visit my website at KevinGoetz360.com to enter. We also want to know about you, our followers, so we hope to hear from you. As always, I'm grateful for your support of my book Audienceology and in helping to spread the word about my podcast. Thanks everyone. We're back with the great Ron Howard. Ron, I want to ask you about how you see your superpower, how you see your sort of body of work. Forget now being like a, you are Ron Howard, you are one of the, I said this to you, and this is what I said before. It might make you uncomfortable, but it is true. You are one of the only probably 10 of you marquis directors out there. That is, that the public knows who you are. And what makes Ron Howard, Ron Howard? What is that superpower?

Ron Howard (28:22):

Well, I wish I had a superpower. I really wish I did <laugh> because it's, I still find every project to be it's own kind of challenge and struggle. I always say it's, this is the medium that can't be mastered. But if you don't think that's the good news, you should probably figure out another thing to do. Because if you don't enjoy the journey or treat it like a kind of an exciting expedition, then you're probably not working as hard as you should be in service of the, of the project. But that's my mindset. Maybe that's just a rationalization for how damn hard it is. Every time I jump into something, I was think that I'm going to have it under control, and this'll be a smooth one.

Kevin Goetz (28:58):

You still get nervous before a first day of shooting?

Ron Howard (29:01):

Yes, I get nervous before shooting, but more nervous for those previews because that really is when the rubber meets the road.

Kevin Goetz (29:07):

I just want to say this to the listeners, Ron, you and I have some an odd, we call each other dear friends and we've, it's not like we go out and pal around, but we have a love for each other because I see you at your most vulnerable in some way, <laugh>. You do. And I think you have allowed me into that vulnerable guy and I think that has created a connection with us that will always have.

Ron Howard (29:32):

I think you're absolutely right, and it is a very vulnerable moment, but it's also, I both dread it and depend upon it because I've learned that, you know, it makes the films better. Look, you still make films. They still go out. Some are reviewed better than others, some are received better than others. But again, I'm usually not surprised. I usually have a good idea of the way audiences are going to respond. Sometimes there still can be a disconnect between audience reaction and critics, and that's something that, you know, is very unpredictable and also understandable. But for the most part, I have a pretty good idea about the way the film is going to play. And that means a lot to me. But I think I am, by my nature, do like to bring out the best in people around me, not necessarily by making them more comfortable, because I think people work pretty hard on my films, and I put them to it.

Ron Howard (30:28):

I lead by example. I'm out there with them, but I expect a lot. And they deliver a lot in front of and behind the camera. But I really do respect the people I'm working with and try to create an environment where they can excel. And I think that there's that. Also, I really love understanding story. I'm really interested in what stories have to say, what they can offer to an audience, what kind of performance opportunities that might give actors, where there are places to let the special effects or the music or the cinematography really shine. And I try to create the environment where the creative opportunity is maximized. And then I think I innately have a story sense which aligns with audiences.

Kevin Goetz (31:14):

You have an incredible stomach brain, and you also have this, like Brian, but it's different than Brian's curiosity. You have a curiosity that I saw in that five-year-old Opie, and that I still see in the man today. And it's humility, in fact. It's like, as you said, because I'm never going to really master this because it's almost unmasterable, right? And yet I'm learning each and every time out. Ron, if you had to have a time capsule, what would you put in it to show the body of Ron Howard's work?

Ron Howard (31:47):

Well, I would put in some of the child acting, probably a Andy Griffith episode. And it was so formative, you know? And something good from Happy Days, and maybe The Courtship of Eddie’s Father or something like that.

Kevin Goetz (31:59):

Didn't you work with John Wayne too, by the way?

Ron Howard (32:01):

I did in The Shootist. Yeah. That was a great experience.

Kevin Goetz (32:04):

So a little acting.

Ron Howard (32:05):

There was a child actor who grew up performing and evolved. And so therefore, I would, as much as <laugh>, I might wince, I would've put in a couple of the early movies. I think Apollo 13 and Parenthood are probably two of my favorites from that mid-thirties, early forties, what is really, really hitting my stride when I was feeling confident and I had support of the studio and the industry, and those are in their own way movies I'm really proud of and very personal. And then in recent years, I would put Thirteen Lives in. I'm really proud of that movie.

Kevin Goetz (32:44):

And can I just say, Ron, I think it's one of your, it might be your highest testing movie that we've ever done.

Ron Howard (32:49):

I believe it was, I think maybe the highest that MGM had ever had.

Kevin Goetz (32:53):

When you saw me come out with those numbers and looked at my face, that was incredible, right?

Ron Howard (32:57):

I couldn't believe it. It was too good to be true, but it was true. But also, it hasn't been exposed to the public yet, but I'm incredibly proud of Eden.

Kevin Goetz (33:06):

Oh, what a departure. Let me just tell the listeners, Eden is such a departure for Ron Howard. It is edgy. It's provocative. It makes you think about what would you do? And I'm not going to give any spoilers here. And I so enjoyed working on it. And you also see some wonderful work from some actors.

Ron Howard (33:29):

Oh, it's a great cast. And it's very much about people put through a gauntlet. It's inspired by real events. And it was a remarkable kind of eccentric group of people.

Kevin Goetz (33:38):

I saw that mailbox, by the way, that in Oh, did you? The Galapagos? Yeah, I did.

Ron Howard (33:43):

No, it's this story, you know, again, it's a mystery to this day. So we're forced to make some assumptions and arrive at some conclusions in order to flesh out the story. But it's a survival story that really turns into a true crime thriller. But it's all driven by sort of the psychology and the emotion of these characters…

Kevin Goetz (34:05):

Who are on a, essentially a desert island and fighting for territory, fighting for what is they believe theirs. I mean, it is so relevant.

Ron Howard (34:14):

It's kind of like a season of Survivor only not everyone survived.

Kevin Goetz (34:19):

It's like Lord of the Flies. I mean, yeah, it's so cool. But it's also like Lord of the Flies meets 10 Little Indians, Agatha Christie, you know.

Ron Howard (34:37):

It's, yes, there is a definitely a suspense thriller component to it. It's been a pleasure to work on, and I'm very proud of it, and I'm really proud of the performances. And so I can imagine that I would like to see it in the time capsule maybe. And certainly Beautiful Mind and Rush are two others.

Kevin Goetz (34:43):

Rush. That's an interesting choice. I thought you might've said Cocoon. It had such an impact on me. 

Ron Howard (34:49):

Yeah, I love Cocoon. I'm very proud of it.

Kevin Goetz (34:50):

I mean, to me, that embodied Ron Howard in what I knew as his sort of value system or something. It just was something about hope. You always have this sort of thing about hope and inspiration. And I mean, so many of your pictures are frigging good, man. I loved, I'll tell you what I…

Ron Howard (35:09):

Let’s put 'em all in.

Kevin Goetz (35:10):

I was about to ask you, gimme the five, but I decided not to be, not to be a dick about it, <laugh>. But I did want to ask you specifically a little more probing about one particular movie. And you mentioned it. And the year was 2001. The date was 9/11. And I flew into New York on 9/11 to work on the screening of A Beautiful Mind. 

Ron Howard (35:33):

Beautiful Mind.

Kevin Goetz (35:34):

Yeah. Which was obviously not happening, which we were supposed to screen, I believe, on the 11th. Did you remember this?

Ron Howard (35:41):

Yes, I remember it. I remember it.

Kevin Goetz (35:43):

And you were in Connecticut, right? At the time?

Ron Howard (35:45):

Yes. We were editing in Connecticut.

Kevin Goetz (35:47):

And I flew in on the 10th, but the flight was delayed, so we got in technically on the 11th. I then went to sleep at the Regal Royal Hotel in Midtown. And obviously the rest is history.

Ron Howard (36:00):

And my oldest daughter, Bryce, was at NYU. And another daughter, Jocelyn was in school in Midtown. And it was terrifying. And a horrible moment. Still so vivid in my memory, but of course, now, 23 years ago, shocking.

Kevin Goetz (36:13):

Isn't that unbelievable?

Ron Howard (36:15):

Shocking.

Kevin Goetz (36:16):

Shocking to say the least. You know, the movie, of course, did test several weeks later and of course went on to such great success. So switching gears here, you're now at the Academy Awards, and you hear, and the winner is Ron Howard, A Beautiful Mind. What the fuck went through your head at that moment? <laugh>? What happens? Let's set the stage a little bit better. A third of your life is an actor. Two thirds of your life is a director, and the dream was the director. Right? You now reach that moment of that ultimate award. Right?

Ron Howard (36:59):

This is a kind of wild, Kevin, because there was a number of things that went on. First it was relief because people sort of expected me to get it, but it had been expected that I would be a candidate for Apollo 13, and I wasn't nominated.

Kevin Goetz (37:14):

That's a crime. 

Ron Howard (37:15):

Well, it's one of those flukes. It happens every so often.

Kevin Goetz (37:17):

I know it does. 

Ron Howard (37:18):

So it was a huge relief. Yeah. Now, the Apollo 13 year, Mel Gibson and I were working on a movie together, and he had Braveheart and I had Apollo 13, and he won for Braveheart.

Kevin Goetz (37:32):

Which by the way, that was genius.

Ron Howard (37:33):

It was a great movie.

Kevin Goetz (37:34):

It was a great movie.

Ron Howard (37:35):

But I was directing him, and we were getting along great. We were making Ransom. So he felt badly, you know, I mean, he was thrilled to win, but recognized that it was a disappointment for me. And he talked about it, and it was fine. But a couple of days before the Awards for Beautiful Mind, I bumped into Mel and he said, oh, I'm giving the Director’s award. I'm handing you an Oscar buddy. And I said, well, how do you know? And he said, oh, I know. With a twinkle in his eye.

Kevin Goetz (38:09):

Well, he didn't know, but.

Ron Howard (38:11):

Well, he didn't know. But Mel is an outrageous guy. We've come to know.

Kevin Goetz (38:16):

I like Mel, by the way. I mean, he's, you know, had his demons and so forth, but haven't we all?

Ron Howard (38:20):

Well said, well said. And I concur. So anyway, but he's also the kind of guy who just might call out any name he chose to when, no matter what it said on the card, when he opened the envelope, it's just not beyond the realm of possibility. 

Kevin Goetz (38:34):

Oh no. Like the La La Land and Warren Beatty. And Faye Dunaway, yes.

Ron Howard (38:39):

But with total intention, you know, he might just do it because he felt like I deserved it. Well, anyway, so I, I went up, now there's another little wrinkle.

Kevin Goetz (38:48):

I'd expect it with Kanye and Beyonce, <laugh> with the Taylor Swift thing, but not with Mel. But go ahead, go.

Ron Howard (38:55):

It just was on the back of my mind. But, so now I go up the stage and here's what happens. I mean, the whole thing is a TV show, let's be honest. Look, I love the tradition of the awards. I'm thrilled to have participated over the years and to have won one and or two, actually, it's great, but it's a show. So when you're at one time or an actor, you go into a different head space. So as I was walking up toward the podium, I'm thinking, don't trip. Do you remember what you thought you wanted to say? But the camera was on a long arm, a crane arm following me as I go up, kind of swinging over, and it took a bad bump, right? Just kind of did that and, and I thought, oh, they're going to have to do another take. And for that moment, it just, I was the actor who noticed that the camera screwed up. And, and I, and then I wait a minute, instantly thought, no, no, it's live. It's not a scene. This is a real event. So I went up, I did remember my speech, more or less. I did that. And on the way out, I said to Mel, show me that fricking card. I might not have said frick <laugh>. And he showed it to me, and thank God it had my name on it. So, oh man, it was a good, it was a good moment.

Kevin Goetz (40:04):

I just love that. So you did a movie in your canon of work that is really outside of what I would have expected, and that was the Star Wars picture? Mm, yes. Tell me what went into the thinking of that.

Ron Howard (40:20):

Well, I didn't develop it. That was Phil Lord and Chris Miller. And I had even visited them on the set at an earlier point. I'm a big fan. And I visited their set and met Bradford, the DP, and talked to the cast, and everybody, just hung out for a couple of hours. Months later, I was in London, and I wanted to visit with Kathy Kennedy and Alli Shearmur, who was a producer who I had known and worked with.

Kevin Goetz (40:46):

Oh, may she rest in peace.

Ron Howard (40:47):

The late Alli Shearmur, loved her very talented woman and producer. So I met for breakfast. The vibe was kind of strange. And Larry Kasdan came, and John Kasdan came and they had said, would it be okay if they came and joined us for breakfast? And I said, sure. I just didn't understand, have any idea what was going on. John and Larry wrote Solo, and they said, look, we're going to have to make a change. Please keep this private, but would you ever consider coming in once we actually make the change? And I said, I can't imagine doing that. But then they said, well, would you read the script and just see what you think? And I, I did, man, I liked the script, and I talked to them about sort of how much work they wanted to do and so forth. I hadn't planned to shoot anything that year.

Ron Howard (41:37):

I was just open. I was developing some things, but it was one of those gaps. And I thought, well, I've always been curious about shooting something in the galaxy, but it's always a three year commitment to get involved. George had asked me about it many years before, and I just didn't want to. And so I hadn't raised my hand in the Kathy regime, nor had I been asked. But here was this situation, and they were very clear that there were going to make a change, which I thought was a shame. But the timing was such that I ultimately, upon reading the script and talking to them more and looking at some footage and understanding the nature of this talented young cast, I jumped in and just thought I would do it as a lark, almost just as an act of professionalism, and just do it and use my time that way. So yeah, you're right. I mean, it stands out. It's probably nothing I would've ever initiated. Phil and Chris were incredibly gracious to me, which I will always appreciate. I'm a huge fan. So am I. I'm sorry they went through that drama. Yeah, they're incredibly talented.

Kevin Goetz (42:43):

Oh, they're great guys. That Spiderverse stuff is just sick. Oh, my. Brilliant. And the Lego…

Ron Howard (42:49):

And there's more coming from them, I can guarantee you. Oh, yeah. All that said, I came in under very unique circumstances. And you know, I had two weeks of prep, to go in and finish the movie and reshoot some things at the studio, and producers wanted reshot. And it wound up being a very positive creative experience for me. I had a lot of fun doing it. I enjoyed it even a little more than I thought I would in terms of, it was a reminder. I've been doing so much serious work that it was just a reminder that it's kind of fun to play in that sandbox. 

Kevin Goetz (43:22):

That's wonderful. And that's a great answer. My last sort of probing question here is about the audience. Obviously, that's our relationship, and it's also stuff you've spoken about in Audienceology, but also have spoken about in other conversations we've had. You have a tremendous respect for the audience, and I respect you so much for that. I'd like you to talk in closing today about your relationship with art versus the audience. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>, because that's a question that a lot of young filmmakers ask and not so young ask. And you've always had this beautiful dance and respect for the audience, and I've always been an audience advocate.

Ron Howard (44:07):

Well, yeah, it is a dance, and it must be undertaken with real thought and consciousness. Because the audience, of course, they know what they like and they know what they don't like. They don't necessarily know why. They might, in one of those focus groups, they might articulate it. In one of those cards, they might give you the key that allows you to understand what the disconnect is. But it begins with art. It begins with a desire to communicate something. Whatever the tone, whether it's silliness and fun, look, everything carries a theme with it and a set of ideas, or won't even register with an audience. Every story has a set of principles, values, narrative values. So whatever the tone you've chosen, whatever the genre, it's still art. It's a communication, and it stands for something. And as the filmmaker, you're the keeper of the story.

Ron Howard (45:06):

You're the protector of that. And when you start sharing it with an audience, the challenge is to understand what the questions are and what the answers could be and how they could help you. The question is, what do you think? Look, it's a little bit like if you tell a joke at a party and you don't tell it very well, it doesn't get much of a laugh, but you know there's something funny there. Maybe the next time you tell it better and it does get a laugh. So the spirit of the joke, the idea of the joke remains the same, but the delivery improved. So this is really about understanding how the ideas are being delivered and what it's adding up to. And when you get the answers back, it's sometimes it's pretty heartbreaking to you as a creative person. But if you understand the information, the feedback that you're getting, you then get to make a value judgment. You get to make a decision. Now, if you don't have final cut, it's tougher.

Kevin Goetz (46:07):

Do you have final cut, Ron?

Ron Howard (46:08):

I do. Yeah. There are time parameters. If it exceeds a certain length, then I can lose that control, but I still have it.

Kevin Goetz (46:15):

Final cut is really in the hands of the audience.

Ron Howard (46:18):

Well, it kind of is. And getting back to what we were talking about, when you get the information to the answer, how do you like this? You have to go further. How are you receiving it? What are you, are you getting out of it that you like or don't like? And now, when you get that information, it's confronting because there may be things that you really like, moments that you really like, but they're actually undermining the mission. And the greater mission is suddenly you realize is in jeopardy because of some nuance, some detail, something that presents some other idea that you like. But there's a collision going on here, so it's important to understand that. So you can decide whether to sand away or scalpel away that problem or fix it some other way. And I think it behooves us to at least understand it. Because you sometimes you may say, no, I'm going to leave that disruption. I'm going to leave that disconnect because it has other values that I don't want to let go of. But, but then it's at least gets back to that phrase of yours. It's an informed decision. And it's still art.

Kevin Goetz (47:31):

It's still art.

Ron Howard (47:33):

The great playwrights take their plays out of town and they listen to the way an audience responds, of course. And of course they rewrite, they go back and they refine. So this is a mass medium. This is about the way a story communicates to a large number of people. Some millions and millions, some thousands and thousands. But you're not making it for two people.

Kevin Goetz (47:56):

Chris Meledandri calls it the commercial arts.

Ron Howard (47:59):

Well, it is. That's the way I view it. Yeah. And I think it's all creativity. And some of it feels frustrating because when you come to recognize that there are values that you like that are somehow impeding the audience's greater ability to connect with the story, and then you have to be careful that you don't start sanding things away so much that everything becomes bland and pedestrian.

Kevin Goetz (48:25):

You've never, ever done that, nor would you. Well, I think I don't fall for that <laugh>, nor would you ever do that.

Ron Howard (48:29):

But there's always a risk in that.

Kevin Goetz (48:31):

I think that's the fear that you think once you give the studio an inch, say, they may take the yard or the, you know what I mean? And so I think that's the danger. But any filmmaker worth there salt is not going to allow that to happen. Ron Howard, what can I say? You are an American treasure. You are an authentic, solid human. You have had a career that is simply unbelievable. And I, for one, cannot wait to see what's in store for the third act of this incredible journey. I love you. I really do.

Ron Howard (49:05):

Thank you, Kevin. I really appreciate it. Great to be on your 50th episode. Outstanding.

Kevin Goetz (49:09):

A blessing. Thank you so much.

Ron Howard (49:11):

Take care.

Kevin Goetz (49:13):

To our listeners, I hope you enjoyed our interview today. Please follow Ron on his social media. I know he's very active on X at TheRealRonHoward. For more filmmaking and audience testing stories, I invite you to check out my book Audienceology at Amazon or through my website at KevinGoetz360.com. And also, please follow me on my social media. Next time on Don't Kill the Messenger I'll welcome the Hollywood power couple, former super agents and now super producers, Rick Nicita and Paula Wagner. Until then, I'm Kevin Goetz, and to you, our listeners, I appreciate you being part of the movie-making process. Your opinions matter.

Host: Kevin Goetz

Guest: Ron Howard

Producer: Kari Campano

Writers: Kevin Goetz, Darlene Hayman, Dax Ross, Nick Nunez, and Kari Campano

Audio Engineer: Gary Forbes (DG Entertainment)