Podcast: Don't Kill the Messenger with Movie Research Expert Kevin Goetz
Guests: Hollywood Power Couple, Paula Wagner and Rick Nicita
Interview Transcript

Announcer (00:02):

There's a little known part of Hollywood that most people are not aware of, known as the audience. Test preview the book Audience Ology reveals this for the first time, our podcast series, don't Kill The Messenger brings this book to life. Taking a peek behind the curtain. And now join author and entertainment research expert Kevin Goetz.

Kevin Goetz (00:23):

Behind the scenes, talent agents help weave the threads of the film industry. They don't just discover stars, but they're architects of careers, and the great ones possess a blend of intuition, tenacity, and conviction. Today we dive into the lives of two legendary pros, who have not only excelled as talent agents, but also who have left an indelible mark as producers, consultants, and leaders. I have with me today the Dynamic Hollywood Power couple, Paula Wagner and Rick Nicita. Rick is recognized for his strategic acumen and is the former co-chairman and managing partner of CAA. After her years at CAA, Paula worked as a studio executive, reviving United Artists, and is known for her longstanding collaboration with Tom Cruise, co-founding Cruise/Wagner Productions responsible for such hits as Mission Impossible, the entire Mission Impossible franchise, actually. She's recently added Broadway producer to her many titles. Paula, Rick. Hey, <laugh>.

Paula Wagner (01:34):

I'm so glad.

Rick Nicita (01:35):

Kevin, where do we go after that introduction?

Paula Wagner (01:37):

Oh my!

Kevin Goetz (01:38):

Nice introduction, huh? 

Paula Wagner (01:40):

Very. That was fabulous. How long we have known you?

Kevin Goetz (01:43):

I know. It has to be at least three decades. 

Rick Nicita (01:47):

Oh, yeah. Yeah. Remember the first time at a screening I went, who is that guy? How does he do that?

Kevin Goetz (01:53):

There's so much to talk about. And the danger, of course, is, and I'll reveal to our listeners, we're friends. And so when you're friends, you tend to know too much about each other. So I want to not take that for granted. I want to start with some of our commonalities, and I'm Going to start with Paula, because we have a great commonality. We were both actors. Mm. You started going to Carnegie Mellon. You shared with me something at lunch the other day, which was that you and Judith Light.

Paula Wagner (02:21):

So yes, my parents said, if you're going to be an actress, I started acting at 13. If you're Going to be an actress, then if you're Going to do it, do it the best. Go to the best drama school in the country, which it was. And still is.

Kevin Goetz (02:37):

Your parents said that?

Paula Wagner (02:38):

Yeah. 

Kevin Goetz (02:39):

Wow.

Paula Wagner (02:40):

My mother drove me to the Youngstown Playhouse every night when I was in a play in Ohio, and one of the lead actresses, Elizabeth Hartman, had gone to Carnegie Mellon, or was Carnegie Institute of Technology. Then I left after two years at Carnegie Mellon and went to the neighborhood playhouse, studied with Sanford Meisner himself, Bill Esper, all these great people. Then went back and graduated from Carnegie Mellon, one summer USO show. We were picked of all the shows in various colleges. We did Guys and Dolls. Judith Light and I were double cast as Adelaide.

Kevin Goetz (03:19):

A Tyson could develop a…

Rick Nicita (03:21):

She sings it to me on, on request lots. I go do Adelaide.

Kevin Goetz (03:25):

Is that what wooed you into your relationship?

Rick Nicita (03:28):

I, I was head over heels about it, but it wasn't that. I only learned about that no later. 

Kevin Goetz (03:33):

Now, where did you come from originally?

Rick Nicita (03:35):

I grew up in Larchmont, New York. Suburban New York.

Kevin Goetz (03:38):

Siblings?

Rick Nicita (03:39):

One younger brother. I had no connection to show business. I was Going to be a lawyer. And finally got to law school, graduated from Wesleyan, went to Fordham Law in the fall of 67, and realized that I hated law school and did not want to be a lawyer.

Kevin Goetz (03:56):

How many years were you there?

Rick Nicita (03:56):

Months. Four or five months.

Kevin Goetz (03:58):

That's smart that you realized that realized early on.

Rick Nicita (04:00):

I just realized. Yeah. And I, I try to tell young people that, that you have to realize, give everything a shot if you have a desire to do something.

Kevin Goetz (04:09):

I think you pass that on to your boys.

Rick Nicita (04:11):

Uh, hopefully. But what I did was I thought to myself, okay, you've dropped outta law school. What is it you want to do? What do you want to be? And I decided I didn't necessarily want to do what was easiest, what was closest, what my parents wanted me to do, God love them, and or what society did I want to be in The movie business. Why? 'cause I always loved movies. I went to movies. If no one would go with me, I'd go by myself. I remember walking through the snow to the Larchmont Theater.

Kevin Goetz (04:41):

I was Going to ask you what your theater was.

Rick Nicita (04:42):

Larchmont Theater.

Kevin Goetz (04:44):

Was it a Lowes <laugh>? That's what we said in Brooklyn. The Lowes. Lowes. We never called the Lowes. It was the Lowes.

Rick Nicita (04:49):

I, I remember just growing up watching movies like Giant and The 10 Commandments.

Kevin Goetz (04:54):

Oh, so you just stole the question out of my mouth, which is, gimme a movie that really had an influence on you.

Rick Nicita (04:59):

Oh, but the movie that had an influence, please on me, was King Kong. Why? Because.

Kevin Goetz (05:05):

I mean, you talking about with Faye Ray?

Rick Nicita (05:06):

Absolutely. Why? Because in New York, in those days, there were seven channels. 2, 4, 5, 7, 9, 11, and 13. And they didn't have much programming. So they had something called Million Dollar Movie. Oh, I remember it. Million Dollar Movie, which would play the same movie two or three times a day, the same movie. Each week they'd pick a movie. So if you were just sitting home, you'd see a movie 15 times, 20 times. And I would watch King Kong 20 times. So I know every line of it. And I went, I want to do what they're doing. Wow. I want to be part of that.

Kevin Goetz (05:39):

And when you look at those effects, it's so comical. Fabulous.

Rick Nicita (05:43):

But they're fabulous. They're don't even, she's, she knows that I keep saying, can we watch King Kong? Can we watch.

Paula Wagner (05:49):

All the time.

Rick Nicita (05:50):

I called a friend who was at the William Morris Agency, whatever that was, and I said, I want to be in the movie business. He goes, but you're in law school. I go, no. I dropped out. And he said, the only thing you can do is be in the mail room for $40 a week, full time. This is in 68. And I said, I'll do it. I came, had an interview. I, so basically, I walked into the agency business in 1968 and walked out of the agency business 40 years later in 2008. Wow. So I enjoyed it.

Kevin Goetz (06:21):

Now, Paula, so how does Paula Wagner go from Carnegie Mellon Neighborhood Playhouse, did their production in Germany. You come back to New York and you get a part in a Broadway show.

Paula Wagner (06:35):

I actually came out to LA, which was a mistake actually.

Kevin Goetz (06:38):

Oh, before you went back to New York.

Paula Wagner (06:40):

In the early seventies, late sixties. I did a couple of parts in movies then, you know, little parts in films. Got an agent, did the whole thing. I did a lot of other jobs. I ran a modeling school. John Robert Powers.

Kevin Goetz (06:55):

The Powers Models.

Paula Wagner (06:56):

Powers. I was the makeover person.

Kevin Goetz (06:59):

But that was my, my cousin was a Powers model. She's 101 and a half right now. Oh God. My father's first cousin. And she's stunning. Still has that same kind of.

Paula Wagner (07:08):

They were, but this was the charm school. <laugh>.

Kevin Goetz (07:10):

Oh my God.

Paula Wagner (07:11):

But I got, I would, I listen, it was a good gig. I got $5 an hour to do that. No. Good gig. It was pretty good. So went back to New York and actually, and then ended up in Lenny, the Lenny Bruce story. And I played, I was a replacement at that point. My name was Paula Kaufman from Ohio.

Kevin Goetz (07:31):

With two sisters, by the way.

Paula Wagner (07:33):

With two sisters. Yeah. And, but I have to tell you, so I'm an actress on Broadway, and everybody wanted that agent who's Going to really make your career go, you're Going to be a movie star and do all of this. There was a young agent at William Morris, and I knew a bunch of his clients.

Kevin Goetz (07:52):

Who was he?

Paula Wagner (07:53):

His name was Rick Nicita.

Kevin Goetz (07:55):

Rick Rick. And how do you spell? Oh lord.

Paula Wagner (07:58):

That was, and, and he was the one, oh, you want, you gotta have Rick Nicita. He was this young hotshot agent, and I acted with some of his clients. I knew who he was. He was the guy that you wanted. But I had another agent. He didn't sign me.

Rick Nicita (08:19):

I married her, but I didn't.

Kevin Goetz (08:20):

But I didn't sign her. No.

Paula Wagner (08:22):

But anyway.

Kevin Goetz (08:23):

That was much better, much better part of the deal.

Paula Wagner (08:25):

So when you audition for a Broadway show, then you'd go back, you got your script reading it. You go backstage, you wait, all the actresses show up at two o'clock. So there's 10 of us sitting around.

Kevin Goetz (08:39):

The worst though, you know exactly your competition.

Paula Wagner (08:41):

And I'm sitting in this chair, and it's winter, and I kind of, you know, have my one leg over the side of the chair, and I'm reading the script, and I look around and here's this guy, black full hair, big black beard <laugh>. And he has a sheep skin coat. This is 1972, 73, maybe, something like that. Hands in the pocket, little bit of swagger. And I go, oh my God, that is Rick Nicita. Ooh. And I'm sitting there and I kind of turn around to smile like, Hey Rick. And I kind of go, hello. And he goes, hey. You know, does one of those kind of points at you.

Kevin Goetz (09:24):

Yeah.

Paula Wagner (09:24):

Hey, Diane, how you doing? <laugh>.

Rick Nicita (09:29):

She insists, this is true. I don't remember. Okay.

Kevin Goetz (09:32):

If she says it's true. It's true. You know what, if a kid, if your kid says, dad, you were not at my hockey game. Yeah. Then, and then you say, yes, I was. You were not at that hockey game 'cause the kids remember. So she's telling you the truth. Go ahead.

Paula Wagner (09:44):

So that was, that was that. But anyway, that was just a, a kind of moment that sticks out over.

Rick Nicita (09:49):

So we knew we knew each other, but I mean, we, we casually knew each other. And then after you can tell him about when you became an agent.

Kevin Goetz (09:58):

Well, that's where I was going. But I have to say one thing. I saw a picture the other day of Paula, now Paula is beautiful today. You're really are. And you've always been. I always thought, thank you. You were strikingly beautiful. I saw a picture that was arresting <laugh>. I mean, it was, you were so hot. I mean, beautiful. Like, just beautiful bone structure.

Rick Nicita (10:18):

Lush and lovely.

Kevin Goetz (10:19):

Let me ask you this. So how does a woman who is starting in the theater trained move to Agenting? What happens?

Paula Wagner (10:28):

A lot happens. I was doing Midsummer Night's Dream at the Yale Repertory Theater. I was a member of the Yale Rep. And did you go to Yale? No, but I was a member of the Yale rep as a professional actress.

Kevin Goetz (10:43):

Yeah. They brought an equity actress from New York. Yeah. That was very prestigious then. Almost like Lincoln Center. Exactly. Had John Houseman's company.

Paula Wagner (10:51):

Who was Robert Brustein, Alvin Epstein. 

Kevin Goetz (10:55):

Who were some of the other actors then? Do you remember?

Paula Wagner (10:57):

Victor Garber was in it with me. Talented. Meryl Streep had just done the part. 

Kevin Goetz (11:03):

Not talented. Keep going. <laugh>

Paula Wagner (11:04):

<laugh>. She was the star of Yale. Oh my God. What's, but she wasn't there. She had gone to the public theater and basically when she left, I played the role that she had originated, Helena in Midsummer Night's Dream. And then I did Don Juan Mollier’s Don Juan, whatever. But I went from being a Shakespearean actress at the Yale Repertory Theater to an agent in Hollywood. My agent offered me a job as an agent and took

Kevin Goetz (11:31):

Who was your agent? Agent? Susan Smith.

Paula Wagner (11:32):

Susan Smith. There. That's it. In a nutshell.

Kevin Goetz (11:35):

How would, why would she offer you a job?

Paula Wagner (11:37):

Well, that's a whole other story. But I would go through all the contracts. I had taken an LSAT class and took the LSAT. Wow. So they keep going to a, it was a long, I,

Rick Nicita (11:50):

She knew how sharp you were.

Kevin Goetz (11:51):

Did you feel a sense, like I did when I gave it up for producing and then ultimately marketing. Did you feel a loss? Like you were giving something up?

Paula Wagner (12:01):

I didn't give it up. I'm still an actress.

Rick Nicita (12:02):

I just, this hasn't worked in a while.

Kevin Goetz (12:04):

God, you and I, I swear to, I think we're twins. No, I mean, like Paula, I swear I always say that. And it's true. Once you are and it has served you so well.

Paula Wagner (12:13):

I never get, honestly, never. I just found something that I, I thought was so cool and I loved.

Kevin Goetz (12:18):

But you love actors, Rick. You love other actors. You do.

Paula Wagner (12:22):

I love actors. It's all about actors. My whole career was about having been.

Kevin Goetz (12:25):

Who was your first big sign when you started?

Paula Wagner (12:28):

When I was recruited to a new company called CAA. Yes. Well, I had, I represented Jane Curtin and a number of TV directors. But the first young actor I co-signed was Sean Penn. And then the first actor I signed was an unknown kid named Tom Cruise.

Rick Nicita (12:49):

In what year? That would've been 82?

Kevin Goetz (12:51):

81. I've heard of his name. Tom and I grew up, we're a week apart in age. We grew up only a few towns apart New Jersey. Huh. And of course, he was doing Guys and Dolls in the school play, and was brought into New York to my girlfriend, one of my best girlfriends, Lorraine Golly at the time. She's now Lorraine Ruffo. She brought Tom in to meet her manager, 'cause she was a pro in high school. And Toby Gibson was her name. And Toby signed him, got his first role. And then Toby's nephew stole Tom from her, his own aunt. And then he got, I guess a second movie maybe before Paula came in. Swooped in, swooped in, and got what became one of the most successful partnerships in Hollywood history. We're Going to get back to that, but I want to get back to Rick for a second.

Paula Wagner (13:46):

But by the way, I did want to say one of the reasons when CAA Fred Spector called me up, recruited me to this kind of little, when it was hot up and coming agency called CAA, I knew Rick Nicita had an incredible reputation as a major classy, intelligent.

Kevin Goetz (14:08):

So he was one of the main reasons that you…

Paula Wagner (14:10):

Absolutely. As a professional, I had great respect for him. He represented the best actors. He understood the theater and the theater actors, and how to bring them on into films. So that was one of the reasons that, uh, motivated me to go.

Rick Nicita (14:28):

Yeah. But when you say what, how Susan knew, because Paula was obviously a potential agent star, and she, she came out of the gate really, really fast. You became one of the most prominent agents at CAA and seemed in about 20 minutes.

Kevin Goetz (14:45):

Rick, I cannot believe the roster of people that you've either signed and or worked with. Who, can I just do a little fun thing with you, which is a little speed round here. If I name a name, just gimme a word to describe a few of these people. I'll throw the names out. I'm Going to just toss a couple out here. So when I say a person, just sort of give me what pops into your head. Al Pacino.

Rick Nicita (15:10):

Intense.

Kevin Goetz (15:12):

Francis Ford Coppola.

Rick Nicita (15:15):

Spiritual.

Kevin Goetz (15:16):

Wow. Sally Field.

Rick Nicita (15:19):

Determined.

Kevin Goetz (15:20):

Bette Midler.

Rick Nicita (15:21):

Funny.

Kevin Goetz (15:22):

Rob Reiner.

Rick Nicita (15:24):

Political.

Kevin Goetz (15:26):

Mm. And yeah, he worked very closely with Norman Lear, didn't he? In Oh, yeah. American Way and

Rick Nicita (15:31):

All that stuff.

Kevin Goetz (15:32):

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I love that about him, by the way. Nicole Kidman.

Rick Nicita (15:36):

Actress, capital a.

Kevin Goetz (15:40):

Kurt Russell.

Rick Nicita (15:42):

Spontaneous.

Kevin Goetz (15:43):

Kevin Costner.

Rick Nicita (15:44):

Resolute.

Kevin Goetz (15:45):

Wow. Well, we can go on and on, folks. Rick, did you have a protege that was an agent that you saw great potential in?

Rick Nicita (15:53):

Well, I don't know if I'd single anybody out. I like to think that I tried to be helpful to all of them and bring kind of a different style to agenting. 

Kevin Goetz (16:04):

Well, not to blow smoke your ass, but your wife has used the word class. Ah. And I always remember the young pisher growing up with Joe Ferrell and Katherine poorer at AG, you know, always sort of a classy guy. Always so kind. I don't think I've heard a bad thing about you.

Rick Nicita (16:23):

That's nice to hear.

Kevin Goetz (16:24):

Have their opinions about a deal that…

Rick Nicita (16:27):

I would…

Kevin Goetz (16:28):

The way they wanted or something.

Rick Nicita (16:28):

I would expect so. I would almost hope so.

Kevin Goetz (16:30):

But in fact, you have just been to me the epitome of don't confuse nice with softness.

Rick Nicita (16:37):

Yeah. I look what I tried to do was, first off, make every negotiation collegial. Try to get everybody to put their fists down. Realize that if we can make a deal, then everyone's Going to benefit. And if we don't make the deal, no one benefits.

Kevin Goetz (16:53):

Well, that's great advice by the way. Paula said to me at lunch. The other which I thought was great, was some version of, you have to know when you're Going to say no. Yeah. And if you know when you're Going to say no. Yeah. You better mean it. And Paula, I said to you, how many deals when you made the decision to say no, we're Going to walk, did you lose? And your answer was?

Paula Wagner (17:16):

None.

Kevin Goetz (17:17):

None. Incredible. Yeah. Remember, you gotta know listeners that you are wanting or needing or have to walk away if you're playing Mm-Hmm. You know it's Going to weaken the position. 

Paula Wagner (17:30):

No, you can't. Yeah. When you say No, we don't accept that You mean it and your client. And I would never do that without checking with my client. Absolutely. Yeah. I would never just throw that.

Rick Nicita (17:41):

Well, look, there, there are three things I think an agent does, but I think negotiating the deal is the least of the three least, least important. Please tell us, tell us. Least important because lawyers can do it. It becomes a ritualistic thing. It's not rocket science. Second most important thing is getting the right role offered to them. You just don't sit there and wait on the phone. You go out. And so I want us.

Kevin Goetz (18:03):

Let's stop for a second and say this taste, taste and taste, which is, you both have it. And I know it only because I've worked with you after in different iterations. And your sense of material, your sense of what makes story work, your appreciation of research, quite frankly, and the respect for the audience has always been very impressive to me in what I do. Appreciate it. Well, it's absolutely true. What makes a great agent? Like what's the chemistry, the alchemy of the best of the best?

Rick Nicita (18:32):

Well, I think they have to understand the needs of the client without necessarily needing the client to tell them what they need. They have to know what's best for the client. Even if the client doesn't even realize it. I've, I was in charge of their careers. I wasn't in charge of their bank book. That's their business manager. I was not their financial advisor. And in this business, what you don't do is you don't follow the money. If you're successful and make the right choices, money will find you.

Kevin Goetz (19:07):

So if you have the actor, let's say, are in their movie star years, we'll call them. Yep. And you know, we who are producing almost don't want to go to certain actors 'cause you realize they're never going to do that. Mm-Hmm. Nor would I if I were, I mean, that was, that's a smart, more evolved way of thinking. Why would I go and waste my time thinking that they're going to take this small role in this? At the same time, there are times when the actor, you know, needs a break.

Rick Nicita (19:31):

Absolutely. That's the agents or needs to direct. That's the, that's the difference, the nature. 

Kevin Goetz (19:35):

That’s the manager though, isn't it? That does that. But the great agents…

Rick Nicita (19:38):

Ah, now you've and a whole other thing.

Paula Wagner (19:40):

In my day in our day as agents. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>, if you needed, I always thought, if you need a manager, then I'm not doing my job.

Kevin Goetz (19:50):

Oh, I love this so much.

Paula Wagner (19:51):

Oh yeah. But I will say we came at it very differently, Rick and I, but we ended up in the same place. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. And he really Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>, I, I have to say a mentor because his style was so appropriate and so infectious. But for me, I came at it from a different place. I became the agent I always wanted to have. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. And I saw myself as an advocate. And so very similar in a way, but I just saw it from a different perspective. I walked in those shoes, I auditioned. I was a lousy auditioner.

Kevin Goetz (20:26):

I tell every young actor, get in a casting session. See how much a) you don't have control over what's happening. Exactly. I mean, it may be as simple as we already cast, I don't know, take Sissy Spacek in the role, and she's a redhead or blonde. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. And she, you would never be her child. So therefore you're not getting that role. I mean, yet you did the best audition. You know. So actors need to understand how those conversations go. I also think they need to step into the room to see how in fact, they can take the room and own the room. And that could be in a bunch of ways. It doesn't have to be arrogance. It doesn't. It is, there's something about showing who you are and showing who you are, where I want to work with you. I want to you, I need your energy in my picture, or whatever it is.

Rick Nicita (21:16):

Well, I would actually, not only that, but I'd flip it. Clients would call me after an audition and they'd say, well, I think they like me. I'd say, I don't want to hear that. I'd say, I'll find that out from them. I don't need you to tell me. They'll tell me, what did you think of them? Do you want to work with them? Did they impress you? Did that director, did you like what the director said to you? Was that casting director open and solicit us? I'm always trying to deescalate, just make it calmer. So what, what do you think? Also talk about money. What I told my clients was, you will never be paid properly in this business. Ever. You will be overpaid or underpaid. It's going to be too much or too little. You're never going to be paid what you want. They say, how dare they offer me so little cut to Wow. Are you kidding? With no real in-between, I've never had a client say, oh, that's about right. Yeah, that's, that's a sure. No, it's too much. Or too it's wow. Or it's too little.

Kevin Goetz (22:16):

When we come back, we are going to continue our conversation and talk more about leaving the agency business and getting into second acts. We'll be back in a moment.

Announcer (22:28):

Get a glimpse into a secret part of Hollywood that few are aware of and that filmmakers rarely talk about in the book, Audienceology by Kevin Goetz. Each chapter is filled with never-before revealed insider stories and interviews from famous studio chiefs, directors, producers, and movie stars, bringing the art and science of audienceology into focus. Audienceology, How Moviegoers Shaped the Films We Love from Tiller Press at Simon and Schuster. Available now.

Kevin Goetz (23:00):

We're back with the wonderful power couple <laugh>, Paula Wagner and Rick Nicita. By the way, before we get into leaving the agency business, Paula mentioned just a few minutes ago about, if I'm not doing the job of a manager, meaning if you need a manager, I'm not doing my job. And I thought that was really profound and very helpful advice as an agent. As an agent. Yeah. Rick, do you agree with that?

Rick Nicita (23:28):

Well, I would echo that. I would agree with that. In 1980 to 90 to 2000 or so, because there's been a sea change in the whole agency function in structure. Things changed. Things evolved. And when we started, when, when Paula and I started as agents, it was under the heading of managers. It was, you have a manager really, you cut to, who's your manager? Not even do you have a manager now? It's Oh, nice to meet you. 

Kevin Goetz (24:00):

When you were an agent, did you not want to work with managers?

Rick Nicita (24:04):

I couldn't figure out what they did.

Kevin Goetz (24:06):

Well, I had a manager my whole life. I had Barbara Jarret to start. Yeah. Barbara Jarrett was the one that started Brooke Shields. Yeah. And Elizabeth Shue. And Lori Laughlin. And, and then she was a young person's manager. And in New York, you know, you freelanced with agents. So every job I went out for, if I went for a commercial for Toyota, you know, FBI is your agent. This one, Phoebe Oscar is your agent. William Morris is your agent. Bill Crest Agency, Life cereal. He likes it. They started as Mikey, he likes it. They started an agency called. So there I had maybe 20 different agents that would be assigned. And I worked as doing commercials. So that was nice for them.

Rick Nicita (24:46):

Look, I owed my agent and career to a manager in New York named Bill Tresh.

Kevin Goetz (24:53):

Tresh.

Rick Nicita (24:53):

Bill Tresh.

Kevin Goetz (24:54):

Who was he?

Paula Wagner (24:54):

Great. Yeah.

Rick Nicita (24:55):

King of the new young New York talent in the late seventies. And he placed clients with me. He made my career as simple as that. The question here isn't so much what managers do as what agents don't do.

Paula Wagner (25:10):

Well, I trained with Susan Smith, and Susan actually left being an agent, a certain point. Became an amazing manager. So her vision of what it meant to be an agent was probably more managerial. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative> as an agent, you were doing everything.

Kevin Goetz (25:26):

More transactional, more transit. It's a license, it's a real estate agent, any kind of agent.

Paula Wagner (25:32):

But it still was nurturing, developing tasks.

Rick Nicita (25:34):

Personal, growing career.

Kevin Goetz (25:35):

And when did that change? Was that under, so the Mike Ovitz area at time?

Rick Nicita (25:39):

No, that, well, I, I, Ron Meyer, I don't quite know what he did. I wouldn't put it under them. I think it's when there was a consolidation and agencies became bigger. There used to be what we'd call the mom and pop shops chasing center and the boutiques. And they were small enough so that the agents were able to pay personal attention to the clients. In other words, it was a very…

Kevin Goetz (26:03):

And then packaging and all that came to be. Right.

Rick Nicita (26:06):

But I don't know if that has that much to do with it. I think. Interesting. I think it's numerical. I almost think it's numerical. A small agency with a small client list, personal attention, a huge agency with an even huger, you know, they x employees and 10 x clients and keep 'em coming. There's no time and space for personal attention. So the agents step back, very interesting agents, step back, nature abhors a vacuum. Yes. In come managers. So right now, a manager, I believe is needed and necessary because of the change of function where agents are much more transactional. Your word just now. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative> than they used to be. It's the deal. And employment. Their employment.

Kevin Goetz (26:52):

So you think managers now are far more necessary?

Rick Nicita (26:54):

Yeah. Oh yeah. Right now.

Paula Wagner (26:55):

I agree. Absolutely. And when the agencies became so vertically integrated, which is what has happened to the agencies. Yeah. Managers are necessary. Yeah. When the agency business in the eighties, it was actors, directors, writers, some producers, some television, film. That was it.

Kevin Goetz (27:17):

Paula, why did you leave agenting?

Paula Wagner (27:20):

I loved it, actually. And I was on top of my game. But somehow I found that what I was doing naturally was putting the films together, functioning like a principal in some ways I couldn't help myself. But in fact, an agent is a representative. You are not the principal. And somehow I thought, I want to put films together. I want to be involved.

Rick Nicita (27:49):

Creativity.

Paula Wagner (27:50):

The creativity. It was the right brain saying, although I have such incredible regard for the creativity and the brilliance and…

Kevin Goetz (28:01):

Of the good ones, of the great ones.

Paula Wagner (28:02):

Of the agents, of the great agents.

Rick Nicita (28:04):

Please say what happened to Rainman?

Paula Wagner (28:07):

Oh, <laugh>. You were there 'cause we were going up to big serve for Thanksgiving, and we'd always take a stack of scripts. That was the great thing about working together at this point. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. Because we would read our nine scripts for the weekend, or.

Kevin Goetz (28:21):

And let's go wait a beautiful place to do it

Paula Wagner (28:23):

And go do it. And we're together doing this, which was great. There was a film Mike Ovitz brought up in the meeting that he was working on with Dustin Hoffman called Rainman. And he said, but we're trying to find his older brother. They had been talking to Bill Murray at some point, and it just sounded like a really interesting film. I think there was a director involved at that point. But…

Kevin Goetz (28:46):

So it wasn't Barry?

Paula Wagner (28:48):

No, no. This was, this was a, an evolution of this project, of how it got made. So I read the script and I got tears. It was just so beautiful. The script. The guy said, oh, you've gotta read this. I gave it to Rick to read it. It was so amazing. But it didn't make sense with Dustin's older brother, because he would've known about Dustin if you know the story. Absolutely. So what made more sense is a younger brother and who better than my young client, Tom Cruise. So I brought it up in the meeting.

Rick Nicita (29:24):

She says to me, says, Tom should play the role. I go, honey, it's older, older brother. And she goes, no, no, no. Should be the younger brother and it should be Tom.

Paula Wagner (29:34):

Oh. And I brought it up in the meeting, and I will say I got a few laughs except Mike said, Hmm, interesting idea. And then that started the whole thing. But I did get it.

Kevin Goetz (29:46):

Paula.

Paula Wagner (29:48):

People were like Paula, you always are coming up with all these.

Kevin Goetz (29:49):

Oh no.

Paula Wagner (29:51):

No. Born on the Fourth.

Kevin Goetz (29:52):

Born on the 4th of July. Yeah. Same thing. The same kind of thing?

Paula Wagner (29:56):

Yeah. Born on the 4th of July. Well, I represented Oliver Stone and I said, do you have anything, any script lying around someplace? And he said, yeah, this film that never got off the ground, I had your client Al Pacino.

Rick Nicita (30:11):

Yeah. I was supposed to do it. Not when I was…

Paula Wagner (30:13):

Not when you were, but, and this whole, and I said, oh, I'd love to read it because it's in the middle of the eighties and the eighties are this. Go go move fast. And it was so incongruous, you know, of, of a, a Vietnam War film. A true story. But I read it and I said, this is the greatest role I've ever read. I love it when you have a full page monologue for an actor 'cause as an actor, I would look at that and I'm like, oh yes, my God, you can just go to town. And it was a great role. And put Tom and Oliver together, and everybody, and Tom, and he was so brilliant. But a lot of people were like, what? Why would you have him play this guy that…

Rick Nicita (30:54):

Your pressure, not.

Kevin Goetz (30:55):

But see, Rick.

Paula Wagner (30:56):

Ruins his career.

Kevin Goetz (30:57):

That's the genius of the great agent who's now thinking about a bigger picture. Not just her client, but what would be best to service the material. And then she happened to have the biggest movie star in the world.

Rick Nicita (31:09):

Each decision is supposed to not make you rich. Worry about that later. It's supposed to expand opportunities so that if you do this, you'll have more opportunities. And if you do the next one, you have even more opportunities. The number one thing an agent does is decide, I won't say the name, but this sums up what I think what an agent has to do in being an agent. Very famous actor, there's an offer for him to do a certain movie. And I wanted him to do it, but he couldn't make up his mind. It was the right role for him. A great financial offer, which even he acknowledged was a great money offer. Finally, I said to him, literally on the phone, I said, what I'm doing, I'm hanging up on you, and I'm calling them and accepting the role. Bang, I do it. I hang up, call, accept the role, call 'em back. I say, I did it. You're doing it. He goes, thank you. Thank you so much. I really appreciate that.

Kevin Goetz (32:03):

Be honest with me here. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>, both of you. Do you bring every single offer to your client?

Rick Nicita (32:11):

I was a little less so I tried to work it so I had permission to turn down stuff that doesn't that.

Kevin Goetz (32:17):

You knew was so.

Rick Nicita (32:17):

Far the rock bottom note, the middle. I'd go, the middling thing. By the way, I'm only talking about material. I'm not talking about money. In other words, in my judgment here, the bottom ones, I would just shoo away the middling ones. I'd tell 'em, I'd say, don't bother reading it. Don't trust me. No go. And anything that was competitive.

Kevin Goetz (32:37):

To consider.

Rick Nicita (32:38):

Yeah. I always had a point of view. Do this, don't do that. Seriously.

Kevin Goetz (32:43):

That's what I would want. If I were in that position, I would want someone vetting that's who I respected and then trusted. You know?

Paula Wagner (32:48):

Exactly. But actually, if it were a firm financial offer, yes. But take an offer. I would take.

Kevin Goetz (32:57):

That's your fiduciary responsibility as an agent. Now, when you and Tom started the company, you started Cruise/Wagner, by the way, why isn't not called Wagner Cruise?

Paula Wagner (33:07):

<laugh>?

Kevin Goetz (33:08):

I have a feeling Tom probably said No. It should be called Wagner/Cruz. And you said, Nope. Cruise/Wagner. No, it sounds better.

Paula Wagner (33:16):

No, it, it does sound better. 

Kevin Goetz (33:21):

Look, you are always deferential to your talent because that's who you are.

Paula Wagner (33:24):

Yes. But, but with a strong view. Point of view, view be way always, you know, a, a perspective. 

Kevin Goetz (33:30):

Listen, I watched you, I saw you, and you were a marvelous producer. You are a marvelous producer. We'll talk about Broadway when we sort of end this discussion. But going back to those years, you had tremendously successful years, which actually got you to taking over a studio that was essentially a studio that was dead, and you revived it called United Artists. And there was such life that, and we were all buzzing in the industry that, you know, you got to be a mogul immediately. What was that like?

Paula Wagner (33:59):

Scary as hell. Really scary. Look, it was a idealistic, romantic conceit. The idea. Tell us. The concept to me, the concept of artists having some real control over their own destiny.

Kevin Goetz (34:16):

Some agency, not to use the pun.

Paula Wagner (34:18):

Some agency. So, but having control over their destiny in the films that were done and the evolution and the history. It was a romantic kind of thought to be able to do this. But the reality is what United Artists had become, which was really a label, a title. It was the wrong time and the wrong place. Mm-Hmm. You know, we were in the midst of strikes.

Kevin Goetz (34:44):

Oh, I remember.

Paula Wagner (34:46):

Writer strike a de facto actor’s strike.

Kevin Goetz (34:48):

And that's what you and I really got to know each other better. Yes. In that period of time.

Paula Wagner (34:51):

In that time. And in 07, it was called the financial crisis. Yeah.

Rick Nicita (34:57):

Bad Thing. That was the word I was going to say. That financing of UA was a, the money wasn't quite just sitting there. We had a long road wasn't…

Paula Wagner (35:06):

It was essentially a startup company that had to be started up Yeah. And launched. Sure. Within a <laugh> a couple of months.

Kevin Goetz (35:13):

What made you and Tom work so well for so many years?

Paula Wagner (35:18):

Respect. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative> Tom was a born producer when I was his agent. And he was client. He had a, a first look deal someplace. But I noticed as an actor, he always saw the big picture. He's so good. It wasn't just about his role, you know.

Kevin Goetz (35:36):

Well, let me just say this. There's a lot of people that love Tom Cruise. Okay. I'm crazy about him. We talked about Andrea Jaffe on his team. Yeah. May she rest in peace? Who was his longtime publicist before Pat Kingsley came in. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. And then I saw you and how you both worked with each other. And I was just sort of dazzled by it. And it just worked. So, mutual respect.

Paula Wagner (36:01):

Mutual respect. And look, we loved each other. To this day, I adore him.

Kevin Goetz (36:05):

I love that You still have such a good relationship. Absolutely. Every time I'll see him and bring your name up, it's like, you know, it's just a joy. It's just joy.

Paula Wagner (36:12):

He was just so wonderful. Just from the first meeting when he borrowed <laugh> Sean Penn's sports jacket or something. He was, he was close friends with Sean. They had just done Taps. Look when I left, Rick, shortly thereafter, I think Mike and Ron, but Rick represented Tom at, when we were in the Cruise/Wagner, making Mission Impossible.

Kevin Goetz (36:36):

Oh, you took over the?

Rick Nicita (36:37):

Yeah, it was funny. But we, we'd have, we were sometimes on kind of opposite sides of things. Sometimes we'd be on exactly same side versus the, say the studio or, but other times we'd be…

Paula Wagner (36:50):

We negotiated against each other. Yeah. It was, by the way, for a role in one of the Mission Impossibles.

Kevin Goetz (36:56):

I'm going to ask Rick a question about pillow talk. Is there? You bring it into?

Rick Nicita (37:03):

Absolutely.

Kevin Goetz (37:03):

You bring it into? Oh yeah, you can. Well, Neil and I have a rule. We don't bring business into the, into the bed. 

Rick Nicita (37:08):

Oh, we do.

Paula Wagner (37:10):

Because first of all…

Rick Nicita (37:11):

First off, we enjoy it. I enjoy this business. I always have. And, and so does Paula. We'll go to a restaurant, we'll see a couple of some years say, who have been, obviously they're a couple and they're not saying much to each other. And Paula and I talk endlessly. 

Kevin Goetz (37:30):

Is it about the business sort or is it not about I'm, I'm going to say something true. This is a true love story. I really mean that. I watch you. I see how you behave with each other. You're there to support each other, help each other, and be deferential to each other. It's so beautiful to watch. And I hope Zac and Jesse are cognizant and appreciative of that.

Rick Nicita (37:51):

I believe. We believe they they are.

Paula Wagner (37:53):

They are.

Rick Nicita (37:54):

Yes. By the way, we, we will be married 40 years in October.

Kevin Goetz (37:58):

Mazeltov.

Rick Nicita (37:59):

How about that. Wow. Isn't that hard to believe.

Paula Wagner (38:00):

Should, should we tell that 40 years? But on one of your substantial birthdays, I wanted to do something kind of just out there. And he was at CAA, I was.

Rick Nicita (38:14):

I don't know if you remember, but there was a thing, the stripper gram.

Paula Wagner (38:18):

Do you remember those? 

Rick Nicita (38:19):

Of course. So my birthday and my assistant comes in and says, Rick, you have a stripper gram. And I go, oh God, person comes in big.

Kevin Goetz (38:28):

Oh she ruined it. Yeah.

Rick Nicita (38:29):

Well you couldn't, you couldn't miss it because the door opens. It was right there. Oh, okay. No, it was right there. And so the stripper is, you know, taking this off and the stripper's playing. I'm sitting there watching, I go, geez, looks like Paula. And I thought, Hmm. And then I went, it is Paula. She actually did it <laugh> and came up and did that. And it took me a while to do. Genius. But the extra punchline is that Paula walked through the, we had valet parking. Right. And she was down in the basement where you would park. Yeah. All the time. 

Paula Wagner (39:07):

You know, and I had this whole, I had a wig and I had an actual stripper gram guy that had a little tuxedo that announced it. I paid for the, you know, like I was doing the real thing.

Rick Nicita (39:20):

But as she's walking through the valet, they look up and go, oh, hi Paula.

Paula Wagner (39:24):

Right? And I walk past another agent's desk and I hear one of the assistants go, oh my God, I think we've had two of those today.

Rick Nicita (39:33):

I got my share of stripper grams <laugh>.

Paula Wagner (39:35):

But you can't do that now. You can't do that. That was in the, speaking of eighties. Alright. This is, that was in the late eighties. Not look, or the nineties.

Rick Nicita (39:44):

I'm not sure we'd be married if today's political correctness.

Kevin Goetz (39:51):

Yeah, a hundred percent. No, no, a hundred percent.

Rick Nicita (39:54):

Why? Because look, I was doing my best to woo her. I mean, I just felt badly.

Kevin Goetz (40:00):

Well, you know, there's all, now you'd have to report it to HR. Oh yes. About to get into a relationship. No, you have to. I want to ask you something about the business in general. Where is it going? What are we going to do? I, I'm going to be honest. I find it exciting. Yeah. I find great opportunity, and I'd like to know what you both think of it, Paula?

Paula Wagner (40:22):

I think movies aren't going away and they'll be a renaissance for film. I just don't think that movies are at the center of our culture the way they used to be. It used to be that movies defined culture or reflected culture. And they were at the center, the talk around the water cooler in an office. Those moments where I saw the greatest movie last night, go see it. And it became. They are here to stay, but it's morphing and it's all technology driven.

Rick Nicita (40:58):

I think that we're all going to be fine because human beings want stories told with visual representations if possible. Therefore, there will be a consistent appetite. The technology and the culture will stagger along trying to figure out how to get these stories with visual representations to the audience. But the audience is there. We'll figure it out. It's never going to go away. And the talent is what will always stay. There will always be a knock on the door of the talent. The question is who's outside the…

Kevin Goetz (41:33):

Okay, hold on, let's talk about that. So unpack that a little bit. No movie stars anymore.

Paula Wagner (41:37):

There are movie stars, but they can't, they're different though, aren't they? They're not. I mean, look, uh, I,

Kevin Goetz (41:42):

Who's Tom Cruise? Come on.

Paula Wagner (41:44):

Tom Cruise is amazing.

Kevin Goetz (41:46):

I'll tell you who Tom Cruise is. You know Tom Cruise.

Paula Wagner (41:47):

Yeah.

Kevin Goetz (41:48):

No, I'm sorry. He's still one of the biggest stars in the world.

Paula Wagner (41:51):

He became a star like 21. You know, when I understand that he slid across the floor.

Kevin Goetz (41:56):

But what are we doing as an industry?

Paula Wagner (41:58):

What we're doing is that

Kevin Goetz (41:59):

Has stopped that.

Paula Wagner (42:00):

Social media that you can see anything about anybody. There's something about, about, there's no secret.

Kevin Goetz (42:05):

No mystery.

Paula Wagner (42:06):

Secret of movie star.

Rick Nicita (42:07):

No mystery. People magazine. When they say movie stars, they're just like us. I went, oh no, they're not babe. They showing them coming outta Starbucks, you know, looking glassy-eyed Uhuh. Uh, no go. No go. Yeah. And, and I think that's the social media and the media is complicit with that too. But we get what we deserve. I've always thought that if you went back to the 1940s and you got Cary Grant walking down the red carpet and he fell, I swear the photographers would turn away and go, are you okay Mr. Grant? He'd go, I'm all right boys. And he'd stand up and they'd go, okay. And then they'd go back. Now they'd be jumping on him, going up to his eyeballs, hoping he's hurt.

Kevin Goetz (42:48):

What's going to change?

Rick Nicita (42:49):

I think, and maybe I'm just naive, I think there will be a kinder culture. I think just right now, oh boy, we're in terrible.

Kevin Goetz (42:56):

I hope you’re right.

Paula Wagner (42:57):

But it's a culture that's filled with fear. Because when I started as an agent in the eighties, what excited me was the idea of being able to help build their, I loved the idea of movie stardom while he was watching King Kong, I of course was watching I'll Cry Tomorrow, I was watching all these women, the movie stars just enthralled me the idea. And in the eighties, the studios were making all these youth films, John Hughes and all of this. And they were casting young unknown actors. Tom, Risky Business. Nobody really knew who he was. Or another of my clients, Matthew Broderick in Ferris Bueller's Day Off, or Sean Penn in Fast Times at Ridgemont High, they have to you know.

Kevin Goetz (43:48):

Decades long careers. Yes. Now, I also think that, didn't they teach us at the neighborhood playhouse, that television at that time, soap operas in particular, deadened the actor, right? Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. And you needed to stretch your muscle through the theater, and you needed to do movies. A lot of them, you think of Bette Davis, she was always working the muscle. And I don't think we allow our talent to do that. Good, bad, or otherwise. Like they're not playing in the sandbox.

Rick Nicita (44:16):

I think part of it, and this is not going to win me a lot of friends, I think part of it is the talent's fault that they're selling out and not pursuing what it is that they really should be.

Kevin Goetz (44:28):

Who do you think has the most promising career today as a young person? I mean, we can go Ryan Gosling, of course, but he's not that young anymore. You know, I'm talking like the up and comers. Ryan has done a body of work already. You see what I mean? Look how we have to struggle. I'm going to say this. If I asked you this 20 years ago, we would be Stallone, Schwarzenegger. Yeah. Bruce Willis, Eddie Murphy, Denzel Washington, Tom Cruise, Tom Hanks. You know, it would be the list of them and the women. You know, Julia Roberts, Meg Ryan, Sandra. But it would be never easy to, we can't think of people now. That is troubling to me.

Paula Wagner (45:03):

But they don't, because there's a fear to introduce the unknown. We're, we're so brand oriented in everything we do as a culture.

Kevin Goetz (45:13):

And the young people, I asked a young actor last week, what's going on? Or whatever. And he said, oh, well, I just hired my branding manager, branding something.

Paula Wagner (45:24):

But again, it's vertically integrating. So if you have.

Kevin Goetz (45:27):

Timothy Chalamet, probably.

Rick Nicita (45:29):

I was just going to say him. I was going to say Austin Butler.

Kevin Goetz (45:32):

And certainly Zendaya.

Paula Wagner (45:33):

Yes, absolutely.

Kevin Goetz (45:34):

But again, guys, look how we had a struggle to get those names. And I just think to what you're saying, Paula, we have to have more of a reverence for the artists and a place for them to work.

Paula Wagner (45:46):

Also, I was going to say, speaking about Andrea Jaffe, Andrea Jaffe and I, who's Tom's publicist worked really closely together so that it was about getting the right roles. Doing the right roles, and having a philosophy of a career.

Kevin Goetz (46:02):

Would you call Andrea before accepting a role? Which, and say, here what we’re thinking.

Paula Wagner (46:05):

No, not really. We would talk conceptually, but no, but right away after to say, how do you want to position this? What are we going to do with it? Looking at the film, I mean, there was care and more simplicity in managing and directing and guiding the careers. That's what Rick and I are both saying this, we both did this. What excited me about being an agent was guiding, developing, and building careers.

Kevin Goetz (46:33):

Building. That was Rick said in the beginning of this podcast, the easy thing is closing the deal. Yes. But the more challenging, difficult, and probably more fun thing by far, is to build a career. Watching those successes. Watching that growth.

Rick Nicita (46:46):

Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. And when you represent stars, which Paula and I were both fortunate enough to do, you get a lot of offers. So what do you do? Which one you, it's up to the agent to figure out. Not that one. Not that one, that one. This is the one.

Kevin Goetz (46:59):

Is there a time where a star has like overruled you and you know, you knew innately that they were wrong?

Rick Nicita (47:05):

For sure I could, I always said that I could talk any client out of doing anything. But it was sometimes hard to talk them into doing something.

Kevin Goetz (47:15):

Did you ever talk someone into do something? They didn't want to do it. And it turned out to be really successful. I think this Sissy Spacek in Coal Miner's Daughter is one example.

Paula Wagner (47:23):

So, I did Matthew Broderick and Ferris Bueller's Day Off. Mm-Hmm. Arnold Stifel was his manager. So the two of us. And that was when you had a manager, you worked very closely with him. Talked and talked and talked. And Matthew acknowledges that he's wonderful. He's a brilliant actor. He was a stage actor, serious actor. And here this Ferris Bueller's Day Off comes along, this John Hughes teen movie. But he did it. 

Kevin Goetz (47:54):

And it defined him.

Paula Wagner (47:55):

It defined him, but he didn't want to do it. And there I had a number of those cases.

Kevin Goetz (48:00):

I like that. Well, I mean, again, we could talk forever. I want to end with something though, Paula. I want to end with Broadway where we started and ask you about what you're doing now. I had the wonderful opportunity to work and conduct research on one of your latest, Pretty Woman that went to Broadway. We tested it out of town in Chicago. You made some absolutely changes based on audience feedback. Brilliant. I so respect you for that. What's up next? What are you, what are you thinking about?

Paula Wagner (48:25):

Well, you, you know, the theater was where I began.

Kevin Goetz (48:30):

And by the way, we didn't mention your first marriage.

Paula Wagner (48:32):

His name was Robin Wagner, and he was the preeminent stage designer. He designed Hair, Lenny, Jesus Christ Superstar, Chorus Line, The Producers.

Kevin Goetz (48:44):

He did the mirrors in Chorus Line?

Paula Wagner (48:46):

Yeah. Wow. He just recently passed away.

Kevin Goetz (48:49):

And with whom you maintained a relationship.

Paula Wagner (48:52):

Very friendly. Yes. Rick knew him also.

Kevin Goetz (48:55):

Your first wife was Wallyis Nicita, I think she started casting, did very successful. Very successful. And then moved to producing with Lauren Lloyd and among other, yeah, exactly. So you see how far we all go back. Oh, baby. Paula, anything left that you can share in terms of Broadway shows that you're working on? Or do you prefer to keep it?

Paula Wagner (49:14):

Broadway.

Kevin Goetz (49:15):

<laugh>. I mean…

Paula Wagner (49:16):

We, everything is a little close to the vest, but Broadway always from the beginning. And 10 years ago, I went back and produced my first Broadway show, which was The Eras starring Jessica Chastain.

Kevin Goetz (49:29):

It’s a wonderful, oh boy.

Paula Wagner (49:30):

And Dan Stevens came over and did it. It was a whole thing.

Kevin Goetz (49:34):

David Strathern.

Paula Wagner (49:34):

David Strathern. Yeah. So I've done a number of shows.

Kevin Goetz (49:37):

I saw Cherry Jones do it, by the way, who was also Miss Britney.

Paula Wagner (49:39):

Yeah. She was great. And Pretty Woman, which a Pretty Woman, the musical. But it always, it was an amazing film that cried out to be a musical. Rick represented Gary Marshall.

Kevin Goetz (49:54):

Oh, Gary Marshall. Gary, my man. I, Ted, you know Kevin, I'm going to talk to you now about how we're going to do this, having a party.

Paula Wagner (50:04):

And he was very much part of that evolution, me producing that with his client, Gary Marshall. 

Kevin Goetz (50:12):

There's a rumor I heard, because I'm friends with Maria Cooper, Gary Cooper's daughter, and tell me if it's true, you can just confirm it or we don't have to get into it, but I hear you are thinking about, or maybe further than thinking about High Noon.

Paula Wagner (50:27):

More than thinking we are doing High Noon for Broadway. Wow. Next year.

Kevin Goetz (50:35):

And no one cast yet.

Paula Wagner (50:36):

Well, there's some.

Kevin Goetz (50:38):

All right. Stay tuned folks. We'll have Paula back when that happens. 

Paula Wagner (50:41):

But is the playwriting debut of an extraordinary screenwriter, Eric Roth.

Kevin Goetz (50:49):

I think we've heard of him.

Paula Wagner (50:50):

He wrote the play.

Kevin Goetz (50:52):

Eric Roth, guys, Forrest Gump, need I say more and a million other things.

Paula Wagner (50:55):

He wrote the play and we're coming to Broadway. And it's fascinating because when you think about it, it really was an allegory for the blacklist. Ooh. And if you transpose that to, oh, that's deep our time. You bet. And Eric has written an extraordinary script.

Kevin Goetz (51:13):

Now that's a straight play. 

Paula Wagner (51:14):

That's a straight play. There was some music in it. Not at the moment. I'm doing another one in London based on a film that Tom and I had executive produced called The Others.

Kevin Goetz (51:26):

Oh my God, that movie Nicole. Nicole. That was so, so good. It's one of the best horror gothic thrillers I've ever seen.

Rick Nicita (51:33):

Perfect as a play. It's self-contained. It's in the house.

Kevin Goetz (51:37):

Are you involved in it, Rick, or no?

Paula Wagner (51:39):

He, well, we're involved with everything we do. <laugh>. Yeah. With each other. Oh my God. I'm his biggest champion.

Kevin Goetz (51:47):

Well, that's so obvious.

Paula Wagner (51:48):

I'm a fan of Rick Nicita's. Huge, huge fan.

Kevin Goetz (51:50):

Well, I'm a fan of Rick Nicita and I'm a fan of Paula Wagner's.

Rick Nicita (51:54):

Somebody back in the old CAA days made a T-shirt, Paula Wagner fan club. The big picture of Paula, which is the thing is 30 years old. But I wear it. And I wore it last night, the T-shirt. Right.

Kevin Goetz (52:05):

Guys, listen, you are Hollywood royalty. Mm-Hmm. And I'm so blessed not only to have you here, but to call you friends and love that our relationship keeps unfolding.

Paula Wagner (52:16):

We love you.

Rick Nicita (52:18):

The research proves, highly recommend <laugh>.

Kevin Goetz (52:20):

Thank you both so much. To our listeners, I hope you enjoyed our interview today. For more filmmaking and audience testing stories, I invite you to check out my book, Audienceology, at Amazon or through my website at KevinGoetz360.com. And also, please follow me on my social media. Next time on Don't Kill the Messenger, I'll welcome Grammy Award nominated executive, Spring Aspers, president of the Sony Pictures Music Group. Until then, I'm Kevin Goetz, and to you, our listeners, I appreciate you being part of the movie making process. Your opinions matter.

Host: Kevin Goetz
Guests: Paula Wagner and Rick Nicita
Producer: Kari Campano
Writers: Kevin Goetz, Darlene Hayman, and Kari Campano
Audio Engineer: Gary Forbes (DG Entertainment)