Podcast: Don't Kill the Messenger with Movie Research Expert Kevin Goetz
Guest: President of Sony Music Group, Spring Aspers
Interview Transcript:

Announcer (00:02):

There's a little-known part of Hollywood that most people are not aware of, known as the audience test preview. The recently released book Audienceology reveals this for the first time. Our podcast series, Don't Kill the Messenger, brings this book to life, taking a peek behind the curtain. And now join author and entertainment research expert, Kevin Goetz.

Kevin Goetz (00:23):

Music is vital in a movie -- enhancing emotions, setting the tone, and aiding storytelling. It deepens viewer engagement by amplifying the impact of scenes and seamlessly transitioning between moments, shaping the overall film experience. It truly can make or break a movie. My guest today is Grammy Award nominated executive Spring Aspers, President of the Sony Pictures music group. In her position, she works with filmmakers to select songs, artists, and composers for Sony Pictures’ projects. She's also responsible for all music initiatives including development, production, and promotion. Spring, welcome to my show.

Spring Aspers (01:08):

Thank you. I'm excited to be here.

Kevin Goetz (01:11):

I feel like we see each other all the time. We are sort of new friends. We have been around each other so long, but we never really got to know each other until a plane ride on the studio jet.

Spring Aspers (01:22):

Yes, we got that time to really just talk and discuss the world that we're in, but also just discuss a bit more about our personal lives. And I think that's the beauty of being in entertainment is that you have these jobs, but you also have wonderful relationships with people.

Kevin Goetz (01:42):

And I see people at sort of their most vulnerable because they're in a state of showing their babies to the world, revealing them. Let's talk about you. You come from New York. 

Spring Aspers (01:55):

Yes. I originally come from New York City. I was a bit of a bohemian child.

Kevin Goetz (01:59):

You're an only child too.

Spring Aspers (02:00):

I'm an only child.

Kevin Goetz (02:01):

And your name is Spring. And that says a lot about the creativity of your parents.

Spring Aspers (02:08):

That's true. It comes from an old movie.

Kevin Goetz (02:10):

What movie?

Spring Aspers (02:11):

Haley Mills was very well known for playing twins in the original Parent Trap. And when she got a little bit older, did a film with her dad, John Mills, I believe, where she played a girl named Spring. And the film is called The Truth About Spring.

Kevin Goetz (02:28):

Oh wow.

Spring Aspers (02:29):

And my mom was a big fan.

Kevin Goetz (02:31):

Tell me about your parents. What did they do?

Spring Aspers (02:33):

So I have a complicated history. As one might imagine. My family's in northern Minnesota and my birth father, who's a wonderful man, I love him, he sort of dealt with some stuff and just couldn't be present at the time. And when I was younger, my mom met an artist who was living on the Lower East Side and basically took off to New York City with him. She was very into experimental theater and he was an abstract painter.

Kevin Goetz (03:06):

Yeah, all that downtown Manhattan creative vibe.

Spring Aspers (03:10):

Yes. And so there was a period when I was very young, I remember in Soho it used to be all textile mills and there would be scraps of fabric leftover from whatever function that factory was doing just on the sidewalks, just in garbage bags in the sidewalk. And my parents would take those textile scraps and make puppets and we would go outside the Metropolitan Museum and have a table and sell puppets. That's one of my earliest memories.

Kevin Goetz (03:40):

Oh, that's so interesting. How creative was that?

Spring Aspers (03:43):

So I grew up in this arena of creativity around a lot of music, painting, art. All of it was just uniformly together in the environment.

Kevin Goetz (03:56):

When did you get your passion for music? Do you remember? Was there a seminal moment? Was there a band? Was there that's what I want to do?

Spring Aspers (04:03):

No, it wasn't that. It's just that it was always there.

Kevin Goetz (04:08):

Always present.

Spring Aspers (04:09):

Well, I was around a lot of artists, but I think when I say it was always there, it's that I would hear a song and get stuck on it. I remember being, I think two years old and listening to Here Comes The Sun by The Beatles, and I would listen to it over 50 times in a row. And so that's really how I think of it, is that I would just almost get stuck in a song. And I have a bunch of those that have just happened naturally. And when I hear those songs, they define certain moments in my life.

Kevin Goetz (04:43):

Who did have a big influence on you, musically?

Spring Aspers (04:47):

Look, I was around a lot of different musical scenes. I also lived in upstate New York and Woodstock, so I was around a lot of musicians. I was around tons of artists in New York City. I came up through that hip hop scene. I was just a fan. I just loved it.

Kevin Goetz (05:04):

So it's hard to say. It's almost like saying, what's your favorite color?

Spring Aspers (05:07):

There's so many.

Kevin Goetz (05:08):

Is there a genre of music that you're not as crazy about, innately?

Spring Aspers (05:13):

I've had a lot of different phases. I listened to a lot of metal for a while. I wouldn't say it like that. I would say that music has had different phases. Naturally. I never put effort into it, and so I would just be a fan and I stay that way in my job now. I don't force myself to go to things and see things. I just latch onto it. So is there a genre that I don't like? I would say that the music that I don't like is mean.

Kevin Goetz (05:44):

Oh, mean-spirited?

Spring Aspers (05:45):

Mean-spirited, violent. I don't tend to any genre that has that contained in it. And I like music that's a release of energy. That's an expression. I don't mind it being loud and aggressive. I just don't like hateful music.

Kevin Goetz (05:58):

I want to ask you about, you came up as a music coordinator and then a music supervisor?

Spring Aspers (06:04):

Yeah, absolutely. I am a bit unusual that I've done very different jobs within film music, excuse me, and television streaming, all of that. But my life's work has been really passionately dedicated to film music. Most certainly. I actually started as an intern for an incredible woman named Pilar McCurry, who was just a defining music supervisor. She passed away a few years ago.

Kevin Goetz (06:32):

I think you might've actually told me that story. I was moved by it. Can you tell me about her?

Spring Aspers (06:36):

She was just an incredible human being and I started as her intern and she became my best friend and my mentor. And I often say it's really important who you learn from. And I got very lucky because at the time I was just trying to find a job and to pay my rent and to get by that I happened to tap into this brilliant person and learn a ton from her. She did a lot of very amazing work. She did this soundtrack that was seminal called Love Jones. It was incredible. Still to this day, it's sort of my mantra of what a soundtrack can be.

Kevin Goetz (07:17):

It's incredible.

Spring Aspers (07:18):

It's absolutely gorgeous and I recommend everybody go find it and listen to it. And that's something that I saw her really curate, really work with the director, really put together and I saw her process with that up close.

Kevin Goetz (07:33):

Why are there so many badass women in music supervision?

Spring Aspers (07:37):

My guess, I don't know, but I think there's something to do with multitasking. I think women's brains, this is not scientific, this is certainly just anecdotal, but I feel that women are really good multitaskers and I think it's a job that calls for that.

Kevin Goetz (07:54):

I've never heard it said that way. Wonderful. Can you explain to the listeners what the difference is between a coordinator, a supervisor, what you do at the studio, what someone does at the label, et cetera?

Spring Aspers (08:08):

So yeah, I started as an intern and I'm now a president. You learn everything along the way. Right? You bet. And I was never too big to do any part of it. I just dove in and did the work.

Kevin Goetz (08:16):

You were like a sponge. You wanted to learn.

Spring Aspers (08:18):

I liked it.

Kevin Goetz (08:19):

Sure.

Spring Aspers (08:20):

Have a seat at something that you like. Although my husband says it's still work, it's not called play right? People say love what you do. So here's what a coordinator does, and again, there's not exact job definitions like everything in Hollywood, but essentially you're kind of collecting materials. You might be doing song searches.

Kevin Goetz (08:39):

Who are you working for?

Spring Aspers (08:41):

You're there basically to assist the music supervisor.

Kevin Goetz (08:44):

What is the music supervisor's function?

Spring Aspers (08:47):

In general, and again, there's a lot of gray area, but in general, a music supervisor helps curate the songs for the project.

Kevin Goetz (08:58):

But is that included in the temp track?

Spring Aspers (09:01):

Yes. And helps realize the director's vision of what those songs.

Kevin Goetz (09:06):

Okay. So when is the music supervisor brought in?

Spring Aspers (09:09):

Depends on the film.

Kevin Goetz (09:11):

Typically?

Spring Aspers (09:11):

Quite often, I would say early if they haven't shot the film and there are certain songs that need to be dealt with on camera. You need to make sure that those songs are cleared and picked.

Kevin Goetz (09:25):

You mean they're inherently part of the fabric? Pretty Woman in Pretty Woman. That was the name of the movie. You're going to use that. It was going to be in the shopping sequence. Actually, that’s not the way it really went, but it did turn out. That's right. But that's what I'm just trying to make a point. That's part of the fabric of the movie. So the music supervisor would need to be hired early for something like that?

Spring Aspers (09:48):

That's correct.

Kevin Goetz (09:48):

But most movies don't have that, correct?

Spring Aspers (09:51):

It depends. So sometimes it's somebody dancing on camera or singing a song. You always get that classic like, oh, they're in the car and they hear a song and then they sing along. That's absolutely something that a music supervisor would help.

Kevin Goetz (10:04):

Who hires the music supervisor?

Spring Aspers (10:06):

It can depend. Sometimes you have a director who has a wonderful relationship. Sometimes you have the studio who just goes, Hey, here's some really amazing people we've worked with. Sometimes a producer.

Kevin Goetz (10:18):

How about you?

Spring Aspers (10:19):

Well, I always start with the director on everything.

Kevin Goetz (10:21):

You're deferential to the creatives. Who do you want to use that kind of thing first?

Spring Aspers (10:25):

Always. My job is to make sure that I'm telling the story that the director wants to tell. So my job is to support how that comes to life.

Kevin Goetz (10:36):

I mean, music, as I said in my introduction, can make or break a movie. And especially some of them. I mean, I'm just thinking of one that was recently released. It Ends with Us, which to me, music was such an important part of, and I felt it really helped the narrative all along the way.

Spring Aspers (10:54):

I agree. I think the music adds an emotional height to the movie that made me very moved. And I think the selection of the artists that are in it are just really powerful.

Kevin Goetz (11:10):

And how did that come about? Let's just use that movie as an example. So the director you meet with early on, they kind of tell you the vibe they want to go for and then you and your team go searching for stuff to present to them.

Spring Aspers (11:22):

Well, that one was a little different because had a partner in it.

Kevin Goetz (11:25):

So you came in later, then?

Spring Aspers (11:27):

I came in later. I think once we saw the cut, it was like, okay, now we've got to kind of go realize all this stuff. So let's bring in the troops. And there were some complicated clearances to be done.

Kevin Goetz (11:39):

I know people think you just want this song. Well, you may not get that song for a variety of reasons.

Spring Aspers (11:44):

Yeah, exactly. And things were, there was some really beautiful choices, but there's a lot sort of technically behind the scenes to make this happen.

Kevin Goetz (11:50):

Like that person doesn't want to give you that or they won't allow a cover or you can't afford it.

Spring Aspers (11:57):

Right. Or what's the content of the scene?

Kevin Goetz (11:59):

How do you set a music budget? Can you tell us the factors it's based on?

Spring Aspers (12:03):

Yes. What you start with is looking at the script. You talk to the director, get the vision, and then you go by how much the movie is being made for as a whole and the market value of the songs.

Kevin Goetz (12:17):

Aren't you contributing to that? You're getting a call from Andy Davis or from, for example, the head of physical production and he will tell you what we're thinking about. Is he going to then say, what do you think music is going to be for this?

Spring Aspers (12:32):

Yeah, usually people just say, Hey, Spring, can you take a look and give us your recommend? And it's based on me having read the script, speaking to the filmmaker, speaking to the director typically, and saying, Hey, this is what I think this is.

Kevin Goetz (12:48):

How often does the music go over budget? Because I cannot tell you how many times I have sat in focus groups and the audience falls in love with needle drops, songs that are either unattainable or way too expensive to get. And is it like a manipulation on their part to try to make you see what they see? That's got to be a hard dance for you?

Spring Aspers (13:18):

Well, I mean, it's absolutely something that is a conversation, right? That's when you come in early and you say, Hey, this is something that's going to be very tricky. And sometimes it's not just cost, by the way. Sometimes it's knowing an artist or an artist estate's preference, and that just comes with experience going, Hey, they may not want their song used in this way. And to me, that's the artist's, right? I come from an artist's point of view.

Kevin Goetz (13:47):

Have you persuaded people though?

Spring Aspers (13:49):

I think when I see something that I think would be really mutually beneficial, I've absolutely advocated for it. Absolutely.

Kevin Goetz (13:59):

And you've gotten your way?

Spring Aspers (14:00):

Yes.

Kevin Goetz (14:00):

After they've said no.

Spring Aspers (14:01):

Yeah, because sometimes you don't get a lot of context.

Kevin Goetz (14:03):

Well, you sometimes say, let me speak to the…explain, in music, there are two licenses that you need to obtain. There's the publishing license and the master use license, correct?

Spring Aspers (14:15):

Correct.

Kevin Goetz (14:15):

Can you explain the difference between the two?

Spring Aspers (14:17):

Okay. This is always my example with it. Kevin, give me a couple words. Just say any words that come to your mind.

Kevin Goetz (14:24):

Four score and seven years ago.

Spring Aspers (14:26):

Okay. That is your song. Kevin has written a song with the lyrics four score and seven years ago that is your publishing. You're the songwriter, you sing it beautifully.

Kevin Goetz (14:39):

Four score and seven years ago.

Spring Aspers (14:41):

Exquisite. And you say Spring, I want you to use this in a movie, please. I'm pitching it to you. And I go, okay, Kevin, I'm going to pay you as the songwriter for your publishing and also your recording of singing it. Now what if I sing it? That recording, and we want to use that in a film.

Kevin Goetz (15:01):

So I own the underlying rights of four score and seven years ago, but now there's a new singer who also needs to be compensated.

Spring Aspers (15:07):

Correct? Because I'm singing your words.

Kevin Goetz (15:11):

So I own the publishing rights. Who has the master use rights?

Spring Aspers (15:14):

Me at that point, because I've sung it. That's a very…

Kevin Goetz (15:17):

And so does the publisher assign those to someone else?

Spring Aspers (15:20):

That is individual right.

Kevin Goetz (15:22):

That's…

Spring Aspers (15:23):

The wild west of Hollywood.

Kevin Goetz (15:25):

That's negotiable. Interesting.

Spring Aspers (15:27):

And the global world, any artist can decide what other party they want to have ownership. Or if you're going to a publishing company that's really an artist's call.

Kevin Goetz (15:36):

There are certain artists who probably do not want their songs covered. Is that true?

Spring Aspers (15:43):

I would assume that every case exists. That's probably absolutely true.

Kevin Goetz (15:46):

You've never encountered that?

Spring Aspers (15:47):

Well, because there's copyright law and other people can speak to it better than I where you're allowed to cover. If I wanted to sing a Sinatra song, but

Kevin Goetz (15:55):

I can sing a Sinatra song without having to get permission from the Sinatra state.

Spring Aspers (15:59):

Correct. It doesn't mean that I can use it in a film, but so if you look at copyright law, so that to keep it more fair use, and again, you'd have to talk to an attorney more about this, but anybody can go cover anything you could have…

Kevin Goetz (16:15):

And you can use it in a movie?

Spring Aspers (16:16):

No, that's where I come in. I have to get the rights. But anybody can put out an album of covers of anything.

Kevin Goetz (16:22):

They can?

Spring Aspers (16:24):

Go look, there's some pretty wild covers out there.

Kevin Goetz (16:26):

Wow.

Spring Aspers (16:26):

Yeah.

Kevin Goetz (16:27):

But if you want to use in the movie, you're going to have to go back to the Sinatra state and get permission.

Spring Aspers (16:31):

And therein…

Kevin Goetz (16:32):

It’s absolutely not. And therein lies the problem.

Spring Aspers (16:34):

Yeah.

Kevin Goetz (16:35):

Could be.

Spring Aspers (16:35):

Correct. Yeah, it could be.

Kevin Goetz (16:36):

I might love it. I don't know about you listeners. I find it fascinating, all of this stuff. Spring, I know I'm getting into the weeds a lot.

Spring Aspers (16:42):

But it's fun though.

Kevin Goetz (16:43):

It really is.

Spring Aspers (16:44):

It's the best part of what I do is the treasure hunting and the understanding of the business behind the creative. I love the creative, but the business behind it is equally as fascinating.

Kevin Goetz (16:54):

Okay. Who have you broken? Give me a couple of people that you Spring had really something to do with in their success. For example, I think I told you off mic when Kathy Nelson, who is a legendary music supervisor, head of music at both Disney and Universal. And I had lunch recently, and she's going to be a guest here on the podcast. I hope. I know that she was responsible for bringing Pharrell to Chris Meledandri’s attention on Despicable Me.

Speaker 4 (17:25):

Yes.

Kevin Goetz (17:26):

And then of course, on the song Happy used in the next one and so forth. And the rest is history. Actually, Chris's son, who's in the music business, put Pharrell on Chris's radar initially. I love those stories. Isn't that great? Yeah. Give me some of yours.

Spring Aspers (17:42):

Okay. Well, I wasn't fully prepared. I've done hundreds of movies and I should have probably had some of this prepared.

Kevin Goetz (17:47):

No, it's more fun to do it like this.

Spring Aspers (17:50):

I would say I was definitely the first person to use Gary Clark Jr. in a film. I've had a lot of those things where I've been the first to kind of license people. Well, that's

Kevin Goetz (17:59):

What I'm kind of talking about, right?

Spring Aspers (18:00):

Yeah. I've done a lot of that. One of my proudest times is absolutely the Spider-Verse soundtrack, which I helped curate, and got “Sunflower.”

Kevin Goetz (18:10):

Oh my God. I'm going to take a break. When we come back, we're going to hear Spring Aspers’ Grammy nomination story for “Sunflower.” Back in a moment,

Announcer (18:24):

Get a glimpse into a secret part of Hollywood that few are aware of and that filmmakers rarely talk about in the new book Audienceology by Kevin Goetz. Each chapter is filled with never-before-revealed inside stories and interviews from famous studio chiefs, directors, producers, and movie stars, bringing the art and science of audienceology into focus. Audienceology, How Moviegoers Shape the Films We Love, from Tiller Press at Simon and Schuster. Available now.

Kevin Goetz (18:56):

We're back with the beautiful, stunning, and refreshing Spring. I had to say that I had to say something sort of witty. I don't know, Spring. Tell us about the day you were nominated for the Grammys, and then tell us about the Grammys. That had to be exciting. This is a dream of yours, right?

Spring Aspers (19:13):

It's amazing. I mean, for me, I always look at it for the artist because doing a film song is a tricky art. So to be recognized for that personally, yes, it's amazing. But it's also like you took the gamble with us. You went on the journey, you figured out how to tell the essence of that story musically, and now you're getting recognized for it. So something like “Sunflower” is an incredible song.

Kevin Goetz (19:42):

How did you get nominated for it? As the executive at Sony?

Spring Aspers (19:46):

Yeah. Well, as an executive music producer and I helped bring the song to the movie.

Kevin Goetz (19:49):

Is that in your contract some of the times you're an executive producer on stuff?

Spring Aspers (19:54):

No, it's not that it's contractual, it just reflects the work actually done.

Kevin Goetz (19:58):

But a lot of people that I've never heard of a head of music getting authorship of. Oh, it happens a lot?

Spring Aspers (20:07):

Well, I think it depends. I think what it is is I'd have to go look at everybody's histories, but I think that in general, when you're at a studio, it's not about credit, but when you're really doing certain things on soundtracks, the work should reflect what was done.

Kevin Goetz (20:21):

Wow. That's really cool. Now, who are some of the great music executives in our business? Can you just rattle off a few names? I'm just curious who left either an impression on you or were influential to our industry?

Spring Aspers (20:37):

I see a tremendous number of people that are truly passionate music executives. A couple people that come to mind that have been influential. Rob Stringer, who runs all of the Sony Music Group. He's somebody.

Kevin Goetz (20:51):

Do you work very closely with Rob?

Spring Aspers (20:52):

I work very closely with his whole team. Yes. Rob's always available if we need him for something on the picture side, he's a great partner, but he also is just somebody I've watched come up and nurture artists. And what I've seen him do has been very impressive, from Adele to just growing into this super mogul, it’s just he cares about artists. So there's tremendous executives. I just had another wonderful experience with Sylvia Rohn and Ezekiel Lewis on Bad Boys. I think that when you're bringing the right opportunities to artists, they just get excited. So for me, I look for people who are passionate about music. Another person that was very influential in my career was Julie Greenwald, who had been over at Atlantic for a very long time.

Kevin Goetz (21:36):

Why?

Spring Aspers (21:38):

She was the first person that I worked for that I saw in really intense situations. And she was just okay being who she was as a woman. She just had a great voice and she'd be like, and now I need to go get a manicure and I'll deal with that as soon as I can. 

Kevin Goetz (21:58):

Isn't that great?

Spring Aspers (21:59):

And it was hugely influential on me.

Kevin Goetz (22:00):

How about Diane Warren?

Spring Aspers (22:02):

Oh, she's incredible.

Kevin Goetz (22:03):

She's insane. Isn't she great? I mean, I want to have her as a guest.

Spring Aspers (22:07):

Diane Warren. She's a force, well tenacious, but I mean, she's a talented creative force, but she's tenacious.

Kevin Goetz (22:15):

But she's a terrific artist, right?

Spring Aspers (22:17):

Yeah. Well, I mean obviously her…

Kevin Goetz (22:19):

Melody is unparalleled.

Spring Aspers (22:19):

Beautiful, unparalleled.

Kevin Goetz (22:21):

And the nominations, what does she have? Susan Lucci from all My Children I know I've lost has I think just a few more Emmy nominations until she got her Emmy. And Diane has gotten an honorary Oscar, but she's been nominated, what, 16 times or something, or 13 times?

Spring Aspers (22:35):

Yeah. I mean at this point, it's almost like if she got one, I mean, she deserves one, but I think I said that to her. I kind of like the story that she doesn't have it.

Kevin Goetz (22:43):

I know. I think she kind of likes that story now as well. I think after getting the honorary, it's kind of a fun thing.

Spring Aspers (22:49):

I mean, the thing about working with Diane, and I've worked with her on a number of things, is that it's the same thing when I was sort of saying intern to president. Right? No detail goes unnoticed. That is the difference.

Kevin Goetz (23:00):

Ooh, I like that. And it's kind of similar with a Woody Allen film. So Woody Allen has made, every film is terrific. Some are great, but there's no crappy one. It's like Diane Warren. She's really good every time out, but she's sometimes great. You know what I mean?

Spring Aspers (23:19):

Yeah.

Kevin Goetz (23:19):

She's never not good. So you start taking that for granted.

Spring Aspers (23:23):

That's absolutely right. And there's actually a quote, I'm really big into reading quotes to my friends and my family, motivational quotes, things that strike me as being perceptive.

Kevin Goetz (23:33):

What's one of your favorites?

Spring Aspers (23:35):

Well, this is one that I came up recently. I have a bunch, but recently, and they always say that this is attributed to Charles Darwin. They don't really know if that's true or not. I paraphrase. But it's something along the lines of whoever survives, it's not about being the most intelligent or the strongest. It's the most adaptable. And I think that is very true for Hollywood and entertainment. And I really see that in Diane because she's obviously very smart and very strong.

Kevin Goetz (23:59):

That is such a great quote. And it probably is Darwin, by the way, because of the whole evolution and the idea of survival. Correct. But I just want to say that in our crazy movie business, when people are so down on it and saying, oh, it's a contraction, and I keep saying, there's so much opportunity. Well, change is part of it. You have to adapt to the new world order is all. And if you don't want to do that, you're going to be left behind. If you're going to do it, you're going to survive and you're going to thrive.

Spring Aspers (24:27):

Well, also, it's like you're in entertainment. People are shocked that things change. And if that was the case that things were stagnant, we would still have silent movies. Everything about what we do is change always.

Kevin Goetz (24:39):

But even just the way in which, and the kind of content you may change, to your point, the platform, but you're not changing the fact that people love music. People love stories, people love film, and they're going to continue to do so. We just have to, as you said, be adaptable. That's beautiful.

Spring Aspers (25:00):

Yeah. And I look at it like exactly what you just said. I'm like, if you sort of boil it down to the essence, at no time are people never going to listen to music and have entertainment, visual entertainment. It's always going to be.

Kevin Goetz (25:12):

When there's a particular artist that you want to go after to say, write a theme song. Have you ever done that, first of all?

Spring Aspers (25:19):

Yeah.

Kevin Goetz (25:20):

Can you give me an example?

Spring Aspers (25:22):

“Sunflower.”

Kevin Goetz (25:23):

Ah, on?

Spring Aspers (25:25):

Into the Spider-Verse, the first Spider-Verse.

Kevin Goetz (25:27):

And did you know that you were going after a theme song?

Spring Aspers (25:32):

Yes.

Kevin Goetz (25:32):

You did. You were given that directive by the producers.

Spring Aspers (25:37):

It's not that it's a directive, it's just what you innately know, a story about a teenager from Brooklyn needs. It's just something that helps.

Kevin Goetz (25:49):

But that was played over the end credits?

Spring Aspers (25:51):

And sung in the movie.

Kevin Goetz (25:53):

And sung in the movie.

Spring Aspers (25:54):

Yeah.

Kevin Goetz (25:55):

And how'd you go about it? Did you? No. Did you listen to a million demos or did you?

Spring Aspers (26:02):

I was working with the record label and an incredible executive, Dana Sano, and we were trying to tackle this, what would the sound of Miles Morales be? The lead character in the movie. And there was a huge responsibility, pun intended, with Spider-Verse. But this was the first time that Miles was coming to life in a theatrical format. And it's the first time that you had Miles who’s African-American and Puerto Rican represented, and what would he be listening to? And he was cool and sweet and all of these wonderful things, truly like a superhero blossoming. And so music, if done well for a film, should remind you of the heart of that story when you're not in front of the film. That is true. So I don't look at things for marketing. Obviously marketing is hugely important because you're trying to get people into the movie, but I come from a very grounded, organic place of Does that make you feel like Miles?

Kevin Goetz (27:09):

Wow. Honestly, this is so educational for me because I had not realized the extent to which you're an artist.

Spring Aspers (27:20):

I try. I think the artists are the artists, but I think I call myself sometimes, I always laugh. I've said this recently, I'm like the Tinder of music.

Kevin Goetz (27:27):

You mean swipe?

Spring Aspers (27:28):

Yeah.

Kevin Goetz (27:29):

Swipe, swipe.

Spring Aspers (27:29):

I'm a matchmaker.

Kevin Goetz (27:31):

So where do you find emerging artists? I can picture the old A and R, I was going to say guys, a lot of 'em were out at clubs at night, underground stuff, mix tapes that are self-produced. Where do you get that discovery? First of all, do you have people that you send out? Do you work? Do you do it yourself? How do you do that? How do you curate that?

Spring Aspers (27:57):

I really just stay a fan. I go to shows. I have a lot of music.

Kevin Goetz (28:00):

What kind of shows do you go to?

Spring Aspers (28:02):

I mean, I go to all kinds. It just depends on what I'm interested in. I'm just trying to think of what I've seen recently. I've seen so many good shows.

Kevin Goetz (28:09):

Will you go to a band, like a new band that's playing? You've heard they're really good up on Sunset or something?

Spring Aspers (28:15):

Yeah, once in a while. I mean, look, there's not a lot of bands right now. If you look at the history of what bands are, on what's happened in the past decade or so.

Kevin Goetz (28:25):

Most are solo artists?

Spring Aspers (28:26):

Yeah, you're not seeing a lot of bands, which I would like to see more bands.

Kevin Goetz (28:29):

Why do you think that is? That's very interesting. I didn't realize that.

Spring Aspers (28:32):

Probably technology progression is probably part of it. So where I pull music from is a variety of places. There's incredible people who pitch music to me. There's artists that I know that I just talk to. I have an amazing 16-year-old son, Henry, who's a huge music head, and we're always sharing stuff and swapping things. I think that it's no different than anybody out there if you're a seeker, but you're just a fan.

Kevin Goetz (29:00):

Do you ever geek out where you'll call an artist up or call the label and say, I'd like to have a general with this artist because I'm so impressed with their work.

Spring Aspers (29:09):

I can do that. I tend to not like to waste time unless I have something to offer them. I don't think artists need to perform for me.

Kevin Goetz (29:17):

Well said. Well said.

Spring Aspers (29:18):

I feel like it's my job to bring opportunity. If I'm doing my job well, I am there fighting for the artists. I think that is the most important drive for me.

Kevin Goetz (29:28):

What's the best part of your job?

Spring Aspers (29:31):

Having a feeling and an instinct and getting to realize it. Saying to somebody, I've heard this song, this is really good. I feel it, it fits it. And people go, yeah, I hear it. And then the world hears it. And there is nothing more addictive than making a movie that globally people love. It is the most a addicting thing, and it is very powerful. And I correlated a lot to being in concerts.

Kevin Goetz (30:03):

I was just going to say, when I hear you say that, I see a Barry Manilow or a Billy Joel or an Elton John who are performing music that every single person knows on the planet. They know these songs and they came from the mind, the heart, the soul of these artists.

Spring Aspers (30:22):

There's energy there. It's the same way that you're in a forest. 

Kevin Goetz (30:25):

What a fine trip that must be though.

Spring Aspers (30:26):

You're in a forest and there's trees and there's energy. It's like there's energy that cannot be replaced by tech. The natural world has an energy, and when you're in a movie theater and you're laughing or you're scared or you're crying like in It Ends with Us, I weep out of beauty and grace and sadness. I weep in that movie. There's nothing that can replace you being around a group of humans experiencing that. And the same as in a concert. You can see something online, but it's never going to be the same as when you're singing along in a concert with other human beings. You cannot replace that. And I say a lot, the movie going experience to me, I use this analogy, people have heard me say it, but I really believe it is. Theatricality is a lot like vinyl. It's something tangible. Vinyl's been around. It's an old model. It's been around forever, yet it's still here. It's still thriving because you can touch it and you can share it.

Kevin Goetz (31:23):

Except I miss that sound. Do you know that sound that I'm talking about when you put it on?

Spring Aspers (31:28):

I have it. I listen to vinyl every day.

Kevin Goetz (31:30):

I almost get emotional.

Spring Aspers (31:31):

Yeah. I buy vinyl all the time.

Kevin Goetz (31:33):

Oh my God.

Spring Aspers (31:34):

I have Glass Animals vinyl and Metro and Adele. And I mean, I love it.

Kevin Goetz (31:38):

I love it.

Spring Aspers (31:38):

Tons of it.

Kevin Goetz (31:39):

Let me ask you, what's the most difficult part of your job? Truly.

Spring Aspers (31:45):

Just that music comes. Lastly, you try to get it in earlier, but you have this huge machine of a movie and music is always the icing on the cake, it can be part of the DNA. Absolutely.

Kevin Goetz (31:57):

You would like it more to be part of the DNA.

Spring Aspers (31:59):

I just think it's innately the part of the process that there's too many other things. It is part of the DNA, and we do things early and we try to be very…

Kevin Goetz (32:06):

Why is that the most difficult part of your job? Then because you're scurrying or rushing to get shit done.

Spring Aspers (32:12):

Yeah, there's just deadlines. So the music world does not operate by the deadlines unless you're a composer. But I'm talking about artists. They do not operate by the deadlines that a film this giant beast of a movie does.

Kevin Goetz (32:27):

What's your best get, the thing that you are so proud that you landed this artist?

Spring Aspers (32:32):

The artist that's unsigned that I've helped pay their rent. That is true. You mean that? I mean that.

Kevin Goetz (32:39):

Damn girl. I mean, that's fantastic.

Spring Aspers (32:43):

Because people should go into music as a career and those are the people that it has the most impact. Obviously, ook, if you're doing soundtracks in general, your life's pretty positive. You're bringing gifts, people, you want to do it. Do you not want to do it?

Kevin Goetz (32:57):

Totally fair.

Spring Aspers (32:57):

It's just a nice world generally. But when you hear from somebody and go, that use changed things for me, that to me is the best function because it's discovery. And also I would add it's discovery and it's also sustaining that music ecosystem of pick up that guitar, pick up that violin, write that song down, be a poet. But also to me, what I love about it is when you have a major artist, and I love this about a number of songs that I've done, you allow that artist, that's a huge artist that people can kind of put into a lane. They're known for a thing and soundtracks allow them to stretch that. So an artist, a massive artist, can play in something that they didn't get to necessarily do. There's a reason for that to be.

Kevin Goetz (33:52):

What do you think of AI and the fact that AI is so prominent? Does it scare you, make you nervous?

Spring Aspers (33:58):

I think we should be rightfully afraid because that's just a healthy dose of any tech.

Kevin Goetz (34:02):

How do you think it'll have its biggest impact?

Spring Aspers (34:04):

I actually think AI can be super cool and really interesting, and I think we should have a wariness of it just to make sure that, but I think AI will have its biggest impact. I mean, I think it can be a useful tool. I mean, AI is used in music.

Kevin Goetz (34:18):

I know, but how is it used right now?

Spring Aspers (34:20):

I mean, I think artists would have to kind of tell you specifically, but I think that there's certain kind of sequencing and things that people do and stuff like that.

Kevin Goetz (34:26):

But they can also rip off a voice which has been done.

Spring Aspers (34:31):

There's all of that, right? There's all of that. I will remain kind of retro thinking. It's just a philosophy of how I live my life. I will always believe that you can't really replace the human piece. I think that there'll be some bad actors.

Kevin Goetz (34:47):

I'm with you, by the way,

Spring Aspers (34:48):

But I just think that there's a feel to it, a creativity. So yes, I think AI is an important tool and I think it's here regardless. So we just better get our heads around it.

Kevin Goetz (34:58):

Be adaptable.

Spring Aspers (34:59):

Be adaptable. But I do think we should have some healthy caution, probably too late for too much caution. But I think ultimately what I chalk it up to is I'm not really afraid and I just don't think you can replace that human energy. I think there's something to it that's intangible that we feel.

Kevin Goetz (35:20):

Spring, it has been such a pleasure to get to know you better. I'm so glad you came in here. I consider myself as an audience advocate, and you're certainly an artist advocate, certainly in the music space, and we need you and we, and I appreciate you and thank you so much for joining me here today.

Spring Aspers (35:41):

It's been a treat and it's been very fun chatting with you. And I think what I appreciate so much about what you do and even in this conversation is that you're a treasure hunter. I've seen you at work and you're always trying to pull out the treasure of the storytelling. And I can see you doing that on your podcast is you're trying to bring those pearls to light. And that is hopefully a helpful thing to people who want to go into what we do because they should.

Kevin Goetz (36:12):

Well, thank you so much. To our listeners, I hope you enjoyed our interview today. For more filmmaking and audience testing stories, I invite you to check out my book Audiencology at Amazon or through my website at KevinGoetz360.com. You can also follow me on my social media. Next time on Don't Kill the Messenger, I'll welcome producer and former executive at 20th Century Fox, Susan Cartsonis. Until then, I'm Kevin Goetz, and to you, our listeners, I appreciate you being part of the movie-making process. Your opinions matter.

Host: Kevin Goetz
Guest: Spring Aspers
Producer: Kari Campano
Writers: Kevin Goetz, Darlene Hayman, and Kari Campano
Audio Engineer: Gary Forbes (DG Entertainment)