Podcast: Don't Kill the Messenger with Movie Research Expert Kevin Goetz
Guest: Veteran Producer & Studio Executive, Gary Lucchesi
Interview Transcript:

Announcer (00:02):

There's a little-known part of Hollywood that most people are not aware of, known as the audience test preview. The book Audienceology reveals this for the first time. Our podcast series, Don't Kill the Messenger, brings this book to life, taking a peek behind the curtain. And now join author and entertainment research expert, Kevin Goetz.

Kevin Goetz (00:23):

While preparing for today's interview, I came across a powerful quote from my guest. He said, I may be paraphrasing here, if you're looking for love in this business, go home. I have to agree with this. Chasing attention or empty accolades won't bring fulfillment. Instead, it's passion and tenacity that truly matter in Hollywood, and those qualities are what lead to lasting success and personal reward. Today, I'm excited to welcome an extremely passionate, tenacious, and sharp businessman in the entertainment industry, Gary Lucchesi. Gary has journeyed through the years from being a top agent to an astute studio executive to a successful producer. He's actually produced over 60 feature films, including Million Dollar Baby, Primal Fear, Runaway Bride, and the Age of Adaline, just to name a few. Gary, thank you so much for joining me today.

Gary Lucchesi (01:21):

Are you kidding? Thank you, Kevin.

Kevin Goetz (01:23):

You and I truly are personal friends. I'm invested in your family. Neil and I consider you first and foremost a part of our chosen family.

Gary Lucchesi (01:31):

Thank you. And we go back a long way, Kevin. We kind of grew up in Hollywood together. I don't think it's 40 years, but it's certainly 35 years.

Kevin Goetz (01:38):

It's 38.

Gary Lucchesi (01:39):

38 years. Okay.

Kevin Goetz (01:40):

It's 38 years. I want to say that. Two very funny things. First of all, call out to Debbie, your beautiful wife, who is your college sweetheart, and of course, both Sophia and Allegra, who are treasures. Thank you. They're just incredible women, independent thinkers, talented. I love those gals. The funny thing I wanted to bring up is when I was a working actor and I first got to Hollywood, I was still a hyphenate, so I was doing focus groups, but you had worked as an executive in a movie called Permanent Record, and I guess through research, you guys were going to do a commercial promoting the movie that were real teens discussing suicide, which was the theme of the movie. And what they did is hired actors to play the kids talking about suicide. And I was cast. I was cast as one of those young people, and you came up to me the next screening. You're like, are you an actor? You're in this Permanent Record spot?

Gary Lucchesi (02:45):

I just thought, right. That's right. I remember that. Now that you mentioned it, I do remember that.

Kevin Goetz (02:50):

That was crazy. And that was 38 years.

Gary Lucchesi (02:52):

Because you were very impressive as a person who did the focus groups. My recollection, and look, this is an assessment that comes from some experience, is that in those early days of focus groups, you worked for a gentleman by the name of Joe Ferrell. And Joe was excellent at doing the focus groups, but Joe could be your father. His demographic was 25, 30 years older than you, and we had a number of movies that appealed to younger people. And Joe, trying to get answers out of people that were of a different generation was difficult. You, on the other hand, were able to connect with the participants in the focus group. There's normally 20. You were able to really connect with them and ask them questions that were very conversational and very logical and very prescient. So immediately I would say to the people, I was head of production at Paramount at that time, so I did have some power. I'd say, we don't need Joe for this one. We need Kevin.

Kevin Goetz (03:48):

And you reported to Ned Tanen at that time, right?

Gary Lucchesi (03:50):

Yes. Ned Tannon initially. Yeah. Then Sid Ganis.

Kevin Goetz (03:52):

And then Sid. But you started as an agent and at William Morris.

Gary Lucchesi (03:57):

William Morris, right.

Kevin Goetz (03:58):

And you handled people like Michelle Pfeiffer and Kevin Costner.

Gary Lucchesi (04:00):

Yes.

Kevin Goetz (04:01):

I want to talk about how that started, but let's go back to Cow Hollow. Right?

Gary Lucchesi (04:04):

Oh, the San Francisco.

Kevin Goetz (04:06):

Yeah. So Gary's production company has been called Cow Hollow, and I knew that's where he came from. That's an area in San Francisco.

Gary Lucchesi (04:13):

It's the Marina district of San Francisco. It's a little bit above the Marina District.

Kevin Goetz (04:16):

What was it like a young Gary dreaming of being in show business?

Gary Lucchesi (04:19):

He didn't know. I couldn't even imagine it. What did you imagine? I was thinking advertising or law.

Kevin Goetz (04:25):

Were you going to get a law degree?

Gary Lucchesi (04:27):

Yes, I was. And by the way, I think I would've been a good lawyer. I didn't have the desire to go to school for three more years when I graduated from UCLA. Were you a decent student in high school? I was an A student in college. I was a B plus student.

Kevin Goetz (04:38):

Then you lied on your resume.

Gary Lucchesi (04:40):

What was it?

Kevin Goetz (04:41):

You said you knew David Geffen?

Gary Lucchesi (04:42):

Oh, well, a true story is that I'm in UCLA. That was called the Trimester System. There were three semesters each year, and I was in the second semester of my senior year. So it meant I had another six months to graduation. And I was taking a class called the Speeches of Abraham Lincoln. And in that class, there were a couple of students that were saying, there's a course that David Geffen is teaching next period, and he's brought in Bob Dylan or Captains of the Industry or something like that. So I thought, well, and I knew who David Geffen was because in those days he had a record company called Asylum Records, which had the Eagles, Linda Ronstadt, Joni Mitchell, Jackson Brown.

Kevin Goetz (05:17):

A few up and comers.

Gary Lucchesi (05:19):

Well, the folk rock scene was big in the mid to late seventies. So I knew who David Geffen was. So I sat in the class and he brought in the Captains of Industry. He brought in Steve Ross, who was chairman of Warner Communications. He brought in Net Tanen who was head of production at the Universal. He brought in Sid Scheinberg, his boss who ran all of Universal. He brought in Mike Voy, Sue Manger, who was a powerful agent. He brought in a lot of senior executives. And at the end, I would've loved to have been in that. It was an interesting class, but I was auditing it. I wasn't enrolled in it. And at the end of the class, he went around and pointed to various students. He said, whatcha going to do with this class? What has this class taught you? And everybody was a television major, and they were saying, well, I'm going to try to be a director.

(06:00):

I'm going to be an actor. I'm going to do this. I'm going to do that. And I said, where do you go if you want to get into the business side of entertainment? And he said, very simple. Do what I did, apply to a job at the William Morris Agency and start off in the mail room and work your way up. And he said, I did it. Michael Ovitz did it. Bernie Brillstein did it. Irwin Winkler did it. So he names all these names, which I didn't know who they were, but I kind of learned who they were later. So I thought, okay, that's what I'm going to do. So I graduated from UCLA and I put an application into William Morris on the application. It said, who do you know in the entertainment business? I knew absolutely no one. So I wrote David Geffen. You did know.

(06:35):

Well, I didn't know him. He didn't Not, well, no, not well, but whatever. That was my one person that I kind of knew, I guess. And then for the next three or four weeks waiting for something to return, I applied to all these jobs I applied to at record companies because I liked music. So I applied at Capital Records, at Warner Brothers records at this record. And then I applied at CBS records, and they sent me to Television City, and they sent me to someplace else. And the next thing you know, I was hired as an usher. So I was hired as an usher, and I went down to academy.

Kevin Goetz (07:06):

You graduated now?

Gary Lucchesi (07:07):

Yeah, I'm graduated. I went down.

Kevin Goetz (07:08):

22 ish.

Gary Lucchesi (07:09):

22. I went to Academy Awards Cloth Year. They gave you a blue blazer and a white shirt and a pair of slacks. And I worked one show, which was a Mary Tyler Moore show. And when I'm working that show, everybody that was an usher was related to somebody. And I thought, Nepo babies, Nepo babies. And I thought, how am I going to compete? And my father was a bread salesman. He drove a bread truck in San Francisco. I'm not connected.

Kevin Goetz (07:32):

Call out to Al.

Gary Lucchesi (07:34):

And your mother, Millie.

Kevin Goetz (07:34):

Yeah. They were great. Loved them. Died at 99 and 95, great people, great people, and loved them.

Gary Lucchesi (07:41):

But the next day I come back and there's a phone call from William Morris. They went and interview. So I went in and I interviewed with the Head of Human Resources, and she said, are you currently working? I said, well, I just got this job as an usher for CBS. She said, that's a very difficult job to get. I said, it might be. I said, but I don't want to work there. She said, why not? Because everybody's related to somebody. He said, you guys have a training program. I'm going to get an equal shot here. Okay, now of course, everybody at William Morris was a nepo baby too, but I didn't know that. But there was a training program and I got into it.

Kevin Goetz (08:11):

Whose desk were you on?

Gary Lucchesi (08:12):

I ended up being on the desk of the head of motion pictures, Stan Kamen was his name, who was the biggest agent in Hollywood at that time. And it was like clerking for this chief justice of the Supreme Court.

Kevin Goetz (08:22):

What did you learn from Stan?

*Gary Lucchesi (08:23):

The most important thing that I learned was not to be afraid. For the first four or five months working for him, I would get to the office two hours ahead of time. I was terrified. I felt like I was way in over my head and I was afraid. And one morning I called up my mother and I said, I called my mother, Millie. For whatever reason, I didn't call her mom. I called her Millie. I said, Millie, I said, I think I'm going to get an ulcer. I said, this job is just killing me. She said, Gary, you're anticipating the worst. The worst will probably not happen. And I thought, maybe I'm anticipating the worst. So from that moment on, I took a different approach to being an agent trainee. And I said this to this woman, JJ Harris, who was my assistant when I was an agent who ended up representing Kevin Costner for years.

(09:08):

But I said to JJ, I said, here's what you have to do. I said, you have to pretend you're in a red Ferrari and you've got goggles on, and you're going as fast as you possibly can, and that's the job. So from that point on, I basically attacked my work. I looked at every day as an incredible challenge. Great. And there were days that were extraordinary. There were days where, I mean, everyone's deceased now, but there was a movie called Brubaker. Oh my God. Robert Redford. Prison movie. Yeah, prison movie. Stan Kamen has just signed Robert Redford. He's representing Robert Redford. And about two or three weeks into production, we get a telephone call because Stan also represented the director, Bob Rafelson, who was a pretty famous director of friend of Jack Nicholson's and a pretty famous director, Robert Town. Robert Town. And Rafelson got into a fight with the 20th century Fox executive and hit him.

(09:59):

Okay, so Rafelson. And the next thing you know, you've got Alan Ladd and Paula Weinstein, big, big people from Fox calling and saying, Stan, we got to fire the guy. So they have to fire Rafelston. And he just attacked the executive, one of their execs. Okay, so we're getting these phone calls. Stan represents Redford, the director he also represents, just punched out. The studio executive is getting fired and all hell is breaking loose. And then we went to the next door office. His name was Lenny Shan, who represented Clint Eastwood, but he also represented Stu Rosenberg, and he suggested Stuart Rosenberg. And the next thing you know, we've got Stuart Rosenberg on a plane to Vegas with Stan, and they were working things out with Redford. Redford approves him, and then they go ahead and make the movie. But I remember I got a phone call in the middle of the night that night from Rafelson's assistant, and she called me up at home.

(10:45):

I lived in this little apartment with my wife at the time, Debbie, whatever year it was. And it's like three o'clock in the morning. She calls me up, she says, Gary, do you know where Stan is? I said, it's three o'clock in the morning. How the hell am I going to know where he is? She said, they fired Bob. I said, oh, that's too bad. What you supposed to say? And in the middle of all of it, that day, I remember we got a phone call from Paul Newman who Stan didn't represent, and Paul Newman was on an Irwin Allen movie with William Holden. So I walk into Stan's office, I said, it's Paul Newman saying he's on the phone. Stan kind of looks at me and he picks up the telephone. He says, hi, Paul. And Paul says, Stan, I got to call you because I'm here with Holden, and he's not good on the set. He's drinking and he's all fucked up.

Kevin Goetz (11:25):

Oh, Jesus.

Gary Lucchesi (11:25):

And Stan said, thank you for calling. I'll get somebody over there right away. Appreciate it. And we sent an agent over there right away to deal with Holden, but that was in the middle of this Bob Rafelson thing. I mean, these were crazy. These were names where you'd come home at night and you'd say, holy shit, this was really a day.

Kevin Goetz (11:40):

Oh man, the greatest. But Stan, when you finally took that different philosophical approach of like, I'm not going to be afraid. So suddenly did Stan notice?

Gary Lucchesi (11:51):

Oh, yeah. And we worked together really well. At a certain point, did he promote you to Oh, yeah. Yeah.

Kevin Goetz (11:56):

He's the one that promoted you?

Gary Lucchesi (11:57):

Yeah, he promoted me. And the story of him promoting me as a funny one, which is he was friendly with Sue Mengers, who was his rival. Where was Sue? Sue was at ICM, and they talked to each other. They'd have dinner, they'd laugh, probably do drugs together, and they'd have a good time. 

Kevin Goetz (12:12):

The two of them were the most significant.

Gary Lucchesi (12:14):

Most significant agents.

Kevin Goetz (12:14):

Right.

Gary Lucchesi (12:15):

Stan represented Redford and Warren Beatty and Pacino, Pakula and Jewison, and Fred Zim, all these people. And Sue represented Barbara Streisand and a number of another top directors, and they were both close to Bob Evans. So one day Stan says, get Sue on the phone. So I call her office and the assistant answers. I said, I've got Stan for Sue Mengers. She said, ah, she's not here. I said, where is she? She said, she's in Las Vegas. I said, okay, have her call when she gets back. So I put down the phone, I think to myself, Sue’s in Las Vegas, who she in Las Vegas to see, right? So we used to have this sheet that the personal appearance department would send to all the agents, and I said to somebody, I said, let's get this sheet from the Personal Appearance department. And they hand it to me, and I look at it and it says, Barry Manilow. Okay. Now, we knew Barry Manilow at the time was the biggest earner in the entire William Morris agency. He made about 20 million a year. 

Kevin Goetz (13:08):

And this was in the seventies, right?

Gary Lucchesi (13:09):

Yes, late seventies. So I walk into Stan's office and I said, I left word for Sue. Her assistant said, she's in Las Vegas. Look who's in Las Vegas. And I point to this thing, he looks at me and he says, that's where she is. She's there because Barry Manilow was always looking for a movie career, and it was a difficult thing to pull off, right? So the next day, Sue Mengers calls back, and she gets on the phone and Stan says to her, how's Barry? And she says, motherfucker, she gets pissed off. How the hell did, how did you, did she sign him? No. No. She didn't sign. Did Stan sign? No. He was a client of William Morris. Barry was a client of William Morris. She was trying to poach him. She was trying to poach him.

Kevin Goetz (13:50):

Yeah. Did Barry ever get a film?

Gary Lucchesi (13:52):

No, I didn't get him a film.

Kevin Goetz (13:54):

So Gary, how did you make the transition into being an executive?

Gary Lucchesi (13:58):

It was sort of an interesting internal conversation with myself. I had been an agent for four or five years. I represented really good clients. William Morris was great to me. They loaned me money to buy a house. I mean, they were.

Kevin Goetz (14:10):

How long were you at?

Gary Lucchesi (14:12):

I was there until 84, and I started in 77. So I was there seven years. Six, seven years.

Kevin Goetz (14:18):

Did you actually sign Michelle Pfeiffer? And did you?

Gary Lucchesi (14:21):

Yes. Well, Michelle Pfeiffer was at another agency, her boyfriend at the time, Peter Horton was represented by William Morris.

Kevin Goetz (14:26):

Horton of 30 something?

Gary Lucchesi (14:27):

Yeah. And my wife and I took Michelle and Peter out to dinner, and we later went back to her house, and my wife and Peter played piano, and I talked to Michelle Pfeifer and signed her. And then on Kevin Costner, my wife was a casting director who was going through the old Academy Players directory and.

Kevin Goetz (14:43):

Academy Players Directory, which is a big book of pictures.

Gary Lucchesi (14:44):

And her boss was this woman, Wallis Nicita, who was a very good casting director.

Kevin Goetz (14:50):

And Rick's first wife who was just a guest.

*Gary Lucchesi (14:52):

Oh, Rick was just a guest. Yeah, Rick and Paula. That was great. They're great. I saw them last week. So Wally used to say to my wife, she said, bring in some people from the Academy players directory. So my wife goes through it, she sees this picture of Kevin Costner, she brings them in. So the next thing you know, Kevin and Wallis are chatting for like an hour, and he comes out and Wallis says he doesn't have an agent. He's represented by Wilhelmina, which was a modeling agency. He was working at Raleigh Studios in the grip department. And my wife called me up and she said, Wallis was just with this guy that she really liked. His name's Kevin Costner. He's looking for an agent. I said, send him over. So Kevin comes over to William Morris. I'm a young agent. You weren't supposed to sign unknowns at the time. But I liked him. And he was my age. He was my kind of guy. We were both working class kids, both ambitious. I felt, and I still feel that he had an affable movie star dynamic presence. It's undefinable really, because it's not necessarily related to beauty, it's just related to confidence maybe. And charisma. Charisma, an it factor. So I signed him. And then…

Kevin Goetz (15:57):

Did you get shit for it?

Gary Lucchesi (15:58):

Well, here's the thing. So what I did is that I called up every casting director in town. I said, Wallis Nicita just found somebody. Do you want to meet him? So everybody wants to meet him. So they all met him. And then he gets this job on this movie called Fandango, which was produced by Steven Spielberg and directed by Kevin Reynolds. And Amblin's going to finance it. And I remember that there was a day where an agent walked into a staff meeting and she said, did you hear this is young actor by the name of Kevin Costner who just got this movie, Fandango. We ought to sign him. And I said, I've already signed him. She said, you're not supposed to sign an unknown. And I said, well, what do you want me to do? Give him back? As my wife would say to me at the time, she said, you've never even seen him act and you just sold him for $50,000. I said, that's true. That launched his career.

Kevin Goetz (16:40):

Does he acknowledge that?

Gary Lucchesi (16:41):

Oh, sure. Kevin is somebody that I will like and admire to the day I die.

Kevin Goetz (16:46):

I saw him.

Gary Lucchesi (16:46):

We're doing a…

Kevin Goetz (16:48):

Have you done a picture?

Gary Lucchesi (16:48):

Yeah. Well, we never did a picture, but we just produced.

Kevin Goetz (16:50):

How could you have never done a movie together with all the movies you've done?

Gary Lucchesi (16:52):

Because the one movie that we should have done together, I wasn't running the studio. I was going to do Bull Durham when I was running Paramount. It was a project that I absolutely loved. I loved Ron Shelton. There was a producer by the name of Tom Mount that was the producer on it. And Tom and Ned Tanen, who was my boss at the time, did not have a good relationship. Tom used to work for Ned at Universal. At the end of the day, Ned decided that he didn't want to make a movie with Tom Mount. So we lost that.

Kevin Goetz (17:18):

You put in turnaround.

Gary Lucchesi (17:19):

Universal took it, and they made it. And then we were also involved with Robin Hood, but at that time, Frank Mancuso didn't believe in Robin Hood. I thought that Robin Hood was a really good script. We had it, and that was with Kevin as well. And I just couldn't get it pushed over the end line. But we just did a project, an eight hour for a Paramount Plus called the Grey House that Kevin's company produced. But I saw him before we started shooting, and it was great to see him.

Kevin Goetz (17:45):

That's wonderful. So Paramount under your watch, what are you most proud of producing there, or overseeing, I should say?

Gary Lucchesi (17:51):

Well, there were so many good movies. Hunt for Red, October was one of the ones that I really had a hand in. We had a situation where.

Kevin Goetz (17:59):

It was Bob.

Gary Lucchesi (18:01):

Bob Rehme, and Mace Neufeld producedit.

Kevin Goetz (18:03):

Yeah.

Gary Lucchesi (18:03):

And John McTiernan was the director. There was a moment in time when we wanted to do a polish for Sean Connery and McTiernan came into my office and we've got Sean Connery on the phone, and McTiernan is making these writer suggestions to Connery, and Connery is rejecting all of them. And I handed McTiernan a piece of paper that said John Milius on it. I knew that Milius had worked with Sean Connery once before, but McTiernan wasn't wild about John Milius because Milius is a larger than life character. But I wrote it on a piece of paper and Sean Connery rejects everybody. And then finally, McTiernan says, what about John Milius? Sean Connery says, that's a wonderful idea.

Kevin Goetz (18:44):

So he got John, that's your brilliance, Gary, hold on. I just want to say it for the listeners. I've worked with Gary as a producer. We both produced a movie that was nominated for three Emmys and won one called Wild Iris. And we got to work in that capacity as well. And you were the guy that I would call it was kind of my baby that I nurtured from the beginning of that as a play and then ultimately made it to a movie. But you would be the guy I would call and say for the heavy lifting, like you got us Laura Linney, because you knew how to do that.

*Gary Lucchesi (19:15):

Well, but here's the other thing. I'll use a phrase that I think that you'll probably lean onto. I think that what I try to do is lateral thinking. In other words, you have a screenplay and you say to yourself, okay, who could be the right person to do it? Who are the prototypes? What is the lateral thinking that leads you to Laura Linney? In other words, you have this relationship that you actually haven't sought out, but that is actually the perfect person for this part.

Kevin Goetz (19:44):

Well, Shirley MacLaine recommended, if I'm not mistaken, tell me if I'm right about this. We gave her a bunch of actresses, and Laura was on the list, which you came up with. And part of this is probably your brilliance. You knew that she'd reject several of them. She said, well, who could be a sparring partner with me?

Gary Lucchesi (20:00):

That's right.

Kevin Goetz (20:00):

Who could hold their own with me? Oh, without question. And Laura was certainly that person.

Gary Lucchesi (20:04):

And not known to everybody, but I knew her because she was in Primal Fear.

Kevin Goetz (20:09):

Well, exactly. At that point, I think she had done Tales of the City, tales of the city, the Armisted Maupin thing. Shirley MacLaine ended up dropping out two weeks before production. And the dear and fabulous may she rest in peace, Gena Rowlands, took over and got an spectacular, spectacular. But I want to also say that one of your brilliant gifts is I could have, and I've done this over the years, I've called you up and said, Gary, I've got a business dilemma, or I've got an issue here. And the way you approach a problem is exactly that. You look at it and you say, how do we get there? And then what are your options? One, two, and three? And it's kind of what Millie said to you. It's like, just because don't go to that worst case scenario. It's probably going to go this way. You really have a gift for that.

Gary Lucchesi (20:57):

Well, I don't know, it's just the way my mind works. But I think the lateral thinking helps you find solutions.

Kevin Goetz (21:03):

But there's a logic to you.

Gary Lucchesi (21:04):

Yeah, of course. By the way, lateral means it's a consistent ground.

Kevin Goetz (21:06):

You really are so good at that. And Gary doesn't even know this because behind his head is rolling one sheets and I've just watched 20 movies, and I'm going, he did that. I did that. I worked on that with him. But by the way, we missed a couple of movies like Fatal Attraction at the studio.

*Gary Lucchesi (21:25):

Well, Fatal Attraction is one of the great focus group stories you had asked me about that Fatal Attraction is one of the most famous, because we had this movie that was brilliant, but it ended in a tragic way. It ends with Glenn Close committing suicide to Madame Butterfly, and then Michael Douglas getting arrested, and he walks away with the police, and you're thinking you've got a movie that the audience is a bummer, riveted to. And then there's a bummer ending.

Kevin Goetz (21:49):

Let's set it up a little bit better, where right before the third act turn, if you stopped the movie, you would've received 95%. I know 95% in the top two boxes.

Gary Lucchesi (21:59):

That's right. And then at the end, it was just a nightmare. I was sitting next to Sherry Lansing, she grabs my arm. You could just see the audience deflate.

Kevin Goetz (22:09):

She was the producer on the, he was the producer with Stanley.

Gary Lucchesi (22:11):

Stanley liked the Madam Butterfly ending. And Sherry was a little more practical, I think. And then Ned Tanen, who was running the studio said, we won't release the movie unless you change the ending. So it was then a question of how are you going to change it? And the focus group tells you what the problem is.

Kevin Goetz (22:24):

But also, Michael Douglas was on board. Adrian Line was not, nor was Glenn Close.

Gary Lucchesi (22:30):

Well, they initially weren't. And then Ned said, we won't release the movie. And then everybody got on board. The next thing that was a little bit of an interesting finesse was, well, Michael Douglas is the star of the movie. He's the one that's got to kill Glenn Close. That was the logical deduction. And then Adrian had this notion of doing the Diabolique ending from the famous French film. And then there was a conversation, which I was definitely a part of, which is, what about Anne Archer killing her?

Kevin Goetz (22:57):

You’re falling short of saying it was your idea.

Gary Lucchesi (22:59):

I think that others would probably say it was their idea, but I was definitely part of thinking, why not the wife who has been harmed, but at the same time, she views it as her goal to keep this family together. So killing Glenn Close was part of that. It made perfect sense.

Kevin Goetz (23:16):

Well, also, the way that it was done was not just Glenn Close killing.

Gary Lucchesi (23:20):

Right.

Kevin Goetz (23:21):

You actually got the best of both worlds.

Gary Lucchesi (23:22):

And here's probably what happened, Kevin, is that somebody said, what about Anne Archer? And my lateral thinking said, it should be her, because her job would've been to keep the family together. I think I probably saw the idea, but I pushed it over that way.

Kevin Goetz (23:39):

And I know the movie's old enough to talk about without saying spoiler alert. But in the new ending, of course, that was reshot, was Michael Douglas thinking he killed Glenn Close. So you got your justice in vengeance there. We knew that he was determined. He had this woman out of his life. He thought he succeeded. She comes out of the bathtub, right?

Gary Lucchesi (24:01):

Right.

Kevin Goetz (24:01):

Wielding a knife and Anne Archer's in the doorway with a gun.

Gary Lucchesi (24:07):

Boom, boom, boom. The audience goes

Kevin Goetz (24:10):

Nuts. It was like a wave.

Gary Lucchesi (24:11):

Yeah, it was a wave. And the scores and scores, and then we test went up 20 points, and then we tested both versions back to back. And it was just no question.

*Kevin Goetz (24:19):

The result of that was not just that you made a better movie, but there was millions and millions, tens of millions of dollars that were made because of that change.

*Gary Lucchesi (24:29):

And the other movie. Because when you had mentioned to me last night, can you think of any interesting stories? The one that was, I think one of the greatest saves ever. We did this movie called Dead Again, that starred Kenneth Branagh and Emma Thompson and Andy Garcia. It was a mystery. Kenneth Branagh directed it. Lindsey Duran was the producer of it with Sidney Pollock. She was Mirage Films, and the movie was, it had flashbacks in it. And the flashbacks were very, very violent scenes that were taking place in sort of white sheets and clothes lines and things like that. Okay, so we previewed the movie. The movie scores like 38. It's a disaster. They all showed up to see a mystery, and it became like, is this a horror film or is this a mystery? They didn't want to see a horror film. It really wasn't a horror film.

(25:23):

It was a feathered fish. And I remember going home that night, and I think I ate a quarter of ice cream because I was just so upset. And we got the focus group back and everyone said, it's a feathered fish. And the next day, Sidney Pollock calls me up on the telephone. He says, I got an idea. And I said, well, anything is good. What's the idea? He said, what if we did the flashbacks we turned them black and white. We turned half the movie into a black and white film. I said, that's a pretty good idea. He said, radical, the radical. The only problem is Gary. He said, we're using the negative. We've got to develop the negative in black and white. So yeah, there's some B roll, but we're really making a change. So I went in to see Sid Ganis, and I said, I don't think we've got anything to lose. Let's do it. And it was, again, part of what I do is convince people to do things at times. So he said, okay, let's do it. So we change half the movie into black and white. Go and preview the same movie. Of course, score is like 89, the same movie.

Kevin Goetz (26:15):

Because people knew how to frame it.

*Gary Lucchesi (26:16):

Right. And people saw the black and white, and they weren't offended by the violence of the film. And by the way, everybody looked beautiful in black and white in the flashback scenes. So it was a way to differentiate the flashback from the modern day story, and it was just a remarkable save. This is what the focus groups can tell you. They don't give you the solution always, but I can certainly tell you where there's a problem, and then it's up to the filmmakers to figure out how to solve it.

Kevin Goetz (26:44):

Well said. Thank you for bringing it up. When we come back, we're going to talk to Gary about his really successful producing career. We'll be back in a moment. Listeners, The Motion Picture Television Fund is a nonprofit charitable organization that supports working and retired members of the entertainment community. This wonderfully run organization offers assistance for living and aging with dignity and purpose in the areas of health and social services, including temporary financial assistance, case management, and residential living, and has been a crucial lifeline to thousands during and beyond the strikes. To learn more, visit mptf.com. Please join me in helping others in our industry during times of need. There are so many ways to offer support and get involved. Thank you. We're back with Gary Lucchesi. Gary, let's get into your producing career. One of the movies I know you're most proud of is Primal Fear. And tell me about how that came to be casting Richard Gere, who you've done, I guess five movies with, you really had quite a, and still do, have a very strong relationship with Richard. What about the Ed Norton of it all? Because that's where the fun story really lies, doesn't it?

Gary Lucchesi (28:13):

Well, Primal Fear was a book that Bill Diehl wrote. We went through a couple of drafts of the screenplay. It wasn't quite working.

Kevin Goetz (28:20):

Was it a book or something?

Gary Lucchesi (28:21):

It was based on a book, a bestselling novel. Originally, John Malkovich was attached to play the Gere character, the defense attorney. Originally, we had bought it for Malkovich who then didn't want to do it at the end of the day, which is a different story. But at a certain point, I called up Steve Zaillian, who was a friend of mine, and I said, you got four weeks to do a little rewrite on this. So Steve did the rewrite and the scenes like the scene at the beginning where they're smoking, you're not supposed to smoke in here, and all of that stuff with Laura Linney and Gere. That was all Zaillian and Zaillian really helped. And then Ann Bitterman came in at the end and she did some of the Edward Norton moments, but then we started casting it, and Robert Benton had come in and done a rewrite on the script, which the studio offered to Richard Gere.

Kevin Goetz (29:01):

My God.

Gary Lucchesi (29:01):

All these writers turned into it.

Kevin Goetz (29:03):

Who got the credit on the?

Gary Lucchesi (29:04):

Well, it ended up being Steve, who's original writer, and Anne Bitterman. And Zaillian didn't try for the credit because he saw the final script, and he said, it's not all mine, but a lot of the movie ended up being him. And of course you directed it was Greg Hoblit, Greg Hoblit, who did a magnificent job. So we had.

Kevin Goetz (29:21):

He done a feature, by the way?

Gary Lucchesi (29:22):

Never. He was from NYPD Blue, LA Law.

Kevin Goetz (29:24):

Big TV director.

Gary Lucchesi (29:25):

And had worked with Laura Linney before. That's how he knew Laura. But at a certain point, we offered Gere the Benton script, and he passed. And I called up Richard, and I said, would you do me a favor? Would you read the Steve Zaillian draft? And Richard was a friend of mine because I put him in Internal Affairs when I was running the studio. And Richard had just done this movie called King David, and his career is in the toilet. And actually, internal Affairs brought him back, and he said, sure.

Kevin Goetz (29:52):

Yeah, he's grateful to you.

Gary Lucchesi (29:53):

Yeah, so I'll read this alien script. He reads the Zaillian script. He loves it. So he calls up Sherry Lansing, says, I won't do the Benton script. I'll do the Zaillian script. Oh, okay. So all of a sudden we've got a movie with Gere. And then there was a negotiation with him, which was clever. They said, we're going to offer you 6 million, but if you say yes, we'll pay you seven. They didn't want to set a precedent of offering Gere a million dollars above his quote, but they said, but if you say yes, we'll pay it to you. So we ended up getting Gere, and then we started casting and we tested actors. Laura Linney came in and tested for the role that she won. She did 18 pages of dialogue that she had memorized brilliantly, and she was fantastic. And so we cast.

Kevin Goetz (30:38):

Julliard trained theater actor.

*Gary Lucchesi (30:39):

Yeah, we cast Laura Linney and then Edward Norton. Deborah Illa was the casting director. We met like 2300 people. And no one could do that turn of going from the sort of southern person of Aaron to the rougher kid, Roy. And it was Edward who did it. But Edward created the stutter, which was not in the novel or in the screenplay. And that was his demarcation. That was the tool that he used to show one character as opposed to the other. And we tested him twice because there was a question of whether he could be menacing enough, but he was brilliant.

Kevin Goetz (31:10):

But wait, wasn't there a discussion of putting Leo DiCaprio or someone?

Gary Lucchesi (31:15):

It was almost that Leonardo DiCaprio's father loved the book, and Leo was the person that we were always imagining doing it with. And we were on a location scout and Holic got a phone call that Leo didn't want to do it. And that was when we opened up the casting. But my point was that had Leo said yes, I think the audience would have anticipated the ending. Whereas with Edward Norton, he was a complete unknown. They had no idea where it was coming from. So I thought at the end of the day, that was a real gift by having an unknown actor play a leading role.

Kevin Goetz (31:50):

What do you remember about the Lincoln Lawyer?

*Gary Lucchesi (31:52):

Lincoln lawyer was passed by a number of actors initially too. We had a young director, but we had a really good script, but it was passed by a bunch of people. And again, it's the lateral thinking of me saying, well, wait a second. Matthew McConaughey has been doing all of these romantic comedies. They're not working for him anymore. Remember he started off in A Time to Kill. He can play an attorney. And it was that sort of lateral thinking that led us to going to Matthew. And then Matthew said, yes.

Kevin Goetz (32:18):

Runaway Bride?

Gary Lucchesi (32:20):

Runaway Bride was Richard and Julia. That was a script that I had developed actually when I was at Paramount for Harrison Ford. And then it didn't end up happening, and then I ended up at Lakeshore with Tom Rosenberg. And that was a situation where the two actors said yes to a lot of money. That was a moment in time where both of the actors were, I think it was 18 to 20 million. They were seduced a little bit by the money. And Gary Marshall's a wonderful filmmaker. There's so many lessons you learn along the way. Gary Marshall, we started off the movie with 114 page script and ended up with the script supervisor turning in a 230 page screenplay. But we didn't go over schedule. What would happen with Gary Marshall is he'd do a scene and he'd say that joke's not working. He'd say, the writer who'd have the writer on it said, come up with another joke. And the writer would hand him a piece of paper. The actors would do another joke.

Kevin Goetz (33:10):

So all these colored pages of the script.

Gary Lucchesi (33:11):

Colored pages were all these jokes.

Kevin Goetz (33:13):

That is hysterical. Million Dollar Baby?

Gary Lucchesi (33:16):

Million Dollar Baby was a script that Al Reddy actually had developed. May he rest in peace. May rest in peace. And it came to us and we really liked it. It was initially sent to us for, think about Robert Benton directing and Sandra Bullock to star and Sandy didn't think Benton was the right director, so it didn't end up happening. So then we thought, okay, let's do it with Paul Haggis as the director who had directed some television but not a feature, and we'll do it low budget. And we thought we had just worked with Hillary Swank, and we thought, okay, Hillary could do it with Haggis. And then what happened was Clint Eastwood, Al gave it to Clint, and Clint said, I'll do it, but I'd have to direct it. And I remember going to see Paul Haggis, and he was on the set of crash, and I had talked to his manager about this before.

(34:04):

I said, would Paul step aside for Clint to direct it? And I said, he'll get sole credit on the screenplay. He'll get a million dollars as a writer. I think this could work for whatever reason. He said, go talk to Paul. So I go to a set of Crash, and I said to Paul, I really wouldn't be having this conversation if it was any other directors besides Clint Eastwood. If it was Steven Spielberg or Martin Scorsese, I wouldn't be having this conversation. But Clint will star in the movie. And I really believe Paul, that the well is very, very deep with you and for you to get sole credit on this movie. And I think there's an Oscar nomination for the movie, and I think with Clint and with Hillary. And at the end of the day, Paul said, I agree, you're right. And by the way, I was right because Crash, he ended up winning two Oscars for Crash.

(34:48):

He did. And he was nominated for a screenplay for Million Dollar Baby. So all of that actually panned out. And I remember the one conversation, it's funny how you remember certain things. Tom Rosenberg, who was my partner for many years, he said to me one day, I don't know that Hillary Swank's character should bite her tongue, because in her progress to the ending, she actually bites her tongue and it says that she's refusing to speak. And I said, but I think she has to do it. He said, no, I don't think so. I said, I do. I said, I'll tell you why. Because if she doesn't bite her tongue, then you're killing Christopher Reeve. And that kind of stopped him because Christopher Reeve was quadriplegic, but he was alive and he was functioning, and you can function as a quadriplegic. She chose in the movie to indicate to Clint Eastwood, I want you to end my life.

*(35:40):

And then Tom said, oh, okay. That's right. So she ends up biting her tongue in an attempt to bleed to death. And then Rosenberg was always good with lines and with the thinking being that at that time, the fear was because the movie is about euthanasia. He actually commits euthanasia at the end of the movie. But with Clint Eastwood committing euthanasia, it's different from an actor that might've been considered more a target for the news. So I remember Bill O'Reilly actually did a whole thing on euthanasia in a positive way after seeing the movie. So it was just one of those things where we started shooting in May, we showed it to the studio in August. We didn't premiere it until December. Won New York film critics. We won four Oscars.

Kevin Goetz (36:22):

What was that like? 

Gary Lucchesi (36:23):

It was great.

Kevin Goetz (36:23):

Did you think you were going to win when Morgan won?

Gary Lucchesi (36:24):

I thought, we've got a real shot. I thought, because in those days, a best supporting actor is up first.

Kevin Goetz (36:33):

There was another movie you were competing with that?

Gary Lucchesi (36:35):

We were competing against Sideways, and we were competing against The Aviator. And by the way, The Aviator won the Producers Guild Award and Sideways won something else, and Million Dollar Baby.

Kevin Goetz (36:45):

So really was anyone's game.

Gary Lucchesi (36:47):

And Million Dollar Baby came on strong at the end.

Kevin Goetz (36:49):

Wow. What a great, great story. And I was so happy, Tom, and for you, and Al is a great guy.

Gary Lucchesi (36:55):

Al Ruddy was a treasure.

Kevin Goetz (36:58):

He was my neighbor in Palm Springs in my old house, and he just passed away this last year. Do you ever see Wanda, his wonderful wife?

Gary Lucchesi (37:05):

Yeah, sometimes. Yeah.

Kevin Goetz (37:05):

Yeah, yeah.

Gary Lucchesi (37:07):

Nice people.

Kevin Goetz (37:08):

Now, let me move to an area that you were in before you went to Lakeshore, which was Andrew Lloyd Weber. You ran his company for two or three.

Gary Lucchesi (37:18):

Years.

Kevin Goetz (37:19):

You did a few things. What was that like? You're a musical theater lover.

Gary Lucchesi (37:25):

Yes. Because it's about great voices and great talent.

Kevin Goetz (37:27):

Did you get on with him?

Gary Lucchesi (37:28):

Oh, yes. Loved Andrew. That was a little British when I was, did you get on with him? Yeah. When I was at Paramount, Ned Tanen had a friend, a French woman by the name of Annie Fargue, and Annie would come to the United States and visit, and Annie was connected to interesting people. And Andrew Lloyd Weber happened to be one of the people that she was connected to. The person that she was very close to before that was the producer of Grease and Saturday Night Fever. So Ned introduces me to this woman, Annie Fargue. She was a good friend of hers, and she's there with Andrew Lloyd Weber. And I met Andrew. And at that time, Andrew had two projects. He had Cats and Phantom of the Opera that hadn't been turned into feature films.

Kevin Goetz (38:09):

But let's make everyone aware that this is not the Cats that came out years later.

Gary Lucchesi (38:14):

Years later.

Kevin Goetz (38:14):

This is the musical on Broadway that was actually going to be taped in the stage.

*Gary Lucchesi (38:19):

It’s fantastic. It's Gillian Lynne. It was taped at the Adelphi Theater in London with the greatest cast ever. So Annie introduces me to Andrew Lloyd Weber and I talked to Andrew Lloyd Weber and Paramount negotiated three deals at that time. We negotiated a deal for Phantom, a deal for Cats as an animated film, and then a deal for Andrew to turn Sunset Boulevard into a movie. As it turned out, Paramount didn't end up making the deals on Phantom of the Opera, nor Cats, but did make the deal on Sunset Boulevard. So then I remember having to go to London, myself, and this business affairs guy by the name of Richard Fauchs, who really loved musical theater were there in London with Andrew. And at a certain point, we think we have a deal. And then Andrew brought in John Eastman, who's Linda Eastman, Paul McCartney's father as this attorney. And then it went sideways, but we ended up making the deal for Sunset Boulevard. And I made this relationship with Andrew Lloyd Weber. And what happened is that Paramount went through a transition where Frank Mancuso, who was my boss, was fired, and Stanley Jaffe, who was the producer of Fatal Attraction, became the chairman. And at a certain point, I think I could have kept my job, but I didn't have the will to remain at Paramount at that point. So I was transitioned to a producer. So everybody was fired, basically.

Kevin Goetz (39:39):

Which happens.

Gary Lucchesi (39:39):

It happens. Yeah, it happens. So my five years.

Kevin Goetz (39:42):

It's almost the badge of honor in a way.

Gary Lucchesi (39:43):

My five years were up, so I'm fired. I've got a producing deal at Paramount, and Andrews calls me because Andrew's relationship was with Polygram, and Polygram was going to take its satellites, which were a really useful group.

Kevin Goetz (39:57):

That was his company's name.

Gary Lucchesi (39:58):

That was his company's name.

Kevin Goetz (39:59):

A Really Useful Group.

Gary Lucchesi (40:00): 

And they were going to take a couple of other companies, including Steve Golan and Anonymous Entertainment. And there were like three companies, I think, Propaganda. There were three companies that they were going to merge together, and they were all going to make movies. So I was courted and made a deal with Andrew Lloyd Weber while I was still working at Paramount to basically run his company.

Kevin Goetz (40:21):

I remember you were in Maple Drive, I think, in those offices.

Gary Lucchesi (40:22):

And there were a couple things that turned out, but I ended up as executive producer of Cats, the video, which was the show that Gillian Lynne, who was a choreographer. It was distributed by Polygram, and I think it sold like 10 million units. It was a huge DVD. And by the way, it is still the best version of the show. I mean, it is the show.

Kevin Goetz (40:44):

What was it like, Gary, when you learned that you were elected as president of the PGA that had it feel really good?

Gary Lucchesi (40:52):

Well, I had been vice president before, so I was at the PGA first. I was on the board of directors, then Hawk Koch. And Gail Heard asked me to join the PGA, I dunno, 24 years ago something. So I joined it, and then Marshall Herskowitz asked me to be on the board. So I was on the board, and then I was asked to be vice president of Motion pictures. So I was vice president of motion pictures. And then when Hawk and Mark Gordon retired, there was a question of who would come in. And they asked me to become president.

Kevin Goetz (41:19):

And you co-presidents with?

Gary Lucchesi (41:21):

Lori McCreary.

Kevin Goetz (41:21):

Who runs Revelations with Morgan Freeman.

Gary Lucchesi (41:23):

Right. And it was that relationship, because Lori and I are working together. I work with Lori at Revelation for four years, but it was.

Kevin Goetz (41:31):

You didn't know each other

Gary Lucchesi (41:32):

Well, through Million Dollar Baby. We knew each other. And then we did a movie called The Feast of Love with Morgan that Lori was the executive producer.

Kevin Goetz (41:38):

On Greg Kinnear.

Gary Lucchesi (41:39):

Greg Kinnear. And you did the focus groups.

Kevin Goetz (41:41):

Oh, yes, I did. Harry, I think I've done.

Gary Lucchesi (41:44):

All of em.

Kevin Goetz (41:44):

Every single movie you've ever done. And including the ones when you were an executive.

Gary Lucchesi (41:48):

Paramount.

Kevin Goetz (41:50):

Well over 60 movies.

Gary Lucchesi (41:50):

We're talking in the hundreds, hundreds, hundreds. So I knew Lori, but it was as president of the Producer's Guild that we really established a working relationship that was so good that literally she's the only person that's ever signed my name to an email. And maybe I'm the only person that's ever signed her name to an email. For people like the two of us, that's a big deal. You would never do it on something that you had a question about. Of course. 

Kevin Goetz (42:15):

But it showed that unity.

Gary Lucchesi (42:16):

Yes. Yeah. And when Lakeshore was ending, she was one of the people that I confided in, and she said to me, would you think about working with me and Morgan? And I said, sure. It was natural. I said, yes, immediately.

Kevin Goetz (42:26):

So now you're with Revelations. And now it brings me to my final question, which really has to do with what's going on in our business now. What are we hoping to see in the near future?

*Gary Lucchesi (42:38):

Well, Kevin, let's be honest. When you and I get together, I ask you as many questions as you ask me, because you're doing scientific studies every day trying to understand human nature. And I'm a curious guy, and I'm trying to understand human nature too. There is no question. This now comes from four years as president of the Producer's Guild, four years as President Emeritus of the Producer's Guild. Also very much involved still with the Producer's Guild and the International Committee, and questions about AI. Questions about what has happened since the consent decree ended since FinCEN ended, the birth of digital distribution, and how that is completely upended Hollywood as we know it, combined with the pandemic, combined with strikes, combined with just the experience of ourselves. You and I are still old school, so I dress in a nice pair of slacks in a dress shirt to have this conversation.

(43:36):

You actually are wearing a sport coat. But I bought a sport coat two or three years ago. I haven't bought a new one since. I still get dress shirts at Christmas and nice pairs of slacks. I wear decent shoes, although today I'm wearing my Nikes. But all of our habits have changed significantly to the point where I don't know what you and Neil are like when you get home in the evening and you've got a screening room too, but you get home and you have dinner with your partner, and are you watching the news? Are you hearing that there's a great series on? Is there, oh, haven't seen Ripley. I want to watch Ripley. Steve Zaillien is a wonderful director. Oh, Presumed Innocent is supposed to be really good. I want to watch Presumed Innocent. The next thing you know, you're spending eight hours watching something of quality on television that is interesting. Or you're watching the news. I've watched more news in the last four years than I ever watched in my entire life.

Kevin Goetz (44:24):

It's theater.

Gary Lucchesi (44:25):

It's theater. And then it leads you to asking yourself crazy questions. So here was one of my deductions. Find this maybe slightly odd, but maybe relevant too. Okay. So Deborah and I, we watch YouTube all the time, and oftentimes it's to see something of music or musical theater. We have probably watched Patty LuPone receiving her Tony for Evita 50 times. And she gets up and she does this bravura performance where she's singing great. And then all of a sudden, Mandy Patinkin comes in playing Che and then whatever his name was, playing Perone. But you've got the three of them on stage and she's just hitting these notes that you can't believe. So we watch YouTube all the time, and we found ourselves watching the 10 Best musical moments. And I said, it's going to be Singing in the Rain's going to be number one. And they had West was number one.

*(45:16):

And at certain points, I said, it's amazing that in Old Hollywood, they did all these movies about making movies, Singing in the Rain. And then the last one was probably La La Land that was about making movies Babylon, Babylon, and about the joy that people have in making movies. And I said, that's a problem with Hollywood is that nobody's making movies about the joy of making movies. And then I was thinking about it and I said, Jesus, I said, maybe I'm a thousand percent wrong. I think I'm a thousand percent wrong. And she kind of looks at me and I said, what are the young people doing today? TikTok. They're making little movies. You've got all these kids that are taking their cell phones and they're being creative and they're making money. I said, they're like the pioneers of Hollywood. They're the same people as Busby Berkeley doing a little comedy sketch or Charlie Chaplin doing something. They're doing their own version of art.

Kevin Goetz (46:08):

And you just brought in, my philosophy is I think there's tremendous opportunity. I have no idea. Well, I have some idea where I think things are going, which that's a whole nother show. But I do feel that the young folks, the Gen Zs, half of the millennials are going to reinvent the business.

*Gary Lucchesi (46:28):

Absolutely. Absolutely. And they should. They should. And I'm desperate for them to. Where's the millennial story? That's like, it was funny. My daughters are both in their thirties. One of them one best friends is a philosophy professor at Pomona, and she's got her own podcast. And then another one is a psychiatrist at UCLA that's dealing with LSD and with microdosing to work with VA patients. These are interesting people. In Annie Hall, Woody Allen would have this dinner party where there would be interesting people all talking about these fascinating things that they're doing. They're all millennials are younger, and we just need to see that content.

Kevin Goetz (47:06):

I know. And you and I have to recognize, and Terry Press and I talked about this on a previous episode, there was this nostalgia and a reverence. And you look back and think about the old Hollywood lure, and that's gone in many ways. And young people just don't have the relationship with going to a movie theater to see a movie.

Gary Lucchesi (47:27):

No, they don't.

Kevin Goetz (47:28):

In the same way.

Gary Lucchesi (47:29):

No, they don't.

Kevin Goetz (47:29):

And it's just a thing.

Gary Lucchesi (47:31):

And they won't have it.

Kevin Goetz (47:32):

I mean, our grandparents said, oh, when we sat around the radio, or my parents would say, oh, I used to go to the movies every week. And they'd give you a dish, like a plate. Every time you went, you can collect an entire service. And we would see a double feature, or my grandparents talking about going to vaudeville. So we all kind of, I think grew what came before us to some degree. But I'm very excited about what's going to happen.

*Gary Lucchesi (47:58):

And it is happening. It is what it is. And my youngest daughter works in fashion retail with a company that basically sells clothes online. And they're doing fine. They're doing great. But you're not going to the department store to buy the clothes by and large. And we're doing something about what is religion nowadays? You go to Pasadena and you go on, I think it's on Lake Street. There's like four or five churches in a row. There's a Catholic church, Presbyterian, Episcopalian, Methodist, maybe a Jewish temple. They're all on the same street. They're all empty. Okay. Your cell phone is your device for community. Now your church. It's your church. It's today's church. And by the way, religion may not be about getting asses in seats. Maybe religion is about good acts, good deeds, good thoughts. Maybe that's what religion is really about today. I don't know. Okay. But those are interesting questions. It's why people like you and I, Kevin, continue to love this art form because we are, I'll put you in the category of producing content, I know you have done a number of things, but you're not doing as many focus groups anymore in front of a big theater that you used to do seven nights a week.

Kevin Goetz (49:10):

No, I am. I mean, I'm not. We are.

Gary Lucchesi (49:12):

Oh, you are?

Kevin Goetz (49:13):

Oh yeah, we are. We're still doing them. In fact, we're doing more because what's happened is quality of movies have actually taken a priority where you could get away with releasing more mediocre fair. You can't do 25 years ago. You can't get away with that now. So people are much more sensitive to making great content.

Gary Lucchesi (49:32):

So the studios are doing more groups? Studios and streamers. Oh, the streamers are doing them for movies. Oh yeah. Oh, they are?

Kevin Goetz (49:39):

Oh yeah. For both online screenings and of course in person. Last night, I think we had three screenings, the night before we had four screenings, but of course I have a whole battery folks who trained who do what I do.

(49:51):

Gary, we could talk forever. What can I say? Man? We both love the business so much. Every time we sit down for a meal, first thing to say is, Kev, oh man, what's going on with this business? And I laugh at it because I know where this lunch is going, but at the end of the lunch, we're going to be rejuvenated. We're going to be excited about the future. So I thank you so much. Thank you, Kevin, for your friendship, for your love, and I love you right back, and you're my man. You're just one of my favorite people in the entire business.

Gary Lucchesi (50:24):

We're similar. And Kevin, what you've done with your career, I knew you when, is absolutely fantastic. And like I said, you are a producer. You find interesting subjects and you're not afraid. You've gone from focus groups to owning your company, buying real estate, writing books, now doing podcasts at the same time producing content, trying to understand the world and the world's your oyster because people are trying to understand themselves nowadays, and you can help find the answers.

Kevin Goetz (50:53):

Wow. Well, thank you Gary, so much. To our listeners, I hope you enjoyed our interview today. For more filmmaking and audience testing stories, I invite you to check out my book Audienceology at Amazon or through my website at KevinGoetz360.com. You can also follow me on my social media. Next time on Don't Kill the Messenger, I'll welcome Academy Award nominated producer David Friendly. Until then, I'm Kevin Goetz and to you, our listeners, I appreciate you being part of the movie making process. Your opinions matter.

Host: Kevin Goetz
Guest: Gary Lucchesi
Producer: Kari Campano
Writers: Kevin Goetz, Darlene Hayman, and Kari Campano
Audio Engineer: Gary Forbes (DG Entertainment)