Podcast: Don't Kill the Messenger with Movie Research Expert Kevin Goetz
Guest: Audience Research Pioneer, Catherine Paura
Interview Transcript:

Announcer (00:02):

There's a little-known part of Hollywood that most people are not aware of, known as the audience test preview. The book Audienceology reveals this for the first time. Our podcast series, Don't Kill the Messenger, brings this book to life, taking a peek behind the curtain. And now join author and entertainment research expert, Kevin Goetz.

Kevin Goetz (00:22):

A book dedication is a deeply personal expression of gratitude, often acknowledging those who inspired or supported the writer. My first book, Audienceology, was dedicated to my guest today and I'm truly, truly grateful for her profound impact on my career in entertainment research. Joining me today is Catherine Paura, an accomplished entrepreneur and C-suite executive who co-founded National Research Group, along with the late Joe Farrell in 1977. NRG, as it is more commonly known, set the standard for movie research. After selling the company three decades later, Catherine and Joe started Farrell Paura Productions. And following Joe's passing, Catherine continued as chairman and CEO of her own company, Capstone Global Marketing and Research. She later held key positions at Alcon Entertainment and at my own company, Screen Engine/ASI. Today, Catherine is a sought after professional coach, working with executives across the entertainment and business sectors. Catherine, I'm so looking forward to reminiscing with you today. Welcome.

Catherine Paura (01:38):

Well thank you. Thank you for having me. Thank you for that brilliant introduction. And when I found out that you dedicated your book to me, I was very, very moved. I truly was very moved.

Kevin Goetz (01:50):

I remember you saying that to me. You said you cried and I was…

Catherine Paura (01:53):

I did.

Kevin Goetz (01:54):

I love making you cry. So that was my intention. <laugh> <laugh>, you know.

Catherine Paura (02:00):

That's nice.

Kevin Goetz (02:01):

An interview like the two of us are having is a blessing and a curse. The blessing is that other people get to get in on our sort of secrets, but the curse is that we know way too much about each other. So we will often take things for granted. Or, I as an interviewer, have to not think that everyone else knows what I know because we have been personal friends for, dare I say, almost 40 years. I remember seeing this really well dressed woman sitting on the stairs of an exit alley of a theater, <laugh> counting questionnaires and entering data and I had no idea what anything was. I didn't know what a one sheet was, I didn't know what a screening was. And you were so kind to me. And from that moment we bonded.

Catherine Paura (02:59):

We did. And sitting on stairs was so not uncommon to me. Having grown up in Brooklyn, what's the difference between a stoop or stairs? Right.

Kevin Goetz (03:06):

Okay. So another thing we share, we're both from Brooklyn, I'm from Bensonhurst. You're from Flatbush.

Catherine Paura (03:12):

Yes.

Kevin Goetz (03:12):

Tell us about Catherine Paura growing up in Flatbush in the fifties and sixties.

Catherine Paura (03:19):

Well, my grandparents lived across the street and my Aunt Grace did for a while too. We were a very typical Italian family, extended Italian family. And three girls, my sisters and I, we went to Catholic school. We went to St. Jerome's and I went to high school at Bishop McDonald and I started Brooklyn College in 19, oh God, 68. But I was very, I was, I was a protege. I was like 10 <laugh>. So I don't want anybody to think I'm old or anything. But it was great. I mean, it was very different.

Kevin Goetz (03:50):

You know what's so crazy is that you come from strictly working class background and yet education was so bloody important to the three girls all getting higher degrees. Can you talk about why that was so important?

Catherine Paura (04:07):

Yes, I can. My mother was a very, very bright woman and a bright girl, but she was impoverished. So when she was in ninth grade, the war was on and she was yanked out of school and she didn't want to leave school. And my father came to America in 1932 from Italy. He was 10 and he had not been in school. He grew up in southern Italy in a very agrarian society. When he came to America, Brooklyn, he went to school. He went to first grade and he was 10. So it was an unhappy situation. He was bullied and all the typical things that kids do. But unlike my mother, he didn't like school. When World War II started, he went into the Army. He was 18 and just out of grade school. And my mother, her mantra to the three of us, you know, Gracie, Angela, and I had always been, I can hear it today, I can even see where I was sitting when she would say, get educated, better yourselves. Get educated, better yourselves. If she said it once, she said it 5 million times.

Kevin Goetz (05:12):

I love that you recognized her innate intelligence and her innate brightness and yet she didn't have the education to explore, expand that skill.

Catherine Paura (05:24):

No, no opportunity at all.

Kevin Goetz (05:27):

Well, so you go to Brooklyn College, you leave and you get a job in the city pretty much right outta school, is that correct?

Catherine Paura (05:34):

Yes. I got a job at Lewis Harris and Associates, the Harris Poll. Lou Harris was a very prominent political pollster at the time. In fact, he had been Kennedy's pollster and that's where I met Joe Farrell.

Kevin Goetz (05:46):

And what did Joe do there at that time?

Catherine Paura (05:49):

Joe, basically after a while he ran the Harris bureau, but the first thing he did there, he started a little subsidiary, national Research Center of the Arts.

Kevin Goetz (06:01):

Was that like a passion project or was that actually a money making?

Catherine Paura (06:04):

No, I think it was a passion project because you know, Joe went to, I think you know this, Joe went to Harvard Law School and passed the bar and went to work for Milbank Tweed. He worked with the Rockefellers. So he combined what he knew from a legal point of view with being an arts lobbyist, to engaging in research to secure more funding for arts. So by that I mean he was very influential in aiding in growing the funding for the National Endowment for the Arts.

Kevin Goetz (06:38):

Wow.

Catherine Paura (06:38):

Yeah. And there are all kinds of art studies that we did for museums.

Kevin Goetz (06:42):

And that's where your love probably came from, the appreciation for, I like to tell people, Catherine, that you are a true and utter class act, but you didn't come from the manner born, you didn't come from that upbringing. And yet as a student of life, you have managed to pick up and embrace some of the finer things. I'm talking about food and wine and travel. And you made yourself into a class act. I don't know how else to say it. And there's many people who are born with money and access and resources who don't have class and don't have that. And my husband Neil always said that Catherine's one of the classiest women that he's ever known. And I think that is so commendable to have achieved that.

Catherine Paura (07:34):

I'm very flattered by that. One of the things I knew from the time that I was a little girl, and I think almost laughing at it now, when you think about the programming in the fifties and sixties, when I watched TV and I would see shows like Father Knows Best or My Three Sons or whatever. And they seemed very fancy to me. They had very fancy houses. We didn't have the fancy houses.

Kevin Goetz (07:57):

Leave it to Beaver.

Catherine Paura (07:58):

<laugh>, Leave it to Beaver.

Kevin Goetz (08:00):

The Nelsons.

Catherine Paura (08:01):

Right. I aspired to that. I thought, oh, I want to split level house with a pool in the backyard. But when I was a senior in high school, I went to work for a company called Donaldson Lufkin Jenrette. And they were a maverick brokerage house. This was in 1967. And I worked there for five years or more, actually all the time while I was in school. But it showed me how other people lived. And I was agog. I couldn't believe it. I had no sense of it, but I knew that I wanted a piece of it. And we, when I say we, my friends and I who worked there from Bishop McDonald, they only hired girls from Bishop McDonald to work there.

Kevin Goetz (08:44):

Good Catholic girls, <laugh>

Catherine Paura (08:46):

Good Catholic girls. And Bishop McDonald was a certain kind of school. It was a school for bright girls. And I was very lucky to be able to go there. I got a great education and when I saw how they all lived, I felt that I had to learn this.

Kevin Goetz (09:01):

Wow.

Catherine Paura (09:02):

And I observed, I listened and I worked hard. And I came to be known by Bill Donaldson and Dick Jenrette, I mean Dick Jenrette. And I didn't do it just because the time was so different. He wanted me to go to Harvard Business School and come back and work at DLJ. But I don't know, I just, I don't think I felt comfortable going to Harvard Business School. I just, it just didn't feel right for me.

Kevin Goetz (09:30):

And so funny, you were lucky enough to go to Harris and meet Joe who really became a Svengali, a mentor.

Catherine Paura (09:39):

Yes.

Kevin Goetz (09:40):

For you. And he had lived and he had also from Staten Island, by the way, not from the Manor born either.

Catherine Paura (09:48):

No, no. His father was a New York City policeman.

Kevin Goetz (09:51):

Exactly. But yet got a tremendous education, highly bright like you, both of your, I imagine, IQs off the chart. And yet you were able to find somebody who took you under their wing and believed in you. Now we get to the fun part of Joe leaves Harris with Catherine Paura, his, I guess assistant at the time.

Catherine Paura (10:15):

Yes.

Kevin Goetz (10:16):

To go out kind of Jerry McGuire a little bit and go out to Hollywood to start a business called National Research Group. Tell us about that.

Catherine Paura (10:26):

Well, what happened is we were still working for Lou Harris, actually, DLJ owned Harris. And that's how I got to Harris. So I wanted to work at the Harris Poll because it was Vietnam War and it was all kinds of craziness about working on Wall Street. It's just different world.

Kevin Goetz (10:42):

Anti-establishment, not cool.

Catherine Paura (10:44):

Yes. All that. So I went and I worked at Harris and when I saw Lou, he said, what are you doing here? And I said, well, I have a two week job with Joe Farrell in the arts department. And he looked at me, 'cause I knew him from DLJ, he used to do all of his personal accounting. And I was a kid. And he said to me, oh dear, you can stay as long as you like <laugh>. So.

Kevin Goetz (11:06):

I love that.

Catherine Paura (11:08):

Anyway, so Joe and I went in 1977 to LA with Harris 'cause Lou wanted to have an office in the Sunbelt. And then we looked around and there wasn't really much going on at the time, businesswise, except in the entertainment industry. And when Joe went to New York and proposed it to Lou, he said, no, I don't want to work with those people. They're crazy. When Joe came back and said, do you want to start our own company? And I wasn't so excited about living in LA, I was lonely. So I said, okay, I'd give it another year 'cause I love the idea of being entrepreneurial. So we started NRG, the day of Incorporation was December 15th, 1977. And our first day of operation was right after New Year in 1978.

Kevin Goetz (11:51):

Wow. Okay. What was the first movie you worked on?

Catherine Paura (11:53):

The first movie we worked on was Lassie Come Home or something. <laugh>.

Kevin Goetz (11:58):

I know an early movie though, was Apocalypse Now.

Catherine Paura (12:01):

Yes.

Kevin Goetz (12:01):

And Francis Ford Coppola was a really early advocate for you and for NRG. Correct?

Catherine Paura (12:07):

He was. He was an early adopter of the process. Yes, very much so.

Kevin Goetz (12:11):

What was the process then?

*Catherine Paura (12:13):

The process was not so dissimilar from what it is now. The only big difference was in the very early days, we didn't do recruited audience screenings. The studios were doing sneak previews and we were handing out questionnaires at sneak previews. And in the case of Apocalypse Now, there were three round the clock screenings in Westwood, I think they were at the Bruin. And people just lined up and waited in line for hours. And we handed out questionnaires and Francis was trying to determine what to do about the ending. So memory serves, there were three different endings that we showed, so once one screening stopped, we let the other people in and the last reel would go on. And so that went on for the whole night. And then I went back to the office where I started doing the hand counts and the coding. And you know, in those days we did everything.

Kevin Goetz (13:06):

Were you up on Hollywood Boulevard then?

Catherine Paura (13:08):

Yes, we were 7046 Hollywood Boulevard.

Kevin Goetz (13:11):

Which was a former brothel, if I remember.

Catherine Paura (13:13):

Well, there was a brothel across the hall from us. Yeah. <laugh> in our first <laugh>. And there was that sex shop downstairs.

Kevin Goetz (13:20):

Oh, well I joined you in 1987.

Catherine Paura (13:24):

But we were still in that.

Kevin Goetz (13:25):

Oh, so you were already in business 10 years. Oh yes. You were in that building.

Catherine Paura (13:27):

Yeah, still in that crazy building.

Kevin Goetz (13:28):

I'll never forget. Uh, 'cause you're on Hollywood Boulevard. So it's the Hollywood Walk of Fame. And when you walk out, do you remember whose star was right in front of NRG?

Catherine Paura (13:38):

God, I don't.

Kevin Goetz (13:39):

Ann B. Davis from the Brady Bunch.

Catherine Paura (13:41):

Oh my goodness. <laugh>. Oh my goodness. I don't remember.

Kevin Goetz (13:45):

And I remember saying one day I'll be on here <laugh>, I'll have a star on the Hollywood Walk of Fame. In any event, you started with Francis, you started with screenings. And it wasn't until a couple of years later, or pretty near to that, that you started advertising testing as well.

Catherine Paura (14:06):

No, we did advertising testing before we did recruited audience screenings.

Kevin Goetz (14:10):

Got it. So wait, but the Francis thing was after that, or that was not really, no.

Catherine Paura (14:14):

It wasn't recruited audience screenings.

Kevin Goetz (14:16):

Because it was sneak was their sneak.

Catherine Paura (14:17):

Was sneak previews. And we…

Kevin Goetz (14:18):

So in other words, they advertised those.

Catherine Paura (14:20):

That's correct.

Kevin Goetz (14:20):

People came to see them. Three different audiences.

Catherine Paura (14:23):

That's right.

Kevin Goetz (14:24):

But you did the data.

Catherine Paura (14:25):

That's right.

Kevin Goetz (14:25):

You did the questionnaires, you did the analysis for Francis. And he was able to then say, wow, this is really effective. But you started doing…

Catherine Paura (14:36):

He started doing ad testing, first testing in those days, of course you tested print ads, you tested trailers and you tested TV commercials.

Kevin Goetz (14:44):

Who was your first client?

Catherine Paura (14:45):

We worked for RCA Selectavision and we worked for the Rather Corporation. Those are the first two I remember. And then we also worked for, uh, Universal. Richard Del Belso was at Universal then with Willette Klausner.

Kevin Goetz (14:59):

And Perry Katz.

Catherine Paura (15:00):

Perry Katz. I think Perry came later.

Kevin Goetz (15:02):

Columbia, wasn't he a Columbia?

Catherine Paura (15:04):

I think he might've come a year or so later.

Kevin Goetz (15:06):

Got it.

Catherine Paura (15:06):

Yeah. I don't remember exactly.

Kevin Goetz (15:08):

But those were early advocates for you 'cause I know tracking started what we know as tracking movies started a few years after that. But it was with sort of Richard and Perry and, and NRG initially.

Catherine Paura (15:22):

Right. And Dana too. Dana as well.

Kevin Goetz (15:23):

And Dana Lombardo at Disney.

Catherine Paura (15:26):

Yeah.

Kevin Goetz (15:27):

And then what you all sort of came together and created what would've been a prohibitively expensive product to create what is now a syndicated product.

*Catherine Paura (15:35):

But at first what happened was studios wanted to do tracking. I don't even remember, to be honest, how the whole notion of tracking came up. But keep in mind that Joe and I worked at Harris, and Harris was a political pollster. And the similarities between political polling and polling for movies are apparent when you think about it from this point of view. If your candidate doesn't win on a Tuesday, you can't go back and rethink your campaign. If your movie doesn't open on a Friday, you can't go back and rethink your campaign. So everything leads to that opening weekend or that election. So there were a lot of similarities between the two. And we, maybe it came about because you know, tracking is such a big part of political polling even then. But I don't really remember.

Kevin Goetz (16:31):

Well, I can tell you what I think it is, is that when you came out to California, there was a seismic change that happened, which is from road shows to using television as a major form of advertising. And the wide release started really with Jaws and Star Wars only a couple of years earlier. So now you're thrust in a situation of having what is now known as the advertising flight. And no one was measuring the efficacy of a lot of money being spent on that television campaign.

*Catherine Paura (17:05):

No, it's true. When TV ads became so much a part of the campaign, the biggest part of the expense, certainly of the campaign, then the advertising testing became more important. And then tracking, as you point out, became important. But there were three different trackings going on. Several different studios were doing their own tracking. And somebody, it might've been Richard, it might've been Perry said, why don't we all get together and do an industrywide tracking?

Kevin Goetz (17:35):

Which is so much more economical. Of course. And smart because you also want to know what your competitors are doing. That's right. You just don't want to know what you're doing.

Catherine Paura (17:41):

That's right.

Kevin Goetz (17:42):

What I found so interesting in what you enlightened me about was, in tracking's intention has always been, as I said, to measure the efficacy. How strongly or not strongly you are resonating in terms of your awareness, your interest, and your choice. Is it your first choice to go see about four weeks or so before the movie opened. And there were very few people who understood kind of how to read it effectively, but then something crazy happened. And that was that at some point in time, and I want to say it was about 10 to 15 years later, tracking became almost a parlor game. It became a predictive tool, which it never was intended to do. It was never intended. Talk about that, please.

Catherine Paura (18:28):

And people don't understand still, I mean, even more so to this day. But Peter Sealey was a marketing executive at Coke. And Coke bought Columbia, I think it was in the mid eighties or late eighties. And he insisted that we give predictions.

Kevin Goetz (18:45):

We really, because Coca-Cola sold units and widgets, essentially.

Catherine Paura (18:48):

That’s right, and he tried to explain that movies don't have a shelf life and all the things that it could impact the opening of a movie. And even more so now. But no, he insisted. And then it just was like letting the horse out of the corral. And everybody wanted to know what their movies were going to do. And this was a horror story.

Kevin Goetz (19:08):

And what happened was you guys got a lot of pressure to get it right. And of course it can't be right. It could be right sometimes and it could be less right others. But directionally it's almost always right.

Catherine Paura (19:23):

That's correct. I would say directionally it's 99% correct.

Kevin Goetz (19:26):

But when you start talking about the finite nature of it, that's where people have gotten into trouble. And of course, you know, I read the last week, someone in the trades said, 'cause Screen Engine has a tracker. Of course NRG still has their tracker. MarketCast has a tracker. And I think what happened was people were saying, well, they missed by, I think it was $5 million on a $65 million opening or something. Essentially we were all in the same range. And I was thinking to myself, boy, that's great. I know, and yet they were saying, oh, tracking overestimated or underestimated. I know. And I was like, I know you guys, you have no idea why tracking is there. So I'm glad we cleared that up.

Catherine Paura (20:05):

Even the language, I mean, tracking overestimated, underestimated tracking got it wrong. And you know, there were days when I just wanted to poke my eyes out, <laugh>.

Kevin Goetz (20:17):

And it's only gotten more so. Early on, you guys establish yourselves as the go-to place. And suddenly research became an imperative. It became a must. You had to do research. What caused that? Well, when did you realize that it was sort of reached a critical mass?

*Catherine Paura (20:34):

This is a briefly a history of it. When Joe and I started NRG, these studios were still in a distribution model. You know, put the movie out there and they come, well that stopped happening. And therefore the studios had to change to a marketing model. But not everyone thought of it in those terms. And not every studio was prepared to think about going from a distribution model, put it in the theaters and they will come to a marketing model. There was PR, you know, PR was marketing. That's what happened. But the, the baby boomers were such a huge population, not unlike when you combine the millennials and you know, the Gen Z. And now we've got the alpha generation coming out. But you know, when you think about the huge numbers of baby boomers, they needed to be marketed to.

Kevin Goetz (21:28):

And convinced and persuaded.

Catherine Paura (21:30):

And convinced, it's persuasion and awareness. So it didn't happen overnight. Little by little by little, the studios began to realize they needed to advertise. They needed to market. And Richard Del Belso and Sandy Reisenbach at Warner Brothers. Right. Richard had already been at Universal. He came from Gray advertising and then Sandy Reisenbach and Joel Wayne came from Gray Advertising and they all went to work. Perry Katz also worked at Gray. So they went to work at Warner Brothers with Bob Daley and Terry Semel, who were very much into the marketing. And that's when things really began to change.

Kevin Goetz (22:11):

They were really the first adopters as studios.

Catherine Paura (22:13):

That's right. Correct. That's right. UA, Highsmith was head of marketing at United Artists. And he was an early adopter because he was to market.

Kevin Goetz (22:21):

Who ended up running UIP.

Catherine Paura (22:22):

Yeah. Marketing for UIP. And it was a high who hired us for Apocalypse Now.

Kevin Goetz (22:28):

Wow. By the way, UIP was a conglomerate for the International Marketing of three studios. Universal, MGM, and Paramount.

Catherine Paura (22:37):

Right.

Kevin Goetz (22:38):

An interesting model that I think now needs to come back because it is just too expensive.

Catherine Paura (22:44):

Yes.

Kevin Goetz (22:44):

To maintain these overheads. I think that there's a big white space and an opportunity to have another sort of model of a UIP. When we come back, we're going to talk to Catherine about the later years and what she's doing now. We'll be back in a moment. Listeners, The Motion Picture and Television Fund is a nonprofit charitable organization that supports working and retired members of the entertainment community. This wonderfully run organization offers assistance for living and aging with dignity and purpose in the areas of health and social services, including temporary financial assistance, case management, and residential living, and has been a crucial lifeline to thousands during and beyond the strikes. To learn more, visit mptf.com. Please join me in helping others in our industry during times of need. There are so many ways to offer support and get involved. Thank you. We're back with Catherine Paura. Catherine, you guys had a monopoly at NRG.

Catherine Paura (24:00):

No, we didn't. We didn’t.

Kevin Goetz (24:01):

I'm not allowed to say monopoly. I actually thought of Kari, our producer was and I were thinking about what, what's not a monopoly, but like a monopoly. But let's say what it really was. It was a majority. We had very large, it was a very large percentage.

Catherine Paura (24:16):

Market share of the business.

Kevin Goetz (24:17):

How did you maintain that? People were nipping at your heels constantly. And by the way, people should know that NRG, although they created the modern architecture for movie research, were not the first. George Gallup came to Hollywood in the thirties along with David Ogilvy and left few years later, but never had this mass in critical success, obviously. Kind of left with his tail between his legs in fact, because not everyone signed onto it. But as Catherine just expressed about having a marketing centric approach and how the business had changed, they were reacting to the business. But you managed to keep at bay a lot of people who wanted a piece of the action. How did you do it? I mean, there was great sacrifice that came with that, wasn't there?

*Catherine Paura (25:04):

Yeah, it was great sacrifice. It was working 24/7 for 25 years. But that's neither here nor there 'cause I really loved what I did. I mean, I really did. In fact, I do miss parts of it. I don't think it can exist the way it did just because times are so different. But I do miss parts of it. I really do. There are a couple of things. I think Kevin. One is, it began to work when we started to test materials and when we started to open to higher grosses, there was, oh, this stuff really works. And then our interpretation and I think our approach to what we did as individuals, we were modest. We didn't take the credit. We kept our prices so low. It was so hard for anyone from real research to compete with us because we had volume and the prices were ridiculously low for what we provided. Now a lot of people, if they hear this, they'll say, what is she getting? But they were.

Kevin Goetz (26:08):

No, I can attest to the fact that the screenings stayed at $9,995 for about 20, 25 years.

Catherine Paura (26:17):

And they started out at $4,800. And it took a long time to get up.

Kevin Goetz (26:21):

They were a loss leader because you knew that if you had them at the screenings, you could often then understand their movie, which made you more educated about how to inform the advertising for the movie, which was a more lucrative business in the advertising of that.

Catherine Paura (26:39):

That’s right.

Kevin Goetz (26:39):

And then of course the tracking followed. So the three legs of the stool were check mark, check mark, check mark. A very smart, smart philosophy. But listen, I, I remember the early days you and I would sneak off to a museum here and there. I would go swimming at your house in the early years. And yet you already got up and you already had sent out faxes to the industry on exit polls. You had already probably were going to a screening that late afternoon. So it was about sneaking stuff in. But you gave really so much to this business.

*Catherine Paura (27:15):

I did because I was passionate about it. And also, if we were going to keep the kind of market share that we had, we had to work nonstop because service was key. I mean, you know that.

Kevin Goetz (27:26):

Do I know that? You taught it to me and I will tell this to our listeners. I have a insatiable need to put my clients first. And that was you guys. You never said no. And I basically never say no.

Catherine Paura (27:40):

No.

Kevin Goetz (27:41):

I will do everything. And much to the chagrin of many of the people who work at Screen Engine are often like, can we manage those timelines better? And I want to remind people of what it used to be like and how competitive business is and how competitive our industry is. You have to deliver. Clearly, if there's something you can push back on, one will, one hopes, but often you can't because we work at such a rapid pace, don't we Catherine?

Catherine Paura (28:10):

We do. I mean the timelines are almost inhumane. And certainly I suspect they haven't changed very much.

*Kevin Goetz (28:17):

You and I, we would do focus groups in a facility. You would take one room, I would do the other. The executives might go back and forth and we would commiserate afterwards and do a debrief. During the focus groups, they were calling the editing rooms and changing the materials that were going to go on the air the next day or two days later. So it almost was superfluous to have a report written because the changes were already made. Mm-hmm <affirmative>. That's how rapid people have to understand and how urgent our industry was. So for example, and correct me if I'm wrong here, and it's a bit of a loaded question 'cause I know I'm not, the tracking would hit and young males were not resonating. They would immediately go and do focus groups to figure out how they could persuade young males. They would then cut new spots. They would be on the air within two days and they would then see hopefully a lift because of the work that we did. But they didn't have time to think about it, to work on it, to finesse it. They had to make a release date.

Catherine Paura (29:23):

They had to respond. And you could do that then. As you know, often we see in tracking absolutely no lift in definite interest. There used to be a lift in definite interest. And part of it is the trailer hangs out online for so long and the materials are online. But back in the day before the internet, you could impact definite interest by changing the TV commercials.

Kevin Goetz (29:50):

Exactly. And what's so interesting to me, and it still exists, is still in all unaided interest. That is, what do you know is opening this week.

Catherine Paura (30:02):

Right?

Kevin Goetz (30:02):

Without being telling the respondent. What do you know that's opening. That recall that is unaided and first choice. That's my first choice movie I want to see. Those two things are the most correlative of all of the measures still today.

Catherine Paura (30:19):

Mm-hmm <affirmative> still today.

Kevin Goetz (30:19):

And definite interest used to have much more of an impact than it does now. It's almost like why even advertise on television for movies? What do you think of that?

Catherine Paura (30:31):

Well, I think that there's some TV advertising that works where if you're looking at sports for example, you can reach a very large audience.

Kevin Goetz (30:41):

Anything that's live. Correct.

Catherine Paura (30:43):

That's right. But if in fact you, with today, with all the tools that we can use for micromarketing, you know, there's massive TV buys for movies seem not to make sense.

Kevin Goetz (30:54):

Especially movies that are not for everybody. Correct?

Catherine Paura (30:57):

That's right.

*Kevin Goetz (30:58):

Because when you have a movie that's very specifically say psychographically driven, you don't necessarily need the reach and frequency that television in the past has offered. Right. We call it in media reach and frequency, listeners, where you are spending a lot of money to get a large reach of people. And you're doing it often. And the theory was for many years that by hearing it and seeing it over and over again, and people did and were very tuned into commercials on television, you would then be persuaded, at least made aware if nothing else. But now, many people don't even watch at all television. So, but it's still a challenge to get reach and frequency digitally.

Catherine Paura (31:48):

Mm-hmm <affirmative>.

Kevin Goetz (31:49):

It's kind of a dilemma, isn't it? How do we reach people, Catherine, these days, what do we do?

Catherine Paura (31:53):

Well, I think in these days they're certainly, social media plays a big role in reaching people.

Kevin Goetz (32:00):

But how do you cut through the noise?

*Catherine Paura (32:02):

I think one of the ways you cut through the noise is by having influencers, by having a campaign. Let's say if you have an actor and if they have a large social profile. So you would ask that she or he speak to their fans and send messages that will resonate with the fan base. Mm-hmm <affirmative>. Mm-hmm <affirmative>. Mean the fan base is certainly not enough typically to open a movie. But social media also, we can advertise online with very specific ads.

Kevin Goetz (32:42):

Targeting.

Catherine Paura (32:43):

Absolutely. Targeting and micro-targeting. So for example, if in fact I were to do a database with email addresses and I segmented that database by taste and interest. So I would say, okay, this group would be great to send personal ads to and this group we should ignore. They're never going to go see this movie, but this group might be a group that's on the fence, so let's target them. But with a softer approach. And it really is much more social. It's much more certain sites where you know that a certain group of moviegoers are hanging out. So that's what I see.

Kevin Goetz (33:33):

You know, it's so funny. I often say a lot of companies hang their hat on fans and fanship. I think those are the easiest people to get if you can reach them. In other words, they're already essentially convinced and don't need a lot of convincing.

Catherine Paura (33:49):

Right.

Kevin Goetz (33:49):

I think the moniker people should hang out is fence sitters. I'd like to be called the fence sitter company, not the fan company.

Catherine Paura (33:57):

Yes, I agree. Agree.

*Kevin Goetz (33:57):

Because the fence sitter company is what every marketer seeks. How do I get those people that are thinking about it are close, but need persuasion. Not the ones, to your point, Catherine, that will never be persuaded because you also have to identify them 'cause that's a lot of wasted resource, a lot of wasted money and expense. You're trying to convince people that will never be converted. And that's not a smart thing either. So you want to be able to say, okay, if I put the right resources and money into the awareness of my fans, I don't really have to do very much. They'll come. Where the opportunity exists is those people who are even definites, but not absolutely certain or high level of probability and the probables, those are the people to me, where marketing comes into mostly todays. Identifying them, reaching them, and convincing them.

Catherine Paura (34:54):

And you bring up a very important point because one of the things we can easily forget is that messaging is still key.

Kevin Goetz (35:02):

Oh, amen.

*Catherine Paura (35:03):

Messaging, messaging, messaging. And I think that sometimes we lose sight of that. And it's not about throwing something against the wall and it will stick. It's about really being very specific in a message that will work to persuade, persuade, persuade.

Kevin Goetz (35:23):

Boy, that is absolutely music to my ears. I cannot tell you, and you'll agree with me on this, I'm certain there are so many people who are really, really smart marketers, smart researchers, smart strategists who have been forgotten and who have such a great sense of messaging.

Catherine Paura (35:44):

Mm-hmm <affirmative>.

Kevin Goetz (35:45):

And you can hire someone to implement a digital campaign, but you can't hire somebody who doesn't know how to do messaging.

Catherine Paura (35:54):

That's correct.

Kevin Goetz (35:55):

That's a talent and a skill that has to be marinated and honed and really embraced. Once you have that, it's a matter of getting it out there. And there's a lot of younger folks and people who are entering the business who have a really great skill at that. But to get to the place of understanding what a campaign means, what messaging really means, how to persuade people, to me, a lot of the people who are being forgotten should be reconsidered.

Catherine Paura (36:24):

I completely agree. And messaging needs to be tested because we don't know. I can't tell you what a male of 25 or 30 would want to see.

Kevin Goetz (36:36):

And a marketer who is 35 can't tell what a person in their sixties, a female or male wants to see. Really.

Catherine Paura (36:46):

That's correct.

Kevin Goetz (36:47):

And by the way, let's even go a step further and say it's probably not any more even so delineated by age and gender as it is sensibilities.

Catherine Paura (37:00):

I think that's correct.

Kevin Goetz (37:01):

Because you know, like you and I, essentially of a similar age.

Catherine Paura (37:05):

Thank you <laugh>.

Kevin Goetz (37:07):

I know. But we, but we come from the same generation of boomers. I'm the last year of the boomers. I'll just say that. And the fact is though, we relate and understand and share so many commonalities, but as a man and a woman, we may not be marketed to the same way because of the way demographics have been used. And that's a shame. And then if you add race or ethnicity into that, we may not see something. I mean, you wrote your dissertation on black cinema. Yes. On black movies. Effects on the general culture of movies. And I found that fascinating. So I know you have an innate interest in so many African American and black stories, yet you wouldn't even know about most of them if people are marketing towards demographics alone and not sensibilities.

*Catherine Paura (38:01):

That's right. And that's becoming increasingly important as the audiences become more segmented. And when we think about movies today, we have to think about where we're going to watch them and how are we going to get people to go to the theater? Because we want people to go to the movie theaters, to watch films. But if they're not going to the movie theater, how do we get them at least to watch them on the streaming services?

*Kevin Goetz (38:27):

I contend that the level of quality has taken even a more important seat today. Because nobody wants to watch a mediocre, or even a dare I say very good movie. It has to be great on any platform, whether it's a movie theater or on a service. It has to have a certain level of quality and word, word of mouth, period. Full stop.

Catherine Paura (38:54):

I completely agree. I completely agree. Of course.

Kevin Goetz (38:56):

So what's happening? What's going to happen to our industry, say in the next five years? Do you have any sort of prognostications, some vision that you can offer?

Catherine Paura (39:05):

Yeah, I mean I do always have theories. You know, I mean, I always have my theories.

Kevin Goetz (39:09):

I do.

*Catherine Paura (39:10):

You know, one of the things that I think will most likely occur is I think there will continue to be a shrinking of the theatrical audience. It's not going to be a disappearance, but I think it will be a shrinking of the theatrical audience. And I think there are many, many complicated reasons for that. But one of the reasons is, I think as the boomers get older, and they're almost the last generation that are completely habituated to go into the movies because we didn't have many other choices. We went to the movies and we read a book because our parents had one little TV and they controlled it. Now, when I think about the opportunity that people have to watch entertainment, if you can save a lot of money and stay home and not pay a babysitter and not pay for parking and not go out to eat. As a friend of mine said, her millennial daughter, she stays home. She rolls up into her PJ's on a Friday night with her husband. They call DoorDash or whatever Uber Eats and they, you know, they have a great meal sitting at home in front of their a hundred inch TV or whatever the largest TV is that you can get. And I think the bottom line, because I could go on and on and on, is habits have changed. And I think Covid ushered in even more rapidly the change in habits.

Kevin Goetz (40:36):

It didn't cause it, I like to say no, but it accelerated it.

Catherine Paura (40:40):

Accelerated it. It absolutely accelerated it because we were going there.

Kevin Goetz (40:45):

Yeah. There's no question. And I had conducted a very big study in 2019, which we presented in January of 20 that was very prescient, very much a predictor of what was going to happen by 2030, let's say. Mm-hmm <affirmative>. I was about to say within the next 10 years.

Catherine Paura (41:04):

Mm-hmm <affirmative>.

Kevin Goetz (41:05):

Which essentially is happening now five years later. And I believe that because of the pandemic and the effects of that, it accelerated and exacerbated what was already there.

Catherine Paura (41:18):

That's exactly correct.

Kevin Goetz (41:19):

I have a question for you. I was going to ask you, Catherine, if you could say there was one mistake, and I ask many of my guests this question. One mistake you made in your, it could be your life or your career, that you, first of all, what was the biggest mistake you made? And then I'm going to ask you, what did you learn from it?

Catherine Paura (41:43):

I think one of the things that I would consider a big mistake is in the early days of NRG, I didn't take any time for myself and I just wore myself out. And it's very bad. And I had a friend, some of your listeners might remember her, I don't know if people have short memories, but her name was Marty Morans.

Kevin Goetz (42:03):

Paramount.

*Catherine Paura (42:03):

And she died in 1990 of brain cancer at 41 years old. Oh. And I went out to lunch with her in July. She died in August. And we went out to eat. I picked her up. She was in terrible shape and she was apologizing because she couldn't hold her floor. I said, please Marty, it's, it's so unnecessary. Just let's have a little chat or whatever. I said, I mean, I was devastated of course. And she said to me, and I have chills telling you this, she said, Catherine, when you're dying, you'll never wish that you had worked one more day. And I have never gotten a greater gift than that. And I started to take vacations. It was…

Kevin Goetz (42:50):

Wow.

Catherine Paura (42:51):

Uhhuh <affirmative>. I was 40 years old and I started to take vacations. Now I didn't take very long vacations back in the day. And I was constantly on the phone. But I did start to take some time for myself. And that serves me well to this day when I think about what Marty said, you will never wish that you had worked one more day when you're dying.

Kevin Goetz (43:15):

Beautiful. Incredible advice. You and your sister, Angela lost your sister. I loved Gracie.

Catherine Paura (43:26):

She was your favorite.

Kevin Goetz (43:27):

<laugh>. I know, but that's okay. You're all my favorites. Gracie and I had a certain kind of, what do you call it, <inaudible>, je ne sais quois.

Catherine Paura (43:34):

The two of you were great friends and you had so much fun together.

Kevin Goetz (43:38):

Oh, we always danced together at…

Catherine Paura (43:40):

I know

Kevin Goetz (43:40):

Bar mitzvahs and weddings and all sorts of things.

Catherine Paura (43:43):

I know it was the best. The best.

Kevin Goetz (43:43):

And I remember flying in for her funeral because she meant so much to me. Mm-hmm <affirmative>. She was so special. And it only brought you and Angela, who is your marvelous younger sister, together. Even closer, you've been great partners in business and in life. What's that secret about?

Catherine Paura (44:00):

I think one of the things I joke and I say is my good nature <laugh>. Angela says it.

Kevin Goetz (44:06):

Because, and Angela says, no, it's my good nature.

Catherine Paura (44:09):

No, she says she knows who the boss is.

Kevin Goetz (44:11):

Wait, what does Angela say?

Catherine Paura (44:13):

That she knows who the boss is.

Kevin Goetz (44:14):

Ah, very good, smart lady.

Catherine Paura (44:17):

Yes. But I think really what it is at particularly at this point, and you know, after having lost Gracie, which, you know, we, we don't get over. We still haven't gotten over.

Kevin Goetz (44:27):

And you never will.

Catherine Paura (44:28):

Never will. No. And when you walked into that funeral home, I mean, I was just so moved. I was weeping.

Kevin Goetz (44:37):

It's important to show up, isn't it? I mean.

Catherine Paura (44:39):

Yes, it is.

Kevin Goetz (44:40):

It's important to show up. And my dad who passed away this year also showed up, if you remember, with me. Because he also, we've, our families have spent so many times together over the years, Christmases, New Year's. Oh so much fun. Pool parties. And let this be a lesson to everyone because it piggybacks kind of what you were saying about us. And we go back 40 years, we worked together in different capacities. You were my boss. I was your boss. Which was a great and scary prospect.

Catherine Paura (45:11):

He's so funny. <laugh>,

Kevin Goetz (45:13):

I did that with Bob Levin too. When I first saw him, I was sitting behind my desk and I said, Bob, I, I can't sit behind my desk. I have to let you sit behind my desk and I'm going to, I swear to God it's true. <laugh>. It is an absolutely true story. We revered him. Right? He was one of our biggest clients.

Catherine Paura (45:27):

No, I know. Listen, I know.

Kevin Goetz (45:28):

But there's something to be said about this podcast, for example, where we focus almost less on the business and more on us and our personal, because that's really the connection and what matters in life, I think. And I know you do too.

Catherine Paura (45:45):

Of course I do. You know I do.

Kevin Goetz (45:48):

Catherine, before we break, I would be remiss if we didn't talk about your coaching career, which is sort of your third act, if you will, career wise. And you are so good at what you do. I know I've sent you a number of clients and you've had great success with them. You know, executive coaching and imparting all the wisdom that you've acquired and are able to then give back. How did that come to be? How did you, or when did you say, I think I want to be an executive life coach and inspiration to others?

Catherine Paura (46:24):

Thank you for asking about what I'm doing now. I mean, I really couldn't bear the thought of retirement. I still can't bear the thought of it.

Kevin Goetz (46:31):

Oh, you're never retiring.

Catherine Paura (46:32):

No, I'll never retire. I mean, it's just.

Kevin Goetz (46:33):

Nor will I, I don't even know what that word means.

Catherine Paura (46:36):

No, it's an ugly word. It really is an ugly word, I think. But I thought, what am I going to do when I leave la when I leave the business? And one of the things I thought, there are actually two things I thought I would do. One is that I would become a professional coach. And, you know, coaching, I hate the word coaching.

Kevin Goetz (46:53):

Sorry, before you go into it, what was the other thing?

Catherine Paura (46:55):

Yeah. Oh two, become a teacher of English as a second language.

Kevin Goetz (47:00):

Oh, I thought you were going to say run for public office, which you also.

Catherine Paura (47:03):

Oh, I did that too while I forgot I did that in New Jersey.

Kevin Goetz (47:07):

Okay.

Catherine Paura (47:07):

Okay. Yes. I ran as, as a Democrat for Ocean County Commissioner.

Kevin Goetz (47:12):

Twice, which is the most red county in all of New Jersey, by the way. God bless you.

Catherine Paura (47:16):

My, I nearly lost my life doing it. But that's certain, I mean, people were off me. So I, I did teach English as a second language and, and the school district here has, I've gotten to know some of the people and they want me to come and do it again.

Kevin Goetz (47:28):

So you did work in the prison system, I want to say.

Catherine Paura (47:31):

Yes. And I worked, which I really, really.

Kevin Goetz (47:33):

Which, very impressive.

Catherine Paura (47:35):

Oh my God. I worked at a maximum security prison in New York State called Bedford Hills.

Kevin Goetz (47:40):

With women, men, both?

Catherine Paura (47:42):

Women, women.

Kevin Goetz (47:43):

I'm going to go on a limb and say that that had a profound effect on why you decided to be a life coach.

Catherine Paura (47:50):

Yes, yes.

Kevin Goetz (47:52):

It had to. How could it not?

*Catherine Paura (47:53):

Of course it does. Of course it does. And I decided to become a coach because over the years, so many people have said I've been so helpful to them. And so I took a very serious course. It was four modules and it was over a year. And I got my International Coaching Federation certificate, which is the gold standard for coaching around the world. ICF. Then of course I took continuing education units. I took at Harvard Extension, I took a leadership course, mastery in leadership coaching. I took psychology for coaches and I've just finished neuroscience and coaching and they have all really added to my coaching practice and made me a better coach. I've worked with all kinds of people. I've worked with college students going into the workforce.

Kevin Goetz (48:42):

Oh, oh, that's interesting.

Catherine Paura (48:44):

Yeah. People recovering from addiction.

Kevin Goetz (48:46):

Ooh.

Catherine Paura (48:46):

I've worked with C-suite executives, I've worked with middle managers who want to either do better or transform in some way or find a new job. So it's great.

Kevin Goetz (48:58):

How do people get in touch with you if they, do you have a, a business name that you are going?

Catherine Paura (49:03):

Sistina coaching, LLC.

Kevin Goetz (49:06):

Sistina, like the Sistine Chapel?

*Catherine Paura (49:08):

Yes. And the reason why I did that, because I wanted to harken back to my Italian heritage and Sistina to me is, you know, it's art and art. We are all art, we're all, we all create our own lives. We all paint our own pictures, so to speak. We are all creative in our own way. Doesn't have to be where, you know, Leonardo da Vincis, but we are all creative. We create our own lives. So I thought Sistina was a way of communicating that.

Kevin Goetz (49:38):

Beautifully said, beautifully said. Catherine, you are a treasure and beyond important in my life. I mean, when my mom passed away, you were, I think the first call I made.

Catherine Paura (49:49):

Oh, Kevin, I'll never forget that. I can see myself, I can see myself.

Kevin Goetz (49:54):

Yeah.

Catherine Paura (49:54):

Answering that.

*Kevin Goetz (49:54):

And when your mother died, I remember Joe writing the memo to everyone and it was so devastating. because you know, we were starting to lose people close to us. I know. In that way. I know. So I just want to say thank you for teaching me so much. Thank you for enlightening and bringing so much to the industry that you love because you made a tremendous impact on the movie business and on my particular area, which is research and strategy.

Catherine Paura (50:25):

Well, I want to say that I am so very proud of you and I think it's wonderful what you've been able to achieve. And I think that it's so glorious, it's so fantastic. And as someone whom I think of sometimes as my little brother or this kid I've hung out with on the steps, <laugh> kid and a smart man, you did a whole lot with your life and as I say, I am really proud of you.

Kevin Goetz (50:53):

Thank you so much, Catherine. To our listeners, I hope you enjoyed our interview today. For other stories like this one, please check out my book, Audienceology at Amazon or through my website at KevinGoetz360.com. You can also always follow me on my social media. Next time on Don't Kill the Messenger, I'll welcome director, writer, and producer, Brad Furman. Until then, I'm Kevin Goetz and to you, our listeners, I appreciate you being part of the movie making process. Your opinions matter.

Host: Kevin Goetz
Guest: Catherine Paura
Producer: Kari Campano
Writers: Kevin Goetz, Darlene Hayman, and Kari Campano
Audio Engineer: Gary Forbes (DG Entertainment)