Podcast: Don't Kill the Messenger with Movie Research Expert Kevin Goetz
Guest: Director/Producer/Writer, Brad Furman
Interview Transcript:

Announcer (00:02):

There's a little-known part of Hollywood that most people are not aware of, known as the audience test preview. The book Audienceology reveals this for the first time. Our podcast series, Don't Kill the Messenger, brings this book to life, taking a peek behind the curtain. And now join author and entertainment research expert, Kevin Goetz.

Kevin Goetz (00:23):

Hi everyone. I'm going to do something a little bit different today in terms of my opening. Usually I introduce the guest and we go right into the conversation. But I was so struck by a letter that my guest today wrote. He wrote it after the death of one of our greatest filmmakers, John Singleton, someone I've had the pleasure and honor to work with for many years. And he died far too early. And I think this embodies who my guest is today and why I've asked him to read the letter that he crafted. Take a listen.

Brad Furman (01:04):

Dear John, I was 24 years old, new to Los Angeles and living on a friend's couch. Tyrese, Tyrese Gibson, Reese to me came by the apartment. The only thing I directed was a short film, Fast forward, you are a larger than life cinematic hero. Boyz in the Hood was eye opening and inspiring. I saw Higher Learning and Poetic Justice the night they opened these movies. Reaffirmed. There were stories being told in cinema that personally spoke to me. Reese called you up. Little did I know you were en route to pick him up to go out for the night. Reese got you up to the apartment saying he had to see my short film even though he had already seen it. Reese always had my back. You were gracious and kind so you sat on the couch to watch it. I wasn't nervous. I was petrified, but I played it cool.

(01:49):

You had these super thick glasses on. You sat back on the couch, super chill and watched. I couldn't even watch the film. I just watched you. I couldn't believe we were even in the same room and you were watching something I directed. I couldn't tell what you were thinking. Then about a few minutes into the film, the gunshots went off and you jumped out of your seat, screamed whoa and moved literally two inches from the TV for the rest of the three minutes of the movie. You stayed right there to the end. My eyes started to well up and I was trying not to cry. I knew in that singular moment that I could make movies. That if you, one of my cinematic heroes could validate my efforts, then I could do this. You've forever changed my life in that moment. You've been with me throughout my journey as a filmmaker and I will always owe you a debt of gratitude.

(02:34):

You are a gem of a human, a brilliant filmmaker, a true pioneer for filmmaking your race and culture. You never knew how in awe I was of you and your talent. Or maybe you did. You are super smart. You walk on water and still do. I'm heartbroken. Your passing is a loss to this world. Your art will live on forever. I love you John. I thank you. I can't believe you are gone, too soon. Rest in peace. Love your fan and friend, Brad Furman. That was hard to read. John was really important to me and to a lot of people.

Kevin Goetz (03:07):

And to a lot of people. You are such a special man. I really adore you and I thank you. You too. Thank you. And thank you for reading that because what, to me that letter signifies is the gratitude, a tenet that I live by, and a sense of getting that aha moment, that validation from a hero that I can do this <laugh> and boy did you do it.

Brad Furman (03:35):

Thank you. 

Kevin Goetz (03:35):

You've got such wonderful credits. We're going to talk about several of them. Before we sort of get into those, I'd like to just ask what informed the younger Brad in Lafayette Hill outside of Philadelphia?

Brad Furman (03:48):

Yeah. Yeah. Born and raised.

Kevin Goetz (03:50):

You went through the school system there. Did you love movies as a kid?

Brad Furman (03:55):

I was obsessed with movies as a kid. I don't know why. I guess maybe just the nature of my mother and taking me to museums and different places, we would go see art house movies as well as the big movies in the theaters.

Kevin Goetz (04:09):

Which movie had a big initial impact on you?

Brad Furman (04:13):

My Left Foot. Yeah. How old were you? I don't know.

Kevin Goetz (04:16):

Like 10 ish

Brad Furman (04:17):

Probably. Yeah.

Kevin Goetz (04:18):

Incredible. First of all, your mother, her name is Ellen.

Brad Furman (04:21):

Yeah.

Kevin Goetz (04:21):

She's also a writer.

Brad Furman (04:22):

Uhhuh <affirmative>.

Kevin Goetz (04:23):

What a beautiful thing that she exposed you to My Left Foot at such a young age.

Brad Furman (04:30):

Yeah. I felt like we saw everything, but now that I'm probably much more of a cinephile, I realized like I wasn't watching. I do now and I have, but like not everything. And when I went to film school, which I transferred, I didn't fit in because I realized all the kids were trying to fit in and I was just trying to be myself and all the kids they would say, what's your favorite film? And I would say like Rocky or Rudy 'cause those stories of striving and goals. And these kids would say like eight and a half. And I didn't know Fellini when I went to.

Kevin Goetz (05:01):

Well I would think you did because of My Left Foot, you know?

Brad Furman (05:03):

Well you would think so, but there was a lot of, that's my point. There's so much extraordinary work out there. I saw many but not all.

Kevin Goetz (05:09):

And that, wait a minute, that is another thing that I just want to say to our listeners that embodies Brad Furman, which is Hyphenate director, which is how I really know you, but producer and writer and the idea that you can jump from one to the other pretty facilely. And also that you go from a movie to a music video. Most start with music videos and then move to movies. But you've gone back and forth. So that's a very interesting assessment of who you are.

Brad Furman (05:39):

I love music. I think anything I do in life, I've music for all of us demarcates time and a place. Music is like time travel.

Kevin Goetz (05:47):

Yeah, like your first kiss, your first.

Brad Furman (05:50):

Whatever takes you there. And for me, Christopher Cross comes on, Sailing and I remember holding the record in my hand at my grandmother's, my nanny Dorothy.

Kevin Goetz (05:58):

I had a Nana Doris.

Brad Furman (06:00):

Oh wow.

Kevin Goetz (06:00):

I just heard sailing takes me away.

Brad Furman (06:02):

That's that was, that was.

Kevin Goetz (06:04):

Oh, and you just transported.

Brad Furman (06:06):

Yes.

Kevin Goetz (06:07):

God, yes. Oh my God.

Brad Furman (06:07):

Very much so.

Kevin Goetz (06:08):

Tell me about NYU. You transferred there from where?

Brad Furman (06:11):

Emory.

Kevin Goetz (06:12):

Oh, in Atlanta?

Brad Furman (06:14):

Yeah. My first love probably, I guess 'cause of my father was basketball.

Kevin Goetz (06:18):

Were you going to play?

Brad Furman (06:19):

Yeah, I went to play. I would say if it wasn't for basketball and my drive and sort of fight to go against the odds, meaning constantly it was you're too little, you're too skinny. But then it was you're white and you're Jewish and you never.

Kevin Goetz (06:34):

I'm thinking of Doc in Westside Story, saying you're never going to play what? You couldn't play basketball?

Brad Furman (06:38):

And my personality was probably very genetic was if you told me I couldn't, well I found a way. So how tall are you? Five 11. And you played college ball? Yeah, I did.

Kevin Goetz (06:50):

Incredible. And so you were there for one year and said, I don't want to do this anymore.

Brad Furman (06:55):

No, I'll take you back 'cause I think it's always interesting color. I tried out for the Maccabi team for basketball at 13 and I actually didn't make it. I was chosen as an alternate. It's the Junior Olympics.

Kevin Goetz (07:08):

Oh yeah.

Brad Furman (07:08):

Right. So but at 13 you're playing on the 15-year-old team. So that's why I was an alternate. So I made the soccer team, funny fact, David Fenkel who started A24, made the soccer team and we became best friends when we were 13 on the soccer team 'cause we traveled together to Detroit for the Olympics.

Kevin Goetz (07:27):

Are you still?

Brad Furman (07:28):

No, I mean we're still friendly and stuff. And we went to, well I actually transferred high schools 'cause of him. I had a very unique experience, which we can get into, but I'll lead you to my NYU years. Tried out for Maccabi at the time. Became an alternate on the basketball team but then made the soccer team didn't want to not play 'cause if it's alternate you might not get selected to go. So I chose to go to soccer. That's where David and I became really close friends and he said, Hey, come to Friend Central, another Quaker school. We need kids to come play basketball, soccer, other stuff. My parents were actually supportive of me transferring, leaving, et cetera. My whole life, everything was basketball because everybody told me you can't, I got into a program, which is why I brought up the Maccabi, is run by a guy named Sam Ryans and he brought inner city kids and suburban kids from Philadelphia together. So I grew up playing with Kobe Bryant, Rasheed Wallace, Alvin Williams, Catino Mobley. Wow. A lot of these greats from that year in Philadelphia that my friends and I, and you know, we all played together in the Sunny Hill League and the Alva Thorpe League and out in North. So it was that experience that led me to continue to strive. And Emory was a school where my dad's two best friend’s kids went. It was warm, I always liked warm weather. The girls were pretty, everything sort of seemed to fit.

Kevin Goetz (08:46):

Another thing you liked.

Brad Furman (08:47):

Right. It all just seemed to make sense for me. But I was there a year and the segregation was extreme and just Atlanta by nature, the school by nature, it really replicated the culture of the city.

Kevin Goetz (09:00):

Sure.

Brad Furman (09:00):

And I felt.

Kevin Goetz (09:02):

We're talking early nineties.

*Brad Furman (09:03):

Yeah. I didn't fit in because I didn't grow up with that segregation. From what I was just sharing with you. Fraternity culture was really big. I didn't fit in that either. I got injured and I couldn't walk for like six weeks. Oh my. I was in like this weird traction and I had to like dig myself out of a hole. And I ended up seven, eight months later playing in a game and pick up 'cause I would just go to the gym every day. And these kids from NYU came down and one guy, Stan Eli, who I'll never forget, another sort of prominent figure in my life said to me, who are you? Like why don't you play for Emory? And I said, well I got hurt. I redshirted, I'm not playing. I was a little like, didn't know what was going on in my life. He said, man, we could use you at NYU, similar to Fenkel. And I ended up applying to transfer. But the key was they had a film school and it, that was the moment in time where I decided to transfer my love and passion of basketball into filmmaking. And it was sort of the, the concept of discipline, hard work, outworking everyone. Putting more hours in the gym.

Kevin Goetz (10:03):

And people telling you no.

Brad Furman (10:04):

Right. People telling me no. Like when I told people I want.

Kevin Goetz (10:06):

That's the personality. You're like, well I'll show you all.

Brad Furman (10:08):

Yeah. Being a filmmaker, I was told like only Olympians like that. The percentage of that is like who becomes a filmmaker on every movie there's one <laugh>. And I didn't understand what I was choosing to do at the time, but that ultimately led me to NYU where ironically and interestingly for me, I didn't fit in. The nose rings, the piercings, the colored hair, the shaved I, I was not that person. Tattoos weren't as big then becoming bigger. But you could see my classroom and I was the odd guy out and that was an odd place to be. And I also felt deeply insecure because as I said, I was like a Rocky Rudy kid. I wasn't the Fellini kid. And so that made me sort of go inside myself and feel really insecure and like I didn't fit in.

Kevin Goetz (10:51):

So you applied to the film school and got in?

Brad Furman (10:54):

Yeah. Based on what? It was very odd based on a letter that I wrote and based off all this photography and art that I had done through the years, it was really weird because I had my parents running around like finding stuff and photographing stuff for me and sending it. They wanted me I think 'cause I was different. I wasn't a little Spielberg kid.

Kevin Goetz (11:13):

Your parents didn't give you a movie camera and you were running around.

Brad Furman (11:16):

Exactly. Which is what a lot of their applicants probably were.

Kevin Goetz (11:19):

Very interesting. And I tell people that a lot with all kinds of schools and all kinds of majors, which is people want, you know, diversity comes in so many ways, right? People want diversity of worldviews and of perspectives. And of course if you're going to be a filmmaker, that's very cool. And I want to share something with you now. I can't wait to do this and you might know this already, but Screen Engine, my company conducted the, I think most comprehensive study ever conducted on film schools. And we partnered with The Wrap and NYU came in number one.

Brad Furman (11:55):

Oh wow.

Kevin Goetz (11:56):

For the very first time. It's almost always been AFI or USC.

Brad Furman (12:02):

Yeah.

Kevin Goetz (12:02):

The top 10 were pretty much what they've been. But I was always enamored with NYU personally, very funny. And I said, how could they not be number one ever? It has traditionally been done by an interview process in terms of ranking film schools. And I said, why don't we add a more quantitative approach to that? Let the film schools fill out questionnaires and we can rate and weight the data points. For example, you have a graduate program and an undergraduate program. The facilities, who are your alumni, what kind of subsidies do you get to make films? Those sorts of things. And NYU comes in this year as number one for the very first time. And I am thrilled about it. I'm just really excited about it and I know you are too hearing that.

Brad Furman (12:52):

Yeah, I'm incredibly proud. Probably the most inspiring thing about being there, which may seem bizarre was the posters on the walls, when you saw the Spike Lee poster or the Scorsese poster or the Oliver Stone poster. I thought that never even seemed achievable at that time in my life to make movies at that level.

Kevin Goetz (13:10):

Your first movie was?

Brad Furman (13:12):

The Take with John Leguizamo.

Kevin Goetz (13:14):

And how did you get it financed or made?

Brad Furman (13:17):

I grew up MTV generation striving not actually to make features 'cause it didn't even seem possible, but to make music videos. And right at the time that I actually started getting traction a very little bit, I got a 50 Cent and G Unit job and I got some job out of Australia. The music business imploded with the likes of Napster. Oh, Napster. Yeah. Yeah. And everything was just completely in folding on itself. And I came to a daunting realization that a friend of mine had said to me in life, if you're going to do one thing, do it really well and then you can do other things. And so I applied that simple knowledge to okay, well instead of striving to be a director, globally and direct music videos, commercials.

Kevin Goetz (14:01):

Let me, let me show people I can do the craft.

Brad Furman (14:02):

I want to do one thing well, which is make a feature. And actually David Irving, Amy Irving's brother was my professor at NYU and showed.

Kevin Goetz (14:12):

And very famous father.

Brad Furman (14:14):

You’re right.

Kevin Goetz (14:15):

I forgot.

Brad Furman (14:16):

Theater. Yes, you're right. Which just totally, which was the grandfather of the father.

Kevin Goetz (14:19):

How that…

Brad Furman (14:19):

I don't actually,

Kevin Goetz (14:20):

How I pulled that one out.

Brad Furman (14:21):

Yeah, I said you're amazing on the details of knowledge. Wow. That's a good one too.

Kevin Goetz (14:26):

So you were saying.

*Brad Furman (14:29):

Amy's brother showed me El Mariachi and that was the first movie I think that I know of that had a director's commentary and Robert Rodriguez had done a book and I remember this, everybody was like legendary sold his body to science. He got like $27,000 and that's how he made his movie. So I set my sights on short of selling my body to science. I'm going to do one thing well, which is make my feature. And I had Justin Marks who recently won the Emmys for Shogun. I was a friend with and mentoring 'cause I was a little bit older. I was working as Julia Roberts assistant and…

Kevin Goetz (15:02):

Oh God, wait a minute. You just dropped that one in. Wow.

Brad Furman (15:06):

Yeah.

Kevin Goetz (15:07):

Okay, keep going.

*Brad Furman (15:08):

And he was at Columbia University and we had a screenplay that we wanted to make that we still endeavored to make. But as things had it, I was playing basketball, connecting for you at a game in UCLA that had a lot of former pros in it, a lot of different people. And I met a guy who played in the NFL 'cause a lot of the NFL and NBA guys are friendly, you know, just post athletes in their lives. And one of them wanted to be an actor and I had done a very sort of large due diligence on the business and how to get a feature made. And I gave him a sales pitch was if you give me, I can't believe I'm saying this on air, but I will. I said, if you give X amount of dollars, whatever you can afford to give me, we will go, we'll put it in escrow, we will go to the agencies. And I had worked at one prior, and I said, we will tell them that we have the movie fully funded and we will flash the cash for the actor that we want. And then once we get the actor, we'll go raise the money and wrap all the money around the actor. It's genius. A genius actor. Genius. I dunno if it's genius.

Kevin Goetz (16:05):

Oh my lord. No, I mean listeners, you gotta be creative here. What can I tell you? I gotta take a break. When we come back, we gotta get into some of these things. You just throw in Julia Roberts' assistant <laugh>. We'll be back in a moment. Listeners, The Motion Picture and Television Fund is a nonprofit charitable organization that supports working and retired members of the entertainment community. This wonderfully run organization offers assistance for living and aging with dignity and purpose in the areas of health and social services, including temporary financial assistance, case management, and residential living, and has been a crucial lifeline to thousands during and beyond the strikes. To learn more, visit mptf.com. Please join me in helping others in our industry during times of need. There are so many ways to offer support and get involved. Thank you. We're back with Brad Furman. Brad, you were Julia Roberts’ assistant. That came outta nowhere. Tell us how that came to be.

Brad Furman (17:22):

I was striving to be in the film business.

Kevin Goetz (17:26):

How old are you at this point?

Brad Furman (17:28):

I was extraordinarily young. I was 20, 21.

Kevin Goetz (17:32):

So you just graduated Tisch?

Brad Furman (17:34):

I just graduated. I had worked during college for American Journal and Nancy Glass. Nancy was my first mentor. She was a national on air personality. That was the sister show to Inside Edition, which was a King World production. I did that through college for two years. Oh, while you were in college? Yeah. And then I worked for Cis Corman who was running Barbara Streisand's company and Cis obviously is a legend in casting and Hollywood. And I worked for David Brown who was formerly Zana’s partner who obviously found.

Kevin Goetz (18:02):

When did you do all these things?

Brad Furman (18:03):

Oh, that was all college for me.

Kevin Goetz (18:04):

Like internships?

Brad Furman (18:05):

That's the beauty of NYU. Yeah. I convinced NYU to break their program to allow me to receive credit for working for these people. They had a program that was like that, but I was a bit more aggressive.

Kevin Goetz (18:17):

Yes, of course you were. No shit, I mean, come on. Based on what you just, you know, after everything you just said.

Brad Furman (18:22):

After my one year plus of basketball and then after basketball was over, I had more time and so I dedicated it to pursuing filmmaking.

Kevin Goetz (18:30):

But what again, lesson to the listeners who are coming up in the world is work, work, work. Absorb, absorb, absorb, get as much knowledge as you can.

Brad Furman (18:42):

Yes.

Kevin Goetz (18:43):

I am with you. If you have a breathing hour, an extra breathing hour in the day.

Brad Furman (18:48):

Sure.

Kevin Goetz (18:48):

Be curious and learn.

Brad Furman (18:50):

Well that's what I learned from my, from basketball.

Kevin Goetz (18:52):

Oh, that's great. It's great.

Brad Furman (18:53):

When people went on vacation, I went to the gym. So I took that exact model and I just tried to replicate it.

Kevin Goetz (18:59):

By the way, when I was an actor and I was not doing a commercial or doing a show, I would work survival jobs because I had hours in my day and I worked in a video store and I sold furniture and I did those. Amazing. I did because that's what I did. And I sock the money away, sock the money away by the way to say travel to Europe and so I could learn.

Brad Furman (19:26):

Yeah.

Kevin Goetz (19:26):

And grow. Everything had a reason to get to the next thing.

Brad Furman (19:30):

Yeah.

Kevin Goetz (19:30):

So you and I are cut from a similar cloth in that way, aren't we?

*Brad Furman (19:34):

Yeah. A purpose. Cis Corman said to me, if you want to learn the movie business, you have to work in an agency no matter what you choose to do in your professional career.

Kevin Goetz (19:44):

Why did she say that?

Brad Furman (19:45):

Why?

Kevin Goetz (19:46):

Because I never worked in an agency, for example.

Brad Furman (19:47):

I think she felt that the, and she's correct. The agencies are the hub of the whole business and they control all the information and they control. Well <laugh>, not all of it. <laugh>. We agree.

Kevin Goetz (20:02):

And so my, it was wonderful advice. My agency business was working early at NRG.

Brad Furman (20:06):

Yeah.

Kevin Goetz (20:06):

And working on a different kind of currency.

Brad Furman (20:09):

Yeah.

Kevin Goetz (20:09):

Which was really valuable. You know, incredibly valuable. So, so Cis probably wasn't too aware of that, but I point well taken.

Brad Furman (20:17):

She called Bodie Boatwright.

Kevin Goetz (20:19):

Oh.

Brad Furman (20:19):

Bodie.

Kevin Goetz (20:19):

Boatwright. One of the great agents.

Brad Furman (20:21):

Agents. Yeah. Great agents in New York. Yeah. She had Alan Pacula who passed away in that tragic accident.

Kevin Goetz (20:26):

On that was on the LIE wasn't it or something. Mm-hmm

Brad Furman (20:28):

<affirmative>. Jesus. Yeah. So I was integrated into a world where I got in a job for Sue Leibman, who, she's a manager now, but she was Warren Beatty's assistant. She was a booker for SNL. She was a talent agent. But I was in a very small New York office with Sam Cohen, Elaine Goldsmith Thomas, who was representing Julia Roberts.

Kevin Goetz (20:45):

Ah-huh.

Brad Furman (20:47):

Sue Leibman, Andre Eastman, Paul Martino, who did mostly theater at the time.

Kevin Goetz (20:51):

Your life is a series of connecting the dots. <laugh>, I guess that is the leitmotif here. I always try to find that underlying thread that makes your life make sense in a way. And yours is about seizing opportunities, getting to the next connection, finding this person. It's becoming very obvious here.

Brad Furman (21:11):

Well, <laugh> okay, I'll take it. It's incredible. I, I was swimming my way through a river. I dunno if I was going up river, but Elaine, actually…

Kevin Goetz (21:18):

Oh please. That's such false modesty.

Brad Furman (21:20):

No, no, no. Cabaret was happening and Jennifer, Jason Lee was starring in it. And I was very blessed. After my tenure of a year with Sue, I really knew I wanted to be a filmmaker after my tenure of one year at ICM with Sue Leibman. I had spent prior to that, a summer with Andrew Stevens here in Los Angeles.

Kevin Goetz (21:42):

He was making movies.

Brad Furman (21:42):

Yes. B movies. And he made a movie called Steel Shark. We had a family friend who had connected me to Andrew Stevens. I got a job and I came to Los Angeles. I lived in this little empty dorm, meaning they were knocking the dorm down in Westwood. And I was the only tenant. It was very scary and bizarre at such a young age. And I worked for that summer, the summer prior to my ICM job where I got to work on a movie with Gary Busey, Billy Dee Williams, Billy Warlock from Baywatch. And I fell in love.

Kevin Goetz (22:14):

You were PA?

Brad Furman (22:14):

I was not the PA, I was everything. I shot the behind the scenes. I picked up Gary Busey. My stories on that movie are my best Hollywood stories. My time with Billy Dee, my Gary, my stories are unimaginable, they're phenomenal. But it was that job that cemented for me, I want to be a filmmaker. Unabashedly had no idea what it meant. But being on a set made sense to me. 

Kevin Goetz (22:38):

Again, I want to bring this full circle for a moment. This ties into the letter. You're around 24 years old now and you're watching movies. Am I correct here? In terms of the timing, the homage to John Singleton. So now you're seeing his movies, you are getting this experience, you're making this connection of, and you really wanted to be a filmmaker.

Brad Furman (22:59):

Yeah, those years, 'cause I would say Higher Learning, poetic justice, I was probably 19, 20. So I was in New York City when I saw those films in the theater. I was working at King World Productions with Nancy Glass. I spent the summer at the same age going to Los Angeles to work one summer with Andrew on Steel Sharks. So I sort of cemented all these things. So Cis had said to me, 'cause I had kept a relationship with her after I worked at Barwood, which was Barbara Streisand's company, go work in an agency. So in doing so, after my tenure of a year with Sue, I said I want to be a filmmaker. And Jennifer Jason Leigh, who was Sue's client, I handled all her tickets for cabaret all the house seats. She offered me a job to move to LA to be her assistant. Toni Howard called me and offered me this wonderful opportunity to be on her desk for a year. And then I guess be a junior agent.

Kevin Goetz (23:49):

Toni Howard had so many of the great women. Laura Linney and Gena Rolands.

Brad Furman (23:53):

Yes.

Kevin Goetz (23:54):

Joan Allen.

Brad Furman (23:54):

Yeah. So what's so crazy that you're saying this 'cause Alaine Kashian and Sue Service, Joan Allen and Laura Linney, all these people were on. So basically you had Toni and then you had all these younger women and men servicing these people as well. And forgive me if I get this facts slightly wrong, but I'm pretty sure I'm accurate from my time there. But Elaine Goldsmith Thomas offered me the opportunity to be Julia Roberts’ assistant. So the funny part of this is you never say no to Elaine. When she first asked me…

Kevin Goetz (24:21):

You never say no to Elaine. I love Elaine. Elaine is a tough customer and she's great and she's fair. But never try to bullshit her. That's why we get along so well 'cause we're both so candid with each other.

*Brad Furman (24:36):

I never had a problem with Elaine. I showed up to her office door and she was on a loud call with someone and she snapped at me and said, what are you doing here? Who are you? Is the first time we had ever met. And I was holding a package. She had two assistants 'cause she was a really big deal in the agency and neither of them were there. And I said, you don't have to yell at me. I'm Brad Furman, it's a pleasure to meet you. I'm supposed to bring this to you from Sue. I don't know if it was a script or whatever about something, who knows. And Elaine looked at me for a solid second. And I think she appreciated my self-respect and my dignity. And from that moment forth, we had a wonderful relationship. And she offered me the opportunity to work as Julia Roberts’ assistant. And I politely said, I don't really think that's for me because I don't know what I'm going to do. I want to be a director. I don't want to be an actor. I, and so about two days past that, she came back to me and basically told me, are you a moron? Julia's the biggest movie star of the world. How could you possibly say no to this?

Kevin Goetz (25:35):

Excuse me. I totally agree with Elaine.

Brad Furman (25:38):

Me too. So I took the job. 

Kevin Goetz (25:40):

There you go and how long were you with Julia? A little over three years. What's she like? She was amazing. What makes her amazing?

*Brad Furman (25:47):

When she walks in a room, it is truly her gift as a human being. That aura that you understand. But she's incredibly generous and loving and kind and fun. And that that megawatt smile is very genuine and authentic. And there's a lot of truth behind it as well 'cause we all are not perfect people. So there's real humanity. So when you see that layered into her performances, she has ups and downs like every other person. I'll never forget when I agreed to take the job, I was invited to go to a bowling alley. Benjamin Bratt was Sue Lyman's client and Julia and Benjamin were dating. So I was invited to the bowling alley with Lisa Roberts and all these people. And Julia was so inviting and warm and gracious and in my mind, even though I had met her a handful of times, even though Elaine had advocated I take the job, just the way that Julia was like, come bowl with me. Come here, let's go there. She sees me as an equal and an individual and a human being in a way that gave me a level of peace and comfort that I wasn't like, oh my God, I'm bowling with Julia Roberts. It was like, this is just Julia. And that actually I think set the tone not only for our friendship and working relationship, but for why she's such a special human being. She's very giving and caring of others.

Kevin Goetz (27:04):

And for most of our listeners who have assistance, you know all too well that that relationship is family. You are really personal with each other. I have two amazing assistants, Kathy Manabat for over 30 years. And Sienna Vinchik Walsh who is a Julia Roberts doppelganger. <laugh>. Oh she's lucky then. She looks so similar to Julia I think. Have you ever talked about working together?

Brad Furman (27:31):

Uh, we have not. But always be a dream. We'll put it on the bucket list.

Kevin Goetz (27:35):

If you're listening. Exactly. I'll do it what they call beshert.

Brad Furman (27:38):

Yeah, right.

Kevin Goetz (27:39):

There you go. A match made in heaven here. Well it's not a match made in heaven. It already was a match made in heaven. It's reconnecting. So I just want to now ask you, 'cause we can't leave Cis and Barwood without me asking you about Barbara. What was it like working with Barbara?

Brad Furman (27:53):

So, most of my time was with Cis, but the few times I was at Barbara's house, she was absolutely enchanting and lovely.

Kevin Goetz (28:00):

I've met her a few times. I've worked with her a few times. I found her to be the same, just delightful, comfortable in her skin. Sensitive, curious. Right. And just loving, you know, they say never meet your heroes. And man, when I met her, she exceeded my expectations.

Brad Furman (28:19):

Barbara. She was immensely, immensely gracious.

Kevin Goetz (28:23):

Another great you're working with now, Shirley MacLaine. You just finished a project with Shirley.

Brad Furman (28:28):

Yes.

Kevin Goetz (28:29):

So the name of the movie is People Not Places.

Brad Furman (28:32):

Mm-hmm

Kevin Goetz (28:33):

<affirmative> starring Shirley MacLaine, I think. Colleen Camp.

Brad Furman (28:35):

Yes.

Kevin Goetz (28:36):

Who was a guest. Did you hear Colleen's?

Brad Furman (28:37):

I actually, actually one of, I can't wait to, I have not heard hers yet. I'm really excited.

Kevin Goetz (28:41):

She's amazing. One of my favorite human beings. I was just at a party with her recently because other guests of mine, Paula Wagner and Rick Nicita were married for 40 years and had a party. And it was a marvelous party with wonderful guests. Al Pacino and Michael Mann and Oliver Stone. And Colleen was there and, and I got to see her and it was just beautiful.

Brad Furman (29:03):

Her performance in our little film is exquisite. She was a dream. I, I've known her many years. I was real honored to have her in the film.

Kevin Goetz (29:12):

So talk to me about that movie since it's your latest.

Brad Furman (29:16):

Yeah.

Kevin Goetz (29:18):

You worked on that with Jessica?

Brad Furman (29:20):

Yes.

Kevin Goetz (29:20):

Who is the mother of your daughter, Zion.

Brad Furman (29:22):

Yes.

Kevin Goetz (29:23):

And tell us about it.

*Brad Furman (29:24):

My mother, Ellen Furman, also known as Suki, was a teacher and I guess somewhere in the DNA of it all, she said, I think I can go be a lawyer too. So when I was in my early years, my mom was in law school, became one of the first female litigators and tried huge asbestos cases and a lot of different things at that time. But ultimately went back to her dream of being a writer. And she wrote some books that weren't published, probably still should be. But her short story work became like international award-winning. And therefore she fell into screenwriting through me and she spec’ed the adaptation of her short story people not places into a screenplay. And she handed it to me, right. This is like real Jewish mom. And she said, this is for Shirley MacLaine. And I went, I don't know Shirley MacLaine, <laugh>, I dunno what you want me to do, but the expectation was there and this is your job. Go get it done. So 12 years ago I cold called Jack Giardi and he couldn't have been warmer and more loving to me because of The Lincoln Lawyer. Within a week I ended up with Shirley MacLaine in Malibu. But nobody wanted to make this little small movie. And ultimately it took us 12 years and a lot of unique stuff.

Kevin Goetz (30:34):

Shirley stood by you for 12 years?

Brad Furman (30:36):

Yes. Wow. Always saying she wants my mother's tree.

Kevin Goetz (30:38):

Did you ever meet with her in her place in New Mexico?

Brad Furman (30:41):

No, but recently we've been talking and I told her I'm going to come visit her. I just wanted to spend some time with her. My most beautiful experience working was with Shirley.

Kevin Goetz (30:51):

You mean of all the people you've worked with?

Brad Furman (30:53):

Yeah.

Kevin Goetz (30:54):

Wow.

*Brad Furman (30:55):

Tore my soul out in the most beautiful way ever. She just understands and appreciates the director and the filmmaker. I think because of the nature of working with my mother and because of the challenges that come with that, and also because of the love and the pain from my childhood that makes me the man I am in a beautiful way. Shirley accessed and triggered all of it.

Kevin Goetz (31:20):

And did your mother meet Shirley?

Brad Furman (31:22):

Spent inordinate amounts of time with her.

Kevin Goetz (31:24):

That's what I mean. So she must have been like so proud of, is she still alive?

Brad Furman (31:27):

My mom?

Kevin Goetz (31:28):

Ellen?

*Brad Furman (31:28):

Yes. Yeah. We're living my mom's dream because we're going to finish people not places. Marvelous. But here's the interesting part. Stephen Dorff stars opposite Shirley in the movie. And Steve is this incredible actor who never got the career for whatever the reasons are everybody can theorize. And now he has given a performance that is awe inspiring. But my mom's relationship with Stephen Dorff, as I was watching from the outside, they had this bond and this connection, this mother son thing where I was having a mother son thing with Shirley. So it was such a bizarre thing about how life mimics art and art mimics life. Wow. And we made this little movie on 16 millimeter in Atlantic City and it was an absolute dream of an experience.

Kevin Goetz (32:12):

Wow. What a story.

Brad Furman (32:14):

I've been very blessed with the wonderful people that I've come across in my career. 

Kevin Goetz (32:21):

But all women, and here's the craziness. Let's talk about the craziness.

Brad Furman (32:23):

Yeah.

Kevin Goetz (32:24):

The movies you gravitate toward are like crime dramas and your stars. Most of them are men. Matthew McConaughey, Brian Cranston, Forest Whitaker, John Leguizamo, Jamie Foxx, Jamie Foxx, Robert De Niro. Oh yeah. That young actor. Johnny Depp. So what gives?

Brad Furman (32:47):

It's unbelievable. Johnny Depp, my first meeting with him when you go meet an actor and they're interested maybe an hour, maybe if you're lucky, two. Nine and a half hours.

Kevin Goetz (32:57):

Where'd you meet? At his Melrose place?

Brad Furman (32:58):

Yes, at his office. Nine and a half hours. To the point where I was on the floor playing music for him.

Kevin Goetz (33:03):

I spent a little time in that office with his sister.

Brad Furman (33:05):

Yeah, yeah. Christy, who's a dream. She's a dream. To be involved in a story that would honor Christopher Wallace, aka Biggie, the rapper's life was a tremendous honor for me because of the impact black culture had on me as a child. The impact that Biggie had on me, Tupac, that whole world, to pay homage to his mother and to him and to his life. And to be able to do a full blown two year investigation into the story of Labyrinth, the book by Randall Sullivan, was the honor of a lifetime. And instead of trying to go get every actor to play it, there was this internal guttural feeling that said, Johnny Depp is the guy to play the role. And how in the heck I got to the place to meet with him where we hit it off for nine and a half hours is an unimaginable story in itself. So I'm living the dream. I have Johnny Depp, I have Randall Sullivan who wrote the Labyrinth book. It's being adapted. We have Open Road. Tom Ortenberg's won Academy Awards for Crash, for Spotlight, at Open Road. Everything is aligned. I feel like this is the opportunity. I have my personal understanding of my experience through my culture.

Kevin Goetz (34:12):

Stars align.

*Brad Furman (34:12):

The culture, everything felt right for me. And we spent two years doing a full blown reinvestigation of the murder of Christopher Wallace and we're right positioned into the place where we're going to release the movie. And then Tom comes to me and says, I have a fiduciary responsibility. AMC is telling me that I'm going to have to sell the company and I really want, now Labyrinth, aka City of Lies to come out on 3,500 screens. It was my last Open Road release. And unfortunately what ends up happening is there's an internal conflict between the producer of the movie and Open Road. Time ticks away. And then essentially the company is sold and the new company that bought Open Road within four months declares bankruptcy. And instead of our movie being in the actual bankruptcy, this is where I went from filmmaker to banker, we are not actually in the bankruptcy because Open Road and their partner Miramax and the domestic MG hadn't paid. So we became a party to the bankruptcy and thereby a distressed asset and an Israeli bank. Bank Lumi. And then at the time, all this is unfolding and now I have no domestic distributor. All the stuff…

Kevin Goetz (35:24):

And you’re party to a lawsuit.

Brad Furman (35:26):

Right. <laugh> all this. Exactly.

Kevin Goetz (35:28):

And you’re party to a lawsuit.

*Brad Furman (35:28):

All the stuff on Johnny Depp starts coming out into the press. So he becomes persona non grata. And then this thing that we never heard of called the Pandemic happens. And I'm sitting alone in my home and I have the Poole family whose father is passed away. I have Ms. Wallace calling asking about the movie whose son was murdered. And everybody's asking me when their movie's coming out that's going to tell the truth of their story. So I did the unthinkable, truly I became a banker. My cousin Zach Furman works in distressed assets through a lot of connections. But one guy in particular, Eihud Blyberg, I got into Bank Lumi and I spent 18 months doing nothing other than writing Tin Soldier, curating buyers to ultimately purchase City of Lies and get it out of being a distressed asset. During a time where people didn't want to touch a debt movie and didn't want to touch a movie that in Hollywood, even though they hadn't seen it, they dismissed it as being bad because it was never released.

Kevin Goetz (36:28):

And you did it.

Brad Furman (36:29):

Yes I did. We got it to Saban. And ultimately to be frank, I wasn't like, oh my God, Saban. I was like…

Kevin Goetz (36:36):

But you got it out.

Brad Furman (36:36):

No, I felt they were the right partner and distributor for the time and we got it out. And I really appreciate the hard work Saban did on the movie. And it's a movie that I hope in the lineage of my career people really discover because there's a truth to the film that I think is really important.

Kevin Goetz (36:51):

Fantastic. So talk to me about what is the biggest mistake that you've made in your career and what did you learn from it?

*Brad Furman (37:02):

I don't view life that way because we are defined by things and how we deal with them when they don't go well in life. I'm not someone who places blame on others. I look at myself in these predicaments and situations and try to figure out what could I have done better. It would be very easy to Monday morning quarterback my life and career and say when things got really complicated politically on Runner Runner, which was my first sort of big studio movie. I know everybody thinks Lincoln Lawyer was, but it's made independently at Lakeshore and pushed out through a domestic MG at Lionsgate.

Kevin Goetz (37:33):

And Gary Lucchesi, by the way, was a recent guest.

*Brad Furman (37:37):

Lemme tell you, Gary Lucchesi changed my life and career with a handshake.

Kevin Goetz (37:43):

He's one of my besties. He is. I love that man. I can't say enough about him. And he was executive producer on Wild Iris.

Brad Furman (37:49):

My career was in a very odd place because I shot The Take in 2005. It wasn't released till 2007. So it took two years to find distribution and then Clint Culpepper. Actually no 'cause of editorial and lack of funds. Sony bought it, we made it for 800,000. Sony bought it for 2.4 million. I met Clint Culpepper. Clint Culpepper put that movie into Toronto. He put it in the theaters for just two small theaters. 

Kevin Goetz (38:16):

Call out to you, Clint.

*Brad Furman (38:16):

Yeah, Clint was amazing. And he told me in the, in the editorial said number one is about getting number two. And I didn't understand what he meant but he was trying to say build a career and looking back, he was really right. And it was wonderful advice. And Clint had been bringing me a lot of Screen Gems movies and I felt in my DNA I didn't want to be into perception of Hollywood and what that was. So I waited and waited and waited and then finally Lincoln Lawyer landed on my desk.

Kevin Goetz (38:44):

How did it land on your desk?

Brad Furman (38:46):

I think Tommy Lee Jones was directing it. I was told Tommy and Tom Rosenberg, I think weren't a perfect fit and Tommy was pulled outta the project. And my agent at the time, Stuart Manashil, I believe was in Tommy's life. And Tom was notorious for giving young directors shots.

Kevin Goetz (39:02):

Was in Tommy Lee Jones' life, or was in Tom Rosenberg's life.

Brad Furman (39:06):

Stuart Manashil I believe was in Tommy Lee Jones's life.

Kevin Goetz (39:09):

Got it.

Brad Furman (39:09):

And he was an agent at CA.

Kevin Goetz (39:10):

So he knew about what was going on.

Brad Furman (39:12):

Right. And I had actually met Matthew McConaughey on a project called Bone Game.

Kevin Goetz (39:17):

Was Matthew attached yet?

Brad Furman (39:19):

Yes, I believe he was, yes. Yeah, he had to be. So RKO was making Bone Game. I met with Matthew on it. For whatever reason, Matthew didn't make Bone Game. And ultimately I was like the perfect sort of fit because I had met Matthew, so he liked me and we were going to make a movie together, which didn't get made. And Stuart was in the right position with the information. And I got put in, it was weeks and weeks of interviews with Tom Rosenberg. But my first meeting, I remember having read the script the night before. I was actually going through a terrible breakup at the time. So it's just a moment in time. Those things affect you. And I remember sitting in the lobby of Lakeshore and I'm not one, we all get nervous at times, but I'm not one to get nervous in the situations.

*(40:00):

And I got overcome with anxiety a little bit just due to the fact that I thought I was so right for the movie. And all of a sudden this man walks down the hall and introduces himself, Gary Lucchesi, and reaches out and shakes my hand. And he's so warm. Literally in his energy and his touch, all that anxiety went away. And I walked down the hall and walked into Tom Rosenberg's office. And the way that the meeting situated, you can't see Tom's eyes in the meeting 'cause the light is reflecting off of his glasses. And Tom is a very stern firm, strong individual and he's grilling you like this. And I was so relaxed and I was so at ease and I was so confident.

Kevin Goetz (40:40):

'cause Gary put at ease.

Brad Furman (40:41):

Yes, a thousand percent changed my whole life.

Kevin Goetz (40:44):

He was a wonderful agent before he was president of Paramount.

Brad Furman (40:48):

Yeah.

Kevin Goetz (40:48):

He had an illustrious career.

Brad Furman (40:49):

I always said he was Tom's consiglieri.

Kevin Goetz (40:52):

Well kind of, yeah.

Brad Furman (40:53):

Tom always…

Kevin Goetz (40:53):

Like they were a wonderful partnership.

Brad Furman (40:55):

Wonderful.

Kevin Goetz (40:55):

Because they really counterbalanced. Tom Rosenberg was one of my favorites. Tom is another tough customer because he knows what he wants. But he again, so fair and has been so loyal to me in business.

Brad Furman (41:10):

I adore Tom.

Kevin Goetz (41:10):

Yeah, he's been just great. And Gary.

Brad Furman (41:12):

Of course and Gary,

Kevin Goetz (41:13):

You know Gary.

*Brad Furman (41:13):

And you asked me the question so I'll answer it very directly. My regret or mistake was I need and should have stayed at Lakeshore making movies for years to come. Wow. Rather than leaving and going to a studio and getting stuck in a political situation where I wasn't really appreciated. I was dismissed and I was chosen because I was sort of the golden boy of the moment rather than really being respected as a filmmaker. I was sort of a pawn in a system versus I had earned my respect in stripes at Lakeshore and there was a lot of opportunity for me there. But you know, making movies in general isn't easy and making Lincoln Lawyer, although you know, very rewarding in many ways. Tom is a tough cookie. And, we were like this constantly, through friction. But there was a lot of love there.

Kevin Goetz (42:04):

There's friction and there's what I call civic discourse and there's friction for friction's sake and it's political and then there's healthy debate. If you believe in something, stand up for it.

*Brad Furman (42:16):

I was young, I was extraordinarily young. And what I didn't understand was Tom was like a father to me. You know when your father gives you brilliant wisdom but you can't hear it or you don't want to hear it. I was this unabashed kid who didn't want to hear the wisdom. I wanted it my way and he wanted it his way. And that's where the friction came from. But that is on me. I don't put that on him. We never had any friction.

Kevin Goetz (42:44):

No, you did what you were supposed to do. I always say this to producers and studio folks when they're getting pissed off at directors and I'm sort of the consiglieri. Yeah, yeah, for sure. For the rabbi or priest. And I say they're just doing what they're supposed to be doing. They're protecting their movie, they're protecting their vision.

Brad Furman (42:59):

And I was a kid doing it. But looking back, this was my global point. I thought at that time this was a really arduous experience. It was easy compared to what I have been through after Lincoln Lawyer.

Kevin Goetz (43:11):

Yeah. The lesson learned really is the grass is always greener.

*Brad Furman (43:15):

But here's why he's brilliant. He came to me 'cause he had seen some filmmakers, the Mark Pellington do Arlington Road and then have problems with other films and he said, don't make a mistake. You go to a studio, you're going to be eaten alive at a studio. And I felt for many reasons that Lincoln Lawyer, and I still feel this way, is a sliver of my potential. So as a result, I had such ambitious ideas of where my career was going and what I was going to accomplish that I wasn't able to see the forest through the trees at the time. And the advice and wisdom that Tom gave me and the infrastructure he built, his understanding of how to navigate Hollywood, how to protect the art, how to make movies, how to distribute them, all of these things were incredible. And I don't really live my life in regret. This is actually a moment of realization on your podcast here. I had one personal regret in my life, which I've worked through, but this actually, I would say if I had to do it over, I would've stayed at Lakeshore and made movies. I think that would've been the best situation for me and for them. And I think, you know, considering the success of Lincoln Lawyer and the ease within which making a movie like that came to me, there would've been many to come.

Kevin Goetz (44:30):

I say to people who are with me at the company and who want to leave, I say, are you sure you want to leave? Because I think you probably have it better than you think you have it.

Brad Furman (44:40):

Yeah,

Kevin Goetz (44:41):

Maybe you'll make a few more bucks, but is this really what you want? Or sometimes I'll say, you know what? You really seem to need to do this. Go do it. Go do it. And you'll have a place back here. Hopefully.

Brad Furman (44:54):

I had a home there.

Kevin Goetz (44:55):

I know.

*Brad Furman (44:56):

The beauty of it is, 'cause I don't live life in regret is you cumulatively take these life experiences and the way I feel 'cause you heard my basketball stories. I'm in my Michael Jordan years right now, meaning I've been kicked around. I went through the eighties where I lost and now I'm in the nineties. I'm in my prime years and I am a more sophisticated man, human being person 'cause I think all of that goes into the DNA of filmmaking.

Kevin Goetz (45:19):

And most importantly probably will make you the best father.

Brad Furman (45:23):

Yeah.

Kevin Goetz (45:23):

Because not just imparting it, but because of your availability, your accessibility, all of that stuff, right?

*Brad Furman (45:30):

Yeah. There's no question I'm, I was a little boy making that movie, hard to believe, but I really was and, and now I'm a man. And when I sit with my daughter at the beach, when we were making People not Places and we were just alone watching the sun go down, I never felt peace or joy at that level, which I'm sure many people being parents have experienced. But ultimately for me to have that level of peace in my life and heart and to approach my craft from a different perspective, it's not just about fatherhood. It's about the trials and tribulations of life and feeling like I'm a survivor. I'm also a survivor of the business. To have made this many movies, to still be standing, to have been knocked down so many times, to continue to fight.

Kevin Goetz (46:06):

And we didn't even get to your music videos with Justin Bieber and Zendaya for example. I mean, it's endless. You have so many.

Brad Furman (46:13):

I’ll give you a funny fact.

Kevin Goetz (46:15):

Oh, I please.

Brad Furman (46:15):

One of my early music videos star Jennifer Lawrence.

Kevin Goetz (46:19):

Jennifer Lawrence, yeah.

Brad Furman (46:21):

That's why I always find this, my music video stuff.

Kevin Goetz (46:23):

She didn't sing in it.

Brad Furman (46:24):

No. She starred in it for me. I was going to make a movie with Brett Easton Ellis.

Kevin Goetz (46:28):

Is this before that big thing that broke her win?

Brad Furman (46:31):

Yeah. Like a year or so before I cast her. Wow. Yeah. I had her and Sebastian Stan and a bunch of really great actors in my movie that Brett Easton Ellis wrote and we didn't make it. That's Hollywood, right?

Kevin Goetz (46:41):

That's Hollywood, yeah. Brad Furman, you're just a mensch, hamish, you're a just a decent human and a talented one at that.

Brad Furman (46:49):

I remember meeting you on my first film, The Take with Clint Culpepper in around 2006, and you approached the process with so much love and care. I was this like little itty bitty filmmaker and you had this presence about you and you treated me in a manner that was so kind and caring. You really deeply cared that I heard the information that I was educated on, the information that I was being taught, how to make a better film and to use the information to my benefit. And that was applicable on every movie. I mean, you tested The Take for me, Lincoln Lawyer for me, Runner Runner, I learned a ton. Thank you for having me. It's an honor, truly.

Kevin Goetz (47:30):

It's my pleasure. And thank you so much for joining me. To our listeners, I hope you enjoyed our interview today. For other stories like this one, please check out my book, Audienceology at Amazon or through my website at KevinGoetz360.com. You can also always follow me on my social media. Next time on Don't Kill the Messenger, I'll welcome Elizabeth Gabler, president of 3000 Pictures at Sony. Until next time, I'm Kevin Goetz and to you, our listeners, I appreciate you being part of the movie making process. Your opinions matter.

Host: Kevin Goetz
Guest: Brad Furman
Producer: Kari Campano
Writers: Kevin Goetz, Darlene Hayman, and Kari Campano
Audio Engineer: Gary Forbes (DG Entertainment)