Podcast: Don't Kill the Messenger with Movie Research Expert Kevin Goetz
Guest: Producer, David Permut
Interview Transcript:

Announcer (00:03):

There's a little-known part of Hollywood that most people are not aware of, known as the audience test preview. The book Audienceology reveals this for the first time. Our podcast series, Don't Kill the Messenger, brings this book to life, taking a peek behind the curtain. And now join author and entertainment research expert, Kevin Goetz.

Kevin Goetz (00:23):

Listeners, you're in for a treat today. One of the questions that I'm frequently asked is, what film have I tested more than any other film in the history of my career? And the answer is, without a doubt, the 1991 picture, The Marrying Man. I worked on that movie, I'm not kidding, 16 times. We conducted so many screenings that the producer said, kid, I'm gonna make you an associate producer on this movie. Unfortunately, the DNA of that film had problems. We'll be kind. It was flawed, but it did, however, cement my bond with its producer who is my guest today. I adore this man. David Permut. David, welcome.

David Permut (01:09):

Thank you so much and thank you for introducing me with one of my pictures, which I considered a bomb. <laugh>. It's a great way to start an interview. Kevin <laugh>, I'm leaving now. So nice to see you.

Kevin Goetz (01:21):

Okay, David, first of all, I want to tell our listeners that when I started producing, I'm gonna be jumping a little bit here, you and Lauren Shuler Donner were the first two producers that I went to with some ideas I had. And we're gonna talk about that in a minute. It all started with a very determined young guy in New York who moved to Los Angeles 'cause your father was relocated right from New York. And very similar to my story. David, you began a business in your teen years. Mine was at 17, yours was at 15. We both started businesses. Tell me what it was.

David Permut (02:02):

Well, we have a lot in common, that's for sure. I actually own the business 'cause I was the publisher of Beverly Hills Map Company.

Kevin Goetz (02:09):

Beverly Hills Map Company.

David Permut (02:11):

Yes. Well, basically I sold Maps to the Stars Homes on a corner in Homey Hills. And I did very well because I was kind of an internal kid actually. I lived and breathed movies and TV and that was always my dream.

Kevin Goetz (02:24):

First movie that had an influence on you was?

David Permut (02:26):

Oh, so many. I can't even tell you.

Kevin Goetz (02:28):

You remember your first movie you saw?

David Permut (02:29):

I mean, one of them was West Side Story, which I remember seeing, you know, so vividly. And that really impacted on me. Uh, but there's some Mad, Mad World. I mean, there's so many, I mean like a floodgate of films coming back tome.

Kevin Goetz (02:41):

And what did they do for you as a youngster?

David Permut (02:43):

Well, not only film on screen, but also television. Obviously I grew up with television as well. It took me out of my world and into other worlds. I visited all the other worlds of these stories and these shows.

Kevin Goetz (02:56):

So you were pretty introverted but did you find some solace there? I mean, did you have a pretty happy childhood?

David Permut (03:01):

Yeah, no. I come from a very loving family. Fortunately, I'm very blessed that way. But I found my outlet through film and television at that time, and still do to this day storytelling and going to other places and looking through the keyhole at other worlds. It blew my mind. You know, a lot of TV shows that I grew up with, et cetera, et cetera.

Kevin Goetz (03:23):

One of your great talents among many is your curiosity. My guest, Brian Grazer, is another really curious man who I so admire. And you have that sense of taking your curiosity and manifesting it into a project. I mean, like, that's so profound to me.

David Permut (03:44):

It's interesting that I mentioned Brian, 'cause Brian and I were partners prior to Ron Howard. You know, we were two young guys. I think I was maybe 19 or 20. Brian was a few years older than me and he had an apartment off of Olympic. And I had an apartment and we were just getting going. And we called ourself producers, although we produced nothing. And there was an article in the New York Times actually that caught Brian's attention, my attention ultimately. And we tried to put it together. And it was a story of basically in a nutshell, there were two guys they worked at night and they were shining the hearse limousines at this morgue that they worked at. And they had phone service there naturally. And they decided to capitalize on that. And they started an alcohol service and they transported the girls and the hearse. So they had an alcohol service that they ran at night 'cause they worked the night shift cleaning the offices. Obviously it never got made. Brian and I, we were together at that time and I had dreams and aspirations, both of us. But he wound up going to Paramount, I remember. And that's where he met Ron and I wound up in a different pathway.

Kevin Goetz (04:48):

Let's go back to Star Maps. You get this idea to sell maps, which by the way, you didn't invent that. It was from the 1930s. Thirties. 'cause I sent you a picture recently.

David Permut (05:00):

Yes. Right. Thank you for that picture. Yes.

Kevin Goetz (05:02):

But what did you do differently 'cause you very good at it?

*David Permut (05:06):

Well, first of all, you know, and I said I was a very internal kid. I think sitting on that corner changed my life substantially. Because first of all, I'm interfacing with all kinds of people, tourists. And I'm also interfacing with Fred Astaire and Elvis Presley who lived around the corner. And Katharine Hepburn who came by in the 57 T-Bird. And they'd stop at the stop sign on LA Sunset of the border, Beverly Hills and home be how's business kid? You know?

Kevin Goetz (05:31):

And you mean they, they encouraged you?

David Permut (05:32):

Well, Randolph Scott's wife gave me an umbrella. She thought I was getting too much sun. I had a director's chair, but the map was made by me. So I had a Xerox machine in my dad's offices. And so I published the map. Now where I got the addresses, I knew somebody whose father was a very high powered agent at a very well-known agency. And he helped me out with the addresses 'cause I went to school with him. I was in seventh grade. And that's where I got the idea. Because we bought a movie map when we first came out here from New York. And I'm looking at the gates and the hedges of people's homes. And it was before TMZ. So it wasn't issues of invasion, of privacy or anything.

Kevin Goetz (06:11):

I mean, Lucille Ball on Roxbury had no gate around her house. No. And she would, I remember her saying in an interview that people would just knock on her door and her maid would answer and say, I'm sorry, Ms. Ball is not available. Or sometimes she'd answer it herself.

David Permut (06:24):

Right. Not only that, but she would come out and take pictures with people. And I knew Gary Morton, her husband, and she used to come by my corner. And no, it was a very.

Kevin Goetz (06:32):

That was one of the most famous blocks, by the way, wasn't it?

David Permut (06:34):

Roxbury. Roxbury. Jack Benny, Peter Faulk, uh, Agnes Morehead. Keep going. You know Jimmy Stewart. Jimmy Stewart, of course across from…

Kevin Goetz (06:41):

Ira Gershwin.

David Permut (06:42):

Very good. Kevin, did you buy a map from me?

Kevin Goetz (06:45):

I might have <laugh>. It was accurate. It was accurate. I might have, my friend just moved onto that block he owned. It was Kirk Kerkorion's Estate.

David Permut (06:54):

He raised it. I know what he did. I had to become a producer. 'cause I knew where everybody lived.

Kevin Goetz (06:58):

I think Ricky Schroeder's on that block.

David Permut (07:00):

Ricky Schroeder is on the corner, the opposite category to Lucille Ball's. And then, you know, it's not far from there is Charo and her husband, Xavier Kugot who got lived there 'cause I got a flat tire in front of their home. It was a kid. I walked up and rang the bell one night and she answered the door. And then Kugot was painting in the background. And she had a sheer robe 'cause she was naked. He was painting a nude picture of Charo at the time that I got a flat tire. And they called the automobile club for me.

Kevin Goetz (07:26):

And didn't he have a rivalry with Desi Arnez?

David Permut (07:29):

Yes he did.

Kevin Goetz (07:30):

They had lived up in Chatsworth and also in Palm Springs.

David Permut (07:32):

You could have been partnered with me back then.

Kevin Goetz (07:34):

You, well, and you could have maybe been in my dance and acting school.

David Permut (07:37):

<laugh>. Well, you know, well I doubt that. But the one thing I'll address with the movie maps, the one thing, it was negotiation. So the maps started at $3. They would go to two, they would go to a dollar. It was Tijuana in Beverly Hills. So you know, whatever the market would bear. So it gave me a sense of interfacing with people and also really got me outta my shell. And that's really what happened with the maps.

Kevin Goetz (07:57):

And you made some bucks?

David Permut (07:58):

Every dollar went in my pocket. It was deposited in Beverly Hills Federal savings. I had a pretty substantial bank account because I was very good with money.

Kevin Goetz (08:06):

Well, who else did you then partner with who was not so good with money, but gave you your beginnings?

David Permut (08:12):

Well, that was the antithesis of being good with money.

Kevin Goetz (08:15):

You just walked right into that one, by the way.

David Permut (08:16):

I did. Money went through his hands like water. You know.

Kevin Goetz (08:21):

Of course, we're talking about Bill Sargent.

David Permut (08:22):

Yes. Wasn't he like PT Barnum? PT Barnum, Mike Todd. You know what he was, was an element of the business that no longer exists. You know, when you talk about showmanship and you can talk about Jerry Weintraub and all that, but he really was with Colonel Parker when you really hit down to it. But that was a different cut of cloth. And here's the thing.

Kevin Goetz (08:39):

How did you hook up with Bill, by the way?

David Permut (08:41):

Well, my dad came home one night. Now you gotta understand, I went to this private school in Beverly Hills. My dad comes home one night and I guess I was around 16 or so 'cause I was selling maps. He said, I met a guy tonight who's gonna reunite The Beatles. I go, he's gonna what? He's gonna, that's what I said, he's gonna what? He's gonna reunite The Beatles. I said, dad, gimme a break. I mean, you meet a guy in a bar out here in Hollywood, you know, he reunite the, and then I turn on the TV that night and there's a rumor that The Beatles are meeting in Hollywood. Holy shit, I gotta meet this guy. Where is this guy? And my dad finds a business card that he had. He met this guy in a bar. And literally I looked at it and said Beverly Hills.

(09:17):

So I said, he's in Beverly Hills, so he must be legitimate. You know, <laugh>. So I go to Little Santa Monica Boulevard, I go up to these offices, little rough around the edges, you know, little afraid carpet and little musty. And I said, where's this guy? Is he here? Bill Sargent? I got the front desk. He says, oh, he's down the hall. You know, I go down the hall and he's not in an office, he's in a closet and he's got a folding chair with one phone with no rotaries. And he looks like Burl Ives. You know, that's kind of, and this is the guy who's gonna get the Beatles, the guy who's got no windows. There's a Xerox machine in there. So what happened was I went under his wing.

Announcer (09:51):

Wow.

David Permut (09:51):

And he tells me he did these shows. This is what he tells me. He did Hamlet with Richard Burton at the Lund Fontaine Theater in New York. And he filmed it live, the first filmed live Broadway production. And he made millions 'cause it was during the Burton Taylor era in the sixties.

Kevin Goetz (10:07):

He really did.

David Permut (10:08):

He told me he did. Harlow, there were two Harlows being done in Hollywood. Joe Levine, the great producer, was doing a, a major production of Harlow. And Bill Sargent was doing a quickie version on a video process called Avi, which he invented, starring Carol Lynley. And he came out off of Joe Levine's publicity campaign and Harlow. So he was, he was legit in those days. And he beat him to the box office. Wow. Then he tells me he did the Tammy Show. Teenage Music International, your listeners who haven't seen it, watch it. It's amazing. The Stones, Jan and Dean, James Brown, the Supremes, you name it.

Kevin Goetz (10:42):

A concert that he put together?

David Permut (10:43):

The first filmed rock show in the sixties.

Kevin Goetz (10:46):

Did he produce the Rock show?

David Permut (10:47):

Yes. Wow. I didn't know he did any of this. So this guy in the closet looking like Burl Ives is telling me, Hamlet, Harlow, the Tammy Show, The Stones, James Brown. I said, no way I, this guy's full of shit. I don't believe it. You know, how is this guy with no windows in a closet with one phone and a folding table? This guy's gonna get the Beatles together. And he tells me he did all this. I go to the Beverly Hills library. I look Horace Williams Sargent III from Cato, Oklahoma. Harlow. Hamlet, the Tammy show. Holy shit, this is my ticket to Hollywood. Wow. I'm leaving the corner. I'm going to work for him. Anyway.

Kevin Goetz (11:23):

First thing you do is?

David Permut (11:24):

Sargent tried to put something together, which was a Lawrence and Lee play that I had told him about that I read in school. And Lawrence and Lee, of course wrote Inherit the Wind and Auntie Maim and prominent writers. So he acquired it for $1 and with one phone in the closet that he was in, I was his assistant. He bought the play. And then he booked the Koran Theater in San Francisco. Lloyd Bridges, Beau Bridges, Lee Grant, William Wyndham, Tom Bosley, and Ben Johnson who just won an Oscar for the Last Picture Show. They were all gonna star in the show. And he's gonna do what he did with Hamlet. Filmed a play with a live audience.

Kevin Goetz (12:02):

Which play was it?

David Permut (12:04):

It was called The Gangs All Here. But it never happened, did it? It was done on Broadway years prior to this. Did it happen? He was gonna redo it? No, 'cause he didn't have the money and he was scurrying around trying to get the money. And what happened was is I am sorry, I gotta digress. But what happened was, I'm the assistant and I'm there in the office and the phone's ringing. It's one line. And Jack Gilardi's calling, he's Goddamnit, I've been trying to get you for hours. He, God, these lines are lit up like Christmas trees. It's me and him in a a card table and in a closet. He didn't have the money. He's trying to put the money together. I'm living at home. I tell my dad, this is how it works in Hollywood. You gotta put the project together and then get the money, Dad. That's how it works. He says, he's not paying you anything. You're making more money on the corner selling maps. I stayed with him until I went out to the Howard Weekly apartments in the valley when I didn't show. He didn't show up for our office in the closet one day. And I go out there while we're trying to put this project here, there all these stars booked. And he ate at Chasins one night with me and he invited a whole cast and they're all there. And we're in the A table and Alfred Hitchcock's next to us. And this one, I'm at Chasins and I realized Dave Chasin didn't charge him anything for dinner 'cause when he hits it rich, he pays him back 10 times what he owes him. So anyway,

Kevin Goetz (13:10):

He must have been the most charming man to hit Hollywood.

David Permut (13:15):

Seductive. And not only did he seduce me, he seduced the audiences to all the things that he did. Pull outta the hat. Well he did. He did. Under pulling off. Give 'em Hell, Harry! Well, what happened is, right, he disappeared. It's a long story. I'll give you the short story. He just disappeared. Literally disappeared. And there went my opportunity until I'm an agent in Beverly Hills for a short while with an agency in Beverly Hills called the Moss Agency. And I wanted to represent writers 'cause I realized writers with the key to the door, you needed material. If you had something, everybody wanted a great story. But here's the thing, they weren't a Writer's Guild signatory this little one man operation with David Moss. And I'm 19 years old at this point. So I applied to the WGA 'cause he said, you can do what you want kid. I don't give a shit what you do. So I went to the WGN, became a signator, and I'm like a junior agent. I don't even know what the hell I'm doing. But I did sign with the Writer's Guild 'cause I wanted to do that. He represented mostly actors. This agency, he wasn't a member of the Writer's Guild. So I made the agency a signator and he said, do what you want. So I did. And one of the scripts I got was from this kid in Indiana and I represented him. And I'm on the phone with him. I never met him, but he wrote a spec, Mary Tyler Moore script. And I sent it to Alan Burns and I tried to get it going and nothing. Anyway, he came back into my life years later when he was in front of the camera in one of my movies. His name was David Letterman. Oh my lord. So David was a fledgling writer when he was doing the weather in Indiana in radio station. He used to send me reel to reel tapes. So I was David Letterman's first agent. How's that?

Kevin Goetz (14:49):

We're in a little bit of a thing about comedians. Let's also talk about Richard Pryor, who really launched your career,

David Permut (14:55):

Right?

Kevin Goetz (14:56):

In terms of making real money. What happened there?

David Permut (14:58):

Well, what paved the way for Pryor? Getting back to Sargent, your question. Sargent was in my life during, Give 'em Hell, Harry!, which was a film play we made in one night in Seattle.

Kevin Goetz (15:10):

Starring James Whitmore.

David Permut (15:11):

Starring James Whitmore in a one-man show, six video cameras. When I reunited with Sargent, shot in one night, one take, we got a call 'cause nobody wanted to release it. Nobody would look at it. It looked like shit. It was taped to film.

Kevin Goetz (15:24):

Did you sell it directly?

David Permut (15:25):

We called the theaters and booked the theaters. So you four-walled it. So it's in theaters three weeks after we shot it. And they said they'll throw it up on a few screens. They liked the movie, the theater owners, but they said, we don't think it's gonna do any business, but we'll put it in the theater. See what happens. And then I got a call from the academy and they, congratulations. You've been nominated for an Oscar.

Kevin Goetz (15:44):

Unbelievable.

David Permut (15:44):

The actor was nominated. James Whitmore is brilliant as bad as the quality of tape to film in 1976. James Whitmore is brilliant. Morphing into Harry Truman in the play.

Kevin Goetz (15:54):

You didn't do it for no reason. You did it because it was a really good show.

David Permut (15:58):

A great performance. Yeah, great performance. And you captured it with the spontaneity and immediacy of a live audience. So that film wound up costing about $50,000, including the party in Seattle. And we had six cameras. Steve Binder directed it and punching cameras backstage. Like an old TV show. We had a movie in the can in one night and then we inverted it to film. And then three weeks later it was in release. We wound up at the red carpet on the Oscars with James Whitmore. The picture does 11.5 million.

Kevin Goetz (16:24):

You have the distinction of taping the first live comedy concert with Richard Pryor.

David Permut (16:30):

That paved the way for Richard Pryor that did 32 and a half million dollars. They said lightning struck once. It doesn't strike twice with Give 'em Hell, Harry!, you got lucky. You know, we liked the film. Everybody said studios, they all passed. And we called Sumner Redstone, Sala Hasni, Hank Plait, all the theater owners who booked Give 'em Hell, Harry!. And three weeks after he shot Richard in Long Beach at the Long Beach Terrace Theater. It's in release.

Kevin Goetz (16:52):

Did you do the same thing with the multi-cameras?

David Permut (16:55):

Yeah. Six cameras.

Kevin Goetz (16:56):

Steve Binder.

David Permut (16:57):

What? No, it wasn't Steve Binder. It was Jeff Margolis.

Kevin Goetz (17:00):

Not bad.

David Permut (17:00):

Pushing buttons backstage like a old TV show.

Kevin Goetz (17:02):

And what'd you all do? It was like a revenue share.

David Permut (17:04):

As Bill Sargent used to say, we're shitting in high cotton. Now he was from Oklahoma ca to Oklahoma. So he was a fiery.

Kevin Goetz (17:10):

But I'm saying no one got any money up front, including Pryor.

David Permut (17:13):

Pryor got 400,000.

Kevin Goetz (17:15):

Oh he did.

David Permut (17:15):

'cause he needed money. The only reason he did it is he needed money. He turned us down for quite a while after Give 'em Hell, Harry!. I tried to get Richard.

Kevin Goetz (17:22):

Did he make any more money on the 32 million?

David Permut (17:25):

Yeah, he did. Yeah, he did.

Kevin Goetz (17:26):

And you made a ton of money, right?

David Permut (17:28):

Well, I did pretty well for.

Kevin Goetz (17:30):

And Bill. And Bill finally got money.

David Permut (17:31):

I was like 22. And all of a sudden I'm president of a company and the Theater Television Corporation. We took over the entire seventh floor of 1888 Century Park East. And we were in business in a big way with, with Richard Pryor. Meanwhile, Ray Stark called me up to his office. I didn't know Ray Stark. And he called up and he said he'd like to see a print of the film. So I sent it to Mapleton Drive to his house. And the next day he called me and he said, kid, you should be at a studio. You're with stark raving mad lunatic. The thing about Sargent, I wanted to say this. He was a promoter. This guy Bill, man. He was by the edge of his seat. But he was a dreamer. He was a dreamer. And he was fearless. He knew he could sell tickets. I sell the sizzle, not the steak. That's what he used to say.

Kevin Goetz (18:13):

When we come back, we're gonna talk about the vast ascent to being the most sought out producer. Certainly one of them. We'll be back in a moment.

Announcer (18:28):

Join me, Jacqueline Coley on a brand new podcast Seen on the Screen presented by Make It Universal and Rotten Tomatoes. Meet the innovative people at NBCUniversal as they share their journeys, inspirations, and the movies that shape them. Each episode is an intimate and fun conversation about the impact of film. Seen on the Screen is available now. You can find it on Apple, Spotify, YouTube, or wherever you find your favorite podcast.

Kevin Goetz (18:58):

We're back with the incomparable David Permut. David, why do you get embarrassed when I say nice things about you? They're all true, man.

David Permut (19:06):

You know why? This is why. I feel like I'm an outsider, not an insider in this business. I've always felt that way and still do. And I think I appreciate the accolades and all that. It's just weird for me because I'm living my dream and it's like I'm ready for somebody to pat me on the shoulder and say, Hey, the gig is up.

Kevin Goetz (19:25):

Speaking of living your dreams, you have a famous quote that you're known for, which is “die with your memories, not your dreams.”

David Permut (19:33):

Yeah,

Kevin Goetz (19:34):

That's a beautiful quote. Well, and you are absolutely the living example of that.

David Permut (19:39):

Yeah.

Kevin Goetz (19:39):

Why does that mean so much to you?

David Permut (19:41):

Because there's an executive who said to me, Jeff Sagansky, who I made Blind Date with years ago, which was Bruce Willis' first film. He said to me when I was talking effusively about a project, and he paused and he said, David, you have the exact same enthusiasm that you had when you came into my office and pitched me Blind Date. And I have the same passion and the same enthusiasm I did when I was making my own eight-millimeter films when I was a kid, when I started in the business. Live it, sleep it, drink it. 

Kevin Goetz (20:17):

Well, you and I know each other for almost 40 years. And I can tell you that Jeff is absolutely right. And I wanna also, sorry to embarrass you, but give you another accolade, which is, I believe you to be probably the best pitchman that I've ever heard. And I don't mean you've ever pitched me a project to produce or to finance, but you've pitched me stuff always by telling me, this is a movie we're gonna be screening, this is a movie, and you gotta hear it. And you got nobody does that like you. I'm sorry. And if I recall, and we go back nearly 40 years, there's a time when you, I believe, had at least one project set up at every single studio.

David Permut (20:59):

I've been in business with every studio and still I'm in business with. But at once, I mean.

Kevin Goetz (21:03):

It was always some project that you had.

David Permut (21:04):

Yes, it's true. Yeah. Well I had a first look deal at the United Artists. I had a second look deal with Jeff Katzenberg at Disney at the time. Bob Shea approached me about being president of New Line. And I'm not cut from that cloth. And I knew I wasn't. So I got into a negotiation, but I decided not to do that. And that was before DeLuca and that was after Sarah Richer that period of time. And we figured out another way to be in business, which we were. We made a first look deal. And the exception of the rule was he also gave me a stock position in the company. 

Kevin Goetz (21:34):

What makes you, or what made you, I'm gonna say makes, because you're still that insatiable pitcher that can sell ice to and eskimo.

*David Permut (21:41):

You know what? Here's the bottom line. Yeah. I'm not a great pitcher. I don't think I am. I think I know how to tell a good story. Yes. I'll take the compliment. I appreciate that. But here's the thing, if you don't believe in what you're selling, you're not gonna sell it. You may sell it, you may get lucky. 'cause you maybe sell the sizzle, not the steak. But when you have the stake, when you have a great story and you can articulate that story, and that's what I'm in.

Kevin Goetz (22:05):

What do you think of pitch is?

David Permut (22:06):

Well, a pitch is an articulation and I appreciate that. But it starts with what I'm selling. It starts with the story and the essence of the story. 'cause if that doesn't exist, I can't sell shit.

Kevin Goetz (22:17):

So, okay, so let's unpack that for a second. For a lot of my listeners are up-and-coming filmmakers, and I'm curious for you to share with us what are the principal ingredients to sell something to someone. I think you've just given us one insight, which is, if you are not passionate about it yourself, if you don't believe in it yourself, you're not gonna sell it to anyone else.

*David Permut (22:39):

Absolutely right. If I look back at my career, I think the movies that have really hit for me and resonated with audiences, they're all different genres. But what they have in common and what you've recognized obviously in your world, you know the hook. How do you sell it? How do you make it distinctive from everything else? You know, provocative, do something different. Don't cut the same cookie every time.

Kevin Goetz (23:00):

Let’s take it back to Marrying Man. Take it. What's the hook in Marrying Man?

David Permut (23:03):

MaWell, here's the thing. I wouldn't qualify Marry Man as one of the pictures. I'm talking about the successful pictures I made when I talk.

Kevin Goetz (23:09):

But no, no, let's talk about Marrying Man. Because Marrying Man, if I recall, you literally had gold handed to you on a plate in the form of Neil Simon.

*David Permut (23:19):

Yes and believe me, being in business with Neil Simon, when he handed me the script over lunch, the memorable day at LA Scala Restaurant in Beverly Hills, I remember I went back to the office and canceled my meetings and read the script immediately. It produced all his movies, was Ray Stark. And he's offering me to produce his movie. So the story about Harry Karl, which inspired the story. Harry Karl was in the shoe business he inherited from his father. He degenerate gambler and he married Marie McDonald, the body in Hollywood. He married her and divorced her and married her, divorced her. And Neil thought, what a great idea for a movie. So he took that and ran with it. Looking back on it, I was so enamored with being in business with Neil Simon. I realized in hindsight, and maybe I thought about a little there, that by virtue of the premise of that, there was a repetitiveness to it. He married her, he divorced her. And you run outta gas after a while in the third act.

Kevin Goetz (24:10):

It's a DNA problem. Absolutely. But 16 screenings tells you right there that you're trying to put lipstick on a pig.

David Permut (24:19):

I understand. And I was trying to take stock in your company, but they didn't offer me any stock.

Kevin Goetz (24:23):

Um, but in any, it wasn't my company.

David Permut (24:26):

I know, I, I know. I remember.

Kevin Goetz (24:27):

Let's move to some of the successes. Let's talk about Face/Off.

David Permut (24:31):

Yeah.

Kevin Goetz (24:32):

How'd you get that done?

David Permut (24:33):

So that's sitting on a shelf at Warner Brothers with a producer named Joel Silver. And I happen to read this script and I go, holy shit. Because here's what I was about to say about the hook. Dragnet, the shortest pitch in movie history. Dumb duh dumb. Dan Aykroyd and I went into Universal. That's how he sold it.

Kevin Goetz (24:52):

Dumb duh, dumb dumb. Wow. And they bought it off of that. So, who'd you say that to?

*David Permut (24:57):

Hook. Frank Price with Dan Aykroyd standing next to me. I tell you the story about Dragon. I'm watching an old TV show. Jack Webb, black and White. I'm laughing. I always did as a kid growing up watching that show. And I'm watching an old rerun and then two channels away is Dan Akroyd on Saturday Night Live. The next day I'm on the phone faster than shit through a goose with Bernie Brillstein. And I say to him, I got an idea. He says, what is it? Dumb duh dumb dumb. He says, Dragnet, yeah, let's do it. Lemme call Dan. He called. Dan called me. Boom. We're in Frank Price's office, Dan and I go in there with Bernie and the three of us are in there. And Frank goes, what do you got boys? Because he didn't know what it was about. And we all said in unison, duh da dumb dumb. So my dad calls me when I told him I sold this project. He says, how do you sell something to somebody they already own? I don't know how that business works, <laugh>. My dad's in the real business, anyway.

Kevin Goetz (25:45):

Dad's in the real business.

David Permut (25:46):

Yeah, in the real business. He's in the real world business. Anyway, and a year later we were in production with Tom Hanks and Dan Akroyd, became a big hit. So hook, Blind Date, you know, Dale Launer was selling stereo when I first met him. He wrote Ruthless People, Dirty Rotten Scoundrels, My Cousin Vinny. He was in a stereo store selling stereos when we first met. Blind Date. What a great idea. When he told me about Nina, who cuts hair in Beverly Hills and his friend who went out on a blind date and everything that could go wrong went wrong. It's Hangover in its day. It was one night on a date that goes ape shit. What a great concept concept. When I came across Face/Off, holy shit, what a concept. Two guys switching faces. Oh my God. Two guys switching identities. It was sitting on a shelf at Warner's collecting dust, which Joe Silver, I read it, I called him up, I said, can I get involved with this?

(26:34):

Is there a way I can come in and offer something? Maybe I can help finance it. It's been sitting around for a while. I'm going getting this thing made. And they said, well, let us get back to you. And they got back, Mike Ward and Mike Clear? And they said, look, it comes back to us in reversion because there's an activity on it through the Writer's Guild, but it's sitting on a shelf over there for a while. So I'm all over it like a pitbull and heat. So what happened is I wind up talking to the agents who represent the guys. And the timing was up in, I can't remember, 37 days in the, and I got a calendar in my office, like I'm in the prison, I'm crossing off the days <laugh>. And at the end of the, I mean it was a big deal, I wrote a check. Never forget that check. 'cause they knew how badly I wanted a hundred thousand for 90 day option.

Kevin Goetz (27:12):

Out of your own pocket?

David Permut (27:14):

Yeah, yeah,

Kevin Goetz (27:14):

Hold on. Yeah, hold on. Okay, come on. Okay. Putting your own money there.

David Permut (27:18):

That's, that says that's a lot of movie maps.

Kevin Goetz (27:20):

That's, so here's what happened. That’s even for someone who has now made lots of movies, putting your own money in a project like that.

David Permut (27:27):

Yeah, well.

Kevin Goetz (27:27):

You know, tells you the belief you have in it.

*David Permut (27:29):

I thought it was a great concept and other people finally did. But what happened was 90 days is coming up because I'm in the day 80 or whatever it was. And every studio passed. Nobody wants it. Oh, oh no. It's intentionally funny. Two guys switching faces could be funny. I said, yeah, it's funny if, if Gary Marshall's directing it, it's funny. Anyway, it was rejected everywhere. And finally Paramount had rejected it originally. And then they turned around when I brought John Woo in and John Woo had done all those great films, Hard Boiled, all the great films in Hong Kong, you know. So he came in and then what I didn't know when he wanted to do it, we made the deal with Sherry Lansing. Then what happened was Fox had first call on his services. So they pushed the button on Broken Arrow and I lost my director. But fortunately Paramount lived by the deal. But then Paramount said, we're gonna co-finance it. We'll come up with 50% of the money, find the other 50%.

Kevin Goetz (28:21):

And did you?

David Permut (28:22):

My former assistant became one of the acquisitions people at Disney.

Kevin Goetz (28:26):

So Disney came in for half of it.

David Permut (28:27):

Yes.

Kevin Goetz (28:28):

For the international.

David Permut (28:28):

And they regretted doing that because at the time, Paramount.

Kevin Goetz (28:31):

Paramount regretted doing that. Well, I assume so. They got half of the revenue from a film. Don't worry. They got more than their karma back on Titanic.

David Permut (28:40):

Where Ah, ah, very funny.

Kevin Goetz (28:42):

Right? Yes. For listeners who aren't aware, it was a 20th Century Fox. Titanic was going way over budget. They sold half of it to Paramount for, I wanna say something. I don't know what the amount was, but it was way under what? That was one of the highest-grossing movies of all time. And Paramount did extremely well. So we're not crying for them.

David Permut (29:03):

We're not crying for them. And they did very well with Face/Off. So much so that we're gonna be making the sequels.

Kevin Goetz (29:08):

I read that.

David Permut (29:09):

It’s written, Adam Wigard's directing and we're very excited about it. It's in the works now for next year.

Kevin Goetz (29:15):

Let me move to another success. And I have a little bit to do with this story. So I'm gonna preface it with that. You went to school with Dino Martin and Dino was one of the best buddies of Gregory Crosby. Gregory is a writer and he had this incredible idea based on Desmond Doss, this pacifist Seventh Day Adventist. And he brought it to you. Now, I don't know if I made the introduction to Greg and you, but I might have. But the rest is history because you do what you do so well and brought it to Bill Mechanic who had a way of financing movies as well. And so the two of you brought it to life and I'm thrilled about that story. What's your perspective on it?

*David Permut (30:04):

Well, how much time do you have? 17 years of my life on Hacksaw Ridge. And yes, you called me. I met Greg through a mutual friend while I was shooting a movie at Disney. And this stunt coordinator had mentioned Greg to me. And this guy he had met who won the congressional medal honor with ever without ever touching a gun in the bloodiest Battle of Okinawa. I said, well first of all, it's not a true story. I don't believe it. How can a guy not, you have to be trained in rifle for you to protect yourself and other men if you're on the front lines. And you know if, if you're a medic. So, well I quickly found out it was true. You did call me and you did talk to me about Greg Crosby and thank God for Greg Crosby because he was the conduit to bringing me the project. And I was honored and privileged that he did. I approached Desmond Doss about acquiring the rights and he had absolutely no interest. But Gregory had built a trust with him. Gregory built a trust with him. Keep in mind, prior to my existence, Darryl Zanuck, not Dick Zanuck, but Darryl Zanuck the founder of Fox. And he wanted…

Kevin Goetz (31:10):

Oh, I never knew this part.

David Permut (31:11):

Oh no, there's a history. Desmond was a very humble, modest man. He felt uncomfortable with exploiting his story. Desmond Doss probably got tired of hearing from me wanting this movie for so long or wanting to tell his story. And he basically designated the church. So I'm no longer interfacing with CAA, I'm negotiating.

Kevin Goetz (31:31):

Seventh Day?

David Permut (31:31):

The Seventh Day Adventists with Bill Mechanic. Anyway, it's a long journey, which is a fascinating one. But ultimately the fine citizens of Australia, had it not been for them, with our 40% rebate being the only American me, Bill, and Vince Vaughn, and Andrew Garfield, total Aussie below the line and above the line, that film may not have gotten made without the fine citizens of Australia. And the tax break we got on it, the entire film was shot in Australia. So that's the key to the door, if you will. Walden had developed the script with us 'cause we brought it to Walden with Bill. Anyway, we developed the script with Robert Shakin and Andrew Knight came involved and did some rewriting on it.

Kevin Goetz (32:12):

When did Mel Gibson become involved?

David Permut (32:14):

We got good news from Walden. You have a green light. So how many times did you hear that in your career? Great. Two things. We'll co-finance the film, not a problem. I'll find the other half. I knew I could. And what's the other thing? Well, they wanted to do it as a PG-13 movie and that was their edict. That's what they do over there. They prefer to have films at that rating level with Phil Anschutz, who also owned Regal Cinema at the time. So I respected that. That changed over the course of development. I guess their mo and part of the thematic of it is the horrors of war. I mean you wanna be on the battlefield. So that wasn't gonna work. So we got them their money back and we put the picture together with all these people here who are in a lot of other businesses as well as Hollywood.

Kevin Goetz (32:55):

We're looking at the one sheet that just popped up on the screen behind David. 'cause we have rolling one sheets of David's movies. 

David Permut (33:03):

Oh, you're unbelievable. You do everything. You look at this, you gotta see this studio <laugh>. Anyway, we totally financed the film independently. We totally financed the P and A independently.

Kevin Goetz (33:13):

Just marvelous.

David Permut (33:14):

It was made by all of these executive producers, wonderfully contributing towards getting this movie made.

Kevin Goetz (33:20):

Wow. Just a great story.

David Permut (33:20):

Well it's a great story for a lot of reasons. I think. You know, Mel hadn't worked in Hollywood for some time as a filmmaker and he was back in the director chair with us.

Kevin Goetz (33:30):

And boy is he a major, major directorial talent.

David Permut (33:34):

Well, I'm so proud of the film and that gets me back to really the importance of what we do.

Kevin Goetz (33:40):

And you got an Oscar nomination, did you not?

David Permut (33:42):

Well actually, somebody said to me at the Oscars, I'll reveal this, but it's gonna reveal a lot of things about me. I'm sitting there, I'm six rows from the stage, Mel's with us. And uh, if you remember Warren Beatty, I knew something was up 'cause Warren was a little confused. I'm looking at him and I knew immediately what happened.

Kevin Goetz (33:59):

I was in the room that night.

David Permut (34:00):

But I know what happened. You know what happened?

Kevin Goetz (34:03):

He went off stage, right?

David Permut (34:04):

No, he looked at that card and he was surprised. Keep in mind we won two Oscars at that point. We had six nominations, we won two. So here's what happened in my mind 'cause I wrote my Oscar speech when I was 13 years old. So I had it with me. I just filled in some blanks.

Kevin Goetz (34:20):

It was yellowed. It was yellowed. A little tea stained.

David Permut (34:22):

Yeah, you're right. Exactly right. Pencil and you know, crayon. It was with crayon. Anyway, so Warren Beatty's up there confused and then he hands the card to Faye and I knew immediately what happened. He was confused because nobody expected. And Mel said to me, look, I don't think Hacksaw is gonna win Best Picture. He didn't wanna get me ready for that. And I said, yeah, I didn't think we were gonna win Best Picture. I thought it was gonna be maybe La La Land like a lot of people did. But I knew what happened. He looked at the card and obviously he saw Hacksaw Ridge on the card, which was a surprise to him, which is why he handed it to her. So I'm about to get up from my seat like this <laugh> about, I'm getting up from my seat. Anyway, for two seconds. I won the Oscar. Those two seconds in time, I heard Hacksaw Ridge being read in my mind. Obviously I'm joking around with you,

Kevin Goetz (35:14):

But it's not. They read La La Land.

David Permut (35:16):

They said La La Land. So then somebody said to me after.

Kevin Goetz (35:19):

Which is also incorrect, right?

David Permut (35:20):

So now we got the second film, which I now I mentioned not the second film, but the film that won was Moonlight. But for that two seconds, I thought, that's it. It's Hacksaw Ridge 'cause he was so surprised, he looked surprised when he read that to me. I'm thinking he was surprised 'cause it wasn't the front runner, it’s Hacksaw Ridge.

Kevin Goetz (35:37):

I know.

David Permut (35:38):

In my mind I won the Oscar and oh anyway. And then somebody said to me clearly at a party, they go, congratulations, David, you're the only producer who lost the Oscar twice in one night for Best Picture.

Kevin Goetz (35:50):

Another picture I want to talk about is Rustin, which I thought was just extraordinary. Colman Domingo's performance is masterful. And I'd like to know you worked on that with Barack and Michelle Obama.

David Permut (36:05):

I'll talk about the evolution of it from the beginning just till the last beat and the key to the door was President and Michelle Obama. Without them, that film never would've gotten made. So here's what happened. I have to acknowledge two people. I made a movie with Dan Sladek and Chris Taaffe and they’re two young producers who came to me with a book called Prayers for Bobby. And Prayers for Bobby was about a teenage boy, very close-knit, loving family who came out to his family. He's gay. And his mother tried to change his sexuality to the church. Sigourney Weaver, Sigourney Weaver, God bless, Sigourney Weaver. Sigourney had never worked in television in spite of her lineage in her family.

Kevin Goetz (36:47):

What a movie.

David Permut (36:48):

And Sigourney did a cable movie 'cause I felt the rest of the country needed to see this movie. I didn't wanna make it as an independent movie and preaching to the choir. I need to let people know and kids and parents. And it was seen by many people. It was a cable movie on Lifetime. Sigourney starred prayers for Bobby based on the landmark book that Chris Taaffe and Dan Sladek brought to me. And we produced it together and wound up with multiple Emmynominations and Golden Globe for Sigourney and all kinds of other accolades and awards. I was in the jury at Shanghai and this young man comes up to me and I'm about to go on stage to present one of the awards as one of the jury members of the festival a few years ago. And he wanted to thank me and I thought he was gonna talk about Face/Off or Hacksaw Ridge or something.

*(37:31):

And he said he wanted to thank me for Prayers for Bobby. And I asked him in Mandarin, 'cause I don't speak Mandarin through an interpreter, asked him how he saw the film and he had a black marketed copy 'cause it's outlawed in China. So that movie meant a lot to me. And one of the things I must say is that I revere Harry Warner because Jack Warner was a shit. He only cared about selling popcorn. I actually met him, which is crazy. I'm old enough to know I met him as a kid, Jack Warner. Nobody really liked Jack Warner, but everybody loved Harry. Harry's older brother. Harry felt that the power of what we do should serve three purposes. And he referred to the three E's. Educate, enlighten, and entertain. And that truly is the power of the business because look, I'm closer to the end than the beginning. So if I can make films that speak to that, that's really to me, the goal we all have. I mean, it's great to make films that sell popcorn. No, no doubt. And I always want to hit, but Rustin speaks to that as much as Prayers to Bobby, as much as some of the other films that I'm involved in. But Rustin started with Dan and Chris giving me this book, which I read, a Landmark book acquired the rights, and you know, the uphill battle of selling it. So that took many years.

Kevin Goetz (38:49):

And how did Barack and Michelle get involved?

David Permut (38:53):

Right before they announced starting the company? I heard a rumor they were starting the company and I was able to reach out. Higher Ground? Yes, Higher Ground. It wasn't announced yet. It was prior to the announcement. And I found the pathway forward through the lawyer who represented them. And that's the key to the door that made that picture happen. Now executive produced it. Bruce Cohen is a great producer. He line produced it. I executive produced it with President and Michelle Obama. And it's a film I'm enormously proud of. I acquired the rights from Walter Nagel, who was partnered with Rustin for many, many years in this state and went to New York to meet him.

Kevin Goetz (39:30):

So you got the rights for it?

David Permut (39:32):

So that's where it started. Bruce did a wonderful job in the packaging of it. I executive produced it with the president and Michelle Obama. 

Kevin Goetz (39:40):

So really it was about using their political capital to push a very important topic forward.

David Permut (39:44):

Well, he was a forgotten hero in history. I think films that educate, enlighten, and entertain and and serve that purpose, I think that's how you would define what their tastes are in documentaries, which they've done and films they've done.

Kevin Goetz (39:56):

As we wind down the interview, I wanna ask you about your, I guess moving into your third act. And you mentioned it to me, different projects have different meaning for you and you realize, I suppose time is a different currency and you wanna spend that time on things that mean something to you. Is that a fair statement?

*David Permut (40:16):

Yeah, I wanna die on a movie set. You know, the thing about it is where I'm at now, and we were talking about the past that you can learn a lot by the past obviously, and you don't ignore any of it. And you have good memories obviously, and some bad memories. You learn what to do and what not to do. You live and learn. But looking in the front view rather than the rearview mirror, what I'm most proud of now and what I'm passionate about, I made movies with a lot of people established in the business, incredible people from Neil Simon to Robert Schenkkan, Pulitzer Prize-winningwriters, Mel Gibson, all the great boldface names I've worked with. But for me, the real challenge and why I go to Toronto and when I never miss Sundance and I see five movies every day for 10 days. I just got back from TIFF. I saw 44 movies. It never fails that I discover the gold nugget. The gold nugget is the next generation of filmmakers, whether that's Sean Baker when I first met him. I go back with all these great filmmakers today and I could go through a whole laundry list with you of those filmmakers. But on the horizon, not in the past. James Sweeney just locked a picture that I produced that I'm in love with. So I'm not very objective.

Kevin Goetz (41:27):

What's the name of it?

David Permut (41:28):

It's called Twinless. And James was this kid from Alaska, who went to Chapman and made his first film micro budget called Straight Up, which everybody should see. Straight Up, according to Owen Glieberman. He said James the cross between Wes Anderson and Woody Allen. And the film was called Straight Up. And I fell in love with it. And I had dinner with James. I had nothing to do with it. It was made for a nickel, it was made for 150, 200 grand, whatever he made it for. It looked great and the performances were great. Randall Park was in it anyway, had dinner with him and I said, listen, the first time we met, I said, listen, I'm making your next film. There's only one producer in Hollywood's name's David Permut. What are we doing together? And he took an envelope out and he said, I'm working on this script called Twinless.

(42:11):

Twinless. What's that about? He said, it's about two guys who meet in a twin bereavement group. I said, twin bereavement group. What the hell's that? I never knew a twin bereavement group existed. <laugh>. He said, they're around the country, an organization. I said, that sounds very original. I said, do me a favor, order dessert. I'm going home and read it tonight. And I did. And the next day we were in business and we developed Twinless. It stars James Sweeney, actor, director, writer. I've done 40 some odd movies, never worked with an actor, director, writer on the same picture. We shot in Portland, Seattle, we wrapped the picture. Dylan O'Brien plays twins. So he plays Rocky, who's gay, Roman, who's straight. And that's all I'm gonna say about the movie. Wow. I sent it to one critic and he’ssworn to secrecy, I can't say his name and he can't say my name. He called me up. And you know what he said to me? He said, David, for once in your life, I've known you for 40 years, you didn't oversell <laugh>. And then he said, congratulations, you discovered the next Hal Ashby.

*Kevin Goetz (43:13):

Well, it's so funny you said that. There is a quote that you were attributed to have said that, do you wanna work with Steven Spielberg? And you said, sure, but I'd rather discover the new Steven Spielberg.

*David Permut (43:25):

Exactly right. And I think some of the people, even Dale Launer, he was selling stereo when I first met him. There are bartenders who's written scripts for me and movies that got made how wonderful successfully. To me, that's my greatest pride is to discover that's what our goal is. Whether it's a writer, director, actor, producer, production designer. I mean, to me, discovery is what it's about. That's what really gets me excited. Any other projects? David? I have a project called Being Heumann, which is based on the true story of Judy Heumann, who is the center of President andMichelle Obama's wonderful documentary called Crip Camp. And it's based on her bestselling book. And Sian Heder adapted it. And when you come to a street corner and there's accessibility for a wheelchair that never existed before 1980, and it's a story about Judy Heumann, the activist in a wheelchair herself who fought in 1980, to have the government push a $2.3 billion infrastructure bill through with a sit-in in San Francisco, the epicenter of this event for over 30 days. They brought the government to their knees with a leader like Judy Heumann and Sian adapted it brilliantly into a script. And we shoot it this year for Apple.

Kevin Goetz (44:32):

From your major commercial movies. Let's not forget, Farce of the Penguins to what you're doing today is such an evolution of the man that's here today.

David Permut (44:44):

You know what, Kevin? If you remember when Howard Stern flew in as Fart Man to the MTV Awards, the producer on Fart Man, Jonathan Lawton wrote the script. He wrote Pretty Woman, and then he wrote Fart Man, and it was gonna be Howard's first movie. So we designed the outfit that he flew in farting with fire, spewing out his ass, coming down from the ceiling.

Kevin Goetz (45:06):

I remember, I remember that.

David Permut (45:06):

So you go from Fart Man to Hacksaw Ridge. So somebody asked me and the Farce of the Penguins with Bob Saget, you, you know, a stock footage cluster fuck. It was stock footage of penguins replicating the March of the Penguins called the Farce of the Penguins with an all-star comedy cast. It was my idea and Bob and I did it together. And so when somebody asks me, what's your taste like? I guess I gotta say from Fart Man to Hacksaw Ridge to Face/Off to some of the films I'm doing now. Sigourney Weaver. You know the thing about it, it’s eclectic, I guess eclectic would be the right word to describe my taste.

Kevin Goetz (45:42):

Indeed. Indeed. David Permut I love you, man.

David Permut (45:46):

I love you too. And we have a similar love. We both love what we do and it shows because you can tell when somebody's genuine and they have a passion. Passion's an overused word, but you have it. And I have it.

Kevin Goetz (45:56):

I want to go out with, for all of you listening, die with your memories, not your dreams. Again, thank you so much. To our listeners, I hope you enjoyed our interview today. I encourage you to check out David's many, many movies and television shows. For more filmmaking and audience testing stories, I invite you to check out my book, Audienceology,at Amazon or through my website at KevinGoetz360.com, and you can also follow me on my social media. Next time on Don't Kill the Messenger, I welcome director, writer, and producer, Chris Landon. Until then, I'm Kevin Goetz, and to you, our listeners, I appreciate you being part of the movie-making process. Your opinions matter.

Host: Kevin Goetz
Guest: David Permut
Producer: Kari Campano
Writers: Kevin Goetz, Darlene Hayman, and Kari Campano
Audio Engineer: Gary Forbes (DG Entertainment)