Podcast: Don't Kill the Messenger with Movie Research Expert Kevin Goetz
Guest: Visual Effects Pioneer, Producer, and Entrepreneur, Scott Ross

Interview Transcript:

Announcer (00:03):

From script to screen, every film is brought to life by visionary creatives and executives, all sharing one mission – to captivate the audience. Hosted by award-winning movie strategist, Kevin Goetz, our podcast, Don't Kill The Messenger, offers a filmmaking masterclass through intimate conversations with Hollywood's most influential voices. And now, your host, Kevin Goetz.

Kevin Goetz (00:30):

As many of you know, test screening a movie is a work in progress. I mean, the editing sound, music, and visual effects are often incomplete. We ask audiences to imagine the finished film, trusting that the technical elements will be polished by release. Depending on the film, those visual effects could range from massive spectacle to the most invisible kind of realism. In today's film world, visual effects aren't just about scale, they're about subtlety, nuance, and expanding the language of storytelling. In many cases, the audience doesn't even realize they're watching a visual effect, which, of course, is the point. My guest today is Scott Ross, widely recognized as one of the pioneers of visual effects. Having led some of the most influential VFX teams in film history, Scott has helped define how visual effects evolved from a tool into a core part of cinematic storytelling. He's a leader, a disruptor, a visionary, and I'm very thrilled to have him as my guest here today. Scott, thank you so much for joining me.

Scott Ross (01:45):

Thank you for having me, Kevin. I appreciate it.

Kevin Goetz (01:48):

I have so many questions to ask. I'm gonna start at the best place, at the beginning. I wanna know what the industry was like when you entered it. Probably in the.

Scott Ross (01:59):

In the early eighties.

Kevin Goetz (02:01):

I mean, it's about the most exciting time one could enter your field, correct?

*Scott Ross (02:06):

Yeah. At the time, it was maybe three companies that were doing work like we were doing at Industrial Light and Magic, and it was coming off of Star Wars and Close Encounters of the Third Kind. And so Hollywood, in a lot of ways, as I'm sure you're quite aware, was turned upside down. So for all of these years, they were making these musicals and Bible stories and whatnot, and all of a sudden this new thing came in called sci-fi. And Sci-fi blew away everybody. People were around the block, as you recall, probably at Gromans and other major movie theaters around the United States. And the studios went, oh my God, there's this new thing in town. And so now it was something that everybody had to have, a big visual effects movie. Absolutely.

Kevin Goetz (02:55):

Let's go back to Hofstra Uhhuh. You're a New Yorker like I am. You've come from where? Long Island?

Scott Ross (03:00):

I was born in the South Bronx, and then I moved to Queens and then, um,

Kevin Goetz (03:05):

You have two strikes now.

Scott Ross (03:06):

Yeah, I know <laugh>, and then I went to undergraduate school at Hofstra.

Kevin Goetz (03:10):

So if I did my research correctly, you were a film major.

Scott Ross (03:12):

That I was.

Kevin Goetz (03:13):

And they didn't have film majors at often in 1974 or whatever.

Scott Ross (03:19):

That's correct. Early 1970.

Kevin Goetz (03:21):

You graduate as a film major, you didn't want to go into special effects. What did you wanna do? 

*Scott Ross (03:27):

No, well, actually I didn't really want to go into film either. What I really wanted to do was keep my butt out of Vietnam. That's what I really wanted to do. And so at the time, I was a musician, I played in bands. And so I thought, how cool would it be to really be a music major? And then I get involved in music classes and all these kids know 16th century counterpoint harmony and understand how to read bass clef and treble clef.

Kevin Goetz (03:55):

Not your jam.

Scott Ross (03:55):

And I, yeah, all I know is 1 4 5 progressions and I'm singing the blues.

Kevin Goetz (03:59):

Right. You're doing chords. You're not doing theory. Yeah.

Scott Ross (04:01):

So I needed to get out and the only thing that sort of made sense to me, I took a film class, was I love film. Why not major in film? And so that's where it all started.

Kevin Goetz (04:12):

You know, I think about a visual effect that is so embedded in my brain, which is the parting of the Red Sea and the 10 Commandments. Mm-hmm. And it's so laughable when you look at it, of course now. And it was really cutting edge.

Scott Ross (04:26):

Absolutely.

Kevin Goetz (04:27):

At the time. Do you remember that?

Scott Ross (04:28):

Of course, Cecil B. So interestingly enough, a little bit of background. So at Industrial Light and Magic, when I got there, everything that was being done was being done optically and chemically, there was no digital. Right. So it was,

Kevin Goetz (04:41):

What do you mean by that?

Scott Ross (04:41):

Models and miniatures are shot on celluloid film. Generally Vista Vision, which is 35 millimeter eight perf. So the film moves from left to right as opposed to up and down. So you have a much bigger frame. And um, when I got there, all of the compositing, that means the layering of different levels of film being put together was being done on what was known as an optical printer. So you took multiple film loops and you put them together and rephotographed them. And to your point, the major optical printer that we had at Industrial Light and Magic was the same optical printer on the 10 Commandments.

Kevin Goetz (05:24):

Wow. Wow.

Scott Ross (05:25):

That's how long that technology had been alive.

Kevin Goetz (05:29):

Well, the first visual effects started essentially when? Because I remember when I think about visual effects, I think of like car driving and rear screen projection, and it looks really fake.

Scott Ross (05:42):

Right. Jimmy Stewart sitting in a car bouncing around.

Kevin Goetz (05:45):

Exactly.

Scott Ross (05:46):

Yeah. Right.

Kevin Goetz (05:46):

Mm-hmm <affirmative>. Except it's not like the Flintstones where there was the same thing that kept going around and around and around, but King Kong.

Scott Ross (05:54):

Mm-hmm <affirmative>. 

Kevin Goetz (05:55):

When you look at those, what goes through your mind? Who've been through the genesis and the evolution of that?

*Scott Ross (06:04):

So, I'm a kid and I'm at the Ward Theater in the Bronx, and I'm watching Flash Gordon, black and white, really horrible visual effects models and miniatures that are bouncing all over the place, scaled. That doesn't work. But when I'm, you know, eight years old watching that, I'm thinking to myself, wow, that's great. I mean, I, I bought it. I bought it a hundred percent. And the analog to that is I happen to be a roadie for a while, and I work for the Allman Brothers Band. And so I'm at the Fillmore and we're recording live at the Fillmore East. And I listened to that record and I think it's the greatest recording I've ever heard. And now, when I listen to it today, it is totally compressed. It just doesn't sound anywhere near as digital recording sound today. So over time, as the needle of time moves forward, what one thinks was perfect and great and believable no longer is because things have changed.

Kevin Goetz (06:59):

So, take me through what was revolutionary for its time. So let's go back to the thirties and forties. Gimme a movie.

Scott Ross (07:06):

We can go back even further. We can go back to Georges Méliès' Trip to the Moon.

Kevin Goetz (07:10):

Oh wow.

Scott Ross (07:11):

Right.

Kevin Goetz (07:12):

So that was one of the first,

Scott Ross (07:13):

That's the first.

Kevin Goetz (07:14):

And what was it exactly?

Scott Ross (07:15):

There is a picture of the moon and the moon has a smile on its face and this rocket ship comes across and slams into the moon.

Kevin Goetz (07:23):

It's iconic.

Scott Ross (07:24):

Or the shot of the Great Train Robbery where all of a sudden we're on a train and the train's moving and there are people fighting. And that's all visual effects.

Kevin Goetz (07:34):

Did they call them visual effects artists at that time?

Scott Ross (07:37):

I'm not sure they did. I think they might've at that time confused it and called it special effects.

Kevin Goetz (07:42):

Got it.

Scott Ross (07:42):

Which is a difference.

Kevin Goetz (07:43):

And so what happens, say as we move into the forties and fifties, gimme another seminal movie.

Scott Ross (07:48):

Well then King Kong and models and miniature and what's known as stop motion animation, where these.

Kevin Goetz (07:54):

Is that what they did with the ape?

Scott Ross (07:55):

Yeah.

Kevin Goetz (07:55):

On the Empire State Building?

Scott Ross (07:56):

Yep. Mm-hmm <affirmative>.

Kevin Goetz (07:57):

It was actually like what we know is a much more sophisticated stop motion.

*Scott Ross (08:01):

Yeah. So they build this armature, and the armature has joints that wear the ape's hands and legs and elbows would be, and then a rubber creature is put on top of it. And then you would move the hand and shoot a frame, and then move the hand a little bit more and shoot another frame and then just play it at that time a lot faster. But the problem that you have is you have no what's known as motion blur. Right. So then stop go motion was created. And go motion was a lot of like the ton in Star Wars where Phil Tippett shoots go motion, where they make a frame, but they keep the aperture open to get blur. And it's moved by a mechanical device, or a hand is moving it and the aperture is open. So you see the blur of the motion. And that's called Go Motion.

Kevin Goetz (08:53):

Who invented that?

Scott Ross (08:54):

Well, I don't know who invented it, but the person, I think that was sort of like the maestro of it was Phil Tippett.

Kevin Goetz (09:00):

I thought you were gonna say George Lucas.

Scott Ross (09:02):

No, no, no, no. His people invented stuff.

Kevin Goetz (09:05):

Industrial Light and Magic.

Scott Ross (09:06):

He, he did until Disney bought it. Correct. And you ran it. I did.

Kevin Goetz (09:10):

Mm-hmm <affirmative>. Wasn't Sid Ganis there?

Scott Ross (09:12):

Sid Ganis was the head of publicity, I believe, at Lucasfilm at the time. Lovely guy.

Kevin Goetz (09:19):

Oh yeah. He lovely. He's one of my lovely guy. He's one of my dudes.

Scott Ross (09:23):

I have a good Sid Ganis story. What is it? So what was happening is that Hunt Red October, the director is John McTiernan and John McTiernan loved Richard Edlund, who is a visual effects supervisor. And Richard Edlund used to be at ILM and then started his own company called Boss Films. And so the work was going on there and John McTiernan was disappointed with the work.

Kevin Goetz (09:44):

What was he disappointed about it?

*Scott Ross (09:45):

The submarines weren't looking right. It wasn't what he envisioned. And so we get a call and I speak to him and I speak to the studio, which was paramount at the time. And I'm told that we have the work. So we're shooting on what's known as Vista Vision. I used to call John McTiernan, the optometrist director. John would be like, do you like this? Do you like this? Do you like this? I get a call from the studio and the production executive on the film, Lance Young, he calls me on the phone and he says, Scott, listen, the studio's not liking what John is doing. And so we'd like you to send a set of dailies to the studio and a set of dailies to John, and then we'll make the decision. And I said, well, you know, you're my client, but you need to tell John that you're doing this. He said, oh no, we're not gonna do that.

Kevin Goetz (10:35):

Oh, smart man.

Scott Ross (10:35):

We're just gonna have you send it. And I said, okay, so let me speak to Sid Ganis. And I get Sid Ganis on the phone and Sid's like, there's no way we're gonna do that. John's the director. In fact, we're gonna pull in Ned Tannin and Ned's gonna oversee it, and we're not gonna have this problem. And Scott, you did exactly what you were supposed to do. Thank you very much. So forever indebted to Sid Ganis.

Kevin Goetz (10:58):

Well, that's Sid Ganis.

Scott Ross (11:00):

Yeah.

Kevin Goetz (11:00):

That is a great story. And it shows, he's always trying to do the right thing and he's very smart and trying to make everyone feel good.

Scott Ross (11:09):

Mm-hmm <affirmative>.

Kevin Goetz (11:09):

You know? Yep. Classy. Classy man. And Nancy, his wife. Yeah. Is another.

Scott Ross (11:13):

Another classy gal.

Kevin Goetz (11:13):

Terrific gal. Yeah. So let me ask you about the names of the greats in the business. I, and many of our listeners know Stan Winston. Hmm. Who you ultimately partnered with mm-hmm <affirmative>. Um, to start Digital Domain with Jim Cameron.

Scott Ross (11:34):

Correct.

Kevin Goetz (11:36):

Tell me the original greats. I want to know some of these names 'cause I think it's important for particularly our young listeners to know who started this all.

Scott Ross (11:46):

Well, if you wanna go back.

Kevin Goetz (11:48):

Please.

Scott Ross (11:48):

Ray Harryhausen is one of the greats. He was Optimist Prime, the guy that everybody looked up to back in the day doing movies like Clash of the Titans, Seventh Voyage of Sinbad, Jason and the Argonauts. All world-class stuff that even today, visual effects people look at and go, that was the beginning. As things move along, Doug Trumbull is another one.

Kevin Goetz (12:12):

Doug Trumbull.

Scott Ross (12:12):

Yeah. May he rest in peace as well. And then visual effects supervisors like Dennis Muren and Kenny Ralston and people like that. Industrial Light and Magic people that are really pushing the envelopes.

Kevin Goetz (12:24):

They were the stars there.

Scott Ross (12:26):

They were the stars there. Yes. Correct. And then, you know, when digital starts to come of age, then this whole new group of people that are looking at doing things differently start to really make waves.

Kevin Goetz (12:39):

Gimme a date, 1987?

Scott Ross (12:40):

So we're still in the eighties.

Kevin Goetz (12:43):

Sort of Jurassic Park?

Scott Ross (12:45):

Just a little before Jurassic. This is like The Abyss.

Kevin Goetz (12:49):

Which I worked on. And it was unbelievably fascinating that underwater work.

Scott Ross (12:54):

Yeah. That was really the first time we get to see world-class computer graphics in a film that's somewhat important to the storyline.

Kevin Goetz (13:03):

Starting in the late eighties.

Scott Ross (13:04):

Yeah. Starting in the late eighties, mid to late eighties.

Kevin Goetz (13:07):

Yeah. That's incredible. By the way, wasn't Stan Winston for example, known for like more puppetry?

Scott Ross (13:12):

Yes. Stan was not a computer person at all. Stan was puppets and animatronics. So he would build these giant creatures that were all run by stepper motors. Another brilliant guy.

Kevin Goetz (13:23):

You were gonna say?

Scott Ross (13:24):

So, back in the day, there was a difference between film and video in terms of resolution. 2000 lines of resolution means that the scan that goes across the screen, think of it as like your sheets that you buy.

Kevin Goetz (13:37):

Thread count.

Scott Ross (13:37):

Thread count. Exactly right. Exactly right. It's like thread count. And so the thread count on film.

Kevin Goetz (13:44):

The higher you get was.

Scott Ross (13:44):

Much higher.

Kevin Goetz (13:45):

The better it is, better resolution.

Scott Ross (13:46):

The thread count on video was much lower. So we were running around, we had a thing called Nike net. So to be able to take data drives out of machines and transfer them to another machine, we would give it to a PA and he would literally run from building to building. And that was the interface.

Kevin Goetz (14:09):

What was the first project you worked on where you were really convinced that you'd fell into the right career?

Scott Ross (14:17):

Yeah, I still have visions of wanting to be Mick Jagger, you know?

Kevin Goetz (14:20):

Ah, <laugh>. I get it, I get it.

*Scott Ross (14:22):

But I got swept up because I'm comfortable with technology, I'm comfortable with managing people and I love creativity. I love putting teams together, and I can inspire folks. That's my secret weapon. The ability to be able to inspire folks.

Kevin Goetz (14:42):

You took one of my big questions, which you know, since you listened to the podcast.

Scott Ross (14:46):

That I did.

Kevin Goetz (14:47):

I asked, what is your superpower?

Scott Ross (14:49):

Right?

Kevin Goetz (14:49):

And the research that I've done is that you not only inspire people, but you also build cultures. Mm. Culture’s critical. Culture’s critical. Couldn't agree more as a owner of my own company. Yeah. Who Framed Roger Rabbit was a seminal film for you?

Scott Ross (15:04):

Oh yeah.

Kevin Goetz (15:04):

Tell us why.

Scott Ross (15:06):

Well, I came to Industrial Light and Magic, not really knowing much about this optical stuff, this chemical stuff, shooting on film, 'cause I came at a video post-production.

Kevin Goetz (15:15):

And that was Bob Zemeckis.

*Scott Ross (15:16):

Yeah, Bobby Zemeckis. And I didn't really fully understand the process. And so that was my virgin run where I really started to understand, oh, okay, we shoot it on blue screen. And back then, you know, and then we were on a sound stage in England.

Kevin Goetz (15:33):

Who told you to shoot on blue screen?

Scott Ross (15:34):

Well this visual effects supervisor on the film was Ken Ralston.

Kevin Goetz (15:37):

Ah, yeah. And worked very close with Bob.

Scott Ross (15:40):

That's correct. And Steve Starkey.

Kevin Goetz (15:43):

Now you are a young guy, you're at ILM.

Scott Ross (15:46):

Mm-hmm <affirmative>.

Kevin Goetz (15:46):

And ILM had to bid on this. Correct?

Scott Ross (15:50):

Yeah, we had to bid on everything.

Kevin Goetz (15:51):

And you want it because of inventing kind of this new technique of working with sort of the animation and live action.

Scott Ross (15:58):

We want it for a couple of reasons, as you well know, it's not about business, it's about personal things. So the personal relationship that Industrial Light and Magic had with Amblin was very, very deep. The relationship that we had with Zumeckis, with Bobby Z was very, very deep. Cocoon, right? So there were these ongoing relationships that everybody felt comfortable with. And Kenny Ralston was the guy that had done other work with Bob Z. And so that was part of it. Now that's not saying that we get the bid because of that. We're the front runner and now it's about pricing and now it's about capabilities in terms of relationships. Industrial Light and Magic was the industry leader, but now it's all about pricing. And so you need to come in on a price that the producers in the studios feel comfortable with, and they never feel comfortable with anything.

Kevin Goetz (16:56):

Let me ask you a basic question. Why are visual effects so expensive?

*Scott Ross (17:01):

They're really expensive because of the number of personnel needed to be able to produce the work.

Kevin Goetz (17:08):

Can you unpack that for us, please?

Scott Ross (17:09):

I'll give you an example. We were just talking earlier before the podcast, and I was talking about Electric State, and I'm looking at the credits in Electric State.

Kevin Goetz (17:17):

The new Netflix film.

Scott Ross (17:17):

The new Netflix film

Kevin Goetz (17:18):

Which is purportedly a very expensive film.

*Scott Ross (17:22):

$225 million or something like that. So as you look at each and every department, the departments are 10 people in the camera department, eight producers, five people in the sound department, whatever it is. And 925 people in the visual effects department. That's going to change in a very, very big way.

Kevin Goetz (17:44):

That's the second half of our podcast. Do not think I'm not going there.

Scott Ross (17:47):

Okay, good.

Kevin Goetz (17:48):

So before we actually take a break, I wanna talk about two greats that you've worked with George Lucas and get your thoughts on George and Jim Cameron.

Scott Ross (17:57):

So the George Lucas relationship is a very quick and simple one. I ran Industrial Light and Magic.

Kevin Goetz (18:04):

How'd you get that job?

Scott Ross (18:05):

I interviewed, I was running one pass in San Francisco. They were looking for somebody to be head of operations. I interviewed with 45 people, including the receptionist. And somehow I passed mustard and I got the job. And then I moved up the ranks very quickly to become the general manager.

Kevin Goetz (18:22):

So you're a COO essentially hired as a COO?

Scott Ross (18:24):

Correct.

Kevin Goetz (18:25):

But then did you ever actually work on the effects?

Scott Ross (18:28):

No.

Kevin Goetz (18:28):

So you personally never received the Academy Award?

Scott Ross (18:31):

No. So the analogy that I use is like asking Steve Jobs, did you actually program that Apple Macintosh? Did you wire the Macintosh?

Kevin Goetz (18:40):

I had Mike Medavoy, as you know, several weeks ago. And I'm saying, Mike, you did this, you did this. And he kept saying, no others did this. But I said, no, but you greenlit it, so I know Scott, your…

Scott Ross (18:52):

That's the gig.

Kevin Goetz (18:53):

Yeah, yeah, exactly. So it's kind of the one that doesn't get the shiny object literally, but you are behind it.

Scott Ross (19:00):

Yeah. So George, I get a job at Lucasfilm. I'm director of operations. I become general manager of ILM. I ultimately become senior vice president overseeing multiple divisions, including Skywalker Sound, THX, Lucasfilm Commercial Productions, et cetera.

Kevin Goetz (19:16):

You started a lot of those, did you? I did. You. I, let's not not give you that credit.

*Scott Ross (19:19):

Thank you. And I only met George twice. That's astounding. In deference to George, I'm a huge fan of George Lucas and what he's done and what he's done for the industry. I'm a huge fan of his movies and he's an incredibly introspective, uncomfortable around people and he just retreated.

Kevin Goetz (19:39):

Okay. Jim Cameron,

*Scott Ross (19:41):

That's a horse of a different color. Jim Cameron is one of the greatest filmmakers that ever lived.

Kevin Goetz (19:45):

Maybe the best.

Scott Ross (19:46):

Yeah.

Kevin Goetz (19:47):

There's different levels of filmmaker because of course you've got your John Ford, right?

Scott Ross (19:51):

Sure.

*Kevin Goetz (19:52):

And you've got your Steven Spielberg and you have your Woody Allen on the other side. But Jim Cameron has found a lane where he's not only an extraordinary storyteller, but a visualist.

Scott Ross (20:07):

Mm-hmm <affirmative>.

Kevin Goetz (20:07):

And a visionary.

Scott Ross (20:08):

Mm-hmm <affirmative>.

Kevin Goetz (20:09):

Tell us about him.

Scott Ross (20:11):

Well, what can I say? He was my partner. I wouldn't have been able to start Digital Domain had it not been for Jim Cameron.

Kevin Goetz (20:18):

Jim Cameron, who reached out to him? How did that work?

Scott Ross (20:19):

I reached out to him.

Kevin Goetz (20:21):

And said?

*Scott Ross (20:21):

And said there was a fellow that we were all friends with and I was having a conversation with him and he said, you know, why don't you talk to Jim Cameron? Jim Cameron, I think, would be really interested in what it is you are trying to do. And so I've had a relationship with him through the Abyss and Terminator 2 at Industrial Light and Magic. So I reached out to him and told him about what I wanted to do with Digital Domain, and he was on board and excited.Who was your third partner? Stan Winston.

Kevin Goetz (20:48):

And how did you know Stan Winston?

*Scott Ross (20:50):

Well, it's a funny story. So of course I knew who Stan Winston was. And at Industrial Light and Magic, we had a really big creature shop. So we were in competition with Stan Winston and Stan Winston and Rob Bottin were sort of the gold standard. They did the best work. So I knew of him. I had never met him. So I flew down from Northern California to Burbank to have a meeting with Jim to discuss this new fledgling company where we were gonna get our financing and what we were gonna name it, et cetera, and refine the business plan. And I walk into Light Storm Entertainment in Burbank, which used to be their headquarters and, and Stan Winston. And you gotta love him. He's the kind of guy that would walk over you and give you a big kiss, you know, give you a big hug or tweak you in the places that you don't want to be tweaked. He was that kind of guy, you know?

Kevin Goetz (21:42):

 Yeah. Fun, fun.

Scott Ross (21:42):

Really fun. Actually. We became very good friends. And so Stan sits down at the table and what Stan was coming off of was Jurassic Park was such a big hit, but the stories that came out of Jurassic Park were all about Industrial Light and Magic.

Kevin Goetz (22:00):

How long were you at ILM?

Scott Ross (22:01):

I was there from the mid-1980s to 1992.

Kevin Goetz (22:05):

Okay, so six years-ish.

Scott Ross (22:07):

Yeah.

Kevin Goetz (22:07):

Yeah. And when did you start Digital Domain? I'm trying to…

Scott Ross (22:09):

1993.

Kevin Goetz (22:10):

Got it. So you went right into it.

Scott Ross (22:12):

Oh yeah.

Kevin Goetz (22:12):

And how long were you at Digital Domain for?

Scott Ross (22:14):

11 years.

Kevin Goetz (22:15):

Wow.

Scott Ross (22:16):

Yeah.

Kevin Goetz (22:16):

It still exists.

Scott Ross (22:17):

It sure does. 

Kevin Goetz (22:18):

You still own it?

Scott Ross (22:18):

No, no, no. We were Jim, Stan and I and IBM and Cox were the equity shareholders and we were bought out by this fellow named John Textor and Michael Bay. And then John Textor bankrupted the company, and in bankruptc,y the Chinese came in and bought it, and now the Chinese own it.

Kevin Goetz (22:37):

And that's how you live in Santa Barbara. 

Scott Ross (22:39):

That's true.

Kevin Goetz (22:41):

<laugh>. Touche. Okay, so Jim and you and Stan start the company. Yeah. And you are like now the new Gold Standard?

*Scott Ross (22:50):

Well, because of the names attached, mostly Jim's name, we have this press conference at the Four Seasons in Beverly Hills, and everybody shows up and we're on the front page of the Hollywood Reporter and we're on the front page of Variety. So it was not like this twitchy putchik kind of company that starts, we have IBM as our investor, and we have Jim Cameron as the chairman of the company. So it was like right out of the stall, we're running at a hundred miles an hour. And so now we have to prove ourselves. And because we're a brand new company, I have to hire people from all over the world. And I'm hiring people in an industry that's sort of brand new. So there aren't a lot of people.

Kevin Goetz (23:31):

So you head backing, you said from?

Scott Ross (23:32):

IBM.

Kevin Goetz (23:33):

IBM and Cox.

Scott Ross (23:34):

Later Cox.

Kevin Goetz (23:35):

So they gave you your seed money, basically your VC to start this thing? Correct. How many initial employees did you need? You needed to staff up pretty quickly.

Scott Ross (23:42):

Very, very quickly. So the first number of employees were probably 10, we also had to find a location. We had to buy gear, we had to do all of those things. And pretty soon we were 150 people or 200 people. 

Kevin Goetz (23:54):

What was your first movie?

Scott Ross (23:55):

The first movie was Color of Night. And then the second thing we did was we did something for Tim Burton. Stan and Tim were friendly and so Tim started a new production company and he wanted a logo for his production company. So we did a logo for Tim Burton. And then the next project we have is True Lies.

Kevin Goetz (24:14):

One of the best action sequences. I'm not sure. Did you attend test screenings?

Scott Ross (24:19):

I attended test screenings a bit. I wound up producing a movie called Secondhand Lions and I.

Kevin Goetz (24:24):

New Line. Right?

Scott Ross (24:25):

It was New Line. Correct. And so I was a producer on that film. So I would show up at some test screenings and I learned a lot of what you guys do and I'm so thankful for you.

Kevin Goetz (24:34):

Well, but let me ask you about True Lies. You didn't go to those test screenings? No. Okay, let me tell you about those.

Scott Ross (24:39):

Okay.

Kevin Goetz (24:39):

They were extraordinary. One of the greatest things that I learned and the brilliance of Jim Cameron was how each set piece, each action sequence was stronger and better than the one that preceded it.

Scott Ross (24:54):

So it grew.

Kevin Goetz (24:55):

So what are you gonna do at the end? And he tops it.

Scott Ross (24:58):

Right?

*Kevin Goetz (24:59):

I thought it was just the perfect cadence. Whenever I used an example for years after that of how you needed to build upon, you can't have your strongest thing in the beginning and then you sort of dissipate as you go. And then even if you do do that, your end set piece, your final set piece must be bigger than what preceded it.

Scott Ross (25:18):

Correct.

Kevin Goetz (25:18):

And he taught me that. And the audience responded in kind and it was a massive success. I remember Tom Arnold and Jamie Lee Curtis, not only of course Schwarzenegger, but in those supporting roles really just knocked it outta the park. Hey, listen, when we come back, I want to talk about where things are going and the future because that is gonna be very, very important for our listeners to hear. And also, I'm extremely curious as to what your take is. We'll be back in a moment. Listeners, The Motion Picture Television Fund is a nonprofit charitable organization that supports working and retired members of the entertainment community. This wonderfully run organization offers assistance for living and aging with dignity and purpose in the areas of health and social services, including temporary financial assistance, case management, and residential living. And it has been a crucial lifeline to thousands during and beyond critical times that our industry continues to experience. To learn more, visit mptf.com. Please join me in helping others in our industry during times of need. There are so many ways to offer support and get involved. Thank you. We are back with Scott Ross. Scott, I am fascinated by what you do and what you've created. I do want to call attention to your new book that just came out last December called Upstart: The Digital Film Revolution. In that book, you do mention the fear that everyone is talking about, and that is AI.

Scott Ross (27:11):

Yeah.

Kevin Goetz (27:11):

I'd love for you to expound a little bit and kind of tell us how AI lands with you when you hear the two letters.

Scott Ross (27:21):

Right, right. <laugh>,

Kevin Goetz (27:23):

What goes through your mind?

*Scott Ross (27:24):

You know, AI is an incredibly wonderful technology that will revolutionize the way the world works. It will save thousands of lives, and it will make life even more enjoyable than it is. But it's a paradox. On the other hand, it's also really, really frightening and can do terrible things. We'll put lots of people out of work and, in the wrong hands, could be incredibly destructive.

Kevin Goetz (27:59):

It's about the best definition I've heard. I was thinking of the word misunderstood. Mm-hmm <affirmative>. As well, because everyone, including my own company, we're all scrambling to figure out how to use it.

Scott Ross (28:10):

Sure.

Kevin Goetz (28:10):

And what kind of data as inputs are relevant and meaningful. I wanna talk about with visual effects specifically, almost going back to the original nomenclature of special effects. Because even putting words in someone's mouth and that is very controversial right now is happening. Does that fall under the visual effects department?

Scott Ross (28:33):

Well, if it's lip-syncing animation, that would be animation.

Kevin Goetz (28:38):

Oh, I see. Even animation wouldn't fall under visual effects.

Scott Ross (28:41):

No. There are visual effects in animation, but animation is above that.

Kevin Goetz (28:46):

So if I'm doing that work and big set piece explosions and so forth, am I going to two different companies?

Scott Ross (28:53):

No. If there's a big set explosion, the set explosion is gonna be done by a special effects team. If it's Digital Domain, chances are we're going to people that do pyro and special effects

Kevin Goetz (29:06):

And they say, well, we also want to redo their voices with a different voice.

Scott Ross (29:12):

If you wanna redo their voices, you would go to a company like Digital Domain or ILM or the other 10,000 companies now that are out there, and you would ask them probably to use artificial intelligence for the…

Kevin Goetz (29:24):

Voice matching.

Scott Ross (29:24):

For the voice matching. And then you would go in and manipulate the image in 3D CGI to change the formation of their mouth and lips to match the new dialogue that you want to say.

Kevin Goetz (29:38):

That pretty easy to do?

Scott Ross (29:40):

It's done. It's not like a super special thing. That can be done in India and it can be done relatively inexpensively, but it's specialized. I mean we're not able to do it at home yet.

Kevin Goetz (29:55):

You would get asked, I imagine to do character passes, say on an actress who doesn't like her turkey neck. You might have to take that and smooth that out. Is that a visual effect?

Scott Ross (30:07):

Yes. There are actresses or actors that don't think they're as good looking as they need to be. And so we've had to do some beauty passes on them.

Kevin Goetz (30:16):

That just opened up a whole line of questioning for me. Going back to some of those stories. I heard by the way, 300, a lot of the men weren't wearing things under their kilts.

Scott Ross (30:27):

Right. And certain things were showing.

Kevin Goetz (30:28):

So there was a lot of ball removal.

Scott Ross (30:30):

<laugh>, the Maple Leaf Ballroom when we were kids was, do you remember that?

Kevin Goetz (30:34):

No, no.

Scott Ross (30:34):

It was a radio show and as a 12-year-old I thought it was hysterical.

Kevin Goetz (30:39):

So tell me about the threat that is imminent with AI in the visual effects world.

Scott Ross (30:47):

Okay.

Kevin Goetz (30:47):

What is first to be affected that we should be concerned about?

Scott Ross (30:52):

Are you using the universal we or are you using the visual effects community we?

Kevin Goetz (30:57):

Visual effects community we.

Scott Ross (30:58):

Okay. So studios need visual effects in a very big way because, as you know, as probably is better than anyone else, that the International box office is now more important than domestic box office.

Kevin Goetz (31:15):

100 percent.

*Scott Ross (31:15):

And so we know that movies like Driving Miss Daisy are not gonna play in China. So what is it that allows international movies to play across international lines and it's imagery. And so if it's imagery, what's gonna put butts in the seat? It's gonna be images that nobody's ever seen before. It's like Day After Tomorrow. Or those kinds of images that excite people, they're gonna wanna see that. So in China or in Japan or in other countries around the world, and in America as well, visual effects are really critical to the success of box office. So as the cost of visual effects have gone up, basically because of the number of people needed. Right. We talked about that. The studios have a hard time understanding why this stuff costs so much. Why does it cost so much? You, Scott Ross, you're probably making a ton of money, aren't you driving a Rolls Royce? No. Visual effects companies don't make money. Do you drive a Rolls Royce? I do not. No. What nor would I want to? Okay, keep going. <laugh>. So, so visual effects companies don't make money. And what's obvious is the number of visual effects that have gone bankrupt and closed over the last 10 years, which is extraordinary. Rhythm and Ase now Technicolor and MPC and et cetera, et cetera.

Kevin Goetz (32:36):

And because the margins are so low, they're on, they keep getting driven down of cost cutting. Cost cutting.

Scott Ross (32:41):

Yeah. So now, because there's no money to be made.

Kevin Goetz (32:43):

So it's not scalable is what you're saying at the end of the day.

Scott Ross (32:46):

Well, till now. So because visual effects are people that have to figure out how to make the impossible possible. They're faced with this issue of how do I continue to compete and bring my prices down? Then add on top of that the unbelievable tax subsidies and subsidies that's happening around the world. Now, the tax subsidies and subsidies do not inure to the benefit of the visual effects company. They wind up inuring to the benefit of the studio. So now a studio comes to a visual effects company, which by the way costs millions and millions and millions of dollars to be able to facilitate, buy the equipment, get the people in place, et cetera. That the studio comes and says, you know, if you want this job, you really need to do it in Vancouver, or you need to do it in Montreal, or you need to do it in London, or now you need to do it in Australia.

Kevin Goetz (33:41):

And they want a tax break on the whole kit and caboodle.

Scott Ross (33:43):

Correct.

Kevin Goetz (33:44):

So that means you have to physically have your plant there.

Scott Ross (33:47):

Correct. So now on a hardly any margin basis business, you need to now open up a new facility in London. Now you're doing, and it costs you millions and millions of dollars. So the margins just got even skinnier. And then, when you add to that, you have to move some of your key people there and put them up because the talent base isn't there. Now it costs even more. And then all of a sudden the UK, which is giving you 20%, Australia, says we're gonna give you 30%. And so now you've gotta build a facility in Australia. So it's a race to the bottom.

Kevin Goetz (34:23):

Wow.

*Scott Ross (34:23):

So what happened in the aughts was because visual effects people try to make the impossible possible. They recognized that a large portion of their overhead and costs were personnel. So they said, let's open up facilities in countries where the cost of living is significantly less than the cost of living in the United States. And all of a sudden,we saw many, many, many visual effects facilities open in India. In fact, there are probably 20,000 or more visual effects workers that work in India.

Kevin Goetz (35:00):

Hmm.

Scott Ross (35:01):

And if you saw Mustafa, 90% of the work on Mustafa was done in India. So now we have this overhead in India, but we have to compete against each other. And I use the analogy of airlines. So if you own an airline and you have a hundred planes and you have all of the infrastructure needed for that airline and you figure out that it costs you a hundred dollars for every seat on that plane, you need to charge a hundred dollars to break even. But all of a sudden,your competitor's charging 90 or 80 or 70, it's better the company to charge $70 because if my planes sit on the ground, I'm getting $0. So the industry has been eating itself.

Kevin Goetz (35:47):

Sure.

Scott Ross (35:47):

Over and over and over driving things further and and forcing bankruptcies. And that was what happened during the aughts and the early 2010s. And then this new thing comes along and it's called artificial intelligence.

Kevin Goetz (36:02):

Before we go there, I just want to comment an aside here about test screenings, where we'll test things where the visual effects are pretty incomplete, raw. And I always say to the heads of the studios, I mean no disrespect to your industry, but I say test it. Let's see. You may wanna cut that sequence.

Scott Ross (36:21):

Sure.

Kevin Goetz (36:21):

You'll be saving an enormous amount of money.

Scott Ross (36:23):

Sure.

Kevin Goetz (36:24):

You know, even animation, what does animation cost about a million dollars a minute. Correct. Is the general correct sort of way we talk about it? I can only imagine. Is there an average, like when you talk about a special effects, even in terms of seconds, what a complete rendering of a?

Scott Ross (36:40):

Of a shot.

Kevin Goetz (36:40):

Yeah. What does it cost?

Scott Ross (36:42):

So it depends what the shot is. $5,000 a shot to, I've been as high as $120,000 a shot.

Kevin Goetz (36:50):

And a shot being…

Scott Ross (36:52):

Five to 10 seconds.

Kevin Goetz (36:54):

Wow. That's a huge spread.

*Scott Ross (36:57):

So driving the price down is critical. The studios want it faster and cheaper and faster and cheaper and faster and cheaper. And so when AI comes around and is capable of doing at first all of the roto mat painting, compositing work, all of those people will lose their jobs and those visual effects workers there. You know, if I said there were 20,000 of them in India, I don't know how many there are in the world, a lot of those people will lose their jobs. My take is 75% of the visual effects workers around the world will lose their jobs to artificial intelligence. And then as artificial intelligence becomes generative ai, right? So it now is more salient and has the ability to create and I think it will have the ability to create it cuts even further. Now here's the good news, 'cause there's a paradox.

*(37:51):

Please. Good news. The good news is that just like when cameras move from giant Mitchell Blimped, 35 millimeter cameras, of which there were X number in the entire world, and if you wanted to make a feature film, you needed to have access to it. That has now been replaced with fairly democratized technology. So you can shoot a movie now,really with your iPhone. So what's gonna happen is the whole ability to be able to craft films will become much more democratized. And therefore, a lot more people will have access to those technologies. And now the question is whether they have the talent and skill sets to create art. But the throughput, the impedance factor of being able to get to a studio, to have a conversation with Sid Ganis or to have a conversation with Michael Ovitz to get the talent that's gonna go away and the ability for these filmmakers, hopefully creative filmmakers, they will have access to tools that will allow them to create images that look as good, if not better than the images we've seen today.

Kevin Goetz (39:05):

I'm gonna ask you, it's kind of a fun little round, I'm gonna, I'm gonna throw out some names of movies. I just want you to give me a one-line answer on what you remember from a visualist effects standpoint from those.

Scott Ross (39:19):

Assuming I saw them <laugh>.

Kevin Goetz (39:20):

Well you've worked on them and under your tutelage, you've won I think seven Competitive Academy Awards.

Scott Ross (39:27):

Mm-hmm <affirmative>

Kevin Goetz (39:28):

As well as sci tech awards under your watch. So the first one I wanna ask you about is Apollo 13.

*Scott Ross (39:36):

The movie I most enjoyed working on in my entire life. First of all, you have a director who is comfortable in his clothes. He’s not second-guessing you. He's like, I remember he walked over to Rob Legato, who is the visual effects supervisor and the Saturn five liftoff. And Rob said, so what do you want me to do here? And Ron Howard said, make it look like Marty Scorsese shot it, and that was it. And Rob and the team went away and they delivered it, and Ron said, you nailed it.

Kevin Goetz (40:09):

I don't even know what that means.

Scott Ross (40:11):

The movement and closeups and you know, sort of a Marty Scorsese sensibility. Right.

Kevin Goetz (40:19):

In that case, I guess I didn't know. But speaking of Ron Howard, what about Cocoon?

Scott Ross (40:24):

Any Ron Howard film is a joy because Ron Howard is a joy and Cocoon hell of a cast. A great story, a tear jerker now that I'm gonna turn 74 this year. I keep looking for that boat and those eggs.

Kevin Goetz (40:39):

The Curious Case of Benjamin Button.

*Scott Ross (40:42):

I've known David Fincher since David Fincher was a boy and I love him. Incredibly talented. Absolutely beautiful movie. It was a real challenge because that was the first time really you needed to create a computer-generatedhuman being that was believable of a very famous person. It's one thing if you're creating a computer-generatedversion of somebody we've never met, but if it's somebody that's really famous, we know what he looks like. That's a super challenge.

Kevin Goetz (41:14):

Is it difficult to de-age someone

Scott Ross (41:18):

Less so today than it was back at Benjamin Buttons because of AI.

Kevin Goetz (41:22):

Ai?

Scott Ross (41:22):

Yeah.

Kevin Goetz (41:23):

Wow.

Scott Ross (41:23):

Yeah.

Kevin Goetz (41:24):

How does AI help do that?

*Scott Ross (41:26):

So, the way AI works generally is it goes through all of the possible internet capabilities and reaches out and pulls in data and information. Have you seen Here? Oh yeah. So if you give this AI, and it was a company called Metaphysic AI that did it. If you give them photographs of every shot that Tom Hanks had ever had of every age that he's ever been.

Kevin Goetz (41:56):

Oh my lord.

Scott Ross (41:56):

And then you ask the AI to, okay, now make him 22 or 18. It has the ability to do that.

Kevin Goetz (42:05):

Incredible. Moving on to Titanic.

Scott Ross (42:09):

Hey <inaudible>.

Kevin Goetz (42:10):

Um, me? Yeah.

Scott Ross (42:12):

Really?

Kevin Goetz (42:13):

I worked on that in the day.

*Scott Ross (42:14):

Yeah, me too. Titanic. Probably the pinnacle of my career. The most famous movie I ever worked on. I always feel like I have imposter syndrome, so like when I'll travel around the world and I'll give lectures, particularly in Asia, Japan, Korea, and China, when they realize that my company worked on Titanic, I'm a superstar and I always feel badly because I actually didn't do the work as we talked about before.

Kevin Goetz (42:43):

Well I just said I worked on it, I tested it.

Scott Ross (42:45):

You actually tested it.

Kevin Goetz (42:47):

Right? I tested it. When I say I worked on a movie, that's the extent.

Scott Ross (42:49):

Well that's your work

Kevin Goetz (42:50):

On a movie. 

Scott Ross (42:51):

Yeah, wxactly. Yeah. That's your work. So did I actually operate the machinery? Did I actually, you know, sit in the screening room and say, no, fix that. No, I didn't do any of that. I was the person caught in the middle between Jim Cameron and 20th Century Fox to answer to.

Kevin Goetz (43:08):

 John Landau.

Scott Ross (43:09):

Oh.

Kevin Goetz (43:09):

May he rest in peace.

Scott Ross (43:10):

May he rest, who by the way, I knew since he was nine years old.

Kevin Goetz (43:14):

Wow.

Scott Ross (43:15):

Because John Landau's brother Les and I were good friends at Hofstra University. I knew John 35 years.

Kevin Goetz (43:20):

Yeah. Something like that. His death was so tragic.

Scott Ross (43:23):

Tragic.

Kevin Goetz (43:25):

And I haven't seen Julie around in

Scott Ross (43:26):

While I haven't spoken to her reach out. I tried to reach out to Les. I haven't heard back, but I did reach out to John as he was on his dying bed and we did have a text conversation and an email conversation. Yeah.

Kevin Goetz (43:38):

So it’s the gift that keeps on giving.

Scott Ross (43:41):

It is the gift that keeps on giving. It is like the, one of the most, I think, in my opinion, and maybe because I was too close to it, is that it's the most iconic movie that Jim Cameron has ever made, including the Avatar series. It touched the heart. I met people that have seen that movie over 30 times, which is just unbelievable.

Kevin Goetz (44:02):

Yeah. I want to mention a movie that I worked on, tested that I thought narratively was very slow and plotting and, but it was one of the most interesting visual feasts I'd ever seen on film. And that is what Dreams May Come. 

Scott Ross (44:18):

Dreams May Come. Yeah. So what dreams may come was interesting for us. I knew we were gonna win the Academy Award on that. How could you not? I knew we were, and I kept telling my staff, we are gonna win. And we were like, I don't think so. I forget who we were against at the time. But Vincent Ward is the director of the film. And Vincent Ward is nothing but an incredibly great visualist. Not a great storyteller, not a great script writer, but an incredible visualist. And that film just tears you apart.

Kevin Goetz (44:54):

Insane.

Scott Ross (44:55):

Yeah.

Kevin Goetz (44:56):

Terminator 2.

Scott Ross (44:58):

Similar kind of thing. Terminator 2, you know, working with Cameron again and pushing the envelope and you know, Steve Williams and known as Spaz and Mark. 

Kevin Goetz (45:11):

How did they do that? Metallic. It's a computer-generated person going through the bars. 

Scott Ross (45:12):

Yeah, yeah. It's magic. I'd have to kill you if I told you.

Kevin Goetz (45:14):

Oh my Lord. I mean, it was so cutting edge and it still looks great.

Scott Ross (45:19):

I knew that Terminator 2 was gonna be the hit that it was. We went to a test screening and when the visual effects played, the oxygen level in the audience went down, 'cause everybody went. Same thing with Jurassic Park. By the way, that was the same feeling.

Kevin Goetz (45:35):

You didn't work on Jurassic, did you?

Scott Ross (45:36):

Well, I was running ILM through all of Jurassic Park until Jurassic Park was to be released. And then I left and started Digital Domain.

Kevin Goetz (45:45):

I must confess, I voted for a movie this year that did not win. And that is Planet of the Apes.

Scott Ross (45:50):

Yeah.

Kevin Goetz (45:51):

I mean this is how you know you have a great film in the test screening process. You have Andy Serkis next to the dotted, what do they call those? Green dots?

Scott Ross (46:02):

Motion face capture.

Kevin Goetz (46:04):

Motion face capture mask. They're actually standing next to each other.

Scott Ross (46:08):

And he's doing this and it's doing that.

Kevin Goetz (46:09):

Exactly. And you contorting his face is what Scott was just doing. <laugh>. And you're like, where do I look? But you look at Andy Serkis.

Scott Ross (46:18):

Yeah.

Kevin Goetz (46:19):

And you see the emotion and the scores initially were so strong. Mm-hmm <affirmative>. With all of that pre-vis effects work. Mm-hmm <affirmative>. It was extraordinary. So you say that's how good the narrative is, the story, the visual effects are always there in service of the narrative.

*Scott Ross (46:36):

The statement should be, if I could correct you, visual effects should always be there to support the narrative. It should always be there, but sometimes it's not.

Kevin Goetz (46:46):

That's exactly what I meant, and so glad that you just said that.

Scott Ross (46:50):

Yeah. Sometimes it's not.

Kevin Goetz (46:51):

So glad you said that because I always talk about the art of filmmaking takes many extremely talented people for the making of a movie. It's not one person. Yes, it's a director's vision or a producer's vision, but it is not the end-all be-all. You cannot not have great craftspeople in art direction, production design, visual effects, editing, blah blah, blah.

Scott Ross (47:16):

It's the most collaborative art form ever.

Kevin Goetz (47:19):

Which is maybe why we love it.

*Scott Ross (47:21):

Yeah. And if you're a director and you understand that collaboration, and you're willing to give and you're willing to take, and you're willing to inspire, you wind up getting great work.

Kevin Goetz (47:33):

Because of the advent of AI. It's kind of a trite question in a way, but I really do want to ask this as sort of my last question, which is the young person coming into the world today with the advent of AI and knowing jobs are gonna be lessened, what would you say to?

Scott Ross (47:50):

My grandson who wants to be in visual effects?

Kevin Goetz (47:53):

Does he wanna be in visual effects?

Scott Ross (47:53):

He's too little, but I think that's the question.

Kevin Goetz (47:56):

Grandpa, should I go into visual effects?

Scott Ross (47:59):

Let me tell you little Kev, are you good at baseball?

Kevin Goetz (48:05):

<laugh> Listen, Scott Ross, thank you so much. Your new book, Upstart: The Digital Film Revolution, is out now. If you're interested in this subject, I urge you to read it. It's a terrific read and I thank you for not only everything you've done, but for paving the way for so many of the great films that we know and love and for making them memorable in their visual style.

Scott Ross (48:28):

Thank you for having me, Kevin. I really appreciate it. This has been fun.

Kevin Goetz (48:33):

To our listeners, I hope you enjoyed our interview today. I encourage you to read Scott's book, Upstart available on Amazon. For more filmmaking and audience testing stories, I invite you to check out my book, Audienceology, at Amazon or through my website at KevinGoetz360.com. You can also follow me on my social media. Next time on Don't Kill the Messenger, I'll welcome one of the pioneers of the total talent agency concept, veteran agent and producer, Arnold Rifkin. Until then, I'm Kevin Goetz, and to you, our listeners, I appreciate you being part of the movie-making process. Your opinions matter.

Host: Kevin Goetz
Guest: Scott Ross
Producer: Kari Campano
Writers: Kevin Goetz, Darlene Hayman, and Kari Campano
Audio Engineer: Gary Forbes (DG Entertainment)