Podcast: Don't Kill the Messenger with Movie Research Expert Kevin Goetz
Guest: Producer, Agent, Studio Executive, Arnold Rifkin

Interview Transcript:

Announcer (00:04):

From script to screen, every film is brought to life by visionary creatives and executives, all sharing one mission – to captivate the audience. Hosted by award-winning movie strategist, Kevin Goetz, our podcast, Don't Kill The Messenger, offers a filmmaking masterclass through intimate conversations with Hollywood's most influential voices. And now, your host, Kevin Goetz.

Kevin Goetz (00:29):

Let's get something straight, in Hollywood agents book the flight, managers map the journey. But to truly understand the legacy of my guest today, don't think travel, think architect, because he's done both and often at the same time. Arnold Rifkin pioneered the concept of a total talent agency, guiding everything from script to screen, including casting, development, and even the final cut. Along the way, he also helped build one of the most recognizable brands in action cinema. From founding Triad Artists and leading the film division at William Morris to producing blockbuster films as the longtime producing partner and former manager of Bruce Willis, Arnold has shaped Hollywood from every angle. I am thrilled to have you here today, Arnold. Thank you so much for joining me.

Arnold Rifkin (01:23):

I appreciate it. I'm a little humbled by all that.

Kevin Goetz (01:25):

Well, it's all true, man.

Arnold Rifkin (01:25):

It is what it is. Yeah, yeah. I'm sitting here and that's the truth.

Kevin Goetz (01:28):

So what do I get When I read that and having known you and met you through a mutual and dear friend Tom Sherak, who we both had a reverence for. Boy, that was something, huh?

Arnold Rifkin (01:40):

He was probably one of the most important men in my life and remains that way. And I get emotional. You get emotional when you think of it.

Kevin Goetz (01:47):

Absolutely. You and I were actually rekindled at one of Tom's Passover Seders.

Arnold Rifkin (01:53):

We didn't do any business at that point, but I knew who you were and I knew that when we went to the test screenings, you were running it. Of course.

Kevin Goetz (01:58):

What was it about Tom that touched you so deeply?

*Arnold Rifkin (02:01):

We met early on, and sometimes there's an electricity. It's not about anything other than, I wanna know you and I know you can help me and I can help you. And I became his agent very early on. And our deal was, I never charged him, nor would I. There was no commission, but he taught me the distribution business. And my question for him was, I know how to get there to give you the content, but then what happens when I don't have any power anymore? And he goes to you. I need to know what happens. And we had a relationship for so many years where Friday night was the vigil, Saturday morning was my first exam, and then Sunday I had to tell him what's gonna happen based on Friday night?

Kevin Goetz (02:45):

Yeah, the multiple.

Arnold Rifkin (02:46):

Yeah. And we did this for 10 years, and I had the privilege and the honor of when Joe finally wanted to create Revolution. I did Tom Steele, I did a deal with Tom Rothman. I did a deal with Strauss Selnick back at Fox.

Kevin Goetz (03:01):

Wow. Let's start with what I see as kind of, I always use this term, the leitmotif of Arnold Rifkin, which to me is believing, and selling, but not selling. Like your father was in the schmatta business.

Arnold Rifkin (03:21):

He was.

Kevin Goetz (03:22):

And you followed in his path and then sold shoes in Los Angeles. What is it about selling that touched you so deeply as a youngster? Was it your dad's influence?

Arnold Rifkin (03:49):

Probably. He was in the mink business. He was in mink? Mink. And he put Sears Roebuck in the mink business with a stole

Kevin Goetz (03:56):

Sears sold minks?

Arnold Rifkin (03:58):

Yes, absolutely. So here's what I learned from him. And I used to travel with him. I would've never known this, but it was literally how I did the Die Hard original deal. My father would go to the door and say, listen, here's what I'm willing to pay, and if you don't want that, I'm okay. And he would put his hand on the doorknob ready to leave and the guy would say, well, okay, <laugh>.

Kevin Goetz (04:21):

Wait a minute, didn't our fathers both teach us how to do that with cars. You literally go into the parking lot and they come after you with anything.

Arnold Rifkin (04:27):

So I had a little DNA, you know, my dad was an immigrant. He never went past the sixth grade.

Kevin Goetz (04:32):

From Poland?

Arnold Rifkin (04:32):

No, he was from the Ukraine, from Russia. And he came over and he was 12 or 13. And actually when I became president of William Morris, we celebrated the hundredth anniversary and we went to Ellis Island as part of it. I found my dad's name. So he kinda lives on.

Kevin Goetz (04:48):

What was his name?

*Arnold Rifkin (04:49):

His name was Herman, but we called him Hy, HY. And so I learned from him and, and he didn't know it because I didn't ask questions. I just watched. I learned by watching. I learned by listening. I didn't talk much.

Kevin Goetz (05:04):

Your brother is of course renowned actor, Ron Rifkin.

Arnold Rifkin (05:08):

Yes.

Kevin Goetz (05:08):

How did he get into the business?

Arnold Rifkin (05:10):

We were raised Orthodox, and my brother went to Yeshiva and he graduated like at 16 and or 17, and he went to NYU and he was pre-med. And in his second year, the green room came in his life somehow. And that was it, acting. And of course,

Kevin Goetz (05:26):

Where did he get the bug though?

Arnold Rifkin (05:26):

He was always center in our family. He loved to entertain.

Kevin Goetz (05:30):

It's just the two boys?

Arnold Rifkin (05:31):

No, I have a sister as well in the middle. I'm the baby. I'm the boomer.

Kevin Goetz (05:35):

Now, you were also a model.

Arnold Rifkin (05:37):

Yes.

Kevin Goetz (05:37):

Print or runway?

Arnold Rifkin (05:39):

All of it. And then I did Chef Boy Ardee, did a bunch of commercials where I danced and I was on camera the whole time and I made a lot of money and I put a lot of it towards my college, and it felt good.

Kevin Goetz (05:49):

In Cincinnati.

Arnold Rifkin (05:50):

Yeah. I had a lot of pride in being able to put down something towards my education.

Kevin Goetz (05:54):

Your parents though, your dad sold minks, so you would think that you were pretty well off.

Arnold Rifkin (05:59):

Don't look at the book or see what's inside. Yeah, yeah. We were Forest Hills for years, and when my dad started to do well, we moved to Long Island to Great Neck, but we didn't go to Kings Point. We went to Lake Success, and I'll tell you who moved in shortly after was Dawn Steele.

Kevin Goetz (06:17):

Oh my god. Chuck Roven is coming on.

Arnold Rifkin (06:19):

Oh, really? Well, you know what, Chuck knows the story. Dawn called me and we got our 25th anniversary for our high school, and she called and she said, I'm not going. I said, I'll tell you what, I'll go with you.

Kevin Goetz (06:30):

Wow.

Arnold Rifkin (06:31):

Now, she was the queen at this point. She had elevated into a very high position at the studios, and yet we were in the limousine heading towards the celebration, and we're sitting in limousine. She's holding my hand and she's on the phone with Chuck <laugh>, and she was terrified when those doors opened and everybody saw who she was, you know? Oh yeah.

Kevin Goetz (06:50):

Oh yeah.

Arnold Rifkin (06:51):

I didn't see her again until we had to go back on the flight.

Kevin Goetz (06:53):

She was powerful, yeah.

Arnold Rifkin (06:55):

She was a force.

Kevin Goetz (06:56):

So how did you get into the business from selling shoes? Where did you meet Nicole David to start Rifkin David?

*Arnold Rifkin (07:03):

On an escalator. My brother's closest friend was Nicole, and they had a relationship for years. That was it. And I had already now left the shoe business and I decided that I was going to become an agent. Why? I love the art of figuring out and selling.

Kevin Goetz (07:19):

I knew that. See, that's your leitmotif. That's the thing underneath it all. Then you start looking at your whole life. Right?

Arnold Rifkin (07:26):

When my career started to escalate, I started to think, how can I make a difference? And you know, the Promenade right down, down on Third Street, and one of my daughters said to me, dad, there's a young girl singing down at the Promenade, and there's two babies involved, and they're in the carriage, and the dad is there and she's singing, she's great. I go down there and to cut to the chase. I finally got the father to agree to let me meet his daughter. They took a bus to get to Triad, and we got her a commercial. So that was rewarding. That is the thing inside me that says, you know what? Good job Rifkin.

Kevin Goetz (08:07):

So you start an agency with a woman that ended up really well. I mean, a lot of these early relationships don't end well. Young people get in business relationship not knowing it's like a marriage and some don't end so well.

Arnold Rifkin (08:21):

We had $1,500 between us, 1975.

Kevin Goetz (08:25):

So it was really just, besharat.

Arnold Rifkin (08:28):

Meant to be for sure. She was also Thelma, the voice of Thelma in Scooby-Doo. And she was a member of the Actor studio, which is how they met my brother. Yeah.

Kevin Goetz (08:37):

So, Nicole started as an actress. Yeah, she's coming on the show. We're gonna get her on here. Oh, you're gonna get her on?

Arnold Rifkin (08:41):

Oh, you have to. We have to. I'm happy to bring her. Anyway, Nicole was becoming a better agent than an actress. Every time she didn't get a job, she gave them an idea of who might be right and all of a sudden they'd be hiring people that she'd recommend. So she became an agent.

Kevin Goetz (08:56):

You know, Rick and Paula, Rick Nicita and Paula Wagner were guests on this podcast. And Paula also started, you know, she was on Broadway. She started as an actress. I have a feeling she was pretty damn good. But she loved when she worked with Susan Smith and before she got to CAA, she was very, very good at it. And I guess Nicole followed the same kind of trajectory.

Arnold Rifkin (09:16):

Clearly, but she didn't know math. That was a problem as an agent, stay away from the numbers, or you just find the talent.

Kevin Goetz (09:22):

That's why you worked so well together.

Arnold Rifkin (09:24):

Absolutely.

Kevin Goetz (09:24):

Okay. So you then wanted to expand, I guess, to form Triad. You partnered with a company that was specializing in musical acts, correct?

*Arnold Rifkin (09:34):

Regency Artists. Yeah. I had a reciprocity with Richard Rosenberg, and along the way we had made a union with Kimble Parseghian, Gene Parseghian, John Kimblel. They were a New York-based agency, small, but really had good talent. And then we acquired Jeff Hunter's company. And that's when I felt there was a, an ability to take what we've done now and mix it. So now you got music and talent, and we had William Hurt, we had Daniel Day-Lewis, we had Gene's clients. Then I went to Richard and said, listen, with all of that we're doing, I don't wanna be this small and have talent taken. We had very little attrition once we were Triad, but getting to Triad, we started Michael Keaton, we started Steve Guttenberg there, a lot of people we started, but they would come after them and whatever. So I said…

Kevin Goetz (10:24):

Who’s they?

Arnold Rifkin (10:25):

The big three.

Kevin Goetz (10:26):

And uh, who were they at the time?

Arnold Rifkin (10:27):

Well, it was William Morris. It was ICM and CAA. So I said to Richard, the one thing we're missing is literary, the directors and, and the writers. So we took two years and I went after Adams Ray Rosenberg. Sam was absolutely against it. He said, I'm not gonna have people running through my office. But we've managed after two years to merge all three of us to create Triad. Thus, the three, the Triad kind of made sense. Regency Artists, our talent agency and the literary agency.

Kevin Goetz (10:59):

It's fair to say that you certainly crafted packaging.

Arnold Rifkin (11:03):

We created the ability for Adams Ray Rosenberg to have the elements that were needed. Sure. To justify packaging. And the music Richard was doing really well. And it was a cash business. So it was, um, it aided us in the journey to become what we became. We had about 500 people and variety, kind of, you had 500 people. Wow. Yeah.

Kevin Goetz (11:25):

Where were the offices?

Arnold Rifkin (11:26):

Ten one hundred Santa Monica Boulevard.

Kevin Goetz (11:27):

Wow.

Arnold Rifkin (11:28):

All here.

Kevin Goetz (11:28):

Yeah.

Arnold Rifkin (11:29):

And we had a thousand probably by the time we were done

Kevin Goetz (11:32):

Did Jeff Hunter stay and Gene Stay?

Arnold Rifkin (11:35):

Absolutely. Everybody came.

Kevin Goetz (11:36):

Who was the head of it?

Arnold Rifkin (11:38):

It was Lee Rosenberg, myself, Richard, and Peter Grosslight, who was Richard's partner.

Kevin Goetz (11:45):

You ran day to day and all of that.

Arnold Rifkin (11:47):

Yeah. I mean, certainly the talent for sure.

Kevin Goetz (11:49):

Now, did you sign Bruce Willis early on?

*Arnold Rifkin (11:52):

I, I have to give credit to the people that found Bruce. Gene Parseghian back in New York. Had seen him in True West, uh, Cis Corman. Cis cast him? She told Gene to go to the theater and see him. And then there was a show they were casting called Moonlighting. And Jenny Delaney, who was our first assistant back in 75, she became an agent. And Jenny started making the deal for Moonlighting. And I got a phone call, I gotta meet this guy. And that's how it happened. It was because of them.

Kevin Goetz (12:27):

You were wooed right away? Was he that charming?

Arnold Rifkin (12:30):

When he came into my office, he had a torn t-shirt, ripped jeans, and he pretended he was worth a billion dollars.

Kevin Goetz (12:37):

Wow.

Arnold Rifkin (12:37):

He never doubted the fact. And he gave me the smirk. I knew the light in his eyes, and we became agent, and, and it was a journey. They already turned him down once, I don't know if you know the journey of how they got cast?

Kevin Goetz (12:52):

No. You mean for Moonlighting?

Arnold Rifkin (12:52):

Yeah. And he

Kevin Goetz (12:54):

Had already auditioned for it.

Arnold Rifkin (12:55):

Yeah. Twice. And, and he didn't have the money to fly here. Great story. He, he, he borrowed the money from Sherry Rivera, har Geraldo Rivera's ex. He was dating Sherry. That's so random. And she gave him the money to go fly out, and that's how it got to LA.

Kevin Goetz (13:13):

But how did he get another opportunity to go back?

Arnold Rifkin (13:16):

They brought him back. Glen wanted him and everybody else at ABC just was not ready. And they would line up because.

Kevin Goetz (13:24):

He was not typical leading man.

Arnold Rifkin (13:26):

Not at all.

Kevin Goetz (13:27):

He had that brilliant quality of being self effacing. Right. And he was sexy.

Arnold Rifkin (13:35):

Yes. He had a swag.

Kevin Goetz (13:36):

He had a swagger.

Arnold Rifkin (13:37):

But he was a bartender with humor and he had a speech impediment. And that's how he used his humor. And ironically, we had the same impediment by the way. We had a hesitation. I could finish his sentences and I'd always answer the phone and go, yeah 'cause I couldn't get hello out. My parents put me in class where there was 19 different impediments, and I acquired all of them. I would imitate all of 'em until I had to figure out, I gotta drop this.

Kevin Goetz (14:03):

Who was your first significant signing?

Arnold Rifkin (14:05):

Michael Ontkean and Amy Irving.

Kevin Goetz (14:07):

Wow. And Amy Irving's father, of course, was a big stage actor.

Arnold Rifkin (14:11):

Yes. Jules Irving.

Kevin Goetz (14:12):

Yes.

Arnold Rifkin (14:13):

Yeah. And Priscilla Pointer became our client as a result. So we had mother and daughter.

Kevin Goetz (14:17):

And Is that before she married Steven Spielberg?

Arnold Rifkin (14:20):

Oh, yeah. Way before.

Kevin Goetz (14:21):

Wow. Yeah. She's a terrific actress.

Arnold Rifkin (14:25):

Yeah. And stage actress. And, and then she matriculated into LA and then Yentel, Barbara Streisand.

Kevin Goetz (14:31):

Papa can you hear me? That's the story. <laugh>. Absolutely. I wanna talk about William Morris buying Triad. That had to be…

Arnold Rifkin (14:39):

Thank you for not saying merging. Everybody thinks we've merged, but we were bought.

Kevin Goetz (14:43):

Uhhuh and that was probably a really, really big decision. Maybe the biggest of your life. Did you want to be acquired?

Arnold Rifkin (14:51):

Yes. I couldn't get a job at William Morris. Yes. I wanted to be acquired. I had the little joy inside here. Right here.

Kevin Goetz (14:57):

Sure.

Arnold Rifkin (14:58):

Yeah.

Kevin Goetz (14:59):

Oh, so when you went out and saw Ron Meyer at CAA and didn't get a job there, and then you didn't get a job at William Morris.

Arnold Rifkin (15:05):

And six months later he's CAA and I formed my own with Nicole.

Kevin Goetz (15:08):

And then people are taking you seriously in a whole different way, and it's great. And so what was it like when you got bought by such a formidable legacy agency?

*Arnold Rifkin (15:20):

Tell you what, the answer to what you're asking me is my first day at William Morris, I had a meet with all of them. And I'm in the screening room, and I'm supposed to give a speech about how wonderful this is. And I'll never forget that, because it was really, everybody was so dubious. I had this reputation to be yell and whatever.

Kevin Goetz (15:42):

You did?

Arnold Rifkin (15:42):

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. He's, he's a tiger. He yells, he's, you know, whatever. And I knew I was walking into that and everybody had trepidation about what was I gonna do, kind of thing. There were all the talent agents, and all the heads that negotiated, Walt Zifkin was kind of the guy. I just think they were nervous because they were going through trauma.

Kevin Goetz (16:05):

Because of 500 new folks coming in.

Arnold Rifkin (16:06):

Yeah. But they also lost a lot of clients. So it took two years to do the deal. We had two rounds.

Kevin Goetz (16:13):

The first round. William didn't work. Right. William Morris, people don't remember that. William Morris was on the downturn.

Arnold Rifkin (16:16):

They were bleeding. And we had a hefty talent list at the time. And Bruce was certainly a major star at this point. And they needed us. And frankly, we needed them. With all due respect. The business is what it is. And it's all about, at that time, the packaging was a significant piece of business, and they had a huge TV division, and, but they were losing the talent that drove everything else.

Kevin Goetz (16:41):

They were, they were going to CAA.

Arnold Rifkin (16:42):

Wherever they were going. Yeah. But a lot of them went that way. And they were considered tired. And all of a sudden, this rookie comes in with some energy, you know, I was excited. I was ready to get in there.

Kevin Goetz (16:57):

Totally.

*Arnold Rifkin (16:57):

Yeah. And I had a wonderful time. And they ultimately succumbed to both my vision, I wanna say I had a little charm, but I also delivered. And you know, what I shared with them, probably the most important thing, it's your destiny. You can make the decision. Do not bring me problems. Bring me solutions. When we do solutions, we solve.

Kevin Goetz (17:20):

Well, I'm gonna steal that.

Arnold Rifkin (17:21):

Yeah. You bring me a problem. I don't need you. I can make problems on my own.

Kevin Goetz (17:27):

I'm also a genius in identifying the problems. You know what I mean? Like Yeah. I don't need another person to know what already exists. It's a great way to look at life. Absolutely. Before we take a break, I wanted to ask you about two significant deals. One is, Look Who's Talking and one is Die Hard. I'd love to hear about both of those deals, if you wouldn't mind, 'cause those actually happened before William Morris in Triad.

Arnold Rifkin (17:52):

Years. Yeah. No, no, we had already done Die Hard. So Bruce had a persona by then. So look who's talking, John Travolta and Kirstie Alley, about 11 o'clock at night, I get a phone call from David Matalon. He's heading to the airport to go to Israel. And they've been testing Look Who's Talking. It's not working.

Kevin Goetz (18:12):

Yeah. I was involved in that testing.

Arnold Rifkin (18:13):

In 89. So he's saying, we're gonna release it in a hundred screens in Florida, and it's not working. I wanna make a deal with you. I want Bruce to do the voiceover. And I said, how am I gonna do a voiceover deal? How, what is that one night, two nights maybe. Anyway, I rode to the airport with him on the phone the whole way.

Kevin Goetz (18:37):

Sure.

Arnold Rifkin (18:38):

And we cut one of the best deals ever for Bruce. Everybody made out, Bruce made a lot of money, and

Kevin Goetz (18:44):

Oh, they had a successful film. That's so great. And it saved the movie.

Arnold Rifkin (18:47):

Yes. And to the two leads.

Kevin Goetz (18:50):

And it was David's idea.

Arnold Rifkin (18:51):

Yeah. But to the two leads, we represented John. I don't think he's ever known this story and it's time maybe he learned. Anyway, that was a great moment in my life with David. And it bonded both of us. I went on with Blake Edwards and, and, and Tristar and Sagansky and David, had a great run. So, but that's a story that nobody knows.

Kevin Goetz (19:12):

So that was before New Regency? Or, or was David at, you said at?

Arnold Rifkin (19:16):

No, David was at Tristar.

Kevin Goetz (19:18):

Yeah. That's where I first met him. That's right. Wow. Wow, wow. Tell me about the Die Hard deal. How did you make that deal?

*Arnold Rifkin (19:26):

With arrogance. Hubris. Because the first round they went to every famous actor. Nobody wanted to do it. Die Hard was a battery at Sears, that's what that was. And we had come off of a movie that, I won't tell you the title, and nobody went. And the worldwide gross was $3 million.

Kevin Goetz (19:49):

Oh yeah.

Arnold Rifkin (19:50):

And nobody saw the movie. And Bruce was panicked because we had had Blind Date. It opened up to seven and a half million dollars back then. Bruce was really worried, and so was I, because Die Hard comes along.

Kevin Goetz (20:02):

He had to succeed. He had to succeed.

Arnold Rifkin (20:04):

So they went to every significant actor, and they all passed. I knew Larry Gordon and I didn't have any real relationship, but it was all through Tom Sherak. This was all Fox. So I already had that relationship, and I know that they went through everybody. And to Larry Gordon's credit, Larry had this spark about Bruce. And after they went through everybody, that's when they came to us. I had already called and said, listen.

Kevin Goetz (20:32):

You know how many stories of Hollywood have that kind of narrative?

Arnold Rifkin (20:35):

When Joe Roth was doing Home Alone, when he acquired that from Warners, they'll never give you another movie again. Yes. I do know the stories.

Kevin Goetz (20:43):

Sharon Stone with Basic Instinct.

Arnold Rifkin (20:45):

Yeah. So anyway, I say, listen, let's meet with Bruce. And he was the guy.

Kevin Goetz (20:52):

He was so considered, I don't wanna say a lightweight, but he was, he was a comedic actor.

Arnold Rifkin (20:57):

I mean, Moonlighting was a comedy of some sort with a little bit of sexuality mixed in there, you know? Exactly. There was always a thing with him and Sybil.

Kevin Goetz (21:06):

So why would Larry give him that break?

Arnold Rifkin (21:08):

Because they were fucked. They couldn't cast the movie. And I knew that.

Kevin Goetz (21:12):

And he was very popular. Yeah. So Fox approved him.

*Arnold Rifkin (21:15):

I don't know that, that Barry Diller was excited about this. I don't know if Leonard Goldberg was excited about this, but you know what? They wanted to make the movie. And John McTiernan loved Bruce. He got it. He got the swag, he got the smirk. So the deal was a difficult deal. I'm not going to share some of the individuals that were involved, because it was a little bit acrimonious. They beat him up because I had a number. And I said upfront, there's only two things that could possibly happen here. We either succeed or we fail. So you have to pay him enough money to justify either. Either you become a hero, or no one could deny the fact that how could you turn that down. And the number was what it became, what was it? Five.

Kevin Goetz (22:05):

Wow.

Arnold Rifkin (22:06):

And now, at this point, Michael Douglas, Mel Gibson, they were getting two and a half for sequels. You raised it. But Bruce had the balls to let me do the Moonlighting.

Kevin Goetz (22:17):

He would've walked?

Arnold Rifkin (22:18):

Oh, I did walk. God bless Leon, who was running Fox Business Affairs, and who did the deal. Leon rest in peace. He was great. But he knew that I had a number and I wasn't gonna move from the number. And the doorknob was the key. I had no issue with it, because you know what, it wasn't his money until the deal was set. So he didn't lose anything.

Kevin Goetz (22:38):

Was it first dollar gross deal?

Arnold Rifkin (22:40):

He wasn't a first gross player. But this was all about justifying why we did it. And if it worked, nobody cared about the price. Of course, if it didn't work, he was the highest paid actor for 15 minutes in the world. And that was the justification that I felt would at least mitigate, depending upon what the outcome was.

Kevin Goetz (23:01):

It's also a really good press, if you think about it.

*Arnold Rifkin (23:03):

Press, I was banned from Warner Brothers. Everybody's salaries went sky high. Mel Gibson wanted 5 million. Michael Douglas said, how could you pay me two and a half and he's a nobody, and you pay him five. I got hammered. Every studio said, Rifkin, what did you do? A $5 million deal to somebody who just did one movie that failed and did $3.2 million?

Kevin Goetz (23:28):

I wanted to just talk about something you had mentioned a story about Edgar Bronfman and Bruce with wine coolers. Can you, can you just just tell that story really fast? Yeah, yeah. It's kind of fun, right?

Arnold Rifkin (23:40):

RCertainly a departure from television and movies. Edgar had started, um, the Bronfman family as infamous for the liquor and, and the world of…

Kevin Goetz (23:50):

Seagrams.

Arnold Rifkin (23:50):

Seagrams. Right. And so I get this phone call and Edgar reaches out. He's got the wine cooler that is launching, and there is a significant amount of competition. And being number five and being the Bronfman family, just didn’t settle. And I say that not in a pejorative way, but it's true. They're, they're, they're Seagrams. So Edgar makes a proposal and he's telling me what he wants. He wants the swag that Bruce has. Back in the day, there was the Marlboro guy, and now Bruce was the guy, kind of like, everybody kind of felt that charm, that, that, you know, it was there. Die Hard comes to the coast. He made up lines that just nobody else could sell. And so I gave Edgar a price, and he said, that's way too much money. And I said, I don't know how to fix it. If you're not willing to pay, you wanna be one. And he said, okay, we're done. A year later, Edgar calls.

Kevin Goetz (24:52):

So you passed.

Arnold Rifkin (24:53):

I did. We walked.

Kevin Goetz (24:54):

You were willing to walk.

Arnold Rifkin (24:55):

Absolutely. There was no way to put him on screen doing that unless we could again, justify. And Edgar comes back a year later and said, you know, I've seen 3000 men and I can't find the guy that I want. So I'm back. He said, so I'm willing to pay you. I said, Edgar, it's a year later.

Kevin Goetz (25:17):

Oh no, you did not.

Arnold Rifkin (25:18):

The inflation and all. Whatever you didn't. That's seriously. Absolutely.

Kevin Goetz (25:23):

Oh, I wish you represented me, man. <laugh>.

Arnold Rifkin (25:25):

And he paid.

Kevin Goetz (25:26):

Oh god.

*Arnold Rifkin (25:27):

He paid, the numbers are irrelevant. He paid a lot of money to get Bruce. And you know what? Within six months, he was number one.

Kevin Goetz (25:34):

Great story.

Arnold Rifkin (25:36):

So the means justified the ends.

Kevin Goetz (25:39):

When we come back, we are gonna talk about Bruce Willis and the partnership that was so formidable. We'll be back in a moment. Listeners, The Motion Picture Television Fund is a nonprofit charitable organization that supports working and retired members of the entertainment community. This wonderfully run organization offers assistance for living and aging with dignity and purpose in the areas of health and social services, including temporary financial assistance, case management, and residential living. And it has been a crucial lifeline to thousands during and beyond critical times that our industry continues to experience. To learn more, visit mptf.com. Please join me in helping others in our industry during times of need. There are so many ways to offer support and get involved. Thank you. We are back with Arnold Rifkin. Arnold, what made you leave your very successful job at the agency to form a partnership with Bruce Willis?

Arnold Rifkin (26:57):

When you know you're no longer having what it is you were seeking, and it was 10 years. I mean, I've been an agent now then for 30 some odd 35 years, starting with Nicole at $1,500. And I was done.

Kevin Goetz (27:13):

You weren't enjoying going into work anymore?

*Arnold Rifkin (27:16):

No, it was just, I didn't know what else I could do. I had done some significant deals. I have represented some really wonderful people that I was part of. And Whoopi, she embarrassed me all the time, made fun of me because I just had a proprietary. And I remember we went to the Academy Awards and I was with her, and she was the host. She changed in front of me. I, I don't Whoopi don't do this. You know what I mean? She just made me blush. So I had fun with a lot of them, you know, and Danny Glover. And I learned from my clients because I was in their lives. And that was important. But I no longer was doing that. I had been elevated in a world where people were a little…

Kevin Goetz (27:57):

Ah, makes sense.

Arnold Rifkin (27:58):

You know, and I said, maybe it's time to do something different. I had a great run. We did weekends, and I had fantastic moments with these people when we brought people from England, from New York and from LA and they finally meet each other, these agents, and I love doing them. And we didn't bring guests. This was all about us. And I loved bonding people. So we had a map, we had a chain, and everybody got a piece of that chain and knew that if you broke the chain, you're gonna break what we have.

Kevin Goetz (28:31):

Yeah.

Arnold Rifkin (28:32):

And so it was just a moment in time.

Kevin Goetz (28:35):

Did you call Bruce, or did Bruce call you to say, I have an idea?

*Arnold Rifkin (28:38):

I told Bruce that I was leaving, and Bruce said, well, what are you gonna do? And I said, well, I'm not totally sure, but I wanna see what the other side's like, I want to know the people who make the decisions on that side. I wanna see what that's like. And he said, let's do it together. I said, cool.

Kevin Goetz (28:56):

Wow. Was that fast?

Arnold Rifkin (28:57):

That was it. Yeah. And I, the only thing that I needed, I wanted only one lawyer. I didn't want two lawyers involved.

Kevin Goetz (29:04):

You mean handling both sides?

Arnold Rifkin (29:06):

Yeah. I wanted one lawyer for both of us. Skip Brittenham.

Kevin Goetz (29:09):

Oh, the best, the goat.

Arnold Rifkin (29:12):

Well, when you're gonna go, you go. Right.

Kevin Goetz (29:14):

Well, the Goat.

Arnold Rifkin (29:15):

Yeah.

Kevin Goetz (29:15):

You named your company Cheyenne. Yes. Based on what?

*Arnold Rifkin (29:18):

In that period of time. So now we're talking 2000. When I left, I had the privilege of working with a spiritual guide in the Native American world. And I started to sweat lodge and I'd sweat twice a month. And I had a really true personal experience with that. And I did that for 15 years with a Shaman. Yeah. And I was fortunate. I bought a home in Jackson Hole, Wyoming. And I did a lot of reading on all the different tribal. The reason I picked Cheyenne was their symbol was a dragonfly. And a dragonfly has double wings, and it's not a violent animal, but when it's in danger, once you start with the wings, they disappear because they create smoke and whatever. I wanted to disappear. I didn't want to have all that, people looking at me. I wanted to do something that I was enjoying.

Kevin Goetz (30:11):

Were you always a spiritual person by nature? Or searching for something deeper now in this next chapter of life?

Arnold Rifkin (30:21):

Being raised Orthodox. And I sustained that right through college. I did have that Yiddish kite in me, and it was ingrained in me. That's how that happened.

Kevin Goetz (30:30):

I'm interested to explore that for a second before we move on.

Arnold Rifkin (30:33):

Sure.

Kevin Goetz (30:33):

Which is, your transformation from a very blustery, strong personality known for his temper as you self-described. And now you are trying to find deeper meaning.

Arnold Rifkin (30:47):

Yeah.

Kevin Goetz (30:48):

What, what led you there?

*Arnold Rifkin (30:50):

This experience with the spiritual guide. I had a trainer who would come and see me twice a week. And each time I saw him, I've never seen eyes so white and clear. And I said to Kevin, I said, what is it that you do that when you come, you know, six o'clock in the morning, you look…and he told me about this gentleman. He told me about the sweats. And I said, I need for you to introduce me to him. And he became somebody really relevant in my life.

Kevin Goetz (31:18):

Did you do ayahuasca?

*Arnold Rifkin (31:20):

Oh, no. No. I met him and I shared with him what was happening in my life. And I said, I need some guidance. Are you open to that? And this was not a monetary situation, this was a spiritual one. And I connected with Richard. And for 15 years, he took me on a journey. And Cheyenne, the whole dragonfly thing just came to me when I started reading about the different tribes and it fit. And I had a shaman come out to the house and we cleansed the land, we cleansed the house, and I found out that there was water underneath my property, and I decided to create some lakes. We did that, and I had him oversee everything. Wow. Yeah, it was great. It was a great experience.

Kevin Goetz (32:03):

Sounds a little bit reminiscent of Hawk Koch's journey of kind of refining himself and getting bar mitzvahed at that later age and going through a real spiritual transformation.

Arnold Rifkin (32:15):

Yeah, I'm smiling because Hawk, we did Hostage together and we shot most of it across the street from his house where he lived in Topanga Canyon. And Hawk said to me, you need to stop calling me Howard. And I said, Hawk, listen man, I tell you what, I'll call you Hawk if you call me Prince, or whatever the word. I just gave him shit for it. I said, I can't call you Hawk man. I can't.

Kevin Goetz (32:40):

Now we don't know him as anything else.

Arnold Rifkin (32:42):

Right.

Kevin Goetz (32:42):

So, what was your first project you did with Mr. Willis?

Arnold Rifkin (32:46):

I think it was The Kid. It was a Disney movie. The second one was Bandits. We had to deal with Joe Roth, first look, we had to deal that MGM second look. And we were funded, I mean, by ourselves as well, but we didn't fund the films. So that's how it started. And he said, look, let's do it together. And I said, great. And we had an office on Fourth and Wilshire, beautiful office. And that's how that happened.

Kevin Goetz (33:12):

Were you with Bruce when he married Demi?

Arnold Rifkin (33:15):

I was in Paducah, Kentucky with In-Country where she gave birth. And they didn't have any mobiles over the crib. And I was out shopping for mobiles in Paducah, Kentucky. Probably population 800 people.

Kevin Goetz (33:32):

Sounds almost like your brothers.

Arnold Rifkin (33:34):

We could finish each other's sentences. Yeah. And we wore the same size sweaters. So metaphor, I mean.

Kevin Goetz (33:39):

Of course.

Arnold Rifkin (33:40):

Yeah. We lived together. I mean, there's no doubt. And then there was Stephen Eads, who was Bruce's boss at the bar. And after a year of being here, Bruce called him and said, Eads, I need you. And Stephen came out, and to this day, he's still in Bruce's life, 38 years.

Kevin Goetz (34:00):

So we know Bruce has obviously gone through some major health challenges.

Arnold Rifkin (34:05):

Yeah. Yes.

Kevin Goetz (34:06):

And it's been very, very, probably painful for you as a friend to watch him deteriorate. You still see him? Yes. I just wanna talk about that for two seconds. Yes. You're such a devoted friend and are still a partner in a large sense. It's taken on a different, profound kind of.

*Arnold Rifkin (34:22):

There was a time where we were not, and it wasn't an acrimonious time. It was everybody needed to move on for a while. I got the phone call from Stephen Eads, and I knew a little bit about what was happening, but I was not involved. And Stephen called and said that he'd like to see you, and are you open to that? And I said, absolutely. And that was 2018 maybe. So ultimately there was a small group of us and Fridays we would have lunch, and we had great moments. And there's moments when he smiles and you almost know that he remembers that moment that we're laughing at or whatever. Or we'd beat him up about his behavior. And it's, there's a little twinkle that's, listen, it's gonna be what it is. And if there's anything that one can do to bring a little bit of that life back, that spark, that's our job. That's part of our responsibility. What has evolved over all of this is Stephen and myself. I have a new company, a new studio called Incite. I have two wonderful partners.

Kevin Goetz (35:28):

Who are they?

Arnold Rifkin (35:29):

Jenner Furst and Justin Lee. And Jenner is a documentarian. His films are on every streamer. The Murdaugh Murders, Fyre Fraud. He's a filmmaker. And Justin was my partner. Justin created KCon with Mickey Lee. Yes. He was working for CJ at the time when they had him create a cultural event representing food, fashion. And Justin started it in 2012. And by 2019 there were 150,000 people coming and they were…

Kevin Goetz (35:58):

Whoa.

Arnold Rifkin (35:58):

They were in nine cities. Justin and I became friends in 2016.

Kevin Goetz (36:02):

So how did you form a company? What made you, this is such a different departure, isn't it?

Arnold Rifkin (36:07):

I just wanted to do something a little bit different. And Jenner and I met on a, I was put in as a producer. He was put in as a director to Stan Lee's daughter. She had written a graphic novel. Ah. And Mark Wahlberg's company was bringing me in and, and Jenner, and it became very clear, within an hour or so, neither of us were gonna participate in this adventure, but we decided to have lunch. And he had just moved to LA from New York. He'd been doing it for 20 years. He's 40 years old and way younger than I am. And I love that. And after about six months, we decided to form a company and I said, you've gotta meet Justin who was a partner with me. And that went well. And here's Incite. So I introduced Jenner to Stephen, and Stephen had a vision to honor Bruce. And for two years he was on it with Emma, Bruce's wife. And now that I was in the picture again, and now that I created his studio, Stephen and I both went to Emma at some point and said, we're probably the only two people that know everything, between my vault and Stephen's vault of memories. We're the only people that could tell that story and tell it with love, tell it with authenticity.

Kevin Goetz (37:32):

Dignity.

Arnold Rifkin (37:33):

And give him the dignity of who he was. But, listen, not to digress, but when 9/11 occurred, we had just done actor studio, whatever that was with James.

Kevin Goetz (37:43):

Inside Actor’s Studio.

Arnold Rifkin (37:45):

Yeah.

Kevin Goetz (37:45):

James Lipton.

Arnold Rifkin (37:46):

Yes. And Glen Karen flew out and never,

Kevin Goetz (37:49):

What is your favorite curse word?

*Arnold Rifkin (37:51):

<laugh>. Yeah, it was a trip. James. In any event, we were on our way to leave the hotel and the television's on, and we see what happens. I'm only sharing this for one reason. The tragedy and everything else, I can't address. But we were trapped and we went for a walk in Central Park and to understand the gravity of Bruce's persona, we are walking, and Bruce has got his hat on his glasses. Nobody knows who he is. I mean, we, we are definitely just, nobody's walking in the park. And we listen to somebody say, where is John McClane when you need him?

Kevin Goetz (38:31):

Oh man.

Arnold Rifkin (38:31):

Man. That was like, what?

Kevin Goetz (38:34):

Wow.

Arnold Rifkin (38:35):

That's insane.

Kevin Goetz (38:36):

Yeah. That's cultural impact.

Arnold Rifkin (38:38):

Unbelievable. So he needs to have his story told.

Kevin Goetz (38:43):

And so you're telling it.

Arnold Rifkin (38:44):

Yeah.

Kevin Goetz (38:45):

Yeah. Do you have a name?

Arnold Rifkin (38:47):

Right now it's just Bruce. That's Bruce man. For us it is one Bruce. Yeah.

Kevin Goetz (38:55):

That's fantastic. Bruce has had a profound impact on the industry, as you mentioned, and so many of the people in it. Is there anything you'd like people to understand about him as a collaborator and as a person?

*Arnold Rifkin (39:11):

You didn’t tell me you were going to ask that question. Wow. Bruce was, when fame hit, I don't know that he knew how to behave yet. And there were moments where it was inappropriate and there were moments that were amazing. But I feel as though he was a great father. And he loved to laugh. He loved to make people laugh. And he had a good time. I was not that person. I didn't grow up with that. I don't know how to describe it. Bruce is an anomaly. He really was. There were moments when he had a beach house and we're at two in the morning and enjoying a little high and sharing. And he was complicated. He had brothers and hard to be brothers and have a brother that's as famous as he is.

Kevin Goetz (40:00):

You bet.

Arnold Rifkin (40:01):

He was the patriarch.

Kevin Goetz (40:02):

Mm,

Arnold Rifkin (40:03):

For sure. And he took care of his mom and his dad. I mean, that, that was important to him.

Kevin Goetz (40:07):

It's menchi.

*Arnold Rifkin (40:08):

Yeah. And, then, and then there were moments when it's hard to be that star. One Halloween, first time when Rumer was four or five, I said, let's do Halloween. Let's do something normal. Let's go trick or treating. And we did it in the Palisades and, and my first kid was Blythe. And within about 15 minutes, this 9-year-old figured out that's John McClane. And he had to just dash and go and grab Rumer and be gone. I mean, he can't do that. He didn't figure that was gonna be the way it was. He thought he could still go to the movies.

Kevin Goetz (40:46):

Sure.

Arnold Rifkin (40:47):

You can't, dude. Not gonna happen.

Kevin Goetz (40:49):

Yeah. Not unplanned.

Arnold Rifkin (40:50):

Yeah. So it's hard to be a star.

Kevin Goetz (40:52):

Oh yeah.

Arnold Rifkin (40:53):

I really mean that. I've been around a lot of stars.

Kevin Goetz (40:55):

Oh, you bet.

Arnold Rifkin (40:55):

It's hard. Some of them handle it well, and some of them have nine bodyguards. I don't get it.

Kevin Goetz (41:01):

Well, let's just say it's just so not normal, and it changes your life forever because you've given yourself to the public in a way.

Arnold Rifkin (41:10):

Absolutely.

Kevin Goetz (41:12):

I love how people talk about themselves in the third person <laugh>. Yes. I just heard that recently about Liza Minnelli when she was younger. Somebody said she went to a party and did you enjoy yourself last night, Liza? Well, not really. They wanted her.

*Arnold Rifkin (41:26):

Yeah, I get that. But you know, reward too. I mean, there were things about it that were amazing as well. He was generous and perhaps sometimes to a fault. And sometimes he had moments where he was quiet, you know? And maybe not everybody saw that. That was, you know, I don't know how to describe him. I love him. I hate him. I love him.

Kevin Goetz (41:54):

It's brothers man.

Arnold Rifkin (41:55):

Absolutely. And what we see today is punishing to think that this was the ultimate action star. He defined, people admired and, and to think that.

Kevin Goetz (42:09):

You helped create that brand, if you will.

Arnold Rifkin (42:12):

And how do you help now?

Kevin Goetz (42:14):

You go every week and you see your brother and you see your friend.

Arnold Rifkin (42:18):

And you create this between Stephen and my partners Jenner. And we're gonna honor, we have so much footage.

Kevin Goetz (42:25):

That's, I love that. I mean, we all do. Yeah. How do you want your legacy to go down? How do you wanna be remembered?

Arnold Rifkin (42:34):

I wanna make an impact. I want my children…

Kevin Goetz (42:37):

How old are your kids?

Arnold Rifkin (42:38):

43, 40, 27, 19 and 17. The two youngest are 19 and 17. You've met them when they were, were babies. Babies. Oh my God.

Kevin Goetz (42:51):

Unbelievable.

Arnold Rifkin (42:52):

Now she's at University of Oregon.

Kevin Goetz (42:53):

I just wanna say for listeners who obviously can't see this, Arnold looks amazing.

Arnold Rifkin (42:59):

Ah, thank you.

Kevin Goetz (43:00):

Youthful. And I'm gonna go on a limb and say it's 'cause of those kids. <laugh>.

Arnold Rifkin (43:05):

Partially. I gotta give credit to my wife, Nikki. She makes me young. She's younger than I am, but I'm standing tall with her, man, and my children.

Arnold Rifkin (43:20):

Kai is almost six four. My God. Yeah. And Isabella is five 10 or whatever. And I don't know where any of that came from. Anyway, that was a digression. But my legacy is, I'm still living it. I've never been an empty nester. I've never had a minute where…

Kevin Goetz (43:39):

You're kind of looking forward to that.

Arnold Rifkin (43:40):

Absolutely.

Kevin Goetz (43:46):

I wanna just end with a question. If the 30-year-old Arnold Rifkin could give advice to the now senior Arnold, what would he say?

Arnold Rifkin (44:02):

You know what? I learned something by having people who relied on you or looked to you. I taught for 15 years at UCLA and had the most incredible experience. And that was Tom Sherak who introduced me to Howard Suber. And I had a great run. You have a choice. You can live in abundancy or you can live in scarcity. That's my world. And it's not about the car you drive, it's really about what you feel.

Kevin Goetz (44:27):

It truly, truly isn't.

Arnold Rifkin (44:29):

That's what I would share to anybody as a 30-year-old. Listen, I gotta say my name three times and spell it when I make phone calls. Now I'm okay with that, you know? So I'm on the other side.

Kevin Goetz (44:40):

I don't know about that.

Arnold Rifkin (44:41):

I'm telling you when I go up to the reception, I'm sorry, was that, is it with an R or is it with an F? It's okay.

Kevin Goetz (44:49):

Well, Arnold Rifkin, thank you so much for sharing your story today. My pleasure. Thank you for being the incredible human you are and for opening up like you did. And it's a beautiful thing. And I have no doubt that your next iteration in this new company is going to be as successful as what preceded it. Thanks again.

Arnold Rifkin (45:13):

I appreciate it. Wonderful to be here and nice to see you. Hello to Neil.

Kevin Goetz (45:17):

And to Nikki. To our listeners, I hope you enjoyed our interview today. For more filmmaking and audience testing stories, I invite you to check out my book Audienceology at Amazon or through my website at KevinGoetz360.com. You can also follow me on my social media. Next time on Don't Kill the Messenger, I'll welcome the powerhouse television and film producer, Jerry Bruckheimer. Until then, I'm Kevin Goetz, and to you, our listeners, I appreciate you being part of the movie-making process. Your opinions matter.

Host: Kevin Goetz
Guest: Arnold Rifkin
Producer: Kari Campano
Writers: Kevin Goetz, Darlene Hayman, and Kari Campano
Audio Engineer: Gary Forbes (DG Entertainment)