Podcast: Don't Kill the Messenger with Movie Research Expert Kevin Goetz
Guest: Executive Producer Michael Uslan

Interview Transcript:

Announcer (00:03):

From script to screen, every film is brought to life by visionary creatives and executives, all sharing one mission – to captivate the audience. Hosted by award-winning movie strategist, Kevin Goetz, our podcast, Don't Kill The Messenger, offers a filmmaking masterclass through intimate conversations with Hollywood's most influential voices. And now, your host, Kevin Goetz.

Kevin Goetz (00:29):

San Diego's Comic-Con is the world's biggest celebration of comic books, superheroes, and pop culture, drawing hundreds of thousands of fans every year since it launched in 1970. And my guest today, by the time he graduated high school, he had a collection of 30,000 comic books, and he has reportedly never missed this iconic Southern California convention. That's the kind of lifelong passion and commitment we are talking about. Listeners, please welcome the originator and executive producer of the Batman and Batman-related movie universe, Michael Uslan. Michael, I am so happy to have you here today,

Michael Uslan (01:11):

Kevin. I have been waiting for this moment.

Kevin Goetz (01:15):

Oh, I think we share a brain. I think we share. I was about to tell you six degrees of Michael Uslan because although we never really worked on a movie together, I've worked on several of the movies that you've been involved with, but you and I have never worked together. We have so many common threads.

Michael Uslan (01:36):

It is mind-boggling how many threads we have.

Kevin Goetz (01:38):

Sharon Stone. Yes. Mimi Craven.

Michael Uslan (01:40):

Yes.

Kevin Goetz (01:41):

Aaron Feuer, who works as one of my VPs of the movie group.

Michael Uslan (01:45):

My second son.

Kevin Goetz (01:46):

And by the way, best friends with your son, David.

Michael Uslan (01:48):

Yes.

Kevin Goetz (01:49):

And of course his parents. It goes on and on. But wow.

Michael Uslan (01:54):

The longer we talk, the more we find we have these threads that bring us together. It's really incredible.

Kevin Goetz (02:02):

So let me start with a Jersey boy to a Jersey boy.

Michael Uslan (02:06):

Yeah.

Kevin Goetz (02:06):

But you were Bayone and grew up in Monmouth County.

Michael Uslan (02:09):

I can clarify it, please. I was born at exit 14 C.

Kevin Goetz (02:14):

Okay.

Michael Uslan (02:15):

Grew up at Exit 14 A, moved to Exit 105

Kevin Goetz (02:22):

On the Garden State.

Michael Uslan (02:22):

On the Garden State Parkway.

Kevin Goetz (02:23):

That first for the turnpike. Correct. For those, those people who don't know.

Michael Uslan (02:27):

Oh, yeah. You have to know how to speak Jersey-ese. Now I live at Exit 145.

Kevin Goetz (02:32):

Now?

Michael Uslan (02:33):

Yeah.

Kevin Goetz (02:33):

You're in Springsteen territory.

Michael Uslan (02:36):

Yeah, I grew up down the street practically from him.

Kevin Goetz (02:38):

Yeah. Asbury Park and Colts Neck.

Michael Uslan (02:39):

Yeah. Belmar going all the way back.

Kevin Goetz (02:42):

That was my beach. Belmar was my beach. Michael and I are destined to be in each other's lives and to be dear, dear friends, we were just at a wedding, Aaron, of course. And his beautiful bride, Stephanie. Yes. In San Diego, which is again what I brought up earlier. San Diego, not an unfamiliar town for you. I mean, that was your playground with Comic-Con for years and years and years.

Michael Uslan (03:06):

Absolutely. And actually before San Diego Comic-Con existed, it was New York Comic-Con in a dingy hotel, wasn't it? Yes. The Broadway Central.

Kevin Goetz (03:15):

Oh god.

Michael Uslan (03:15):

It was probably, what year are we talking? 1965, Kevin. It was probably palatial, the weekend of Lincoln's inauguration, <laugh>. But in 1965, it was virtually collapsing upon itself. It was horrible.

Kevin Goetz (03:32):

What I love about you, among many things, is the fact that you are living proof of finding your love at the earliest age, which I can relate to, by the way. And very few of us can, and never really veering from your leitmotif, the thing that really sparked your passion, your love of comic books.

*Michael Uslan (03:57):

Truly. My mom told me I learned to read before I was four from comic books, and they were always around me. I have an older brother, Paul, who brought them initially into the house. My older brother was a superstar at every sport he ever did, and I grew up living in that shadow.

Kevin Goetz (04:13):

Just the two of you? The two of us. Is he still with us?

Michael Uslan (04:16):

Yeah. He is an optometrist in Ann Arbor, Michigan. And loves what he does also.

Kevin Goetz (04:21):

He's still into comic books.

Michael Uslan (04:22):

No, he has let me run with that ball. But he loves his optometry business.

Kevin Goetz (04:28):

Well, you've been mildly successful with taking that ball. I can't even fathom how I begin this conversation because you have so many credits, you're so accomplished. But I do wanna start with one of my favorite shows, my entryway into the Batman universe, and I know you have an opinion about it. And my brother Peter's favorite show, which was the Batman series in the sixties, probably the bane of your existence. Tell me about it.

Michael Uslan (04:58):

Nah, nah, nah, nah, nah, nah, nah, nah, nah, nah, nah. <laugh>

Kevin Goetz (05:02):

To any purist. It is the Antichrist.

*Michael Uslan (05:04):

<laugh>. It was because by that point in time, Kevin, I was a hardcore comic book fan. I was already involved in the history of the comic books and the superheroes. I lived an hour outside of New York City, and it turned out I learned that all the great creators, writers, artists, editors of the comic books, they lived either in New Jersey or Long Island or New York City, because the whole industry was really based in New York at that time. So thanks to my parents supporting my crazy interests on weekends, I would go and visit these creators in their homes and interview them. And they opened up the world of comic books and comic book lore.

Kevin Goetz (05:51):

Like as a teenager?

Michael Uslan (05:52):

Starting at age 12.

Kevin Goetz (05:54):

Wow.

Michael Uslan (05:54):

And that became such important part of my life. But I met the creators of Batman. I met Bob Kane, and I met Bill Finger. I'm one of the only people alive today that met Bill Finger.

Kevin Goetz (06:06):

But they were literally the creators from the, what year are we talking? 

Michael Uslan (06:11):

1939 Batman.

Kevin Goetz (06:12):

But Kane went on to do the series.

Michael Uslan (06:15):

Kane survived Finger.

Kevin Goetz (06:17):

Aha.

Michael Uslan (06:17):

Finger never got the money, and never got the credit, and died penniless in an unknown grave.

Kevin Goetz (06:24):

Oh Lord, help me.

Michael Uslan (06:24):

And there's been a big effort thanks to Mark Tyler Nobleman, Bill Finger's, granddaughter, Athena, and a bunch of us who worked hard over the years to get him credit as the co-creator of Batman,

Kevin Goetz (06:36):

Very menschy.

*Michael Uslan (06:37):

And to get his estate paid for the contribution. And that's been an important part. But I met these guys. They told me how Batman was created. They told me what the vision was for Batman in 1939 when they created it. And it was not to make Batman into a joke. It was not to make him into a comedy, to have people all around the world laughing at Batman. So as someone who was schooled by the creators, that was anathema.

Kevin Goetz (07:06):

But the creator did it.

Michael Uslan (07:07):

Bob Kane went along with DC comics in a very lucrative deal to bring Batman to TV.

Kevin Goetz (07:16):

Did he regret it?

Michael Uslan (07:17):

No, he didn't regret it. He enjoyed anything that made a dollar. And he had, I don't even want to go into this, but he had somebody actually draw paintings and lithographs and things for him that he put his name on so he could sell them and get into art galleries. You know, there's a dark side to the story, but for me, it was about defending and protecting Batman.

Kevin Goetz (07:39):

So when that series came on, you really, even at that age, you were a teenager. You didn't root for it. You watched it.

Michael Uslan (07:47):

I will tell you now, the secret origin of Michael. The secret origin starts at the end of the first episode of the Batman TV show. It was January, 1966.

Kevin Goetz (07:57):

Of the first episode.

Michael Uslan (07:58):

First episode.

Kevin Goetz (07:59):

Wasn't that Jill St. John in that the only villain who died was Jill St. John. She's a friend of mine. That's why I’m bringing it up.

Michael Uslan (08:04):

Ah, well, it might've been the first episode.

Kevin Goetz (08:07):

She was on the top of that tanker, and she fell to her death. It was the cheesiest thing ever. <laugh>. I've never seen anything cheesier. In fact, Burt Ward who played Robin and Jill changed identities.

Michael Uslan (08:19):

I remember that. I should thank her someday because diamonds are forever.

Kevin Goetz (08:24):

Yeah. Many uh, straight men have <laugh> have said that. Hey, so go back to the first episode. Yeah. Ended at the first episode.

*Michael Uslan (08:31):

So look, it was in color, which was not too usual at that time. Somebody was spending a lot of money on the sets. The Batmobile was cool, the opening animation, and kinda looked like Bob Kane, Jerry Robinson artwork from the comic books. But when I realized that they were laughing at Batman, and he was a joke, I made a vow in my downstairs den in front of my two friends, Bobby and Barry, who egged me on. I made a vow like young Bruce Wayne once made a vow. He made a vow over the bloody bodies of his parents who had just been killed in the street. My parents were safe upstairs in the kitchen, but I made my vow anyway. And I said, somehow, someday I will show the world the true Batman, the dark and serious Dark Knight who fights these deeply disturbed villains from the shadows. And I dedicated myself, and this is at about age 15, I said, I am gonna find some way to remove from the collective consciousness of the world culture, these words that are bombarding me, pow, zap, wham. And that was probably the hardest thing to do of all.

Kevin Goetz (09:40):

And it took you almost a dozen years to get anyone to pay attention to a new reinvented, reimagined Batman, the way you saw him and how he should have been portrayed. Initially.

Michael Uslan (09:53):

From the time that my Batman partner, Ben Melnicker, and I purchased the rights to Batman, which was October 3rd, 1979, till the first movie actually came out after being rejected by every single studio in Hollywood and every mini major, it was 10 years, which I describe as a human endurance contest. And they told me I was crazy, that it was the worst idea they ever heard.

Kevin Goetz (10:17):

Let me hear some of the people and some of the comments that were made along the way.

Michael Uslan (10:21):

<laugh>. Well, one of my friends, who I'm sure you know, I used to work at United Artists when it was a major motion picture studio.

Kevin Goetz (10:26):

We should let our listeners know you are an attorney by trade. Yeah. You went to school to be an attorney. And right out of school you went to United Artists, right?

*Michael Uslan (10:35):

Correct. Age 25. Got it. And I wound up pitching it to the head of East Coast production at that time, at United Artists. He listened to my pitch. I pitched my heart out for my dark and serious Batman. And he said, Michael, you're crazy. Batman and Robin will never be successful as a motion picture because the movie Robin and Marian hasn't done well at the box office.

Kevin Goetz (11:04):

So the commonality was the word Robin.

Michael Uslan (11:06):

It's the only thing for any listeners who don't know. Back around 1979, this was a movie with Sean Connery and Audrey Hepburn about an aging Robin Hood and Maid Marian. So what? What do I do with that, Kevin? I walked out of the room, stunned. I had been rejected by UA for that reason. And periodically over the next 10 years, I would go sit on the top of a mountain in a lotus position and ponder what he said to me, <laugh>. And I could only conclude that the word Robin was the nexus.

Kevin Goetz (11:35):

I don't even know what you do with that information. And I don't think you can top that story with anyone else who's gonna shit on your project.

Michael Uslan (11:40):

Oh, I can.

Kevin Goetz (11:40):

Don't you love the naysayers? The revenge is a dish best served cold.

*Michael Uslan (11:46):

Absolutely. Kevin. My whole life has been about rejection and how you deal with it, and how you don't let it overcome you, pull you down.

Kevin Goetz (11:55):

A hundred percent. Which is so easy. And so many people wanna do it to you.

Michael Uslan (11:58):

Oh, understand.

Kevin Goetz (11:59):

They wanna keep you down. Of course. You know. And then when you make it, they want to get you off your pedestal. Often that's the case, I guess, in any business, but very prevalent in ours.

Michael Uslan (12:09):

Oh yeah.

Kevin Goetz (12:10):

But go ahead. So you were saying,

Michael Uslan (12:11):

So I was pitching at Columbia,

Kevin Goetz (12:13):

This is within that 10 year period.

Michael Uslan (12:14):

This was, I would call it sometime in the early eighties.

Kevin Goetz (12:17):

Okay.

*Michael Uslan (12:18):

And the guy who was there, who was a friend of my partner, Ben's, for like 25, 30 years, dapper silver hair guy. And I'm pitching my heart out on the dark and serious Batman. And he turns to me, he goes, Michael, you're nuts. Batman will never be successful as a movie because our movie Annie hasn't done well. Kevin, I looked at him and I go, are you talking about the little redhead girl from Broadway who sings the song Tomorrow? He goes, yeah. I go, well, what does that have to do with Batman? He said, oh, come on, Michael. They're both out of the funny pages.

Kevin Goetz (12:54):

Well, listeners, you got a project no one wants to do. You believe in it more than anyone else. Just make and market it for the right price.

Michael Uslan (13:01):

You said it.

Kevin Goetz (13:02):

And you'll make money, but make sure you do it for the right price, which means you have to understand what you had. And Michael understood, you understand, and have always understood what you had. I was curious that you are executive producer on all of these Batman movies. Fast forward to many years later, I guess your, I mean, among many contributions, probably your strongest contribution was that of brand asset manager to guard the integrity of your vision.

*Michael Uslan (13:31):

I love how you sum that up, because that triggers a story. After the Annie experience, we had now been turned down by every studio in Hollywood. Ben, who was my dad's age, and I are sitting on like a park bench on the studio lot. I have like my head between my legs. I am so beside myself. And what had just happened after that Annie moment, the executive turned to me and said, listen, Ben, I've known you for a long time. If you boys really wanna make a Batman movie, I will consider it. But it's got to be the potbellied funny guy with the Pows, Zaps, and the Whams from TV, because that's the only one audiences will remember and love.

Kevin Goetz (14:14):

In fairness, I could understand that. At least that makes sense to me, because you do have to reeducate and kind of reimagine something and get audiences to buy into it. So it's not as bad as those other people who shat on your property.

*Michael Uslan (14:30):

No, it is not. And had I not been a student of Batman history and known the creators and heard from them what the vision was and what they wanted, and was a fanboy, that knowing the dark Batman was the only way to protect the integrity of the character. I said to him, no. And he pulled his chair up in front of me, Kevin, and he leaned in and he said, son, and I know whenever anyone calls me son, I'm in trouble. Son, better to have a movie made than no movie at all. And I looked at him and I said, no. How old were you? 30.

Kevin Goetz (15:08):

Incredible. And you hadn't made a movie yet?

Michael Uslan (15:10):

No.

Kevin Goetz (15:11):

That's nerve. That's chutzpah.

*Michael Uslan (15:12):

Or insanity. So what Ben said, we're sitting on the park bench. I'm beside myself. Ben said, you know, Michael, it's very ironic. The last no we received for Batman came from you. He said, you know what that makes you? I said, yeah, Ben, an idiot. He goes, no, no, no, no, no. You have this vision for Batman that you completely believe in, that you think his creators would believe in, and you just turn down a boatload of money and a chance to produce your first major motion picture in order to protect Batman. He said, Michael, your Batman's defender, you're Batman's Batman.

Kevin Goetz (15:54):

I love that.

Michael Uslan (15:55):

And he said, now, let's get up off this bench. There's other sources besides studios. There's independent financing, foreign financing. We have to redouble our efforts. Let's go. And we jumped up off that bench. My whole attitude changed and ultimately jumped into history.

Kevin Goetz (16:11):

And how did we get to a yes? Tell us that story.

Michael Uslan (16:15):

So Ben came to me one day. He said, I got a call from Gordon Stohlberg. Now Gordon at that time was the former president of 20th Century Fox. He said he's working with Polygram over in Europe, and they are about to put a cash infusion into Peter Guber and Neil Bogart's company, Casablanca Records, and they're gonna open a film division. So Ben said, back in 1969, I try to hire young Peter Guber to run MGM in Troika with Barry Beckerman and Jerry Takofsky. He said, ultimately, Peter decided to go with Columbia. But he said, he's much younger than the execs you've been pitching to. He's hipper, and maybe it'll resonate with him. So he got Peter on the phone, we're in New York, Peter's in LA and I pitch it over the phone and Peter says, this sounds really unique, really interesting. Can you be in my office tomorrow and gimme the full pitch?

(17:08):

I said, I can't. I'm in New York, but I can be there the day after tomorrow. He said, fine. So we fly out to LA, Sunset Boulevard, the Old Casablanca records building, and I meet Neil and I meet Peter and Barry Beckerman, who is Peter's head of development, who Ben knew from the MGM troika attempt. And I pitched it. And for the first time, I had an executive who was so excited. He was pacing back and forth in the room and just saying, okay. He goes, we have an output deal with Universal. Raphael Etkes is the president of production at Universal. He is my friend. This will be a put deal to Universal. And let's get cracking.

Kevin Goetz (17:50):

Did you have a story in already by that time?

Michael Uslan (17:53):

I had a 17-page memo.

Kevin Goetz (17:56):

Got it. I thought you were just pitching kind of the character, the tone, the mood, the style. But you had a 17-pagestory.

*Michael Uslan (18:02):

It wasn't just a story, it was really more of a Bible. It was breakdown so that they would understand Batman, Alfred,and Commissioner Gordon, and the villains also with a list of potential actors who could play the role. I remember from my original list.

Kevin Goetz (18:16):

You were prepared.

Michael Uslan (18:18):

Yeah, I was prepared. I was prepared.

Kevin Goetz (18:20):

You were ready.

Michael Uslan (18:21):

But Kevin, this is so long ago now that the actor I had as an example of who would make a great Commissioner Gordon, was William Holden. He would've, and who would make a great Alfred was David Niven. Ah, that's how long ago.

Kevin Goetz (18:35):

This was genius. And they both would've been great.

Michael Uslan (18:37):

They would've been great.

Kevin Goetz (18:39):

So Peter Guber was really the guy who said Yes.

Michael Uslan (18:43):

Never would've happened without Peter.

Kevin Goetz (18:45):

Wow. And how long did it take to get into production on the first movie?

Michael Uslan (18:51):

Nine and a half years.

Kevin Goetz (18:52):

From that?

Michael Uslan (18:53):

Yes. This is what my memoir, The Boy Who Loved Batman, is all about.

Kevin Goetz (18:57):

Oh, listeners, you've gotta read this book. The Boy Who Loved Batman. It's your memoir and starts from when you were a young boy. It does. And your passion in comics and leading into Batman, but many comics, stories, characters and so forth. Right.

Michael Uslan (19:11):

I collected everything. I read everything. I met Stan Lee when I was 11 years old, and he became my mentor. And later my friend and my creative partner on some projects. And when he died, my son, David and I, were two of the producers of his memorial at Grauman's Chinese Theater.

Kevin Goetz (19:29):

I'm very well aware, and we are gonna talk about that in the second half of our interview. I don't wanna step on the question that I asked you about the nine and a half years to get to the first Batman, which was just called Batman.

Michael Uslan (19:45):

Yeah. I think I had suggested The Batman 'cause to me, The in front of Batman was the signal to the world this was not the funny guy. This was the Dark original, the Batman, The carried a lot of weight.

Kevin Goetz (19:59):

But ultimately it was just Batman.

Michael Uslan (20:01):

Ultimately it was Batman. But many years later came The Batman part one.

Kevin Goetz (20:06):

But also they had an output deal with Universal. But it was released through Warner Brothers. Correct. So there's part of that is the story.

Michael Uslan (20:12):

Oh, yeah. Because, oh my God, it's so convoluted. Etkes left Universal, and then Casablanca changed its deal to Filmways 'cause he went over and became, I think the president of Filmways. Then Orion bought Filmways. So then the deal went for about 10 months in negotiation with 20th Century Fox. Deal couldn't be secured at the end of the day. Couldn't come to terms. And then Warner Brothers came in. Now here's a story. Warner had a right of first refusal under my contract with DC Comics, plus Warner Brothers owned DC Comics. So my partner Ben called Warner Brothers, the vice president who was in charge at the time and said, we wanna come in. We've closed the deal on Batman. We have a whole concept for the show for how we want to do it. We wanna come in and pitch it to you. And we got a telex spec. This, I don't even know how to describe Telex to the listeners.

Kevin Goetz (21:14):

It made it.

Michael Uslan (21:15):

Yeah, yeah, yeah. It was like a hybrid between a telegram and email.

Kevin Goetz (21:19):

And a fax.

*Michael Uslan (21:20):

And fax, yeah. And it basically said, we have no interest in this. Goodbye and good luck. They didn't even want us to come in and pitch.

Kevin Goetz (21:27):

Devastating.

Michael Uslan (21:29):

Yeah. I actually reprinted that telex in my book, The Boy Who Loved Batman.

Kevin Goetz (21:35):

So another reason to buy the book <laugh>.

Michael Uslan (21:37):

Yeah. We didn't even get the chance. So it was a couple of years later that Warner Brothers actually came into it.

Kevin Goetz (21:43):

Why? What made Warner Brothers come in?

Michael Uslan (21:45):

Peter convinced him.

Kevin Goetz (21:46):

Aha. Was he an executive there?

Michael Uslan (21:49):

By that time, Casablanca, I think, was transforming into Polygram Pictures.

Kevin Goetz (21:53):

I see. And now, how did you make money during this time? Were you at UA still?

Michael Uslan (21:59):

No, I had to quit my job in order to do this.

Kevin Goetz (22:02):

But what did you do for nine and a half years to make well money?

Michael Uslan (22:04):

First of all, I quit UA when my wife was 9 months pregnant.

Kevin Goetz (22:10):

Oh geez.

Michael Uslan (22:11):

And said goodbye to my medical insurance, my dental plan.

Kevin Goetz (22:14):

Okay. That's ballsy or insane.

*Michael Uslan (22:17):

I couldn't have done it without her full support. I had a great support system with my parents, her parents, my brother, my friends. You can't do this alone. You've got to have people that believe in you and back you.

Kevin Goetz (22:30):

Did they actually give you the money to follow your dream?

Michael Uslan (22:34):

No, actually they offered. Nancy's parents offered, but I wouldn't take it from family. I had been told you do not take investment money from family.

Kevin Goetz (22:42):

So what'd you do?

*Michael Uslan (22:43):

I went to a network of friends, doctors, dentists, lawyers, and sold them shares, sold them shares of this venture. It wasn't in the company, it was in the project. So it was in the first Batman movie.

Kevin Goetz (22:57):

So you never had to pay beyond that. Smart. Yeah. That's a very interesting piece of this puzzle. So you were very resourceful.

Michael Uslan (23:05):

I have to say that all these friends and all their connections, nobody knew a damn thing about Batman.

Kevin Goetz (23:12):

But they believed in you.

Michael Uslan (23:13):

They were investing in me. And that put another layer of responsibility on my shoulders.

Kevin Goetz (23:20):

That's super cool, man. That is just great. I've always banked on myself when I've been asked to take stock in another company. I'm like, no, I'll take stock in myself. I believe in me and I believe what I can do. And it's wonderful when you have people that also really believe in you and what you can accomplish. Really, it's really very moving. When we come back, we're gonna talk to Michael about Stan Lee among things. We'll be back in a moment. If you are curious about how movies actually turn a profit, I've got something for you. My upcoming book, How to Score in Hollywood, dives into the intersection of creative instinct and audience insight, and where the business of film meets the art of storytelling. The book is available for pre-order now on your favorite bookseller platform. I'm also putting together a book launch team, and I'd love for you to be a part of it. We're looking for people to help spread the word ahead of our November release, and also to leave a short book review after its release. In exchange, you'll get early access to the book, exclusive behind-the-scenes content, and more. Sign up to join my launch team or for book updates at KevinGoetz360.com. And as always, thank you for your support. We are back with the wonderfully committed, passionate, and exemplary producer and man, Michael Uslan.

Michael Uslan (24:46):

And a little insane.

Kevin Goetz (24:47):

And a little insane, which I agree with, and part of the alchemy of your success, I imagine. So tell us about Stan Lee 'cause Stan, to my understanding is that Stan actually came to you because there was a lot of press and publicity when you were a student at Indiana University. And while you were in school, you were actually teaching the first accredited course, and it was on comic books.

Michael Uslan (25:16):

First in the world, the first college accredited course on comic books.

Kevin Goetz (25:19):

And you're a student?

Michael Uslan (25:20):

I was a junior.

Kevin Goetz (25:21):

That's beautiful. So he gets wind of this because that brought a lot of attention to you and your collection. What was that like to get that phone call?

Michael Uslan (25:31):

Do you remember the movie, The 10 Commandments with Charlton Heston?

Kevin Goetz (25:34):

The parting of the Red Sea?

Michael Uslan (25:36):

No, it was, oh no. It was when the Burning Bush appears and starts talking to him.

Kevin Goetz (25:41):

So God appeared.

Michael Uslan (25:42):

Oh my God. Yeah. This was my God. This was my burning bush. 

Kevin Goetz (25:46):

Well, how did it work?

Michael Uslan (25:47):

So I’d gotten a lot of publicity.

Kevin Goetz (25:48):

The registrar saying, uh, Michael, you have a message from

*Michael Uslan (25:54):

Nope, but better than that, Kevin. Good. Better than that. This course got tons of publicity. I was on radio and TV talk shows. Every class I taught, there were television cameras and reporters. John Chancellor, NBC Nightly News, Parade Magazine, Playboy, I mean, everything you could imagine. And all the PR’s out there. I've been teaching for two weeks and my telephone rings and it's this exuberant male voice. And he goes, Hi, is this Mike Uslan? I go, yeah. He goes, hiya, Mike, this is Stan Lee from Marvel Comics in New York City. Boom. Frozen

Kevin Goetz (26:32):

Mic drop.

*Michael Uslan (26:33):

Frozen mic drop. And he said, Mike, everywhere I look, I'm seeing you on tv, I'm hearing you on the radio. I'm reading about you in newspapers. What you're doing is great for the entire comic book industry. How can I help you? That was the conversation.

Kevin Goetz (26:49):

And after you said Ham, aham, hamina, <laugh>, what was your next?

Michael Uslan (26:53):

The next thing is I asked him if he could send me some comics and support material. If he could send me artists and writers to lecture at my class, which he did. And we developed a connection. And that was…

Kevin Goetz (27:09):

Marvel was really not Marvel.

Michael Uslan (27:11):

They were growing. But this is like 1972.

Kevin Goetz (27:14):

I remember as a kid, a Marvel comic. But like nothing beyond that.

Michael Uslan (27:18):

No, no, no.

Kevin Goetz (27:19):

So it was really inside baseball, wasn't it?

Michael Uslan (27:21):

Yeah. In a large way it was. And it was a magic time for me. The fact that he took me under his wing. The fact that I could talk to him, ask questions. It was an incredible relationship to have.

Kevin Goetz (27:34):

I just wanna say that this hearkens back to Aaron, who works for me. Aaron Feuer.

Michael Uslan (27:39):

Yeah.

Kevin Goetz (27:40):

Coming up to you at what age? 12 or something?

Michael Uslan (27:43):

Yeah, that's right.

Kevin Goetz (27:43):

And saying, oh my gosh, I wanna learn everything. Can you teach me about the business? Can you teach me? What can I, he was, tell me that?

Michael Uslan (27:52):

He was an exuberant little kid and this all happened at a bat mitzvah, or as I like to say these days, a Bat mitzvah.

Kevin Goetz (28:02):

<laugh>.

Michael Uslan (28:03):

And you know, he was right there in my face, just filled with energy and a zillion questions.

Kevin Goetz (28:11):

What did he wanna do then?

Michael Uslan (28:12):

He wanted to be an actor. And I'm telling him all the reasons you should run screaming into the night and go into your dad's business or do anything.

Kevin Goetz (28:21):

I’m surprised about that actually.

Michael Uslan (28:22):

Oh yeah. No. I try to scare him out of it.

Kevin Goetz (28:25):

Right 'cause if you can do anything else, do it. Is what we always learned when I was at the Acting Conservatory, was if you could be that easily persuaded to not do it, meaning you have to have a reason to stay with it.

Michael Uslan (28:37):

That's exactly right. You try to scare them off. And the ones that don't get scared have the best chance of success.

Kevin Goetz (28:44):

Understood. Uh, sorry. So I derailed us, but I, it speaks to you as a man and what you are essentially doing, which is paying it forward. You know.

*Michael Uslan (28:53):

You have to, if this is not ultimately about legacy, then what's the point? It's why I go back every year to Indiana University and I teach two intensive courses for three weeks. I take on a lot of different roles there to be helpful. I was the commencement speaker in front of what turned out to be 34,000 people. And I'm happy to report my commencement address was declared by USA today to be one of the 10 top commencement addresses of all time.

Kevin Goetz (29:22):

Well, hey, I don't think you've listened to mine.

Michael Uslan (29:24):

I have not. <laugh>, I have not.

Kevin Goetz (29:26):

I did it.

Michael Uslan (29:26):

We should do a dog and pony show.

Kevin Goetz (29:27):

I actually, I'm very, very proud. I took it so seriously. When I was asked to give the commencement speech at Mason Gross School of the Arts at Rutgers, it was one of the proudest moments for me. And I still get calls today from kids who remember it. It's on YouTube for those who wanna check it out. But I thought it was a really seminal moment for me. So I get it. I get what you're saying. It's so special.

*Michael Uslan (29:49):

It really is. And you're impacting so many people. Yeah. And I've gotten feedback over the last 10 years from that speech as how it convinced people to try to take their shot to believe in themselves.

Kevin Goetz (30:04):

I'm still floored by you saying no when you had that offer on the table. That is just spectacular and a great lesson. Tell me, and I know you are asked this a million times, and I almost never ask this question 'cause it's terribly obvious. What do you tell now, a young filmmaker, a young person getting in the business that wants to get into comics or movies based on comic books or graphic novels? What do you say to them? Because I know that Comic-Con is filled with people with thousands of ideas. How do they get it.

*Michael Uslan (30:42):

As are our schools. So number one is you've got to have your age of exploration. You've got to discover your passions in life. And once you discover that passion, you've gotta get up off the damn couch. If you have a misguided sense of entitlement that the world owes you something, or the world's gonna come to you, you're sunk. You gotta get up off the couch. You gotta be proactive. And one of the things I learned early on was that I had a misconception. I thought that this career of mine was gonna be a war. And every day I was gonna go to battle and fight a war for my projects. It's not that at all. It's a siege. This is a siege. You have to dig a foxhole, put on a helmet, hunker down. And the most important…

Kevin Goetz (31:29):

What do you hunker down with? What do you do?

Michael Uslan (31:31):

Well, first thing you do is figure out who you allow into that foxhole to watch your back. That's maybe the most important thing of all. I screwed up three times on that one.

Kevin Goetz (31:41):

You mean three partners that burned you?

Michael Uslan (31:43):

Almost drove me out of the business.

Kevin Goetz (31:45):

Wow.

*Michael Uslan (31:46):

Terribly, terribly important. And when it comes to things like movies or comics, I teach my class that if you want a job in this industry, that means you're gonna have to appear before an old fart like me in an interview. And you gotta get through me. So what's gonna happen? You're gonna come into my office and you're gonna tell me how passionate you are about movies. Why are you passionate? I see everything and I watch all the TV shows and I'm gonna say, oh really? Geez. That's great. So tell me, what's your favorite Alfred Hitchcock movie? What's your favorite Frank Capra movie? Now, if you look at me like a deer caught in the headlights, your ass is gonna be outta my office in a second and a half. A second and a half. If you're telling me you're passionate and have not taken the time to learn how we got here, who got us here, how this has all evolved. I don’t wanna know from you. Step one of the whole process.

Kevin Goetz (32:44):

Do you believe in this idea, I've encouraged people to do this if they have a good dark kind of universe building idea is to craft a graphic novel, reverse engineer it, in other words, yes. And then have something that your now idea is based on, 'cause then there's some underlying intellectual property. Are you a fan of that sort of idea?

Michael Uslan (33:08):

I'm not simply a fan. I'm an original subscriber. And it is of critical importance in our industry to not just our industry, whether you're talking about movies, TV, animation, theater, Broadway, it's all about brand. It's about brands and franchises. Brands, brands, brands.

Kevin Goetz (33:27):

That's the name of your company.

*Michael Uslan (33:29):

Yeah. Branded Entertainment. That's exactly right. You mix that with star power. Those are the two things that are really governing right now if you wanna get financed and distribution, if you don't wanna be lost among the clutter that's out there through streaming and television and everywhere else, when it comes time to vote in the Emmys, I'm now getting, it seems like 250 things that are being submitted. And I sit with my kids who are both in this industry, and we look at all of them. And among the three of us, we never even heard of two-thirds of these things.

Kevin Goetz (34:02):

Absolutely. A hundred percent agree with you.

Michael Uslan (34:03):

Clutter. So you need the brand.

Kevin Goetz (34:05):

And by the way, half of those two thirds are damn good.

Michael Uslan (34:11):

I will go along with that.

Kevin Goetz (34:12):

There's an audience for them.

Michael Uslan (34:14):

If you can be discovered.

Kevin Goetz (34:15):

And that's really your point is let's assume that most everything that makes it on air is pretty decent.

Speaker 5 (34:22):

Mm-hmm <affirmative>.

Kevin Goetz (34:23):

If not downright good or even very good. But how do you learn about it? So to your point, if you don't have something that's going to pull you out of that sameness, you're kind of stuck. I mean, how do you get beyond that?

*Michael Uslan (34:41):

There's a financial element to this too. Let's say you're a writer and you've got an original screenplay that you wanna start a franchise or you want to do something. It's exactly what you said. If instead of going out with an original screenplay, which makes life even tougher, and you don't have a brand attached, you reverse engineer your brand. So you make the deal for a book or a graphic novel, and then you can hold it in front of an executive's face.

Kevin Goetz (35:08):

Exactly.

Michael Uslan (35:09):

A solid project that they know somebody invested money into and that it's out there. And that's critically important. Now, financially, as a writer, you are now the literary property owner. So if you make a deal, you're gonna get an option payment. You're ultimately gonna get a literary purchase price.

Kevin Goetz (35:26):

In music world, it's like the master use and the publishing rights.

Michael Uslan (35:29):

Correct. And then on top of that, you're being paid for a screenplay, whether it's one draft, two drafts.

Kevin Goetz (35:34):

It's holding both forms of those. Yeah. Yeah. That's really smart.

Michael Uslan (35:37):

And you've added so much income.

Kevin Goetz (35:39):

Indeed. So I'm glad I've sort of advised people to go in that direction. Stan passed away. I know you mentioned you guys had a lifelong relationship and then you honored him in such a magnificent way at Grauman's Chinese. Can you tell us about that?

*Michael Uslan (35:57):

Yeah. We did this with Legion M, which is an organization made up of fans, and it was just wonderful. We had a lot of people there from Kevin Smith was moderating people from Mark Hamill to Laurence Fishburne to RZA. People from the TV shows and the movies as well as from the world of comic books. And it was kind of a like, uh, this is your life, Stan Lee retrospective. It was an entire day long. And I have to say, I kicked it off in front of Grauman's Chinese Theater the way I knew Stan would want this to go.

Kevin Goetz (36:36):

Which was?

Michael Uslan (36:37):

Which was me standing up there and going, none of this would exist. There would be no Marvel Universe. This was not a one man show. These were done with Stan and his co-creators. Jack Kirby, Steve Ditko, I had Jack Kirby's granddaughter come up, Steve Ditko's nephew, come up and make sure everybody understood this was a co-creation process of many people.

Kevin Goetz (37:00):

Collaboration.

Michael Uslan (37:01):

Yep. Yep. That's how he would've wanted it.

Kevin Goetz (37:03):

In a sentence, describe him to me.

*Michael Uslan (37:06):

Exuberant, funny, smart, creative, and filled with life and love.

Kevin Goetz (37:14):

You're getting emotional.

Michael Uslan (37:15):

I'm sorry.

Kevin Goetz (37:16):

No, don't apologize. He touched you deeply.

Michael Uslan (37:19):

Yeah.

Kevin Goetz (37:20):

We all have people, I think, or hopefully lucky enough to have people who inspired us the way he inspired you. What is the now legacy of Stan and the Marvel Universe and where are we heading with it?

Michael Uslan (37:37):

I believe that Stan and his co-creators are today's version of not only Walt Disney, but Homer. I think they have given us a modern day mythology. Archetypes. Yes. And it doesn't matter.

Kevin Goetz (37:55):

That's Jungian. I mean, that's very, very deep.

Michael Uslan (37:58):

It is very deep and meaningful, psychologically.

Kevin Goetz (37:59):

Yeah.

Michael Uslan (38:00):

And that's what transcends cultures as well as borders. It doesn't matter, Kevin, if we call them King Arthur in the Knights of the Round Table or the Avengers, it's the same thing. It's about hope, redemption, it's about the journey of the hero. And that's what they've given us.

Kevin Goetz (38:20):

Do you like where Marvel's going right now?

Michael Uslan (38:22):

I'm a big fan of Kevin Feige.

Kevin Goetz (38:24):

Well, what a major talent.

Michael Uslan (38:26):

Oh, Kevin worked with us back on The Days of Constantine when he was with Lauren Shuler Donner. I believe in Kevin.

Kevin Goetz (38:32):

See, he said it again, folks. I believe in Kevin, which again, if you don't have that strong visionary and leadership, you're kind of sunk.

Michael Uslan (38:41):

Yeah. DC has it now too.

Kevin Goetz (38:42):

That's what you did for the Batman franchise. That was you. That is you.

Michael Uslan (38:46):

Well, today it's DC films and you've got James Gunn and Peter Safran over there who are just getting started with Superman. That's gonna be really their big debut. And I believe in these guys.

Kevin Goetz (38:58):

Have they reached out to you to consult with you at all?

Michael Uslan (39:00):

Peter's great. You know, we,

Kevin Goetz (39:02):

Peter is great.

Michael Uslan (39:02):

We have a wonderful, wonderful relationship.

Kevin Goetz (39:04):

I worked on many, many movies with Peter over the years.

Michael Uslan (39:07):

And as I've told them right now, I'm not a kid anymore. I'm 74.

Kevin Goetz (39:12):

You look marvelous.

Michael Uslan (39:14):

Oh, thank you so much.

Kevin Goetz (39:14):

You look marvelous

Michael Uslan (39:15):

<laugh>. I am now their biggest cheerleader.

Kevin Goetz (39:19):

That's great.

Michael Uslan (39:20):

I am now Batman's biggest cheerleader. Batman will live forever because he's human.

Kevin Goetz (39:27):

Yeah. I want to talk about the future of superheroes in general. I think what you did and what Stan did, and I know Stan talked about this publicly, was humanizing these characters, making them feel and come to life in a way that we could all relate to. And that goes back to the archetypal nature of these characters. But even more than that, these are like flawed individuals. Is that the secret of the great superheroes?

*Michael Uslan (39:54):

It is. And here's what happened. I'm at lunch with Stan at Nate N Al’s. So we're there, and the Ironman movies had come out, and the first Spider-Man movies came out and Stan said, you know, Michael, there would be no Marvel cinematic universe if it wasn't for you guys. I said, what are you talking about? He goes, if it wasn't for Batman, 1989. I said, explain. He said, you humanized Batman. The movie was not about Batman, it was about Bruce Wayne. That changed everything. And that was Tim Burton's idea. That was Tim Burton's big idea. That was the game changer. That would change the entire world's perception of comic book superheroes and supervillains. And he said, think about it. The key to opening the door to the Marvel cinematic universe was that our Ironman movies should really be called Tony Stark. Yeah. Our Spider-Man movie totally should really be called Peter Parker.

Kevin Goetz (40:50):

Genius. Genius.

Michael Uslan (40:51):

And that's only based on what was learned from Batman 1989.

Kevin Goetz (40:55):

Absolutely. Makes all the sense in the world.

Michael Uslan (40:56):

Yeah.

Kevin Goetz (40:57):

How did you get Tim Burton?

*Michael Uslan (40:58):

I got a call from Roger Birnbaum. Oh, the best. Yeah. This Batman franchise would not be without Roger. He is one of the secret powers behind this franchise having been given birth. Roger said, I want you to see the fine cut of a movie. I said, fine. So I went over to Warner Brothers, I saw PeeWee's Big Adventure, the fine cut. And he said, what'd you think? I said, I think it is the most creative combination of direction and art direction I've ever seen in my life. He said, well, there's this young animator who's now directing. Anyway, they set up three lunches for me with Tim. And at the first lunch, my job was to indoctrinate him into the world of the dark and serious Batman. And just as importantly, keep him far away from the goofy, corny, crazy stuff. And by the end of the third lunch, I knew this had to be the guy. Thatwas spot on.

Kevin Goetz (41:49):

How did you cast Michael Keaton?

Michael Uslan (41:51):

That was Tim Burton. Why? He worked with him on Beetlejuice. He knew what he was doing on Clean and Sober.

Kevin Goetz (41:57):

Oh, that's why. Because it's in, in his brand. At that time he was just doing comedies.

Michael Uslan (42:05):

Correct. He had been doing comedies.

Kevin Goetz (42:06):

But Clean and Sober hadn't come out yet. Correct. So he sold what he could do as a dramatic actor.

Michael Uslan (42:11):

Yeah. When they first told me that Tim wanted Michael Keaton, I was apoplectic. I said, wait, I've been, I, I've been at this for like seven years.

Kevin Goetz (42:20):

That's what I thought.

*Michael Uslan (42:20):

Uh, for a darkened, serious Batman, and now you want Mr. Mom, you know, as Batman. So they showed me a rough cut of Clean and Sober, and I took it all back and, and it was when Tim Burton explained to everybody that this movie had to be about Bruce Wayne, somebody who's so driven, so obsessed to the point of being psychotic, that the only way to get to avoid unintentional laughs from the audience when they see him getting dressed up as a bat, was to have someone like Michael Keaton instead of a serious quote unquote serious actor of the day. Nor since Jack Nicholson was signed to play the Joker. Nor could you have an unknown play Batman to Nicholson. Nicholson would wipe the screen with the guy.

Kevin Goetz (43:01):

That was genius casting, by the way. Oh my Lord.

Michael Uslan (43:03):

You know that story, right?

Kevin Goetz (43:04):

No.

Michael Uslan (43:05):

Oh my God.

Kevin Goetz (43:05):

I just know there was a lot of money involved.

*Michael Uslan (43:08):

All right. Let's go back to Ground zero. May, 1980. It's Memorial Weekend. Talk about coincidence. I'm leaving my job at UA. I get on the bus going back to New Jersey. I get the afternoon paper. It's The Post. I open it up to the movie section. What are the holiday movies that are opening up? There's one called The Empire Strikes Back, and another one's a horror movie called The Shining. And as I turn the page, Kevin, there's this maniacal-looking picture of Jack Nicholson peering around a doorway. It's now the Iconic, Here's Johnny's shot. I go, oh my bleeping God. This is the only actor who can play the Joker. I tore that picture outta the newspaper. I get home, I run to my desk, I take white out, and I white out Jack's face. I took a red pen and did his lips. I took a green magic marker. I did his hair. I went back and I showed everybody involved. Jack Nicholson is the only actor, look who can play the Joker. That was my dream.

Kevin Goetz (44:10):

Oh God.

Michael Uslan (44:11):

Now I saved that picture. I never throw out anything. It's in my book.

Kevin Goetz (44:15):

He lives across the street from me.

Michael Uslan (44:16):

Oh, does he really?

Kevin Goetz (44:17):

Jack does.

Michael Uslan (44:18):

And he's from my neighborhood in Jersey.

Kevin Goetz (44:19):

He is?

Michael Uslan (44:20):

Yeah. Yeah. He went to Manasquan high school.

Kevin Goetz (44:23):

You are kidding me.

Michael Uslan (44:23):

No. Grew up like on Neptune. He used to hang out at the Osprey. Did you ever go to the Osprey bar?

Kevin Goetz (44:27):

No, but the Stone Pony.

Michael Uslan (44:31):

We can do a whole talk on that one.

Kevin Goetz (44:31):

We're actually doing well because we're bringing this sort of full circle. You did end up paying back your investors, by the way, in that first movie. Did you not?

Michael Uslan (44:39):

Yes.

Kevin Goetz (44:39):

How much did they make on their investment percentage-wise?

Michael Uslan (44:41):

They did fine. They did fine.

Kevin Goetz (44:43):

You took care of them.

Michael Uslan (44:44):

The Batman took care of them.

Kevin Goetz (44:46):

Beautiful. Before we break, what is something that nobody knows about you? You've done so many interviews. Tell me something that no one's asked you before.

Michael Uslan (44:58):

I fell in love with the first girl I set eyes on in college on day one. Oh. And all I heard for four years. What was hername? Nancy. I'm joking. <laugh>?

Kevin Goetz (45:10):

No, her name was Jill. St. John.

Michael Uslan (45:12):

Yeah. Right. <laugh>. Actually, Nancy should give some credit to Jill St. John again.

Kevin Goetz (45:18):

Tell me about Nancy.

Michael Uslan (45:19):

So she wasn't even unpacked when we went out for the first time. And all we heard was you don't fall in love with the first person you see in college. It doesn't happen. So we are closing in right now on our 52nd anniversary. 

Kevin Goetz (45:36):

Oh my God. Mazeltov. Thank you. So again, heading into the last minutes of this interview, I wanna ask you about a significant mistake that you made sometime in your career that you really learned from, turned out to be a great life lesson.

Michael Uslan (45:55):

Due to my very nature, my tendency is always to believe somebody. And my tendency is always to give them the benefit of the doubt. I got severely burned by that early on.

Kevin Goetz (46:07):

Three times you said?

Michael Uslan (46:08):

Yeah. It turned out to be three times I should have learned from the first time, but years later, I made the same mistake and years later I made the final same mistake.

Kevin Goetz (46:21):

Trusting wrong people.

Michael Uslan (46:22):

Yeah. And believing them when they said something and assuming it was true.

Kevin Goetz (46:27):

In retrospect, what did you learn from it? And what would you have done differently?

*Michael Uslan (46:31):

One of the great things about getting older is A, the amount of self-confidence that you build from your experiences. You know, for many, many years now, I have not had butterflies in my stomach because I either know how to handle a situation or if a problem arises or who to call. Also, as you get older, you lose part of your filter. And I've learned A, I don't have to be liked by everyone. And the most liberating thing I've learned is it's absolutely fine to say no.

Kevin Goetz (47:07):

Well, you learned that obviously early on.

Michael Uslan (47:09):

Yes. And these are the things that are part of life's lessons, and for me, the only way I could learn it was through some hard experience.

Kevin Goetz (47:19):

Okay, but you said you made the same mistake. Yeah. So what would you have done differently? Was it have paper?

Michael Uslan (47:26):

A, I would have, even though at those moments in time I couldn't afford lawyers, I would've brought in lawyers because it's too expensive not to as opposed to bringing them in. B, I've learned this thing called due diligence where you've to do your homework and you've got to really learn who you're dealing with.

Speaker 5 (47:51):

Mm.

Michael Uslan (47:52):

The basic business tenets. I did not go to business school. Nobody taught me these things. I was left to learn them the harder way.

Kevin Goetz (48:00):

Life lessons on the street.

Michael Uslan (48:01):

Yeah.

Kevin Goetz (48:03):

You told me at lunch not too long ago that you got screwed over pretty badly by somebody or some company, and you decided not to go after them.

Speaker 5 (48:17):

Yeah.

Kevin Goetz (48:19):

And I just thought that was a terrific lesson. Most people are like, sue those mother effers. Mm-hmm <affirmative>. Or whatever. And because of your life experience, you've probably realized, you know what? Life's too damn short without getting too specific or you feel free to get specific. But I don't wanna put you on the spot. Tell me about that.

*Michael Uslan (48:40):

Yeah. At that point in time, we were dealing with a very, very wealthy businessman in New York. And I had created a primetime TV series that I wanted to do, and he was interested in committing to back us on it. And instead, what ultimately happened was he did an end run around us and took the ball and my ball and ran with it. And I was in shock. I mean, I just couldn't believe this happened, that anybody would do that or why they would do that. And my partner, Ben, who was my dad's age, and very sage. Ben, said, Michael, I know you wanna sue him, but this is a very wealthy, powerful person who has 20 lawyers working for him every day, controls a lot of law firms in all the major cities. If we are to sue him, which he said I'm willing to do, it'll be five years before we get to court.

(49:49):

It will cost well over a million dollars in legal fees and expenses, but worse, it's going to eat you up emotionally. It's gonna eat up your time. It's gonna divert you from doing new things with your time and your brain and your spirit. So my advice is, you're a young enough man, learn from this and let's move on and concentrate only on new things. And he was absolutely right about it. He was also the one, Ben, who told me, at your worst moments, at your lowest moments, when everything is going bad, when everything's collapsing, he said, you have to say quote, this is the greatest thing that could have happened to me because and then you have to fill in the blank.

Kevin Goetz (50:40):

Mm-hmm <affirmative>.

Michael Uslan (50:40):

I said, ah, come on, Ben. He goes, you need to fill in the blank.

Kevin Goetz (50:43):

I just asked the question not five minutes ago. I said, what was the mistake? What did you learn from it? Because everything has to have a reason for being, or it was in vain, right?

*Michael Uslan (50:56):

When I was at the lowest point of my Batman career at the time of movies, Batman and Robin and Catwoman, and I was at my lowest point. Ben said, do it, Michael, you gotta do it. I said, okay. This is the greatest thing that could have happened to me because the studio's gonna get burned by this, and next time they're gonna wanna do it the way I always wanna do it, which is the dark and serious Batman. So like the Phoenix rising in the ashes of these movies that upset me as a true blue Batman guy comes the genius of Christopher Nolan and the Dark Knight Trilogy.

Kevin Goetz (51:38):

Wow. Michael, I can't thank you enough for being here, for sharing your stories and for being such a mensch and a hamish man. It's a privilege and honor to know you.

Michael Uslan (51:53):

Kevin. Thank you so much. As you know, the first time we met, it felt like we were talking for six seconds, but it was probably like six hours. We have a commonality. We have a bond that has been incredible in so many different ways.

Kevin Goetz (52:09):

Honestly, I think it's a decency. I think it's the fact that we have conviction and we share passion. I think that that's what it is, and I am moved by it. Same here, my friend. Thanks so much. Thank you.

(52:25):

To our listeners, I hope you enjoyed our interview today. I encourage you to check out all of the Batman and Batman-related movies in the universe discussed here today. For more filmmaking and audience testing stories, I invite you to check out my book, AudienceOlogy at Amazon or through my website at KevinGoetz360.com. You can also follow me on my social media. Next time on Don't Kill the Messenger, I am very excited to bring you a special episode all about the art of the focus group. Until then, I'm Kevin Goetz, and to you, our listeners, I appreciate you being part of the movie-making process. Your opinions matter.

Host: Kevin Goetz
Guest: Michael Uslan
Producer: Kari Campano
Writers: Kevin Goetz, Darlene Hayman, and Kari Campano
Audio Engineer: Gary Forbes (DG Entertainment)