Podcast: Don't Kill the Messenger with Movie Research Expert Kevin Goetz
Guest: Focus Group Moderators Terri Cavanaugh, Ari Virgil-Paige, and Aaron Feuer

Interview Transcript:

Announcer (00:03):

From script to screen, every film is brought to life by visionary creatives and executives, all sharing one mission – to captivate the audience. Hosted by award-winning movie strategist, Kevin Goetz, our podcast, Don't Kill The Messenger, offers a filmmaking masterclass through intimate conversations with Hollywood's most influential voices. And now, your host, Kevin Goetz.

Kevin Goetz (00:29):

For those who haven't been part of a focus group following an audience test screening, let's paint the picture. So the movie ends, and survey devices are handed out, the room becomes quiet. After completing their surveys, the audience gradually leaves the theater, and then we're left with 20 focus group participants who've come down to the first two rows. The filmmakers and studio executives sit behind the respondents, scattered in seats. The moderator steps up to the front and the deeper work begins. I am very excited to bring you a special episode today, all about the art of the focus group. My guests are three of my top moderators who work at Screen Engine ASI. These three are some of the best moderators that I know. Please welcome Ari Virgil-Paige, Executive Vice President of the Movie Group, Terri Cavanaugh, Vice President of Qualitative Insights, and Aaron Feuer, Vice President of the Movie Group. Guys, thanks so much for being here.

Ari Virgil-Paige (01:32):

Thank you. Thanks for having us.

Kevin Goetz (01:34):

Oh boy. Three people. I've never had three people on this program. <laugh> two is hard enough. Why are focus groups important? Ari?

*Ari Virgil-Paige (01:43):

There's no substitute for hearing it directly from your audience. It adds a layer of nuance that I think you can only get from interacting with folks, and it adds context to the other pieces of the research, the quantitative data that's also being laid on top of it. Terri, what can you add to that?

*Terri Cavanaugh (02:02):

There's something about getting to hear how people describe things or how they're saying it that takes it beyond just what they write. For instance, we'll say how many like the end overall. And a hands either go up right away, which means great, or they go, eh. So where they might say they liked it overall on the survey, when you see that hand go up halfway, you know, intuitively there's a hold back. Aaron, you want to add to that?

*Aaron Feuer (02:28):

Sure. I mean, you two have put it very eloquently there, <laugh>, but I can't wait until it gets to me as like, here we get what I just say. Well, I was gonna say, what I think that is so magical about a group is that first question. Can you give me a word or phrase to describe what you just saw? Because what the audience gives you in that top of mind thought, it's what the catalyst to the whole conversation is gonna be. And you can uncover things right there from those first few moments with a focus group. And I've always found that fascinating because by the time you get to the end of it, it circles back to what was said right at the start.

Kevin Goetz (03:06):

What's your background, Aaron <laugh>? For the listeners on this program, I know their backgrounds intimately <laugh>, but you don't. So I'm gonna have them tell you in a very abbreviated way who they are.

Aaron Feuer (03:19):

Sure. Born and raised in Chicago, still a Chicago boy at heart. Studied at Northern Illinois University at the acting school. Got a BFA in acting, led by one of my mentors, which we share in common. And Terri and I share in common, Kathryn Gately. Moved to Los Angeles in 2007 right after school. And all I knew, even though I came here as an actor, I was fortunate enough to have an agent fortunate enough to go on many auditions. When I first moved here, all I knew is I wanted to work within the entertainment industry some way somehow. And so what started for me was, well, I needed a part-time job and I found OTX, a research company where I was handing out non-disclosure agreements, filling out focus group reports and cutting my teeth, watching Kevin in focus groups. At the same time I was doing that, I was fortunate enough to work with producers in Hollywood, a mentor of mine, Michael Uslan, who's taught me so much of the creative side of this industry.

(04:22):

I learned about the comic book aspects of film and television, and I saw so many different perspectives. Well then we fast forward to Screen Engine and when Screen Engine came about, there was an opportunity for me to blend all of these various things that I had learned into a new job, into a new world, a world that I didn't expect that I would necessarily be in. And then I found a love and a passion for it. And that passion is the audience. That's what I fell in love with. The idea of connecting with an audience, working with filmmakers, producers, executives, and being able to help craft films in one way, shape, or form. Ari?

Ari Virgil-Paige (05:07):

Born and raised in Philadelphia. Go Birds. Proud…

Kevin Goetz (05:10):

Hey, that was Erik Lomis’ favorite team. Call out to Eric, who passed away a couple of years ago, and he was the most intense Eagles fan I have ever met. <laugh> And my father abhorred your team. Go ahead.

Ari Virgil-Paige (05:22):

That's okay. Nobody likes us except for us, and we're okay with it. But <laugh>, born and raised in Philly, got my degree from Temple University in film.

Kevin Goetz (05:31):

Any particular area of film?

Ari Virgil-Paige (05:33):

Film and media arts. It was just sort of like a generalized degree under the school of communications. And so I was never a person who knew exactly what they wanted to be when they grew up, but I've always loved movies. I grew up sort of analyzing movies on my own and people would say, well, what do you wanna do? I'd say, well, I wanna just talk about movies. And people go, oh, you wanna be a critic? I go, well, no, I just wanna talk about movies. And I had no idea that that was a job or a thing. I was just sort of saying what I earnestly wanted to do. And so fast forward through Temple. I came to California for an internship program. I was here for about a month. And at that point I had graduated and had to decide, well, where do I wanna start my career? So I said, let me try LA. I had some family here and I honestly hated it, but eventually found my way to screenings, work similar to Aaron. And then over time was fortunate enough to get the opportunity to moderate and finally was able to just talk about movies in ways that I always had wanted to. 

Kevin Goetz (06:33):

But that is so incredible. No idea. I find, don't you all? Mm-hmm <affirmative>. Yeah. That she had that desire early on. Yeah. And then found it. Ari, what makes a great moderator?

*Ari Virgil-Paige (06:39):

I think a great moderator has to be curious. I am naturally a curious person. I love a good who done it. I love a good quirky detective. Mm-hmm <affirmative>. And so I feel like when I moderate, I get to sort of put on that hat. I'm on my own sort of discovery journey on behalf of of course, the filmmakers. But even for myself, I'm personally curious and what the audience has to say. And I think that's part of it.

Kevin Goetz (07:02):

Part of the reason I plucked you outta the chorus, if you will, and I'll talk about like an old MGM musical <laugh> was because you were highly bright, but also could communicate those thoughts in a very cogent way. And also people like talking to you. Mm-hmm <affirmative>. That's a gift. Terri, where are you from? Tell me everything about Terri <laugh>.

Ari Virgil-Paige (07:28):

This is the first time they're meeting.

Kevin Goetz (07:30):

Yeah, The very first time.

Terri Cavanaugh (07:30):

Kevin and I go way, way, way back. How far back? Terri? We went to college together. Yeah. I'm from actually all over. My dad was a nuclear engineer, so he had a certain security clearance. So rather than give other guys this high clearance, they just picked our family up and moved all around.

Kevin Goetz (07:47):

How did Joanne feel about that?

Terri Cavanaugh (07:48):

You know what?

Kevin Goetz (07:49):

That's her mother.

Terri Cavanaugh (07:49):

With my mother, God rest her soul with five kids. She just went where the money was. She was like, let's go. We gotta feed these kids. So the only reason I bring that up is because it really enabled me to learn how to talk to people, ask people questions immediately. Intuit the situation I was in, because I moved so often, I was having a new set of friends all the time, plus all over the country. So I got a real feel right all over the place. So yeah, I got my undergraduate degree in speech and theater at the University of Tennessee and got my graduate degree at Rutgers University, Mason Grove School of the Arts. With you, Mr. 

Kevin Goetz (08:26):

Well, Terri, you are a phenomenal actress and you were the first person I chose to follow in my footsteps. And part of the reason I did that is because of the depth of your talent, you could understand a character so well and be able to peel away some of those layers that makes the digging into what makes a character interesting so brilliantly. And I felt like you could also teach it. Well, that was my impetus. And what do you think makes a great moderator?

*Terri Cavanaugh (09:00):

Intuition. You can't teach it. You're born with it. 

Kevin Goetz (09:04):

And I think I would agree with that. Would you all agree with this completely?

Ari Virgil-Paige (09:06):

Yeah. I think a lot of people can moderate well, but yeah, to be a great moderator, you sort of have to have the gene.

Aaron Feuer (09:12):

Yeah.

*Terri Cavanaugh (09:12):

Yeah. And I think you always talked about that. You said to me once, I think actors make the best moderators because of their ability to tear a script apart, which I adore. You know how much I love that. So tearing it apart, being able to read the room, being able to multitask, you know, you have several layers out of the corner of your eye. You're watching the clients in the back, you're watching to see what happens. If anybody is talking on the side, you're sensing if they're getting uncomfortable, you're sensing if you gotta move on, you're sensing if somebody said something that everybody agrees with, then you gotta zero in. It's multitasking.

Kevin Goetz (09:49):

In the beginning of our relationship as moderator and moderator in training, you weren't always successful outta the gate.

Terri Cavanaugh (09:57):

That's correct.

Kevin Goetz (09:58):

And there was a turning point. Tell us about that.

Terri Cavanaugh (10:01):

The turning point came, I think I didn't quite understand how to find myself, and I was not being true to myself. So I think I was trying to copy you and emulate you. And the truth is, you're a male moderator. I'm a female moderator. You handle things differently than I would handle things. Therefore, it didn't ring true when I was running the group. So once I said, stop, you have gifts, you know what you're doing, he chose you for a reason. You know how to tear something apart, get in there and be yourself. And it literally flipped overnight.

Kevin Goetz (10:38):

It really did.

Terri Cavanaugh (10:38):

It flipped overnight and it skyrocketed.

Kevin Goetz (10:40):

And I wanna just say a call out to many of our other moderators, most notably Jana Van Kirk, who I only have three seats on this couch, <laugh>, so how many others am I going to invite? But people like Brent Lowe and Roger Edwards and our television moderators, Kelly Fox and Jody Clancy, and Jamie Chasalow, John Cato, Monique Madara.

Terri Cavanaugh (11:05):

And Dr. Ines Poza and Cindy Smith, who's new to our bench.

Kevin Goetz (11:09):

I mean, these are people who step in and have their own voices that add a particular alchemy to make a great focus group. And you nor I are right for every piece of material.

Kevin Goetz (11:25):

<affirmative>. To same as you guys. Aaron, what do you think makes a great moderator?

Aaron Feuer (11:29):

Listening and interpreting. We have this gift that we can talk to an audience. We are talking to various different demographics of audiences. On any various day, you could be doing three different types of audience segments in one day. Mm-hmm <affirmative>.

Terri Cavanaugh (11:41):

Mm-hmm <affirmative>.

*Aaron Feuer (11:42):

And the idea of truly listening and hearing what they're saying, but then being able to explain to others what that audience is telling you. Right. 'cause hear a lot of things in a focus group. And so this idea of that we have the gift of listening. And to what Terri said, and I do think this helps us with the theatrical background. When I was on stage, even if you couldn't see the audience out there, you could feel the audience, you could feel what they were giving you. And a focus group does just that. But it's not just the focus group. It's, let's call it the audience, your executives behind the window. Right? The folks who are sitting behind the glass, the folks who are sitting behind the audience, picking up on their cues. Well, it's the same thing we did on stage. It's the same thing I did at Second City, when you could see the audience and you would feel what they were giving you in that moment, and then interpret and listen and pivot.

*Kevin Goetz (12:34):

Well, you, the three of us, yeah, Terri, Aaron, and myself are all actors. Mm-hmm <affirmative>. And Ari came from a different language, a film production language. And I have to say that when I started producing movies and I made now 13 of them, I began to understand the movie language. Mm-hmm <affirmative>. And the movie language, coupled with the instincts, intuition, curiosity of an artist, an actor, was to me the perfect balance. And that's what I saw in each of you. I'd like to move on to the actual craft of what we do and what do you find, Terri, is the most important question that you can ask? If you were only given one question to ask in a focus group, what would it be?

*Terri Cavanaugh (13:24):

My job is always to get the best information possible to help the film realize the best possible version of itself. So I think I would say, if you could add or take away anything to this movie that would bring your engagement even deeper or cause you to love this film any more, what would that one thing be?

Kevin Goetz (13:56):

Beautiful. Ari?

Ari Virgil-Paige (13:58):

I think I have to give a politician sort of non-answer answer. And that I think it earnestly depends because my number one job is to get the most important piece of information, as Terri is saying. But what that information is changes title to title changes based on where they are in the testing process, changes based on the objectives of that particular focus group's mission. And so I think my most important question is the question that is most important to the client.

Kevin Goetz (14:26):

Hmm. Often the clients are at odds with what the most important question is.

Ari Virgil-Paige (14:31):

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm <affirmative>.

Kevin Goetz (14:32):

The filmmaker and the studio head. Who do you defer to?

Ari Virgil-Paige (14:36):

I defer to the truth because at the end of the day, they're,

Kevin Goetz (14:39):

I'm not getting letting her get away with this political answer.

Ari Virgil-Paige (14:41):

<laugh>. Yeah. No. No meaning

Kevin Goetz (14:43):

No, no. They do. But I said, you can only ask one question.

Ari Virgil-Paige (14:46):

Yeah. But,

Kevin Goetz (14:47):

And so now you have a filmmaker wanting one thing.

Ari Virgil-Paige (14:49):

Yeah.

Kevin Goetz (14:49):

And the studio one, the other, what do you ask?

Ari Virgil-Paige (14:51):

I think I have to get at

Kevin Goetz (14:53):

Oh, I'm good. Huh?

Ari Virgil-Paige (14:54):

I have to. You are good. You're good. But we're good too. That's why we're here. I think part of what, again, their questions are in an effort to get the truth they want. Right? They want an answer, but I want the answer. So I have to get the answer. And my question may answer both of those groups. If, if someone goes, I really wanna know what they think about the ending, and someone goes, I really wanna know if they're satisfied, those are likely the same question. So what is the spirit of the question? What is the spirit of the answer that they're trying to get at? And that's the most important thing.

*Aaron Feuer (15:27):

Yeah. Aaron, what about you? Every screening we go into, it's what is your objective? Every screening is different. Right. But I find that I will go in thinking before seeing that film, I know what the objective is, and then I watch the movie with the audience for the first time. And well, if they're confused, I'm confused, typically. Right? If they have questions, I have questions. It's part of the journey of watching it for the first time with an audience. I love that feeling because we're audience members too. We're asking the same questions. So it's always a delicate question, and it's always one that we have to answer. But what's truly holding you back from enjoying it that much more?

Kevin Goetz (16:08):

I think that's the most important question to ask if you're not rating this movie. Excellent.

Aaron Feuer (16:12):

Yes. Yep.

Kevin Goetz (16:13):

You're giving it a very good, why not? Excellent. If you're giving it a good, why not? Very good.

Aaron Feuer (16:16):

Yep.

Kevin Goetz (16:17):

The excellents are pretty much converted already. Yeah. They're there.

Aaron Feuer (16:21):

Mm-hmm <affirmative>.

Kevin Goetz (16:22):

So really the, what you can be most helpful offering is what is the hesitation.

Aaron Feuer (16:28):

That's right.

Kevin Goetz (16:29):

Terri, by the way, that you remember as an actor, we approach a scene with an objective.

Terri Cavanaugh (16:36):

Yes, yes,

Kevin Goetz (16:36):

Yes. I, what you said was, I think I instilled in you, which was the last thing you ask yourself is, my objective in this scene is if I don't get every ounce of information for my clients, I have failed in this scene. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah. So that is your objective, to get every ounce of information, everything that I can possibly get in a 30-minute period.

Terri Cavanaugh (17:02):

Yeah. That was paramount. And you reminded me that this like act, it's the same thing. You have your objective and then you go for it, and you don't waiver. Because if you don't get that, if you don't get there, you have failed. And I think if I hadn't been an actor, I probably would've been a forensic anthropologist 'cause I love to do that crap.

Kevin Goetz (17:25):

There's so much at stake in these screenings. Yeah, yeah. People don't understand Uhhuh. People say, we're not curing cancer, but for that night, we're curing the movie and the movie is their child.

Terri Cavanaugh (17:36):

Yes.

Kevin Goetz (17:36):

And so I always equate it to the stakes are so high.

Terri Cavanaugh (17:40):

Yes.

Kevin Goetz (17:41):

And it's really a moment of reckoning. Yeah. And there's no excuses to be made because our audience is coming in just to like the movie, aren't they? Mm-hmm <affirmative>. They know agenda. They wanna like it.

Terri Cavanaugh (17:50):

Yeah.

Kevin Goetz (17:51):

They wanna like it.

Terri Cavanaugh (17:51):

Yeah. I try to always tell people that I say, you don't understand, we love movies. We want to see every movie succeed. A hundred percent. And we don't come in to look at something to Ari's point about people saying, oh, you wanna be a critic? No.

Kevin Goetz (18:08):

 Aaron, why do you think the naysayers who exist are naysayers?

*Aaron Feuer (18:11):

Well, from a creative process, you go in, you've been working 5, 6, 7 years, and then you're gonna present your baby to an audience, to an executive group. And then there are a lot of opinions coming that you have not been having to deal with. And so the idea that somebody else is going to tell you what to do with your work, but my answer to that is, well, I'm not telling you, your audience, who did you make this for? You made it for somebody. It's possible you made it just for yourself, but unlikely. 

Kevin Goetz (18:48):

But let me counter that, which is and Ari, you answer this part. Yeah. But you seem to have an agenda.

Ari Virgil-Paige (18:54):

I have zero agenda. I'm like the conduit. To Aaron's point to the audience.

Kevin Goetz (18:59):

That question alone about pace is making them think about pace. Answer that.

Ari Virgil-Paige (19:03):

Well, I would say two things. You had the screening because you wanted to ask your audience and…

Kevin Goetz (19:09):

How it landed.

*Ari Virgil-Paige (19:10):

Right. Or just in general, what they thought. Right. And so don't ask a question. You're not ready for the answer to, if you're actually here to get the truth, you have to be ready for what the truth is. And I think naysayers to your original point, like research is a tool, right? Mm-hmm <affirmative>. I can use a hammer to build, or I can use a hammer to break. And part of it is what is your perspective coming in? Yes. Do you see research as a productive process, or are you coming in seeing it as something that's meant to destroy or meant to derail? We're not here to stand in the way of the creative process. We're here to support it. If they're confused, whatever creative message you're trying to get across didn't land. You wanna know that well before it gets to everybody and there's nothing you can do about it.

Kevin Goetz (19:54):

I think people have been so beat up, up to the point of getting to that screening. They have a distrust with other people wanting a certain agenda. And so we are just part of that after effect.

Ari Virgil-Paige (20:06):

Yeah.

*Kevin Goetz (20:07):

Of other people who are just shitting on me, or other people who are just coming after me, when in fact, I try to always say exactly what you said, Ari, which is, we're just there to be advocates for the audience, like the voice of the voiceless. Mm-hmm <affirmative>. We are giving them a place to say what they feel and think and what do they care whether it's successful or has a good opening, or they just wanna like it.

Ari Virgil-Paige (20:34):

Also, do you wanna hear about it in the focus group when you have time to fix it? Or do you want to hear about it on TikTok when they're using it to tear it apart and drag down your Rotten Tomatoes score? The comment will still exist. The feeling will still exist. Every person in that theater, every comment we receive represents someone else not in the theater. Our job is to sort of diagnose how many people does that represent. But just because you refuse to hear the answer or you don't wanna ask the question, doesn't mean the answer doesn't exist. Just means you're gonna get it too late to do anything about it. Yeah.

Kevin Goetz (21:05):

When I recently did Matt Belloni, I was asked if I've ever gotten into fights or any kind of real confrontations. Mm-hmm <affirmative>. And I said, people have gotten in my face before because it's so personal. Yeah, yeah, yeah. For them and to them.

*Terri Cavanaugh (21:20):

Oh yeah. You said something once that has resonated with me for the entirety of my career so far. And you said, look, Terr, at the end of the day, it's information gathering. It's not done with a point of view in any way that's meant to hurt. And when you say to the client, look, this is information. You take it as you will, put it through your creative filter. And to Ari's point, if your message isn't landing creatively, you gotta find another way to get that in that does land. But this is not with a negative point of view.

Kevin Goetz (21:51):

When I was plucked out of the chorus at 25 years old.

Terri Cavanaugh (21:54):

Yeah.

Kevin Goetz (21:54):

NRG, uh, by Joe Farrell and Catherine Paura, I knew nothing about this business. In fact, the last thing I said was I was playing a focus group moderator. Oh, you know.

Terri Cavanaugh (22:03):

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Kevin Goetz (22:05):

So I would actually take the role on, 'cause I knew how to do that. I didn't know what a one-sheet was. I didn't know what tracking was. I didn't know what sort of the overarching reason of why I was asking these questions. Mm-hmm <affirmative>. But I was asking them and just getting the information, you come to realize that it could be very easy to lead a group. And I think part of the criticism is that the perception and the care and the art of what we do, going back to the theme of this podcast today, the art of the focus group. Aaron, tell me about, have you been in a situation where you felt, oh, that might've been a leading question, or the client has accused you of leading or something like that. Can you share something?

Aaron Feuer (22:46):

I have gone through that experience a handful of times now. Not that many, thankfully, but a handful where we are just there doing our job. We are there asking the questions, questions that have to be asked. Right? What's not resonating with the relationship? But a filmmaker did not want that question asked, but the question needed to be asked because the audience brought it up. The audience is asking questions. And so we then have to follow them, right? We have to follow what your audience is giving you in that focus group. And if the audience has a problem with the relationship, it is our job to understand and get under the hood of that, even if the filmmaker isn't gonna be happy with you at the end. And I have been in that position where you walk out of a focus group and you get taken over the coals and you just have to take it.

(23:36):

And fortunately, one thing that is different for me that I would say in terms of my moderating path is for years at Screen Engine, I was lead screening supervisor. And for years I had interactions with filmmakers, with studio heads, intense moments, right? There's always one that sticks out. You were with me, Kevin, where a filmmaker was very upset and took me into a corner and was screaming at me all about the location of their seat in the theater. And I remember stepping up to the plate with that filmmaker and saying, Hey, this is what your editorial team needed. This is where we were. I will do everything we can to handle this. I stood up for myself, I explained why we were doing what we were doing. And so that gave me strength. I would say over the years of dealing with all those intense conversations, that's one example, right? There are many. But that then gave me the strength to then deal with it as a moderator. And God knows I've called you Kevin, going, what did I do? I just walked out of a focus group. Tears. Right? The tears, you know, sometimes you are. However, I go back and I'll listen to the focus group and go, what did I do? What can I do differently? Right.

Kevin Goetz (24:48):

And I've talked you off the ledge a number of times for sure. And all of you, because there are criticisms. And you know, it's funny, there are times that I continue to bring a coach into my life. I've done it for all of you.

Terri Cavanaugh (25:01):

Yeah.

Kevin Goetz (25:02):

And I'm actually being coached right now. I hired an executive coach just to better myself and continue to be at the top of my game. Mm-hmm <affirmative>. I don't wanna sit on my laurels and just pretend that everyone's just gonna go along with what I say. I want to improve my technique.

Terri Cavanaugh (25:19):

Mm-hmm <affirmative>.

Kevin Goetz (25:20):

And myself as a human, as a man, as a professional, which will then be able to make me more effective as a moderator. Yep.

Kevin Goetz (25:27):

<affirmative>. When we come back, we are gonna continue with our conversation with these absolutely wonderful professionals, these focus group moderators. We'll be back in a moment. If you are curious about how movies actually turn a profit, I've got something for you. My upcoming book, How to Score in Hollywood, dives into the intersection of creative instinct and audience insight, and where the business of film meets the art of storytelling. The book is available for pre-order now on your favorite bookseller platform. I'm also putting together a book launch team, and I'd love for you to be a part of it. We're looking for people to help spread the word ahead of our November release, and also to leave a short book review after its release. In exchange, you'll get early access to the book, exclusive behind-the-scenes content, and more. Sign up to join my launch team or for book updates at KevinGoetz360.com. And as always, thank you for your support. And we're back with Aaron Feuer, Terri Cavanaugh, and Ari Virgil-Paige, three of my moderators at Screen Engine. What happens when you have a disruptive or unruly respondent in your focus group? I mean, I always say you're only as good as the people who you're speaking to or in your group. Mm-hmm <affirmative>. Garbage in, garbage out is the old market research term for sample that has less than great research hygiene.

Terri Cavanaugh (26:56):

Mm-hmm <affirmative>.

Kevin Goetz (26:58):

Terri, what do you do?

*Terri Cavanaugh (26:59):

Well, thank God you were instrumental in helping me with this because early on I thought, what the hell? You said, Terri, you walk to the other side, you make it very clear with your body language that this conversation is not going to continue. You can say, that's really great, thanks. But I've heard a lot from you. Now I'm gonna move on to these other folks.

Kevin Goetz (27:20):

Have you ever kicked anyone out of a group?

Terri Cavanaugh (27:22):

No, I haven't ever kicked anyone out. I have silenced them by saying, you know what? That is so not helpful. What is not working for you in that moment? Can you tell me?

Kevin Goetz (27:31):

I've actually kicked a couple of people out after before.

Terri Cavanaugh (27:33):

Yeah. I remember I was actually observing once when you had to kick someone out.

Kevin Goetz (27:36):

I think it was a qualifier that they didn't qualify. And so they were casting judgment on something. Mm. Yeah. It was in a, you know, behind glass in one of the focus groups behind two-way mirrors when you're talking about advertising materials. And they said something, they said, well, have you seen blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And they somehow got through the screening process.

Kevin Goetz (27:55):

So they were like asked to leave. I've also done things where I used to have someone in a room with me always to run the tech stuff. Mm-hmm

Terri Cavanaugh (28:02):

<affirmative>. Mm-hmm <affirmative>.

Kevin Goetz (28:02):

In the old days when it wasn't digital. I would send you a note and say, pretend this person has a phone call. You'd go outside and then the head of the facility would come in and say, Jimmy, can I see you for a moment? Please.

Terri Cavanaugh (28:14):

Oh my gosh. That's great.

Kevin Goetz (28:15):

And they would say, oh, phone call. Oh, okay. And then they would not come back.

Kevin Goetz (28:20):

And we'd pay them and they'd go on their merry way.

Ari Virgil-Paige (28:22):

Yeah.

Kevin Goetz (28:23):

Ari, have you ever had that situation?

Ari Virgil-Paige (28:24):

Not in person. I know we've talked mostly about the screening focus group process, but I do a lot of focus groups also online. So I've had a few instances where online I had to mute people. Mm-hmm <affirmative>. Or maybe remove them and blame it on a technical issue. And sometimes it is legitimately tech problem. Sometimes not. I think I will say we have like the best focus group pollers. I think I've been very fortunate. It's rarely an issue.

Kevin Goetz (28:48):

And by the way, you all started as focus group coordinators, better known as focus group pollers. Yep. Which really gives you a great education as to picking good respondents.

Ari Virgil-Paige (28:58):

Yes, it does. Yeah. Yeah. Yes it does. And I think even when you have to shut people down, to Terri's point, there are ways you can do it. So let's say it's someone who's really stuck on a point, right? They keep bringing it back to the same comment. Sometimes I'll say, thank you so much. I'm clear on your comments here. Mm-hmm <affirmative>. I wanna move on though and talk about some other items just for the sake of time. Right? Yeah. Because especially in a screening environment, we have 25, 30 minutes. And when you think about having to hear from 20 people to go through, we have a moderator's guide that has a dozen or more questions on it. That's a lot to have to get through. So generally, I try to tie it back to time or really just equity within the group.

Kevin Goetz (29:36):

It's about monopolizing. Mm-hmm

Ari Virgil-Paige (29:38):

<affirmative>. Yeah.

Kevin Goetz (29:38):

You don't want ever a person to monopolize a group, No experts. No, because you are the pilot, you are the captain. Mm-hmm <affirmative>. And it's very important that you maintain that authority. One of the things that you all have the ability, and I know I've been told that I've had the ability as well, is that we can engage very quickly to make people want to talk to us.

Ari Virgil-Paige (30:00):

Yeah.

Kevin Goetz (30:01):

And trust us.

Ari Virgil-Paige (30:02):

Yeah.

Kevin Goetz (30:03):

So if you notice there's time when I will use profanity. Mm-hmm <affirmative>. There's times when I, which not doesn't work for say Terri. Right. But it works for me because it humanizes me and allows them the opportunity to feel, oh, I could say anything here. I'm not gonna be penalized for it. Do you all have techniques like that? Aaron? Do you?

*Aaron Feuer (30:22):

One of the things that I've been really fortunate in the handful of years I've been doing this, which is I get to work a lot of family events, family screenings and work with kids. And kids can be, you get the really shy ones, they might be very talkative and then all of a sudden they get really shy right before focus group starts. And so having the ability to sort of read what the kid needs in that moment, I actually just had a moment where an adorable young boy, he said he wouldn't wanna, he couldn't answer the question. He got so nervous. He got so nervous. I came back to him a few times, didn't wanna speak. And I said, you know what, you and I are gonna have our own focus group at the end, and I wanna hear what you have to say. 

(31:02):

And I gave that kid the moment to breathe and not feel concerned. And by the end of that focus group, that kid raised their hand very proudly and wanted to say the thing that they had thought about from the very beginning. And it was helpful. The kid had a great thing to say. And so the idea of giving that moment, again, I'm talking about a family screening now, but whoever it is, giving that audience member the moment to think, treat them with respect, the same respect that I would wanna be treated in that moment. You're just in a conversation. I don't want you to feel uncomfortable. Now, if you're being a jerk, that's a different conversation, <laugh>. Yeah. Right. If you're being a jerk, I am gonna look at you like, you know what, that's for a different conversation.

Kevin Goetz (31:41):

Terri, let me ask you, what was your worst focus group? The the one that sticks in your mind, and why was it? So,

*Terri Cavanaugh (31:49):

It was a horror film, and it was very early. And horror fans are very opinionated. And there's also divisions within the horror genre. And there was a very outspoken guy who sat smack in the middle, but a position of power. My intuition told me, and I didn't listen to it, that he was gonna try to run the show. And at one point, he turned around and addressed the executives in the back, don't change a single thing, da da da. And he was very loud and very aggressive. It was the worst moment. And that was a group getting away from me. And this guy was telling me he was running the show because he was an authority on horror and what things should be. So I learned a tremendous amount. I, you and I talked about taking charge, about trusting your intuition from the get go.

Kevin Goetz (32:43):

And you know that as pollers, that you kill yourself in the back saying, I should have listened to myself. Mm-hmm <affirmative>. Not put them in the group as a good poller. Ari, what were you looking for? What makes a great respondent?

Ari Virgil-Paige (32:54):

I think in the same way, moderators have to be someone who people wanna engage with. You sort of get a sense from someone. Are they engaging? Is this someone I wanna talk to for longer than I'm talking to them right now? And if already I'm like, I can't wait to get away from this person. Or it feels like I'm pulling teeth to get any sort of response from them in the moment. Those are all red flag issues.

Kevin Goetz (33:17):

I also look at the passion or the polarization in their language. I hated that.

Ari Virgil-Paige (33:24):

You want constructive people.

Kevin Goetz (33:26):

Right? You want constructive people. Yeah. But also people that are living in gray, not so black and white. Because what happens is sometimes they'll take a position. And that is a terrible respondent in my opinion. Yeah. Some of that is just committed to one thing. Yep. Not open to anything else. Correct. 'cause it's not, as you said, constructive.

*Ari Virgil-Paige (33:46):

Right. 'cause it's not a complete piece. Like if the movie was done, and that's your final opinion on the piece, you're entitled to that. But part of the process, part of the goal is we're here to make this the best it can be, whatever that means for that particular film. And so if you're in service of, just don't change a thing. Even people who are overly positive aren't constructive anymore. Right. Because we still wanna understand no art is perfect. That's why filmmakers toil forever. And most movies now, filmmakers would still make changes. Mm-hmm <affirmative>. People would final edit until their graves if we let them. And we understand that. But there still has to be a moment where we go, how close can we get to perfection? And either you're picking people who you feel are servicing that mission or you get an instinct that they're not really there in support of that.

Kevin Goetz (34:33):

The older you get. And the more you do this, you will find there are filmmakers who are very receptive. I've mentioned Ron Howard in this podcast many, many times. But I've got a number of filmmakers who are so receptive and so open.

Terri Cavanaugh (34:51):

Yes.

Kevin Goetz (34:51):

And so embrace the process. Who are a couple of filmmakers that you've all worked with, that you have a particular appreciation because they appreciate what you do.

*Aaron Feuer (35:00):

You have those pinch-me moments where you're working with a filmmaker and someone you admire. Right. We're all film buffs here. We're all, we love movies. We love theater. We love it. Peter Farrelly, recently we were Oh, the best. Uh, just incredible. Yeah. And not only was he receptive, he wanted to hear the research, he wanted to hear what the audience said. The first group I did with him, we walk outta that group and he pulls me aside. He goes, that helped me so much. Aaron. Oh my God. That was, uh, you know, I was thinking this, but I didn't even think about that. I didn't even think about that. And then we came back a handful of weeks later, they went in, they did the edit. All the things they needed to do. We came back, scores jumped. It did exactly what was needed for that. Isn't that the best? And And it was incredible. Yeah. It was. Because you really hope.

Terri Cavanaugh (35:51):

You feel like you've won an Oscar when that happens. Right. It's so exciting to see that they listen and then see that it works. Listen to the audience.

Kevin Goetz (35:59):

100%. Oh, 100%.

Terri Cavanaugh (36:01):

Such a high.

Kevin Goetz (36:02):

Terri, what about you?

Terri Cavanaugh (36:03):

I've been really fortunate and I have a lot of folks who really, Paul Feig is amazing. The Russo brothers listen as well. They yeah. I mean they listen, they wanna win. They all wanna win, you know.

Kevin Goetz (36:14):

That's right.

Terri Cavanaugh (36:15):

And Paul is so easy to

Kevin Goetz (36:16):

Paul adores you.

Terri Cavanaugh (36:18):

I adore him. And they really listen. You know who else, Matt Damon is great too. Matt really listens. He'll say, you know what? In a debrief I heard him say, and I thought it was so great, someone was pushing back against something in the debrief. He goes, Hey, hey, hey, the hood is still up. Let's listen to all of this.

Kevin Goetz (36:36):

Ooh.

Terri Cavanaugh (36:36):

Isn't that great?

Kevin Goetz (36:37):

Yeah, it's great.

Terri Cavanaugh (36:38):

And no one takes it personally. It's just information. And we're just here to get the best possible end of all this information.

Kevin Goetz (36:45):

And Adam McKay is another one who…

Terri Cavanaugh (36:47):

Oh, Adam listens to everything the audience says. They know when something is a little off, but they listen to the meat of the information, intuitively, they know too. Hmm.

Kevin Goetz (36:57):

Ari?

*Ari Virgil-Paige (36:57):

I think to your point, Terri, it's important to specify, when we say, listen, we're not saying like, take every single note from every single audience member. And I think honestly, that for some naysayers, that's what they think, that we're taking away all sort of choice or creative input. But what we're really saying is like, listen to the themes. And great filmmakers too, also, they'll listen. But when they feel strongly about their vision, they'll also choose when to stop. I think Lee Daniels is great at that. Yeah. He hears the note, but he also feels very passionately about what he set out to make and keeping the spirit of that thing. And I respect that. I also think, especially for filmmakers of color who have a different sort of perspective and making films in the studio system and learning how to parse. And I think that's part of also where the naysaying comes in. Research isn't always culturally aware or sort of taking in all of those elements. So again, how do you look at the spirit of the note, but keep the essence of what you want. But I think great filmmakers just understand it's a tool. It's another tool in the kit. And you'd be foolish not to use it, but the amount of use, the level of use. Right. Some movies scored through the roof and your work is done before you start. And those are really great days at work. But some movies require a few rounds of renovations before you're ready to move in.

Kevin Goetz (38:19):

And prescriptives.

Ari Virgil-Paige (38:19):

Yes. And, all we're saying is, is be honest about the stage your house is in. We'll help you finish it. But you have to be honest about where it is now, if you're gonna get the product you want.

Terri Cavanaugh (38:31):

I mean everybody, to your point, all the greats, Ron, Guillermo, these guys, they all believe in the process and they listen to the notes. And what Ari has to say is so true. They take away the information and then they process it. Guillermo goes, darling, you know, I hate these. And I said, yes, I know. He said, but I'll tell you what, here's what I need to know. Did I confuse them? Did I bore them? I trust you. I'm gonna go away. Bye.

Kevin Goetz (38:56):

Right.

Terri Cavanaugh (38:57):

And you know, he's gonna listen to that information.

Kevin Goetz (39:00):

A hundred percent.

Terri Cavanaugh (39:01):

So that's why I say, I appreciate that.

Kevin Goetz (39:03):

You know, you're asking people to talk about your child <laugh> in front of you.

Terri Cavanaugh (39:07):

Yeah.

Kevin Goetz (39:08):

It's nerve-racking. My nephew, Dylan, who's Terri's son, if we're talking about Dylan and 20 people are there, you'd be in the back going, how dare you say that about my son.

*Ari Virgil-Paige (39:20):

<laugh>. It's like when they have like celebrities read like mean tweets. It's like they're watching people essentially live tweets, live comment, live posts about their baby in real time. And yes, some of those comments are gonna be lovely and some of them are gonna hurt. And so part of our job is like, we're empathetic to everyone. Yeah. We're empathetic to the audience who wants to like the movie. We're empathetic to the filmmaker who wants to connect with the audience. And to the studio that's trying to run a business. Right. But there's a lot of priorities that we have to try to meet in the middle. And that's really what our goal is, is to pull all those factions together and go, this is where you have common ground.

Aaron Feuer (39:58):

Right. I was gonna say, there's something we haven't brought up. The new filmmakers, the folks that have never gone through this process.

Ari Virgil-Paige (40:05):

Those are my favorites.

Aaron Feuer (40:09):

We're there to truly guide them.

Kevin Goetz (40:10):

This, I'm too old. This shit, you guys <laugh>, I'll take the veterans for the first screening when a filmmaker's getting gobsmacked by an audience 'cause they think they've made something that's connecting so well. Yeah. Yep. And they're, you know, sort of obliterated. It's so painful and it requires so much. I just had a recent episode and I felt so bad for this wonderful filmmaker who made a beautiful movie that needs work, and thought it was the end of the world.

Ari Virgil-Paige (40:42):

Aw.

Kevin Goetz (40:43):

And I know that's not great and that’s how it feels so it's just a lot of work. But when it pays off, man. Ari, do you have a situation where you had not a lot of consensus in the group?

Ari Virgil-Paige (40:54):

Yeah.

Kevin Goetz (40:54):

But that one nugget that opened up an entire solve, if you will. So I'm gonna give you a quick example. I worked on a movie years ago, and I remember that it was sadly too late to make any significant change to this part. We couldn't crack the ending, really. We tried all so hard to do that. And at the end of the movie, there was like a treasure gold, and the two leads found the gold and donated the gold to a museum. And it just was great, but not emotionally satisfying. And so one woman, I remember exactly where she was sitting in the second row on the end said, I just wish they kept a little for themselves. And everyone goes, yeah. And that would have absolutely raised the scores on that.

Ari Virgil-Paige (41:55):

Yeah. I've certainly been in those scenarios. I think where it happens often is, honestly, and what people presume the audience understands either coming in or maybe along the way. Like, oh, they know that these people are connected in this way, or they know that this thing here is important or emblematic of this archetypal, whatever. And I think especially for naysayers, when they go, oh, well, you know, they just didn't get it. That's not my audience. It's like, well, in the real world, you're not gonna be able to qualify everyone who's exposed to your film and ensure they all have the base level of information that would be ideal for them to fully get it. So serve your core, of course. But you have to be aware, there are other audience members too. And how are you ensuring that everyone is having the same ride in a way that's satisfying and makes sense.

Kevin Goetz (42:47):

Aaron, have you had a situation of a little gem that came in that sort of cracked the code?

Aaron Feuer (42:54):

I have had those somewhere in the horror genre where information that was needed or not needed, right. Things that the audience did not need was confusing them, but not confusing them in a good way. We call 'em the bad confusions. Right? We wanna get rid of those bad confusions. There's also one where there was something we had discovered within the focus group within the cards that my belief and what the audience was telling us would have helped the audience. The filmmaker did not want to do it. And then when the film was released, what was said, all the things that were missing on Rotten Tomatoes. Yeah. What the audience knew and what they were looking for. And it was that validation of, I knew we cracked it. I knew that this is what the audience wanted, but that's completely up to them. It's their art form as well.

Ari Virgil-Paige (43:43):

Yeah.

Aaron Feuer (43:44):

But it gave me the validation that I knew we were onto something.

Ari Virgil-Paige (43:47):

Hear it in the group or hear it online, but you'll hear it.

Aaron Feuer (43:49):

That's right.

Kevin Goetz (43:49):

You'll hear it. When you hear pace often, you'll go, the movie's terrific. And everyone's begging them to take out 10 more minutes or five more minutes or 20 more minutes.

Terri Cavanaugh (44:00):

Yeah. Yeah.

Kevin Goetz (44:00):

In some cases. And then you hear everyone recommending the movie with a caveat. Caveat, it was really good, but it's long.

*Ari Virgil-Paige (44:08):

Yeah, yeah. Yeah. And you don't want that. Honestly, like in an attention economy where short-form content is raging, don't tell a three-hour story when a two hour and a half story or an hour and 45 minute story would be just as satisfying. Be respectful. Audiences aren't dumb. They know when you're earning their time and when you're wasting it.

Aaron Feuer (44:28):

I was gonna say, if you guys ever found yourself, you've tested a movie, you don't know what the final cut is. Right. You're not a hundred. Yeah. You watch and then you'll go on and go, okay, I've already seen this whole movie, so now I'm gonna speed up through it. You go, oh, they did not do that ending. Or I guess they did do that ending.

Terri Cavanaugh (44:42):

So yeah, I'll go back and watch to see what the ending.

Aaron Feuer (44:44):

Yeah.

Terri Cavanaugh (44:44):

Because endings are everything.

Kevin Goetz (44:46):

Terri, have you ever seen a film test really well in the data afterwards, but really fell flat in the group?

Terri Cavanaugh (44:53):

I have, but luckily not very often. People can have a hard time sometimes articulating their thoughts when it's late and they're tired and that low energy can permeate the entire group. Sometimes I've had to work really hard to extract useful information, and it may not sound as enthusiastic as the scores reflect.

Kevin Goetz (45:15):

The worst is when the focus group is way too positive.

Terri Cavanaugh (45:19):

Yeah.

Kevin Goetz (45:19):

And then the numbers come back and they basically shat on the movie from a numbers standpoint. And you're going, oh my gosh. One of the things we all try to do is to get a representative group so that we're not overly positive or overly negative. I also want to reiterate that I tend to not wanna ever put a poor in my group, unless it's absolutely positive. And unless they have something constructive to say.

Terri Cavanaugh (45:43):

Yeah.

Kevin Goetz (45:43):

Because by and large poors, if you rating a movie, poor is almost unconvertible. Mm-hmm <affirmative>. Right? They're rejecting something about the premise. That's not good real estate for your focus group.

*Terri Cavanaugh (45:52):

Yes. But when you have a group, which has happened to me once or twice with smaller films, that there were no excellence and it was all good, fair and poor. And in that instance, I don't say, gimme a word or whatever I say, okay. I just wanna remind everybody that we're not here to be mean, and we're not here to be pretend critics. What we're here to do is constructive criticism to help this filmmaker get the best version. Because if I have all fairs, like four goods, all fairs, and then I even have a poor, you have to structure it so that we understand what the exercise of this particular focus group is.

Kevin Goetz (46:31):

Yeah. And as you said, if you have a hater in the group, you don't want to empower them.

Terri Cavanaugh (46:37):

No, not at all. 

Kevin Goetz (46:37):

When they've got it position, for example, I hate when Hollywood does. And I'm like, guess what? I'm not a mouthpiece for Hollywood. So we can do that on another forum, but let's mm-hmm <affirmative>. Let's get back to the movie. Yeah. You know, that kind of thing. Yeah. Hey, I wanna end with something which I've never done before, and sort of turn the tables and just sort of have you ask me a question. Aaron, I'm gonna start with you.

Aaron Feuer (47:01):

Okay. When was your aha moment for you in this business in terms of being a moderator? Was there a moment for you that you went, this is it. This is what I wanna do?

*Kevin Goetz (47:15):

I don't know if there was a moment of an aha moment, but I do know that one of my first groups, I sort of failed at miserably and was in tears and had it recorded on a cassette. And we played it in the car afterwards. And she said, you did everything right. Catherine Paura said that you did everything right. I wouldn't worry about that. You gotta get right back in the saddle. And the next group I did was for Disney. And Joe Farrell said to Jeffrey Katzenberg, look, I've got a young moderator I want you to see, and you know if it's okay. And he goes, oh, sure, sure, sure. And I did the group and was basically told, thank you very much, Joe, but we'd like to have Kevin work from now on. Not that you can't work, but that we want him to jump in. And that happened with Tom Sherak at Fox and it happened with other folks throughout the industry and suddenly I became the most requested moderator. So it wasn't a moment, but it was a turning point. Terri?

Terri Cavanaugh (48:13):

We work in a lot of modalities. I'm curious, do you have one that you favor or that you feel gives you the most juicy feedback?

Kevin Goetz (48:26):

Ooh, great question and I would say in our regular focus group work, after a movie, the implicit response turns me on, the body language. Mm-hmm <affirmative>. The hands going up super high. Or not a character who's a lead not being mentioned.

Terri Cavanaugh (48:45):

Yeah.

Kevin Goetz (48:45):

Often what is not said is as important as what is said.

Terri Cavanaugh (48:49):

Amen.

Kevin Goetz (48:50):

And I get excited when I can actually tell a story through behavior.

Terri Cavanaugh (48:54):

Yes.

*Kevin Goetz (48:55):

Just behavior. I don't even have to hear the words. If I say something and their response to it is intense or muted, I can often find that the most helpful. So the in-person modality of that implicit response is incredible. Ari?

Ari Virgil-Paige (49:13):

I'm curious how you would describe your moderator style. Like if someone's like, well, what's your vibe like? When people ask me, I say, my style is an agendaed dinner party. Like in the sense that you're gonna have a good time. It's gonna feel like we know each other, but clearly I have a point of view about what I wanna know. So I'm curious how you would describe your style.

Kevin Goetz (49:32):

Confrontational.

Ari Virgil-Paige (49:34):

Mm-hmm

*Kevin Goetz (49:34):

<affirmative>. And a challenger. I'm a seven Enneagram on the Enneagram scale. Yeah. As an enthusiast, which I think makes you want to talk to me and trust me, but my wing is a challenger and I'm always trying to challenge what they're saying. I will remember what everybody is saying, and I'll go back to someone, but you said this before, so you're contradicting yourself. Explain yourself.

Ari Virgil-Paige (50:01):

Yeah. Yeah.

Kevin Goetz (50:02):

I will be in their face.

Ari Virgil-Paige (50:03):

Yeah.

Kevin Goetz (50:03):

And say, well, that's ridiculous. Why would you say that? You had just said this. And I've worked in other industries where it hasn't worked as well as movies, but movies and I both are emotional <laugh>. Mm-hmm <affirmative>. And emotionally driven. And so I find that technique elicits the most honest, authentic response. Because people will stand up for themselves if they have conviction about it. Yeah. And if they don't have conviction about it, they will rethink it. It's not that important.

Ari Virgil-Paige (50:36):

Yeah.

Kevin Goetz (50:36):

And the filmmakers, they seem to really appreciate that. They know I'm on their side.

Ari Virgil-Paige (50:40):

Yeah.

Kevin Goetz (50:41):

And the studio as well. I hope they do. And sometimes it's quite successful. Most of the time it works. And for the rare times, you can counter in a respondent who just can't handle that kind of confrontation. Or even a filmmaker or studio person who feels like that is way too aggressive. I don't gel that well with, but it is my style. It's worked for me 95% of the time in my career. So I value it. It's a terrific question. I just wanna say though, what I find really interesting is I'm training the next generation because I'm not gonna be doing this forever. And I have people in the batter's box who are warming up to take over, and I'm very excited about that. Nothing gives me more pleasure than to hear, oh, can we have Terri for that? Oh, I'd love Aaron for that. Oh, could Ari do that? And I am joyful when that happens.

Ari Virgil-Paige (51:37):

I feel very fortunate for the path that I've been on with Screen Engine and with you. And moderating is newer on my path here, relatively speaking. You know, I've been with Screen Engine since 2010. So yeah, it's very cool to be able to do what we do to go in a movie theater and see posters and go, oh, we worked on that.

Kevin Goetz (51:58):

You guys, what can I say except, thank you so much for many things, for being as talented as you all are, for being as intuitive, as curious as you all are, and for sharing your careers and choosing to fulfill your careers at Screen Engine. It means the world to me, and I love you all. So thanks again everyone.

Terri Cavanaugh (52:19):

Thank you. Thank you, Kev.

Kevin Goetz (52:24):

To our listeners, I hope you enjoyed our interview today. For more filmmaking and audience testing stories, I invite you to check out my book, AudienceOlogy at Amazon or through my website at KevinGoetz360.com. You can also follow me on my social media. Next time on Don't Kill the Messenger, I'll welcome producer Basil Iwanyk. Until then, I'm Kevin Goetz. And to you, our listeners, I appreciate you being part of the movie-making process. Your opinions matter.

Host: Kevin Goetz
Guests: Terri Cavanaugh, Ari Virgil-Paige, Aaron Feuer
Producer: Kari Campano
Writers: Kevin Goetz, Darlene Hayman, and Kari Campano
Audio Engineer: Gary Forbes (DG Entertainment)