Podcast: Don't Kill the Messenger with Movie Research Expert Kevin Goetz
Guest: Donald Petrie

Interview Transcript:

Announcer (00:03):

From script to screen, every film is brought to life by visionary creatives and executives, all sharing one mission – to captivate the audience. Hosted by award-winning movie strategist, Kevin Goetz, our podcast, Don't Kill The Messenger, offers a filmmaking masterclass through intimate conversations with Hollywood's most influential voices. And now, your host, Kevin Goetz.

Kevin Goetz (00:29):

Picture a young boy running around TV sets in New York, the son of a legendary director and a pioneering producer by high school. He's acting in theater. By film school, he's directing award-winning shorts. And not long after he's launching Julia Roberts in Mystic Pizza and reshaping the rom-com playbook with Miss Congeniality and How to Lose a Guy in 10 days. That boy, of course, is Donald Petrie, who has a deep understanding of character chemistry and the audience. Donald, you're a former actor turned director. You've worked with performers, navigated audience feedback, you've continued a family legacy steeped in storytelling, and I want to add in integrity. I am so thrilled to have you, who I consider, I don't know if it's a first cousin or a brother, but certainly my family. And I'm grateful to have you here and I've wanted you on this show for so long. Welcome.

Donald Petrie (01:31):

It's great to be here. And yes, I think it's definitely family. I would be honored to call you my brother. <laugh>.

Kevin Goetz (01:40):

Well, that's so, so sweet of you. I want to say Donald, let's put it in context of why I would be considered family. So years and years ago, I didn't even know you. I tested a movie for your dad, the late Daniel Petrie Sr. Dan was legendary in movies, but especially television. He made so many important movies. And then your mother Dorothea kind of broke the glass ceiling when it came to women producing and also won a ton of Emmys. My husband Neil and I once joked that when we went over at dinner party at your parents' house, it was a dinner for 12. And I think there were enough Emmys for every place setting <laugh>. And so cut to years later, I produced a movie called Wild Iris, and I was lucky enough to pique your dad's interest and get him involved as the director.

(02:39):

It was an extraordinary experience. It starred the late Gena Rowlands, Laura Linney and Emil Hirsch. And it ended up getting nominated for three Emmys and it won Laura Linney a best actress Emmy. And from that point, your dad and I were joined at the hip <laugh>. And I feel like after your Dad died, I started really seeing your mother on a regular basis. It's sort of a promise I made him to stay involved. And then of course I worked on every one of your movies and your brother Dan's movies. And I love June and Mary and, and all the family and kids. I had to get that outta the way. Listeners, sorry.

Donald Petrie (03:18):

<laugh>, all I can say is you are part of the family. And certainly when it comes to the movies, you're the first one we go to when we need a second opinion, a constructive opinion. I think that's the key. That's, that's really the key 'cause anybody's opinions, what do they say about opinions?

Kevin Goetz (03:39):

 They're like, they're like assholes. Everyone has one.

*Donald Petrie (03:41):

<laugh>. But a constructive opinion is a whole different level. And you are insightful and you are an expert in your field. Oh, that and, and you go way beyond the normal of audience testing. Audience testing, of course being mainly for the marketing people. They want to know who and how to market the film. But from a filmmaker's perspective, especially someone like myself who works mainly in comedy, you know, dying is easy, comedy is hard, <laugh>, and listen your insights into you know, what's working and what's not working and even how to make it better are invaluable.

Kevin Goetz (04:28):

Donald, let me start with the young Donald. There is an innate decency and sense of humanity to you, of your persona, your whole family's persona. What did your parents instill early on? I mean, they were both in the business, but they seemed enormously present in the kids' lives. You weren't raised by nannies.

Donald Petrie (04:48):

No, we weren't raised by nannies. In fact, wherever my father was doing a movie, the family moved. So I went to five elementary schools, three high schools. 'cause we were in New York, London, New York, LA, New York, wherever dad was doing a movie. And my older brother, Dan Jr, he kind of got sick of that and went off to boarding school, I think from junior high on. So I only saw him at certain times of the year. But June and Mary and I, you know, went to London and wherever.

Kevin Goetz (05:22):

But why did everybody in the business, everybody that I know, you mentioned the Petrie name and they say kind, decent, the greatest of integrity. Where did that come from? Is it from the Nova Scotia roots of dad <laugh>? Is it from your mother? Because it's not like by accident.

Donald Petrie (05:40):

I wish I knew. I wish I really knew the answer to that. I had great loving parents who were parents. Show business came about for us almost through osmosis. It was never pushed.

Kevin Goetz (05:56):

Tell us about that.

Donald Petrie (05:58):

To tell you the truth, as a kid, I didn't know what my dad did growing up. Yes, I visited the set in New York once, back in live television or you know, one of these early shows. I was young, like five or something like this.

Kevin Goetz (06:14):

Well then live television went the way of the Dodo bird.

*Donald Petrie (06:17):

I know. I remember visiting the set and leaning against a wall and the wall moved. And it was the first time I realized this world isn't real <laugh>. But my father has always instilled in us respect. Respect for talent. I think if I had one lesson that I really learned from both parents, this is a collaborative art, and my dad used to call it making it director proof. Surround yourself with the best people you can. The one most wonderful actors, producers, writers, cinematographers, composers, editors, assistant directors, hugely important. Production design, casting. Well of course they say in Hollywood - casting, casting, casting. And I've, I've been privileged, honored to work with some of the best actors in the business and some of the best producers, writers, cinematographers, and on and on.

Kevin Goetz (07:20):

So you started as an actor, you went to school to be an actor.

Donald Petrie (07:25):

Right.

Kevin Goetz (07:26):

What did you learn as an actor that would inform your filmmaking career?

*Donald Petrie (07:31):

Well, to tell you the truth, I'm kind of known as an actor's director. And I think part of what I learned both at Santa Monica College and, and then Cal State Northridge, and what dad instilled in me too, was it's not so much what you learn, it's that you learn how to learn and how to keep, continue learning long past school. So once I graduated, I said, well then I wanna study with Lee Strasberg. Well, I wanna study with Stella Adler. Well, I wanna study with Uta Hagan. Well, I wanna study with Harry Mastrogeorge and I studied with all of them. So being able to compare all those different kind of schools of acting helped me enormously when it came to directing. Part of what you need to know when you're working with actors is how they tick, how they work, whose method, who's more the English school. How can you best help the actor get to their best performance by knowing what their background is and what makes them tick.

Kevin Goetz (08:42):

How did you cast Julia Roberts in Mystic Pizza? Because she obviously we know how that turned out. <laugh>.

Donald Petrie (08:49):

Yes. I was three weeks from shooting and I had cast pretty much the rest of the movie. And that was the most difficult role to cast because she had to be brazen, bravado, and yet the most vulnerable of the three.

Kevin Goetz (09:08):

Wow. I get it. I get it, man.

*Donald Petrie (09:10):

You could pull off one or the other. But getting that combination of sexy bravado. And yet she's the one who's scared. She's the one who doesn't see a future for herself. And when Julia came in and read, and I've heard the stories where she colored her hair for it and all this kind of thing, I had no clue of that. All I know is I was standing next to the camera when she read and I breathed this sigh of relief. I think I just, I just went, ah, <laugh>, I found our Daisy. And I'll tell you, even then, I called the director of the movie that she had done before, Satisfaction.

Kevin Goetz (09:55):

She had done a movie. I didn't know she had done movie before.

Donald Petrie (09:58):

She had, she had done one movie in a much smaller role. It was a movie called Satisfaction.

Kevin Goetz (10:03):

Got it.

Donald Petrie (10:04):

And I called the director just to say, Hey, what do you know? Can I see some footage? And she said to me, well, 'cause I was actually interested in a different actress. And she said, well, you could be, but if you see this footage you'll cast Julia Roberts <laugh>. Wow. And then later on, after Mystic Pizza was in the can but not released yet, I get a call from Herbert Ross who is directing a movie called Steel Magnolias. And he's interested in a different actor in the movie that I was doing. And I said the same thing that the director of Satisfaction said to me. I said, Herbert, I'll show you whatever footage you want, but she'll cast Julia Roberts.

Kevin Goetz (10:53):

And she got an Oscar nomination for that.

Donald Petrie (10:55):

Oh yeah.

Kevin Goetz (10:56):

I would be remiss if I did not mention my very dear friend, Adam Storke.

Donald Petrie (11:01):

Of course.

Kevin Goetz (11:02):

Who played Julia Roberts boyfriend in that.

Donald Petrie (11:04):

Yes, absolutely.

Kevin Goetz (11:06):

Was he great to work with?

Donald Petrie (11:07):

Oh, he was fantastic.

Kevin Goetz (11:09):

Leading question. 

Donald Petrie (11:09):

He was fantastic. <laugh>, I'll tell you, after that movie, I was really wondering where Julia Roberts career would go. Because so much has to do with being selective about your choices. And she did the best job of finding the right projects. Or she had the best luck of those projects coming to her to make such a wonderful career.

Kevin Goetz (11:37):

Your dad did that with Emil Hirsch on Wild Iris. It was only Emil's second. It's the same story, but it's the same thing. And I remember meeting Emil and he was 14 at the time, I think going on 15. And your dad saw very special in him. I came on board in all candor a little after that. It took me a second to get on board 'cause I always saw the character in my head as a blonde.

Donald Petrie (12:03):

I was available.

Kevin Goetz (12:05):

<laugh>, so, and your dad said, no, we're going with him. And I said, okay. I defer.

Donald Petrie (12:10):

Mm-hmm <affirmative>

Kevin Goetz (12:11):

And he never was dictatorial at all. I don't want to come off. He looked a little like John Ford in his later years, but he had the complete opposite demeanor. He was such a gentleman in any event. So Emil was so particular about the roles that he would take. I was like, you gotta get a publicist. And getting the teen magazines and the complete wrong advice for someone like that. Mm-hmm <affirmative>. And I envied that 'cause I never had that. I was just like, gimme a roll. You know what I mean? And of course I ended up moving careers.

Donald Petrie (12:44):

As did I.

Kevin Goetz (12:45):

I do want to talk about how Mystic Pizza helped launch the trajectory of your career, if you will.

Donald Petrie (12:51):

Well, it's funny, I'll go back a little further than that. In that I started in television and it was television and getting to work with the great Stephen Bochco and directing an episode of LA Law called the Venus Butterfly.

Kevin Goetz (13:11):

Oh, that's a famous episode. No shit, I didn’t.

Donald Petrie (13:13):

Very famous episode. Didn't know that it got me an Emmy nomination? And how old were you? I don't know, maybe 26.

Kevin Goetz (13:23):

We would've been able to add a 13th to the table. <laugh>.

*Donald Petrie (13:27):

I wish. <laugh> <laugh>. Anyway, that changed the trajectory of my career because frankly then was when I started getting offers of feature films, I knew from my father also who was very wise that directors get typecast just as fast or faster than actors do. Most first time directors get offered low budget horror slasher movies. And I was not a fan of those. And so indeed, when Mystic Pizza came along, it came from the producers two scripts. They really wanted me for this sci-fi monster movie.

Kevin Goetz (14:12):

Oh.

Donald Petrie (14:12):

But they said, but we've also got this other little picture. We're doing Mystic Pizza. And I read the sci-fi horror picture and I went, Hmm. Not for me. And I read Mystic Pizza and fell in love. So I called the producers the next day and I said, I didn't tell them, which I just said, I love this script, <laugh>. And they said, oh, come in. And they thought I was talking about the monster picture.

Kevin Goetz (14:36):

Oh man.

Donald Petrie (14:37):

I went in and talked to them and I could see their faces as I'm describing how passionate about this I am. And then of course then they realized, oh, oh, you want Mystic Pizza? I went, yeah, yeah, it's great. And he went, oh, <laugh>

Kevin Goetz (14:55):

The other vein, running through your family's blood, that is a universal theme, is taste. You all have great taste and it's a gift. You know, it's just in the blood. Your mother came up with CBB and then your dad took it over. And then I saw his script and I said, what's that? And he said, I got it from Dorothea. CBB was Could Be Better. I use it to this day on editorial stuff in everything I do. Those three initials to me embody the craftsmanship, the artistry of both mom and dad. By the way, when your dad and I would have our weekly lunches after Wild Iris, because we remained great friends and had considered him like a dad or grandpa, I joked with him 'cause the book Tuesdays with Maury came out recently. I said, Hey Dan, this is like Tuesdays with Maury. He goes, don't say that. <laugh> <laugh>. He didn't like that. We used to go to Cafe Roma.

Donald Petrie (16:02):

Yeah, right.

Kevin Goetz (16:02):

Where Schwartzenegger would have a cigars and mm-hmm <affirmative>. You know, and everyone knew Dan and that was great. And then mom and I found our own restaurants afterwards. Yeah. But anyway, I'm so sorry to hijack the conversation with mom and dad. It must give you great pleasure, right?

Donald Petrie (16:17):

Oh, absolutely. Great memories, <laugh>.

Kevin Goetz (16:21):

So I want to go back a moment to the launching of your film career, because I didn't even know that you started in television. I thought you had done a short, which led to Mystic Pizza. I didn't realize it was an Emmy nomination that you got from the Bochco series. That's incredible.

Donald Petrie (16:36):

Right?

Kevin Goetz (16:36):

Then you get Mystic Pizza, but then you don't want to get typecast. But you know, you have a knack for comedy. I mean, I can vouch that you're one of the best, truly. And I see the way your mind works. I see how you think funny. Tell us about that.

Donald Petrie (16:53):

That's sometimes an issue because I'll be reading a wonderful dramatic script. And you know, they're at the mother's funeral. Funeral even in the most tragic of moments in, in this great play. I go, but wouldn't it be funny if the something happened with the coffin or <laugh>? No.

Kevin Goetz (17:10):

In every area of your life, Donald. So for example, Donald had a business card that he used to hand out folks, you remember business cards? You know, I was just on Capitol Hill last week speaking to Congress about piracy. And everyone has business cards. And they're like, can I have yours? I'm like, I don't have a business card. I haven't had one in years. Anyway, Donald, what did your business card say? <laugh>?

Donald Petrie (17:31):

It said Donald M. Petrie since 1954. <laugh>.

Kevin Goetz (17:37):

I thought it was one of the most clever taglines. Most. Okay.

Donald Petrie (17:42):

I stole it. I stole that idea. Ed Begley Jr. Did it before I did.

Kevin Goetz (17:45):

Oh shoot. I thought you were gonna say Heinz ketchup or something, you know. Ah. Um, so again, going back to Mystic Pizza comes out, it gets rave reviews. It's a moderate success.

Donald Petrie (17:58):

I wish it got rave reviews. It got mixed reviews. No shit, shit. But it really caught on with the audiences. I was honored because it was on Turner Classic movies last week. I felt if any one of my movies would've gone to Turner Classic Movies first it would've been Grumpy Old Men.

Kevin Goetz (18:16):

Oh yeah. That little movie. Okay, I'm gonna just move ahead then, because you mentioned it and I was leading up to it. Grumpy Old Men. You got to work with two comic legends, Jack Lemmon and Walter Matthau. What was it like the day before shooting? Were you nervous as hell?

Donald Petrie (18:33):

I was a little nervous. Uh, it was a little more about technical 'cause I went out to where we were supposed to shoot the next day. And I noticed we hadn't had snow in a while. We brought in all this snow to cover the street where they lived in Minnesota and we brought in clean snow from the airport <laugh>, because they need to keep the runways clean anyway, we put cotton bunting like they do in Hollywood on the roofs of the houses. And the color didn't match. So anyway, that night it snowed a quarter of an inch and everything was perfect.

Kevin Goetz (19:13):

I've got chills. I've got chills. That's divine intervention, you know?

*Donald Petrie (19:18):

And then the first day of shooting I, or maybe it was the second day where Walter came up to me and he said, Donald, you know, after take three I don't get any better. I just get older. But then Walter said, and I really only need two directions, LD or MD? I said, yes, Walter. He says, more demented, less demented. If I ever write a book, that's the title of the book. But that's how I pretty much directed Walter Matthau for the rest of the movie.

Kevin Goetz (19:49):

Did Jack and Walter get along?

Donald Petrie (19:51):

Oh my God, they were fast friends. They had each and their contract, a specific hotel room that would have a kitchen, all that. And we found one that just happened to connect.

Kevin Goetz (20:04):

What was it like directing Jack Lemmon?

Donald Petrie (20:07):

Jack Lemmon is meticulous. I mean, everybody knows about Magic Time. And Jack would ask the AD, please call me to the set about 20 minutes before you're ready to shoot. And you'd see him going through the scene himself. And most of the time say an eating scene would be a continuity nightmare. Did he have the fork in his hand? Was the fork up? Was the fork down? Was there food on the fork? Was it right with Jack? It would be exactly the same because he used everything. If he's gonna hold a fork, he's gonna use that fork as a prop as to better tell the story.

Kevin Goetz (20:53):

An editor's dream.

*Donald Petrie (20:55):

So he really was an editor's dream. But also in some ways I found that Jack and Walter were better together than apart because Walter was never the same twice. And Jack was so specific that Walter yanked Jack out of whatever he had planned. And Jack grounded Walter.

Kevin Goetz (21:26):

Oh, it's like a good marriage. Did you let them play?

Donald Petrie (21:29):

Oh my God. <laugh>, it's an outtake ending. And the very first test screening of that, the only outtake at the end, there was a line in the movie that I thought was inappropriate Burgess Meredith and Jack are looking out the window seeing that Ozzie Davis is going to go in and have the Thanksgiving date with Ann-Margret. And they're jealous as hell. Or Jack is, right. What Burgess Meredith’s line was, is looks like Jake's gonna bury his boner or you know, whatever. Right? All these looks like he's gonna ride the wild baloney pony. And the line in the script I thought was kind of too filthy. <laugh>,

Kevin Goetz (22:18):

What was it?

Donald Petrie (22:19):

Looks like Jack's gonna take the skin boat to Tuna Town <laugh>. That was what was in the script. 

Kevin Goetz (22:27):

Oh, seriously. That is the funniest line ever.

Donald Petrie (22:29):

I asked the teamsters to come up with alternate lines, right? And we had about 20, and rather than guess I shot 'em all. And with Burgess, since he couldn't remember the line anyway, everything was cue cards. So we just flipped the card and I told Jack that I was gonna do this over and over and over. So we had about 12 different versions of that line. And that's what we showed at that first test screening.

Kevin Goetz (23:01):

I was there with you.

Donald Petrie (23:02):

All those. And on the sheet that they fill out, yes. Were all the lines listed and check which one you liked. <laugh>,

Kevin Goetz (23:11):

Stop it. Stop it. I have tell you, that is so genius an idea and that's part of your brilliance. But, and to have Burgess Meredith in that voice say those lines, right? Oh yeah, yeah. Oh my God. Just finishing Grumpy Old Men. What else do you remember from that movie that was particularly special?

Donald Petrie (23:35):

Well, first of all, it had so much heart. You know, it makes you laugh, it makes you cry. I did learn a lesson from that movie, the original script, which mind you, Mark Steven Johnson wrote. And he was a receptionist at like Orion or someplace and handed the script to John Davis. I thought that script was perfect. I wouldn't have changed one word in it.

Kevin Goetz (24:02):

Wow.

Donald Petrie (24:02):

And I shot it that way, which was a bookend at the opening. You're outside a church and you think you're there for a funeral. And there's Kevin Pollak and Darryl Hannah, and they start to talk about their fathers. And then the whole movie is a flashback as you meet the fathers and they run after Ann Margret and act like children and <laugh>, right? And then at the end you're back at the church. And the trick was Jack Lemnon and meanwhile has had a heart attack in the movie. And you're supposed to wonder, oh, are we there for Jack Lemmon's funeral? And then of course you go in and it's the wedding of Jack Lemmon and Ann-Margret. Well, what it taught me was when I did that opening, I guess the audience believed too strongly that it was a drama. I'm opening at a funeral. Everyone's somber. Then when it was a flashback and you had morning dickhead, morning moron, not a single laugh, it took me a half an hour to get a laugh out of the audience.

Kevin Goetz (25:21):

And that recovery time, right?

*Donald Petrie (25:23):

We lifted that whole opening off. What I did was I have to let the audience know it's okay to laugh from moment one. And this hadn't done that. Luckily I had shots of Minnesota wintertime, Wabashaw, just frozen everything. And, and the credits played over those shots. And I put on the song, were having a heat wave, the Tropical heat wave.

Kevin Goetz (25:53):

Tropical heat wave. Oh my lord.

Donald Petrie (25:55):

Right? Which came actually from Walter because Walter in the first scene comes out singing that <laugh> when he goes to the mailbox. So, so I put in that and as soon as they spoke, there were laughs.

Kevin Goetz (26:14):

You've put a stake in the ground and said, we are a comedy. You are a genius. When we come back after break, we're gonna talk more to Donald about his really illustrious film career and more things. We'll be back in a moment. If you are curious about how movies actually turn a profit, I've got something for you. My upcoming book, How to Score in Hollywood, dives into the intersection of creative instinct and audience insight, and where the business of film meets the art of storytelling. I'm putting together a book launch team, and I'd love for you to be a part of it. We're looking for people to help spread the word ahead of our November release. Sign up to join my launch team or for book updates at KevinGoetz360.com. And as always, thank you for your support. We're back with my wonderful friend, Donald Petrie. Donald, I just am so in awe of all you've accomplished and all the great people you've had the good fortune to work with. It's extraordinary.

Donald Petrie (27:32):

We really have to remember that this is a collaborative art.

Kevin Goetz (27:36):

Absolutely. I always say that.

Donald Petrie (27:38):

There are those out there who are auteurs and do everything.

Kevin Goetz (27:43):

God bless 'em.

Donald Petrie (27:44):

But still, I've had the great fortune of working with, again, the Lemmon Matthau and Burgess and those people. But Sandra Bullock, Michael Cain, Benjamin Brad Bratt, and William Shatner, Kate Hudson, Matthew McConaughey, BBE N Worth, Robert Klein, Brad Pitt, Gene Hackman, Marcia Gay Hart, and Jeff Daniels. Richard Dreyfus, Eli Wallach, June Squibb, Bill Pullman, Ed Herman. Right now I'm editing a movie with Daisy Ridley and Alden Aaron Wright.

Kevin Goetz (28:20):

What about some of your below the line folks?

Donald Petrie (28:22):

Below the line and above the line. I mean, think about the producers. John Davis, Sam Goldwin Jr. Linda Oakes, Lauren Schuler, Donner, Sandy Bullock.

Kevin Goetz (28:33):

Fabulous producer.

Donald Petrie (28:36):

Sandy Bullock is a producer as well. And she's not a producer in name like some actors are. 

Kevin Goetz (28:43):

That is correct.

Donald Petrie (28:43):

She's a real deal producer.

Kevin Goetz (28:46):

And I've worked very closely with her on several productions where she was serving in that role and takes it very seriously.

Donald Petrie (28:53):

Very much so. Sandy Panish, Mark Gordon, Chris Melidandri, Dick Wolf, Peter Jensky.

Kevin Goetz (28:59):

I was thinking about your composers.

Donald Petrie (29:02):

Composers. Alan Sylvestri, David Newman. Tommy Newman. Now I had an in with them, the Newmans and I went to high school together and did musicals in high school. But John Deney, who I also knew growing up, listen, a production design. David Chapman did eight movies for me, I think.

Kevin Goetz (29:23):

And your editor, your fabulous editor. Well you have a few but one in particular.

Donald Petrie (29:28):

I have a few fabulous editors. Debra Neil Fisher.

Kevin Goetz (29:32):

Deb Fisher's, come on, she's.

Donald Petrie (29:34):

I know I can't afford her anymore. Damnit <laugh>, Patrick Don Vito, Bonnie Kohler, Billy Weber, Malcolm Campbell. I've worked with Cinematographers, Russell Carpenter, Tim Sursted, Johnny Jensen, John Bailey, Laslo Kovaks, Jose Louis Kinney. I mean, I've been so fortunate.

Kevin Goetz (29:55):

My jaw is dropping and I'm sure the listeners out there are feeling the same way. I wanna play a very fast little game with you because you and I could spend six hours doing this. And you know, I'm not even exaggerating because it's so free flowing. I haven't gotten to one of my questions on this sheet that I have in front of me. I don't care about questions. Like I don't care about a moderator's guide when I'm moderating a movie because I want the audience to guide me and I wanna use the instincts and the intuition. So I'm gonna name some movies and I want you to tell me a line of the most memorable thing about that particular film. We'll start with Opportunity Knocks.

Donald Petrie (30:37):

Fear of Failure.

Kevin Goetz (30:40):

<laugh>. Ooh, explain.

Donald Petrie (30:41):

Well, my first movie went extremely well. And one wonders, is it always gonna be that great?

Kevin Goetz (30:49):

Oh, this was your sophomore effort.

Donald Petrie (30:51):

Yeah, Opportunity Knocks was my second film.

Kevin Goetz (30:54):

That's the kiss of death for many, many people.

Donald Petrie (30:58):

Exactly. It's very scary. And yet, you know, I'm working with, imagine I have a really terrific cast, but the thing I remember most is really trying to stay on top of my best game.

Kevin Goetz (31:12):

The Favor.

Donald Petrie (31:14):

Lauren Shuler Donner, wonderful, amazing producer, an unknown named Brad Pitt was in that.

Kevin Goetz (31:20):

Had he done Thelma and Louise yet?

Donald Petrie (31:23):

He had shot it, but it had not been released. Wow. He screen tested for that.

Kevin Goetz (31:29):

What did you see in him when he came in?

*Donald Petrie (31:31):

Oddly enough, kind of the same thing as Julia Roberts. You can't take your eyes off of them. But also you could have a line in a script and 10 actors reading that line would all read it pretty much the same way. And those two, Brad Pitt, Julia Roberts, people like that, it would be different. There's a uniqueness about them, there's a unpredictability about them that really makes them, like you said, you can't take your eyes off of ‘em.

Kevin Goetz (32:05):

And that's also the beauty of stardom, which is that thing that we can't kind of put our finger on, which is the relationship with the camera. And sometimes you meet him in person, you go that person.

Donald Petrie (32:18):

Yeah, right.

Kevin Goetz (32:18):

And you're like, what? And they just, Gary Cooper apparently was that way.

Donald Petrie (32:23):

Right. And that mind you, you know, Elizabeth McGovern was in that opposite him.

Kevin Goetz (32:29):

Him being Brad.

Donald Petrie (32:32):

Yeah. Brad Pitt and Elizabeth McGovern. And he had a love scene in that movie. And the joke of the movie is you've got Bill Pullman and Harley Jane Kozak, who are the married couple who are, huh, I'm too tired to have sex tonight. Can we do it without kissing? Can we do it without moving? And then you cut to Elizabeth McGovern with the hot younger guy Brad Pitt making love and it's steamy and hot. Right. <laugh>, that was the joke in the movie. Yeah. Yeah. Well I shot a love scene, I couldn't air it. It was X-rated. Those guys were so into this passionate lovemaking that I, I think on take seven, I said, um, Hey guys, let, let's do one where we skip the orgasm. And at the end what ended up in the movie is ah <laugh>, she rolls onto his chest and they've ha.

Kevin Goetz (33:37):

<laugh> Again, this is the genius of Donald Petrie, once again. Richie Rich.

Donald Petrie (33:43):

So much about that. John Davis again producing, shooting at Biltmore Mansion. I'll tell you, the most difficult thing about Richie Rich was here is a comic book character that is the richest kid in the world. Yet you want 'em to be likable. Right. And I think Beauty and the Beast, or some Disney animated movie had come out and I went, well here she's going to the Beast's house and the library is 20 stories high. And I said, a cartoon can make it as huge as anything. So I can't make a bigger plane, I can't make it. You know, we shot at the Biltmore Mansion, which is the biggest house, but it was really about making these people lovable and eclectic. Instead of flying the most latest beautiful jet, they fly an old DC three prop plane, they drive an old vintage Packard.

Kevin Goetz (34:50):

Right. 'cause you can't top

Donald Petrie (34:52):

An animated movie, right?

Kevin Goetz (34:53):

Right.

Donald Petrie (34:54):

So I had to find a different way that they show their wealth. And it ended up in the script when John Laroquette as our bad guy finally breaks into the vault, what's there? Family keepsakes.

Kevin Goetz (35:10):

Mm.

Donald Petrie (35:10):

To him it's junk. Where's the gold? Where's the money? Well, we keep it in a bank <laugh>.

Kevin Goetz (35:16):

So what you most remember from that movie is kind of this tight rope of how do I make these very wealthy people lovable?

Donald Petrie (35:25):

Yeah.

Kevin Goetz (35:25):

Who have everything.

Donald Petrie (35:26):

Yes.

Kevin Goetz (35:27):

Yeah. Got it. Hey, let me move on to Miss Congeniality.

*Donald Petrie (35:33):

Well I will tell you, working with Mark Lawrence, when I came onto that movie, I was a replacement director. I don't know who the original was. And I don't know how any falling out happened. All I know is I got a call to go in and meet on this script. But I had a lot of ideas for where I felt the script should go. The script originally was a comedy about pageants and it kind of spoofed pageants. And I went in there and I'm meeting with Sandy and Mark Lawrence, the writer and the Castle Rock people. And I said, listen right off the bat you don't make a comedy about pageants, you treat a pageant real and it will spoof itself. Whereas the movie I wanna make is Lethal Weapon and Sandy, your MelGibson, this tough as nails, a little bit crazy. Shoot first, ask questions later. That's the character I need. You know, somebody who has subjugated every female bone in her body to do this man's job in a man's world who then has to go undercover in the pageant. And that was the way we shaped it. And we were writing it as we were going.

Kevin Goetz (37:03):

What an incredible directive to give to your star. I mean that is so specific and so actionable. Like you can really turn that into something. You know what I mean?

Donald Petrie (37:15):

That was me pitching to direct it. And you know, a week later, 'cause they were meeting like four or five other directors.

Kevin Goetz (37:21):

Well who wouldn't give you the job after that?

Donald Petrie (37:24):

So a week later I got the job and was on a plane the next day to Texas. But a lot of Sandy is like, I had dinner with Sandy and I must have said something funny. Or she laughed at something and did the snort. She laughed, <laugh>. And I went, oh, keep that. And that became a thing for that character, how she walked. I said, walk like you've got balls <laugh>. You know. So again, she did walk like a brontasaurus.

Kevin Goetz (38:00):

I remember that movie tested really well.

Donald Petrie (38:03):

Yes it did.

Kevin Goetz (38:03):

Out of the gate, was there anything you learned from the test screening process in that particular picture?

Donald Petrie (38:09):

Yeah, we reshot the ending.

Kevin Goetz (38:10):

Tell us about it.

*Donald Petrie (38:12):

Well we reshot the ending, the original ending after they've arrested Candice Bergen and are putting her in the police car up came Michael Caine as Vic. And he says, oh Kathy, how could you have done this? Right? And she says, oh, you didn't talk to me like that when we were sleeping together. And both Benjamin and Sandy look at Mr. Vic and go Mr. Vic, all right. Kind of the feeling like, whoa, you've been playing us all along. We always thought you were gay and you're really not. And the gay audience hated it. They said, we finally have an unapologetically gay man in a movie played by Michael Caine and then you realize they only really like him after it's revealed he's not gay. And so we took that out and reshot the ending so that it's not Michael Caine coming up at all, it's Sandy putting Candice Bergen in the car. And it's a scene between Sandy and Candice Bergen is how it ended up. And it was 10 times better.

Kevin Goetz (39:34):

Because the focus was not on the ancillary character. It was on your two main characters, which is why the audience liked that I think also much more. How to Lose a Guy in 10 Days.

Donald Petrie (39:46):

Again, casting, casting, casting. It was fascinating working with Kate Hudson and Matthew McConaughey. I think the thing I recall most is that screenplay wise, one looks, especially in a romantic comedy, is when does the story begin? And obviously this is a story of the competition between these two characters, Matthew and Kate. So that's when the story begins. But we're setting up two lead characters. Usually you set up one, you set up the girl who's gonna meet the guy eventually, but he's just the guy. Or you meet the guy and you're eventually gonna meet the girl in the piece. But you have one lead character. This had two, it had two people with equal backgrounds and equal agendas going on to try to fool the other one. And so I never want to go past, say 20 minutes into the movie before my two lead characters are gonna meet. And the tango of these two people working each other, each can begin. So that I think was the most difficult thing.

Kevin Goetz (41:09):

You are a big advocate of the audience test screening process you've always been, and I've always respected that about you and appreciated that. What do you find most useful about the test screening process and what would you tell a young filmmaker who is just getting into shooting and now testing their movie?

*Donald Petrie (41:33):

Well, I talk to young filmmakers all the time because I have given master classes at Chapman and at USC and Cal State Northridge. So I work with students a lot. We don't know everything. As a director, yes I am an audience of one and I have to be the final arbitrator. However, when I'm shooting, I shoot for the editing room.

Kevin Goetz (42:00):

Explain that.

*Donald Petrie (42:01):

If I get a perfect performance that I think is spectacular, I'll shoot another. I'll write that down in my notes is that's spectacular, but let's do one bigger. Let's do one smaller. Let's give one for the actors. Let's try something different. Especially in comedy, what may be too much in one scene is not enough in another. And you have to find a balance. And testing, being able to watch an audience, hear an audience that tells you much more about how you're going to complete editing your film. Testing is what told me that I had to completely change the beginning of Grumpy Old Men. Testing is what told me I had to change the ending of Miss Congeniality. I will say that in How to Lose a Guy, I'm afraid we didn't get much information from testing 'cause we scored a 94. And the one thing we did learn is that men liked it almost as much as women. And that's how we marketed it. That certainly has been the easiest test of any movie I've ever done was How to Lose a Guy.

Kevin Goetz (43:27):

So the validation is what you got, not unimportant.

*Donald Petrie (43:33):

I've had students who direct a thing, everyone hates it and they go, you know, that's what I wanted. I wanted the audience to hate this. Well, good <laugh>, you got what you asked for, so go with God and <laugh>. But generally the movies I make, I want to hit an audience. In fact, I want to hit a four quadrant audience. I want to hopefully speak to everyone and I don't wanna only wanna make 'em laugh, I wanna make 'em laugh. I wanna make 'em cry. Hopefully they realize something in themselves that they can relate to the characters in the movie. They take away something with the movie.

Kevin Goetz (44:18):

Wow. Donald, thank you so much for being here. You are such a dear friend. I am blessed to have you and we are grateful to you for all of the wonderful films you've made for the contributions you've made to the film business. And it reminded me of just how much I miss you and how we need to see each other more. I'm gonna reach out as soon as I get back from London.

Donald Petrie (44:43):

Kevin, I feel the same way. You could have flown me over to London to do this in person <laugh>, but you chose not to. What can I say? I look forward to seeing you when you get back to Los Angeles.

Kevin Goetz (44:57):

To our listeners, I hope you enjoyed our interview today. I encourage you to watch many of the films discussed and check out Donald's next film, which is The Last Resort, a romantic comedy. For more filmmaking and audience testing stories, I invite you to check out my book, Audienceology, at Amazon or through my website at KevinGoetz360.com. You can also follow me on my social media. Next time on Don't Kill the Messenger, I'll welcome producer Basil Iwanyk. Until then, I'm Kevin Goetz and to you, our listeners, I appreciate you being part of the movie making process. Your opinions matter.

Host: Kevin Goetz
Guests: Donald Petrie
Producer: Kari Campano
Writers: Kevin Goetz, Darlene Hayman, and Kari Campano
Audio Engineer: Gary Forbes (DG Entertainment)