Podcast: Don't Kill the Messenger with Movie Research Expert Kevin Goetz
Guest: Dick Cook

Interview Transcript:

Announcer (00:03):

From script to screen, every film is brought to life by visionary creatives and executives, all sharing one mission – to captivate the audience. Hosted by award-winning movie strategist, Kevin Goetz, our podcast, Don't Kill The Messenger, offers a filmmaking masterclass through intimate conversations with Hollywood's most influential voices. And now, your host, Kevin Goetz.

Kevin Goetz (00:28):

Ask almost any director who worked with today's guest, and they will tell you he was the rare executive who earned their trust. From Finding Nemo to the Lion King, and from National Treasure to Pirates of the Caribbean, he left an indelible mark on Disney's legacy of storytelling and success. Listeners, I have with me today, Dick Cook, the former chairman of Walt Disney Studios, who's been called the filmmakers Chairman. He's a leader whose blend of creative instinct and business savvy helped deliver some of the most beloved and profitable films of the modern era. He's smart, he's a visionary, collaborative, respected, humble, and truly one of the nicest guys that I know. Dick, I am so excited to have you on my show. Welcome.

Dick Cook (01:21):

Well, thank you Kevin. It's a great pleasure to be here and it's great to see you.

Kevin Goetz (01:25):

How does a young boy from Bakersfield find a job at Disneyland? Operates rides, and then ends up running the entire operation? That is a story, that is a great narrative. <laugh>

Dick Cook (01:42):

Well, a lot of circumstances, a lot of things that just happened to kind of fall in place back when I started, the company was very small. It was still very much a family company and it wasn't nearly the size that it is today. And so they had, when I joined, I was a ride operator, like you mentioned, at Disneyland. I worked on a steam train in monorail and I was going to school at USC and never dreamed that it was gonna be a career. No designs at all getting into the film business. I always loved movies, went to them when I was younger and they'd always played a huge, huge part in my life.

Kevin Goetz (02:21):

In Bakersfield?

*Dick Cook (02:22):

In Bakersfield, the Fox Theater in Bakersfield. It was a place that all Disney movies played, and I loved it. It was fantastic. But at the time that I joined, two things were happening. One, the company was really growing. Walt Disney World was about to open up and there was just great opportunities. Walt had passed away in 1966. So you never got to meet him? I did not. I met his brother, Roy Disney, and how I met him was he was at Disneyland. One day I was on the steam train. We came over to Tomorrowland and we were really busy. It was an August day and were probably 50,000 people in the park. And Roy Disney and his party were coming through and I rolled the gate in front of them, not letting them on the train. And then I look up and of course I see that it's Roy Disney and just take a couple gulps.And I said, oh, excuse me, Mr. Disney, let me open up that gate. And he said, no, no, no, no, you're doing it right. Just great. Let's go ahead and move it out. We'll get the next one. So that was my first introduction to Roy Disney. But Disney was organized a little bit differently than it is today. So the STEAM trai and monorail was actually owned by a company called Retlaw. And Retlaw was Walter spelled backward, and it belonged to the Walt Disney family. So that was just by happenstance and good fortune. When I interviewed, I happened to get on the steam train because I had worked for Santa Fe Railroad when I was in Bakersfield. Whoa, what age are we talking? I was underage. I was 17 years old. And for that summer, my family knew the train master in Bakersfield and he said, I think you're 18 so we can hire you. And I became a brakeman and it went from Bakersfield to Barstow through the Tehachapi grade on freight trains for a summer. And so when they asked me what my prior employment had been, I wrote down Santa Fe Railroad. They go, oh, you're perfect. We'll put you on the trains. So I just got lucky and got on the trains.

Kevin Goetz (04:21):

I can't believe at 17 you actually had a resume. <laugh>. I did. To get the Disney job running the steam train, the monorail.

Dick Cook (04:29):

Yeah. It was sort of happenstance and just a lot of luck and all that. And then when I graduated, I was thinking about going to law school, didn't have the money, so I decided that I was looking for a job. But a job came open in marketing at Disneyland, doing youth events, boy Scouts, girl Scouts, Catholic School days. So

Kevin Goetz (04:46):

Did you commute from SC all the way down to Anaheim?

Dick Cook (04:49):

I did.

Kevin Goetz (04:50):

Like every other day or,

Dick Cook (04:52):

Yeah, I wasn't full time. So I'd work on the weekends and holidays and all of that. And it was just great fun. And then when I started at Disneyland, I had that junior sales representative, and it just happened to be a time again, just very, very fortunate. There were so many really super talented people that were there, creative, smart, most fantastic artists that I'd ever seen in my life that I was exposed to. And the company was just kind of exploding, especially

Kevin Goetz (05:25):

In theme parks. But did you realize then that phenomenon that Disney would become?

Dick Cook (05:32):

It was, to me already it was a phenomenon.

Kevin Goetz (05:36):

But I'm saying you were there when it was a true renaissance, when you became an executive. But up to that time, sure, it was still a beloved brand, but it exploded in such a tremendous way.

*Dick Cook (05:48):

It did. And it always had that ability to do it. And I think all the pieces had to come together at the right time. Mm-hmm <affirmative>. Had had to have the right management. You had the right people in place. Right. Creative, all those things had to work together.

Kevin Goetz (06:02):

Tell me about growing up in Bakersfield and Little Richard <laugh>. Is that what your mom called you?

Dick Cook (06:08):

Just when I was fat, I was called Richard <laugh>.

Kevin Goetz (06:10):

So you grew up with a two parent home?

Dick Cook (06:13):

We did until I was 12. I lost my dad when I was 12. And it was my mom, my sister, and myself. Is your sister still around? My sister is not, she passed away about six years ago.

Kevin Goetz (06:23):

Oh, I'm so sorry.

Dick Cook (06:24):

And my mom a couple years ago. So I'm the last one of that core group. But we lived out actually north of Bakersfield in a community called Oildale

Kevin Goetz (06:34):

Oildale. I know Oildale

Dick Cook (06:35):

And Oildale was home of Merle Haggard and Buck Owens and all the Bakersfield country sound that are

Kevin Goetz (06:42):

Cowboys out there.

Dick Cook (06:43):

Oh yeah. A lot of 'em. It was a product of the Dust Bowl.

Kevin Goetz (06:45):

And let's call it what it is. It was not a cosmopolitan place.

Dick Cook (06:50):

No, it is not. I've taken my daughters there many times and they're usually shocked and amazed. They said, you came from here, this is where you live, and all that. But it was a great place.

Kevin Goetz (07:00):

I was gonna ask you, was it a good place to grow up?

Dick Cook (07:02):

It was fantastic. The people are really, really salt of the earth. Wonderful people, honest people. 

Kevin Goetz (07:09):

Well, that's who you are, Dick. Of all the people that I know and have had the good fortune to get to know, there's such a decency about you. It just goes to your roots, your upbringing. You were also a baseball player.

Dick Cook (07:23):

I was. I played a lot of baseball. Yeah. It was a crazy time. When my dad died, I was 12 and my mom and my sister and my mom really wanted me to enjoy and do the things that boys do at that age and that will like to do. And I loved to play baseball. And my grandfather made a pitching machine for me that we had in our backyard. It happens to still be there. Where I grew up.

Kevin Goetz (07:53):

It would literally do what pitching machines throw out.

Dick Cook (07:55):

It was literally a pitching machine. He sold it. I can't honestly say he invented the pitching machine. I don't know that to be a fact, but I know that Spaulding thought he did <laugh> and he sold the rights to make the pitching machine to Spalding for a dollar because he thought that, you know, every kid should have the opportunity to have one and all that.

Kevin Goetz (08:15):

Clearly he was not from New York.

Dick Cook (08:17):

Yeah.

Kevin Goetz (08:17):

Where you go schmuck.

Dick Cook (08:19):

Yeah. Yeah. I was like, what? What are you doing here? So we lived a little outside of town. We had the room, he built it for me. I could go out there for hours and just hit baseballs. And my mom would sit out there and read a book by Al Campanis, the general manager of the Dodgers. And it was called How to Play Baseball the Dodger Way. Was that your team, by the way? That was my team. That was the team that I loved my whole life 'cause that was so close to us. But she read the book and she'd go to, you know, how to hit, how to bunt, how to hit to the opposite field, how to do all those things. And I'd practice by the hour. And so Kevin, to say I was a great player, I think I had about 5% ability.

Kevin Goetz (09:00):

But 95% passion. Yeah. And good intentions. 

Dick Cook (09:05):

And you know, Malcolm Gladwell, you know, 10,000 hours or whatever, I think I put in at least that amount hitting a baseball.

Kevin Goetz (09:11):

What position did you play?

Dick Cook (09:13):

I played shortstop in high school and then moved to second base when I went to college.

Kevin Goetz (09:17):

So you played at sc? I did. And listeners, I'm gonna regale you with some news here about the fact that Dick ended up owning his own baseball team. <laugh>. Can you tell us about that?

Dick Cook (09:29):

Well, Bruce Corwin, who owned Metropolitan Theaters when I got into distribution, old friend at Disney, Bruce Corwin was a great friend and a really super guy. And he owned all the theaters at that time in Palm Springs. And Bruce and I were having lunch one day and talking about things. He said, you know, I'm gonna make a deal. I'm gonna buy the Palm Springs Angels. 

Kevin Goetz (09:57):

And they were farm league, right?

Dick Cook (09:57):

They were a farm team. They were the A league. It's the lowest league you could be. There's a, there's aa, aaa, and then the major league. So this is the beginning, which is so much fun 'cause you get to have discoveries, right? It's just great. Yeah, it's just fun. And so he said, would you like to be a partner with me? And it wasn't any kind of money or anything like that. It was a small amount. And I said, oh, sure. And then did they go up to the Angels afterwards? They went to the AA team, which I think was in Texas someplace. And then aaa, Arizona, maybe? Arizona, yeah, I think they were in Arizona and aaa. 

Kevin Goetz (10:31):

So you promoted an American League team?

Dick Cook (10:34):

Yeah, <laugh>. I did. Then <laugh> it did then. You know, it was, it was just fun. And it was fun to go out there and watch everyone. And Bruce, because he was in the theater business there. The concessions of course were always really good. They had fantastic popcorn, they had great hot dogs and all this stuff, and it was just fun.

Kevin Goetz (10:51):

So let's go to, now your marketing job. You get at Disney. You're there for six, seven years,

Dick Cook (10:57):

Right?

Kevin Goetz (10:58):

Before you move into sales? Or are you now moved into sales? Towards distribution?

Dick Cook (11:05):

No, I wasn't in distribution. That came much later.

Kevin Goetz (11:08):

Oh, it did?

Dick Cook (11:09):

Yeah. What happened was Walt Disneyworld was opening up, they were taking a lot of management from Disneyland and moving them to Florida.

Kevin Goetz (11:17):

Sure.

*Dick Cook (11:18):

And so that just gave me the opportunity to kind of go up and be promoted really faster than I probably ever should have under normal conditions, because you're the one that's there. Oh, I guess better promote you up there. And Disney really had a philosophy then about promoting from within. They really liked the fact they've ingrained you into what Disney was all about. You understood what it was. You understood the culture, the brand, the culture and all that. So it was the thing to do. And so all of a sudden, you know, I'm 25 years old and I'm running sales at Disneyland and the opportunity to take on more and more responsibility and entertainment and creating special events and all that kind of stuff. So it was a pretty cool time. And again, I was working with some of the smartest, best people that I've ever worked with.

Kevin Goetz (12:06):

Who was running the studio when you started full-time there?

Dick Cook (12:10):

Ron Miller. What about distribution? Irving Ludwig, who was hired by Walt Disney and Roy Disney to run distribution. He was an

Kevin Goetz (12:19):

Institution. Where did you learn the trade

Dick Cook (12:22):

Of distribution? Well, when I went to the studio, that was in the end of 1976. And I went originally to figure out what Disney was going to do in this new thing called video and this brand new business called Pay Television.

Kevin Goetz (12:38):

So you're at one of the, what I call the modern disruption eras of our business.

Dick Cook (12:44):

very much,

Kevin Goetz (12:45):

Which turned out to be incredibly fortuitous and kept often the lights on.

Dick Cook (12:51):

Yes. Oh, very much so.

Kevin Goetz (12:52):

It was gonna be the death nail, right?

*Dick Cook (12:54):

Oh yeah. No, everyone thought it was gonna be over for the theatrical business. And it turned out to be the savior. And it's not dissimilar, frankly, to kind of where we are right now with the business.

Kevin Goetz (13:05):

I have a different theory about that though, is beyond a disruptor. The only problem is in this disruption period. I don't think it's as additive as it was then because now you have sort of no ancillary or very little ancillary opportunity, which I want to get into a little bit later in the discussion. But I did wanna ask you, you were about to tell us about the disruption and you were mentored by somebody who taught you the changing business then who was that?

*Dick Cook (13:37):

There were a couple of people. The CEO of the company at that time was Card Walker. Card Walker was handpicked by Walt Disney to succeed him. He was running what they call publicity, which was marketing at the time. He basically was just operation wise, running most of the television operation and all those things. And really, really talented, super smart CEO and never has really gotten the credit that he deserves. So much of what we talked about, the Disney explosion that took place, say in 1984 and beyond, was created because of things he did. He put the foundation in. A lot of people have looked back and said, oh, home video was exploding. Then why didn't he put Snow White on home video then? Well, it wasn't that we didn't know that. It wasn't that. He didn't know that. And he would say oftentimes, he said, well, why would we put it out when there are a hundred thousand players out there? Let's wait until there are 10 million players. And he was so right. Wow. That's visionary. Oh, he is a cash cow. Now what you're talking about the business today, the disruption, you're a thousand percent correct. It is different in the sense that it's not an additive. Basically with streaming, it's destroyed the DVD business. It's destroyed so much of syndication, it's destroyed a lot of cable. Oh, absolutely. It's really taken those away. And it hasn't replaced it

Kevin Goetz (15:11):

Well. That's just it. So we can't be accused of being old guys talking about the good old days.

Dick Cook (15:18):

Right.

*Kevin Goetz (15:18):

There is wonderful opportunity that has come from the streaming business, but it is a shift in philosophy mentality, and consumer usage. Like what I find so interesting about this particular disruption and why I don't think we're ever quote unquote going back Yeah. To there is no going back. It's only going forward. So if you're not on that train, you're gonna miss it. So I elected to be on it early and not say, oh my God, these streamers are killing the business. They're not killing the business. They're responding to what consumers have wanted for a long time.

*Dick Cook (15:54):

Absolutely. And when we look back again, you know, 20 years from now, it will have evolved into a much better business model than we are dealing with today. We're just going through that crazy period right now. Exactly. And it will shake itself out and it will become much more normal and all that. But you're right, he who fights technology is only fighting themselves.

Kevin Goetz (16:17):

At your own peril. I always say.

Dick Cook (16:18):

At your own peril. Absolutely. I mean, how many times do we have to learn that? It's crazy. You're not gonna beat it. You better find a way to work with it if you're gonna succeed and you're gonna be successful, you're a hundred percent right. Get on the bandwagon, figure it out.

Kevin Goetz (16:31):

Yeah.

Dick Cook (16:31):

And it may take some time. We're figuring it out.

Kevin Goetz (16:33):

I meet you in 1987, you’re head of distribution. I thought you were truly one of the greatest guys then. And even when you elevated to run the entire studio, you didn't change who you were. The nicest man. Always accessible, always treated everyone. I guess I say that about Bill Clinton, that they're the most important person in the room. I credit that. Now that I hear your, I was about to say your Midwestern roots, but your very wonderful small town roots and parents that instilled values in you. I'm curious to know how you made the transition as such a successful distribution executive for those many years into getting that call that you were gonna run the entire movie division. Did you lobby for it?

Dick Cook (17:19):

No, I did not. 

Kevin Goetz (17:20):

And I believe you, do you know what I mean? That's not who you are.

*Dick Cook (17:25):

I didn't, again, it was a set of people that I worked with that afforded me unbelievable access and opportunity. Who? Mostly Jeffrey Katzenberg, Rich Frank, Michael Eisner, Frank Wells, a colleague of yours, Bob Levin. There was a richness of talent there that were not selfish and were giving. And so you were invited into discussions and filmmaker meetings. You were invited to get to know these people. Wow. And way, way before I had a ranking too. And that really provided the entree to it. So you were a part of it. And you got to understand and know not just your segment of the business, but you got to know the entire business.

Kevin Goetz (18:16):

Isn’t that incredible? Wow. And so who would you consider of that bunch of people, the one that most believed in Dick Cook? Oh, that's hard. I thought you were gonna say Michael Eisner for sure, because he's the one that appointed you into that position.

*Dick Cook (18:32):

It was, and I worked for him for 20 years. Had an unbelievable relationship with Michael. Loved it. I had so much fun doing it. Michael though, was running the entire company. The studio was a part of that, but he had a lot of other things when A B, C came along and consumer products and the parks and all this stuff. So he wasn't just looking after the studio, he was looking after the whole company. And so we'd get that portion of it. I would say probably Jeffrey, because Jeffrey initially afforded me huge, huge opportunities. There was a span there for probably 10 years I talked to that man every single day for 10 years. What was his genius? I think he had several traits and qualities that were genius level. Certainly Jeffrey's extremely smart. I would say that Jeffrey gets it. He really gets it. And he gets it on a level that I think is maybe different than many folks get it. He gets it on a business level. A lot of people get that, but he gets it on a film goer level.

Kevin Goetz (19:45):

Like the consumer level. Yeah. People are not gonna like that. People are gonna like this.

*Dick Cook (19:49):

He's a movie goer. This is a guy who went to movies every single week, other people's movies. He went to see them. He went to see what they were doing, how they were doing it, who was doing it. Curiosity. Yeah. Oh, super curious. That and his perseverance. This guy, you know, you talk about you don't know someone until you're knocked down, you know, will they get up and stuff? He never goes down for a count.

Kevin Goetz (20:13):

Tell me about Michael Eisner. What was his brilliance?

*Dick Cook (20:17):

He has to be one of the most innately creative people around. He understands commercial. You can go back in his whole filmography and the things that he was responsible for and had done. Uh, he's got a great, great sense of what an audience is gonna like and what they're gonna enjoy. Not always right. I mean, he wasn't excited about Pirates of the Caribbean, you know, he wasn't excited about probably several of the movies.

Kevin Goetz (20:41):

Did you have to convince him?

*Dick Cook (20:43):

I did. How did you do it? Well, when it finally came down to it and it took him over and went through the storyboards with him. Who pitched it to you? Jerry Bruckheimer. Jerry was there. Gore Verbinski was there. And you know, we were kind of on that precipice of do it or is Johnny involved yet Johnny was involved, but we hadn't said, green light, go, we're gonna do this.

Kevin Goetz (21:09):

'cause it was a very expensive prospect.

*Dick Cook (21:11):

Well, it was expensive and it was a pirate movie. And to Michael's point, pirate movies have never done particularly well and especially recently at that time. And you want a guy who's been in art movies, he's never been in a big commercial movie and it's on the water and it's a period piece. What was the thing that turned him around? We went through the storyboards and I think the story worked well enough and captivated him enough. And I think he saw what it could be. And maybe it was, and all that. It was a nervous time. And remember the context, that particular moment, the company had been through a lot of fantastic years and all of a sudden we hit a little bit of a soft spot.

Kevin Goetz (22:00):

And let's just bring our listeners back to that time. We're talking the Renaissance with the Bette Midler movies and Pretty Woman and

Dick Cook (22:06):

Oh yeah, the animation was on fire.

Kevin Goetz (22:08):

The animation. Yeah. I mean, little Mermaid, Beauty and the Beast, Aladdin, Pocahontas and on and on.

Dick Cook (22:14):

Yeah. It was just a whole renaissance and animation. It was a renaissance really in our live action business.

Kevin Goetz (22:20):

I mean, the studio was on the brink of bankruptcy. I'm talking late seventies, early eighties.

Dick Cook (22:25):

Yeah, I don't know if it was quite that bad, but the company had stalled.

Kevin Goetz (22:29):

I had heard that Walt Disney made sure that the studio and the hospital had the same architecture, the actual studio, the animation building, the commissary, the theater.

Dick Cook (22:40):

Hold on. The original animation building. The original animation building, yeah.

Kevin Goetz (22:46):

Which I think is still called the animation building, but not the big huge thing off of the 134.

Dick Cook (22:50):

No, they were all built by the Army Corps of Engineers.

Kevin Goetz (22:54):

Wow.

Dick Cook (22:55):

And they're very basic. Yeah, they are. But they're kind of cool. And Walt helped design them, but the government had a proviso that in case of emergency, it could be turned into a hospital. Uh, so I have my story conflated a bit, Interesting. It does look alike architecturally when you think about it. Oh yeah. It looks like hospital wings. Well, that's the way it was. Absolutely. And then Walt had it positioned so that the animators when they were working would have natural light that would be coming in a little bit of best of both worlds. But when you walk through it and you see and going, oh, I get this in exchange for the Army Corps of Engineers building the buildings, Walt made training films for the military and there were some propaganda kind of films that were made and things like that. 

Kevin Goetz (23:47):

Again, thinking about the future, thinking about a plan B again. When we come back, we're gonna talk to Dick about the day he got the call to say that he was now gonna be running the whole shebang. We'll be back in a moment. If you are curious about how movies actually turn a profit, I've got something for you. My upcoming book How to Score in Hollywood dives into the intersection of creative instinct and audience insight and where the business of film meets the art of storytelling. The book is available for pre-order now on your favorite bookseller platform. I'm also putting together a book launch team and I'd love for you to be a part of it. We're looking for people to help spread the word ahead of our November release and also to leave a short book review after its release. In exchange you'll get early access to the book, exclusive behind the scenes content and more. Sign up to join my launch team or for book updates at KevinGoetz360.com. And as always, thank you for your support. We're back with the filmmakers chairman, Dick Cook. Dick, so lay the foundation please for us. Your wife, Bonnie?

Dick Cook (25:01):

Yes.

Kevin Goetz (25:01):

Uh, you have two girls?

Dick Cook (25:03):

Yes.

Kevin Goetz (25:03):

Elizabeth and Roxanne. And Roxanne. I wanted to say call out to Elizabeth, she's, I think up in the Bay Area now, but she was the newscaster in Palm Springs.

Dick Cook (25:14):

That's where she started.

Kevin Goetz (25:15):

Yes. And she's beautiful and wonderful. What does Roxanne do?

Dick Cook (25:18):

Roxanne is my little renaissance girl. Oh, she got married, gosh, a couple years ago. She's got a little boy now one, and she's doing great. She's a hairstylist. Where? In Pasadena. And she's doing fantastic.

Kevin Goetz (25:35):

How many grandkids do you have?

Dick Cook (25:36):

I have three boys. Oh, three little boys. I had two girls and then I have three grandsons. Bo is the oldest. He's nine, almost 10. And then Jack, who's five, they belong to Elizabeth and her husband Brandon. And then Roxanne has a little boy just over one.

Kevin Goetz (25:53):

So the kids are home and Bonnie and you get a phone call and the phone call is gonna give you this incredible job. I just want to know what that's like for you when you got that call and who made that call?

Dick Cook (26:06):

Well, it had been coming,

Kevin Goetz (26:08):

Well you mean the rumor mill around town?

Dick Cook (26:10):

Yes. And I had been sort of doing the job for about six months before I got that call. I never thought about it as being a tryout.

Kevin Goetz (26:21):

Was it?

*Dick Cook (26:21):

Well, I'm not really sure. <laugh>, I've never been quite sure about it. It may have been. I never really thought about it that way because I've been around for so long and all the things have been fairly easy. But when Jeffrey left, Joe Roth came in and Joe Roth had the job and we had a phenomenal relationship with Joe. Joe and I worked together when he was with caravan pictures with Roger Birnbaum and Jon Glickman. And so we had a shorthand going through it. And at the time he promoted me to, I think chairman of the motion picture group, which kind of included production and distribution and marketing and all of that. And really afforded me just gigantic opportunities to be inside the tent and really understand it. And that was getting my graduate degree, if you will, in the motion picture business.

Kevin Goetz (27:10):

Did you have to do the stock calls?

Dick Cook (27:13):

Neither one of us did. Michael did all that. We had to do presentations for the board and had to do a lot of those and stock analyst presentations Sure. And things like that. And Joe was so giving to me and really afforded me the opportunity of really learning filmmaking and to a different level.

Kevin Goetz (27:31):

Well listen, you inspired this trust in everyone you come in contact with. I'm curious to know once you were in that decision making process, <laugh>, you strike me as a guy who doesn't welcome conflict. Doesn't like conflict yet. I'm sure there were times when you really had to deliver some bad news.

Dick Cook (27:51):

Yeah.

Kevin Goetz (27:52):

Can you tell us about a time you remember where you really felt, this is one of the hardest things I'm ever gonna have to do?

Dick Cook (28:00):

Well, I think most of it for me was when it affected people.

Kevin Goetz (28:03):

Of course.

Dick Cook (28:04):

When it affected those that you'd been working with. If we had a cutback or layoffs or anything like that, those were always painful.

Kevin Goetz (28:11):

Sure.

Dick Cook (28:11):

Because you're talking about real people, you're talking about friends.

Kevin Goetz (28:15):

I find that the hardest thing in my business as well.

Dick Cook (28:17):

Yeah, it is. I think if you care about them and you care about the business and you care about the people, and a lot of times it wasn't that they were doing something wrong.

Kevin Goetz (28:26):

Right. The company needed to consolidate or whatever.

Dick Cook (28:29):

It's Yeah. This is, you know, things that were beyond anybody's control and you just had to cut back. And those were the most painful for me.

Kevin Goetz (28:36):

What about movies that went way over budget, for example? I'm sure you encountered a bunch of those.

Dick Cook (28:41):

Yeah.

Kevin Goetz (28:41):

And those are not fun conversations either.

*Dick Cook (28:43):

They're not. And depending on who you're talking to, those can be either fruitful or they can be ugly or they can go a lot of different ways. And honestly, being in distribution and having to make those Saturday and Sunday phone calls when a movie does not perform is probably the greatest education you can get. You bet it is. And to have to do it because it's painful. There's just no way around it.

Kevin Goetz (29:09):

Right. Listeners, you're about to tell a filmmaker a star their fate on a Friday night, and it's rough.

Dick Cook (29:17):

It's tough. And you know, they've worked really hard. Everyone has done their best. No one goes out to make a bad movie. No one goes out to make a Fox office flop. And when it does, you're faced with having to deliver the news and you're trying to deliver it the best way you can. But it's their livelihood too.

Kevin Goetz (29:34):

Have you ever lost it with someone?

Dick Cook (29:36):

Yeah. 

Kevin Goetz (29:38):

You mean over a business something or a…

Dick Cook (29:39):

What do you mean? When I'm upset about something?

Kevin Goetz (29:41):

Like really? Yeah.

Dick Cook (29:42):

Yeah. Really lost it. Yeah. Just once. Well, can you tell us? I can't tell you who, but tell us the story. It was a person that, uh, business with a studio and came in and had a meeting with a group in our marketing area.

Kevin Goetz (29:59):

Yep.

*Dick Cook (29:59):

And was extremely disrespectful to you personally. Not just to me, to them. Some people that couldn't and wouldn't stand up to them. And it was being a bully. And I had left the meeting to go someplace else. And then it got back to me about an hour later, they were still in this meeting. And it had gotten just horrible in what had been said and what had been done.

Kevin Goetz (30:27):

Did they patch you through the phone? Is that what happened?

Dick Cook (30:29):

This was the person that came down and actually found me. It had gotten to be so ugly.

Kevin Goetz (30:33):

So at this time you came back to the studio?

Dick Cook (30:34):

I did. I was, I were at the studio. I was just in a different part.

Kevin Goetz (30:37):

And they came down, had the audacity to come back to your office after that terrible meeting to try to ream you further.

Dick Cook (30:43):

And they went more and more and more. And so I went back into the meeting and told 'em to leave the studio. Never come back.

Kevin Goetz (30:52):

<laugh>. Wow.

Dick Cook (30:53):

Yeah. That was coming from me. It was pretty a big deal.

Kevin Goetz (30:55):

I was just gonna say, I just want to tell listeners right now, Dick is a little bit squirmish here in his seat. <laugh>. He doesn't feel comfortable because that is just innately who he is. Oh. Just this guy who wants to make everyone feel good and find resolution and solutions. So this must have been a real asshole.

Dick Cook (31:14):

Yeah. Yeah. It was.

Kevin Goetz (31:15):

It wasn't.

Dick Cook (31:16):

It wasn't much fun.

Kevin Goetz (31:16):

Did you ever get a major apology? I've got a few minors, and by the way, let's say to everyone listening to this, that persona on grata on a studio is a big thing because people have to suck up a lot in this business. But people say, I've said it three times to people, I've said, lose my number.

Dick Cook (31:34):

Yeah.

Kevin Goetz (31:35):

I've said that three times. I can count 'em.

Dick Cook (31:38):

Yeah.

Kevin Goetz (31:38):

Because you know me and Yeah, that's, there's always, that's not you. Yeah. And I'm also, I'm a vendor man. You know, I don't wanna give up work. Don't. No, that's not what you do. No. But there are some people that push you because of the ethical or moral Yeah. Crossing that line. Yeah. That you're like, you know what? Life's too short.

Dick Cook (31:56):

Yeah. I felt that that was the case. It'd gone to line. And you really don't appreciate those that can't protect themselves. You betcha. You know? And to have them taken advantage of.

Kevin Goetz (32:07):

And Well, your lieutenants man. I'm gonna go with some names like Chuck Viane. I mean, there's so many in the distribution business that revere you. But you inspired this and earned this tremendous loyalty by your teams for years. We're not talking about for a short time. We're talking about this is something you nurtured and built and it was very meaningful for you.

*Dick Cook (32:33):

Well it is. It was then and it is today. You know, I think I looked at the motion picture business as being a game. And it was work, but it was work. I loved, loved being in it, loved doing it, loved all the different aspects of it. But I looked at it just so you don't kind of lose yourself in this whole thing is it's a bit of a game.

Kevin Goetz (32:56):

What are one of your proudest moments? 

Dick Cook (32:58):

Well, You love winning.

Kevin Goetz (32:59):

Well, that's where I was going with this. And I think that's where you were heading. Can you tell me a moment that you were just basking in, I helped manifest this, I did this, I was really responsible for this. What was probably your best and proudest accomplishments?

Dick Cook (33:14):

Boy, that's a hard one. That is a hard one. That's a really tough one. We were blessed with a lot of, see he listeners, he can't say I, he said we <laugh>. Yeah.

Kevin Goetz (33:25):

Because you know, it's not a one man show.

*Dick Cook (33:27):

No, it's not. None of us could do it by ourselves. It takes a great team. And the team part of it for me was the most fun.The people, Chuck, you could mention Gary Weaver. Go down the list. Down the list of all of the people, the Dana Lombardo's of the world, all the people that work Terry Presses of the world, and um, you know, Oren Aviv, oh, Peter Adby, Peter Adby, you know, Oren Aviv. You know, all these people that were there and were fantastic at what they do. And it's a team. I mean, you're a family.

Kevin Goetz (34:01):

I always felt that even though we weren't personally close, that you always thought I was on your team.

Dick Cook (34:07):

Yeah, well I did.

Kevin Goetz (34:08):

And I felt, and Joe and Catherine felt that.

Dick Cook (34:10):

Absolutely. When I got to know you. And before that, Joe and Catherine, you know, it was really at the beginning of the research screenings and you know, doing all the tracking. The tracking and all the things, you know, it was all new to all of us.

Kevin Goetz (34:26):

Right.

Dick Cook (34:26):

And we sort of learned it together.

Kevin Goetz (34:28):

That's right.

Dick Cook (34:29):

And we went through the thing and it was exciting. It was fun.

Kevin Goetz (34:32):

It's a great way to put it. Did you think of one particular thing while you were at the studio that your team and you did that has now still left a mark?

Dick Cook (34:40):

Gosh, you know, the last, what, seven or eight years they've remade just about every movie I think we made. So that's kind of cool.

Kevin Goetz (34:47):

That is kind of cool.

Dick Cook (34:48):

It's kind of fun to see them remake and or do sequels to movies that we made that never dreamed that they would have a sequel to it.

Kevin Goetz (34:55):

Well, I would like to spend the last part of our time on this notion of the business of green lighting movies. The book that I have coming out very soon is called How to Score in Hollywood. And of course it's the research and the business decisions that are made before green light often and how those can really be the most important and are the most important decisions that you will make. I truly believe that every movie if made and marketed for the right price, should make money. So when you approached a budget, how did you go about the process of coming up with the right number? Taking into account the ancillary mm-hmm. The windowing with your deep distribution knowledge, the date, the spend, the marketing spend. What went into your process when you got a movie, any movie coming across your desk and you had to make that decision? Take us through that.

*Dick Cook (35:54):

Yeah, it's everything that you just named. You take a look at that particular movie. Who is that movie going to appeal to you? Try to gather all the information that you can about what's the upside for it through comparable data, you know, through comps. And sometimes you can disagree. I think it's much bigger than that or less than that, or whatever you see, you read something and you feel like, okay, that's a little movie. It's a good brand builder. We can probably make a little bit on it. It's gonna be fine. That's one thing.

Kevin Goetz (36:33):

But you weren't in the business of singles to use the baseball analogy. You needed to make triples and home runs because you had a huge overhead.

Dick Cook (36:42):

No question. That was the main part of the business. We did make a few of those. Some of the sports movies we did. Remember the Titans or The Rookie or some of those that we made that weren't necessarily giant blockbusters, but they made money.

Kevin Goetz (36:56):

Call out to my friend Mark Ciardi, by the way, who is a dear friend. Yes. And he did a bunch of them for Disney.

Dick Cook (37:02):

You bet. You bet. I mean, we

Kevin Goetz (37:03):

Million Dollar Arm, McFarland.

Dick Cook (37:05):

Yeah. You know, they're all in their own way. Maybe not giant moneymakers, but they're great brand builders. They're great to have during the times when you don't have the blockbuster to put in there. And they, they go on.

Kevin Goetz (37:18):

They're on brand.

Dick Cook (37:19):

They're on brand. They're very, very important. And they play important roles. And they have lives that live for years and years and years on television and DVD and all different kinds of ways now on streaming.

Kevin Goetz (37:32):

What's one of the movies that you lost sleepover because it was a huge crapshoot?

*Dick Cook (37:37):

Well, one of the ones that I always remember, because it taught me a few lessons, it was The Alamo and I was a great fan and champion of that movie. growing up, I saw Davy Crockett’s The Alamo, of course with Disney. We had Fess Parker that played Davy Crockett in a whole series. And I loved the characters, I loved the folks that were in it. And we all had read the script and thought it was just terrific. Wanted to do it in the worst way. John Lee Hancock directing did a wonderful job with it. Billy Bob Thornton played Davey Crockett. Not exactly, maybe the guy you would've picked to do it, especially coming after a John Wayne and a Fess Parker and all that.

Kevin Goetz (38:23):

Fair play

Dick Cook (38:24):

And all that. And had we had what you're doing now in having your audiences looking at movies and projects before they go in, we probably would've caught, there was a classic,

Kevin Goetz (38:35):

Tell me what was it?

*Dick Cook (38:36):

You cannot kill your protagonist at the end of the second act and think you have any place to go. You don't. The movie's over. Oh, when David Crockett met his demise at the Alamo at the end of the second act, having Sam Houston in the third act make his remember the Alamo. Who cared?

Kevin Goetz (38:59):

You're right. Pre green light testing would have picked up on that.

Dick Cook (39:02):

I think so. Yeah. You're a hundred percent right. I think so.

Kevin Goetz (39:05):

I love that you're saying that. And you're right, we didn't really do it then.

Dick Cook (39:08):

And it was a giant fall that quite honestly, you know, we had, there were dozens of people that had read it.

Kevin Goetz (39:15):

Did you ever feel that, Dick, that there was something in the DNA at that time and you said, I should have spoken up more so I should have…

Dick Cook (39:26):

No one spoke up really. And part of that was, it was really well written. You have to understand it was really well done and it wasn't noticeable. But I think you would've come out in one of your studies about it. Because when you go through it and you read it and you actually are acting it out and everything, okay, that's a big moment. And he had a big scene there where he meets his demise. It was dramatic.

Kevin Goetz (39:55):

That's the end of a movie, not the end of the second act.

*Dick Cook (39:58):

Exactly. It was the end of the movie and <laugh> a whole third of the movie to go. And you'd lost him and you couldn't get it back. And revenge is okay, but it doesn't beat love. It just can't hold up.

Kevin Goetz (40:12):

What was the best example of that Friday night call that you got where you were so excited, so happy? Because you heard a number that you literally went, we did what? Gimme a movie like that.

Dick Cook (40:30):

Well, there were quite a few of them. A couple of them that come to mind, um,

Kevin Goetz (40:35):

So far exceeded your expectations.

Dick Cook (40:36):

Yeah. The first one was Splash because we'd never had a movie open up like that.

Kevin Goetz (40:44):

What did it open to? Do you remember?

Dick Cook (40:45):

I can't remember. It was probably, it was probably like $12 million or something

Kevin Goetz (40:48):

Like that. But we, today's dollars,

Dick Cook (40:49):

You know, it would've been, yeah, you know, something different, but,

Kevin Goetz (40:51):

But you probably spent not a lot on it. Whatever. People just loved the concept. Huh?

Dick Cook (40:55):

Kevin, It was so funny. We came in on Saturday morning. Now we didn't have computers back then. We were figuring it out by a handheld, Hewlett Packard, little handheld. They were doing tick marks and we had like a, a small sampling. 

Kevin Goetz (41:12):

There was no comScore.

Dick Cook (41:13):

No. We had a small sampling. I'll never forget it. We're in the office and it was probably 7:00 AM on Saturday morning. And we're plugging in these numbers and we're looking and we're looking at them. They're going, no, no, no, we can’t.

Kevin Goetz (41:27):

hold on. I'm sorry. Lemme set the stage further. You can hear that calculator going,

*Dick Cook (41:31):

Oh yeah, you're hearing the calculator, right? And you go, no, it calculates to however million, million dollars. We say no, we can't say that. Everybody will laugh us out of town. You thought there was a mistake? There had to be. And then the guys were going, nah, I don't think this is a mistake. And well we can't say that today. Maybe we'll up it tomorrow a little bit. So we were very, very conservative. We took it and we reduced it by more than half. We said, no, we can't say that. And we did. So the next day we come in Sunday morning.

Kevin Goetz (41:58):

And it was not a fluke.

Dick Cook (41:59):

It was not a fluke. It had grown tremendously. Now all of a sudden now we're really embarrassed and not sure what to say. It was one of those things where, oh my gosh, who do we,

Kevin Goetz (42:10):

What did you say?

Dick Cook (42:12):

We said, I think we have a chance to do more <laugh>, but we, we don't have a big enough sampling.

Kevin Goetz (42:17):

I'm thinking of the old Jeff Blake. Was there anyone better than Jeff Blake in his quips?

Dick Cook (42:22):

Yeah.

Kevin Goetz (42:23):

Writing his box office?

Dick Cook (42:24):

No.

Kevin Goetz (42:25):

Well, it's sustained today. Looks like we got some legs here. But he'd, in pithy ways, he had the greatest sense of humor when it came to the numbers discussion. And you know, we'd get facts after facts. Oh yeah. I remember Catherine having to, when I would stay over her house or I'd be over there early in the morning, she spent half of that morning going through the exit polls, sending those out and the tracking numbers early before, I mean, it was just like these, what We did this by hand <laugh>, we look how we laugh about it. 

Dick Cook (42:58):

Now, there was a filmmaker at one point when the movie just, it did okay. It wasn't a disaster, but it was just barely okay. And in the conversation with him, I'm trying to put it in the reasonable thing, saying, you know, it did fine. Well what's fine mean? And he kept pushing me and pushing me. Finally I said something. It was, I, I just, I don't know why I said it, but well look in an ocean full of Cs, you're a B minus <laugh>. And it was, it was like on an exit poll. And yeah. And everyone was kind of like,

Kevin Goetz (43:32):

By the way, you and I both know which might as well be a Yeah, yeah, yeah. Exactly. Yeah. It's like, was there um, an example of a gross that came in that you were expecting tracking, say, was gonna tell a different story and it just completely underperformed and you were like, wait, repeat that? You mean that's the Friday gross, right? <laugh> And they're like, no, Dick, that's the weekend gross. Yeah. Usually gimme a name. Gimme, I'm trying to think, I'm trying to think of what it might be. This is where I begin to push Dick just a bit outta his comforts. No, no. I'm trying to, I know it's hard. It's hard to remember. 'cause there's so many movies and you've worked on hundreds,

Dick Cook (44:11):

You work on hundreds of movies and

Kevin Goetz (44:13):

Usually it's the person that you know, you have to call to tell 'em the news. And they're like, what?

*Dick Cook (44:18):

You know, you remember the really big disasters or if something funny happened along the way, what you don't try to do and what you quickly and you have to, in this business have a very short memory about it. Move on. By the way, the greatest of that that I've ever worked with was Jeffrey and Michael.

Kevin Goetz (44:36):

Absolutely.

Dick Cook (44:37):

And they were,

Kevin Goetz (44:37):

I've heard that by everyone.

Dick Cook (44:38):

Absolutely. The best. I've called and both of them. Yeah. To their credit, they say, look, okay next. That's right. Literally they say next. And sometimes Jeffrey would even say, don't let it ruin your weekend.

Kevin Goetz (44:53):

Is that after or before? He said, if you don't come in <laugh> on Saturday, don't bother coming in on Sunday.

Dick Cook (44:59):

On Sunday. Yeah. Something like that. Yeah. But comes from experience.

Kevin Goetz (45:03):

Those, it's just a time and a, you know, Dick, I look at you and I'm reminded of so many small things that we have seen each other and have done together over the last decades. And it's four decades.

Dick Cook (45:18):

Yeah.

Kevin Goetz (45:19):

And I am so grateful for you coming in and talking to me here today and for sharing just a little bit of that nostalgia and what you went through. It's a great narrative. The little train who could.

Dick Cook (45:32):

Yeah.

Kevin Goetz (45:33):

The little boy who could and who did it, started as a Disneyland ride operator and runs the entire studio. Thanks again.

Dick Cook (45:44):

It's been great. Thanks for inviting me.

Kevin Goetz (45:49):

To our listeners, I hope you enjoyed our interview today. For more filmmaking and audience testing stories, I invite you to check out my book, Audienceology at Amazon or through my website at kevingoetz360.com. You can also follow me on my social media. Next time on Don't Kill the Messenger, I'll welcome two time Academy Award nominated producer Stacey Sher. Until then, I'm Kevin Goetz. And to you, our listeners, I appreciate you being part of the movie making process. Your opinions matter.

Host: Kevin Goetz
Guest: Dick Cook
Producer: Kari Campano
Writers: Kevin Goetz, Darlene Hayman, and Kari Campano
Audio Engineer: Gary Forbes (DG Entertainment)