Podcast: Don't Kill the Messenger with Movie Research Expert Kevin Goetz
Guest: Bob Levin

Interview Transcript:

Announcer (00:03):

From script to screen, every film is brought to life by visionary creatives and executives all sharing one mission – to captivate the audience. Hosted by award-winning movie strategist Kevin Goetz, our podcast Don't Kill The Messenger, offers a filmmaking masterclass through intimate conversations with Hollywood's most influential voices. And now your host, Kevin Goetz.

Kevin Goetz (00:28):

Before joining me at Screen Engine, my guest today capped two remarkable careers. One as a prominent advertising executive in Chicago, and another one as a leading marketing executive in Hollywood at Disney, Sony, and MGM,helping launch hundreds of films and redefining how movies are sold around the world. Before becoming President and COO of Screen Engine, he came to meet with me at my office as a consultant. I was sitting behind my desk, and he was across from me, but I'd been so used to him being my revered client. I actually felt uncomfortable sitting there, so I made him switch chairs with me. Today. Bob Levin is my ideal counterpart, and together we've built an award-winning global insights data and strategy firm serving the entertainment industry and beyond. He's also my collaborator on my upcoming book, How to Score in Hollywood, my partner in crime, and a great and dear friend, Bob Levin <laugh>, so excited to have you here.

Bob Levin (01:45):

Excited to be here. Just, I think I just listened to my eulogy or something.

Kevin Goetz (01:48):

<laugh>. Yeah. Well, let's talk about your humble beginnings, because there's so much to capture here. So I wanna say that this is an extraordinary sort of third act of a career because you had a full almost 20-year career in advertising.

Bob Levin (02:05):

Right.

Kevin Goetz (02:06):

In Chicago, right. What did you do there?

Bob Levin (02:08):

I graduated college at University of Illinois with a degree in advertising from the journalism school, not the business school. Wanted to be a writer at that point in the advertising agency business. Got a job at the hottest agency in America at that point, Doyle Dane Bernbach in New York at $50 a week. That was Volkswagen and Levy's Rye Bread and all those great campaigns. And I couldn't take the job because it was, hold on, I wanna say

Kevin Goetz (02:37):

<laugh>,hold on, I wanna say those great campaigns. Volkswagen and Levy's Rye Bread.

Bob Levin (02:41):

Well, there were a whole bunch of other things. I know it, but I couldn't take it, 'cause it was $50 a week and I was getting married right outta college to Bonnie. So I had to take a job and I took a job as a catalog copywriter at SearsRoebuck and Company when they had all the big catalogs. And first day at the job, I went to lunch with guys who had been there 10, 15 years. And they were all talking about how much they hated their job and they couldn't wait. 

Kevin Goetz (03:08):

Oh my God. That was the catalog. There was no other catalog. Right, right. Am I right?

Bob Levin (03:09):

That was it. The Christmas wish book. But I wound up in the hardware department writing before Tool and Die sets, and I had no idea what a tool and die set even was. And you wrote like copy. Copy. Yeah. They had a whole system. They had a whole crazy system.

Kevin Goetz (03:26):

How'd you get elevated from that?

Bob Levin (03:28):

Well, I had this lunch and these guys are going, I can't wait to get out of here. There's a horrible place. And I realized unless I did something to get out of there, I was gonna be there 10 or 15 years and be one of those guys sitting, one of those guys. So I immediately started looking for a job and found a job at the Natural Gas Pipeline Company of America as a public relations and advertising assistant. And then Vietnam hit, I had to go into the National Guard to escape the draft. So I left for six months.

Kevin Goetz (03:58):

That was clever. You never had to leave the United States?

Bob Levin (04:01):

I never had to leave the United States, but I had to live through the 68 National Convention. Oh, you've told me that. That's some serious stuff, right? Oh yeah. I had to live through all of the, if you look at the riots, pictures, the riots, I was one of those guys with a bayonet in front of the Conrad Hilton Hotel separating the police from the demonstrators.

Kevin Goetz (04:21):

How many demonstrators did you take down?

Bob Levin (04:23):

<laugh> None. It was really bad. It was a very bad era for me. And eventually history when those kids got shot at Kent State, oh boy. And they were gonna call us out to go to Northwestern. We're very divergent from what you asked the question. But I said, I can't go anymore. I can't do it. And my conscience had just gotten to me and thank God my conscience wasn't tested and we never went to Northwestern. So I went to work for them. Eventually, when I came back from basic training, I was looking to get into the advertising agency business. And fortunately, because I was a public relations person by title at this natural gas pipeline Company of America, an agency needed a public relations guy. And I took a job at an ad agency as their public relations person and quickly turned that into a job in account management.

Kevin Goetz (05:15):

Where?

Bob Levin (05:16):

A small boutique agency called Rink Wells. Ah. And then I partly

Kevin Goetz (05:20):

Kinda learning all this stuff. I didn't know about all these smaller jobs to get to becoming a real account manager.

Bob Levin (05:25):

Yeah.

Kevin Goetz (05:25):

A major firm.

Bob Levin (05:26):

Right. And then I moved from there to another very hot agency that was doing things like screaming yellow zonkers and all these, how much are you making at this point a week? My first paycheck is a catalog copywriter. You got paid in cash and you here, I'm a college graduate. You get lined up in front of the Pay Master every week and they give you an envelope with your pay in it.

Kevin Goetz (05:50):

You only see that in old movies.

Bob Levin (05:51):

I know. And I took home $96 a week.

Kevin Goetz (05:55):

Well, it was better than the 50 as you said.

Bob Levin (05:57):

Yeah.

Kevin Goetz (05:57):

Now, did Bonnie work?

Bob Levin (05:59):

Yeah, she was a teacher.

Kevin Goetz (06:00):

And you started a family not too far thereafter.

Bob Levin (06:02):

Yes. I was a very young dad. I was a dad at 23. Wow. And you had Jordan.

Kevin Goetz (06:07):

Jordan Levin, who would become the head of the WB network. Right, right. And then of course, Spencer. And then later on in a, after Spencer Spencer, a second wife. Spencer. Spencer, yeah. Who is a terrific guy. 

Bob Levin (06:20):

Well, thank you. They're all terrific. So that led to me getting offered a job at McCann Erickson. And that started my career in the big agency business. My big agency experience was McCann and then Needham Harper and Sears, which became

Kevin Goetz (06:36):

Oh, at Needham Needham.

Bob Levin (06:36):

DDB Needham. Ahuh. So I'm eventually a management supervisor, which is the highest level of account management at Needham at that point. Managing the Sears account when Sears was a huge account. It was a huge national.

Kevin Goetz (06:51):

So you went from Sears to Sears? 

Bob Levin (06:52):

Back to Sears. So I went from Sears as a catalog copywriter into the Sears boardroom.

Kevin Goetz (06:58):

Well, so this is the Dick Cook story, and I think you heard my Dick Cook episode where he started as a monorail or steam engine operator. And then became head of the studio. So you had a friend in college, a good friend, Rich Frank. He was such a good friend that you were the best man at his wedding.

Bob Levin (07:16):

I was the best man at his wedding.

Kevin Goetz (07:18):

One day you get a phone call, right? 

*Bob Levin (07:19):

So I met Needham and I get a phone call and it's Rich. And he says, how you doing? And I don't know if you're aware, but I just went with Michael Eisner and Jeffrey Katzenberg from Paramount over to Disney. And were looking for someone to come in and run worldwide marketing for the movie studio. Do you know anybody? And I didn't particularly like LA as a place to come to. And I wasn't one of those film fans that was just, oh my God, this is the best job that could ever happen. So I said, well, I'll look around. And he said, okay. And he would call me back two or three times. And he tells the story that about the third or fourth time he called, I asked, well, what does that job pay? And he said, well, if you wanna know what that job pays, get in an airplane, come out here and talk to Michael and Jeffrey. And I came out and talked to Michael and Jeffrey and came away with the idea of, well, I gotta take this job. I mean, this is like an unbelievable opportunity. What was, what was the pay? 250,000 a year <laugh>.

Kevin Goetz (08:25):

What were you making a year at that point?

Bob Levin (08:26):

170.

Kevin Goetz (08:28):

Okay. So it was not a huge.

Bob Levin (08:29):

No.

Kevin Goetz (08:30):

But it

Bob Levin (08:30):

Was a huge,

Kevin Goetz (08:32):

It was a big deal. Plus bonuses, let's face it.

Bob Levin (08:34):

Plus bonuses plus stock. I mean, the stock options were crazy.

Kevin Goetz (08:37):

But remember where Disney was at that point? Let's remind our listeners,

Bob Levin (08:41):

I think at that point when I joined, it was $8 a share. And it split like five times, I think.

Kevin Goetz (08:49):

And how about the fact that Disney was about to go through the Renaissance?

Bob Levin (08:54):

Yes.

Kevin Goetz (08:54):

And you were about to be part of it.

Bob Levin (08:56):

Yes.

Kevin Goetz (08:56):

That is so exciting. What was that like for you?

*Bob Levin (09:00):

Well, it was an amazing period of time because here you had this very strong entertainment brand name Disney that had lied sort of fallow since Walt Disney had died. It just been maintained. It hadn't had much growth and in come this incredible cadre of leadership from Paramount who inherit the name and have all the opportunity to try to grow it. And brought in an entire new team of executives. So it was like a bunch of new hotshots inheriting this great brand name. And no one dragging you. No one said, well, we don't do it that way here. None of that stuff that so often happens.

Kevin Goetz (09:40):

New frontier.

Bob Levin (09:40):

New Frontier. We were all excited. We're working our asses off and loving what we're doing and having great success almost out of the box, which was,

Kevin Goetz (09:51):

What were the early successes?

Bob Levin (09:53):

Well, I remember the first movie that I was fully involved with from production all the way through, was Down and Out in Beverly Hills.

Kevin Goetz (10:01):

Oh, the best.

Bob Levin (10:02):

You know, Bette Midler and Nick Nolte and Richard Dreyfus. And I remember sitting at the old Bruin theater opening night Friday night, Jeffrey Katzenberg sitting next to me on the bench in the old Bruin theater. And there's a line around the block and he says, don't get used to this. This isn't the way it normally happens. So enjoy this success, but get ready for this not to happen. And I think, as I recall, we had almost 17 straight successes after that.

Kevin Goetz (10:34):

Unbelievable. Yeah. It was an unbelievable run. I mean, come on. And we're talking Little Mermaid.

Bob Levin (10:39):

Beauty and the Beast. We're talking The Lion King. We're talking pretty woman. We're talking

Kevin Goetz (10:44):

Big business.

Bob Levin (10:45):

Big business. Dead Poets Society. Ruthless people. Ruthless people. I mean, just a run of just great, great movies.

Kevin Goetz (10:52):

Unbelievable. And you were really a tremendous part of that.

Bob Levin (10:57):

Well.

Kevin Goetz (10:57):

You then stay there for 11 years.

Bob Levin (11:02):

Yes. I stayed there and lived through the Shakespearean drama, as I like to refer to it, when Frank Wells, who I always said was sort of the fulcrum that kept a bunch of egos in check in check, thank you. And when he was killed, sort of things went a little haywire.

Kevin Goetz (11:23):

He was killed in a helicopter crash.

Bob Levin (11:24):

Right. Helicopter crash, snow skiing. And the helicopter didn't make it off the mountain, but things sort of got outta check. Jeffrey and Michael started to go at each other. There was an undercurrent with Roy Disney, and eventually Michael fired Jeffrey. And things started to change. Joe Roth came in to head the studio. Joe Roth and I did not get along well, I was out.

Kevin Goetz (11:51):

Michael didn't let you go though.

Bob Levin (11:53):

No. Michael called me in the office and he said, I don't know what to do. You've been a great head of marketing, but I just brought in Joe to run the studio and he doesn't want you to be his head of marketing, but I don't want you to leave the company. So I went on Michael's staff and I was…

Kevin Goetz (12:06):

How long did that last?

Bob Levin (12:07):

Well, lasted a year. I mean, not a staff person.

Kevin Goetz (12:10):

No, no.

Bob Levin (12:11):

And so I started to look for something else and an opportunity opened up at Columbia, Sony Pictures Entertainment to come in and run worldwide marketing. Where did you succeed? Sid Ganis. Aha. And you were there for four or five years. You had a good run there. I mean, you had first billion dollar box office here the studio ever had. Walked in on Jerry Maguire. And we just had, you know, great many successes.

Kevin Goetz (12:36):

I know too much about you and I know which stories are interesting, but just take a couple here. Let's take Jerry Maguire. Not the easiest marketing exercise right out of the gate. One would think so it was a bit of a feathered fish, wasn't it?

*Bob Levin (12:51):

Yes. And when I walked in, the basic strategy was selling it primarily as a sports movie built around this agent. And I saw it differently. I saw it more as a built around the Jerry Maguire character and his search for identity and that it had some humor in it, but it was also a really good romantic story. And I saw a real opportunity to get both a male and female audience in, change the strategy. Also <laugh>, there was a great moment there, because I had worked on several movies with Tom at Disney, and I was the new guy in town at Sony, and he showed up for a marketing meeting unannounced. And he walked in and embraced me.

Kevin Goetz (13:36):

Lemme guess, threw his arms around you.

Bob Levin (13:37):

Yeah. Threw his arms with a big hug. He's the best. Bob, I'm so happy you're here. Well, it was like, I was a made man. Tom Cruise says, I'm so happy I'm here. That was like a made man. It really elevated people to think, well this guy may have something. Then we went on with great success with Jerry Maguire.

Kevin Goetz (13:53):

And he knew that that would have that impact. That's part of his brilliance, you know?

Bob Levin (13:58):

Yeah.

Kevin Goetz (13:58):

His galvanizing and making people feel really good about himself.

Bob Levin (14:00):

And then we had a, you know, Adam Sandler, we had a huge success with the movie he did. Big Daddy.

Kevin Goetz (14:05):

Yeah. But that was like you elevated his brand to a whole nother level.

Bob Levin (14:09):

Yeah. And then during that period of time, I had any number of different battles or conflicts or discussions with the MPAA, which has to approve marketing material. And I wanted to have Adam and the boy that he's taking care of in that movie peeing against the wall of a building. And they said, well, you can't do that. And I just,

Kevin Goetz (14:30):

I had to live with that because my husband worked on that for you. He was your senior vice president of creative advertising.

Bob Levin (14:36):

And it was his idea.

Kevin Goetz (14:37):

Well, you supported him. And obviously then I'd hear about it every night. Like, my God, those sons of guns, they won't let me actually show the pee.

Bob Levin (14:46):

Right. I wanted to do, you know, remember when there were these huge standees and movie theaters, those cardboard things. I wanted <laugh>. I wanted to do one where we would have recirculating water as pee. I love it.

Kevin Goetz (15:02):

You know, so smart though.

Bob Levin (15:03):

Yeah. We never got to that level of approval.

Kevin Goetz (15:06):

I wanted stop here for two seconds just to talk about some of your philosophy and the kind of precepts that you have always lived by when it comes to marketing. Marketing, not just movies, but anything. And you taught me a great deal about this. It centers on messaging. Can you talk a little bit about why that is so important and why it sort of can't be taught? Like you could teach digital this or you can teach how to do a media plan, but the creativity that goes into coming up with the overall strategic messaging of any movie is the most important thing. Correct?

*Bob Levin (15:51):

I think so. I don't know. It's a mixture of psychology and sociology and understanding what works and doesn't work and keeping it simple. But it's basically the notion of understanding who the potential audience is. We'll just talk about a movie. Who's the potential audience for this movie? And going back to, you know, the work that you have become the epitome of knowledge for is screenings. You learn so much at a research screening of who the potential audience is for a movie that as a marketing person, you're sitting there and saying, that's who it works for. That's who I need to go after. That's who I want in the theater opening weekend. And so you understand who the movie plays for and who the biggest potential is, and then start to discuss what's in the concept. What's a compelling idea for that audience in the movie?

Kevin Goetz (16:50):

For the largest number of folks, right.

*Bob Levin (16:52):

Well, what we became very adept at was you're talking about an era where network television drove box office. And we were able to create special messaging for special audiences. So we would have, in the case of the animated movies, which is the best story of all of it, we would have a messaging for a father to take a son, a mother to take a daughter, parents to go together, a general audience. Why should an adult male, an adult female, go to see the movie? We would have kids, we knew that younger kids liked physical comedy, older kids liked verbal comedy. We would create physical and verbal comedy. So we had a specific message for each different audience. And what you did is you also became a student of what worked and didn't work. I remember when we were doing it at Sony, I Know What You Did Last Summer, Scream had come out before that. And Scream was a different type of horror movie. And we started talking about appealing and making these movies into what they called screamo at that point, appealing to young females who were the audience that made Scream successful versus making it a horror movie. It became a movie you and your girlfriends can come to go to and scream in a theater.

Kevin Goetz (18:14):

Yeah. You have said good marketing is both instinct and data. Right. Still believe that?

*Bob Levin (18:19):

Yes, I believe it in the sense that data helps drive instinct. It's what you do with the data, it's how you look at the data.

Kevin Goetz (18:29):

I mean, you've worked on hundreds of releases, Bob. Which is the one that you are most proud of from, when I say this, let me just clarify 'cause its such a hard question. Give me the one movie that you sort of really felt you triumphed despite the fact that it might have been a difficult movie or difficult material.

Bob Levin (18:50):

That is a hard question because the movies that were successful in the sense of what I can take credit for marketing were movies that really played well for an audience. I don't know the easy ones to talk about I guess are Pretty Woman, which could have been misunderstood to be a Dark R-rated.

Kevin Goetz (19:09):

Which is what it originally was. Correct>

Bob Levin (19:11):

Yeah. It was written very differently than Gary Marshall originally called 3000. 3000, about what he paid a hooker to be with him for the weekend. But we turned it into this movie that mothers took daughters to come see. And we turned it into a celebration of feminine choice.

Kevin Goetz (19:27):

Absolutely. And agency. Right? Because she ended up calling her own shots.

Bob Levin (19:33):

He thought he was in charge. Right. She wound up in charge. And that turned into a number of movies that followed that. I mean, female empowerment. Did Legally Blonde. When I joined MGM, they had already positioned Legally Blonde as sort of this ridiculous sort of love story on campus. And it's like, no, female empowerment. Female empowerment became this theme so often. So, I think we really turned something that could have been, because remember Pretty Woman was Julia Roberts' launching pad.

Kevin Goetz (20:05):

Oh yeah.

Bob Levin (20:06):

That was the movie she was known in Hollywood, but she wasn't known as the movie star that she became after that. The other one.

Kevin Goetz (20:14):

Before you go on, Jeffrey Katzenberg wanted to name the movie Princess of the Boulevard.

Bob Levin (20:18):

Correct. So we kept on talking about, oh, this is a Cinderella movie. This is a Cinderella movie. And Jeffrey had this title 'cause he wanted to change 3000. It was The Princess of the Boulevard. And I said, Jeffrey, that is not a name for this movie, the Princess of the Boulevard.

Kevin Goetz (20:33):

Why wasn't it?

Bob Levin (20:35):

It just was too precious. It was too little.

Kevin Goetz (20:38):

It made it smaller in terms of younger.

Bob Levin (20:40):

Yeah. And like Princess, that's a Disney word.

Kevin Goetz (20:43):

So what'd you do?

Bob Levin (20:44):

So back then, Billboard Magazine used to publish an annual week-by-week compendium of that year's top 50 singles. So every week you could go through and see what was the single. So I had it back for many years, and I remember early on there was a movie called Boy Rents  Girl with Patrick Dempsey before he was Oh, I worked on that before. He was McDreamy. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Boy Rents Girl. What a horrible title for a movie. I said to Jeffrey, that's a horrible title for a movie. He says, well come up with something better. And I started to go into this thing and I found this title Can't Buy Me Love. You know the Beatles song, the Beatles had recently sold their catalog to Michael Jackson and he was looking to make money on the catalog. So I was able to buy that title. So I got in and started looking for a title for 3000 and found Pretty Woman, and I got rid of the Oh Pretty Woman. 

Kevin Goetz (21:43):

Okay. So 'cause it was Oh Pretty Woman, oh, that's the real name of it. Oh Pretty Woman.

Bob Levin (21:45):

It's Oh Pretty Woman.

Kevin Goetz (21:46):

So then you go to Gary Marshall, I'll play Gary Marshall. So Bob, what, is there some crazy song you got from me Bob? Yeah, what do you mean here?

Bob Levin (21:53):

So as I recall it, and I think I'm, I would call it correctly, I loved working with Gary. Gary was one of the great directors to work with.

Kevin Goetz (22:02):

The best.

Bob Levin (22:02):

The best. You know Gary, if you needed a scene for a trailer or you show him the trailer and you look at a trailer and he says, I got a better scene for you. I got something better. And he would give you a cut that was indeed better than the one you had 'cause you didn't know he had of course cut. It was great that way. So he says, I don't know what I'm, I'm not a filmmaker, but I had seen the movie enough times now. I said, where would I put it? I said, I, and what about when she's shopping in Rodeo Drive? And it just worked out great.

Kevin Goetz (22:29):

Wow.

Bob Levin (22:30):

That is a great idea.

Kevin Goetz (22:31):

Let me think about that.

Bob Levin (22:33):

Right.

Kevin Goetz (22:34):

Oh, and she's shopping. We can make it a whole montage. 

Bob Levin (22:36):

So then Roy Orbison's widow had to okay it and she said, well, I'm not okaying a movie. I'm not using that song for a hooker movie. And we showed her the movie and she said, I love the movie. And she let us use it. And of course she's lived off of that for a good period of time.

Kevin Goetz (22:55):

There are such things as unmarketable movies, wouldn't you say? Yeah. Gimme one.

Bob Levin (22:59):

Disorganized crime.

Kevin Goetz (23:02):

Oh, I did that one. Right,

Bob Levin (23:03):

Right.

Kevin Goetz (23:04):

I tested that.

Bob Levin (23:04):

Unmarketable. Heartbreak Hotel.

Kevin Goetz (23:07):

Okay, keep going. First of all, let's say, tell the listeners that you were responsible in large measure for me going to the next level of my career. Tell us about what you remember about that. We're talking 35 years ago. 

Bob Levin (23:19):

When I came to Hollywood, I never had any notion whatsoever that Hollywood used as much research as it used when I was still in Chicago and had agreed to come to Disney, but hadn't of course physically changed. Yet. They were working on an early movie that Jeffrey had inherited called The Journey of Natty Gann. And the journey of Natty Gann, he sends me to look at like, there's 10 green books. What are these green books?

Kevin Goetz (23:50):

Those were the old NRG reports.

Bob Levin (23:52):

Those were the old NRG reports. NRG being the monopoly in market research industry at that time industry. No one competed in the movie and they did everything. And in fact sat in marketing meetings. 

Kevin Goetz (24:04):

And God forbid you went to another company,

Bob Levin (24:06):

<laugh>. Oh my God. We keep on going to story after story. So Michael Eisner is going after Jeffrey about, he doesn't particularly like the principles of NRG, we gotta find an alternative. And I lined up presentations from three major market research companies who all came in and did presentations. And however Joe Ferrell did it, that never happened.

Kevin Goetz (24:33):

He went to Michael or Jeffrey, or both.

Bob Levin (24:34):

I think Jeffrey and I think Jeffrey went to Michael and said, we can't do this.

Kevin Goetz (24:38):

Well I gotta hand it to him.

Bob Levin (24:39):

So in those days, either Catherine Paura or Joe Ferrell, who were the two principals of NRG were, came to every research screening and did the groups.

Kevin Goetz (24:54):

How about came to every marketing meeting that Disney had on Monday morning, marketing meeting,

Bob Levin (24:58):

<laugh>. We digress again. Joe had the best deal whatsoever. So Joe's value in the industry and what exists that he knew more than anybody. He knew how every movie played. He knew how every advertising campaign was testing. He knew all of it, but he never really said anything out of school. He would sit in these marketing meetings and I never saw Joe in anything else other than a suit. And Jeffrey would say, well, you know, we ought to release that on September 6th <laugh>. And when he'd look at Joe <laugh> and Joe would bring out his market out of his thing.

Kevin Goetz (25:38):

His what? His little paper.

Bob Levin (25:39):

His paper he

Kevin Goetz (25:40):

His tiny little paper.

Bob Levin (25:41):

Tiny little writing paper. He'd look at it and he'd go, Hmm. And he just a little facial gesture. And Jeffrey said, well, maybe not September 6th. And that was, and he sort of did that for everybody. So he helped everybody make the right decisions without really giving anything away, but giving a lot away.

Kevin Goetz (26:01):

Two movies that come to mind that were really challenging. I remember I Love Trouble.

Bob Levin (26:07):

I Love Trouble.

Kevin Goetz (26:08):

That was truly a feathered fish movie. Yeah. Didn't know what it wanted to be.

Bob Levin (26:11):

It was cast that the cast would carry it, the cast could overcome this.

Kevin Goetz (26:16):

And that was Julia Roberts and

Bob Levin (26:18):

Nick Nolte. And sort of an action movie. Sort of a love story. There was no chemistry between them. I think she hated him as I recall the story. Maybe I'm wrong about that. Or he hated her. But there was no chemistry and And that was Nancy Myers and Charles Shyer at that point.

Kevin Goetz (26:34):

Oh yeah. What a misstep.

Bob Levin (26:35):

But Joe and Catherine did every screening. One time I was having a marketing screening to learn more about the movie. It wasn't for the filmmakers, it was for me.

Kevin Goetz (26:46):

Tutorial.

Bob Levin (26:47):

Yeah. And Joe said, Kevin, well we can't make it that night, but we got this great guy who's come in, you know here and great if you say he is great. And you showed up to do the group afterwards and I was blown away how good you were. I mean it was like, whoa, this is fresh. And I said to them, anytime that you guys are not available or whatever, more than happy to use Kevin.

Kevin Goetz (27:15):

That was great, and it was great for me. The other person that really also helped me at another studio was of course Tom Sherak.

Bob Levin (27:21):

Right

Kevin Goetz (27:21):

At Fox. Very, very supportive. One time I remember he called Joe and Catherine said, you need to give Kevin Getz a raise, <laugh>. And Catherine called me up, I have to talk to her about this, she'll probably remember and said, did you talk to Tom Sherick? I said, no. He said, oh, okay, well he wants us to pay you more and we're going to. And I said, great. <laugh> <laugh>. The other movie I was thinking when you were at Sony, I love Trouble. Yeah, I love Trouble. It was Disney. But then at Sony was, What Planet are you From.

Bob Levin (27:52):

Totally unmarketable movie. And the story goes, it was also the biggest money-losing movie in Columbia history. Mike Nichols, friend of John Calley makes this movie starring Gary.

Kevin Goetz (28:07):

May they both rest in peace.

*Bob Levin (28:08):

The movie starring Garry Shandling for a lot of money, big director's fee, big production fee. And the movie essentially is Garry Shandling’s an alien who is sent to the earth to determine how the species procreate and how it can help his planet, which is dying. Go on. And the hook of the movie is that every time he gets sexually excited, his sexual organ <laugh> buzzes. Oh God. And it's embarrassing and all that. Well, as much as I could fight the MPAA, I could never reveal that. So the very conceit of the movie is unmarketable.

Kevin Goetz (28:55):

Another one of Neil's, by the way, <laugh> I think, who got summarily asked to step off the movie 'cause no advertising was working.

Bob Levin (29:02):

Did not go well. Another one of just circumstances hit when I got to MGM.

Kevin Goetz (29:08):

MGM was your third studio stop. You were there for about four years also. Right? Right. And what were you gonna say about MGM?

Bob Levin (29:15):

So I walk in, Legally Blonde, huge success. And then we started working on Windtalkers. John Woo directed movie about the Navajo code talkers in the Pacific during World War 2. And their code talking was key to a lot of the victories 'cause the Japanese couldn't break the Navajo code.

Kevin Goetz (29:38):

How was the code communicated again>

Bob Levin (29:40):

They used the language which they couldn't translate. And so the movie starred Nicholas Cage as a protector of a windtalker and had huge battle scenes but was really a difficult sell in that Nick dies at the end. It doesn't have much code talking actually in it. And it just looks like a war movie. I mean just a lot of battle scenes

Kevin Goetz (30:07):

Generic.

Bob Levin (30:08):

It was to be released in November of 2001. And of course the Twin Towers happens in that year. And the decision was to pull the movie and the movie was released a year and a half later and was just old news to everybody at that point. It failed. And of course the marketing guy took the hit. You know, the three envelope story?

Kevin Goetz (30:35):

Please tell us the three envelope story. It's a famous story that all my listeners should know.

Bob Levin (30:41):

So the new chairman of the studio comes into his large office or her large office and there is the huge mahogany desk in the middle of the office. And the place is bare, except on the desk are three envelopes. Marked number one, number two, and number three. And there's a little note above it. When first in trouble, open envelope number one, put them all in your desk drawer. Eventually as happens in every studio, the word goes out that he's in trouble or she's in trouble, gets envelope number one out and it says fire your head of marketing. Your head of marketing is always your first person to go, always the source of all troubles at a studio. Everything that doesn't work is your head of marketing.

Kevin Goetz (31:33):

And when it succeeds?

Bob Levin (31:34):

It's not

Kevin Goetz (31:34):

Your head of

Bob Levin (31:35):

Well in some I, no, I got a lot of credit. I can't say that.

Kevin Goetz (31:38):

Well, it's typically their own brilliance.

Bob Levin (31:41):

I can't say that.

Kevin Goetz (31:41):

Production's brilliance.

Bob Levin (31:42):

Yeah. So then as the story goes along, fires Head of Marketing. Next gets in trouble and takes out envelope number two as described. And it says Fire your Head of Production. So now the production head is gone, the marketing head is gone, but you get in trouble again. Opens envelope number three and it says make out three envelopes.

Kevin Goetz (32:04):

That's so great. I love that. When we come back, we're gonna talk to Bob about what I like to call Act three, which would be Screen Engine. We'll be back in a moment.

(32:19):

Listeners, The Motion Picture Television Fund is a nonprofit charitable organization that supports working and retired members of the entertainment community. This wonderfully run organization offers assistance for living and aging with dignity and purpose in the areas of health and social services, including temporary financial assistance, case management, and residential living. And has been a crucial lifeline to thousands during and beyond critical times that our industry continues to experience. To learn more, visit mptf.com. Please join me in helping others in our industry during times of need. There are so many ways to offer support and get involved. Thank you. We're back with Bob Levin. Bob, how did I convince you to take the leap and come out of I think semi-retirement at that point to join me on my journey with Screen Engine, I guess almost 16 years ago?

Bob Levin (33:25):

So I was the worst semi-retired person, <laugh> and I wasn't very good at it and I never was gonna be any good at. And I did some volunteering and I was board chair for an independent school and staying busy. But at that point in time, as I recall, you were at OTX.

Kevin Goetz (33:40):

Yes, you're right.

*Bob Levin (33:40):

Chris Meledandri had left Blue Sky where he was responsible for Ice Age and had been funded by Universal to set up illumination. And he was just getting started. And he looked to you as a huge value to him and his success with Blue Sky and with all the Ice Age movies. And instead of wanting you at the end of the process, he wanted you at the beginning of the process in the very early stages of developing what was then called Evil Me. Mm. And it was just in the talking stage and you suggested that maybe he would like to have me involved because of all my animation experience. So I came in as a consultant.

Kevin Goetz (34:23):

Oh, I do remember that. 

Bob Levin (34:24):

Working for you at OTX.

Kevin Goetz (34:26):

That was about 18 years ago, I guess. Right.

Bob Levin (34:27):

And working with Chris and you and his team on Evil Me.

Kevin Goetz (34:31):

He showed, he showed us initial character renderings. I remember he took us through the story, which we thought was quite cute. We were concerned a little bit that young boys there was maybe not gonna be enough action for them 'cause there were three little girl characters. Of course there was Gru, but then we also were pretty hard on him, if I remember about the ending. It needed to do this, it needed to do that, it needed to do that at the end. And that really was very, very helpful to him. But we formed a different kind of working relationship. You and I. And I do remember that at the right time I said, Bob, this is silly. When I started the new company, I'm like, you need to come on. 

Bob Levin (35:11):

Right. So I continued as a consultant for a while.

Kevin Goetz (35:14):

Not too long.

Bob Levin (35:15):

And that was 2010 <laugh>. And I continued as a consultant. And then in 2013 you said, will you just come on asPresident and help me run this place. And that was the start. I just think matched up from the beginning so well.

Kevin Goetz (35:29):

And your beautiful wife was very helpful.

Bob Levin (35:31):

Hilde was very encouraging about doing this and said, I don't you around the house during the day <laugh>. I know. She said, you're gonna be like Fred Mertz <laugh>. Oh yeah. Sitting around. Yeah, no, she was very encouraging. And it just turned out to be a spectacular combination of two very, very different people, but in some ways very similar people.

Kevin Goetz (35:54):

Exactly. I think we share great values that are very similar. We also are very creative. Right. And I think that combination really has served us quite well. Aren't you proud about what we've done? 

*Bob Levin (36:05):

Oh, I think it's amazing what we've done. For those who don't know it, Screen Engine started in Kevin's living room of his house and was the Hail Mary pass of an entrepreneur. Kevin cashed in everything, cashed in the 401Ks, used credit cards wherever, did not have an investor, but took it on. And there were some people he just put together in his living room and he was off and running and within the first year had done close to $6 million in revenue.

Kevin Goetz (36:42):

Yeah, that was something else.

Bob Levin (36:43):

Unheard of. Wow. To be able to build that kind of business and from then through acquisitions and just growth. And by the way, have survived some very difficult times in the business. You know, the pandemic.

Kevin Goetz (36:56):

Yes.

Bob Levin (36:56):

Closed down all in-person screenings. And remember you calling us all in terms saying Manhattan project time, we have to have a way to do online screening that is secure within three months. I think you gave it or something. Some ridiculous time.

Kevin Goetz (37:15):

And we did it

Bob Levin (37:15):

And it was done with a lot of people really working and that hard to get it done. And it saved that business at that point in time. And then when we hit the strikes and all production stopped to be able to get through that, it wasn't easy, but we did it and so proud of it.

*Kevin Goetz (37:31):

Yeah. And it's fair to say also that part of what you helped me to navigate was not being so dependent on the movie business. I remember you coming into my office maybe 13 years ago or something and saying ASI, that preview house up on Sunset, it's available I think to buy. Yeah, right. Any interest? I said, no, wait Bob, Bob, come back. Come back. <laugh>. What would that wait? ASI, huh? That's with the dials. Yeah. Huh. That could be interesting. Well, let's investigate it.

Bob Levin (38:01):

Well you remember we had learned up until then, so you were great at getting meetings and you got us meetings with television people.

Kevin Goetz (38:11):

Mm-hmm <affirmative>

Bob Levin (38:12):

And we were going to the meetings and the standard meeting was, you guys are really nice guys. You've had great success in the movie business. We're really good people. But you're not TV people. Couldn't get a chance.

Kevin Goetz (38:24):

Yeah. We needed something to establish us firmly in the TV business. That did it. It was the greatest thing ever. I remember taking another swing by personally guaranteeing a loan. Oh right. For that whole business acquisition. So I still owned a hundred percent of the company at that point. Yeah, yeah. Isn't that crazy? Yeah. I mean when I think about what I've done that way and having my supportive husband behind me to do it is really extraordinary.

Bob Levin (38:50):

Well because Kevin, you are a true entrepreneur from way back when, you know, from you starting your dance school when you're a teenager.

Kevin Goetz (39:01):

Yeah.

Bob Levin (39:02):

And like who's the teenager got a dance…

Kevin Goetz (39:05):

I have a great story and I started at the lemonade stand.

Bob Levin (39:07):

And before that the lemonade stand.

Kevin Goetz (39:08):

No, no. So, so this weekend, this last weekend, I'm driving up Rexford from Beverly Hills and on the corner of Rexford and I think Carmelita or Elevado is a young boy selling lemonade. <laugh>. I pass, I go about a quarter of a mile, I do a U-turn, I come all the way back and I pull up in front and I said, how much for a glass of lemonade? <laugh>? He said, $2 <laugh>. I said, $2. I said, okay, I'll take two. Gave him a five. I said, this is for you as a tip for doing such good service. Wow. I said, thank you so much and keep making money. Make it for the right price. And you gotta, you make profit. You know, prices in the grocery stores have gone up. Okay sir, thank you. Thank you sir. Alright. And went off and I felt very good about acknowledging and supporting his entrepreneurship.

Bob Levin (40:00):

Yeah. I think one of the things that I've learned from you is, I came up in more or less the corporate world and the way that corporate people think about things and corporate structure and all of that. And you are a pure entrepreneur from back to the lemonade stand day.

Kevin Goetz (40:18):

You bet. It was my acting days, right? Correct. I mean, you had to self-promote. You're an actor, no one's doing it for you. Right. You're putting yourself on the line every time. I have such respect for actors going out there, being vulnerable, putting yourself on the line and being told no.

Bob Levin (40:33):

Right.

Kevin Goetz (40:33):

And no and no and no. And finally you get one yes. And you're like encouraged to go to the next step.

Bob Levin (40:40):

But what I, but what I've learned that I find interesting is I never heard the term before. You used the term gut brain.

Kevin Goetz (40:47):

Stomach brain or gut brain.

Bob Levin (40:48):

Yeah. And corporations very much are lined up in brain brain, not gut brain. And successful entrepreneurs, I think like you, have a really good gut brain. And entrepreneurs who aren't that successful find out they don't.

Kevin Goetz (41:07):

Well, I was just gonna ask you, you literally answered this question, but I'm gonna ask it anyway. You've been part of both massive corporations and a growing entrepreneurial business. What leadership lessons translate between those two worlds?

*Bob Levin (41:20):

<laugh>, it goes back to, I remember a meeting at Disney where Disney had established by this time a very strong corporate strategy group. And they were the big thinkers in the studio. And we had a lot of retreats at Disney and a lot of off-campus retreats. And one retreat for the movie business, corp strat guys came in and after the review of the business said, well, we understand that hits drive the business. So just make hits. <laugh>. That's an old famous, well they, did Michael say it? No, no. The one of the Corp Strat people.

Kevin Goetz (41:57):

Oh, one of the

Bob Levin (41:58):

Corp.

Kevin Goetz (41:58):

Oh, what a genius idea.

Bob Levin (41:59):

<laugh>. What a genius idea. So it's that kind of thinking that every problem has an arithmetics solution to it. Every problem can be analyzed down to the depth where an entrepreneur says, I got enough information, let's move forward versus spend the next year. Right. And if you're the right entrepreneur, it works. If you don't, you're not the right person.

Kevin Goetz (42:22):

You know, I wanna segue to our book, How to Score in Hollywood. I'm very proud of it. It comes out November 11th from Simon and Schuster. It's, I think a really good read. And it's an important read for many different constituents, I think that could find value from it. Tell me what you think about the book. Why you got initially involved with the book. 

Bob Levin (42:48):

I don't remember how I got involved. I think we just talked about would you like to write the next book with me or do the next book?

Kevin Goetz (42:54):

But I mean I had this idea about, because Audienceology, which I co-wrote with Darlene Hayman really focused on the screenings, the playability.

Bob Levin (43:04):

Right.

Kevin Goetz (43:05):

And I kind of wanted to, if you remember, talk about the capability.

Bob Levin (43:10):

Yeah.

Kevin Goetz (43:10):

Which you coined by the way.

Bob Levin (43:12):

Right.

Kevin Goetz (43:12):

I remember where you coined it in this conference room when we were renting a shared space. And I said, we neededto come up with a name that measures concepts, but not call it concept testing and more rigor around the pre-greenlight stage. And you said capability, how capable is something.

*Bob Levin (43:32):

Right. Which is an element of the book. I think what we eventually got round to is there is a real story to be told through the practitioners of the business. And I mean producers, studio executives. How do you actually get to the point where someone says, yeah, I'll put money behind that. We're gonna make that movie. What are all the dynamics that go through that? You lifted the curtain in the first book behind the whole idea of how research at screenings helps make movies more playable. We also had marketability buzzability, but capability. So it's bigger than just the research here and the way this book is written. But I think the notion, what got me interested deeper and deeper is we wrote into it and there were things that we tossed away and did with, because it went down a rabbit hole. I think it's a really good behind-the-scenes read for anyone who's sort of interested in the entertainment business and how IP and ideas are developed, and things gain the strength for people to put money behind it. But I also thought that it had a lot of information for other businesses. One of the things about the entertainment business.

Kevin Goetz (44:46):

How so?

*Bob Levin (44:46):

Well, because the entertainment business, it can be challenge for lots of reasons, but it is, as far as a business goes, the most creative business in the world is entertainment. Be it music, be it movies, be it TV, be it now podcasts or creator economy content. It is built on creativity.

Kevin Goetz (45:09):

You bet.

*Bob Levin (45:09):

And how to understand that creativity and how you move from the pure creative soul to something that can work as a business enterprise and return an investment and that kind of thing. And how you can think through ideas. And I think the book just gives insights that can be used in other businesses.

Kevin Goetz (45:32):

Anyone starting a business, you must take a sober look at what you have. Not only what you have, but how many people are gonna buy into that. Right. What's the size of your audience? That's not about movies, that's about any new product being launched.

Bob Levin (45:48):

So you know, it's the line that we sort of talk about the book as being every movie if made and marketed for the right price should make money. You can take that same concept. Every toothbrush if made and marketed for the right price should make money.

Kevin Goetz (46:03):

Well that's why I was laughing about the lemonade stand. Yeah. Yeah. With the little boy.

Bob Levin (46:06):

Right.

Kevin Goetz (46:06):

I was like, every lemonade stand if made and marketed for the right price should make money. Right. How much are your lemons? Yeah. What's the sugar, right? How much of those cups, right. You have a table set up there too. And I see you have a little assistant over there, you paying that assistant. From your perspective, Bob, what's the biggest misconception people have about how success really works in Hollywood?

Bob Levin (46:29):

Well, it depends your source of information. I think that for some people they would say today it's all nepo baby. It's who you know, can't even get in that industry without who you know. I think the thing that I have learned, bedrock, I think is it is a talent play in anything. Are you talented at marketing? Are you talented at acting? Are you talented at directing? Are you talented at producing whatever you talented at production design, costume, man, whatever it is. At any stage, do you have the talent to succeed? You may have the connections, you may have the ability to get your first job, but to have a lasting career and be successful and put food on your table for your family, you have to have talent to succeed in this business. So in the end, I think people can say, well that person's not very talented 'cause I don't like rap music. Well you don't know rap music and what talent is.

Kevin Goetz (47:32):

Exactly. So you ask people, I was gonna ask you, you've spent your career shaping how audiences experience movies. What have audiences taught you?

*Bob Levin (47:42):

They are absolutely pure in their responses. You cannot like the way they respond as the creator, you can say, well they're stupid or they don't know what's funny and all. But they're just acting in purity for what they see and what they react to.

Kevin Goetz (48:00):

Someone asked me recently, have you ever been wrong? You know about a movie? Mm-hmm <affirmative>. And I said, well I'm wrong every day of my life in some form or fashion. But the audience is never wrong. They're just giving you their feelings. So unless you want to discount feelings and feelings are just feelings. They have no judgment on them. They're never wrong. They're just telling you how they are taking this in and, and by the way, they just come there to be entertained to a screening, let's say. They want to like it. They don't wanna have given their time and not like it. So for them to be led to tell you what's wrong with it is actually a pretty big deal. Big. If you could give one piece of advice to the next generation of studio executives or filmmakers in general regarding what we do, what would you say?

*Bob Levin (48:54):

Boy, I think you have to be very open-minded and curious about the world, what's going on in the world. And I don't mean a political sense only, I think you have to have a curiosity and a desire to understand people, to understand what people are reacting to. To not see yourself in a slot of, I'm in the movie business, or I'm in the TV business, or I'm in the music business. You're in the attention economy.

Kevin Goetz (49:23):

The attention economy.

*Bob Levin (49:25):

Where people have more, more ways to be entertained and to consume their time. And when you realize that YouTube is now getting more attention than any other single platform entity putting out entertainment and it's all very short form, does that mean the death of long form? I don't think so. Your challenge to be, again, going back to the audience, I think the challenge is to respect the audience. Don't be cynical about the audience. Don't be skeptical. Don't think, oh well this will entertain. Try to do something that is great. What everyone talks about, great storytelling, I think as long as you're telling a story, whether it's in five minutes or two hours, as long as you tell a great story, the audiences will be with you.

Kevin Goetz (50:16):

And understanding dramatization, not just words, but really understanding character, getting behind those characters. That's the universality of why we love movies so much. Don't you think? 

*Bob Levin (50:30):

Absolutely. You know, I learned a lot over my years 'cause I wasn't a film student person or uh, and all of that when I came in here and I would watch people react in movies and I once came to the conclusion, rightfully or wrongfully, people come into a movie looking to identify with a character and someone up on that screen they're looking to identify with. They either look at it and say, that's someone who I would like to be like. Or that's someone who really understands my life as it is. Mm-hmm. And I'm seeing my life up there and I'm feeling a connection. I'm not alone in my life.

Kevin Goetz (51:06):

Mm-hmm <affirmative>. Mm-hmm <affirmative>. Mm-hmm <affirmative>

Bob Levin (51:07):

There's other people sharing the same struggles or relations or whatever as I am.

Kevin Goetz (51:13):

The relatability. Yeah.

Bob Levin (51:14):

The relatability. Or boy that's a place I'd like to go to. Even in its total fantasy. Even if it's the superhero or Superman. Boy, wouldn't that be exciting if you could be Superman? You know.

Kevin Goetz (51:26):

Looking back on your whole career, what are you most proud of?

Bob Levin (51:28):

I think I want to go back to a phrase you used, 'cause I think it's about life as well. I think I did the job ethically. I think I did the job with the right kind of values, which I think you bring into work and life wherever you are. I say to my wife, Hilde, you know, she says, what do we have in common? What do we have in common? And I said, we have values and ethics in common.

Kevin Goetz (51:53):

You and Hilde.

Bob Levin (51:54):

Yeah. 

Kevin Goetz (51:54):

Oh, so much.

Bob Levin (51:55):

We have value and ethics in common.

Kevin Goetz (51:56):

You guys have been so wonderful for each other because you have grounded Hilde in a way because she loves life and loves to live life. And she's given you right this energy and this enthusiasm for life.

Bob Levin (52:08):

But you know, grounded value and ethics. I think you have to have a great deal of respect in yourself and what you do. 

Kevin Goetz (52:19):

It's a good answer. What continues to excite you about this industry? Last night I was at a dinner party and this gentleman probably in his early to mid-eighties was lamenting the fact that movies are over. And I said, au contraire, movies are great. I said, you're only seeing the small number of films that are in your sphere because you're not being reached anymore.

Bob Levin (52:42):

Mm-hmm

Kevin Goetz (52:42):

<affirmative> to know that there are hundreds of movies in different countries that are so brilliant. And then not to mention television and the quality of television, there's just so much of it. And you're not meant to love it all. It's cutting through the noise to try to reach you. And I started to rattle off some names and it was like, he said, well I should check that out. I should check that out. I said, I refuse to believe that. And so he said he picked a year, he picked 1972, I believe, Godfather year. And Neil was there and he pulled up the movies of that year. And you heard Poseidon Adventure, Please Don't Eat the Daisies, Cabaret, Godfather, and Last Tango in Paris. But just like today, you have three or four important movies and then movies that are more fluff or more entertainment driven.

Bob Levin (53:33):

Yeah. I think there's a real marketing challenge today. You know, we, we can go back pre-television, when people went to the movies, it was just, you went to the movies, that's what you did on a weekend.

Kevin Goetz (53:47):

You went to the movies.

Bob Levin (53:48):

You didn't go to a movie, you went to the movies and you discovered movies you never would've seen before. That's a hundred percent right. And that you were lifted up by 'em.

Kevin Goetz (54:00):

There was a nostalgia. There was a nostalgia that there was a feeling that you got. Right. And it was an exciting feeling, wasn't it?

Bob Levin (54:08):

Right.

Kevin Goetz (54:08):

And I think you can still get it, but you get it more fewer and far between.

*Bob Levin (54:12):

So where I'm going is that time was over and then came the advent of network television driving movies, business, and the movie business exploded. And people started going to a movie and discovered things that marketing got them to go see. And they were excited and they were elevated. Again, marketing is more challenging today than it's ever been because you can't gather those audiences you used to.

Kevin Goetz (54:41):

You have hope for the future?

Bob Levin (54:43):

Well, yeah. I think if people will do the work, I think the marketing side still has to figure out what do you do when you don't have network television? But I think also

Kevin Goetz (54:52):

What do you do in terms of what we call reach and frequency?

*Bob Levin (54:54):

Reach and frequency. But I wanna get to the other point that I think is, I think audiences have become lazy. I think the proliferation of so much content on so many different streamers and so many, and then going to a movie versus going to a streamer and the costs involved and all of that. It's like you sit down and go, what's on tonight? It's almost like people aren't really searching or trying to find what's really out there. Like you say, there's movies being made all over the world, but do we just default to the easiest thing?

Kevin Goetz (55:31):

That was what I was telling the gentleman at the dinner party,

Bob Levin (55:34):

Do a little work, you'll find they exist. So I'm saying lazy audiences are blaming the content producers versus blaming themselves. 

Kevin Goetz (55:45):

How do you want your legacy to be remembered?

Bob Levin (55:46):

I've tried to be a mentor to lots of people and I hope that I accomplished that and that I live on through those people I've mentored who've had their own successes. I've never been someone seeking credit for what I've done. I've never been out there as a self-promoter and probably, you know, and a few other people know my contribution to lots of the success that other people take credit for. So I can live in that world. I feel good about what I did. I know what I accomplished. I'd like to be remembered as a good person to work with and a good person to work for. And being honest and straightforward. And there's a great story though, that Neil tells about when he was at Sony and he'd be afraid to get on that elevator if the doors opened. And I was already on the elevator and I,

Kevin Goetz (56:39):

He didn't know what to talk to you about.

Bob Levin (56:42):

And I think when I go through it, it wasn't that I was mean or an asshole as a boss, I expected people to perform a very high standard. And I still do that today. You know.

Kevin Goetz (56:54):

Indeed. Bob, I'm so grateful for you to have finally come on the program.

Bob Levin (56:59):

Well thank you for having me.

Kevin Goetz (57:01):

The timing is very fortuitous because we are both going to be promoting the book in a big way. So you've gotta put on that self-promotion hat because you deserve it with your contributions to this book and to the contributions you've made over the last almost 40 years in the entertainment business. We are so appreciative of you, for you, and I have a particular place that you will always live in my heart.

Bob Levin (57:29):

Well, same here. You know that.

Kevin Goetz (57:31):

Thank you. To our listeners, I hope you enjoyed this conversation. For more insights into filmmaking, audience testing, and the business of Hollywood, I invite you to check out my books, AudienceOlogy and How to Score in Hollywood at Amazon, or through my website at KevinGoetz360.com. You can also follow me on my social media. Until then, I'm Kevin Goetz, and to you, our listeners, I appreciate you being part of the movie-making process. Your opinions matter.

Host: Kevin Goetz
Guest: Bob Levin
Producer: Kari Campano
Writers: Kevin Goetz, Darlene Hayman, and Kari Campano
Audio Engineer: Gary Forbes (DG Entertainment)