Podcast: Don't Kill the Messenger with Movie Research Expert Kevin Goetz
Guest: Suzanne de Passe

Interview Transcript:

Announcer (00:03):

From script to screen, every film is brought to life by visionary creatives and executives all sharing one mission – to captivate the audience. Hosted by award-winning movie strategist Kevin Goetz, our podcast Don't Kill The Messenger, offers a filmmaking masterclass through intimate conversations with Hollywood's most influential voices. And now your host, Kevin Goetz.

Kevin Goetz (00:29):

In 1981, black Enterprise ran a cover story called The $10 Million Gamble about a young Motown executive boldly taking the company beyond music and into film and television. A groundbreaking move at a time when few women and even fewer black women, held that kind of power in Hollywood. That executive was my guest today, Suzanne De Passe. By then, she helped launch the Jackson Five among many others, and had written the screenplay, Lady Sings the Blues, proving that Motown stories could thrive on the big screen. As President of Motown Productions, she turned that success into an empire, producing movies series and specials that redefined what a music company could be. Suzanne's career is a masterclass in vision, courage, and audience instinct, the same qualities that drive every great filmmaker. Suzanne, welcome. And I am privileged and honored to have you here today.

Suzanne de Passe (01:37):

Well, you're gonna make me blush. <laugh>.

Kevin Goetz (01:39):

Oh,

Suzanne de Passe (01:40):

Thank you. Thank you for having me, and I'm looking forward to our chat.

Kevin Goetz (01:44):

Well, let's start with the fact that we are here in large measure, because we have a mutual friend, Tina Sinatra.

Suzanne de Passe (01:51):

Yes.

Kevin Goetz (01:53):

We love her very much. And when I found out that you guys were besties, I would sort of slowly work on her incrementally saying, we have to get Suzanne on my show. You gotta help me. She's, oh, it's Susie. I'll just call her <laugh>. Let's start with a young Suzanne. Where did you grow up? Where did it all begin?

*Suzanne de Passe (02:16):

I think that I am among the most fortunate because I had such an eclectic, wonderful childhood and young adulthood. I was born in Harlem and lived in Harlem. Went to a private school for 13 years, called New Lincoln from kindergarten through 12th grade.

Kevin Goetz (02:38):

Was that in the city?

Suzanne de Passe (02:39):

That was in the city on what's now called Central Park North. And it was a bit of a melting pot of a progressive private school. And I think in large part, a lot of my trust in my ability to look at something, think about it, critique it and respond to it, came from a lot of what went on, not only in my family, but at New Lincoln. And so my grandfather was a physician practicing in Harlem. He had three daughters, of which my mother was one.

Kevin Goetz (03:15):

A gp.

Suzanne de Passe (03:16):

Yes. His name was Dr. Lucian Brown. And he and my grandmother bought our home in Martha's Vineyard in the early 1940s.

Kevin Goetz (03:27):

Oak Bluffs.

Suzanne de Passe (03:28):

Oak Bluffs on Waban Park.

Kevin Goetz (03:30):

We were just there, by the way, a few summers ago. And we stayed in between Vineyard Haven and Oak Bluffs.

Suzanne de Passe (03:36):

Mm-hmm <affirmative>.

Kevin Goetz (03:37):

On that stretch where there's deep water docks.

Suzanne de Passe (03:40):

Right.

Kevin Goetz (03:40):

But Oak Bluffs is probably where you spent most of our time, because A, it was closest. There's some wonderful restaurants, but it's so beautifully colorful. Mm-hmm <affirmative>. And those cottages. Yeah. And wasn't Jaws shot right near there?

Suzanne de Passe (03:54):

Jaws was shot down the road on State Beach between Old Bluffs and Edgartown. And the shark, Bruce <laugh> used to be

Kevin Goetz (04:03):

Bruce. Everyone knows that name. Right. It's so crazy.

Suzanne de Passe (04:06):

Bruce used to pass by our house on a flatbed truck on his way to set.

Kevin Goetz (04:13):

Did you ever tell Steven that?

Suzanne de Passe (04:14):

No, I haven't had the opportunity. <laugh>.

Kevin Goetz (04:16):

Oh 'cause that's so great. Now I wanna ask you, you as a young girl, you went there for the summers.

Suzanne de Passe (04:21):

I arrived in Martha's Vineyard. I'm a July baby.

Kevin Goetz (04:24):

Are you a cancer?

Suzanne de Passe (04:25):

Yes.

Kevin Goetz (04:25):

So am I.

Suzanne de Passe (04:26):

Are you really?

Kevin Goetz (04:27):

Triple cancer?

Suzanne de Passe (04:28):

I'm double.

Kevin Goetz (04:29):

Are you kidding?

Suzanne de Passe (04:30):

I'm not.

Kevin Goetz (04:31):

Immediate connection We had

Suzanne de Passe (04:33):

I <laugh>, I'm cancer. Cancer. Pisces All water.

Kevin Goetz (04:35):

I'm Sun, moon and Rising Cancer.

Suzanne de Passe (04:38):

Wow. What day?

Kevin Goetz (04:39):

June 26th.

Suzanne de Passe (04:41):

Okay. So Tina is the 20th, and I'm July 19th. I'm closer to Leo.

Kevin Goetz (04:45):

But that's still, cancer.

Suzanne de Passe (04:47):

Is still cancer.

Kevin Goetz (04:47):

And she's an absolute Gemini.

Suzanne de Passe (04:49):

And she is <laugh>, even though she's kind of on the cusp almost.

Kevin Goetz (04:53):

Hey Tina, you're a Gemini. Don't even think you're joining our cancer club.

Suzanne de Passe (04:57):

Yeah, yeah. Right. <laugh>, right. Well, I arrived in Martha's Vineyard in a laundry basket at the ripe old age of 16 days.

Kevin Goetz (05:05):

What does that mean? You arrived in a laundry basket?

Suzanne de Passe (05:09):

My family was coming from New York.

Kevin Goetz (05:13):

Yes.

Suzanne de Passe (05:13):

To Woods Hole to take the ferry across to the vineyard. And the way they transported me was in one of those old fashioned laundry baskets with the two wicker kind of handles on the

Kevin Goetz (05:26):

I thought you were left on a doorstep.

Suzanne de Passe (05:28):

No,

Kevin Goetz (05:29):

<laugh>. Like with the nuns.

Suzanne de Passe (05:30):

That was, I guess, the equivalent of a car seat or a bassinet.

Kevin Goetz (05:34):

Honestly, that's what I thought. I'm saying. What do you mean? She was on <laugh>? A laundry basket. Okay. So,

Suzanne de Passe (05:39):

So from 16 days old every summer until I was 18, I was in Martha's Vineyard from the end of June until the middle of September.

Kevin Goetz (05:49):

You still go?

Suzanne de Passe (05:50):

Absolutely. I was just there in July for three weeks.

Kevin Goetz (05:52):

Incredible. You friends with, uh, like Stacey Snider?

Suzanne de Passe (05:55):

I'm having drinks with her today at five.

Kevin Goetz (05:58):

Would you tell her I love her.

Suzanne de Passe (05:59):

I will.

Kevin Goetz (06:00):

<laugh>. And how about Peter Chernin?

Suzanne de Passe (06:02):

Well, I knew Peter when he was at Showtime, but I have never seen him on the vineyard.

Kevin Goetz (06:06):

Oh my Lord. Not to name drop, but yeah, I have to tell you that Peter Bart, who's a very dear friend who's been a guest on this show.

Suzanne de Passe (06:13):

Huh.

Kevin Goetz (06:14):

And also, he's one of my, oh, that's so funny. He's one of the people on the back of my book.

Suzanne de Passe (06:19):

Oh yeah.

Kevin Goetz (06:20):

As an endorsement, as is Peter Chernin. Two of them outta the five are Vineyard people.

Suzanne de Passe (06:25):

Mm-hmm

Kevin Goetz (06:26):

<affirmative>. Anyway, Peter had a family home there, and Peter's nephew is one of my best friends. Roger Bart, who's a Tony winning Broadway performer.

Suzanne de Passe (06:37):

Oh, great.

Kevin Goetz (06:37):

And so they go up there every year. And I went up there with Roger when I was in college and I fell in love with it. And I know it's your happy place.

Suzanne de Passe (06:46):

It is my happy place.

Kevin Goetz (06:47):

I can tell just energetically. So you grow up, you go to New Lincoln, you spend your summers in Martha's Vineyard, you begin to fall in love with entertainment.

*Suzanne de Passe (07:00):

I think I fell in love with music more than entertainment, per se. But my mother and my family were big consumers of what New York City had to offer in terms of the arts, the Metropolitan Opera. I'm talking about City Center Ballet, I am talking about.

Kevin Goetz (07:19):

So you had a very eclectic,

Suzanne de Passe (07:21):

Very, I'm talking about Broadway. Wonderful. I'm talking about the Village Vanguard. I'm talking about

Kevin Goetz (07:25):

The Bitter End.

Suzanne de Passe (07:26):

The bitter end. And so many of the cultural, you know, the Museum of Modern Art, the Museum of Natural History, the Whitney, Guggenheim, you know, New York City

Kevin Goetz (07:38):

At its best

Suzanne de Passe (07:39):

At its unbelievable best.

Kevin Goetz (07:41):

Most grand. What musical, either a show, an opera, a performance, had a particular influence early on as a child for you?

Suzanne de Passe (07:52):

I would say it was more of a cocktail of things. One thing building upon another. I had to take piano lessons, which I was woefully bad at, but I would practice.

Kevin Goetz (08:03):

You didn't like it?

Suzanne de Passe (08:04):

It didn't come naturally to me.

Kevin Goetz (08:06):

Do you play now?

Suzanne de Passe (08:07):

I play at it. I have a baby grand piano, if that's anything.

Kevin Goetz (08:10):

I've been taking two lessons a week for the last 15 years.

Suzanne de Passe (08:13):

And

Kevin Goetz (08:14):

I love it. I don't really play for anyone because I'm a perfectionist and I play because I love music so much. And it is one of my happy places. And also gives me a great decompression of Kevin time.

Suzanne de Passe (08:27):

Mm.

Kevin Goetz (08:28):

And so I just love the idea of

Suzanne de Passe (08:31):

What do you play?

Kevin Goetz (08:32):

Right now I'm working on a Chopin piece, waltz in a minor. And that's been for a little over a year.

Suzanne de Passe (08:38):

Mm.

Kevin Goetz (08:39):

And do you know Maria Janis?

Suzanne de Passe (08:41):

Yeah, I know her through my friend Suzanne Zada.

Kevin Goetz (08:43):

Okay. So she's become a great friend. And of course listeners. That's Gary Cooper's daughter.

Suzanne de Passe (08:48):

Mm-hmm

Suzanne de Passe (08:49):

<affirmative>. 

Kevin Goetz (08:50):

Maria Cooper Janis, who was married to Byron Janis. Byron Janis was considered one of greatest piano virtuosos, but also a composer and an interpreter of Chopin and Liszt. When I went to visit about six months ago, I was in New York and I went up to their apartment on Park Avenue. Byron passed away about two years ago.

Suzanne de Passe (09:11):

Mm-hmm.

Kevin Goetz (09:12):

There's two grand pianos in this Park Avenue apartment. And I told her about my piano playing and she said, play something. I said, oh my God, no, <laugh>. I got in front of his piano and I'm beginning to play and I'm screwing up because I a, I didn't have my music.

Suzanne de Passe (09:28):

Right.

Kevin Goetz (09:28):

But I was so nervous. That's the reason that it's for Kev.

Suzanne de Passe (09:34):

Yeah. Right. <laugh>. I get you. Well, I took ballet lessons. My passion growing up was riding.

Kevin Goetz (09:42):

Horseback riding.

Suzanne de Passe (09:43):

Yes.

Kevin Goetz (09:43):

In New York

Suzanne de Passe (09:44):

At Claremont Riding Academy on 89th Street in Columbus Avenue.

Kevin Goetz (09:48):

Okay. This is blowing me away.

Suzanne de Passe (09:49):

I learned to jump there. But on the vineyard, I taught at Dias Farm for two summers. Young kids, how to ride.

Kevin Goetz (09:58):

Then you went to college?

Suzanne de Passe (10:00):

I went to Syracuse University and left.

Kevin Goetz (10:04):

Why'd you leave?

Suzanne de Passe (10:05):

I think two reasons. One was I was in love with the captain of the football team. And we were getting engaged and he was going off to play.

Kevin Goetz (10:15):

Oh my, your parents must have been apoplectic.

Suzanne de Passe (10:17):

Well, they'd been divorced since I was three. And it was probably one of the first things.

Kevin Goetz (10:21):

They still must have been apoplectic.

Suzanne de Passe (10:23):

<laugh>. They, they were. And my mother said, you may not wanna go back to Syracuse, but you are going to someone's school. But I was so happy to leave upstate New York 'cause it snowed in October and didn't thaw till April.

Kevin Goetz (10:35):

We were a journalism major or a theater major. English lit. English Lit.

Suzanne de Passe (10:39):

Mm-hmm

Kevin Goetz (10:39):

<affirmative>. Great major, by the way. People say, what do you do with an English Lit? My answer is, everything.

Suzanne de Passe (10:43):

Everything. Everything.

Kevin Goetz (10:45):

So you left Syracuse and did you end up completing, or did you go right into the working?

Suzanne de Passe (10:49):

No, no. I, I went to Manhattan Community College and I loved it there 'cause I was in my element. I was in New York. And there's a difference between have to and want to. For me, the have to was very difficult. 

Kevin Goetz (11:06):

Mm.

Suzanne de Passe (11:07):

But when it's the want to, it's a breeze. It's easy, it's engaging. And it's interesting. And they're horses for courses. I mean, I didn't belong in upstate New York, and I knew it.

Kevin Goetz (11:21):

Yeah. We sometimes follow these. That's the route we're supposed to take and then you realize, Uhuh not my perfect path.

Suzanne de Passe (11:28):

Right. And yet Syracuse awarded me their highest alumni Honor the Arents Award, which I went back to Syracuse and received. And I, I had gotten a Chancellor's award before that. And I kept telling them, I said, but I didn't finish. And they said, but you're ours anyway.

Kevin Goetz (11:47):

Oh.

Suzanne de Passe (11:48):

And it was very touching,

Kevin Goetz (11:49):

Actually. Very touching. What happened to the football player?

Suzanne de Passe (11:51):

He went on to cheat on me, <laugh> and, um,

Kevin Goetz (11:55):

At the ripe old age of 19 or something? 

Suzanne de Passe (11:57):

No, no, no. He was older. <laugh>. He was a senior. You know, he went to play professional football. And I would go down to some of the home games. It was called then the Redskins.

Kevin Goetz (12:07):

Well, he was a fool.

Suzanne de Passe (12:08):

Now the commanders, no. I thank him every day. And we're still friends. <laugh>.

Kevin Goetz (12:11):

No you're not.

Suzanne de Passe (12:12):

Oh, yeah.

Kevin Goetz (12:13):

Incredible.

Suzanne de Passe (12:14):

Oh yeah.

Kevin Goetz (12:14):

Did he seek you out once you became famous?

Suzanne de Passe (12:17):

We kind of kept in touch over the years, you know. Um, he ended up marrying someone else, and that was great with me.

Kevin Goetz (12:24):

That's great.

Suzanne de Passe (12:25):

And you know, not everybody is meant to be the thing that you meet them for the first time in your life. Sure. In other words, not everybody's supposed to be your best friend or your mentor or your husband, fiance. People transform in their relationship to you. I think.

Kevin Goetz (12:44):

What's your superpower?

Suzanne de Passe (12:46):

I don't know if I have a superpower, but I am an enthusiast.

Kevin Goetz (12:51):

You're in number seven.

Suzanne de Passe (12:53):

How do you know that?

Kevin Goetz (12:54):

Because I'm a seven Enneagram. Unbelievable. I wanna just say something <laugh>, and I'm gonna tell our listeners, I look at Suzanne across from me, and we are meant to be in each other's lives. I'm getting emotional.

Suzanne de Passe (13:07):

Mm.

Kevin Goetz (13:08):

I don't know why, but let me just say there is something so kind and elegant about you that I just am very moved by.

Suzanne de Passe (13:20):

Oh, well thank you. My maternal grandmother named me. And my name is Suzanne Celeste de Passe. All three of my names in French have seven letters.

Kevin Goetz (13:33):

Oh.

Suzanne de Passe (13:34):

My first and last name end in a double letter E. And my relationship to my name is very intense. And that's where the seven I think comes from.

Kevin Goetz (13:46):

You are not aware of the Enneagram.

Suzanne de Passe (13:48):

Mm-hmm.

Kevin Goetz (13:49):

Oh my Lord. You And up drinks dinner. It's a night. And you're going to be floored when you hear what a seven is. There are nine, listeners do your Enneagram. You go online, it takes about 10 or 15 minutes to do. And you get the number. You are, you're one of nine. And the different categories are like, one is the reformer, two is the helper, three is the achiever, four is the individualist, five is the investigator. Six is the loyalist. Seven is the enthusiast.

Suzanne de Passe (14:25):

Wow.

Kevin Goetz (14:26):

Eight is the challenger, and nine is the peacemaker. And not only are you mostly one thing.

Suzanne de Passe (14:35):

Mm-hmm <affirmative>.

Kevin Goetz (14:35):

But you're also a wing of something that borders yours. So for example, I'm a seven enthusiast with a challenger border. My husband Neil is a six, a loyalist.

Suzanne de Passe (14:46):

Mm-hmm <affirmative>.

Kevin Goetz (14:47):

You know, you don't want to do bad by him

Suzanne de Passe (14:49):

Because

Kevin Goetz (14:50):

You're dead to me. You're dead to me. Don't even go there. You know? But he's a investigator on his wing.

Suzanne de Passe (14:57):

Mm-hmm

Kevin Goetz (14:58):

<affirmative>. So we're gonna get you set up with that, because you are gonna be so intrigued. I cannot believe that came out of your mouth. So your superpowers, you're an enthusiast.

Suzanne de Passe (15:05):

Mm-hmm <affirmative>.

Kevin Goetz (15:07):

Damn. I'm floored by that. I'm sorry. So tell me about that though. How has that manifested in your life?

*Suzanne de Passe (15:15):

I think there's an energetic fuel that comes from the world. You know, your environment. And that fuel is received, by me anyway, in things that I'm interested in. And I'm excited by them.

Kevin Goetz (15:33):

Insatiably curious.

Suzanne de Passe (15:34):

And I'm extremely curious, but I'm also easily distracted from something I'm pursuing 'cause something else comes along.

Kevin Goetz (15:43):

But let me ask you about the other thing that I observe from your career, which is your eye.

Suzanne de Passe (15:51):

Hmm.

Kevin Goetz (15:51):

Your ability to identify talent, to identify something special, different, unique. Is that fair to say that that is a gift?

*Suzanne de Passe (16:02):

I think so. I think it is a gift. And I think that I have been quoted as saying that if I have any talent at all, it is recognizing the talent of others and having a good idea what to do with it.

Kevin Goetz (16:16):

Wow. Let's get to getting into the work world. You were young when you met Berry Gordy. Mm-hmm <affirmative>. How did you meet Berry?

Suzanne de Passe (16:22):

I had a friend who was with a group called Patti LaBelle. And the Blue Bells, her name is Cindy Birdsong.

Kevin Goetz (16:29):

Wait, Supremes.

Suzanne de Passe (16:31):

Yeah. And Cindy was tapped by Motown to leave the Bluebells and join the Supremes to replace Florence Ballard. And Cindy and I were friends, and she was coming to New York to do her first Ed Sullivan show. And I, by that time, was the talent coordinator of a club called Cheetah,

Kevin Goetz (16:53):

Where was Cheetah

Suzanne de Passe (16:54):

52nd Street and Broadway, diagonally across the street from what is now the Ed Sullivan Theater. And so I wanted to take Cindy out for dinner to celebrate. And for some reason I rented a limousine that I couldn't afford because I wasn't sure we would be able to get cabs. And it was showing off a little bit.

Kevin Goetz (17:14):

So you are in this rented limousine,

*Suzanne de Passe (17:16):

Sitting in the backseat behind the driver. This is important because I'm behind the driver. I wanted to go inside, but I'm much too well bred to go where I'm not invited. I could hear my mother, you know, <laugh>. So Cindy came out and said the words that changed my life forever. Now, mind you, this is 1967. She leaned in the car and she said, Suzanne, Mr. Gordy's car has gone on an errand and he needs a ride to an appointment. Can we take him? So the first time I met Berry Gordy, I gave him a ride in my limousine that I couldn't afford. He had an appointment at an art gallery. He, first of all was astonished to see this kid

Kevin Goetz (17:59):

With a limo.

Suzanne de Passe (18:00):

With a limo. And I could tell he was trying to put it together. So when we got to his appointment, couldn't have been more than 20 minutes, he said, well, don't leave me. Come on in. So he went in the back and did whatever he was doing. He comes back out, we get back in the limo. He says, well, why don't you guys come to dinner at the Essex house? Which was where they were all staying.

Kevin Goetz (18:20):

By the way you were invited in there.

Suzanne de Passe (18:21):

I know. I was invited. So there, I didn't have the presence of mind to release the limousine. Now, meanwhile, the Essex House is only like five blocks away from my five flight walk up on East 57th Street, where I have a roommate who had gone to New Lincoln also.

Kevin Goetz (18:37):

You're like 21, 22.

Suzanne de Passe (18:39):

No, no, no. I'm 20. And in those days, in New York, you could drink at 18.

Kevin Goetz (18:44):

Oh yes. I remember <laugh>. But I'm from there too, by the way.

Suzanne de Passe (18:47):

But the <laugh>, I lived at three 15 East 57th Street on the fifth floor. I think the closest landmark is across the street from what is now Mr. Chow.

Kevin Goetz (18:57):

Mm-hmm <affirmative>.

*Suzanne de Passe (18:58):

But it wasn't there then. So I could have walked home easily, but I was so swept up. And then we went in for dinner and all of his security team and entourage and all these people were just, where have you been? You know, <laugh>. And he's a little mischievous. So he was very happy to have had an alternative to give them the slip, so to speak, which he did.

Kevin Goetz (19:23):

So now you're at the Essex house.

Suzanne de Passe (19:25):

We're at the Essex house in the dining room. They're bringing him the phone. They're whispering in his ear. There's a whole thing going on. And I'm like, fascinated.

Kevin Goetz (19:33):

Absolutely.

Suzanne de Passe (19:33):

Never seen anything quite like that. And we had dinner and Cindy and I really didn't get a chance to talk. So the next day I went back over, because they had a concert at the Westbury Music Fair that night. Motown had booked them on the day off to do a concert.

Kevin Goetz (19:51):

Very big arena space.

Suzanne de Passe (19:53):

In the round.

Kevin Goetz (19:53):

Right. For those of you who don't know back east.

*Suzanne de Passe (19:56):

Yeah. And so I went back and Cindy and I are in her suite and talking, and you know, I'm so excited for her and looking forward to watching the show the next night and all of that. And we're catching up about girly stuff. Get in the elevator, the elevator's coming down, elevator stops, door's open and there waiting to get on the elevator in a poochie dress with a Maltese puppy on her arm and a Sassoon wig and the eyelashes is Diana Ross.

Kevin Goetz (20:27):

Oh, by herself? Mm-hmm <affirmative>. Oh Lord.

Suzanne de Passe (20:30):

Gets on the elevator. Cindy introduces me. She's politely cold. And we go down onto the street, 59th Street, and there are two limos there. And Ms. Ross gets in the first limo and, and Mary Wilson get in the second limo, <laugh>. And this was, oh, this couldn't be, you can't make this up. This was the beginning of,

Kevin Goetz (20:54):

Yeah,

Suzanne de Passe (20:54):

It becoming Diana Ross and the Supremes.

Kevin Goetz (20:58):

And you could feel the tension.

*Suzanne de Passe (21:00):

Not so much that I could feel the tension, but I had a different reaction when those two limos pulled away. And I'm standing under the Essex house sign. And I looked at that and I said to myself, one day, that's gonna be me.

Kevin Goetz (21:16):

I knew you were gonna say that. I love that. I want that.

Suzanne de Passe (21:19):

Mm-hmm <affirmative>.

Kevin Goetz (21:19):

World. Mm-hmm

Suzanne de Passe (21:20):

<affirmative>.

Kevin Goetz (21:21):

Whose limo did you want to be in?

Suzanne de Passe (21:23):

I wanted to be in the atmosphere of what that all means.

Kevin Goetz (21:32):

When we come back, we're gonna talk to Suzanne about the beginnings of Motown and the extraordinary film and television career she had. We'll be back in a moment. Listeners, The Motion Picture Television Fund is a nonprofit charitable organization that supports working and retired members of the entertainment community. This wonderfully run organization offers assistance for living and aging with dignity and purpose in the areas of health and social services, including temporary financial assistance, case management, and residential living. And has been a crucial lifeline to thousands during and beyond critical times that our industry continues to experience. To learn more, visit mptf.com. Please join me in helping others in our industry during times of need. There are so many ways to offer support and get involved. Thank you. We are back with the legendary Suzanne de Passe. Suzanne, I want to now talk about Motown. So you take that unbelievable evening, then that morning you're saying, I want be in that orbit. I want to be in that space. How do you get the job with Berry and how does he promote you in the next few years?

*Suzanne de Passe (23:01):

I think it's fair to say that I had no expectation that I was gonna end up at Motown. But over the course of the next several months, they were in New York a lot. And by they, I mean, either Mr. Gordy came with Smokey Robinson, or Diana Ross came, you know, to go shopping. And I kind of became the go-to person in New York.

Kevin Goetz (23:29):

The liaison.

Suzanne de Passe (23:30):

Yeah. I knew the restaurants, I knew the clubs. I knew I knew a lot. Absolutely. I was a Manhattan girl. That borough I knew well. So I did end up spending some additional time with them. Cindy invited me at the end of 1967. Christmas week. I flew to Miami at her invitation, paid for my own ticket, of course. But to spend from the 26th through New Year's, they were appearing at the Ville Hotel, they being the Supremes. And by this time, I had a different job. I had been poached from Cheetah to work for a man called Howard Stein. He had created something called the Sound of the Month Club. And the Sound of the Month Club was in the business of selling concert tickets for Lee Guber's, five theaters.

Kevin Goetz (24:28):

Oh.

Suzanne de Passe (24:28):

Lee Guber was married to Barbara Walters at the time, and he had five theaters that played musicals like Camelot and My Fair Lady.

Kevin Goetz (24:39):

Like The Schubert's or the Nederlanders.

Suzanne de Passe (24:41):

Yeah. But these were regional. See, these theaters were in Michigan and Long Island. It was Westbury was one of them. And I can't even remember all the cities now.

Kevin Goetz (24:51):

It used to call 'em Circuits, didn't they?

Suzanne de Passe (24:52):

But yeah, his five theaters were playing book musicals. And in between the book musicals coming in were weekends that were free.

Kevin Goetz (25:03):

So you could book concerts or whatever.

Suzanne de Passe (25:04):

Exactly

Kevin Goetz (25:05):

It was.

Suzanne de Passe (25:05):

And Howard had worked out a deal with Lee Guber to sell tickets, and he hired me to book the Talent. And after a week of watching The Supremes in Miami, where did I sit? I sat with Berry Gordy, his kids, his sisters and brothers. And he came from a family of eight. He had three brothers and four sisters, one of whom had passed away by the time I met him. One of the sisters, Lucy. And I got to be more comfortable with him. And one day we were getting ready to go down to the show, and there were two of them, the Dinner show and the Late Show. And there's a Bank of six elevators. Because the way the suites were located, the Doville Hotel had these penthouse suites with two stories. And then the room connecting Diana Ross's suite with Berry Gordy suite was the room that Cindy and I were sharing.

Kevin Goetz (26:06):

Oh, <laugh>.

Suzanne de Passe (26:07):

So it was everybody running through and very family oriented. It was a lot of fun.

Kevin Goetz (26:12):

Did Diana warm up to you by this time?

Suzanne de Passe (26:15):

Yeah, because we had gone shopping in New York. She had called me to go shopping.

Kevin Goetz (26:18):

All it takes is a good shopping trip that's absolutely for two gals to bond, right?

Suzanne de Passe (26:21):

Absolutely. And it was a fun week, you know, it was really fun.

Kevin Goetz (26:25):

Sure.

Suzanne de Passe (26:26):

So we're standing by the bank of elevators, and Mr. Gordy looks at me and he says, okay, $5, which elevator comes first. You know, that kind of thing. And at the table waiting for the show, he wanted to play games of logic and tell jokes. And there was a kind of a round game called Seven Up that I had to learn. You know?

Kevin Goetz (26:47):

 It was not Bid whis.

Suzanne de Passe (26:48):

No, no, no. It was, there were no cards at the dinner show. <laugh>. No, I play Bid Whis, but that's in Martha's Vineyard. Anyway, one of the things that he, you know, it's one of those, if a bus goes down the street and its two people get on, four people get off.

Kevin Goetz (27:02):

Oh, gotcha.

Suzanne de Passe (27:03):

It's how many stops did the bus make?

Kevin Goetz (27:04):

I would failed miserably.

Suzanne de Passe (27:06):

He liked to see, 'cause remember his kids were there

Kevin Goetz (27:09):

And, and you probably were good at em.

Suzanne de Passe (27:12):

Well, the one thing that I was good at, one of the things that he thought was so clever was a plane crashes on the border of Switzerland and Italy. What side did they bury the survivors on? And of course I said, well, typically Mr. Gordy, they do not bury survivors. And he thought that was pretty smart <laugh>. So anyway,

Kevin Goetz (27:32):

It got you a job.

Suzanne de Passe (27:32):

Well, what happened was, after several evenings of that, I felt more comfortable to say to him, after the New Year's Eve show, Diana Ross had a reception up in her suite. And I felt comfortable enough to say to him at that point, you know, Mr. Gordy, I have a new job and I'm having a wonderful time booking Sonny and Cher and Simon and Garfunkel.

Kevin Goetz (27:59):

Oh, you're talking major acts that you booked.

Suzanne de Passe (28:01):

Oh, yeah. All these acts 'cause I was working with the agencies in New York.

Kevin Goetz (28:05):

Yeah, I get it. I didn't know that they were of that caliber.

Suzanne de Passe (28:07):

Oh yeah. And I said, but I can never get answers on the Motown acts.

Kevin Goetz (28:12):

Ooh,

Suzanne de Passe (28:13):

I deal with the William Morris agency. They have to call someone called Mr. Abner, and he doesn't let them know if so-and-so's available, you know, if Smokey's available, or the Four Tops, or Temptations, whatever. And he looked at me and he said, well, I don't know what's wrong, but maybe we need someone like you to help us figure it out.

Kevin Goetz (28:35):

You betcha.

Suzanne de Passe (28:36):

And two weeks later, they flew me out for my interview.

Kevin Goetz (28:40):

You become the creative assistant,

Suzanne de Passe (28:42):

Uhhuh <affirmative>

Kevin Goetz (28:43):

To Berry Gordy.

Suzanne de Passe (28:43):

Yeah.

Kevin Goetz (28:44):

So what was your primary job when you arrived in Detroit, too?

Suzanne de Passe (28:48):

Based on submissions, give him my opinion,

Kevin Goetz (28:52):

Basically like an a and r.

Suzanne de Passe (28:54):

Well, people were submitting demos and projects of various things. 

Kevin Goetz (29:00):

Didn't he have people doing that?

Suzanne de Passe (29:01):

Look, Motown was set up with a lot of exclusive writers and producers. But I think he wanted his office to be more responsive and responsible.

Kevin Goetz (29:15):

Absolutely.

Suzanne de Passe (29:16):

You know, Berry Gordy is first and foremost a very creative songwriter.

Kevin Goetz (29:21):

I didn't know that.

Suzanne de Passe (29:22):

The reason that Motown got started was because he wasn't getting paid for the songs that he was writing for people like Jackie Wilson. In other words, if I'm not gonna get paid, I might as well not pay myself, kind of thing.

Kevin Goetz (29:35):

Yeah, of course.

*Suzanne de Passe (29:36):

And so there's a very famous story that his family had a co-op, and he was able to borrow $800 from the family aggregate of money, you know, the family bank, if you wanna call it that. And he used that money to make his first record. Wow. And it went on from there. So what's interesting about his trajectory was the more successful Motown became, the less time he had to devote to songwriting and producing.

Kevin Goetz (30:06):

Yeah. That was probably an itch that needed to be scratched for sure.

Suzanne de Passe (30:10):

By the time I got to the company, it was all very, very successful. And he was still competing with his producers and writers for releases. But then that had to eventually go away.

Kevin Goetz (30:24):

Let me ask you about the Jackson five. Mm-hmm <affirmative>. Who told you about them originally? 

Suzanne de Passe (30:28):

When I moved into 1300 East Lafayette Street in Detroit, it was a high rise building that housed a lot of Motown talent, executive talent, recording talent, producing talent, writing talent. You know?

Kevin Goetz (30:43):

Sure.

*Suzanne de Passe (30:44):

Diana Ross had the penthouse, although she had a home in the city and she traveled a lot. But she had the penthouse. Other executives were in there. And some of the artists, One of the artists was a man called Bobby Taylor. Bobby Taylor was the lead singer of a group called Bobby Taylor and the Vancouvers, their big hit record was, does your mama know about me? It's a great record. And he called me and said, Hey, I want you to come down 'cause it was becoming known that I worked for Mr. Gordy. And he said, I want you to come down to my apartment. There's something I want you to see. I said, Bobby Taylor, I'm not coming to your apartment.

Kevin Goetz (31:25):

This is before Harvey Weinstein.

Suzanne de Passe (31:27):

Right. <laugh>. He said, oh, it's nothing like that. Come on down. Went down to his apartment and there spread across his living room with these kids.

Kevin Goetz (31:39):

You mean they were there?

*Suzanne de Passe (31:40):

Yeah. And he clapped his hands and he said, okay, this is Suzanne de Passe. She works for Mr. Gordy and she can help us get the audition. They got up, they sang like four songs, acapella, hair on the back of my neck flew up. I got it. It doesn't take a genius to recognize what they were. And I went back to my apartment. I think this was like late on a Friday or something. I didn't get him right away. And when I finally did speak with him on the telephone, I said, oh, Mr. Gordy, I just,

Kevin Goetz (32:13):

You called him Mr. Gordy.

Suzanne de Passe (32:15):

I still do. I mean, I refer to him that way.

Kevin Goetz (32:19):

It's only charlatan's like myself who call him Berry, because we don't know better.

*Suzanne de Passe (32:23):

You're right. <laugh>. No, but I mean, I think that certainly I called him Mr. Gordy for years, and I always refer to him as Mr. Gordy, even though I call him BG, Berry, chairman, chair, whatever, chairsy <laugh> I, I have a lot of bad names for him. And I said, Mr. Gordy, I just saw a great act I think we should sign. He said, great. I said, wait until you see these kids. He went, kids, I don't want any kid acts. Do you know how much trouble Stevie Wonder is <laugh>? And basically I said, no, I don't. I just got here.

Kevin Goetz (33:01):

Why was Stevie a problem?

Suzanne de Passe (33:03):

Well, you know, it's court approval and teacher welfare workers,

Kevin Goetz (33:07):

Same reason they don't wanna employ in a movie. If you have a 16 or 17, you wanna get an 18-year-old. Right. Because you don't deal with child labor laws.

Suzanne de Passe (33:13):

Exactly. And kids require a lot. And I think my claim to fame, if there is something to be claimed there is, I did not give up. I was relentless till he saw them.

Kevin Goetz (33:26):

You mean? It was hard to get him to see them.

Suzanne de Passe (33:28):

Yeah.

Kevin Goetz (33:28):

Wow. And once he did,

Suzanne de Passe (33:30):

He put the entire resource of the company behind them.

Kevin Goetz (33:33):

Wow. Wow. Wow. Our dear mutual friend, Graham King is of course working on the movie Michael.

Suzanne de Passe (33:42):

Mm-hmm <affirmative>.

Kevin Goetz (33:42):

Which I am dying to see. Michael is going to be, I believe, an extraordinary picture based on the conversations I've had with Graham over the last few years. It is the project that he's always been wanting to do desperately. He believes in it with every ounce of passion. And I don't know if you know this, do you know how he met the Jacksons? He was working in a gas station when he first got here from England.

Suzanne de Passe (34:14):

I don't think I know this part.

Kevin Goetz (34:15):

He was working at a gas station. He was a student at UCLA, and he was just trying to make ends meet. And Jermaine Jackson pulls in with his wife, Hazel, who happened to be Berry Gordy's daughter. And they started talking and they kind of hit it off. I mean, Graham was charming with his British accent. And Jermaine mentioned in the course of this conversation that he and his brothers play softball at a local park on Saturday mornings. And would he Graham like to join them sometime? He said, sure. So he went and he said, you know, Michael would show up sometimes. And it was the beginning of this lifelong friendship. And he reveres the family. Really does. And so I am so anxious. And listeners, I hope you have the same sort of level of anticipation that I do for this. Michael was beyond a singular talent. What was your relationship like with him?

*Suzanne de Passe (35:07):

I had a great relationship with Michael and the brothers. It was funny over the course of the journey that we took together, because Mr. Gordy placed me in charge of everything to do with the group beside recording the music. That was what he was leading on.

Kevin Goetz (35:26):

Where was Joseph during this time?

Suzanne de Passe (35:28):

Joseph was brooding and basically sidelined. He was the father and he called the family shots. But the Motown machinery was in full force, in effect,

Kevin Goetz (35:41):

That couldn't have gone over well with him.

Suzanne de Passe (35:43):

I think one of the reasons that he took the group away at the end of the contract was he knew he could never be in charge in the Motown environment. He brought them to a certain point when I saw them.

Kevin Goetz (35:57):

Absolutely. You gotta give them that.

Suzanne de Passe (35:58):

Absolutely. And then we took over.

Kevin Goetz (36:01):

You bet.

*Suzanne de Passe (36:01):

Mr. Gordy put together teams of people, the corporation, the clan, to create the records. And my cousin and I, my cousin Tony Jones, who was working with me, and I was really thrilled that he came for a weekend and is still here. <laugh> <laugh>. He could do a lot of the things with the boys, especially the older boys that would be uncomfortable for them and for me as a young woman. But what was so interesting to me as I look back is that Tony and I took the ride with them from anonymity to super stardom that nobody knows about. Wow. And they kind of pick up the story after Michael becomes a solo act. And what I find fascinating is all those years that we were together, basically,

Kevin Goetz (37:03):

Was there any resentment from Mr. Gordy or yourself that Michael went to a different label?

Suzanne de Passe (37:09):

No, it was more emotional than that. It was not anger, it was disappointment.

Kevin Goetz (37:16):

Sure, of course.

Suzanne de Passe (37:17):

Yeah. Of course.

Kevin Goetz (37:18):

He was a, I guess a father figure in many ways.

Suzanne de Passe (37:22):

Oh, Berry Gordy was definitely father figure to Michael.

Kevin Goetz (37:25):

Yeah, a hundred percent. Right.

Suzanne de Passe (37:26):

You know? And remember Michael played the Scarecrow in the Wiz long after he had left Motown.

Kevin Goetz (37:32):

Did you put that together?

Suzanne de Passe (37:33):

I did not. What I did was I brought the person who had the rights to the Wiz over to what was then Motown Productions.

Kevin Goetz (37:43):

When did you take that over?

Suzanne de Passe (37:43):

Under Rob Cohen in 1982.

Kevin Goetz (37:47):

And what are you most proud of in taking over Motown Productions?

*Suzanne de Passe (37:51):

Motown 25. That was my first show.

Kevin Goetz (37:54):

Listeners. You should know that last year Suzanne was inducted into the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame. An amazing honor. An extraordinary honor. Really.

Suzanne de Passe (38:04):

Yeah.

Kevin Goetz (38:04):

And what was that night like for you

Suzanne de Passe (38:07):

Being inducted into the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame as an executive?

Kevin Goetz (38:11):

It's almost unheard of, right? Any women?

*Suzanne de Passe (38:14):

Yes. Um, I was the fifth woman. The first three women got it with their songwriting husbands, Carole King and JerryGoffin like that. Cynthia Wild. The fourth woman was Sylvia Robinson, who got it posthumously. And the fifth woman was me.

Kevin Goetz (38:35):

Wow.

Suzanne de Passe (38:35):

So I'm technically the first solo living, living recipients among legends of male recipients. It's the Ahmet Ertegun Award.

Kevin Goetz (38:46):

That's the top award, isn't it?

Suzanne de Passe (38:49):

Yeah. Everybody from David Geffen to Berry Gordy to Clive Davis, you know, all of the really, really,

Kevin Goetz (38:56):

Oh God, that must have been just a night.

Suzanne de Passe (38:58):

It was. I look back on it and fortunately I can watch it on Disney Plus, and I am truly blown away. I never thought it could happen. When I got the call,

Kevin Goetz (39:12):

Who called you?

*Suzanne de Passe (39:13):

I was minding my business and my cell phone rang. John Platt comes up on the thing, says Suzanne. I said, yes. And he said, hold on a minute, I wanna get Rob on the phone. I said, who? He said, Rob Light. And then Rob comes on the phone and one of them said, I don't even remember which one. After hello and all of that, are you sitting down? I said, well, I am now <laugh>, you know? And they said, we are delighted to inform you. Whoop. Okay. Touched, and I burst into tears, you know, they said, we are delighted to inform you that you're going to be inducted into the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame, Ahmet Ertegun award, blah, blah, blah. And I didn't just cry. I mean, those tears flew outta my, they didn't go down my cheeks. They went out into the universe.

Kevin Goetz (40:06):

Well, it's like in your field, it doesn't get bigger.

Suzanne de Passe (40:10):

No, it doesn't.

Kevin Goetz (40:11):

You did so many productions, movies, television, cable, linear, <laugh>, what stands out? Because we could probe that for an entire nother episode. Mm-hmm <affirmative>. But what stands out during that period of time? Lonesome Dove, you did.

Suzanne de Passe (40:28):

Right.

Kevin Goetz (40:28):

I mean, gosh, was that your idea? To turn that into a movie?

Suzanne de Passe (40:33):

Lonesome Dove. This is what I think I mean about being enthusiastic and being interested. I met Larry McMurtry when my ex-husband, Paul, and Matt and I were at Canyon Ranch in Tucson, Arizona,

Kevin Goetz (40:48):

Not too shabby. <laugh>.

Suzanne de Passe (40:49):

And Gloria Steinem was there, and she and Mort Zuckerman were dating at the time. And I ran into Gloria Steinem in the women's locker room and she said, Hey Suzanne, you know, Morton and I are going off campus tonight for dinner. Do you and Paul wanna go? And I had had about enough of that lettuce, you know, <laugh>. So she said.

Kevin Goetz (41:13):

We're there.

*Suzanne de Passe (41:14):

She said, we're going for Mexican. I said, yes, <laugh>. So we go to dinner and she said, we're joining some friends. And the friends that they were joining were Larry McMurtry. And a friend of his, a woman called Leslie Silko, a wonderful author. And Larry and I just started talking and we hit off. I said, next time you're in LA, I'd love to take you to lunch. He called me and off we go to lunch. And I said, well, what do you have? I kind of got to the point, you know, of course 'cause at this point, of course, you know terms of

Kevin Goetz (41:45):

<crosstalk>, but you have lying around Larry.

Suzanne de Passe (41:46):

Yeah. I said, what's kicking around the old trunk that hasn't been produced yet? And he said, I have a book coming out in June, but you probably wouldn't be interested in it. It's a Western.

Kevin Goetz (41:57):

Fair play.

Suzanne de Passe (41:58):

I said, well, I would be interested. I love the West. I love horses. I'm a horsewoman.

Kevin Goetz (42:02):

Oh,

Suzanne de Passe (42:03):

Blah, blah, blah. He said, well call Swifty Lazar and my agent and let him know. I said, I will. And I did. And you got it. And I got unbound galleys in ream boxes. And I took home a box a night. And I thought it was great. But I didn't even finish it before I made that call to,

Kevin Goetz (42:23):

You know, that's a very common occurrence. When someone is passionate about something, they read it halfway through and they say, we're in.

Suzanne de Passe (42:31):

Yeah.

Kevin Goetz (42:32):

I've heard that story so many times. It's so interesting.

Suzanne de Passe (42:35):

It's not that I didn't finish the book, but I see it

Kevin Goetz (42:37):

<laugh>. I got what you're saying. Of course. You were so taken with it. You said, this is something I wanna spend two years of my life doing.

Suzanne de Passe (42:43):

Right. And I called Irving, he charged me $50,000 for an option.

Kevin Goetz (42:51):

For how long?

Suzanne de Passe (42:52):

18 months.

Kevin Goetz (42:53):

It's a lot of money for 18 months.

Suzanne de Passe (42:55):

I didn't know better then. So I spent $50,000 of Berry Gordy's money on a book that I came to find out had been passed on by everybody.

Kevin Goetz (43:05):

Thank you Swifty.

Suzanne de Passe (43:07):

That's why they call him Swifty <laugh>. And a woman who was working with us at the time, Diane Safallow, she was working in Motown Productions. She had worked at Warner Brothers and she came in and gave me the Warner Brothers coverage of Lonesome Dove, which was horrible.

Kevin Goetz (43:30):

Ooh. Some person killed that project who didn't get it

Suzanne de Passe (43:35):

Right.

Kevin Goetz (43:36):

Ooh.

Suzanne de Passe (43:37):

Mm-hmm <affirmative>.

Kevin Goetz (43:38):

And now that's probably a great piece of advice. You tell young people coming in coverage. It's like, you better be very careful about,

Suzanne de Passe (43:45):

Well, not only that, but you know, now that there's AI and everybody plops into AI and stuff like that. But I just believe there's no substitute for the human emotional response.

Kevin Goetz (43:55):

Instinct. Instinct.

Suzanne de Passe (43:56):

Yeah.

Kevin Goetz (43:56):

Just that alchemy. Absolutely.

Suzanne de Passe (43:58):

So then Larry McMurtry and I spent a good deal of time together trying to figure out what to do because all of the, he knew that too, Larry, that everyone passed. I don't think he did. I think he came to know it.

Kevin Goetz (44:11):

Right.

Suzanne de Passe (44:11):

You know, because we spent a lot of time.

Kevin Goetz (44:12):

So you're in a dilemma going, what am I gonna do here? Right. Who's gonna develop it with me? Who did?

Suzanne de Passe (44:17):

So Larry and I met with directors. We thought, well, if we get a director

Kevin Goetz (44:21):

Mm-hmm <affirmative>.

Suzanne de Passe (44:22):

We can figure this out. So we met with John Houston, we met with John Milius, we met with Peter Bogdanovich. And somewhere along the way, Larry looked at me and he said, Suzanne, I'm written out on this. I have to get onto my next project.

Kevin Goetz (44:36):

Right.

Suzanne de Passe (44:37):

And so off he went.

Kevin Goetz (44:38):

Did you pay him for a script?

Suzanne de Passe (44:40):

No, he didn't write a script. He had written a treatment.

Kevin Goetz (44:45):

And now I've taken it where I can now you take it. And

Suzanne de Passe (44:48):

We've done as much as we can do together. And I was really trying to figure it out. And one spring morning, Mr. Lazar called me and said, kid, I want you to know that this morning, Larry McMurtry's, Lonesome Dove has won the Pulitzer Prize for fiction.

Kevin Goetz (45:07):

Suzanne, you have fairy dust sprinkled <laugh> around you. This serendipitous stuff that has happened.

Suzanne de Passe (45:13):

Mm-hmm <affirmative>.

Kevin Goetz (45:14):

There are no accidents.

Suzanne de Passe (45:14):

No, no. I don't believe in accidents. I believe in divine intervention.

Kevin Goetz (45:18):

Who ended up doing it, by the way,

Suzanne de Passe (45:20):

CBS

Kevin Goetz (45:21):

Genius,

Suzanne de Passe (45:22):

Peter Frankovich bought it.

Kevin Goetz (45:24):

Bought it

Suzanne de Passe (45:24):

For the network.

Kevin Goetz (45:25):

Got it. And who directed it?

Suzanne de Passe (45:27):

Simon Wincer.

Kevin Goetz (45:28):

Oh, he's wonderful. Free Willy.

Suzanne de Passe (45:29):

Yeah. Didn't you win all kinds of Emmys? We were nominated for 19, we won 11, I think.

Kevin Goetz (45:37):

Oh my Lord.

Suzanne de Passe (45:38):

But we didn't win best miniseries.

Kevin Goetz (45:40):

That's all right.

Suzanne de Passe (45:41):

We won the Golden Globe for the best miniseries.

Kevin Goetz (45:42):

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Suzanne de Passe (45:44):

We got a Peabody.

Kevin Goetz (45:45):

You have a few Peabody, don't you? Yeah. Mm-hmm <affirmative>. Yeah. God,

(45:47):

<laugh> Awards. Awards. Awards. <laugh>. So my new book How to Score in Hollywood has come out and it's doing quite well, thank God. And the book is about understanding before you shoot a frame of film, making the best business decisions you possibly can. Mm-hmm <affirmative>. Understanding the audience, not in the creation 'cause that's art, that's between you and the universe, or the writer or the creator and the gods. But once you memorialize something, a treatment, a script, et cetera, I advocate very strongly for involving the audience and to know what you have, what the intensity of interest is, how large or sizing that audience correctly. Because then you can make decisions that are far more responsible in your career. Have you used audience research? No. Never dial testing on series or No. Why?

Suzanne de Passe (46:45):

I'm not saying that the networks haven't, in other words,

Kevin Goetz (46:48):

Yeah, they of course did. Even Sister Sister, I think.

Suzanne de Passe (46:50):

Yeah.

Kevin Goetz (46:50):

I bought a company, remember the preview house.

Suzanne de Passe (46:53):

Yes. I had been to the preview house.

Kevin Goetz (46:55):

I bought that company. Mm-hmm <affirmative>. About a dozen years ago.

Suzanne de Passe (46:58):

Yeah, good for you.

Kevin Goetz (46:58):

So it thrust us in the TV business as a result of that. But that was a seminal moment for Screen Engine, my company, because we were really a movie company. And now it made us much more of a content company, if you will.

*Suzanne de Passe (47:12):

Right. Not because of any particular bias to testing, but because as an independent producer, that's not my job. My job is to pick well, package well, execute well, and then somebody else can contest it at whatever point that comes in the process. I will never forget, we were on a terrible deadline for the Temptations miniseries for NBC. And we happened to be in post across the street from what was then the NBC lot in the Valley. And a new executive was put on the release. This was a Friday. It was going up on the satellite Sunday for broadcast back in the East before it aired in the West. And he brings us over, and Suzanne Coston, one of my great colleagues, she started as my secretary, became the president of my company later. And we were on deadline. We hadn't had any sleep. And he brings us over and he says, I don't wanna disappoint you. I know you're working hard, but the testing on the Temptations is horrible.

Kevin Goetz (48:26):

Oh.

Suzanne de Passe (48:27):

And I said, how could it be tested? It's not finished. We're across the street. We're finishing it. Sound isn't corrected. The this, the that. You know? And he said, well, of course, you know, we tested and I just wanted to give you a heads up. So we had to go back over, do another all-nighter with that burden.

Kevin Goetz (48:45):

Of course.

Suzanne de Passe (48:46):

Seven o'clock in the morning, Monday after the first episode aired. Suzanne? Yes. Hi, it's Scott Sassa from NBC. I said, hi Scott. He said, well girl, I wanna tell you, congratulations it went through the roof and let's get together soon and talk about doing something like The Supremes. So for me, testing, and I do believe everything is tested, but I also believe there would never be a flop because you would never put out something that tested badly. Do you know what I mean?

Kevin Goetz (49:22):

I do. But they always do put out things that are less, because a lot of them are baked in the DNA and they have to proceed or want to proceed or choose proceed. 

Suzanne de Passe (49:31):

I guess my point is, if testing was fail safe,

Kevin Goetz (49:35):

It's not fail safe. It's a tool. Yeah. It's a tool. I talk about this and there's a lot of reasons as to why I believe that. I like to give my clients the best chance for success.

Suzanne de Passe (49:48):

Yeah.

Kevin Goetz (49:49):

But I'm not saying that you're gonna get anything guaranteed. My God, I would never be so stupid as to do that. Yeah. Or naive. But there are definitely decisions that could be made before you even start production. Mm-hmm <affirmative>. You mentioned your job as a producer was to do the, enter the execution, which is absolutely true. But in the packaging stage, I do believe that there's a fiduciary responsibility that would help producers be more successful and sell more if they understood the economics in a way that they could sell to the people they're pitching to. In other words, coming in and saying, we think this is gonna do this and this budget is here, could be your death nail. Because it could be like you're basically saying this way or the highway, as opposed to saying, you know, I know the audience is really strong here and I think this can be sold. And having that sort of data to prove it can go a long way. Yeah. And I've seen that happen,

Suzanne de Passe (50:48):

Maybe so

Kevin Goetz (50:49):

I've seen that.

Suzanne de Passe (50:49):

I think, I think that part of the job of a producer is to understand where their first target audience may reside

Kevin Goetz (50:58):

A hundred percent.

Suzanne de Passe (50:59):

And that the crossover to other quadrants, if you will, is the calculation of whether you even do the project in the first place.

Kevin Goetz (51:10):

That’s my point. You might say, I can't do it for this cost.

Suzanne de Passe (51:12):

Mm-hmm <affirmative>.

Kevin Goetz (51:13):

I wanna ask you about your new company. It's called

Suzanne de Passe (51:17):

Immortal Studio.

Kevin Goetz (51:18):

Immortal Studio. You have tremendous amount of financial backing, at least what I read in the trades.

Suzanne de Passe (51:23):

Mm-hmm <affirmative>.

Kevin Goetz (51:24):

Can you tell us about the company?

Suzanne de Passe (51:27):

My partner Madison Jones and my partner Cory Martin of Anderson DeRoche Law Firm. We have come together with Yangben Wang, a very committed and entrepreneurial investor in the company. And basically we are headed toward being able to do premium television series from day one. Because in the last period of time that we've been working on this, which has been substantial, we have full seasons already written scripted. Oh wow. So it's not about a pilot and a take and a this and a Bible and whatever.

Kevin Goetz (52:10):

It's kind of dead anyway, isn't it? The pilot,

*Suzanne de Passe (52:13):

I guess. I think our mission is we want to be able to reach the audience and create wonderful content that is financed in large part by our company

Kevin Goetz (52:30):

So that you can have the agency to keep the vision and not

Suzanne de Passe (52:34):

Right.

Kevin Goetz (52:35):

The more people that pee on something.

Suzanne de Passe (52:36):

Absolutely.

Kevin Goetz (52:37):

Is it always leads to mediocrity.

Suzanne de Passe (52:38):

Doesn't it? I call it the finger. Yeah. I call it the fingerprinting process. Yes. Everybody wants their fingerprints on it and stuff like that.

Kevin Goetz (52:44):

Yeah. I'm less elegant. <laugh>, <laugh>.

*Suzanne de Passe (52:46):

And to be able to engage in what really is the important part of the business, which is wonderful storytelling, well told and executed, that is commercial. And to have it be, when you're looking at it on the screen, a version of what you envisioned it to be in the first place.

Kevin Goetz (53:09):

Absolutely. Part of what our testing also does is keeps you honest. It starts at the process of pre green light, brings it into what we call capability. Mm-hmm <affirmative>. Pre green light, then we bring it into playability, which is the actual thing that you've produced, the pilot, the series, the full into marketability, and then into buzzability. So we're measuring all through the life cycle. Are you staying within the vision that you set out to make?

Suzanne de Passe (53:34):

Right.

Kevin Goetz (53:35):

Which I think is very important. Are you encouraged by the future with the streamers, with new vertical format that's coming out now? Like or are you horrified by it?

Suzanne de Passe (53:44):

No, I'm not horrified at all. I'm very bullish on what the condition of the business is allowing people like us to do.

Kevin Goetz (53:53):

I agree with you. I am very optimistic and I think there's a lot of opportunity. Whenever I say that, what I just said, I get at least a half a dozen phone calls from people wanting to take me to lunch to say, can you just articulate those areas of opportunity? I'd love to hear what they are.

Suzanne de Passe (54:11):

Mm-hmm

Kevin Goetz (54:11):

<affirmative>. Where do you think the biggest opportunity lies right now?

*Suzanne de Passe (54:14):

I think the biggest opportunity lies in several places, but a very large opportunity to me is in being nimble and being able to adapt to this very fast moving environment. And I think that a lot of the bigger companies are being sort of saddled down with a bureaucracy and a procedural requirement that makes it very business focused, but not artist friendly, you know.

Kevin Goetz (54:46):

Is it fair to say Immortal Studio will take the artist friendly approach and be nimble and pivot accordingly?

Suzanne de Passe (54:52):

Absolutely.

Kevin Goetz (54:54):

Was that a leading setup or what.

Suzanne de Passe (54:55):

Thank you, <laugh>.

Kevin Goetz (54:57):

I mean, seriously, right?

Suzanne de Passe (54:58):

Yes.

Kevin Goetz (54:58):

I feel like that is where you come from, what you've created in your life. And now in your next chapter, what you're gonna take to fruition.

*Suzanne de Passe (55:08):

I think there's more money than great operations and ideas. Money is not the problem. Money is a source of fuel for concepts that are worthy.

Kevin Goetz (55:22):

Are the networks dead?

Suzanne de Passe (55:24):

I don't think they're dead. I just think that they need to do some pivoting themselves.

Kevin Goetz (55:28):

You know, is linear television dead 'cause cable really is going,

Suzanne de Passe (55:31):

Yeah. 

Kevin Goetz (55:32):

You know down, down in terms of audience.

Suzanne de Passe (55:34):

I think that this period is one of a chaotic, very uncertain, very messy.

Kevin Goetz (55:44):

And from that comes great change.

*Suzanne de Passe (55:46):

From that comes great change and great opportunity. And I'm excited about the future. I'm excited about the projects that we've put together over these last few years and developed full seasons. So a lot of people wanna put their fingerprints on it and they wanna be involved and they wanna, but there are some places I believe that will say, thank you, God, I just saved five or eight or 10 or however many millions of dollars of speculative money 'cause I can read and say, I like it, I hate it.

Kevin Goetz (56:15):

I would only add one thing to that, and I won't say anything beyond this. I love what you said. I would just add the audience to the equation. They should get a seat at the table, not the decision maker, but a seat at the table 'cause you're making it for them.

Suzanne de Passe (56:31):

Mm-hmm <affirmative>.

Kevin Goetz (56:32):

That's my own thing.

Suzanne de Passe (56:33):

Well, you know, I think that you've touched on something that's very interesting to explore because in my experience, the ability to do that has been much more exotic and much more out of reach.

Kevin Goetz (56:46):

And used as a weapon, often,

Suzanne de Passe (56:49):

Very often.

Kevin Goetz (56:49):

Not as a tool.

Suzanne de Passe (56:50):

Not as a tool.

Kevin Goetz (56:51):

And I'm the first to say it. Suzanne de Passe, thank you so much for spending time with me, sharing your insights, opening up like you did. This was a joyous conversation and I hope you feel the same way.

Suzanne de Passe (57:03):

I do feel the same way. I enjoyed talking to you, and it's rare to have the opportunity to really share with people, a person who is so knowledgeable and so well versed and so shorthand in terms of not having to go to, well first there was camera and then we had to get to sound and.

Kevin Goetz (57:26):

<laugh>. Exactly. Exactly.

Suzanne de Passe (57:27):

You know, it's like very refreshing.

Kevin Goetz (57:29):

And I am dying to hear more about your projects at Immortal Studio. I can't wait to tell you about my book, How to Score in Hollywood.

Suzanne de Passe (57:36):

I can't wait to read it. And by the way, do not feel that I'm adverse to learning some new stuff.

Kevin Goetz (57:42):

I love that and it makes me further love you. Thank you so much. To our listeners, I hope you enjoy this conversation. For more insights into filmmaking, audience testing, and the business of Hollywood, I invite you to check out my books, Audienceology and How to Score in Hollywood at Amazon, or through my website at kevingoetz360.com. You can also follow me on my social media. Next time on Don't Kill the Messenger, I'll welcome the creatively inspirational director, producer, and screenwriter John M. Chu. Until then, I'm Kevin Goetz and to you, our listeners, I appreciate you being part of the movie making process. Your opinions matter.

Host: Kevin Goetz
Guest: Suzanne de Passe
Producer: Kari Campano
Writers: Kevin Goetz, Darlene Hayman, and Kari Campano
Audio Engineer: Gary Forbes (DG Entertainment)