Podcast: Don't Kill the Messenger with Movie Research Expert Kevin Goetz
Guest: Jon M. Chu

Interview Transcript:

Announcer (00:03):

From script to screen, every film is brought to life by visionary creatives and executives all sharing one mission – to captivate the audience. Hosted by award-winning movie strategist Kevin Goetz, our podcast Don't Kill The Messenger, offers a filmmaking masterclass through intimate conversations with Hollywood's most influential voices. And now your host, Kevin Goetz.

Kevin Goetz (00:29):

When my company tests movies with audiences, we sometimes recruit them blind or without a title. So people come in not exactly knowing what the movie is that they're seeing. And right before the film starts, I announced the title and the cast and the audience usually responds with some level of applause or cheering. And sometimes there's crickets. But over the past year or so when we've tested the film by my guest today, the response has been on an entirely different level. Literally when I said I am so excited to announce you are the first audience to see W…, as soon as say you heard the audience go ballistic nuts, I was literally blown back by the force of the reaction on those nights, which has been one of the most glorious expressions of love for a property I have ever experienced. The film, of course, Wicked for Good and my guest today is the extraordinary Jon Chu, a director, producer, and screenwriter who never disappoints and is such a good friend for joining me here today on what is his opening day of the movie. He has done so much press leading up to this moment. Jon and I were just chatting before we went on air to say that we don't even have grosses yet, but I know, I know kind of how great this movie's gonna do because I do tracking of movies before they come out. And I also have seen a glimpse of the audience reaction on Rotten Tomatoes, which sits somewhere in like 97%. Jon, it is an honor. You're the best. Thank you for joining me.

Jon Chu (02:17):

Oh, it's great to be here Kevin. Finally, we get to do this and you're there with this movie from the very beginning when we're the most insecure and you're there as we dive and dig in mind and try to find the right balance. And so it's really great to be here, especially on this morning. What a weird thing to release a movie of this scale and scope and this anticipation and it's just also another day for most people in the world. But for me, I'm just hanging on and just hoping for both my cast and crew that people go see this movie.

Kevin Goetz (02:47):

I am probably as nervous as you are in some weird way because I'm so invested with you, you know that I am always rooting for your success and for the movies. And as you said, the first Wicked screening that we did was an unbelievable experience in and of itself. And I remember being in Arizona with Donna Langley, the head of the studio and Mark Platt, the producer and of course you and the other presidents and studio heads, Peter Cramer, et cetera. Yeah. And after the screening pulling you all aside, do you remember this? And saying,

Jon Chu (03:25):

Mm-hmm

Kevin Goetz (03:25):

<affirmative> this is not little, this is huge. Now that may seem like stating the obvious, but as you said, when none of us knew anything with the fact that I could really hear the audience in a way that was intuitive and knowing what I know about the films I work up, I knew from the scores and from the focus group comments that this was a billion dollar property.

Jon Chu (03:53):

Mm-hmm.

Kevin Goetz (03:53):

Did you remember that?

*Jon Chu (03:55):

I do remember that. Like you said, it was not as obvious as it may feel now even making a movie of Wicked doesn't feel as obvious as it does now. Or finding Cynthia Erivo and Ariana Grande feels obvious now, but at that time people had a lot of questions, a lot of doubts. Wicked is an old fashioned musical in a way. It's not like Hamilton, it's not like In the Heights where they're sort of pushing the structure of what a musical can be. It's fairly traditional and at that point, musicals were declared dead again. And movies in general were being questioned of its existence and its place in our culture. So I'm very proud that I remember that moment because it was this rush of oxygen to be like, okay, people might actually care about this, in which case all or little details might pay off.

Kevin Goetz (04:42):

Well, you know, success has many parents <laugh>. Of course. Course. And so I'm just glomming on my friend, I'm just glomming on. Yes. I wanna ask you, were you nervous to accept this job?

*Jon Chu (04:54):

Yes, of course. I mean, there's so many directors in the wake of the sort of creation of Wicked that came before me, 20 years of different attempts and tries and you know, even when I was coming in it was sort of during COVID lockdown times and I had just done Crazy Rich Asians and In The Heights and I'd done a bunch of movies before that, a decade full of movies before that. And Crazy Rich Asians was a big shift for me. It was me growing up and saying, I need to do movies that A, are not sequels, and two that really show people who I am, show me who I am as a filmmaker 'cause I had finally felt like, I think I belong here. I think I know what I'm doing.

Kevin Goetz (05:30):

Right? It's not imposter syndrome.

Jon Chu (05:32):

<laugh>, it's not imposter syndrome. I felt like I hit my 10,000 hours. But then in a weird way, the question becomes bigger. What are you gonna do now? And with Crazy Rich Asian, there's a big risk. I told my team, I'm not gonna make money for you guys for like five years, but I need to do this. But with the success of crazy Rich Asians and In the Heights, there was this sort of thing in me of trying to express this idea of being an outsider, finding your own home, sort of the American dream remixed in how I as a son of immigrants growing up in a Chinese restaurant, being the product of generosity of many people, giving an opportunity to actually have the microphone for the world to hear. And so Wicked, I had to question, is this going back to a franchise thing? Can I say something in this material that's 20 years old? When I went back in and it was the words of Elphaba, something has changed within me. Something's not the same. I'm through with playing by the rules of someone else's game changed within me. Yes. There you go. There you go. You got that mic. It felt so relevant more than I had ever thought of those words.

Kevin Goetz (06:38):

Wow.

*Jon Chu (06:38):

And then imagining what it would be like as a person of color making a movie about the American dream in the most American fairytale and deconstructing it in a way that could be made for 2025. A place that at that point we were going through George Floyd we're going through era of government shutdown and trying to find out, oh wait, the adults don't know what they're doing and how are we now going to build this world and do we still believe in the greatness of fairytales and this American dream or is that dead? So I think the exploration of that really intrigued me and made me realize, oh this is a vehicle Wicked the show is a vehicle in which we can infuse this subversive message of maybe even a challenge to our generation, to the coming generations of who do we wanna be? What are the stories you wanna tell? And I had just become a father. So those questions were very much at the surface of it. And that's what pushed me over the edge of like, I have to do this. How could you not do this?

Kevin Goetz (07:43):

Well it's funny because the one that had the most to lose in a way was Mark Platt. Because

Jon Chu (07:48):

Yeah,

Kevin Goetz (07:48):

Mark was very reticent. He told me about doing the property because the stage show was the most successful stage show, I think in the history of Broadway. And that was a lot of a risk.

Jon Chu (07:59):

Yeah. No one wants to kill the billion dollar baby.

Kevin Goetz (08:01):

Yeah. So I thought that was kind of cool. Let's talk about another funny little anecdote that we have in common. And that is that I called you once 10 months ago. I don't remember this. I texted you and I said, do you know who my really good friends are? Like really good friends? And you don't remember yet. I can say

Jon Chu (08:22):

I don't remember this. Keep going.

Kevin Goetz (08:23):

Okay. And I said one of my best girlfriends is Stephanie Powers and one of our favorite and best guy friends is RJ Wagner, Robert Wagner. And independently we know each other. Now of course they did the hit show, heart to Heart, <laugh> Hart to Hart's characters were Jonathan and Jennifer Hart. And you told me somewhere back in the last movie that you were named after Jonathan Hart and your sister was Jennifer.

Jon Chu (08:56):

Yep, that is correct.

Kevin Goetz (08:57):

How incredible is that? <laugh>. You were crazy when I told you that you went nuts. You were like giving me all these emojis.

Jon Chu (09:03):

It's so nuts. That's how much my parents were consumed by American media and how they wanted their lives to be what they saw on the screen.

Kevin Goetz (09:11):

Exactly. And that was the opulence of course. And people that were very wealthy and living the life.

Jon Chu (09:18):

Yes, the glamor, the whole thing. Yes.

Kevin Goetz (09:21):

Where did you grow up?

Jon Chu (09:22):

I grew up in Palo Alto, California. Los Altos technically, but it's about a minute away from Palo Alto in the Bay Area in the heart of Silicon Valley in the eighties and nineties, sort of as it was becoming really the Silicon Valley and becoming the center of the world.

Kevin Goetz (09:36):

Your parents owned a Chinese restaurant you said? Did you work in the restaurant or just sort of hang out there?

*Jon Chu (09:41):

Well, first of all, they still have the restaurant 56 years later. My dad still works there. Everybody's there. And did I work there? I mean, did I fold napkins? Yes. Did I serve Chinese chicken salad at the fair? Yes. Did I get paid for it? Absolutely not. <laugh>. 

Kevin Goetz (09:58):

Yes, I understand.

Jon Chu (09:59):

It was my duties, not my work.

Kevin Goetz (10:01):

And your sister's younger or older?

Jon Chu (10:03):

I am the youngest of five, so I have four sisters.

Kevin Goetz (10:05):

Oh, so there's not only Jennifer and Jonathan.

Jon Chu (10:08):

Oh

Kevin Goetz (10:08):

Yes.

Jon Chu (10:09):

Oh yes,

Kevin Goetz (10:09):

There's others.

Jon Chu (10:10):

There are others. There's Howard after Howard Hughes.

Kevin Goetz (10:14):

Oh yes. Another aspiration. Yes. I was gonna say Max, who was their Maner?

Jon Chu (10:19):

<laugh>, yes.

Kevin Goetz (10:20):

And Freeway who the dog was. I'd love you to tell me those, your siblings.

Jon Chu (10:24):

That would've been crazy. That would be crazy.

Kevin Goetz (10:26):

Okay, so musical theater, you always love it.

Jon Chu (10:29):

I always loved it. My mom specifically wanted us to be engulfed in American culture because she wasn't and she didn't get those opportunities. And when she came to America, she didn't speak a lot of English, so she sort of went quiet for a long time. So she never wanted us to feel that. Of course, movies, TV was on all the time. I was watching like Nightmare on Elm Street and Poltergeist at two years old 'cause my brothers and sisters <laugh>, we'd go see the movies.

Kevin Goetz (10:52):

Hold on, child Protective Services, please go to the home of

Jon Chu (10:55):

<laugh>. It made us strong. And then every weekend they'd take us to shows. So we'd go to the city. My mom had season tickets for us and we'd be a whole Chinese family going to San Francisco and watching. It was either musical season, opera season or ballet season.

Kevin Goetz (11:09):

And San Francisco has one of the best of all three.

Jon Chu (11:12):

It was great.

Kevin Goetz (11:13):

What was your first musical?

Jon Chu (11:14):

The first one I remember is probably Nutracker because we went when we were like little, little, little

Kevin Goetz (11:21):

Sound of Music, by the way, is my favorite.

Jon Chu (11:23):

I love sound

Kevin Goetz (11:24):

Music,

Jon Chu (11:24):

I love it.

Kevin Goetz (11:24):

of all time. You know, I talk about the filmmaking of that. People say, why is Sound of Music your favorite movie of all time? And I tend to say it's because to me it's the perfect confluence of every department coming together.

Jon Chu (11:41):

It's true.

Kevin Goetz (11:42):

And starting with the theme and the story before the writer even touched it, then the script, then the director and the casting and the music and the settings. It was just extraordinary.

Jon Chu (11:57):

Yeah, that's why it's timeless is 'cause it always feels timely. And like you said, music is used thematically in it, not just as performance. And of course the music is insane and amazing. It has history and it just means something. It's saying something subversive. And I think that that's when the best musicals, whether it's Cabaret or even Singing in the Rain, West Side story, they're all saying something important. And yet with the the avenue in which it enters us is through story and character. And even a little delight.

Kevin Goetz (12:27):

Were you an actor?

*Jon Chu (12:29):

If you mean did I do theater when I was a kid? Yes. I was in Pacific Overtures when I was a kid. I was nine years old, 10 years old maybe. And I was doing like school theater. I was like our first Asian Oliver at school and things like that. But Pacific Overtures, they were, Mako was in it and they were coming to town and they needed a little boy in the tree and they didn't have a lot of Asian actors that could kind of sing. I'm not a great singer, but I could kind of hold a tune. And so I auditioned and got it and I did all these great shows with the great Mako and the Steven Sondheim music. And then on performance like number 17 in front of like thousands of people, I skipped a verse and the conductor didn't know what to do and he was so angry. And I'm in the tree and I'm looking down at him and I freak out, another actor, an adult actor. I'm the only kid in the whole show. So adult actor comes and starts making up words to build it's actor's nightmare. It's the actor's nightmare. From then on, I never wanted to be on stage ever. I knew deep down like this, I can’t.

Kevin Goetz (13:28):

Okay, but I'm not letting you off the hook. I'm giving you the line and I'd like to hear the reading. Please sir. I want some more. That is the line <laugh> from Oliver. Hold on, I'm gonna wait till I say action. Okay. You don't get to do this. 

Jon Chu (13:41):

Yes, of course.

Kevin Goetz (13:42):

Okay, action.

Jon Chu (13:45):

Lisa. I want some more <laugh>. That's terrible. Where is love? Does it fall from Sky, Isabel? Is it underneath? Is it underneath

Kevin Goetz (13:56):

The willow tree

Jon Chu (13:57):

By the way, my first daughter, my first child is named Willow.

Kevin Goetz (14:01):

Ah, how many do you have like 17 kids or something? Right?

Jon Chu (14:04):

I have five kids now. Three of which were born during Wicked.

Kevin Goetz (14:08):

Wait a minute, hold on. How did three?

Jon Chu (14:10):

When I first got the job of Wicked my wife, we got pregnant <laugh>. So we wanted to name her Ruby after the Ruby slippers. Oh boy, you're all in it. Oh, we're in. And while we were shooting we had a baby. Luckily she had the baby on a Friday so I could be back to work on a Monday. That was in London. And then the third child came the morning of our big premier in la. So we were in the hotel looking over the red carpet. My whole family's there, my suit's on the rack and her water breaks. So we go to the hospital and that baby is born of all times, exactly when the movie is screening, it's the scene when Fiyero runs into Elphaba in the woods. And that's when our little Stevie Sky may or may not be named after Steven Spielberg, Steve Jobs, Stevie Wonder, Stevie Nicks, Steven Schwartz. And Sky was the most beautiful sky that morning. And of course Elphaba in the sky and the bubbles in the sky. So we are deep.

Kevin Goetz (15:02):

Oh man.

Jon Chu (15:03):

My wife might deny all those reasons why, but I'm just telling you as a secret, that's why

Kevin Goetz (15:09):

You are used to now organizing hundreds of people for a shot. And clearly you orchestrated the Friday delivery and <laugh>,

Jon Chu (15:18):

My wife did that, that's for sure.

Kevin Goetz (15:20):

But I'm sure you had something to do with it. <laugh>, let me ask you about the kids. What do they mean to you? What does your family mean to you?

*Jon Chu (15:27):

My family is everything to me. It changed everything. You know, for so long I was like, I don't know if I wanna get married or have kids 'cause I was really focused on, on making movies and it's a very selfish job. My vision, my world, whatever. Like nothing can get in the way. No matter who I was dating or what was going on. It was like nothing. I had worked too hard in many decades of my whole life fighting everything in order to make a movie. And then when you meet the right person, all those rules go out the window. You suddenly find more life, more creativity in love. You find that the things that you believed in may actually be true instead of being so cynical. And when you have kids, even more so because suddenly stories become the center of your life again.

*(16:10):

You're no longer telling stories to strangers, you're telling stories to the people you love most and you watch in their eyes them learning about the world in real time. And that changes you as a person. And if you are in the position of being a filmmaker so much in what kind of stories you want to tell and how I want to position the world for them entering, especially their mixed race. So coming into this world, I really looked at what was out there and how I want them to feel and what was my responsibility to that.

Kevin Goetz (16:40):

Wow. Your wife's superpower is what?

Jon Chu (16:44):

Well, the easy thing I would say is patience. But actually it's creativity because she is extremely creative and she's able to dream with me about how we want our family to be and how we want the world to be. And she understands how hard it is to create something out of nothing. And she does that. Her name is Kristin.

Kevin Goetz (17:05):

Kristin. Well call out to Kristin because to have five children and you away a lot.

Jon Chu (17:11):

Yeah.

Kevin Goetz (17:12):

Has got to be not an easy feat and such young kids at that. You have a tremendous decency. Every time I see you, you put a smile on my face. There's a kindness. And as I said, a decency to your persona. You are so not drunk with power, you are so not spoiled. And I have a feeling you live in gratitude. Would I be correct with that?

Jon Chu (17:38):

100%. I am the product of generosity of so many people. When I was in the restaurant, first of all, I'm the youngest so I get what I want growing up. I don't have the weight of my older brothers and sisters who were the first of the new generation.

Kevin Goetz (17:52):

Always tough those first, right?

Jon Chu (17:54):

A responsibility. The things everybody's hopes and dreams are on them. I came around, no one was really paying attention to me. My baby book has crayon all over it from the other kids that it doesn't have like the hair, the thing, fingerprint, <laugh>, none of that. So in a weird way, I am always a little bit of the oddball that said, the people in the restaurant who were sharing their stories every day I call the restaurant a house of stories because my dad's sharing my mom and dad.

Kevin Goetz (18:16):

Oh, let me just, I gotta unpack that. Hold on. A house of stories.

Jon Chu (18:20):

Yeah,

Kevin Goetz (18:20):

Tell us about that. Yeah,

*Jon Chu (18:21):

This is an intersection of people where they're coming to release, to celebrate, to mourn, to have a date, the beginnings, the endings of things. And they're telling these stories in there to my dad because my dad and my mom are present the whole time. And then my parents are sharing them the story of us and what are the kids doing. And that relationship is why the restaurant has lasted for 56 years. When all sorts of restaurants that are fancier, you know, all this stuff are all around us. Cheaper, more expensive, it doesn't matter. This place was always a home. And I think I developed that as just being there, doing my homework in the bar, drawing storyboards in the margins of my math homework. And this was the Silicon Valley in the eighties. So engineers were revered. So no one was on the cover of magazines yet.

(19:06):

Nobody was rich yet it was about the future. Everyone was thinking about what the world could be and it was a part of the culture itself. And they were starting companies. So the stories of starting companies, ending companies, it was always around. And those people would hear about me making these little movies and they would say, Hey, you know, we're working on these digital video cards. If your son is working on VCRs, let me give you this beta card to put in and let me give you the computer to put it in. Let me give you Adobe. People were giving me software before any other kid could get this stuff. Tens of thousands of dollars. Dollars. And I was getting it, no manuals. And so I had to figure it out at home. And so I feel very blessed to be at that time. You know, in outliers they talk about like being at the right time at the right place.

(19:51):

I was absolutely at this moment, in this time, in this place. And now I had tools and by the time I got to USC film school, even the film school hadn't switched to digital yet. They had some for grad students. But I came in there with more advanced digital tools. And so when I went there, I got to work with 35 millimeter film with 16 millimeter black and white film with eight millimeter, super eight. And I was cutting. And so I got to learn, oh, in a bin that I know so well with the mouse. Oh the bin's an actual bin and we cut frames. Oh that's splicing.

Kevin Goetz (20:24):

We forget that. It's so easy to do now. But you, we didn't know that then. We didn't know. You knew that you had that advantage because people were kind to you. Yeah, because people gave you those

*Jon Chu (20:35):

Assets and with scholarships and awards and things, it was like there was a community beyond that and no one knew me, but they were rooting for me and waiting for me. And I always felt that responsibility and I felt so grateful. Like even when a restaurant gave us pizza for the lunches of our crew, 'cause we begged so many restaurants that in my head I would always say like one day when I can give pizza to a crew, I'm gonna do it. If a student crew wants to shoot in my living room, I'm gonna do it because I know how hard. And I got the calls with people yelling at me like don't call here ever again. 

Kevin Goetz (21:07):

Oh, I Love you Jon Chu.

Jon Chu (21:08):

So in my mind I'm like, one day I'm gonna, I'm gonna make sure if I'm on that stage at the award show one day, I'm gonna say to everybody, if there is a student in your life asking you to borrow something, use something for their creative work. Give it to them.

Kevin Goetz (21:20):

Do it.

Jon Chu (21:21):

Yeah.

Kevin Goetz (21:21):

Hey Jon, before we go to break, I did want to ask you about when you decided to become a filmmaker. Was there a moment or was it something that you've been thinking about for years? 'cause certainly in your teens you were making movies, weren't you?

Jon Chu (21:35):

Yeah, I was. And I think there's different phases when you ask someone like when did you decide to be a filmmaker? I think there's a lack of knowledge of what even a filmmaker is, what a producer is, all the different roles,

Kevin Goetz (21:45):

Especially if you're from Palo Alto.

*Jon Chu (21:46):

I think there's a sense of like, I wanna be in this performance space. And I think that started with some musical theater when I was growing up and watching it, watching Michael Jackson in his music videos. Watching those Disney animated movies, whether it's Beauty and the Beast, Little Mermaid or going to Disneyland itself. To me, this was part of this creative imagination world that I wanted. Watching Hook, watching the behind the scenes hook made me want to, like one day we can build a place with water and a dock and have the lost boys jump in. Like that's an incredible, incredible thing. I think I fell in love with it, with playing with my toys, my GI Joes in the trees or my transformers or whatever. And so I think we all can share in that idea. I think it changed when I learned that I could draw and then I was like, I want to go into animation.

Kevin Goetz (22:30):

Oh you can draw. I didn't know that about you.

Jon Chu (22:32):

Yes, I love to draw. I'm not the best, but it's sufficient for me. But at that time I was like the best draw in my class and that's how I got my first Super eight camera 'cause I wanted to make animated movies. I would have my parents buy me acetate so I could make my little cells. I wouldn't animate 'cause I was, but I knew these cells were like so cool. So I would learn how to paint these things and it was pretty big obsession. And then my parents gave me a camera, 'cause it was their camera, I had to hold it for our vacation. And the moment I looked through that viewfinder one, oh, I don't have to draw anything, I can just observe. It was in the weird way as the youngest of five, the view of the youngest. I could zoom in on the way someone's finger was tapping on the table and I could share that view with somebody and they'd be like, oh that's so interesting.

*(23:17):

And it was like quiet observations of the world. And I didn't have to say much. And then I loved music. I played drum saxophone, violin, guitar, piano. Not good at any of them, but played them. And so incorporating music to it, I remember cutting my vacation together and showing my parents in the living room for the first time, sitting them down. And I played the video and it was two oldies music that my mom had bought some audio tape off of like the TV at late at night. And we had all fun oldies, Motown songs and stuff. And I put it in and they started to cry when they watched it. And I knew I could see it in their eyes. It was like their dreams came true. Like this is Jennifer and Jonathan Hart, this is it. This is all the things that they dreamed of coming to America. Suddenly there's an Elvis song and our family having a great time and we look normal. We look like the Kennedys in their eyes. Which by the way, they also call me Jon Jon. So I saw the power of it very early and I got addicted not to the power of it, but to this idea that I could express myself and say something without saying anything at all.

Kevin Goetz (24:23):

Did you draw your own storyboards?

Jon Chu (24:25):

Mm-hmm <affirmative> I still draw my own storyboards. I mean I draw to a point where then when the rest of the crew has to understand that we have storyboard artists come in and interpret and build on it of course. And they go beyond what I can do. But

Kevin Goetz (24:37):

Yeah, mine would be stick figures if I had to do that.

Jon Chu (24:39):

Yeah, <laugh>. But when I read a script it takes me like four hours to read any script because I'm imagining it in my head. And I think that first of course you are is so important. So it's constantly in my head. The best part actually is because I can see everything in my head really quickly. At least instinctually, of course it gets better as I dig deeper. But I can see things so clearly that it allows me to let people in because I know so strongly what I see that it doesn't threaten my vision until and then, but if their vision is better, then I can like yes and it. And so it gives me a confident core that is truly something that I see. It's not something I'm making up. It's truly something I see.

Kevin Goetz (25:18):

Beautiful. When we come back, we're gonna talk more with Jon about Wicked, about how he got too Wicked and what he's working on now. We'll be back in a moment. Listeners. The Motion Picture Television Fund is a nonprofit charitable organization that supports working and retired members of the entertainment community. This wonderfully run organization offers assistance for living and aging with dignity and purpose in the areas of health and social services, including temporary financial assistance, case management, and residential living. And has been a crucial lifeline to thousands during and beyond critical times that our industry continues to experience. To learn more, visit mptf.com. Please join me in helping others in our industry during times of need. There are so many ways to offer support and get involved. Thank you. We're back with the amazing Jon Chu. Jon, I want to ask you how you came to get your first big picture after USC.

*Jon Chu (26:36):

So it was a wild road. Not something that is probably repeatable as it was a very crazy weird thing. But I sort of won the lottery. I was at USC and I made a couple of short films and the last short film, when the Kids Are Away was a musical. Oh, it was a musical. When the Kids Are Away is a musical, original music. I did some lyrics with Bear McCreary, who's now a big composer, but we were both film students at the time. We had just done a short musical before that called Gwai Lo, which was about an Asian American teenager going through their cultural identity crisis. But I was so scared of that story of that I didn't understand exactly what I wanted to say with it 'cause I hadn't processed it. I wasn't old enough yet, but I knew I had something to do there that I never sent it out to film festivals. I kept it very secret. And then I was like, I'll do my big musical that I've always wanted to do. But some teachers are like, listen, we're here to help you get a new job and you should not be writing musicals. It's a waste of your time. They're dead. But I did it anyway.

Kevin Goetz (27:36):

Anyway. Oh lord, you know I'm an entrepreneur, Jon No is not really in my vocabulary.

Jon Chu (27:41):

I know when someone says no, it motivates me to say, whoa.

Kevin Goetz (27:43):

Exactly.

Jon Chu (27:44):

Just watch. Exactly. Just watch. So, and the Princess Grace Foundation, this foundation that gives money to artists and And they gave me a little bit of a grant to actually get this movie done. And we had a 20 piece vocal choir, 30 piece orchestra, 20 dancers. It was for student film especially at that time.

Kevin Goetz (28:00):

How much was it?

Jon Chu (28:01):

We did it for about $17,000.

Kevin Goetz (28:04):

Who paid for it? All these donations and things.

Jon Chu (28:06):

Donations, yeah. The

Kevin Goetz (28:06):

The Princess Grace Foundation and stuff and

Jon Chu (28:08):

Yes, yes.

Kevin Goetz (28:09):

You just kind of pieced it together.

*Jon Chu (28:10):

Pieced it together and got everything free. There was no money really other than food and cops because I think we had to have police for the permits and whatever, whatever. There was a big street thing. So everything that from all the food was donated, all the actors donated their time and energy. The costumes were from Fox that we borrowed and the props were this place on La Brea that we went into that all this vintage is set in the sixties. It's about how Michael Jackson as a kid, witnesses the life of his mother when he's gone from the day 'cause he, he stays back secretly and they do all these big musical numbers because that's what happens I guess in this musical world. And it's all homages to the old musicals Seven Brides for Seven Brothers or West Side story. And so he gets inspired but he gets caught and then he thinks he's in trouble and then he gives them a new move that they've never seen, like the moonwalk. And so then they start to dance with him and he becomes this whole thing like the passing on of the musical tradition to this kid who's going to change at all in the future.

Kevin Goetz (29:10):

Can we watch this movie?

Jon Chu (29:11):

It's not fully online. No. There's a trailer.

Kevin Goetz (29:14):

Love. Can you send it to me though?

Jon Chu (29:16):

I'll send it to you person.

Kevin Goetz (29:17):

Would you please? I would love to see it, Jon. I mean that very, very sincerely.

Jon Chu (29:21):

Of course. But I did ruin the ending because you don't know that it's the Jacksons until later. But it was fun to do and that got the attention of Steven Spielberg. This is before you could put anything on YouTube.

Kevin Goetz (29:29):

How did it get in front of Steven Spielberg? Come on. Unbelievable.

*Jon Chu (29:33):

There's so many stories. This is how we started. So in my previous short film, Silent Beats, which was all to tab rhythms, I met managers and agents, but they said basically my lawyer at the time, Alison Bender, who's still my lawyer, and she said, listen, finish your school. This is a great piece, but it's not the finishing piece. When you are done with your thesis, come back. I finished my thesis film, which is this musical I showed her and she's like, we can work with this. Let me introduce you to these agents and managers. Rob Carlson was the agent that met me at that time. He's still my agent to this day. He reed big people. The fact that he even wanted to see me, I'm 21 years old, was crazy. And then they said, here's the strategy. Don't give this movie out to anybody because there's no social media, there's no YouTube. He's like, we're going to screen it at every studio and we're gonna invite all the producers that feel like they're in your sort of realm, whether it's musicals or family comedies or romcoms, whatever you wanna do. And we'll invite them. They won't come, but maybe their assistance of their assistants will come.

Kevin Goetz (30:29):

Yes.

Jon Chu (30:30):

And so we started doing that and then once the assistance of the assistants would come, they would tell their bosses, you have to see this movie. Then their bosses would call and say, Hey, how do we get this movie? He said, we're not sending out. You have to come to the next screening. So then we did the next screening and suddenly people started to show up. And so that's when it became this sort of hype that the only way to see this movie was at one of these screenings. And we did about 10 at other studios. By the time we were done, these things were packed. And now he would give me worksheets. He'd say, these are all the producers we're inviting. Here are all their open directing assignments and things they're developing. If there's anything of interest, I will send you that script. I will send you that treatment.

*(31:02):

So if they respond to your movie, if I get a call from Doug Wick and Lucy Fisher and say, Hey, we liked Jon's movie. We are working on something. And then Rob can say, Hey, he actually already is really interested in bye-bye birdie if you want him to hear on that. And they're like, oh great. So then I can go in with a pitch ready to go and show them what I thought the future of the musical could be in Bye-bye birdie. Which is exactly what happened. Now Steven Spielberg was not on that list. I mean, why would we invite Steven Spielberg? He would never come. But it got to him somehow. Someone saw it and snuck it to him. I have several people who claim they're the ones who who gave him the tape and somehow he saw it. And one Friday night I was at my friend's house and I got a call from Rob, my agent, and he said, so we keep getting people saying that Steven Spielberg may have seen the movie and is looking to reach out to you. He's like, we haven't got a call directly, but just want to give you a heads up. Don't think about it all weekend. Just know that that's circling. Oh yeah,

(32:00):

Sure. Don't think about it all weekend. Of course not. <laugh> Saturday comes around, I'm definitely not thinking about it. And six o'clock at night I get a call from Rob. He's like, Hey, I'm so sorry I was out all day, but I've got like so many messages from Steven Spielberg's office. I think he wants to sit with you. Would you be down? I was like, duh, of course. Have him call me. Here's my phone number.

Kevin Goetz (32:19):

He's like asking your permission rather than saying, if you don't go today, within 20 minutes I'm dropping you as a client. That would be more exactly appropriate and appropriate conversation.

Jon Chu (32:29):

So I was ready to do anything at any point and ended up, I didn't have to go to, you know, Steven's house or anything. He's like, come to Dreamworks on Monday and we'll just meet in my office. And so I to drive on to Dreamworks Amblin, which was in the universal lot, which I'd never really,

Kevin Goetz (32:44):

Isn't it fun going through his Jurassic Park gates?

Jon Chu (32:47):

Yeah. His secret little gate on the universal lot. Yeah, it feels like the VIP area of the hottest club in town.

Kevin Goetz (32:52):

It's so cool. I know. Hottest club in town.

Jon Chu (32:55):

And then you go to the bouncer and they're like,

Kevin Goetz (32:56):

And it's rustic and it's all, he's got security all around and it's

Jon Chu (33:00):

I'm in a green VW bug that I won in a raffle if you can believe that. I'm driving up, everyone thinks I'm deliveries. I go up to the security, I say, I'm here to see Mr. Steven Spielberg.

Kevin Goetz (33:13):

right on

Jon Chu (33:15):

Right away. And I get the best parking and right next to the wishing well, which is in front of his office. And you go in and you look in the wishing well and at the bottom of the wishing well is Jaws. So it's a pretty cheeky thing. And at that point, Dreamworks was at the top of their game. They had just won for American Beauty and Saving PErivote Ryan, I think and Gladiator. So you walk into their office and it was like the, that's where Oscars all the Oscars and then they have the front desk and I'm here to see Steven's book and they have catering right in the front in the lobby. And you're just like,

Kevin Goetz (33:46):

I've been there. So I know when I met with Steven most recently I went through the same exact that you go up to this cool conference room and it's all very rustic and southwestern.

Jon Chu (33:56):

It's like you're in Indiana Jones. It is so magical.

Kevin Goetz (33:59):

So what'd he say to you?

*Jon Chu (34:00):

I sat in a room. He came in just him and I for the first probably 20 minutes before I could say anything about how much I loved him. He wanted to know how I did it. He wanted to ask me about certain shots. He wanted to ask me about certain edits, how I gathered the thing where I'm from. He couldn't have been more kind. He couldn't have been more giving. Talked about musicals. We sang Where Is Love, Because he loves Oliver <laugh>. He, yes. And it was a magical time. He brought in then his sort of senior VP of Adam Goodman.

Kevin Goetz (34:33):

Oh my God, Adam was my next door neighbor.

Jon Chu (34:36):

So then that relationship began.

Kevin Goetz (34:38):

So Adam was brought in and were they now trying to get you a job?

Jon Chu (34:41):

Talking to me together about projects that they had and things. And I was like, I love musicals. And I that point, Steven was like, I've always wanted to do musical. I haven't even done a musical. But they started going down their list of things and I was like, you know what? The thing I'm most interested by the way the night before me and my best friend who I went to film school who we're obsessed with Steven Spielberg. Anyway, we took the Steven Spielberg class, we took the George Lucas class. We know everything. We've watched every one of his movies, including his student films.

Kevin Goetz (35:06):

What's his name?

Jon Chu (35:07):

His name is Jason Russell and his wife Danica Russell. Well they're no longer together, but Danica and Jason <laugh>. It's complicated. So we all like dreamed of like, what is the goal of this? He trained me of like, if you meet Steven Spielberg, this is what you gotta do. He's like the end of it, you gotta get a second meeting. It's not about the meeting, it's about the second meeting. I was like, okay.

Kevin Goetz (35:26):

Oh listeners, the second meeting you heard it. It's about the second meeting.

Jon Chu (35:30):

Don't encourage it. I don't wanna do the second meeting. But if you can get the second meeting. So by the end of that I was like, you know I have this musical that I'm on and I would love to share it with you. He's like, yeah, when can you share it? He said, Thursday. I was like, this is like a Monday. I was like, yeah, Thursday I'll be ready for I can show you. So then I go home and my friends are waiting for me. How'd it go? I said, I got my second meeting. They're like, really? They're like, what are you doing in your second meeting? I said, I'm pitching our musical project that we had only barely started to talk about and we're pitching it Monday and you guys were both coming with me. And it was like, holy. So we stayed up for four days to get this thing together.

(36:06):

I mean we had a lot of ideas already, but we had to like get it into a pitch and never pitched anything in my life. So we go into this pitch on Thursday, this is the room that we walk. We go back to Dreamworks and we pull in the same way. Now I get to show my friends, oh there's that. Well go look in the, well guys, there's Bruce <laugh> and like look out for the Oscars on your left. You smell that. That's the catering in the back. They always have lunch here. We'll get something later. And then we go into the conference room and Steven Spielberg comes up to us, Hey guys, great to see you. He introduces us to his team. And the team that's there is Walter, Lori, Adam Goodman and Mike De Luca.

Kevin Goetz (36:44):

Mike De Luca, who's currently running Warner Brothers with Pam Abdi.

Jon Chu (36:48):

Jesus, Mike First pitch ever is in front of those people with Steven Spielberg presenting us. And so then I start to go into this thing. We do not know how to pick.

Kevin Goetz (36:55):

This is so surreal. I can't even, I'm trying to contain myself. Keep going.

*Jon Chu (36:59):

It was insane. And it's locked into my brain because it was so surreal. And by the way, I don't know who Walter, Lori, De Luca and all these people are. I'm just sort of like, I think I read an article where De Luca was in it because of his past work at some point. But I didn't really know anybody. So we go in, we bring a chest of costumes, plop it on the thing, we start walking them through every beat of this story. And every time we create a beat, we have this piece of cardboard with drawing on it or a printout and we're putting it on the table. And this is a huge conference table we're putting on the table, putting things on the wall. And we had songs made by Bear McCreary that were playing on the thing. So we're acting this thing out, we're putting on costumes and da da da.

*(37:35):

It's like Moulin Rouge when they do that whole pitch. It is that. It is so crazy. I don't know how they actually managed to get through this without laughing at us and kicking us out. But in the end, Mike De Luca said, you guys need to teach. And he was probably saying it facetiously now that I'm thinking about it. But at the time I took it genuinely. But he said, you guys need to teach a class about pitching <laugh>. Oh we were so enamored. Yes, thank you so much. And then it took us like 20 minutes to clean up as they left. And then we were taking pictures in the conference room and then we go out to the parking lot back out, we're carrying this huge chest. Everyone's like looking at us like, what are these kids doing? And there's Steven with his wife and they're like, we're about to go to a birthday party, but I just want you to introduce you to my wife guys. She loved the short film 'cause it's about mothers. And she says, made me know that you understand us. And it was just so nice. It was like saying goodbye to our friend

Kevin Goetz (38:26):

Kate Capshaw.

Jon Chu (38:27):

That's the one. So anyway, at the end of the day they did buy it. And so we developed it. They put Dan Jinks and Bruce Cohen, who had just won American Beauty on it. So it suddenly became this high priority for the studio. It was the first time I'm working with a writer, Ben Queen wrote it and I just didn't know how to maneuver it to be honest. And it sort of got lost. 

Kevin Goetz (38:47):

It didn't get made.

Jon Chu (38:47):

It never got made. It took about two years to sort of get lost in its own sauce.

Kevin Goetz (38:51):

And What's its name?

Jon Chu (38:52):

It's called Moxy.

Kevin Goetz (38:54):

Moxy. Yeah. Couldn't it be done now?

Jon Chu (38:56):

It could be. It actually is very relevant now. More than ever. It's sort of a Romeo and Juliet. But anyways, it's a very interesting story. But so who knows,

Kevin Goetz (39:04):

By the way, I think you need to make not only Moxie, but I also think, and your agents will kill me when I suggest this. You need to make the quintessential movie of the Chinese restaurant that you grew up in. Because that touched me very deeply when you talked about the fabric and texture and, and just the quilt of that restaurant. Mm-hmm <affirmative>. And everything that's gone into it in 56 years. It's a deep and very relatable thing.

Jon Chu (39:36):

I wrote a book about that sort of, it is not exactly of that era, but that crosses over called Viewfinder that touches on it. And so I've been playing around with how to make it something, but I'm not sure I'm through with processing it all to be honest. But when that time comes, of course, food, music, movies. Exactly. Like it all fits

Kevin Goetz (39:53):

Really. And stories and weaving it together.

Jon Chu (39:55):

Yeah.

Kevin Goetz (39:55):

Going back to Wicked, which opens today, oh my God, it is gonna be massive. Like I have to tell you, in my tracking study leading up to this four, five weeks, most movies are like unaided awareness. That means like what movies are you aware coming out? We don't tell them the name. That's called Aided Awareness.

Jon Chu (40:16):

Yes.

Kevin Goetz (40:16):

We actually give them the name Unaided Awareness. Every movie. 1, 2, 0 1 next week, 3 1 0 3 weeks out, 0 2 23 Wicked <laugh>. The next week is 2 1 17 Zootopia. You see what I mean? It's very interesting that there's sort of the world of haves and havenots, if you will.

Jon Chu (40:45):

Yeah.

Kevin Goetz (40:45):

But there's such a high anticipation for the movie. How did you arrive at casting both of the ladies in the lead roles?

*Jon Chu (40:55):

So we knew the importance of finding the right Elphaba and Glinda. The thing that we took from the show of 20 years, they said one piece of advice. It's about the girls, stupid. No matter what you're doing, no matter how distracting you can be, don't ever forget if you ever come up against anything. It's about the girls, stupid. So you better cast those girls, right? And everything you you make about this movie should be about the girls.

Kevin Goetz (41:19):

I almost 70 or 80% probably of the success.

Jon Chu (41:22):

Yeah, for sure.

Kevin Goetz (41:23):

Was hinged on that chemistry and that relationship for sure on that decision.

*Jon Chu (41:26):

And fun fact, we never did a chemistry read between the two, but we'll get to that in a second. That's the tease. And first I was like, it's not about stars. If we jam a star into this, we're screwed because we're handicapping ourselves. Wicked is way bigger than a star. So we can discover people, we can find people. So let's open it up to everybody. Let's go find somebody. Let's go find the best. The problem is when you go find the best out there, amateur wise, they are not experienced. And this actually took a high level of skill in terms of you couldn't just have a great voice. You had to know yourself so well that you could switch back and forth from the dialogue into it. You had to do so well that you could hit those big notes and not ruin your voice.

*(42:05):

And what we found is we needed professionals. And we had already been in so many incoming calls anyway, we said, there's no direct offer for this. You have to come in and audition. And so Bernie and Tiffany, our casting directors, we just had an army of people and people would come in and all very, very big actors as well. And they had to be able to sing in front of us. There was no cheating around this. And in the end of the day, we narrowed some things down. The thing with Cynthia was, I didn't call her in early in my way. I was like, I know she can do this, but is she the right one for this role? A does she even wanna do this at all? Because it is a very big character. For someone like Cynthia Erivo to step into, it will become a part of her life.

(42:49):

And I don't know if she wants that she's iconic sort of already. But two, will she find that vulnerable yearning side to her? Is she willing to like let go of this image and actually be small and not quite full yet? When she came in, we had met on Zoom prior and we had actually run into each other at an event for a weekend event. So we'd spend time with each other before she ever auditioned. And I got to know her and she got to trust me a little bit more what I was trying to do. And we often talked about how is this character never been played by a person of color? When you have that perspective and you read these words, they mean very different things.

Kevin Goetz (43:29):

Elphaba is the ultimate person of color

*Jon Chu (43:32):

And she's literally in color. And maybe people can't take it in as easily if you have a person of color because they're scared of that. It brings in too much of society's ideas. But maybe that's what we had to challenge. Maybe it's like too easy to fall for a fairytale character that's green. But in this day and age, at this moment post COVID, we had to challenge the audience just a little bit more. And when she came in and sang those, I was blown away. Not because of her powerful voice, but because of her vulnerability and her willingness to show these wounds of what she's gone through.

Kevin Goetz (44:11):

Amen. Mm-hmm <affirmative>. Absolutely. The way in which she goes so deep, I'm looking at the first scene of course when she comes to that dance.

Jon Chu (44:21):

Mm-hmm <affirmative>.

Kevin Goetz (44:22):

And is exposed the way she is. And every ounce of me being teased as a young boy because I was in musical theater and I danced and all of that and I was different.

Jon Chu (44:33):

Mm-hmm <affirmative>.

Kevin Goetz (44:34):

And they all tried to slap the different out of her.

Jon Chu (44:36):

Mm-hmm <affirmative>.

Kevin Goetz (44:37):

She perseveres and has the breakthrough of course with Glinda.

*Jon Chu (44:42):

Yes. I'll tell you the thing that I think Cynthia brought the most that was surprising that I didn't expect through the process of this, with this idea of dignity to Elphaba. In my mind I was like, okay, I wanna make her a full person. We need to believe in this relationship if it's gonna carry this whole thing through. But she also had another level of, she has self dignity, which means she's not a joke. She's not coming in a black frock with dirt in her hair. She doesn't live in a hole. Which traditionally you're like the concept is the joke of That's right. The wicked witch. She should have frogs in her pockets, but that's not the way she wanted to play it. And it challenged us to be like, yeah, you're right. It's like if we were gonna believe this and we have to believe her. So she wanted jewelry, she wanted proper hair and makeup that she would do as a young person to present herself. If she didn't have self-respect, we wouldn't have respect for her or we wouldn't root for her self-respect to be seen by everybody else. That was really key to this movie actually. And that bled to, of course our costumes, our productions, everything about how Elphaba lived. So that's Elphaba.

Kevin Goetz (45:50):

And in the current movie, yeah. The scene with her and Jonathan, I just wanna say is one of the most exquisite scenes I've seen in recent memory. It is so vulnerable and tender and opens up this character. It reminds me of this culture we're in where everyone just leaps to judgment.

Jon Chu (46:11):

Yep.

Kevin Goetz (46:12):

And there's a real and full person underneath that. And to me that's just mm-hmm <affirmative>. So special. I can't express it. I felt everything you're saying and more.

Jon Chu (46:23):

Yep.

Kevin Goetz (46:23):

The nuance of that performance is breathtaking. Quite frankly.

*Jon Chu (46:27):

What she's doing is unspoken. It is what cinema is all about. It's all underneath it all. And that closeup, she eats it up. And even when Fiyero comes into her nest and in a fantasy that we are creating from the ground that we have to ask ourselves every single question. It's not like we go to a location that that's her nest. That feels like where she would live. Exactly. We actually have to think, does she live in a dirt pile or does she live in the trees? No, she would live in the trees hidden away. Would she live in a grotto? No, she lives elevated. So should be up there and be hidden. And then how well is she taking care of herself? She's made a home for herself. And I think Fiyero’s look when he comes in, Jonathan Bailey, his look when he comes in and looks around and it's not about sexual attraction to her.

Kevin Goetz (47:10):

Correct.

Jon Chu (47:11):

It’s about so much respect. She built a beautiful home for herself no matter what people said, how ugly this wicked witch is. Not ugly as in looks, but ugly as in spirit. She has this beautiful warm home and she's self-sustainable in this. And then he goes over to her and he lifts the cape off of her. And you can feel the weight come off of her shoulders. Like you don't have to put the defenses here. And then as long as your mind becomes not a ballad of like Kiss me too fiercely, which is the first lyric, which makes it a little difficult to do anything with. But instead it became a wishful sort of, could they, would they sort of game as she walks away, kiss me too fiercely. Oh, she wants that, but that she doesn't think he would ever want that. And then she observes him and then he looks at her and says, you're beautiful.

*(47:56):

And she still doesn't believe it. And he says, it's not I, I'm not making it up. And she's like, well what is it then? What is it? And then he starts to think to her. So it is a tenderness that becomes more sensual because of them coming together. They laugh and they play outside on the balcony and then they lift like a Warner Brothers cartoon when they're in love and they lift because that's her language. And then we end up on their knees and then they can kiss. To me that is like working with Cynthia and Johnny. We had to find that together. And it's because they respect these characters and they respect this theme and they had something to say in this. We all had something to say that it's not just a love scene for people to be like, ah ha ha ha. Look at their love. It is. It is something deeper.

Kevin Goetz (48:34):

Absolutely. Your artistry, man. Damn. What about Ariana?

Jon Chu (48:39):

Ariana Grande. Oh my goodness. So you know, she's declared, she wanted this role since she was a kid. And of course the studio would love to have an Ariana Grande in a movie. So I already resist from the very beginning. 'cause they're like, does that feel you cannot have a giant icon?

Kevin Goetz (48:54):

Is it too commercial? Are you commercializing it or something.

Jon Chu (48:56):

This is wicked. Just did in the Heights and, and Crazy Rich Asians. We, we made stars, we discovered people and now she wants to come in here and she's gonna take up a lot of space. It's gonna become Ariana Grande is Wicked. And then she came in and she was none of those things.

Kevin Goetz (49:14):

And she's freaking hysterical.

Jon Chu (49:16):

She's so funny. But her funny doesn't come from the jokes. It comes from a deep understanding of who Glinda is and where to see the world as a human.

Kevin Goetz (49:25):

She must be funny because you cannot do that. You understand what I'm saying about thinking funny? There are some actors who don't and they could never bring what she brought to that role.

*Jon Chu (49:36):

Totally. In real life, Ari is like sort of that Buster Keaton thing. Like she's a sane person in an insane world, which even though she's a little bit insane too, like she, the way she cuts, she's a both a product of this insane world, but her real life is the sane person. So she cuts so deep and so fast and she knows so much that it really is hilarious. She says things that you would never say and you've wanted to say, you don't know how to and she does it. And so every time she came in, she's up against the biggest movie stars in the world. She was the most interesting person in the room.She was not doing Kristin Chenowith, but she was Glinda. And we asked her to come in four times, I think, because I didn't believe that maybe she got lucky on one time. I wanna see if she's willing to do it again. I wanna see her with less of the Ariana Grande.

Kevin Goetz (50:25):

I can't believe you did that, because I can't even have an electrician come up at my house like three different electricians,

Jon Chu (50:31):

<laugh>.

Kevin Goetz (50:31):

'cause I don't wanna say no to two of them. You know what I mean?

Jon Chu (50:34):

Yes. Yes.

Kevin Goetz (50:34):

So you had her come in four times.

Jon Chu (50:36):

In a way I needed to be sure about it. She was working it out as well. And every time she was better and better. And so there was also a curiosity, like how good can she get? And it was so clear by the end. And by the way, I did not pair the two together. They did not do a chemistry read together because I never thought that they would pair up.

Kevin Goetz (50:55):

Come on Jon.

Jon Chu (50:56):

What do you mean? We're pairing them with different caliber of singer actor status and there's a combination of who fits who. And we had a chemistry read day 'cause we knew we could probably only bring them back one last time. And so I paired each of them with two different people and I had other actors as well, paired with different people so that I could just get a sense of like, what are our age range? Who vibes, well who's humor matches this person? I just didn't match them up. None of us did. Otherwise I would've put them together. And then when you see it, it's very clear. Cynthia Erivo is our Elphaba. And when you see it, it is very clear. There's no one else but Ariana Grande.

Kevin Goetz (51:36):

But the chemistry between them is staggeringly good.

Jon Chu (51:38):

We got really lucky we rolled the dice.

Kevin Goetz (51:41):

Thank you for sharing that, by the way.

*Jon Chu (51:43):

I mean, the reality is I know enough that I feel like I think it can work, but at the same time, the camera loves energy, good energy or bad energy. And they were either gonna create sparks because they love each other or create sparks because they hate each other. Either way, it was sparks and I could work with it. Would it be torture for me if they hate each other? Absolutely. But I can handle that. We, I'm built for that. But does it make good art? Sure. But the fact that it was love, oh my God, it only, you know 10X the whole thing.

Kevin Goetz (52:14):

So Jon, what's up next for you? Because I could keep you forever. I know you have a hard out to continue enjoying your day that you're about to rejoice and I'm giving you that crystal ball and saying it's gonna be quite a good day for you. Tell me what's on the horizon. I heard, oh, the places we go and I've also heard Hot Wheels.

Jon Chu (52:33):

<laugh>. Yes. So I haven't had a lot of development in many years 'cause of Wicked. So I'm developing a lot right now. Oh, the Place You'll Go is my first animated movie with JJ as well as producing that with Warner Brothers Animation. It's Dr. Seuss.

Kevin Goetz (52:46):

Going back to your roots, baby.

Jon Chu (52:46):

Going back. And it's his last book that he ever wrote. So it's different than all the other Dr. Seuss books and it's beautiful. It's a musical. Pasek and Paul who wrote Greatest Showmen are writing the music. It is so stunning. Josh Gad and Ariana Grande. And we have more cast coming soon that we'll announce. It's a really beautiful, magical movie. I can't wait.

Kevin Goetz (53:08):

I went to Warner Brothers to meet with Damaschke.

Jon Chu (53:11):

Yes.

Kevin Goetz (53:11):

And he brought me into the room.

Jon Chu (53:14):

Oh, did you see some stuff?

Kevin Goetz (53:16):

Unbelievable.

Jon Chu (53:17):

And talk about it. But it's pretty gorgeous.

Kevin Goetz (53:20):

It's stunning

Jon Chu (53:21):

Where we're gonna take the audience. And that one is so great. And I'm working with Jill Colton, my co-director on it. She's helping me and guiding me and we're doing this together. It's really beautiful. It doesn't come out to 2028. That's on the animation side. I have a couple other animated things that I want to dive into, but I'm also developing stuff like Joseph and the Amazing Technicolor Dream Coat with Andrew Lloyd Weber and Sir Tim Rice.

Kevin Goetz (53:41):

Gail Berman produced Joseph and the amazing technical dream coat when she was 22 years old.

Jon Chu (53:47):

Wow.

Kevin Goetz (53:48):

On Broadway. It was brought to Washington to the Ford Theater and then ultimately brought off Broadway and then to Broadway. She told me that they hired Laurie Beechman as the female narrator, but the narrator originally was a man. You should talk to Gail about the journey of that.

Jon Chu (54:05):

I'll talk to her for sure.

Kevin Goetz (54:07):

That's fabulous. It's a great show. Way, way back many centuries ago.

Jon Chu (54:12):

I wanna do an absurd musical. Something we can just go balls out.

Kevin Goetz (54:16):

Yeah.

Jon Chu (54:16):

A biblical sort of Roots to it.

Kevin Goetz (54:17):

It's genius. I cannot wait for you to do that. Your imagination with that is gonna be extraordinary. Hot Wheels are you excited about with Mattel?

*Jon Chu (54:24):

I'm totally excited about that with my kids. They're obsessed with Hot Wheels as well. JJ had this amazing concept for it, and so that's what drew me in and I was like, wow, I'd never thought of it like that. So we're working on that. We're waiting for a script right now. So everything's in sort of development phases, the Britney Biopic, things like that. Based off of her book, we're working away and we'll see what draws my curiosity. I'm ready to work though. I'm ready to go. Shoot. I'm energized. I do not feel exhausted by the Wicked experience. I feel more free and more creative than ever.

Kevin Goetz (54:52):

Jon Chu. Your artistry, your vision, your sheer talent is an inspiration. I'm so glad to have done even a little part on the movies that you've created.

*Jon Chu (55:06):

Thank you. And can I say one more thing about you, Kevin? You really are a defender of the theater of the cinemas and I love that about you, that you love it, that you help us. Most people think about movies and they're like, don't you just want your work out to be seen by the most people? But there's the magic of movie theaters, of the question of whether the audience shows up. And there's a big spotlight on our movie this weekend, but it is the nature of the art itself. Can you draw people into a movie theater? Because that experience is not like watching it at home in a movie theater. You have to put your phone down, you have to sit in the dark with strangers and you have to live through someone else's eyes for two hours. I don't even spend that much time with the people I love most to sit and listen to them for two hours.

(55:48):

And yet movies have that space and this is the most important space that we need to protect because while politicians get all the airways to say whatever they want to blame whoever they want. It is the movie theater where people can actually listen. And that space is so sacred. It's where culture can change. I've watched it, I've witnessed it. It's where people can challenge people and it we can really be one of the last places where there is no algorithm on the inside of it. And so I love that you defend this and that you champion it and you help us filmmakers find the best ways to reach the biggest audiences. So I appreciate you for that.

Kevin Goetz (56:21):

Thank you so very much. You really do respect the audience and that is another reason why I am so crazy about you. Thanks again.

Jon Chu (56:30):

Thank you.

Kevin Goetz (56:33):

To our listeners, I hope you enjoy this conversation. For more insights into filmmaking, audience testing, and the business of Hollywood, I invite you to check out my books Audienceology and How to Score in Hollywood at Amazon, or through my website at kevingoetz360.com. You can also follow me on my social media. Next time on Don't Kill the Messenger, I'll welcome novelist and screenwriter Matthew Spectktor and his father, the legendary agent, Fred Specktor. Until then, I'm Kevin Goetz and to you, our listeners, I appreciate you being part of the moviemaking process. Your opinions matter.

Host: Kevin Goetz
Guest: Jon M. Chu
Producer: Kari Campano
Writers: Kevin Goetz, Darlene Hayman, and Kari Campano
Audio Engineer: Gary Forbes (DG Entertainment)