Podcast: Don't Kill the Messenger with Movie Research Expert Kevin Goetz
Guests: Matthew and Fred Specktor

Interview Transcript:

Announcer (00:03):

From script to screen, every film is brought to life by visionary creatives and executives, all sharing one mission to captivate the audience. Hosted by award-winning movie strategist Kevin Goetz, our podcast, Don't Kill the Messenger, offers a filmmaking masterclass through intimate conversations with Hollywood's most influential voices. And now, your host, Kevin Goetz.

Kevin Goetz (00:29):

Some people write about Hollywood from the outside. My guests today lived it from the inside. Matthew Specktorbegan his career as a studio executive at Tribeca, Jersey Films, MGM, and Fox 2000, before turning that experience into acclaimed books like Always Crashing in the Same Car, an American Dream Machine. His writing reveals the art, ambition, and contradictions of Los Angeles. The very intersection of creativity and commerce that we explore on this show. And we're also honored to be joined by his father, Fred Specktor, one of Hollywood's most respected agents and a legendary figure at CAA, who's guided generations of top filmmakers and actors. Matthew and Fred, welcome to my show.

Matthew Specktor (01:21):

Thank you very much. Hi. Thanks very much. Thanks for having us.

Kevin Goetz (01:24):

I'm so glad you're here. We've tried to do this for quite a while and finally it came to fruition. Matthew, this new book is incredible. It's called The Golden Hour: A Story of Family and Power in Hollywood. You really capture the underbelly man of this city of a time that I grew up, you and I are of a similar age.

Matthew Specktor (01:47):

Yeah.

Kevin Goetz (01:47):

It felt so relatable and visceral. You're an incredible writer.

Matthew Specktor (01:52):

Thank you. And visceral was sort of the key, I guess, for me, you know, just that I wanted to sort of get the certain textures and certain kind of particulars of this complicated place and complicated industry. I was looking for that.

Kevin Goetz (02:07):

How did you find your voice as a writer? Because you seem like you're born to write. There's such a natural flow to your writing. It's not linear. It's almost dreamlike. Very haunting.

Matthew Specktor (02:22):

That also pleases me a lot. I knew at a very young age that I wanted to be a writer. I was a reader from a very early age and a lot of that came from my mom. She was kind of a voracious reader? She was a voracious reader and I think she was a writer, but for a long time, a frustrated writer.

Kevin Goetz (02:36):

What did she write?

Matthew Specktor (02:38):

She wrote short stories. I think she really, in her heart, kind of wanted to write a novel, and then she wrote screenplays.

Kevin Goetz (02:43):

What was her name?

Matthew Specktor (02:44):

Her name was Catherine. And she was someone who had a kind of ambivalent relationship to the movie business that rubbed off on me a little bit too. I didn't have a burning desire to enter the industry when I was a kid, but I knew I wanted to write. And because I was just such a voracious reader, I mean, I think like any writer, you arrive at a voice by reading a ton <laugh> and then somehow, I don't know if the word would be synthesizing or distilling or-

Kevin Goetz (03:08):

Crystallizing.

Matthew Specktor (03:09):

... discarding, crystallizing. Yeah. It sort of teaches you something and the question of how it ends up sounding the way it does. Who knows?

Kevin Goetz (03:16):

Who were influences, early influences for you as writers?

Matthew Specktor (03:19):

As writers, yeah. I think Scott Fitzgerald was a very early and important influence.

Kevin Goetz (03:23):

What is the story about his apartment?

Matthew Specktor (03:25):

When I moved back to California and my previous marriage exploded, I moved into a little apartment a few doors down from the Director's Guild on Hayworth. And the land lady, she was this very odd duck. You know, she was like, "Billy Crystal used to live here and- Wow. ... and Carrie Grant used to live here." And, you know, so it was this building that had this kind of old Hollywood history. And then it just happened that across the way was the apartment building where Scott Fitzgerald died. It was not ... His apartment building was actually down the block, but his mistress, Sheila Graham, lived in the building that was directly

Kevin Goetz (04:00):

What year- What year-ish? 

Matthew Specktor (04:01):

1940 ... God, I wanna say 1940. I think he died in 1940. Wow. Might have been

Kevin Goetz (04:08):

44. Were you in like the same apartment?

Matthew Specktor (04:10):

No, I mean, just ... I was opposite. Directly across the street was the building where he died. So I could look out my window and I could see. And I knew which one it was. So it was interesting.

Kevin Goetz (04:18):

So F. Scott Fitzgerald. And who else?

Matthew Specktor (04:20):

Yeah. He was big for me.

Kevin Goetz (04:22):

I think another one, if I can glean from reading the book- Yeah. ... is Joan Didion.

Matthew Specktor (04:27):

Oh yeah, sure. When I was in high school, Didion was sort of presented to me as the Los Angeles writer, and I was very resistant to her. And I think in a lot of ways, there's stuff in the various books that feels kind of pointedly anti-Didion, which I don't wanna say that too loud because Griffin is a friend and-

Kevin Goetz (04:47):

By the way- Yeah. ... Griffin loved your book. I read a review- Yeah. ... of his, about your book. His book is wonderful. Are you guys buddies?

Matthew Specktor (04:55):

We're friends, yeah. I think he's such a wonderful writer, wonderful person, wonderful actor, wonderful filmmaker.

Kevin Goetz (05:00):

Just- Oh. And again, a singular voice like yours.

Fred Specktor (05:03):

Yeah.

Kevin Goetz (05:04):

Fred, I've gotta ask you, you proud?

Fred Specktor (05:06):

Yes. <laugh>

Kevin Goetz (05:08):

I mean- Yes. ... what was he like as a kid?

Fred Specktor (05:10):

Well, he liked sports, you know? But I wasn't good at sports. No, I wouldn't have said that, but- <laugh> ... But, uh, I didn't wanna insult you.

Kevin Goetz (05:18):

Did you go to any of the games?

Fred Specktor (05:19):

I went to all of them and apologized for it later on saying that I, that my business took me away from it, but Matthew told me I was crazy. I came to all the games.

Kevin Goetz (05:30):

Can I tell you something that's so interesting? Yeah. If the opposite is usually true where the father says I went to all the games and the kid says, "No, you weren't." Yeah. And let me tell you something, the kid's always right because the kid remembers. So the fact that you tell your dad that he was there-

Matthew Specktor (05:44):

He was there.

Kevin Goetz (05:44):

... is like, whew.

Matthew Specktor (05:45):

Yeah.

Kevin Goetz (05:46):

Because it's a lot for people who have children who weren't able to because of their careers or whatever-

Matthew Specktor (05:52):

Yeah.

Kevin Goetz (05:52):

... not participated in that, and then they regret it later. Yeah. So that's great. But you guys didn't have the rosiest of relationships growing up. You know, my father and I had a deep love for each other, but it took a while for him to sort of understand me. Did you have a similar kind of relationship?

Matthew Specktor (06:09):

I think my relationship with him has been pretty strong since my early 20s. I think that the teenage years were a little choppy-

Kevin Goetz (06:17):

Because of the divorce? Yes.

Matthew Specktor (06:19):

To some degree, yeah. But I also just think, like, we weren't spending a lot of time together in those years. We spent a lot of time together when you were very, very, very present when I was a kid, and you were certainly present when I was a teenager, but I was mostly living with my mom.

Kevin Goetz (06:30):

Was he affectionate?

Matthew Specktor (06:32):

Yeah.

Fred Specktor (06:33):

I love Matthew and I think he's a great writer.

Matthew Specktor (06:35):

Yeah.

Kevin Goetz (06:36):

He's, he's ... Yeah. But more than that, Fred, I think why I bring it up is because when you read the writing and what's going on underneath it, you start to see ... He's really a deep guy. He's not just a superficial writer. He's going to darker places. Are you surprised when you read some of his stuff and-

Fred Specktor (06:54):

Yes. Yes.

Kevin Goetz (06:54):

Tell me what most surprises you or has surprised you in this book?

Fred Specktor (06:58):

Well, this book didn't surprise me because I was there <laugh> and I was there through most of it.

Kevin Goetz (07:03):

There's a little artistic license.

Fred Specktor (07:05):

There's some.

Kevin Goetz (07:06):

Well, yeah, of course.

Fred Specktor (07:06):

Yes. Yeah. But I know the artistic license and I know what's real and every time I read it and I've read a lot of it and I've read it many times and I could read it again tonight, you know?

Kevin Goetz (07:19):

When you talk about Mike Ovitz, for example, and you say, "I've taken artistic license." Sure.

Fred Specktor (07:24):

Yeah.

Kevin Goetz (07:24):

Was that a little bone of contention because- No, I- ... Because Fred and Mike were so close?

Matthew Specktor (07:29):

I think, you know, it's funny, there's certainly plenty of license in the book, and given that I'm a novelist and I wanted it to read like a novel-

Kevin Goetz (07:37):

Well, that's what's so genius about it too. Y'all have to read this book because it is that very fine line- Right. ... between fiction and nonfiction. Yeah. And that's really hard to do.

Matthew Specktor (07:47):

It was really hard to do. And it's sent me back to feeling like I will never write this type of nonfiction again <laugh>.

Kevin Goetz (07:54):

You know what? Yeah. My book came out this week.

Matthew Specktor (07:56):

Yeah.

Kevin Goetz (07:57):

It's like giving birth. I imagine. I'm sorry. I apologize. Apologies to everyone. Apologies to every woman everywhere.

Matthew Specktor (08:02):

Yeah.

Kevin Goetz (08:03):

Yeah. But I say that only in hearing what my women friends say once they give birth, they say never again, and then they're pregnant two years later-

Fred Specktor (08:11):

That's

Kevin Goetz (08:12):

Right. Yeah. ... or something. They're going through it again. And I feel like that happened with my first book. I said, "I don't think I could do this again, but I had a two book deal."

Fred Specktor (08:18):

Yeah.

Kevin Goetz (08:19):

I said, "I've got to write one." And I did and it took it out of me. I'm ready to just crash right now.

Matthew Specktor (08:24):

It, it definitely is a grind, but-

Kevin Goetz (08:26):

But I might do it again. Who knows?

Matthew Specktor (08:27):

But in this case, the very specific thing of feeling like, you know, I needed to be faithful to the historical record, I needed the things that I was describing to have happened, and I also needed to find the waves that I could somehow kind of inhabit these scenes and make them.

Fred Specktor (08:44):

I called Matthew and said, "Is it, did this really happen?" <laugh>

Kevin Goetz (08:47):

You know, he knew better than you did in terms of remembering, and did what he asked happen?

Matthew Specktor (08:54):

Yes. There's a scene in the book with you and Bob DeNiro and Mike Ovitz. It's afterwards you said, "You know, it was exactly like that, but that meeting didn't happen at Matuhisa." That's right. It, it happened in the office. And I thought, well, that's-

Kevin Goetz (09:07):

Clear as a bell.

Matthew Specktor (09:07):

Yeah, I thought well

Kevin Goetz (09:08):

That's- Clear as of that.

Matthew Specktor (09:10):

Yeah. I thought that's okay, you know- But that's okay. ... if, if I, if I change the room, and with people like Ovitz, you know, where I was kind of allowing myself to imagine subjectivity for them, right? There are scenes with Ovitz in which I'm in Ovitz's head, I haven't seen Mike Ovitz since I was a teenager or in my early 20s.

Kevin Goetz (09:28):

But it almost doesn't matter- No. ... because it's your perception of hearing the story and then giving it back to us. Like that's in, from your perspective, that's kind of what gives you the ability to do that.

Matthew Specktor (09:38):

And a lot of it is a certain amount of psychology. I think I read, for every person that gets represented in the book, whether it's Ovitz or James Baldwin or whatever, it's like I read everything- Did

Kevin Goetz (09:47):

You really have a college course with James Baldwin?

Matthew Specktor (09:49):

I did. Of course I did.

Kevin Goetz (09:50):

I found that super intriguing. What did he teach you? I know he- The answer is it has something to do with is being something enough. It was a- What is that something?

Matthew Specktor (10:00):

You mean what he said to me in the class?

Kevin Goetz (10:01):

Me in the class? Yes, he said to you.

Matthew Specktor (10:02):

For it to have happened or for it to be beautiful is not enough.

Kevin Goetz (10:04):

Beautiful is enough.

Matthew Specktor (10:05):

Yeah.

Kevin Goetz (10:05):

It may not be enough.

*Matthew Specktor (10:06):

Yeah, may not be enough. What do you mean by that? Well, it's funny because I was in many respects, and I think this would be true of any 19 year old. I was too young for the experience. I mean, he was teaching way over our heads. Where was that? He was teaching at Mount Holyoke College and I was a student at Hampshire and we were chosen by lottery because there were so many people who wanted to take his class. They took three from each of the five colleges, right? So three from- Wow. Holyoke, three from Smith. So I get tossed into this room and I obviously, I knew who he was. I had read Giovanni's Room, but I didn't really know. At 19, I was just some white kid from LA. I didn't really have the same understanding of the civil rights struggle, you know, all of those things- Yeah.

(10:49):

... that ... And, you know, and then I walk into a room and he's kind of like, he's not teaching short stories by contemporary people, he's making us read Henry James. And I was just like, "What are you talking about, man?" But he was so lovely and so generous and he was an enormously kind and gentle man and very firm and certainly could be in the classroom too. But for me, it was a lesson in, oh, writing isn't this kind of glamorous thing because I'd grown up here and it's like in 1983, writers didn't have to go to offices. I had known screenwriters growing up, so it was like they can do lots and lots of drugs and still get their work done. They have nice cars, you know, all these things that turn out to be not remotely true for actual writers. And I think he, even at that age for me was sort of someone who illustrated like, oh, this is a serious job and it has a kind of moral or ethical dimension to do it right- It's incredible-

Kevin Goetz (11:41):

Yeah. ... to have that kind of tutor or mentor just even for a semester. 

Matthew Specktor (11:46):

Yeah, it was in, it was- Just to be in that orbit, you know? It, it was, it was incredible.

Kevin Goetz (11:48):

Yeah. What was it like growing up as Fred Specktor's son? <laugh> That had to have a little bit of an effect on you.

Matthew Specktor (11:56):

Well, it had a positive effect because he was a good father.

Kevin Goetz (11:59):

Didn't a young David Lynch come up to you? Yes,

Matthew Specktor (12:02):

Yes. Yes.

Kevin Goetz (12:02):

And say to you something like-

Matthew Specktor (12:04):

Are you, are you gonna be an agent like your father? And I said, "I don't know. "

Kevin Goetz (12:07):

I'm surprised you didn't say, no, I'm gonna be a writer.

Matthew Specktor (12:09):

Well, I was maybe 12 or 13. I went to work in the mail room at CAA one summer, in the summer of 1981, I think it was, and I remember thinking for a moment like this could be fun because it was fun. And then realized-

Kevin Goetz (12:23):

Made some friends, right?

Matthew Specktor (12:24):

Yeah, I made some friends and then I realized like, "Oh, this isn't really who I am." But the encounter with Lynch, which was, uh- 

Kevin Goetz (12:30):

Before he was David Lynch?

Matthew Specktor (12:31):

Yeah. I mean, he had d- directed Eraserhead, but I hadn't yet seen Eraserhead. It would be a couple years before I did that. But you knew who he was and you told me.

Kevin Goetz (12:39):

So Fred, Fred, Fred, Fred, what can I say, man? You have had one of the most respected careers. I hate to lean on the fact that people say you're the oldest living agent in the business. <laugh>

Fred Specktor (12:53):

It's true.

Kevin Goetz (12:54):

But you know, I revere age, I hire age, I want to be inspired and taught by people who've lived life and have experience. Do you find your energy level at this stage? You seem as though you were when I met you years and years ago. I don't see any change.

Fred Specktor (13:14):

Well, I love my job. I really do. I love my clients more than I should, but I love them. They're loyal, they're good, and when they come with me, I know everything about them.

Kevin Goetz (13:26):

You were always stern and very decisive in your ask, but very kind and fair. I always found you on the other side of the table, because we had a very good friend in common, the late, great Dan Petrie Senior- Correct.

Fred Specktor (13:41):

Oh, yeah.

Kevin Goetz (13:41):

Who became like a grandpa, really, to me.

Fred Specktor (13:43):

Yes.

Kevin Goetz (13:44):

And I'm very close. In fact, Donald just had dinner at my home with Peggy, and I'd love that family tremendously. What was it like working with Dan? I'd love to, just as a little homage here-

Fred Specktor (13:55):

Well, he was really easy.

Kevin Goetz (13:57):

Canadian.

Fred Specktor (13:58):

And he was a very well-respected director in the television business, not necessarily in the movie business. And today, there's no difference between ... He had been better off maybe today.

Kevin Goetz (14:09):

Because the separation is so less.

Fred Specktor (14:13):

There is no separation today.

Kevin Goetz (14:14):

There's no separation.

Fred Specktor (14:15):

No, they do these five to eight episodes-

Kevin Goetz (14:18):

Limited series. Yeah.

Fred Specktor (14:19):

It's

Kevin Goetz (14:19):

Like an epic movie.

Fred Specktor (14:20):

It's like a movie. And it's hard to find the movies today. You have to either see a preview of one or look at a one sheet of one because you don't know where they are.

Kevin Goetz (14:31):

You know, I read something that you said about the business shrinking, and yet the business has expanded in so many ways. As an agent, how is it shrinking?

Fred Specktor (14:42):

Well, look at how many studios there were and how many studios there are, and they make less films.

Kevin Goetz (14:50):

But you have the streamers making up for it.

Fred Specktor (14:52):

Yes, that's true. Yesterday, the funniest thing happened to me.

Kevin Goetz (14:56):

Tell us.

Fred Specktor (14:56):

I had a guy call me about a script that a client of mine had written eight or 10 years ago and said, "We wanna do this draft and there are people involved that really wanna do it. " In fact, there are very important stars that wanna do it and we'd like to have him do a, probably a rewrite of it. And if I told you who the people were, you'd say, "It's amazing. That draft, I remember people saying, God, he didn't listen to you at all, you know? In other words, he didn't write what he should've written and-

Kevin Goetz (15:31):

Suddenly it was genius.

Fred Specktor (15:32):

Yeah. And we were moved on, you know, the time. And I was just so surprised that people would dig up an old script and suddenly find life there. <laugh>

Kevin Goetz (15:43):

Well, it happens where it just was ahead of its time or ... Look, I always say that it just takes one person- Right. ... to say yes to anything. I got rejections from so many publishers before I finally got Simon and Schuster to say yes.

Fred Specktor (15:59):

Right.

Kevin Goetz (16:00):

And now it just seems like, oh, that was easy. Of course it was not easy at all.

Fred Specktor (16:03):

Well, many pictures get, take a long time to get made, sometimes seven or eight years or more. And I saw a movie the other night, which I was very impressed with, Nuremberg. And if you haven't seen it, I urge you to see it.

Kevin Goetz (16:18):

It's a terrific performance by Russell Crowe.

Fred Specktor (16:20):

Oh, no question about he'll be nominated easily because it shows some footage that I saw when I was in the Army and they said, nobody has seen this footage because the US Army didn't release it. And I was a teacher there and I happened to ask whether can I see this footage? And it's horrendous.

Kevin Goetz (16:39):

I mean. It's horrendous. Yeah. We've seen those images. They show them in this movie in order to show the gravitas of what happened.

Fred Specktor (16:46):

It's a very meaningful movie and brilliantly acted and brilliantly shot and-

Kevin Goetz (16:53):

Russell makes you almost like a Nazi.

Fred Specktor (16:55):

Well, that's his whole trick. You know? I mean his trick, Goring's trick.

Kevin Goetz (16:59):

Absolutely. And- Absolutely the charm of that man. Yeah. And to seduce, right? Hey, Fred, where did you grow up? Where did it start?

Fred Specktor (17:07):

I grew up in Beverly Hills.

Kevin Goetz (17:08):

No shit. Beverly Hills. Did you go to Beverly Hills High?

Fred Specktor (17:11):

Uh-huh. I grew up on the poor side of Beverly Hills.

Kevin Goetz (17:14):

Where's the poor side of Beverly Hills?

Fred Specktor (17:16):

Well, this was during the war. <laugh> And it was, the poor side was south of Willshire Boulevard.

Kevin Goetz (17:22):

Right. Which now is you cannot afford as well because it's, they've become,

Fred Specktor (17:27):

Uh- My dad paid $21,500 for our house, which was a block north of Olympic.

Kevin Goetz (17:34):

You didn't have aspirations to be in the film business.

*Fred Specktor (17:36):

No. In fact, I went next door to my friend's father's house and I wanted to be a cameraman on films. You'd have a job all the time. First thing he said to me was, "You can't get in unless you're part of the family."

Kevin Goetz (17:48):

Ah.

Fred Specktor (17:49):

So it's not a good way to do business, but ...

Kevin Goetz (17:52):

You went into the army.

Fred Specktor (17:54):

Yep.

Kevin Goetz (17:55):

Where did you serve?

Fred Specktor (17:56):

Fort Ord.

Kevin Goetz (17:57):

Did you go overseas? My dad was a Marine in the Korean War.

Fred Specktor (18:00):

Well, this was after the Korean War. Mm-hmm. I'd missed all the wars. Think how lucky I am.

Kevin Goetz (18:05):

I understand. Yeah. I'm just doing the math right now. How did you get into what you got into? How did that happen?

Fred Specktor (18:11):

An accident. Well-

Kevin Goetz (18:12):

There's no accidents.

Fred Specktor (18:14):

It was an accident. <laugh> Trust me, because I didn't know what it was. Mailboy, I didn't even know what that was.

Kevin Goetz (18:21):

So you went into a mail room?

Fred Specktor (18:22):

Yeah, at MCA.

Kevin Goetz (18:24):

And whose desk did you first work on?

*Fred Specktor (18:26):

Well, I didn't work on a desk, but I was Lew Wasserman's assistant.

Kevin Goetz (18:29):

Oh, damn. Hold on. <laugh> Lew Wasserman's assistant, the godfather of Hollywood.

Fred Specktor (18:35):

He was the most powerful man in the industry.

Kevin Goetz (18:37):

We don't have a Lew Wasserman anymore.

Fred Specktor (18:38):

No, we do not.

Kevin Goetz (18:39):

Do you think we need one?

Fred Specktor (18:41):

Yes.

Kevin Goetz (18:42):

Often we do, don't we?

Fred Specktor (18:43):

Yeah.

Kevin Goetz (18:44):

To solve that sag aftra strike, to solve the writer's guild strike.

Fred Specktor (18:47):

He's the kind of guy that would say, "I'm gonna give $10,000 to the Jewish welfare," and he would say, "That's not enough."

Kevin Goetz (18:55):

Let me tell you what else he did. I'm telling our listeners, you know this, the motion picture and television fund, LewWasserman was responsible for having every employee from every studio donate a portion of their paycheck.

Fred Specktor (19:10):

1%.

Kevin Goetz (19:11):

1%.

Fred Specktor (19:12):

Right.

Kevin Goetz (19:13):

To the motion picture and television fund, which was the right thing to do. And it can't happen today for whatever reason. And I'm trying. Sherry Lansing and I were trying to. Jim G and I were trying to. Jim actually, when he was at Paramount, had the fund set up stations with recruiters from the MPTF, and it just was a bust. So that wouldn't happen with Lew Wasserman. He would make it happen.

Fred Specktor (19:35):

Yeah.

Kevin Goetz (19:36):

Because it was the right thing to do, taking care of our own. So you must have learned a ton from him.

Fred Specktor (19:42):

I learned a lot.

Kevin Goetz (19:43):

You miss him?

*Fred Specktor (19:44):

Yeah, of course. I liked him very much. I mean, it scared me to death, to tell you the truth when I was working for him. <laugh> I'll tell you a funny story. We were listening to baseball games because he liked to listen to. I was driving a car and Ted Williams had a home run. This was in the later years of his life. And I said, "Oh, that's great for an old man." And he said to me, "Whoops, what did you say? Did you know my age?" And he was 41 years old. Oh, no. Well, I was 19, you know? When, when you-

Kevin Goetz (20:13):

I gotta just process that. Yeah. 41.

Fred Specktor (20:16):

But you're 19 or 20 or 21. What do you know? And I realized, and I started to say, "Well, I, I didn't mean you. " <laugh> And he said, "It's okay. It's a business. This is a young man's business and it's about you at your age."

Kevin Goetz (20:31):

Yeah.

Fred Specktor (20:31):

And I'm driving his car. What am I his chauffeur? <laugh> And so-

Matthew Specktor (20:36):

And he was less than half the age that you are now, so-

Fred Specktor (20:38):

Yeah, that's correct.

Kevin Goetz (20:39):

Yeah. I was just gonna say- Yeah. ... when we come back, we are gonna talk to both Matthew and Fred about the book, The Golden Hour, and more inside Hollywood Stories. We'll be back in a moment. Listeners, the Motion Picture and Television Fund is a nonprofit charitable organization that supports working and retired members of the entertainment community. This wonderfully run organization offers assistance for living and aging with dignity and purpose in the areas of health and social services, including temporary financial assistance, case management, and residential living, and has been a crucial lifeline to thousands during and beyond critical times that our industry continues to experience. To learn more, visit mptf.com. Please join me in helping others in our industry during times of need. There are so many ways to offer support and get involved. Thank you. Here's a quote from the book, Fame is a prison,  it traps you inside other people's perceptions until you can't help believing in them yourself. Until your own lonely effort to be a human being, to be nobody is extinguished.

(22:03):

Ooh.

Matthew Specktor (22:04):

<laugh>

Kevin Goetz (22:05):

Ooh.

Matthew Specktor (22:06):

Yeah. That's from the Baldwin section, right? Yeah.

Kevin Goetz (22:09):

Yeah.

Matthew Specktor (22:09):

Chapter six.

Kevin Goetz (22:09):

That's a really deep statement and really devastating.

Matthew Specktor (22:14):

Yeah. It's funny, sometimes I do remember writing that and I think it's funny because it's like I'm not a, I'm not a famous person and never have been. I think at this point, famous writer is kind of an oxymoron, but I wasn't really interested in writing a normal Hollywood book.

Kevin Goetz (22:31):

Oh, it is not normal.

Matthew Specktor (22:32):

These are my amusing stories of famous people. I was interested in not just writing about my dad, although certainly that was a prime motivator, but-

Kevin Goetz (22:40):

Or at least what motivated you as a result of your relationship with your pop.

*Matthew Specktor (22:43):

Well, yes, it was something ... The essence of it for me was just realizing that you, Dad, and I both, and my family kind of lived through the entire modern motion picture industry, one way or another. Mm-hmm. We were all kind of embedded in it from all these different angles that, that you had been a young agent and working for Lew Wasserman, who I think invented the modern motion picture business. I say modern and I mean basically like post-

Kevin Goetz (23:09):

After Jaws and Star Wars. Well- In my world, that's when things really changed because that was the beginning of the wide release. It was the beginning of huge money poured into marketing campaigns that didn't exist prior to 1977-ish.

Matthew Specktor (23:22):

That's true. But I would even say before that, the business transformed from being owned by the studio moguls, right?

Kevin Goetz (23:29):

To become corporate behemoths.

Matthew Specktor (23:30):

Something more ... Right. But for 50 years, it kept changing. It was sort of like the studios were powerful, then, then MCA was all powerful, and then for a brief moment in the late '60s, the talent became very powerful, you know- With the

Kevin Goetz (23:45):

Beginning of United Artists.

Matthew Specktor (23:46):

Yes, and the, the kind of easy writer moment where it was sort of like, oh, you know, maybe we should kind of let the artists make these kind of crazy movies.

Kevin Goetz (23:53):

There’s that wonderful book, Movies from 1969.

Matthew Specktor (23:55):

Yeah. Yeah. The Mark Harris book. Mark Harris. Pictures.

Kevin Goetz (23:57):

It's a marvelous book.

Matthew Specktor (23:58):

Yeah, that's a great

Kevin Goetz (23:59):

Book. I have to meet Mark Harris. I haven't met him. Oh, he's wonderful. I'd like to meet him. That was a great book. A very good book. But it was so great to hear about, was it Dr. Doolittle? Dr. Doolittle. Comparing it to, like, in the heat of the night.

Matthew Specktor (24:09):

Yeah.

Kevin Goetz (24:10):

Yeah. And, and like the same year, Neil and I, my husband and I were at a dinner party a couple months ago and some guy who's, uh, I think he was an octogenarian- Yeah. ... he was certainly maybe approaching 90. And he said, "Well, you know, the quality of movies now." And I said, "Excuse me, that, I don't buy that. " I said, "There's some wonderful pictures, so many international pictures, but you're not seeing them because there's so much noise out there."

Matthew Specktor (24:33):

Yeah.

Kevin Goetz (24:34):

And he said, "Well, like when the year of The Godfather." So Neil went into his Google and he looked into what was that year and you had wonderful movies that year, The Godfather, Cabaret, Last Tango in Paris, but you also had movies like The Poseidon Adventure, Conquest of the Planet of the Apes, even Beware the Blob. So there's always been this balance of kind of more fluff and popcorn along with important movies. For sure. And I've tested consumer sentiment around that for years.

Matthew Specktor (25:05):

Right.

Kevin Goetz (25:05):

And it, every year it's the same. 67-ish percent of the audience says quality stays the same. The other third is divided in halfs. Right. One is the quality's gone up, one's the quality has gone down every year. So I think basically that tells me that people and the quality of movies really haven't gone down, which is encouraging.

Matthew Specktor (25:23):

Not by that much. I think what's changed mostly is context.

Kevin Goetz (25:27):

You bet you. And format, platform. Yes.

(25:30):

And as I like to say, Matthew, consumer behavior. Because consumers in the driver's seat. Right. When Fred, when you came up, man, it was the studios told you, "Here are the three movies opening this week, take it or leave it. Here are the videos that are hitting street dates, take it or leave it. " And three networks and then a fourth, here's what you have to watch. You'd go around a table at a dinner party and you say, "What was your favorite show?" Yeah. You won't even get consensus on one show. And if you do, you're lucky. There's that much good content.

Matthew Specktor (26:06):

Yeah. But content, and content is not film.

Kevin Goetz (26:09):

Well, I'm gonna challenge that also- Yeah. ... because here's my thought of that.

Matthew Specktor (26:13):

Yeah.

Kevin Goetz (26:13):

The younger generations view content as the same ecosystem. They don't view it as a film, as a TV show, meaning Gen Zs and half of millennials.

Matthew Specktor (26:26):

Yeah.

Kevin Goetz (26:27):

Boomers and Gen Xers do see the separation. And I think that is a difference. So when I say content, it's not meant as a pejorative. It does for people who are purists who go back and say, you know, "Look, your dad and I sit on the boards, the American Cinemateque, we love the movie going experience, right?"

Matthew Specktor (26:44):

Right.

*Kevin Goetz (26:44):

At the same time, you have to embrace the fact that there's a lot of good stuff that's out there on streamers and maybe as good if not better quality than what's in a movie theater.

Matthew Specktor (26:55):

I suppose that's true. I think movies used to come out and they'd stay for a long time, right? Months, sometimes even longer than that. So people could see them, they could return to them, and the idea too that, you know, you didn't have to plan to go to the movies, you'd just go. And sometimes you'd just be like, "You wanna go to the movies? Yeah, what are we gonna see?" I don't know, we'll see what's playing when we get there.

*Kevin Goetz (27:16):

And it was Lew Wasserman, really, in the late '70s who saw Jaws. They were at a screening in Texas. And Fred, I don't know if you remember this story or not. It was a blinding rainstorm, and they saw through the windshield wipers a line outside of the theater in the rain.

Matthew Specktor (27:34):

I know this story. ...

*Kevin Goetz (27:35):

Of an entire audience waiting to go see this movie. They see the movie, the movie scores extraordinarily well, at the end of it, Dick Zanuck told me this, they're all standing around afterwards, and Lew's head of distribution said, "We're gonna put this in six or 800 screens," which, my God, that's nothing now. Yeah. That was a huge deal then, at once. And then Lew said some version of, "I want it in only 400 screens because I don't want it in Palm Springs. I want the person in Palm Springs to drive to LA to have to see it. " And I thought that was so genius.

Matthew Specktor (28:09):

Yeah, yeah. Right? Yeah. Yeah.

Kevin Goetz (28:11):

That was Lew, you know? Like, but also he changed the whole trajectory of the business by doing that.

Matthew Specktor (28:17):

Right.

Kevin Goetz (28:17):

You understand how important that was. Suddenly, people are spending huge dollars on marketing campaigns. Right. The stakes completely changed, and our business changed forever as a result of that. To your point, it was not really about nurturing something for up to a year, by the way. Yeah.

Matthew Specktor (28:35):

Yeah.

Kevin Goetz (28:35):

This was now, you were gonna go in, you were gonna go big- Right. ... and the tent pole was born.

Matthew Specktor (28:41):

Right. But you also experienced it in a room with other people, and now, I mean, obviously, you still do with some movies, but, you know, when we were talking about audience behavior, people don't go as often as they used to.

Kevin Goetz (28:53):

Are you hopeful about the business?

Matthew Specktor (28:56):

Am I hopeful about the business, or am I hopeful about the art form? Like, I'm hopeful about movies.

Kevin Goetz (29:00):

I love you so much because here's what you said. Yeah. You said in your book, "Forms don't die." Yeah. "Only people and civilizations are mortal." Yeah. Unpack that for us.

*Matthew Specktor (29:11):

What this book really is, to me, is a book about the end of American Empire, and the movies are just sort of a very conspicuous lens for that, and an articulation of that in all of its different kind of moods, the spur for the book was when I really started thinking about my dad going to work for Lew Wasserman, and Wasserman's relationship to Ronald Reagan, and realizing that the entire late 20th American century was born in the building where my father worked.

Kevin Goetz (29:39):

You know, you bring up a point, Matthew, uh, you say, "No more middle class movies." Ah,

Matthew Specktor (29:45):

Yeah.

Kevin Goetz (29:46):

"And no more middle class people either, just riches and pores." Right. "Oh my Lord, is that prescient?"

Matthew Specktor (29:53):

Well, it certainly seemed precient to me. That was another kind of important thing for me in writing the book was just this moment moment that haunted me when I worked for Fox 2000 and I was at a corporate retreat and Bill Mechanic, who I really like, and I mean, I don't really know him, but I thought he was a wonderful guy and a guy who, you know, very, very approachable, very smart.

Kevin Goetz (30:13):

And a good writer,

*Matthew Specktor (30:14):

By the way. Yes. Oh yeah, sure. I don't know if you knew that, yeah. I did not know that, but also someone who just, you know, really knew what a good movie was. But at this retreat, he sort of gathered us all together and said, "No more middle class movies." He said, "We can make films like Titanic where the budget is over $100 million." And this was before Titanic had been released and it had not yet come out. And the thing that I think is hard to remember is that the word of mouth on Titanic before it came out was that it was gonna be a big bomb. That seemed to be the sort of conventional wisdom on the street. Obviously, I think Mechanic and the people at Fox knew otherwise, but, you know, I remember being a little, I was like, "Really? You think we should double down on bets like that?” And he said, "We can do that and we can make movies for under 10, like The Full Monty from Searchlight, which had been a big hit."

Kevin Goetz (31:02):

Can't do that anymore. Do you remember every year Searchlight would have some hit- Yeah. ... that would make a lot of money.

Matthew Specktor (31:08):

Yeah.

Kevin Goetz (31:08):

I don't know, the Full Monty made like 250 million plus worldwide. It made a ton, but they- They always had one. And then suddenly it was the world of the haves and have nots.

Matthew Specktor (31:19):

Right. And I think that was just understanding that movies that were in the kind of like 50, 60 million dollar range were not earning out. It was just something that the studio had observed and that he was sort of telling us, "This is what we can do. We cannot make middle budget movies anymore."

Kevin Goetz (31:34):

Interesting.

*Matthew Specktor (31:35):

And I remember at that time looking around and thinking, "Well, this is very bad for the movie business, or at least bad for most of the people who work in the movie business because it's gonna kind of stratify things economically for the workers as well." But I also noticed at the time that I thought, "Well, this is happening in other areas." We were, you mentioned baseball earlier. I was a big Dodger fan. The Fox at that time owned the Dodgers. And I remember just sort of thinking that suddenly there were guys who were very highly paid and guys who were making league minimum and there was a kind of middle space was getting, started to get a little squeezed.

Kevin Goetz (32:12):

A lot of that now.

Matthew Specktor (32:12):

Yeah.

Kevin Goetz (32:13):

And right. I didn't realize now that the ball clubs get dinged for spending over a certain amount. They've got to give money back

Matthew Specktor (32:20):

To the league. They have to pay back into ... Right.

Kevin Goetz (32:21):

Yeah. I didn't know that. It was kind of interesting. I just sort of learned that fact.

Matthew Specktor (32:25):

Yeah.

Kevin Goetz (32:26):

So watching your dad at work as a young guy in your teens, what left an impression on you?

*Matthew Specktor (32:33):

What left an impression was that there are and always have been these kind of cartoon portrayals of what a talent agent is, right? You know, I read What Makes Sammy Run in High School and, or I saw Broadway Danny Rose or, you know, there's this kind of public conception that agents are these kind of hustlers who are just, you know, in it for the bucks. And I think what I observed with my dad was that that just really wasn't the case, that he was very concerned with did he think that the movie in question was good and did he think that the deal that he was making was fair? And I think that is a good thing. <laugh>

Kevin Goetz (33:08):

Fred, aside from Lew, who else were influences for you- Well- ... As a young guy coming up in the business?

Fred Specktor (33:15):

Phil Kellogg was a guy at William Morris that was the head of the motion picture department and he was very smart guy.

Kevin Goetz (33:21):

Did you prefer literary or meaning writers and directors or did you prefer talent?

Fred Specktor (33:25):

I worked writers and I work with all the talent. I don't wanna limit it to-

Kevin Goetz (33:30):

Would you say, can you give me a name of somebody who you're most proud to have seen blossom like they did?

Fred Specktor (33:39):

Well, there's a writer I represent that's incredible. H- his name is Jez Butterworth and

Kevin Goetz (33:45):

He is- Oh, wow.

Fred Specktor (33:46):

Yeah, signed him when he was ... I basically had only seen his plays and he's a guy that I thought was a star and he is.

Kevin Goetz (33:56):

I'm gonna just throw out some names because I've been watching them as flash before us. For those of you who can't see, there's a, a wall behind Matthew that has pictures of past clients, current clients. Just give me a top of mind word. I did this with Rick Nicita and Paula Wagner and they were guests and it was rather fun. Let me see what happens here.

Fred Specktor (34:16):

All right.

Kevin Goetz (34:17):

Gene Hackman.

*Fred Specktor (34:19):

He was great. I must say, I never had one argument with him ever about whether he should or shouldn't do a movie. We disagreed sometimes, but then I was able to do something that got him the job. For instance, then he won the Academy Award for this. When Clint Eastwood call me about Gene making an, may have an offer to Gene, I took the offer and gave it to Gene, and Gene passed. But I didn't tell Clint right away, and that a week went by, and I know Clint's a guy who likes answers right away, and I said, "I better respond to him, but he doesn't wanna do it. " But I knew there was something about the script that was right. He had a great cast. I said, "Here's his phone number. You didn't get it from me. " And he just.

Kevin Goetz (35:06):

Clint called him?

Fred Specktor (35:06):

He called him. And 10 minutes later, I got a phone call and it was Gene. I have to do this movie because it's not about violence. This is Unforgiven, of course.

Matthew Specktor (35:18):

What? Gene was afraid that it was too violent, right? That's-

Fred Specktor (35:20):

Yeah, that's right because kids would criticize him.

Kevin Goetz (35:22):

Look at the mastery, sorry, of your dad. Yeah. No, I'm looking, going, he just allowed it to unfold in the right way. Yeah, that's exactly right. And he just let it like a good maestro. Right. Right? Right. Fabulous.

Fred Specktor (35:35):

Right.

Kevin Goetz (35:35):

All right. Danny DeVito.

Fred Specktor (35:38):

Well, funny. I saw something in an email that he sent me, which was a picture of the review of the short film that Danny was directing that I signed him from. Ministroni? Ministroni. It's a short film.

Kevin Goetz (35:54):

He was like the ball of energy, wasn't he?

Fred Specktor (35:56):

Well, he was a wonderful guy, you know, and, and-

Kevin Goetz (35:58):

Still is.

Fred Specktor (35:59):

Yeah, that's true.

Kevin Goetz (36:00):

You still represent him. Yeah. And I think he's quoted as saying, "You're still out hustling for him every gosh damn day." <laugh> That's

Matthew Specktor (36:05):

Right. You shared your first screen kiss, your only screen kiss- Yes, that's true. ... with Danny DeVito.

Kevin Goetz (36:11):

Explain. Yeah. <laugh> Fred, I had no idea.

Fred Specktor (36:15):

No, it's true, but Danny was doing a movie that Chris Pine was directing.

Kevin Goetz (36:19):

Yeah.

Fred Specktor (36:20):

And if you remember it and saw it, because very few people did.

Kevin Goetz (36:24):

What was it called?

Fred Specktor (36:25):

Pool Man. But, you know, I think Chris Pine is a good artist and it's all right when an actor gets an idea about doing a movie because he sees something other people don't.

Kevin Goetz (36:35):

Let me ask you, uh, about Morgan Freeman.

Fred Specktor (36:37):

He's great. He's a wonderful guy.

Kevin Goetz (36:40):

He just came out recently. I think I read that.

Fred Specktor (36:42):

Copying his voice.

Kevin Goetz (36:44):

Copying his voice. And he's got one of the, the voice of God, as they say, a very iconic voice and a lot of deep fakes have tried to take his voice and he came out saying, "When you do that, you are robbing me. You're stealing from me. "

Fred Specktor (36:59):

And the lawyer hears from his lawyers and then they shut it off.

Kevin Goetz (37:03):

That's great. Helen Mirren.

Fred Specktor (37:05):

She's a remarkable woman. She's not like anybody thinks because she's a Dame, so in America, she's a Dame too here.

Kevin Goetz (37:14):

Exactly. She's a broad.

Fred Specktor (37:16):

Yeah.

Kevin Goetz (37:17):

In a good way. She's a magnificent actress and- 

Fred Specktor (37:20):

She really is.

Kevin Goetz (37:20):

... it must be such a privilege. When you hear these names that I just mentioned to you, there has to be a responsibility. Like, my God, they're entrusting you with these massive, dare I say, legendary careers. Yeah. How, how do you feel about that?

*Fred Specktor (37:37):

Well, I love my clients, you know? I mean, I can even understand why you get fired once in a while from actors or filmmakers because they may not think you understand them and understand where they belong. And every artist wants to be thought about like Martin Scorsese has thought about like Woody Allen was thought about like a number of artists. And so if you have somebody who believes that, and I believe every one of my clients belongs at the top of the list.

Kevin Goetz (38:07):

List. I know you do. I mean, I really feel that from you. Yeah.

Fred Specktor (38:11):

And so it isn't any fun if you're representing people who have no talent.

Kevin Goetz (38:15):

Have you had any regrets that there was someone you had the opportunity to represent, but they got away from you?

Fred Specktor (38:22):

I think I missed out on some people. I think because I didn't have the nerve to call them, because there's a shyness about me that I feel.

Kevin Goetz (38:31):

And a self-deprecating quality you have.

Fred Specktor (38:33):

Yeah.

Kevin Goetz (38:33):

I hadn't realized it so much. I'm not sure if I'm remembering this correctly, but didn't you even take classes in photography or something?

Fred Specktor (38:40):

Yeah, I did.

Kevin Goetz (38:41):

How do I remember that? It's so weird.

Fred Specktor (38:42):

Weird. I don't know either.

Kevin Goetz (38:43):

From Dan Petrie, I think.

Fred Specktor (38:44):

Yeah. I did. And I loved it, you know? I always wanted to be.

Kevin Goetz (38:48):

Oh my gosh, that goes back to your love of wanting to be a cameraman. Yeah.

Fred Specktor (38:51):

I wanted to be a DP in my early days. I wanted to go to work as a cameraman.

Kevin Goetz (38:58):

I want to sort of bring this to a close by asking you both just a couple of questions about where you think the future is going. And are you hopeful about the future? I kind of got into this, but I didn't really probe it. But Matthew, where do you think this business is headed and does that excite you or frighten you? Hope you're not here.

*Matthew Specktor (39:21):

Is there an all with the above answer? Look, I am by definition hopeful about the art itself, the form, and that kind of goes across the board, whether it's literature or film, it's like I know and I meet so many young people and agenting too. I gave a talk at Chapman College a couple years ago and I remember meeting this guy and just being like, "Oh, this is the sort of person that like an artist needs to be represented by is this guy." So it's impossible to not be optimistic about the actual thing, movies. As far as the kind of American motion picture industry and the streaming economy, I'm not so optimistic about that, but I don't think of the threat as existential, you know, people go on and on about AI.

Kevin Goetz (40:05):

Well, that is a whole nother topic. Clearly we haven't even scratched the surface- Yeah. Yeah. ... of where that's gonna take us.

Matthew Specktor (40:11):

Yeah.

Kevin Goetz (40:11):

You do say dream is stronger than reality- Yeah. ... and fear- Yeah. ... like love is stronger even than death. Yeah. So clearly a sweeping articulation of the book's core worldview, Hollywood thrives on this truth, doesn't it?

Matthew Specktor (40:30):

Yeah.

Kevin Goetz (40:30):

And so do the characters.

Matthew Specktor (40:31):

And so do lots of people outside Hollywood these days, unfortunately. <laugh> But it would be nice if some respect for truths and facts were to persist.

Kevin Goetz (40:42):

Absolutely. Yeah. Fred, what about for you? You hopeful about the future?

Fred Specktor (40:46):

Reasonably so, but I think the difference today is they make very few movies. Studios do. Helen Mirren did a streamerthis year or two years ago.

Kevin Goetz (40:57):

Yeah, 1923.

Fred Specktor (40:58):

Yeah, that's correct. And she had a good time on it. But it's short. It's only 10 episodes or eight episodes- Right. ... and you get some thrill out of it. My personal belief is I still like to go to movies with Nancy, my wife, and I saw one last week that moved me, as I said to you before. I went to the theater to see it.

Kevin Goetz (41:17):

Good for you. Fred, I hope you're around for as many years as you still wanna do this because we need you, man. We love you. And by the way, say hi to Nancy for me.

Fred Specktor (41:26):

I will.

Kevin Goetz (41:27):

And thank you for your contributions to this business in the most sincere and earnest way-

Fred Specktor (41:32):

Thank you very much.

Kevin Goetz (41:32):

... way you've really been a role model for so many of us in both your talent, but in your extraordinary character. Thank you. And also I applaud you, Matthew, your book, The Golden Hour: A Story of Family and Power in Hollywood needs to be read by everyone. It's a wonderful expose on Hollywood, but also a very personal story, and I was really moved by it, so thank you so much. And both of you, thanks for joining me today. Thank you so much.

Fred Specktor (42:01):

Thank you very much.

Matthew Specktor (42:02):

Really appreciate it.

Fred Specktor (42:03):

Pleasure was ours.

Kevin Goetz (42:07):

To our listeners, I hope you enjoy this conversation. For more insights into filmmaking, audience testing, and the business of Hollywood, I invite you to check out my books, Audienceology, and How to Score in Hollywood at Amazon, or through my website at kevingoetz360.com. You can also follow me on my social media. Next time on Don't Kill the Messenger, I'll welcome the multifaceted producer and veteran network chief, Gail Berman. Until then, I'm Kevin Goetz, and to you, our listeners, I appreciate you being part of the movie-making process. Your opinions matter.

Host: Kevin Goetz
Guests: Matthew and Fred Specktor
Producer: Kari Campano
Writers: Kevin Goetz, Darlene Hayman, and Kari Campano
Audio Engineer: Gary Forbes (DG Entertainment)