Podcast: Don't Kill the Messenger with Movie Research Expert Kevin Goetz
Guest: Gail Berman

Interview Transcript:

Announcer (00:03):

From script to screen, every film is brought to life by visionary creatives and executives, all sharing one mission to captivate the audience. Hosted by award-winning movie strategist Kevin Goetz, our podcast, Don't Kill the Messenger, offers a filmmaking masterclass through intimate conversations with Hollywood's most influential voices. And now, your host, Kevin Goetz.

Kevin Goetz (00:29):

Every once in a while, someone comes along who changes the gravitational pull of the business. My guest today has built hit franchises, run a major network, led a major studio, and produced everything from cultural touchstones to the Oscar-nominated film, Elvis. She has moved between mediums, film, television, digital, and Broadway, with a creative fearlessness that continues to shape the industry. In a business where versatility is rare, her range is unmatched. That person is Gail Berman. Gail, I am so excited to have you here. I can not even contain myself.

Gail Berman (01:10):

Oh, thank you, Kevin. It's delightful to be here.

Kevin Goetz (01:13):

We have so much to get into, and I'm just gonna jump in, and I'll start with Brooklyn.

Gail Berman (01:17):

<laugh> Everything leads back to Brooklyn, so yes. 

Kevin Goetz (01:20):

We were neighbors.

Gail Berman (01:21):

Yes, we were.

Kevin Goetz (01:21):

You were-

Gail Berman (01:22):

Sheepset Bay.

Kevin Goetz (01:23):

And I was Bensonhurst.

Gail Berman (01:24):

Oh, okay.

Kevin Goetz (01:24):

You left pretty early too, right?

Gail Berman (01:26):

Yeah, I was about nine months old- Oh. ... when we moved to Long Island.

Kevin Goetz (01:29):

What was a young gal like growing up?

Gail Berman (01:32):

Very, very lonely. Listening to a lot of Broadway shows. When I moved to Philadelphia, when I'm 13, my life takes a very big, significant turn.

Kevin Goetz (01:45):

Why?

*Gail Berman (01:46):

Because I know no one. I literally know no one. And I pick up an instrument, the guitar. I start singing, playing guitar, and it opens a world to me that I hadn't experienced before. And that was sort of a game-changer. Then I started to sing and get cast in shows and things like that. So what really opened up something in me that was, I think, waiting to be unleashed <laugh>-

Kevin Goetz (02:15):

Unleashed. Yeah. Yes. How was your relationship with mom?

Gail Berman (02:19):

Very close to my parents. Not that they really understood where I was going and what I was doing. In fact, they really did not. But I was always close with them.

Kevin Goetz (02:30):

I suspect you and I share that very much because I say that my parents were not supportive. However, they weren't unsupportive.

Gail Berman (02:38):

Right. That's exactly the way my parents were. Now, when I come back to Baltimore, which is where they move after Philadelphia to do Joseph, I go home, I live with them.

Kevin Goetz (02:51):

How old were you at that time?

Gail Berman (02:53):

I was 22, I think, when-

Kevin Goetz (02:54):

So you had just left Maryland. You went to University of Maryland, right?

Gail Berman (02:57):

I went to University of Maryland.

Kevin Goetz (02:59):

I did my research.

Gail Berman (03:00):

<laugh> I graduated from the University of Maryland. That's where I met my future husband.

Kevin Goetz (03:05):

I- Of 45 years now.

Gail Berman (03:06):

45 years, yeah.

Kevin Goetz (03:07):

Mazeltov.

Gail Berman (03:09):

I am a lucky, lucky girl.

Kevin Goetz (03:10):

So you meet your husband in college?

Gail Berman (03:12):

Yeah. I met him when I was 19, and we've been together since then.

Kevin Goetz (03:16):

What was it about him at first that ... Because that's extraordinary.

*Gail Berman (03:19):

Well, he was a little older, so he was more mature than some of the other young men. It was the theater department. He was straight, so that was kind of nice. He had just come out of the Navy, and so he was really a different kind of individual that I had never kind of met.

Kevin Goetz (03:36):

Was he an actor?

Gail Berman (03:37):

He was in the theater department to try to be an actor. He became a standup comic and ultimately became a comedy writer.

Kevin Goetz (03:44):

I was gonna say, I bet you that, and I can tell you this from my own relationship, part of the longevity has to do with the fact that Neil's so funny.

Gail Berman (03:55):

And Bill is so funny. And it's just the heart of the marriage is how fun it is to be married to him.

Kevin Goetz (04:03):

So no one really gets you in your familial circle because you had enormous, well, intellect, ambition, drive, and you produce your first Broadway show when you're 22. You mentioned it before. You said Joseph, it's Joseph and the Amazing Technicolor Dreamcoat. I remember singing that when I was in seventh or eighth grade- Right. ... in music class and being blown away by that Andrew Lloyd Weber score.

Gail Berman (04:31):

It's an incredible score.

Kevin Goetz (04:33):

And that narrator, Laurie Beechman-

Gail Berman (04:35):

Laurie Beechman-

Kevin Goetz (04:36):

Who we lost way too early- Yes,

Gail Berman (04:37):

We did.

Kevin Goetz (04:38):

... of cancer, I believe, right?

Gail Berman (04:39):

Yes. And the way that role came about was originally a male narrator. We were the first production on Broadway. Just a little bit of the history. Please.

*(04:51):

Right after graduating from college, I moved to New York. I'm just like, I'm ready. I don't know what it is I'm gonna do, but I'm moving. I was doing musicals or plays in college. And so not that long after I arrive in New York, I get a call from a friend of mine named Susan Rose, and I knew her in college, and she said that she had seen this show called Joseph and the Amazing Technicolor Dreamcoat at the Olney Theater that summer after graduating from college. And the Olney Theater was the summer theater of Catholic University, and Catholic University was a big theater school. Most people don't realize that, but Susan Sarandon went there as did many, many actors. And she had seen it, and she loved it. And she asked me if I knew anything about it. I did. I was a little bit of a savant who knew a lot of little bits of information.

(05:44):

I knew it had been tried before at Philadelphia Playhouse in the Park, and I had not been successful. Anyway, we started talking about it, and she said, "Well, when are you coming back to Baltimore?" And I said, "Actually, I'm coming back next weekend because my boyfriend is there. I'm gonna see my parents and-

Kevin Goetz (06:02):

Bill. <laugh>

*Gail Berman (06:03):

Bill Masters. So she said, "Well, why don't we get together when you come back and let's talk about this." And so we did. And right then and there, that weekend, we decided to get together and try to produce the Olney Theater production somewhere else. And one of the ideas was Ford's Theater in Washington. Ford's Theater had opened up again as a live theater venue. Frankie Hewitt, Don Hewitt's ex- wife, Frankie Hewitt was running it. She was sort of a Doyen of the Washington scene. And we didn't have any money, we didn't have the rights, we didn't have anything. So we found out that Robert Stigwood was the guy who controlled the rights. And at the time, and this is 1979, Robert Stigwood is about the biggest person in show business. He's a music producer, he's a movie producer, he's a manager, he's everything. And so we just start calling there. I mean, if you can imagine, I, you know, I'd like to speak with Mr. Stigwood and, you know, go, "Well, who is this? " And eventually, Marty, who was his secretary, who, when this show does open on Broadway, we give Marty the best seat in the house. I'm just letting you know that. So it ends very well for Marty. Marty eventually says, "Look, girls, he's not gonna get on the phone with you, but if you're looking for rights to something, let me lead you to somebody who might be able to help you. "

Kevin Goetz (07:44):

Oh, God bless her.

Gail Berman (07:45):

That was a miracle. And eventually, we get led to a man named David Land. David Land was the co-deputy chair of the Stigwood Organization, a very famous British producer. He's the one who brought Lloyd Weber and Rice to Stigwood, and that's how they form a partnership.

Kevin Goetz (08:08):

Was this their first production, by the way? The first writing together?

Gail Berman (08:11):

Well, there was something called Jeeves before that, but it's really the one that sort of took off, and it was done perennially in the UK.

Kevin Goetz (08:21):

They called it a rock opera.

*Gail Berman (08:22):

Yeah, they did call it a rock opera. And it's a great lesson in how Stigwood's mind worked because he put Jesus Christ Superstar out, which would come after it as an album before it ever became a show. It's actually something I've thought about over the years many, many times is how to think about something in a different way and maybe try it down a different route before you go the other way. Right. And I know that that comes up in your work too. When people are familiar with something, even if it's not what you're showing them, that familiarity becomes something that you can test, and that's something that Stigwood understood. So eventually, we do get the rights to do it at Ford's Theater in Washington. We raised $150,000, which honestly could have been a million, it could have been a billion. We had no money, so it was, it was all like, how is this gonna happen?

(09:22):

We found a great investor, a man named Melvyn Estrin, who was on the board of Ford's Theater in Washington, and he became a great pal of ours for the rest of his life. And eventually, we do take that show from the Olney Theater and put it on at Ford's Theater. And the show's doing pretty well. I mean, we're the only two employees. We do everything. You know, we count the tickets at the end of the night to make sure the rap is there. Oh my gosh. I mean, we're doing everything. There's no assistant that, you know, they would say Telex something to us in London, and we'd be like, Telex. We barely have.

Kevin Goetz (10:00):

Did you recast it?

Gail Berman (10:01):

At that time, we used the same cast from the Olney Theater. When we go to New York, that would be a different story.

Kevin Goetz (10:08):

Did you ever think about putting yourself in? I'm not joking.

Gail Berman (10:10):

Well, it's how I got my equity card, just FYI. I thought, "Well, let me just do this just in case. I'll put myself as an understudy or something and get my equity card." I never went on, but I did get my equity card that way, just in case.

Kevin Goetz (10:25):

Who was your narrator?

Gail Berman (10:27):

It was a man, and the role was written for a man. And we did it with a young man playing the role.

Kevin Goetz (10:35):

Way, way back many centuries ago.

Gail Berman (10:39):

Not long after the vibe began. What we don't know is as the show is running, Variety has in its back pages the grosses of the theaters around the country. So they are following the grosses of Ford's Theater in Washington, and there's something going on at Ford's Theater, because Ford's Theater is making money. And so we start to get calls from people from New York. Unbeknownst to us, how- Like

Kevin Goetz (11:08):

The Schuberts and Nederlanders?

Gail Berman (11:09):

It's not the Schuberts and the Nederlanders yet, but it will be, but it is various producers, some talent, a choreographer, I mean, variety of people. And ultimately a man named Zev Buffman. And Zev Buffman was, at the time, a very big Broadway producer. People started to come down to Washington to see the show, and everybody had an opinion, "This is what you should do, and that's what you should do. " And we didn't have the rights to take it anywhere else. Let me be clear about that. We had the rights to do it at Ford's Theater in Washington.

Kevin Goetz (11:45):

Did Stigwood ever come to see it in Washington?

Gail Berman (11:47):

No, but David Land does come to see it with his beautiful wife, Zara. Actually, they're coming to meet with Hal Prince about Evita, and Evita's gonna be in Washington. Oh, that's right. And so this is the same time- Is that where it started? No. Evita comes to Broadway, but then they're gonna do another production in Washington. So it's 1979 for Evita, or 80. By the time we come to New York, it's 1981, and by the time we go to Broadway, it's January of 1982. So we open in 1980. We run for nine months. We then shut down to reconfigure, to come off Broadway. David says, "Well, the boys don't want anything other than Evita on Broadway. We're not gonna give you those rights, but we'll give you the rights to do the offer.”

Kevin Goetz (12:39):

The boys meaning Andrew- Yeah. ... Lloyd Webber and Tim Rice.

Gail Berman (12:42):

And so- 

Kevin Goetz (12:42):

Did you get a theater off Broadway?

Gail Berman (12:44):

There was a theater off Broadway. It was the same theater that Grease had been in, and it was called, at the time, The Intermedia Theater.

Kevin Goetz (12:51):

I didn't even know Grease started off Broadway.

Gail Berman (12:53):

Yes, it did. It wasn't called the Intermediate Theater when Grease started there, but when we started there, it was, and that's at 2nd Avenue and 12th Street. It had been an old Yiddish theater, but what happened was we brought in a new director, Tony Tanner, and we started auditioning people. And this young woman came in and she blew us away, a woman named Laurie Beechman.

Kevin Goetz (13:18):

But why did you invite her to sing- 

Gail Berman (13:21):

Well, she, We were auditioning for all- For all the parts.

Kevin Goetz (13:24):

'Cause there aren't many female parts in there. There,

Gail Berman (13:26):

You know, there's a whole female chorus. She just blew us away so much that we were like, "What can we do with her?" I mean, we have to have her in this. She's amazing. And we changed the part for her.

Kevin Goetz (13:40):

That is just unbelievable. You hear these stories of that happening, but someone on sheer talent walks in, blows you away with her vocal prowess.

Gail Berman (13:51):

And it changes the show forever. She changes the show forever.

Kevin Goetz (13:56):

And please, listeners, listen to the original cast recording with Laurie Beechman. She's an extraordinary talent, and it blew me away. Chained and bound, afraid alone. And you were nominated for Seven Tony Awards. We weren't. Is your girlfriend also 23 at that point?

Gail Berman (14:12):

At this point, I think we're 24 or 25. It's- Okay,

Kevin Goetz (14:15):

But you know what I'm saying It's a little time there. It's pretty damn impressive.

Gail Berman (14:17):

We are the youngest producers in the league of the Broadway Producers League. Now it's the- Did

Kevin Goetz (14:23):

Did you make any money?

Gail Berman (14:24):

... of American theaters and producers. We kept afloat, is what I'll tell you. You're either making a killing in the theater or you're just hanging on. And we were learning the ropes as we went, and we were hanging on.

Kevin Goetz (14:41):

How'd you move to Broadway?

Gail Berman (14:42):

When we moved off Broadway, we had a partner, Zev Buffman. Mm-hmm. And Zev knew the ropes, and Zev was sort of always wheeling and dealing, and he said, "We should just move this. " And they ultimately gave us the rights to do it. We moved it to the Royal Theater on 45th Street.

Kevin Goetz (15:03):

That's where Grease played.

Gail Berman (15:04):

It was where Grease played. We had a very similar route to Grease.

Kevin Goetz (15:08):

And Evita was still on Broadway.

Gail Berman (15:09):

And Evita was on Broadway. So now they have- They changed their mind. ... had two shows on Broadway. They would come to have several more as time went on simultaneously. And that was owned by the Schuberts. So we got to know Bernie Jacobs, Jerry Schoenfeld, and the show also was going on the road and-

Kevin Goetz (15:29):

And it was a great show on the road.

Gail Berman (15:30):

Went on the road to Nederlander houses.

Kevin Goetz (15:32):

This is only in one act, isn't it? Like 90 minutes?

Gail Berman (15:35):

Well, it was actually 90 minutes. We divided it into two acts. We did. So we made it slightly longer evening, but believe me, easily play <laugh> in one act and very enjoyable for families. Anyway, it was an extraordinary thing to happen.

Kevin Goetz (15:48):

And the Tony's at 25, what was that like?

*Gail Berman (15:52):

Well, it was all about the dress, but I did get the red dress, and it wasn't until the Palisades Fires that my home was damaged, so all of my clothing was taken out, and that dress, which was in a special bag somewhere, was taken out too. So no idea if I'll ever see the dress again, but I think- You haven't gotten a kick back? No, no, because of all the insurance issues that everybody's dealing with. So you can't touch anything until they make the settlement. So it's in some box somewhere, we still have the dress.

Kevin Goetz (16:23):

So Gail, let me ask you, how did you make the transition from Broadway Wonderkind to Los Angeles?

Gail Berman (16:34):

Well, it's an interesting- And television. Because it has a lot to do with my husband's trip to Los Angeles.

Kevin Goetz (16:39):

Did you love TV, by the way, growing up?

Gail Berman (16:41):

I watched a lot of TV.

Kevin Goetz (16:42):

You did.

Gail Berman (16:43):

Frankly, I watched a lot of movies on TV.

Kevin Goetz (16:45):

But theater was your first love.

Gail Berman (16:47):

Theater was my first love. I never thought I would do anything other than work in the theater. My entire life was always about one thing. And here it was, at a very early age, I got that thing. It happened. So I produced Joseph and Hurley Burley and Blood Knot and The Nerd. Those were my Broadway shows.

Kevin Goetz (17:07):

And that was in that period of time, let's say- 

Gail Berman (17:09):

In one decade.

Kevin Goetz (17:09):

Yeah, I was gonna say for the next five, six, seven years.

Gail Berman (17:13):

At the end of that time, my partner, Susan Rose, was getting married and she was off to do certain things and everything was changing.

Kevin Goetz (17:23):

I do wanna say I do very much remember that production of Hurley Burley.

Gail Berman (17:26):

It was amazing.

Kevin Goetz (17:27):

And David Rabe was roommates with one of my best friends, Jerry Paonessa.

Gail Berman (17:31):

Mm.

Kevin Goetz (17:31):

And Jerry, who was married to someone you know Jody Brockway.

Gail Berman (17:34):

Oh, yeah.

Kevin Goetz (17:35):

And so Jerry and David were really super close, so I would get inside Scoop on that. That was some production. Wasn't Cynthia Nixon in that? Yes she was. And didn't she do two shows at the exact same time? How did you work that out? 

*Gail Berman (17:48):

It wasn't me that worked it out. It was Mike Nichols who worked it out because he had directed both of the shows. For me, getting in this world, I mean the headiest of worlds and the way we got brought in was through a man named Fred Zollo who was similarly producing on Broadway at the time. And so we wound up coming in with him, brought the show into New York. Obviously getting to meet Mike Nichols was, for me, unbelievable. I mean, there's a lot of unbelievable things that happened over this decade. But at the end of it, I have no idea what I wanna do. I don't wanna just keep raising money because we were living in the city, had no children, Bill is on the road as a comedian and he's writing. And he sells a script to Disney.

(18:42):

And in the old days when you sold a script, you had the opportunity to get a two-picture deal. So you'd sell your, your one that you wrote and you'd have another one behind it. 

Kevin Goetz (18:53):

This was for a Movie or a series?

Gail Berman (18:54):

Oh. Well, he didn't write for Disney, but it sold to Disney.

Kevin Goetz (18:57):

Did it ever get made?

Gail Berman (18:58):

It never got made. It was called Good News, Bad News. And you had, I think, on your show, David Permut.

Kevin Goetz (19:03):

Yes.

Gail Berman (19:04):

David Permut was the producer who bought that script, so we always hold David very fondly in our hearts.

Kevin Goetz (19:10):

There's no one like him.

Gail Berman (19:10):

So a long story way of telling you this is we're in California and then we come back to New York because we're trying to figure out what to do. Should we pack up now? What should we do? And we come back and on my answering machine, literally, remember answering machines.

Kevin Goetz (19:29):

Oh yeah.

*Gail Berman (19:30):

A friend of mine named Betsy Borns, who's a wonderful comedy writer, leaves me a message on this tape and she says, "Hi, I'm looking for you, remember no cell phones." HBO's doing this new thing and they're looking for an eclectic group of executives and I know you'd be perfect for this. And she says, "Give me a call." So I call her, we're just back in New York, and she tells me, "I want you to meet this woman. Her name is Bonnie Burns. Stu Smiley's involved. This one's involved. You know all the people and they're gonna love you. " I go, "I don't know anything about TV. What are you talking about? " She goes, "I know you don't know anything about TV, but you know about writers and you know this and that and they will love you. They're looking for a different kind of crowd." So Betsy Borns calls me and I go to meet Bonnie Burns.

Kevin Goetz (20:22):

I bet her instincts are extraordinary.

*Gail Berman (20:24):

She's incredibly funny and her husband, Jonathan Shapiro's great writer. They're fantastic. So Betsy does this. I go to meet Bonnie Burns. She asked me the question, "You don't know anything about making TV?" I said, "No, no, I don't know anything. I wanna be clear. I've never been in a studio. I don't know anything about it. " She goes, "Well, do you know the difference between a three quarter inch tape and a half inch tape?" And I go, "A quarter of an inch." I mean, that's the only thing I can tell you. That's all I know. And she laughed. She thinks it's funny. And I go- But you meant it? I'm not kidding you, but I'm a fast learner and I know writing and I know writing and I know writing. So somehow or other, she decides to hire me. And I become first an associate producer of this brand new cable channel and then the executive producer of this brand new cable channel, which is being done out of 23rd Street Studios and it's brand new.So I learn how to produce television in a studio setting. I learn all about how to start a cable network. I learn a lot of things at a time when all of this stuff is changing. After about a year and a half, Viacom and HBO decide to merge their two comedy channels and they call it Comedy Central. And when this is starting to happen, Bill's career is really heating up in LA and he says, "Look, it's time to go. " We drove across country. I come to Los Angeles with no job.

Kevin Goetz (22:06):

But Bill has a job.

Gail Berman (22:07):

Bill, thank God someone's making some money. Right.

Kevin Goetz (22:09):

Where'd you guys live?

Gail Berman (22:10):

In Whitley Heights. Oh, right. Near the Hollywood Bowl.

Kevin Goetz (22:13):

Hollywood Bowl.

*Gail Berman (22:13):

Near the Hollywood Bowl. It's like a little tree house. It's so cute. I love it. I think it's just so perfect. So right before I leave New York, I get a call from a friend of mine named David Goodman. David Goodman would become the head of the writer’s guild. You might know David Goodman's name, but anyway, David, who's a friend of mine, a writer, he says to me, "You know, I'm working on this show in LA and they're look..." He knew I was coming to Los Angeles. And he said, "They're looking for an executive at this company." And I said, "Well, what's the company?" And he goes, "It's called Sandollar, and it's a woman named Candace Farrell, and she's looking for a number two in TV." And I was like, "I'd love to meet her. I'm going, I don't know anyone." I'm like, "Great. I'd love to talk to her. You know, give me her number." He said, "Well, I'll tell her and she'll give you a call." And I have, by this point, set up a phone in the place we're gonna move, so we have a answering machine there. And when we get to Los Angeles, there's a message saying, you know, "Give us a call. We'd like to meet you. " And I do that right away. I give her a call and I go over to Sunset Gower Studios, which is where they're shooting this sitcom that they're making. So I meet her, I have a terrific rapport with her, really nice conversation, and she says, "Well, I'm gonna have to introduce you to my boss. I can't hire you unless you meet him." And I'm like, "Who's he? " And his name is Sandy Gallen and, you know, they'll call you and-

Kevin Goetz (23:53):

Oh, of course, biggest claim to fame is Dolly Parton.

*Gail Berman (23:56):

Right. Well, the company's called Sandollar, San, Sandy and Dolly, Sandollar. That's how the name comes about. And that's why when we talk about Buffy, you know, so many people have discovered that Dolly was involved with Buffy. It becomes such a big deal on the internet. You can pull up Dolly's name and you see Buffy and there's all kinds of talk about Dolly and Buffy. Anyway, I eventually do go to meet Sandy, who is one of the great Hollywood characters of all time. And he says to me, when he sees my resume, and this is really true, he says to me, "If you've done all these things, how come I don't know you? " Which is just the best lines of start an interview with. I'm like, "I don't know why you don't know me.”

Kevin Goetz (24:43):

I can understand why he said all these things. Say that because you did do all those things.

*Gail Berman (24:47):

And here I am starting again, and this is what I like to talk to young people about, which is when I went to the comedy channel, I was discussing it with my husband, "Should I take the job? Should I not take the job? Should I go back to producing? What should I do? " And he said something that really remains true for me to this very day. He said, "Why don't you try it and leave your posters at home?" And it was a great metaphor for so much of my life, which is if you're gonna do it and try something and start again, do not put your old posters up on the wall. You just have to buckle down, learn it and do it again. I listen so much in my head to that mantra a lot of ... I will remember it a lot of times because I've done a lot of different things. And in order to try, you have to not take that baggage with you. It's too much and it will weigh you down.

Kevin Goetz (25:51):

Such sage advice. When we come back, we're gonna talk to Gail about her massively successful television career. We'll be back in a moment. Listeners, the Motion Picture and Television Fund is a nonprofit charitable organization that supports working and retired members of the entertainment community. This wonderfully run organization offers assistance for living and aging with dignity and purpose in the areas of health and social services, including temporary financial assistance, case management, and residential living, and has been a crucial lifeline to thousands during and beyond critical times that our industry continues to experience. To learn more, visit mptf.com. Please join me in helping others in our industry during times of need. There are so many ways to offer support and get involved. Thank you. We're back with Gail Berman. Gail, you are now at Sandollar. What do you do there that was the most, I guess, important for advancing Gail's career?

*Gail Berman (27:09):

Well, for advancing my career, I think there's no doubt that doing Buffy, The Vampire Slayer, would become the gift that keeps on giving.

Kevin Goetz (27:17):

I did want to ask you about Angel too.

Gail Berman (27:20):

Very, very quickly, almost impossibly quickly, we went from show to spinoff. I think it was probably the shortest amount of time any show had ever gone from a show to having a spinoff.

Kevin Goetz (27:32):

Can't believe how fast the cult following began on that show. How did you cast Sarah Michelle Geller?

*Gail Berman (27:38):

Well, originally, we cast Sarah for the role of Cordelia. We did not cast her as Buffy, and we can't find a Buffy. And I cannot tell you who, probably Marcia Shulman, who was casting the show at the time. It was probably Marcia that says, "We should see Sarah again." For Buffy, I said, "Well, then what are we gonna do for Cordelia?" She's like, "If you don't have Buffy, you don't have the show." She's right.

Kevin Goetz (28:05):

Very true.

*Gail Berman (28:06):

So we do see Sarah again, and she's 17 years old, and she comes in and she just nails it. Wow. She is Buffy, and-

Kevin Goetz (28:17):

You mean you felt it right away?

Gail Berman (28:18):

Right away.

Kevin Goetz (28:19):

It's like walking into a house that you're gonna buy. It's the Laurie Beechman story. Give me another one that was love at first sight. Well-

*Gail Berman (28:26):

How about Austin Butler? How about when we saw Austin's screen test? For Elvis, there were a total of four screen tests that day. His was the last, so Baz showed us the three others first, and then Austin, and Austin was Elvis.

Kevin Goetz (28:46):

And that went on to garner you an Academy Award nomination.

Gail Berman (28:49):

It did indeed. It did.

Kevin Goetz (28:50):

That must have been an unbelievable experience.

Gail Berman (28:53):

10 years, unbelievable. I

Kevin Goetz (28:56):

Love that movie. Give me another one.

Gail Berman (28:58):

David Boreanaz was the exact same thing. We couldn't find Angel. And actually, Marcia Shulman and I got into an argument about it because I said to her, "You don't understand." And she goes, "Oh, I understand. I understand all right." <laugh> And David had done nothing. One episode of Married with Children, that's it, small role. And we cast him, and then of course, I would cast him several other times in my career, which I had the good benefit of casting him two more times.

Kevin Goetz (29:30):

How do you get to Fox?

Gail Berman (29:33):

So when I leave Sandollar, it's because I've just had my twins, and-

Kevin Goetz (29:39):

Did you take maternity leave? I can see you probably bringing him into the office <laugh>.

Gail Berman (29:43):

When you work for Sandy Gallen, there is no such thing as maternity leave. He called me literally in the hospital. So, um-

Kevin Goetz (29:51):

Gail, uh, Carol Baum, there-

Gail Berman (29:53):

Well, I'm sure

Kevin Goetz (29:53):

You're- She's been a guest.

Gail Berman (29:54):

Yes, yes. I'm sure Carol told you fabulous Sandy stories. I mean, Sandy's Stories are amazing. And the fact is that Carol and Howard had produced Buffy as a feature film for Sandoval.

Kevin Goetz (30:08):

Howard Rosenman.

Gail Berman (30:09):

Howard Rosenman.

Kevin Goetz (30:10):

He's fantastic.

Gail Berman (30:10):

And Carol Baum.

Kevin Goetz (30:12):

By the way, I just saw him. Oh. And I'm gonna be getting together with him at the Angel Awards. Oh

Gail Berman (30:16):

My goodness.

Kevin Goetz (30:16):

Project Angel Film.

Gail Berman (30:17):

Well, I love them both. They worked on the film side of the company. I worked in the television side. So we were not in the same offices, but they had produced this movie called Buffy the Vampire SLayer. And funnily enough, when I got to Sandollar, I decided to read everything that the company was doing to sort of get familiar with everything. I didn't know the company. I didn't know all their projects. So I thought, well, I'm just gonna take a stack of scripts home and read some. And Buffy was one of those scripts, the feature film.

Kevin Goetz (30:51):

And you saw it as a show?

*Gail Berman (30:53):

And I was like, "God, this make a great TV show." Well, it would not right away because the movie was waiting to be released and it came out and didn't do that well as a feature film. But I literally put the script on my shelf and thought maybe one day we'll go back to that. And that is indeed what happened.

Kevin Goetz (31:14):

Did you use my facility to test it?

Gail Berman (31:17):

Yeah. ASI? I'm sure. Kevin, I was in ASI like three weeks ago.

Kevin Goetz (31:22):

I was just gonna say, you lived in ASI as a head of the network.

Gail Berman (31:26):

I ate more- M&Ms. If it's Tuesday, it must be Mediterranean. Oh, exactly. Wednesday, it must be dumplings and Chinese food. <laugh> I ate more meals.

Kevin Goetz (31:37):

So ASI is a company I bought. It's been about almost 13 years now.

Gail Berman (31:41):

Wow.

Kevin Goetz (31:42):

And I wanted to thrust myself into the television business because as you know, Gail, I was so immersed in movies. And every time I'd go into the television research departments, they'd all say, "Well, we love your experience, but what about television? What about television?" I never really couldn't make a good defense <laugh> for why they should hire.

Gail Berman (32:02):

Sooner or later, everyone has to come to TV.

Kevin Goetz (32:05):

Why they should hire screen engine. And ultimately, after I bought it, it was pretty dusty brand at that point because, you know, it was analog dials and so forth. And they weren't doing quantitative testing. Mm-hmm. They were just doing sort of the focus groups- Right. ... and these small 48 seats-

Gail Berman (32:20):

Spent lots and lots of time.

Kevin Goetz (32:22):

And I was gonna say, so we really built the business up- mm-hmm. ... uh, tremendously as a result of that. Let's go back to, you have your twins.

Gail Berman (32:31):

And Sandy has made a deal for the company to be at Disney and it's so far away from my home in Pacific Palisades because I can't get home to even put my kids to bed. And so I manage, believe it or not, to get 20th Century Fox to offer him a deal, but only in the television area so that I could just be on the Fox lot, which is where the company had started when I first started working there. It was on the Fox Lot. But he wanted the film studio too, and the film studio at Disney wanted both television and film. So I was like, "Okay, well, let me go. I'm just gonna go produce Buffy andAngel. I'll have the kids. I'm gonna work out of Santa Monica, which is where the warehouses were for Buffy, and Paramount was where Angel was shot, and it would be really much better lifestyle for me.

(33:28):

And he says, eventually, okay. And that's when I leave running his company, and I just go to produce Buffy and Angel. That's it. That's what I'm doing in with my life. And as is very typical in my career, I get a phone call from somebody-

Kevin Goetz (33:48):

On the answering machine.

Gail Berman (33:49):

No, there's no more answering machine. I'm happy to report. This is an actual call in my office from my dear friend, Nancy Josephson, who is an agent and a wonderful person, incredible woman, and she goes, "Oh, you won't believe this. I just came from lunch with Peter Chernin." And I said, "Oh, that's nice. How's Peter?" Hadn't seen him, didn't know him very well, but, you know, I was making two television shows for him. So Nancy calls me, she said, "I won't believe you came up at lunch with Peter Chernin." And I said, "I came up at lunch. How did that happen?" She said, "He asked about you and what you were doing." I said, "Oh, well, that's great. He, you know, I'm producing two shows for him. He doesn't even know what I'm doing, so ... Well, he'd really like to talk to you. You should give him a call." I was like, "Okay, wow." And it hadn't been that long since I had left Sandy, so it was really only a couple of months. And I called Peter's office and I set a meeting with him and I go in and he is delightful as he always is. He's a charmer's charmer and a brilliant businessman and a great mentor of mine. And he said, "You know, what are you doing?" And I said, "You know, I'm doing these two shows. I'm really happy. I had the kids. Everything's good." And he said, "Well, you know, I mean, what are you gonna do? " <laugh> Like, "I don't know. Was feeling pretty good." He said, "Well, I have an idea for you and have you ever heard of a man named Arnon Milchan?" I said, "Well, I have read about him." And he said, "Well, we are making a deal with him." Nobody knows it. He's at Warner Brothers now. Right. But he's gonna come here and he wants to start a television company, and I think you would be a good person for him to meet.

(35:47):

So I'm like, "Well, I just left Sandy."

Kevin Goetz (35:50):

Do I wanna get into this again? 

Gail Berman (35:51):

Except it was on the Fox lot. And that will come up because when I finally do meet him, he says, "Well, we're on the Warner Brothers lot." I go, "No, can't do it. If you let me start it at Buffy, if you literally let me start it at my offices, I'll do it, but not if I have to go to Warner Brothers. No way." So I have this interview and I go to meet him. We have a really nice meeting and then I don't hear anything. I mean, literally I hear nothing and because the company's gonna be 50% owned by Fox and 50% owned by New Regency, I have to meet a man named David Grant who's working for Fox. It's a dual reporting structure, not so easy, but I have these two interviews, I don't hear a word. I'm like, okay. I guess they didn't like me. They're looking for something, not me.

Kevin Goetz (36:46):

And you had the perfect situation, so- And

*Gail Berman (36:47):

I was really- No harm, no foul. I was way okay with where I was. No harm no foul. No harm, no foul. I gave it a whirl. And one morning, I'm up getting my kids ready to have breakfast and me ready to go to the warehouses, and I get a call in my home. I pick up the phone, hello, hold on for Mr. Milchan. He gets on the phone, he's in Israel, and somebody's in Paris, and Chernin is here, and David Grant is there. It's all these guys saying, "Hey, you got the job." And I'm like, "What y-" Like, I, it's been so long. <laugh> Anyway, I do accept the job, and I start this company for our nine called Regency Television, and I do start it in the warehouses at Buffy, and eventually I will take that to the Fox Lot, because it gets too big to be in my basement offices at Buffy.

(37:45):

And this is where we will do Malcolm in the Middle, Rosswell, the Bernie Mac Show. And so the two and a half years that I'm there, it's an unbelievable run. I mean, no one has a run like this. Everything I touched was fantastic and would go the distance. And then I got another one of those calls, and this time it was from Peter Chernin directly to me, and he said, "I want you to come to the network to run the network." And that's how that happened.

Kevin Goetz (38:20):

What were you thinking when you got the call?

Gail Berman (38:22):

I think I was a little bit shaky. I actually literally said to him, "Oh, Arnon will never let me go. " And he goes, "You don't have to worry about Arnon- I'll take care of Arnon." And I was like, "Oh, well, okay." He goes, "But you have to make sure that when we all get together, it's a big surprise." So I said, "Okay." And a few days later, we all get together and I'm super surprised and I go to the network and they'd had a new president every 18 months.

Kevin Goetz (38:58):

How long were you at the network?

Gail Berman (38:59):

I was there for, I think, five and a half years.

Kevin Goetz (39:02):

Wow. I just wanna jump in and say one thing about Peter Chernin. And I got one of those similar calls, not calls, but I saw him at a screening, and he comes up to me, and this is about 30 years ago, and he said to me, "What are you doing?" And I said, "What do you mean?" What do you mean? What, what do you wanna do? And I said, "A lot of things." He says, "Well, come see me. " And I went to see him, and he said, "Would you have any interest in being an executive?" Mm. Or would you ... And I said, "N I'd like to produce, and I'd love a first look deal here, and blah." And then he introduced me to, who I already knew, it was Tom Jacobson and Laura Ziskin, and Chris Meledandri had the family division, and one other person who was running Searchlight. He did that, and I never forgot it, and I always loved him for it.

Gail Berman (39:52):

Well, he's a remarkable man, and he is, I think, the smartest executive I've ever worked for or I've ever known.

Kevin Goetz (40:04):

He's also extraordinarily loyal.

Gail Berman (40:06):

He was very loyal to me till I left.

Kevin Goetz (40:09):

Well, let's talk about you leaving. Because who wouldn't be upset when you're so gifted? You were there how many years again?

Gail Berman (40:16):

Five and a half years.

Kevin Goetz (40:17):

Five and a half years, which is a hugely long run for a television network head.

Gail Berman (40:23):

And I had brought the network to number one.

Kevin Goetz (40:25):

And you get recruited by Paramount Pictures by whom?

Gail Berman (40:28):

I'd gotten a call the year earlier from Sherry when Sherry was still there, and it was lovely, lovely call. Have I ever thought about it? And I said, I have no-

Kevin Goetz (40:39):

'Cause she knew she was retiring.

Gail Berman (40:41):

Yeah. I don't know if she saw me in that role or she saw me in another role, but I basically said I'm under contract and there's just no way that is ever gonna happen. But I see- Is

Kevin Goetz (40:50):

That when you started your friendship with her?

Gail Berman (40:51):

Super flattered. Well, I actually started my friendship with her because my lawyer, Nancy Rose, made me go to one of those women's functions. Wow. And she said to me, "Get three numbers from three women and follow up and have a lunch with three women." And I was like, "Okay, I'll do that. "

Kevin Goetz (41:13):

And who were the three?

Gail Berman (41:14):

And one of them was Carol Black, one of them was Sherry Lansing, and the third was the woman who was then head of PBS. <laugh> I never actually had the lunch with her. <laugh> But Carol Black- I love it. ... and Sherry Lansing. And it was wonderful.

Kevin Goetz (41:31):

Sherry introduced the two of us.

Gail Berman (41:33):

That's right.

Kevin Goetz (41:34):

Sherry said to me, "You don't know Gail Berman?" I said, "No, but I'd like to. " She goes, "Oh, honey, it done." And she made a shitach.

Gail Berman (41:41):

She made a shitach. Well, I got this call from her. It was lovely. And so when it came back around the second time, and I'll tell you how that happened, I thought, hmm, maybe the universe is trying to tell me something. I'm not having really big success with my new contract negotiation. It's been going on a long time. They don't seem to want to pay me what I think my value is. At first, I wasn't really thinking of ever leaving. I was sort of thinking, "Oh, well, this will be good leverage or whatever." But anyway, it became like a runaway train. I got a visit from my friend Lloyd Braun and he said, "Let's have lunch." And he came over to the lot and we had lunch on the lot and he had just gone to Yahoo and I thought maybe he's coming to see me about going to Yahoo.

(42:31):

And he said, "No, that's not why I'm here. I'm here because my friend Brad Gray has asked me to come and talk to you about coming to Paramount." And that was really from left field. I knew Brad a little bit, not a lot, knew Bernie very well.

Kevin Goetz (42:48):

That would be Brad Gray and Bernie Brillstein.

Gail Berman (42:51):

I love Bernie Brillstein and I was like, "Whoa, this is a big surprise." And I said, "Well, I'll definitely think about it. " And he said, "Well, Brad's gonna call you. " And I said, "Well, yeah, I'd be interested in talking to him. Sure."

Kevin Goetz (43:08):

Never give up a job you weren't offered.

Gail Berman (43:10):

Exactly. And, you know, I don't have any regrets about anything in my career. I've learned from every single thing I've done and I've done some great things and I've done some stupid things and I think that's what makes it fair.

Kevin Goetz (43:25):

You've done far many more great things and that's always the key to great success. But of course you're gonna have failure along the way. 

Gail Berman (43:32):

Well, yeah. And when it came out and it broke in a way it wasn't supposed to break, all the things that started off on the wrong foot, um, happened.

Kevin Goetz (43:44):

Plus for Chernin and for Fox negotiations.

Gail Berman (43:46):

There was a lot of anger there.

Kevin Goetz (43:49):

Yeah, Of course.

Gail Berman (43:50):

I don't think they saw that coming. And I told Peter and he was like, "Okay, what do we have to do to ... " I go, "No, I've accepted the job." And it was, it was a big deal.

Kevin Goetz (44:05):

Of course it was.

Gail Berman (44:06):

Leaving Fox at that time was a big deal. A TV girl going to Paramount was like, you'd think that they had found somebody who was building cars like television going to Paramount, except for the people who had actually done that, like Michael Eisner, who sent me a very nice note going, "Don't listen to all of this. This is, this is- Right,

Kevin Goetz (44:29):

Because there's been a lot of-

Gail Berman (44:31):

A lot of TV people have made this.

Kevin Goetz (44:32):

Who'd never made it in the movie business.

Gail Berman (44:34):

But no women. And Brandon had had a bad run to- 

Kevin Goetz (44:39):

It was a risky move.

Gail Berman (44:40):

Yeah.

Kevin Goetz (44:40):

It was a ballsy move.

Gail Berman (44:41):

I didn't realize how risky it actually was, to be honest with you.

Kevin Goetz (44:45):

Wow. What does that mean for you?

Gail Berman (44:47):

I was excited at the opportunity to do something new and I was very optimistic about it. At the time, the companies were splitting. Viacom was splitting. So there was Paramount Pictures and then there was CBS. And Les Moonves, who's a good friend of mine, called me up and said to me, "You're on the wrong side of this split. I need you to know that. " And that was very telling about what would happen. But he would come to help me a little bit later on when I called him about Star Trek, which was really my, I would say of the two years that I was at Paramount was the thing that was the best-

Kevin Goetz (45:32):

You relaunched the franchise?

Gail Berman (45:33):

I relaunched it. I got it back from CBS and he would never have given it to Brad. May Brad rest in peace or Tom Freston. There was no love lost. I asked him for it. I explained why he wasn't gonna be putting it on for the next few years. It was ending its run on UPN. I said, "I need a favor really badly. I have nothing here." And he said, "Okay, I will give you 18 months from the time we get off this call to put it in production." I go, "Left, nothing in the movie business works like that. " He goes, "Take it or leave it. " I go, "I'll take it. " And that is how Star Trek came back to the Paramount side of the company.

Kevin Goetz (46:17):

You couldn't make errors. You had to hire the right people right out of that gate.

Gail Berman (46:21):

And of course, where did I go? I went to the TV people. I went to JJ, Damon Lindelof. That's who I went to, and I knew they could work fast. And-

Kevin Goetz (46:32):

So smart.

Gail Berman (46:33):

... that is how that happened.

Kevin Goetz (46:35):

Now, why, after you were there for only, I wanna say, a couple of months, you shared this with me that you basically called your attorney and said, "Get me out of this. "

Gail Berman (46:44):

12 weeks. I called my attorney in New York.

Kevin Goetz (46:48):

What happened?

*Gail Berman (46:49):

Well, I was hired to run Paramount Pictures, MTV films, Nickelodeon films. That was the job. Sure. Unfortunately, they didn't want to tell the people at MTV or Nickelodeon. Right. That's what I was hired to do. So-

Kevin Goetz (47:09):

You got a resistance everywhere you went.

Gail Berman (47:11):

Every day, everything. So it was a no-win. Brad Gray said something to me, he said, "You know, you have to sign these people using a manager's term." Sure. "You have to sign them."

Kevin Goetz (47:23):

You gotta earn their trust.

Gail Berman (47:25):

Right. And while that's not exactly what I thought I was there to do, I did try to do that. I did. I took it to heart, what he said, that these were people who understood their brands inside and out. They needed to be courted properly by me. Yeah. And we started a relationship and tried to figure our way through it. I wouldn't say it was particularly successful, but I wound up liking them. I understood a lot better that Judy and Van and Sema eventually wasn't her in the beginning, but they were protectors of their brands. So nobody was particularly happy I was there. Most of all, me, maybe. And-

Kevin Goetz (48:15):

And it took you two years to extricate yourself.

Gail Berman (48:17):

Yes, it did. It took me two years to extract.

Kevin Goetz (48:19):

And the two worst two years of your professional career, I think, because you were just not happy.

Gail Berman (48:24):

I was very unhappy, which I'd never been before in any of my work. I felt sick in the morning getting up and going to work. And I felt like no matter what I did, if I went left, everybody was going right. If I went right, everyone was going left. And what I should have done, and I didn't do this because actually Tom Freston asked me not to do this, I should have let people go when I arrived.

Kevin Goetz (48:52):

Everyone says that you need your own people.

Gail Berman (48:55):

I didn't do that. And I thought, "Okay, well, I'm just gonna work hard with this group."

Kevin Goetz (49:00):

Is there anyone from that regime that you have kept in close with Karen Rosenfelt?

Gail Berman (49:05):

I remember going to her office to see her. I thought, "Maybe I can get something going with Karen." I did get something going with Jason Blum. We put him in the horror business, and so that was kind of great to see what happened with that.

Kevin Goetz (49:19):

That was during the paranormal activity?

Gail Berman (49:21):

Yeah. Paranormal activity came out of my time there. It came out after me, but-

Kevin Goetz (49:27):

Yeah, yeah, I remember.

Gail Berman (49:28):

Anyway, it was really tough. I wasn't particularly well liked. I just couldn't get it right. Actually, like is not the right word.

Kevin Goetz (49:38):

What's the right word?

Gail Berman (49:39):

I wasn't respected there. Huh. And that was very troubling to me because you can't really get a job done unless people respect you.

Kevin Goetz (49:48):

You know, it's funny because from an outside standpoint, because I was testing your movies, I felt people absolutely respected you, but to who cares what I think, it's the perception that you felt.

Gail Berman (49:59):

That was the perception I had.

Kevin Goetz (50:01):

Now, when you left, it's when I first met you after the fact. I mean, we met because I'd done all your testing. Right. But we didn't know each other. And I remember meeting you for lunch when you launched the Jackal Group and you literally said to me, "This is the happiest I have ever been in my career." Was that true?

Gail Berman (50:20):

Well, I think it was. I think because I got the opportunity to do really whatever I wanted to do. If I wanted to work in film, if I wanted to work in digital, I could work in digital. If I wanted to work in television, I could. And obviously the theater, which is what Fox allowed me to tap back into. And- And

Kevin Goetz (50:42):

Did you?

*Gail Berman (50:43):

That's when I got the rights to the musical Black Swan, which is opening at ART in May of 2026 at the American Repertorial Theater at Harvard. That's the stop with an intent to go to New York. Yeah, Darren Aronovski and Kevin McCollum and Scott Frankel are my partners.

Kevin Goetz (51:02):

They are?

Gail Berman (51:03):

Yeah.

Kevin Goetz (51:04):

You remember I worked on that movie.

Gail Berman (51:05):

I don't know that I knew that, but I always think that you work on every movie,

Kevin Goetz (51:10):

Kevin. So- Well, I gotta tell you, that was a particularly great experience because it never tested well. But I remember going up to Nancy Utley after the first screening and Steve Galula and saying, "You guys, there's something majorly special here and Claudia." And I said, "This is something, like, really intense." Remember, there was no special effects. No. She didn't have the wings or the hangs or ... And it was just, I thought, a work of art, and clearly I was right.

Gail Berman (51:37):

And we've been developing it for several years, and it's very exciting now. It's gonna happen, so we're all excited to do it.

Kevin Goetz (51:44):

You and my girlfriend, Paula Wagner-

Gail Berman (51:46):

Yeah, Paula's doing it.

Kevin Goetz (51:48):

I know. She's doing high noon in London now. Gail, we could talk forever, and you really are somebody that I look up to enormously, and somebody who has done such service and good for our business, and I thank you on behalf of so many of us. If there's a word for a mensch- <laugh> ... For a woman, you are the mensch of women.

Gail Berman (52:12):

And you are a mensch and a seer, and that's something really special. Somebody who understood how to get butts in seats, and that is so hard to do, and I salute you for an incredible career doing that.

Kevin Goetz (52:30):

Thank you. To our listeners, I hope you enjoy this conversation. For more insights into filmmaking, audience testing, and the business of Hollywood, I invite you to check out my books, Audienceology, and How to Score in Hollywood at Amazon, or through my website at KevinGoetz360.com. You can also follow me on my social media. Next time on Don't Kill the Messenger, I welcome the prolific and Academy Award winning producer, Chuck Roven. Until then, I'm Kevin Goetz, and to you, our listeners, I appreciate you being part of the movie making process. Your opinions matter.

Host: Kevin Goetz
Guest: Gail Berman
Producer: Kari Campano
Writers: Kevin Goetz, Darlene Hayman, and Kari Campano
Audio Engineer: Gary Forbes (DG Entertainment)