Podcast: Don't Kill the Messenger with Movie Research Expert Kevin Goetz
Guest: Charles “Chuck” Roven

Interview Transcript:

Announcer (00:03):

From script to screen, every film is brought to life by visionary creatives and executives, all sharing one mission to captivate the audience. Hosted by award-winning movie strategist Kevin Goetz, our podcast, Don't Kill the Messenger, offers a filmmaking masterclass through intimate conversations with Hollywood's most influential voices. And now, your host, Kevin Goetz.

Kevin Goetz (00:29):

In this business, great talent might get you in the door, but relentless hunger and passion are what keep you there. They push you to take risks, fight for movies, and stay relevant decade after decade in an industry that rarely forgives complacency. My guest today is a beacon of that tenacity. Chuck Roven is one of Hollywood's most respected producers and the co-founder of Atlas Entertainment, a company that has generated billions of dollars in revenue and worldwide critical acclaim. He has produced five of the 100 top-grossing films of all time, including Oppenheimer, for which he took home the Academy Award. His career has been built on bold, creative bets and movies that delivered. Chuck, welcome to my show. Happy to be here. I was just thinking because Mara Buxbaum was off to the side saying, how long have we known each other? And it's four decades.

Chuck Roven (01:37):

Yeah. At least <laugh>.

Kevin Goetz (01:39):

Well, I know when I arrived, it's been four decades since I arrived, and I don't think I knew you in Brooklyn or Jersey, but it's very possible <laugh>.

Chuck Roven (01:46):

I did make a movie in Jersey.

Kevin Goetz (01:48):

You did?

Chuck Roven (01:49):

Cadillac Man.

Kevin Goetz (01:51):

Who directed that movie?

Chuck Roven (01:52):

Roger Donaldson.

Kevin Goetz (01:53):

Mm-hmm

Chuck Roven (01:54):

<affirmative>. He shot a real car dealership and <laugh> the car dealer was exactly what you would imagine. And Robin Williams met the guy and he really ended up adopting some of the guy's technique. So I had made a deal with the guy to not only shoot there, right, but to be able to come back if I needed to reshoot. And we did need to do some reshooting. And so he says to me, well, you know that deal. Forget it. I'm charging you twice if you want to come back. Oh, a restructuring deal. The restructuring of the deal. So I said, what do you need? He said, I want you to gimme a cashier's check. And I said, no problem. So I give him a cashier's check. I called the bank, I got the cashier's check. I said, cancel that cashier's check. And what happened? I didn't pay him because he renegotiated because he, he reneged. 

Kevin Goetz (02:48):

That's just a douche move. I'm sorry. Exactly. You don't do that shit. You don't do it. Especially in Jersey, you know. Hey Chuck, so many people know a lot about your later work, particularly with Batman and so forth, but I knew you when you were hungrier. Tunnel vision, getting shit done. And I'd like to talk about the young Chuck. I'd like to know you are from Los Angeles. Tell me about your passion, your dreams. Your aspirations as a kid.

*Chuck Roven (03:22):

Well, I was fortunate. My dad was a Jewish immigrant who came over here in 1948. From where? From Czechoslovakia. And he was able to survive in a very interesting, unique way during World War II. But once the Russians came in and took over Checkoslavakia that I've had enough of outta here. And he started with a liquor store on Wilshire and La Brea. But ended up realizing that in 1948, 1949, real estate was amazing in California, particularly in Los Angeles. So he went into the real estate business and became quite successful, which allowed me to learn how to ride horses. <laugh>, because he would buy ranches and then subdivide them. Hello. Smart. He would call them Cinderella. Cinderella Home Cinderella. And what was a Cinderella? It was a home that was built in the San Fernando Valley in what used to be orange groves.

Kevin Goetz (04:24):

So they were like tract houses?

Chuck Roven (04:25):

Yeah, exactly. So he built developments really? He built developments and he would buy ranches, subdivide them into single family homes, multiple family homes, shopping center, stuff like that. But when he was getting the zoning, he would hire cowboys who would run cattle on it. And so I would go out there on the weekends and get extra money by riding horses and playing with the cattle <laugh>. Wow. The other thing that I did was surf. I didn't go to school very much. <laugh>, where did you live? I started on what you would call the Miracle Mile area.

Kevin Goetz (05:04):

So how long did it take you to get to the water?

Chuck Roven (05:07):

Oh, I would thumb a ride with a surfboard or I would take the bus with the surfboard.

Kevin Goetz (05:12):

And this is like in the late fifties, early sixties.

*Chuck Roven (05:15):

Yes, exactly. And then I decided, oh, okay. You know what? Between high school and college, I'm gonna take a year off and go surf in Hawaii. Were you that good? pretty good. I would load roofing trucks at night to pay for my ability to surf during the day. And a buddy of mine comes up to me and he goes, Hey, you know about this TV series called Hawaii Five-0 they're looking to pay surfers. I said, you're telling me they're gonna pay me to surf? That was the start.

Kevin Goetz (05:42):

So is it fair to say that your father came from nothing and built a formidable business in real estate? He did not come from nothing.

Chuck Roven (05:54):

He had a family that was successful in the distillery business in Czechoslovakia. He made this prune brandy called Slivoviz.

Kevin Goetz (06:04):

Wait a minute, I love slivoviz.

Chuck Roven (06:06):

Okay, <laugh>. That's powerful stuff. Powerful stuff that saved his life.

Kevin Goetz (06:10):

Okay, this is another program. My God. But your dad got out of the distillery business and ultimately did, which is now makes sense of why he had a liquor store. He had the liquor store. While he was doing though, 

Chuck Roven (06:25):

He started with the Liquor store and then he realized, oh wait a second. The government is now giving you federal home loan money and Veterans Administration money to go buy property and then savings and loans will loan you money to build on the property, 'cause that didn't happen in Europe. Mm-hmm

Kevin Goetz (06:46):

<affirmative>.

Chuck Roven (06:46):

Okay. So you could actually make money by borrowing money.

Kevin Goetz (06:50):

So wait a minute, this is all making sense now. So you pick this up.

Chuck Roven (06:54):

Yeah.

Kevin Goetz (06:55):

And this is a conversation that you could have about a movie you're financing right now.

*Chuck Roven (06:59):

Yeah. That's why I believe that a lot of people talk about vertical. I believe in horizontal because learning about this business, any business, okay, the dynamics of it will help you learn about things, particularly in the movie business or the content creation business. Because you have departments and you're dealing with construction, you're dealing with finance, you're dealing with negotiating deals with studios, which is real estate. There's all this.

Kevin Goetz (07:35):

Absolutely. You know what I call it, Chuck? Finding your and your and, meaning that just because you are a financeer doesn't mean you are not also creative. Doesn't mean you're also not this or this or this. And I tell a lot of parents now when they say, what about my kid still at home at 27? I said, don't flip out. I said, let them get a job here. It's not a jail sentence. And pick up what they're going to learn. I assure you that that learning will benefit exactly what they'll do next. Next. And that's your story. Yeah. You picked up all of these things. Fortunately yours was in the financing and sort of world of sort of real estate as a start.

Chuck Roven (08:15):

Yeah. Yeah.

Kevin Goetz (08:16):

Did you always love film?

Chuck Roven (08:17):

Oh yeah. Saturday, get on the bus, go to Hollywood. Which theater? The Chinese <laugh>. I love the Chinese. There was also Fairfax. I like the Fairfax.

Kevin Goetz (08:28):

Oh, it turned out later to be like indie films.

Chuck Roven (08:31):

Yeah.

Kevin Goetz (08:31):

But it was not, it was a mainstream. Oh yeah. What was your formidable movie that left an impression on you as a child?

*Chuck Roven (08:39):

I loved the action movies. I loved westerns. I loved John Ford's movies. I was very, very, very excited. If there was a western, I would go to it. So, which is why I wanted to ride horses and the guys who would lease my dad's property to run their cattle, they were also stuntmen for the Hollywood Westerns.

Kevin Goetz (09:03):

That makes total sense to me. Right. You know, RJ Wagner is a very dear friend of mine and my husband Neil, I'll be here a couple of weeks for his 96th birthday. Wow. But you know, RJ grew up in the LA that you're talking about. He grew up on the polo grounds of the Beverly Hills Hotel, which were truly polo grounds. Yes. And ride his horse right all around Los Angeles and has told me stories similar to what you're saying,

Chuck Roven (09:31):

Rodeo Drive used to be a bridal trail from Sunset to Santa Monica.

Kevin Goetz (09:37):

Did you own your own horses?

Chuck Roven (09:38):

No, not initially. I started owning horses later in life.

Kevin Goetz (09:44):

So you weren't a particularly good student, but you did go to UCLA, you got a degree in, if I remember economics?

Chuck Roven (09:51):

I got no degree. I started out in political science and economics for my dad spoken like a good Jewish boy. And then I told him I want to do movies. And he said, wait a second. It's not the ground. You can't touch it. What is that? And by that time we had moved into Beverly Hills and I became friendly, as did my dad with people in the entertainment business. Wasn't you like your best friend? Dean Martin, Dean Paul Martin was one of my closest friends in my twenties. Yeah.

Kevin Goetz (10:23):

You knew Desi Arnaz then.

Chuck Roven (10:25):

Yes, of course.

Kevin Goetz (10:25):

And do you remember my friend Gregory Crosby? No, I did not know that. Yeah, because Desi was his best man at his wedding. Oh, was he at his friends with Dino? So I figured y'all might have paddled around together.

Chuck Roven (10:34):

Well, Dino.

Kevin Goetz (10:36):

He went to The Daisy a lot.

Chuck Roven (10:36):

I know that. I went to the Daisy a lot too. Matter of fact, Ned Tanen, who used to run Universal, would bump into me at the Daisy and say, Roven, you wanna be in Hollywood? I am in Hollywood. Make me make you a deal for Hollywood,'cause I want to be in business with you.

Kevin Goetz (10:52):

Oh,

Chuck Roven (10:52):

Don't mess around with the Daisy. And but he was there. But he was there. And the Candy store, remember that?

Kevin Goetz (10:56):

I don't remember it, but I've heard of it. Of course I can speak chapter and verse about it 'cause of all the stories that people have told me. So you're through college now. You want to make movies? 

*Chuck Roven (11:09):

I made student films. So I had this argument with my dad and I won. And he kept trying to introduce me to people in the entertainment business who would convince me what a difficult business it was. Oh crap. Okay. And I said to him, finally, dad, I said, dad, they may tell me in these meetings that you pre-negotiate with them about how they're gonna talk to me, but they're in the business.

Kevin Goetz (11:32):

And also it's so like you so transparent. And it's probably, if you're like me, he's dangling a carrot in front of you going, I'll show you.

Chuck Roven (11:42):

Exactly. So I transferred over to SC, 'cause UCLA had this one movie thing and we'll tell you in 10 weeks whether or not you can go on and if we don't like your movie and we don't think you have any talent, you can be a film historian or a film critic, but you can't make any more movies here. So I said, well, I'm not good enough yet. So I ended up going to USC and my cousin was an associate director there. And he had a class called a director acts, which he would get directors who were students. They could be undergraduates, they could be doing their masters. And he would have them work with other directors to teach 'em how to work with actors.

Kevin Goetz (12:25):

Wow, that's smart.

Chuck Roven (12:26):

Really smart. Right? Yeah. And so I audited that class before I did any of my movies. And he, one day, one of the directors, his partner was, didn't show up. So they asked me if I'd come down and do the scene. And he offered me a movie and I did a student film that actually did very well. So I got into SC. Ah. To the film school? To the film school. Which was at that point in time in a bar.

Kevin Goetz (12:53):

So It wasn't the SC that we know now?

Chuck Roven (12:54):

Not now, no.

Kevin Goetz (12:55):

But they had a film program,

Chuck Roven (12:56):

But they had a really good film program. And I finished my student films and I was like a junior and I just said, I really just want to get a job.

Kevin Goetz (13:07):

Mm-hmm <affirmative>

*Chuck Roven (13:08):

On my third student film, which starred my best friend and my sister. I showed it to my dad and he had tears in his eyes when it was over and he said, I get it now. He did. Yeah. That's something. It's very something. Yeah. Was your mom around? Oh yeah. Very much so. We haven't mentioned her. She was she supportive? She was always supportive. She protected me a lot, 'cause my dad had a pretty strong temper, which sometimes I happened to show also.

Kevin Goetz (13:38):

Was he a good dad?

Chuck Roven (13:40):

He was a great one. And I loved him very much, also.

Kevin Goetz (13:42):

Yes.

Chuck Roven (13:43):

He was an amazing guy. And my mom was, she had more issues 'cause she had a lot of guilt for surviving. She lost a lot of family in the camps.

Kevin Goetz (13:55):

Oh boy. Yeah. I can relate.

Chuck Roven (13:57):

Yeah.

Kevin Goetz (13:57):

I want to talk about the temper. I've seen you lose your temper. And I have never thought it was unjustified. Well, thank you. And I never thought it was unfair 'cause I find you to be in French, we say Hamish or a mensch, you're that guy. But you're demanding as I am. And so I respect and appreciate that. But I don't think you would ever pick on an underdog for the sake of picking on anyone because you're having a bad day if someone's not doing their job. Yeah, I can. You may lose your shit sometimes. Yeah. Right? Mm-hmm <affirmative>. Did I characterize that correctly?

Chuck Roven (14:35):

I think so.

Kevin Goetz (14:36):

And I also don't think you have ever had that as a reputation that sticks with you. In other words, most people think Chuck Roven, they think successful, big, big movies gets shit done. I mean that's much more of moniker.

Chuck Roven (14:52):

Well that's nice. I like that reputation.

Kevin Goetz (14:54):

Yeah. So let's talk about your first association with someone that I worked with and was near and dear to my heart. Dawn Steel. So Dawn was your first wife, correct? Correct. And you have a daughter together? Rebecca? Yes. Who works at my company as a producer. And tell me what it was like meeting that force of nature called Dawn Steel.

Chuck Roven (15:18):

I was introduced to Dawn Steel by her closest friend, which was Linda Oakes. She was great, very, very close to Rebecca after Dawn passed. Mm. And Linda was working for Guber Peters. So when Dawn came into Hollywood, 'cause she was drafted into Hollywood by one of the high-end creative executives at Paramount

Kevin Goetz (15:45):

Because she was in designer toilet paper, <laugh>

Chuck Roven (15:49):

Dawn was the secretary for the owner of Hustler Magazine. And they had no consumer products division when she was his secretary.

Kevin Goetz (16:00):

So she had no entertainment experience.

Chuck Roven (16:02):

No entertainment experience. But she came to Larry Flynt and said, I have an idea. I think we should open up a consumer products division, which I would like to run. And I think the first idea would be to make the cock sock for the man who has everything.

Kevin Goetz (16:18):

Oh, I remember, I remember you telling me this. There were scotches,

Chuck Roven (16:23):

The Cock sock for the man who has everything and know to put it,

Kevin Goetz (16:28):

I mean, can you get any better?

Chuck Roven (16:30):

And it's sold out. Wow. So she went merch. Merch. Exactly. So that was her first foray. That was her first foray. She went to Larry and said, I want a piece of the action. And he said no. So she left and she opened a company called Oh Dawn. Oh Dawn. Like OH Dawn.

Kevin Goetz (16:53):

Oh yes. <laugh> with an exclamation.

Chuck Roven (16:54):

Yes. Oh Dawn. Exactly. Great. And she, without getting the rights to it, created Gucci toilet paper.

Kevin Goetz (17:04):

Well, she didn't have the partnership with Gucci.

Chuck Roven (17:07):

Did not have the partnership with Gucci.

Kevin Goetz (17:08):

Wiping your ass with Gucci. Jesus. Okay. But kind of genius man. And that sold out.

Chuck Roven (17:15):

Well that sold out. But then she got the call, I think you better stop doing this 'cause you don't have the rights. And we don't. Did she stop doing it Gucci's name on toilet paper? Did she stop? She did. Okay. And that's when she got the call from Paramount to come over and work in their consumer products division. Oh. So that's how she got that job.

Kevin Goetz (17:38):

And that was her first foray into motion

Chuck Roven (17:40):

Into the entertainment. Had you known her then? No. No I did not. When did you meet? She became friendly and she was so good at what she did. She came up with things like Star Trek, the ashtray.

Kevin Goetz (17:54):

Like that

Chuck Roven (17:55):

A lot more calmer than the cock sock, or the penis plant.

Kevin Goetz (18:00):

That was another one.

Chuck Roven (18:01):

That was another one. The penis plant? Yeah, the penis plant. What was the penis plant?

Kevin Goetz (18:06):

I can't let that one go, Chuck. Sorry.

Chuck Roven (18:08):

<laugh>. What did that do? It it, it was a plant. It looked like a penis. 

Kevin Goetz (18:14):

A plant that looked like a penis.

Chuck Roven (18:15):

Yes. A real plant. A real plant that looked like a penis. Yes.

Kevin Goetz (18:18):

Wow.

Chuck Roven (18:19):

Oh God. These memories. So she was so good at what she was doing in the merchandising department. They said, you know what? You have these great ideas. Why don't you try becoming a creative executive? So she did. And being the aggressor that she was, oh boy. She used to scare the shit outta me. Many people. Yeah. She had quite the mouth. Oh boy. So she starts to work for Don Simpson at Paramount. She's been very friendly with him. Don Simpson introduces her to Linda Oakes and Linda Oakes is working for Guber Peters. And she goes to Dawn and gives her this script called Flash Dance. And that was Dawn's first production executive movie at Paramount.

Kevin Goetz (19:08):

That worked out well. <laugh>. And listen, from that time she ended up becoming the president of production at Paramount. Correct. How long did that trajectory take?

Chuck Roven (19:16):

I would say about three years, four years.

Kevin Goetz (19:20):

And then you met her during that time?

Chuck Roven (19:22):

I met her when she had just become the president of production.

Kevin Goetz (19:27):

Did you make any movies with her?

*Chuck Roven (19:29):

No. I had one movie that was in development there, but that was when Ned Tanein had come there. I see. And I had, I had this whole issue with Ned Tanen when he was at Universal. You know, he had not the greatest reputation for his creative friendships. You know, that whole thing about American Graffiti where he walked out of the screening and said, this is a bad movie and I don't know how I could have given you the money. And Coppola said, well here's a check for the movie. Is that a real story? That's a real story. Wow. Did they ever rectify, I wonder? I don't think they ever talked. I don't know for sure. And George Lucas never talked to him because that's, he'd said it to George Lucas. Okay. Because that was, that was American Graffiti directed. Absolutely. Right. And I had this whole experience with Ned before he came to Paramount at Universal. I didn't option it. I made a 90-day escrow deal. They put the rights to Dick Tracy in escrow for 90 days, telling both the Chicago Tribune and Chester Gould's lawyer that I needed 90 days to check, 'cause Dick Tracy was so old I needed to check the title for 90 days.

Kevin Goetz (20:48):

So Smart. Why don't we do that today, <laugh>? I dunno. Instead you have to get six month option to 18 month option and six months just spent just finding out the terms of the deal. The option deal. Yeah. So it's kind of a genius idea to reinstate, you know,

*Chuck Roven (21:01):

We could try, you know, if it took long enough to clear the title, you would do that. Sure. So in those 90 days, I wrote a script. You wrote a script with two other guys. Uhhuh <affirmative> sold it to Ned, you know, reminded him about the Daisy. Oh, the Daisy <laugh>. And then nothing happened with the movie except that Chester Gould's lawyer was so pissed that even though I was still in escrow, he sold the rights on option to another producer. And Ned made me do a shotgun wedding with that producer. I went along with it. I had already set up a project at Paramount and I was working with Harold Becker on that project and Al Pacino. But the movie never got made.

Kevin Goetz (21:46):

Mm. He was another one that scared me. Who? I was an actor when a

Chuck Roven (21:51):

Oh, you were?

Kevin Goetz (21:52):

Oh yeah. As a kid. And he directed a Coke commercial and he was screaming at the crew. Becker. Mm-hmm <affirmative> He terrified me.

Chuck Roven (21:58):

 I thought he was very talented man. And I wish that we were able to make the movie that we were trying to make.

Kevin Goetz (22:05):

So when did you finally ask Dawn out?

Chuck Roven (22:07):

She had just been made head of production. So she might have been done, it might've been one of the Tom Cruise movies. It could have been. Dawn had already left and was partnered with Bruckheimer. And Katzenberg was running production. Katzenberg had just left. When Diller went to Fox,

Kevin Goetz (22:26):

That was an insane thing.

*Chuck Roven (22:27):

The Killer Door is all five to eight years. Right. They all went to thing. And so they brought Ned over and they boosted Dawn into president production and she kept knocking it out of the park to the point where all the magazines would say Most powerful woman in Hollywood. And Ned was getting very jealous. So Linda introduced us at this premiere and I asked her out. And it was a very fast courtship. And we got married. And then I had a big failure after my first movie was successful. It wasn't successful money-wise, but it was really highly acclaimed, which was Heart Like a Wheel. But my second movie, which was Made in USA, had a completely disastrous test screening. And Dawn had just become president of production. And I had asked her if I could use their theater and it's 300 seat theater. And by the time the movie was over, there was about 50 people left.

Kevin Goetz (23:29):

And by the way, if it's on a studio a lot

Chuck Roven (23:32):

Yeah, I know. 

Kevin Goetz (23:32):

That’s worse. Worse. It's worse. I people don't wanna leave a lot. <laugh> love how we can laugh about these things later. At the time you were like, my life's over. Oh yeah, yeah. And she was not happy. She thought I had embarrassed her. I was just gonna ask you a question. This is really where I was going. What's it like when you have a woman, a wife in your life, who is going almost to the pinnacle of her career? Meaning, and she's young and you are struggling. Couldn't have been easy. 

Chuck Roven (24:04):

That was probably my lowest point. I appreciate the honesty and I was taken aback. 'cause I was totally embarrassed.

Kevin Goetz (24:13):

And she thought you embarrassed her.

Chuck Roven (24:15):

She didn't go, honey, don't worry about it. <laugh>. Okay. That did not come outta her mouth. No, it came outta her mouth. Listen, how dare you come to my lot and exhibit that. But we got through it. Of course, I was about to say, as the most normal couples do. But you guys were not a normal couple. And then Rebecca came, and when Dawn left to go on maternity leave, Ned used it as an excuse to get rid of her.

Kevin Goetz (24:43):

And hence Columbia came a knocking. Yeah. When we come back, I want to talk about the rise of Chuck Roven because I venture to say that if Dawn were alive today, she would say, well, you redeemed yourself from that episode. <laugh>. I cannot believe my husband won the Academy Award. We'll be back in a moment. Listeners, the Motion Picture Television Fund is a nonprofit charitable organization that supports working and retired members of the entertainment community. This wonderfully run organization offers assistance for living and aging with dignity and purpose in the areas of health and social services, including temporary financial assistance, case management, and residential living. And has been a crucial lifeline to thousands during and beyond critical times that our industry continues to experience. To learn more, visit mptf.com. Please join me in helping others in our industry during times of need. There are so many ways to offer support and get involved. Thank you.

(26:02):

We're back with the extraordinary Chuck Roven. Chuck. You know, I always view you as the consummate producer, the guy who does everything from the twinkle in the eye of the idea, to the development, to the actual doing of the work. You're on set every day. I can attest the entire post-production process and then involved in the marketing and in the release of the movie. I cannot name that many producers who have that kind of involvement. So to me, you're sort of a hero when it comes to the definition of a producer. And you've been awarded the PGA award for that acknowledgement. I mean, others have seen it with me coming back from break. I can't help think, my God, the successes that you have had. When did you feel that you came into your own?

Chuck Roven (26:53):

Actually, Dawn was still around then. I developed a movie called 12 Monkeys.

Kevin Goetz (27:01):

Brad Pitt,

*Chuck Roven (27:02):

Brad Pitt, and Bruce Willis. And I had been given a very famous movie. This is around the 12 Monkeys Time. Well, 12 Monkeys was based on a documentary film called le Jetee, which means the runway in French. And the guy who made the movie was a documentary filmmaker, but he shot it live action and he hated what he did. So he turned it into a series of stills. Oh. And had one live action moment, which was the young Cole character, which was ultimately played by Bruce Willis as an older man. And he in an airport runway, sees himself as Bruce Willis gets shot. That's the end of Le Jetee. And that is also in many ways the end of 12 Monkeys. And I flew to Paris to meet with that filmmaker and he trusted me. So I optioned the rights and I went to David and Janet Peoples the great screenwriters, and they delivered what they call 12 Monkeys to me. And I was looking for who the right director could be. Dawn had had this horrible experience with Terry Gilliam on Baron Munchhausen, and she had convinced Terry to recut the movie in order to, she promised him that she'd get it wide released and she wasn't able to deliver on that promise. So they fought. Now I had to come back.

Kevin Goetz (28:46):

It was an expensive art film if I recall.

Chuck Roven (28:48):

Yes it was. But brilliant. 

Kevin Goetz (28:50):

And we were in Long Island testing that. I remember that screening.

Chuck Roven (28:51):

She was pissed. So I sent the script to Terry, he came back and he said, I love this, I want to do it. And I said, well, you need to know something. And he said, what? I said, my wife is Dawn Steel

Kevin Goetz (29:08):

<laugh>.

Chuck Roven (29:10):

And I don't know how well you know Terry, but he's got this cackle. I don't know him. Well, he's got this cackle of a laugh. Okay. <laugh>. I like that. And so he, he says, you know, Chuck, this is just another proof that there is no bridge you could burn in Hollywood. Oh, <laugh>,

Kevin Goetz (29:30):

Sure. I'm okay with that. I'm okay. Well, she wasn't involved in it though, so it just, but yeah, no,

*Chuck Roven (29:35):

She was just pissed at me. You know, you'd have to hear about it. That was the second time she got pissed at me, <laugh>. But that movie came out. It was huge. It was huge. Right. It cost 30 million bucks and the worldwide growth was 180 million. And I put together, again using my business acumen, taught to me by my dad and then my brother to create a consortium of independent production companies that were distribution companies. Oh. So Universal didn't trust Terry Gilliam to make a $32 million movie, which is what 12 Monkey's gonna be. So they said, could I bring in some independent money? So I went to what was then Polygram in the BBC for the uk. And then I went to TeleMunchen, which was German. German. And I went to So Shaku, which was Japan.

Kevin Goetz (30:34):

Listeners, you must take note of how he is now piecing together. He's not, depending on the fact that he's saying we're not gonna put the entire investment and he's gonna now almost deficit finance this movie by banking your receivables, if you will, through foreign.

Chuck Roven (30:53):

Yeah, exactly. But I made them partners. 

Kevin Goetz (30:56):

Partners, Even Smarter <laugh>,

Chuck Roven (30:58):

I said, you're not just going to get your territory. You're gonna get a piece of what Universal's gonna distribute in the other territory. 

Kevin Goetz (31:05):

I'm just curious, What did Universal put in of the 32? 16. See half of it. Yeah. You got 'em to do that. Yeah. And who covered the marketing? Every territory covered their own marketing. Oh wow. So Universal was only expected to cover the domestic?

Chuck Roven (31:19):

No, those different partners got their territory and they got a piece of universal opening in the non-partner territories. So Australia was a non-partner territory. So Universal distributed in Australia.

Kevin Goetz (31:35):

This is a cool construct. Had it been done before in that way? Really smart, Chuck.

Chuck Roven (31:41):

I did it together with this guy Gary Levinson, who had been a foreign sales guy.

Kevin Goetz (31:46):

Mm-hmm

Chuck Roven (31:46):

<affirmative>. Mm-hmm <affirmative> And we're still making money from the receivables of that movie. 

Kevin Goetz (31:51):

We could talk for hours. So I'm gonna cut to the chase and I'm gonna mention a few filmmakers with whom you've forged pretty strong relationships with and have done more than one movie. Let's start with David O. Russell.

*Chuck Roven (32:06):

I've made two great movies with David Russell. One is Three Kings and one is American Hustle. And I would love to make a third.

Kevin Goetz (32:13):

He's a particular personality, definitely a singular filmmaker. I might call him brilliant.

Chuck Roven (32:21):

I think he's pretty extraordinary. Those two movies I think were great movies. But they were great movies. I think about Silver Lining Playbook, another great movie that I had nothing to do with that he did the screenplay.

Kevin Goetz (32:34):

Why did you get involved in those? But you weren't involved in like Silver Linings Playbook for, did you develop American Hustle? Did you develop

Chuck Roven (32:42):

I developed

Kevin Goetz (32:42):

Three Kings?

Chuck Roven (32:43):

I did not develop Three Kings. Three Kings was done at Warner Brothers.

Kevin Goetz (32:50):

And you were invited to the party?

*Chuck Roven (32:52):

I had made some pretty good movies at Warner Brothers. The biggest hit that I had after 12 Monkeys was City of Angels. And I combined both making that movie and doing an amazing soundtrack because I was also went into the music business with Bob Cavallo.

Kevin Goetz (33:14):

He formed a company with Bob Cavallo, which ultimately brought Dawn Steel in. That's right. Dawn Steel Productions. Right? Yeah. And then it became Atlas, correct? Yeah. I do my research.

Chuck Roven (33:24):

Good one.

Kevin Goetz (33:25):

<laugh>.

Chuck Roven (33:26):

So we had Atlas Third Rail, which was our management company and our record company. And City of Angel soundtrack was the biggest record of the year. That's insane. Not just the soundtrack. That's insane. So we broke the Goo Goo Dolls on that in that movie. And Alanis Morissette got a Grammy for Uninvited. I think we went three Grammys on that record. So by being able to do that, I was asked to go to the three Kings party. And the good news was David and I got along really well and we worked on the movie Witt Thomas, were the producers

Kevin Goetz (34:11):

From television.

Chuck Roven (34:12):

Yes. But they really weren't movie guys. And I had gone to grammar school with Tony Thomas.

Kevin Goetz (34:19):

Let me move on to DC. Okay. Because you had a strong association with Suicide Squad, right?

Chuck Roven (34:28):

Yes. I was asked to that party as well. 

Kevin Goetz (34:32):

So what does that say about you, my friend? For a producer in this town, to be invited to be a producer on something is probably one of the rarest, most affirming things that can happen. Because producers generate material. They're a quote-unquote dime a dozen, but there ain't a lot of Chuck Rovens. And so for you to get that call to join this party and that party has to be a bit of a head trip.

*Chuck Roven (35:02):

I'm not gonna deny that it doesn't make me happy. It doesn't make me very happy. And I've been blessed to work not only with incredibly talented guys like David Russell and you know, and obviously I think one of the all time greats, Chris and Emma.

Kevin Goetz (35:19):

So can we go to Chris and Emma?

Chuck Roven (35:20):

Yeah.

Kevin Goetz (35:21):

Chris Nolan. Why is he a household name at this point? Well, because why is he the biggest single brand, maybe other than Steven Spielberg and Jim Cameron? There are so few filmmakers that can be a floating head on a one sheet.

*Chuck Roven (35:37):

Yeah, that's true. He's just that brilliant. And he knows every aspect of making movies and writing scripts and he cares about every aspect. And also has a great partner in Emma who's a great producer as well.

Kevin Goetz (35:55):

Why is she a great producer?

Chuck Roven (35:56):

Because she engages <laugh>. Okay. And they don't always agree <laugh>, which is great. And by the way, it's a subjective business, isn't it? You can't always agree.

Kevin Goetz (36:05):

I can't imagine a healthy creative relationship without good civic discourse. Exactly. You can't. Otherwise it's just like one's enabling the other.

Chuck Roven (36:18):

So Jeff Robinov was the one who called me to do Three Kings. And Jeff Robinov was the one who called me to do Batman Begins.

Kevin Goetz (36:30):

Call out to Jeff.

*Chuck Roven (36:32):

Yeah. And then I got a call from Dan Aloni, who was at that time, who represented Chris. He represents him still. And I had done a movie with another Dan Aloni client, which was Scooby-Doo. And Scooby Doo was a nine digit movie. And Chris's biggest movie had been Insomnia, which was 30 million. Right. Just sophomore effort after Memento. Correct. And I think Chris and Emma had not done a studio. Makes all the sense in the world. And the studio said, oh, well Chuck produced Scooby-Doo, which I developed. And it was a hit, remember it came out on the same day as the MattDamon Bourne movie. Oh, <laugh>. But we beat him, which I always kid Matt about. 

Kevin Goetz (37:26):

Did you get a Call to get involved in Oppenheimer?

*Chuck Roven (37:29):

No, I brought Oppenheimer to Chris.

Kevin Goetz (37:31):

Did you really? Yeah. What'd you say to him?

Chuck Roven (37:33):

This was after the whole fiasco that happened with Tenet. Jason Kilar was brought in who was not a very wise choice, but in my opinion, Jason Kilar destroyed a 22 year relationship that Chris and Emma have with Warner.

Kevin Goetz (37:51):

I kind of looked up to him because he had to do what he had to do at the time because people weren't going to the theaters.

Chuck Roven (37:59):

Yeah, but you need to understand Please. Okay. Tenant kept moving 'cause of COVID. Okay, how many theaters were gonna be open? Are we gonna do simultaneous release? And Tenet ended up opening for a very short period of time, theatrically before it was pulled off to go streaming.

Kevin Goetz (38:16):

It did. Yes.

Chuck Roven (38:18):

And the next movie on the docket with Wonder Woman 84. So I had this whole huge meeting with Jason and Toby, Gal, Patty Jenkins, myself. And the conversation was, are we going to move like Top Gun Maverick did?

Kevin Goetz (38:45):

Mm-hmm <affirmative>. Mm-hmm

Chuck Roven (38:47):

<affirmative>. Or are we going to go simultaneous release? Jason said, it's gonna be a year before we come back to this movie if we move it. And Patty said, I don't wanna wait a year. I was on the fence. But my big question was, I need to understand if we're gonna do simultaneous release, is it gonna be the whole slate or is it gonna be one movie depending on what the movie is? And in that meeting, Jason said, no, I would never do simultaneous release on our tent poles. We're going to deal with it one movie at a time and see what's Warren did. And I said, okay, fine. I'm in. Yeah. Two weeks later he announced the whole slate. I see. As a simultaneous release.

Kevin Goetz (39:31):

Yeah. I can understand your feelings a hundred percent.

Chuck Roven (39:34):

And I had a movie coming out that James Gunn directed called Suicide Squad.

Kevin Goetz (39:40):

Oh, you were so ingrained and so pregnant with Warner Brothers on so many movies at that time. Yes. And then you were at the Academy Awards and the winner is Oppenheimer, Christopher Nolan, Emma Thomas and Chuck, Chuck Roven, Charles Roven, I think they said Charles. Yeah. You go up there. What's it like?

Chuck Roven (40:00):

First of all, the whole night was insane. Wonderful.

Kevin Goetz (40:04):

You knew you were gonna win.

*Chuck Roven (40:05):

No, there were other movies that were getting awards that we were nominated for and didn't win in those categories. Okay. We won the Globe. We won the Globe for drama. You gotta remember this. Okay. The last time I was nominated for Best Picture, American Hustle got 11 nominations.

Kevin Goetz (40:28):

You didn't get one. One. Are you serious?

Chuck Roven (40:30):

Yes.

Kevin Goetz (40:30):

So you just went to have a good time. 

Chuck Roven (40:33):

No, I thought we were gonna win some.

Kevin Goetz (40:34):

No, I'm saying at Oppenheimer you just went to have a good time. 'cause you're saying I'm gonna lower my expectations.

Chuck Roven (40:40):

I'm not gonna, okay, now I believe you. Okay. I said I don't want to jinx anything. Right. Okay. Who were you with? I was with my wife named <laugh>. Stephanie Haymes Roven. You know I love her. I knew Stephanie. Everybody does.

Kevin Goetz (40:55):

I knew Stephanie. I'm the luckiest guy from La dome. That's where I met her. Unbelievable. I think I just saw her. Yeah. She is here. And she's beautiful. She's a wonderful woman. She's supportive. And everywhere I go, everyone knows her. Who is of a certain level in our business, who a strata in our business, who has been around for enough years and had spent time at La dome.

Chuck Roven (41:20):

And I called her my secret weapon.

Kevin Goetz (41:22):

Uh, now she came to your latest movie that you and I worked on called Mercy. Yes. Which just opened. And it opened. Well, first of all, I love the movie. Thank you. I love it. For several reasons. And you watched it grow. Oh, I watched it grow. And Stephanie was there each and every screening, which is why you call her your secret weapon, I think. But look, the movie folks, why it's so good is it just is so kinetic. It keeps you on the edge of your seat. You literally are nervous about what's gonna happen. It's almost done in real time. And we tested it and it tested well. And then Chuck said, let's do it again. Let's work on the edit with the director. It said it tested just as good. Slightly better, better. But it was one of those things that each time we screened it, we made baby steps, but never like a breakthrough. And what was the issue standing back? What did you finally do? You listened to the audience first of all.

*Chuck Roven (42:24):

First of all, we listened to the audience. The second thing that we finally did was we cut the denouement.  Didn't think we needed it.  The Coda, yeah. We didn't think we needed it. It wasn't buying us anything. It actually was raising more questions than it answered.

Kevin Goetz (42:40):

In other words, the movie was done and you were sort of reviving it and it was, it didn't need to be revived. Didn't need to be revived. And the audience was telling you that? 

*Chuck Roven (42:50):

Yes. And then, because the director, as a producer and a director, Timur, he developed this concept, which he calls Screen Life. And that has to do with being able to view things in quote, real time unquote. And he made a movie called Searching and Missing. And they did very well. They cost almost nothing to make. What we wanted to do and have done with Mercy is expand this screen life concept and make somebody in a trial with an AI judge who can bring to the defendant the ability to see all these things that have gone on in his life repeated immediately. Because as an AI judge, that machine, she, in this case, is able to access your computer, your phones, the cameras on the street and not just yours.

Kevin Goetz (43:54):

And you know it's coming. What was the first answer when I said, give me your first thoughts. It's happening. It's real. It's of today. Yes. Whatever you wanna call it. It was so interesting that every person was almost freaked out by it because it felt so damn real. But I wanna just say again how you heard everything each time, 'cause you tested it a number of times because you didn't wanna settle. And I remember our last screening just came up in the scores so, so much because converted to 3D. Whose idea was that?

Chuck Roven (44:30):

That original idea was Namit Malhotra.

Kevin Goetz (44:34):

Namit is great, man. 

Chuck Roven (44:36):

Yeah, he's great.

Kevin Goetz (44:37):

He runs DNeg. DNeg. And he is a visionary.

Chuck Roven (44:43):

Yes.

Kevin Goetz (44:43):

You're also working on a movie that he's doing one of the biggest movies ever released out of India.

Chuck Roven (44:48):

Yes.

Kevin Goetz (44:48):

Called?

Chuck Roven (44:49):

Ramayana

Kevin Goetz (44:50):

Ramayana, part one, part two.

Chuck Roven (44:52):

Yes.

Kevin Goetz (44:53):

Because there's a lot to say in that legend.

Chuck Roven (44:55):

It's the Hindu and Indian Bible.

Kevin Goetz (44:57):

Exactly. Yeah. Literally. Yes. Literally. And yet no one in the rest of the world really knows it. So the question is how do we make it as western and as digestible as possible and defy what's really never been done a blockbuster coming out of another country other than America that goes worldwide. And I think you get there. I'm so hoping.

Chuck Roven (45:20):

Me too.

Kevin Goetz (45:20):

So Namit was great and influential. He was so smart because this movie, because of the glasses that you have to have while you watch it, makes you even more immersive in the experience. And I thought that was sort of genius. Yes. I'm just gonna say,

*Chuck Roven (45:37):

So we actually gave his company all of the visual effects and at the end of it, he said, you should seriously think about doing this in 3D. And I love that idea. And he put his money where his mouth was. He said, I'll give you test footage of the 3D that I'm talking about, and if you guys want to do it after that, I'll make a financial deal with MGM and get a piece of that 3D business.

Kevin Goetz (46:07):

That's brilliant. That's brilliant. Tell me before we break, Chuck, what's your relationship like with the audience? And when I say that, particularly with the test screening process, you and I have in our lives have most interacted until recently we've become more social friends. But for years we interacted sharing popcorn. Yes. At research screenings. Yes. What have you learned? How do you value them?

Chuck Roven (46:34):

It's so interesting because I do have directors who don't like those screenings.

Kevin Goetz (46:39):

Christopher Nolan is one of them.

Chuck Roven (46:41):

He doesn't test his movies with a recruited audience. He does do friends and family.

Kevin Goetz (46:44):

Sure,

*Chuck Roven (46:44):

Yeah. And I like to do a friends and family screening first and then go to an audience. But it's invaluable to have an audience tell you what they're thinking and you learn a tremendous amount from it.

Kevin Goetz (46:59):

That's the thing that you get. I try to tell people the difference between a definite recommend score that's a norm and a definite recommend score that may be 20 points above the average or norm could be tens of millions of dollars. Yes. But I don't understand why everybody just doesn't get that mechanics not to necessarily listen to exactly the fixes. Because audiences often can't tell you how to fix it. They just tell you what, they're not responding to exactly what's not working. But you as the creative producer and the director need to figure that out. But I know you have respect. It was a bit of a loaded question when it comes to audiences. I've seen you make the changes. I've seen you do the work and I really appreciate that.

Chuck Roven (47:43):

And I really appreciate the fact that when I'm doing a test screening, it's your company and you that I wanna go to because I value your insight. So thank you.

Kevin Goetz (47:57):

This has been a really nice talk and I know people are gonna be very excited about it. So continue to bring us great movies. Chuck Roven, you are a legendary producer at this point. I don't wanna say that to make you feel old, but your body of work is really extraordinary. So thank you. All right. 

Chuck Roven (48:20):

This was a pleasure in many ways, thank you.

Kevin Goetz (48:26):

To our listeners, I hope you enjoyed this conversation. I encourage you to watch many of Chuck's films, including his latest, Mercy. For more insights into filmmaking, audience testing, and the business of Hollywood, I invite you to check out my books, Audienceology and my latest book, How to Score in Hollywood. You can also follow me on my social media. Next time on Don't Kill the Messenger, I'll welcome veteran executive and producer Bob Cooper. Until then, I'm Kevin Goetz. And to you, our listeners, I appreciate you being part of the movie-making process. Your opinions matter.

Host: Kevin Goetz
Guest: Charles “Chuck” Roven
Producer: Kari Campano
Writers: Kevin Goetz, Darlene Hayman, and Kari Campano
Audio Engineer: Gary Forbes (DG Entertainment)