Podcast: Don't Kill the Messenger with Movie Research Expert Kevin Goetz
Guest: Bob Cooper

Interview Transcript:

Announcer (00:03):

From script to screen, every film is brought to life by visionary creatives and executives, all sharing one mission to captivate the audience. Hosted by award-winning movie strategist Kevin Goetz, our podcast, Don't Kill the Messenger, offers a filmmaking masterclass through intimate conversations with Hollywood's most influential voices. And now, your host, Kevin Goetz.

Kevin Goetz (00:28):

Before Prestige Television was a phrase, before streaming wars, and before studios understood the power of bold, fearless storytelling on the small screen, there was a moment in the mid-eighties when cable TV took a sharp left turn. Standing at the center of that shift was my guest today. Bob Cooper helped transform HBO from a simple movie channel into a creative powerhouse with groundbreaking films that were daring, cinematic, and culturally defining. After this, Bob went on to run production for Tri-Star Pictures, followed by heading development and production for Dreamworks. And later he built Landscape Entertainment. He's one of Hollywood's most quietly influential storytellers and a master of risk-taking and reinvention. Bob, thank you so much for joining me today. I'm thrilled to have you as my guest.

Bob Cooper (01:26):

Thank you.

Kevin Goetz (01:27):

I call you a raconteur, and you say Thank you. You're welcome. You're not a one word man, <laugh>. 

Bob Cooper (01:34):

No, I'll talk. I'll talk.

Kevin Goetz (01:36):

I'll tell you what really connected the two of us, aside from the fact that we've been through a lot of testing and films together over the years, was the fact that we have a passion for travel.

Bob Cooper (01:44):

Yes.

Kevin Goetz (01:45):

And I wouldn't take a trip without consulting with you of the Michelin star restaurants and where I should go for a number of trips. Correct.

Bob Cooper (01:55):

Exactly. Yes. Yes.

Kevin Goetz (01:57):

So you have a very interesting background. You are the definition of what I like to call finding your A N D, finding your and in my world is I started as a child actor and then I was a business owner, and then I was a focus group moderator, and then I was a producer of a live theater. And then I was a producer of film and a market research executive. And then I moved into owning my own company and and, and to get me on the perfect path of where I am today.

Bob Cooper (02:30):

So you were as mixed up as I am and have been.

Kevin Goetz (02:32):

Exactly. Yet I found every one of those things the opportunity to inform who I am today. Tell me about, and a building block. A building block. Tell me about where you started and all of those and because there are a lot of them and they're all impressive.

Bob Cooper (02:48):

Okay, well, I think I could say it briefly. I'm Canadian, grew up in Montreal, and at the age of 19, I decided I wanted to study to be an actor. And at the time, not many people flew around like I did. I flew from Montreal to Los Angeles and studied at the Pasadena Playhouse to be an actor. In fact, Dustin Hoffman was a year ahead of me, and I quickly knew.

Kevin Goetz (03:12):

Gene Hackman too.

*Bob Cooper (03:13):

Yes, I hear. But I never knew that, I didn't see him, but I did see Dustin. So I started there and I quickly realized that basically I'm a control person and that an actor hasn't got that control. It's almost like a piece of meat in a way. And so,

Kevin Goetz (03:31):

Especially, let's just say early on particularly

Bob Cooper (03:34):

Yes,

Kevin Goetz (03:34):

Because you're a commodity. You're going in, you're selling yourself, and it's really tough.

*Bob Cooper (03:39):

Very, very tough. There was that, plus my parents cut me off financially. They said, it's enough already. You need a profession. You weren't even like 18, 19. It was 19. You gotta come home now. You played around. And so I went home and they basically said, you need a profession, so you wanna go to law or medicine. So I went to law school.

Kevin Goetz (04:01):

Oh my God. Jewish parents,

Bob Cooper (04:03):

<laugh> and yes. And I was very depressed for the first month. And then, and it's very hard to figure out. I, although recently I did, I loved law school. Why now I understand. It's 'cause they're stories.

Kevin Goetz (04:15):

Hold on. You didn't start law school yet. You went to McGill first and got a BA, didn't you?

Bob Cooper (04:19):

Yes. I got a Bachelor of Arts. Then went away, then came back

Kevin Goetz (04:22):

And got a sociology degree.

Bob Cooper (04:24):

That was later. I got a master's in, in sociology.

Kevin Goetz (04:28):

Do you see what I'm saying? Listeners about being and finding your And he's the quintessential and. Go ahead.

Bob Cooper (04:32):

So basically I realized what I did like is they were stories. There was conflict and there was an outcome. And so I just loved law school knowing I'd never practiced. And when I graduated, instead of doing what everybody else did, joining law firms, I decided to do something different. And I founded as the first storefront legal aid office in Canada where

Kevin Goetz (04:56):

A storefront legal aid office.

Bob Cooper (04:58):

And I, it was tied to McGill. I got McGill to agree to do this

Kevin Goetz (05:02):

Because this were more for disenfranchised people. That's why the storefront,

Bob Cooper (05:06):

Right. The idea is poor people did not wanna go downtown to a big place. That was intimidating. So the idea was we would bring the law to their area. And so that I thought was really interesting. And then McGill University, just after I graduated, said, you know what? Give a course on this. So I gave a course at McGill on legal problems of the poor. Then the Department of Sociology said, would you help social workers under, so I did a course there. So I, it was really fun and interesting.

Kevin Goetz (05:38):

You were how old? 23.

*Bob Cooper (05:40):

About 22. Then I got a call from the Minister of Justice saying what you've done, could you put together a network of these offices all across the province of Quebec because that's where it was. And we did it. Then I remember going to the Minister of Justice and thanking him and said, what do you thank me for? I said, well, I, it's finished. I'm gonna go. He said, no, don't go. What do you wanna do? I said, I don't know, maybe I'll try. Criminal law sounds exciting. He said, why don't you prosecute organized crime for us? I said, I've never done it. He said, don't worry. And I ended up prosecuting organized crime.

Kevin Goetz (06:12):

Did they put, I'm not joking. Did they put you in witness protection program or

Bob Cooper (06:15):

No? First of all, I was very young. It was really interesting. There were three prosecutors. The other two were former policemen. Six four. Six three. And then there's me, <laugh>. I totally what <laugh>? Five, four. So here's what I did do,

Kevin Goetz (06:31):

<laugh>. So for the listeners, it's a good visual, by the way, Bob and I, you will notice it will be a little borsch belty at times.

*Bob Cooper (06:38):

 <laugh>. So here's what happened. We had a room for wiretapping that the department to deal with organized crime. And one day someone said, my God, I got a subpoena. I have to go down. Just hope you don't get the little fucker. He's dangerous. So I called my wife, I said, I got her a letter of reference. Now I'd be afraid it, I wasn't afraid. They literally said that. So she looked at me like, I'm crazy. But it's not that it was brave, it just didn't occur to me that when anything would happen, plus I figured in Canada, they're not gonna kill me.

Kevin Goetz (07:06):

Can I just say I'm still stuck at Canada has organized crime. Sorry, I don't mean to be disparaging. No, they, to get No. In fact, it's a compliment.

Bob Cooper (07:14):

No other people have thought that too. But what happened is people from Sicily and Italy had trouble at a certain point to get into America. So they used Montreal. Wow. These were very violent people.

Kevin Goetz (07:25):

And they didn't screw around.

Bob Cooper (07:27):

No. And it's funny, when I went to Pasadena Playhouse, when I came home, my father seemed beaten up. He was an impresario. He brought big talent to Montreal and across Canada.

Kevin Goetz (07:39):

Concert promoter. In today's lingo?

Bob Cooper (07:40):

Yes. You would call him that, I guess.

Kevin Goetz (07:42):

Got it. So Nat King Cole, and Frank Sinatra.

Bob Cooper (07:44):

I met Frank Sinatra. I met Nat King Cole. I met all these people at, it was very young, very impressive. And I'll never forget Nat King Cole, how classy he was. So my father, when he got beaten up or something, he finally told me that the mob came and said, you need insurance. He wouldn't do it. And they threw him down stairs.

Kevin Goetz (08:03):

They really did.

Bob Cooper (08:04):

They did. And it was a family called Catrone, which I can now mention because they've passed away these guys. But when I started the prosecution, I went after the head guys.

Kevin Goetz (08:15):

The same family who went after your dad.

Bob Cooper (08:17):

Yeah. And I did.

Kevin Goetz (08:18):

I would've said, dad, you know, you should have stayed with me after Pasadena Playhouse.

Bob Cooper (08:25):

That's very funny.

Kevin Goetz (08:26):

Because you know what, I really would've protected you <laugh> because you didn't, you said you were on your own.

Bob Cooper (08:31):

Yeah,

Kevin Goetz (08:31):

You cut me off. You're on your own pop.

Bob Cooper (08:33):

Here's another thing that happened one day I'm questioning, I'll never forget his name is Ziggy Wiseman. He was a lone shark. And at one point he says, you know what, I loaned your dad, in court, money, so don't start accusing me. And the judge said, delete that. That's irrelevant. But there was something interesting about going after these guys. You know, it's like, and I'm young, so I love doing it. So I do prosecuting organized crime, and then I'm interviewed on Canadian Broadcasting Corporation, CBC. They call me and they say, we're planning on doing a show like 60 Minutes. We can't use the name, we're gonna call it Ombudsman. I dunno what that word meant. But anyways,

Kevin Goetz (09:16):

What does it mean?

Bob Cooper (09:17):

It means someone who looks after people who've been screwed by the government one way or another.

Kevin Goetz (09:22):

How did they name a show that

Bob Cooper (09:24):

They did <laugh>? So, so they said,

Kevin Goetz (09:26):

And no one knew what that meant.

Bob Cooper (09:26):

They said, we have a gimmick. Instead of using, a journalist will use a real person. Oh, it's good. And you are like a real person. And we're a government financed place. So what we like is we don't know if you're right wing or left wing. You prosecute organized crime. Right? Nonpartisan. You're right wing.

Kevin Goetz (09:43):

You know what, I just wanna unpack that. That is really very smart of whoever thought of you as that host.

Bob Cooper (09:50):

So they tested me, they I went down to Toronto

Kevin Goetz (09:52):

And you had your acting training,

Bob Cooper (09:54):

Right?

Kevin Goetz (09:54):

This is what I'm trying to say. Because you had that plus the liberal, plus the conservative plus the, this. You're now 26 years old or something?

Bob Cooper (10:05):

No, 28 I think it was.

Kevin Goetz (10:06):

Yeah. Okay.

Bob Cooper (10:06):

28. I think

Kevin Goetz (10:07):

I remember you told me that at lunch. That's the only reason I remember all the, but I know more about your life than you do at this point. 'cause I, there's, there's a

Bob Cooper (10:14):

Bigger and coming up too, by the way.

Kevin Goetz (10:15):

Well, hold on. So you do this program, but I'm saying, who was the person who thought of that? I just, that deserves a call out. I'm just letting you know whoever that was.

Bob Cooper (10:23):

Yeah. A guy named Michael Harcourt and I learned a lot on that show. So for example, example,

Kevin Goetz (10:28):

How long were you at the show?

Bob Cooper (10:29):

I did it for six years. They wanted me to do it first. Weekly? Yes. Weekly. Not only that Canada's bigger than this year. I traveled 3000 miles a week. Every week for seven months. For six years.

Kevin Goetz (10:43):

Was it only in Canada or was it also in the States or anywhere else?

Bob Cooper (10:46):

No, but I would sometimes interview people from America, like the Attorney General of the United States.

Kevin Goetz (10:53):

Do you speak French?

Bob Cooper (10:54):

Yes.

Kevin Goetz (10:54):

Was it also in French, by the way?

Bob Cooper (10:56):

No, no, it was in English.

Kevin Goetz (10:57):

Okay. So that's incredible. You're Morley Safer and wrapped into at 28 years old.

Bob Cooper (11:03):

Right?

Kevin Goetz (11:03):

And you are about to tell us about your next and

*Bob Cooper (11:07):

Okay. While doing the show, what occurred to me is the control was behind the camera, not in front. And so I quit.They wanted me to stay on. They did it for another year and whatever, but I decided

Kevin Goetz (11:20):

They canceled the show or they replaced you?

Bob Cooper (11:23):

When I decided to leave, they replaced me, but it only lasted for a year because they had been used to me. Not 'cause I'm good.

Kevin Goetz (11:30):

Oh yes, you were.

*Bob Cooper (11:31):

So from there I decided, okay, I wanna be a producer and make movies. And while I knew nothing, I was very well known and there were big tax advantages in Canada. So basically I hung up my shingle and I got a lot of money to make movies. And looking back, it's very fun. I don't know what I was doing really. And so one of the first movies I think I made was with Michael Douglas was a little movie called Running. And I honestly didn't know what to do. I just read the script. I said, well that sounds like fun. And he wanted to do it.

Kevin Goetz (12:04):

And they needed a Canadian to get the tax credit.

Bob Cooper (12:06):

Yeah. But what was fascinating is there was something called videos. No one owned them. So when I did this movie, first of all, we raised the money independently, then we sold the film to Universal. But just for the feature stuff, they didn't own television or video. And so my lawyers worked in a way that before the movie opened, we were way in profit. So I said, this is an easy business. But wait. Then the next movie I made was called Middle Age Crazy with Bruce Dern and Anne Margaret

Kevin Goetz (12:39):

Both shot in Quebec, by the way.

Bob Cooper (12:41):

No, that was shot in Houston.

Kevin Goetz (12:43):

But you still had enough Canadian talent and below the line,

Bob Cooper (12:46):

Right.

Kevin Goetz (12:47):

So that you got the tax credit.

Bob Cooper (12:48):

Right. So I'm making that and I get a call from a new agency called CAA, guy named Mike Ovitz. And he says, I'd like to represent this movie. I said, well that's great. Thank you again. I don't know really what I'm doing. So we make the movie and I call him up, I said, now I could send it to you, Mike, and you could help us get it sold. He says, I don't want to see it. I'll do better not seeing it to sell it. This is Ovitz. I learned a lot about, because from him, and he sold it. And again, before it opened, we were in profit. So I'm thinking this is one of the easiest businesses I've ever heard of. So the next year.

Kevin Goetz (13:25):

To, oh my Lord.

Bob Cooper (13:26):

So the next year I get a lot of financial people saying, let's form a big company and we'll raise money. I then subcontracted, I got two producers to come in and help make the movies. At the end, it was tight. So I mortgaged my home and it was a disaster.

Kevin Goetz (13:44):

Your wife knew that. <laugh>

*Bob Cooper (13:46):

Afterwards. <laugh>. Anyways, so now I'm thinking, wait a second, I'm in real trouble here. I had to let go most of my staff, but I kept one person and I had one project left and I'm thinking, what am I gonna do? And this was a disaster. Everything was successful up till now. Now I learned the business. It's not so easy. So I had this one project left and it was a Canadian story and it was about a famous kid named Terry Fox. Terry Fox was a young kid. He had cancer. He ran across Canada and was very famous and then got very ill and eventually died. So we had a script that I thought was pretty good. And in the script, when he finds out he has cancer again, he says shit. And the CBC says, we're not making it. So I can't make it there. So what do I do? I'm desperate. I have nothing left. So all the features I had made before I sold to a small company called HBO. So I fly down to New York.

Kevin Goetz (14:46):

Home Box Office.

*Bob Cooper (14:47):

Yes. I fly down to New York and I say, listen, you gotta make something original. You gotta make an original movie. You know, you can't keep just running old things. I did it out of desperation. And if it doesn't work, I have Canadian money.

Kevin Goetz (15:01):

Who did you pitch to?

Bob Cooper (15:02):

To a guy named Steve Scheffer, who worked under Michael Fuchs. Michael Fuchs at the time was not chairman, but I met him.

Kevin Goetz (15:09):

But Michael Fuchs is really responsible for the beginning of hbo.

*Bob Cooper (15:12):

He's amazing. Absolutely amazing. Yeah. Anyways, so I convinced him to try to make this, and if it doesn't work, he'll lose very little money. But let's try it. And that changed my career. Putting it another way, I think I may have told you this at lunch, there's a great Chinese expression. The word in Chinese for crisis is the same word as opportunity.

Kevin Goetz (15:36):

That's genius. Oh, I love that.

Bob Cooper (15:37):

Yeah.

Kevin Goetz (15:38):

Keep going.

Bob Cooper (15:38):

So I'm in crisis, going broke. This turns out to be the biggest opportunity because it changed my career by making that movie.

Kevin Goetz (15:47):

I completely, completely believe in that adage.

Bob Cooper (15:50):

Yeah. Isn't it amazing?

Kevin Goetz (15:51):

I mean, Barack Obama said it in in when you know, for every, you know, crisis or dark point in our history, there's always this opportunity and things that come out of that.

Bob Cooper (16:04):

Exactly.

Kevin Goetz (16:04):

And find that.

*Bob Cooper (16:05):

And that changed everything. I then made this movie,

Kevin Goetz (16:09):

What changed? So they bought Terry Fox story.

Bob Cooper (16:11):

And it worked for them. Then I made this movie with Elizabeth Taylor and Carol Burnett, a little movie called Between Friends.

Kevin Goetz (16:16):

So you made it as a producer and HBO now bought it?

Bob Cooper (16:20):

No, they gave me money to develop it and make it because, so

Kevin Goetz (16:23):

Now you're saying, okay, now I understand the business.

Bob Cooper (16:27):

Yeah.

Kevin Goetz (16:27):

You knew that material was really strong, but if you didn't have the financing upfront, responsibly, you weren't gonna put up your house again.

Bob Cooper (16:34):

No, no more. I've never done it since. Anyway, so I did that. Then there's this famous writer, Levinson and Link, I dunno if you know Levinson and Link. They created Murder She Wrote, they created Columbo. They created Emmy-winning films. And I did a movie with them called The Guardian with Lou Gossett Jr. So I did these movies all for HBO. So I'm establishing myself, and by then Michael Fuchs is now running the place and I go see him and I say, listen, I'd like to move to the States. I'm still up in Canada. If you can gimme a deal. They gave me just a very simple little deal. But it was enough for me psychologically to come and move to America. But then when I got here, I thought, you know,

Kevin Goetz (17:18):

Where'd you go? New York?

Bob Cooper (17:20):

No, LA. And I thought, you know what? I'm 39 years old. What did I do? Why did I go to law school? Everybody went to film school. Everybody knows every, what do I know?

Kevin Goetz (17:29):

Which is so crazy because I'm looking at you right now going, he's a major success at 39.

Bob Cooper (17:33):

Yeah. But, but no, honestly. But I didn't fit. I didn't fit

Kevin Goetz (17:36):

Here. That's different.

Bob Cooper (17:37):

Which turned into a benefit because I was different.

Kevin Goetz (17:40):

Chinese word.

Bob Cooper (17:41):

Yes. And also just being different. Just 'cause I grew up differently.

Kevin Goetz (17:44):

You didn't come into it from a conventional way. Right. Nor did I. I get it.

*Bob Cooper (17:47):

Yeah. It's great. So then in terms of the and, making a film called The Murders Among Us, the Simon Wiesenthal story with Ben Kingsley. And as I'm filming it, Michael Fuchs calls me, he says, you know, I've gotta hire somebody to run this division thing. It's really tough and I haven't found the right people yet. And I'm calling you to see if you can recommend someone <laugh>. And I'm with my family in Budapest where we're shooting. And I said, I'll think about it. I hung up and I turned to my wife. I said, I'm gonna recommend myself. She said, you’ll make a fool of yourself.

Kevin Goetz (18:18):

Oh, I remember you telling me this.

Bob Cooper (18:20):

Yeah.

Kevin Goetz (18:20):

And your wife. I didn't like that she did that.

Bob Cooper (18:23):

No. But I liked that she was direct. Anyway, so I called.

Kevin Goetz (18:25):

No, but I liked your chutzpah.

Bob Cooper (18:27):

Yeah.

Kevin Goetz (18:27):

And saying, why not?

*Bob Cooper (18:28):

So I called Michael Fuchs, I said, I'm gonna recommend someone. I could vouch for him, and it's me. And he laughs a little. He said, well, it's very nice, but I've already offered it to Barbara Corday. So three weeks later, I get a call from Michael Fuchs saying it didn't work out with her. Are you still interested? I said, of course.

Kevin Goetz (18:48):

How does it not work in three weeks? I'm just asking.

Bob Cooper (18:51):

Well, I found out years later, what happened is she wanted final cuts. She wanted to be able to Greenlight films. I wouldn't demand it. 'cause I'm new, by the way, years later at HBOI did have it without asking.

Kevin Goetz (19:05):

But who else would do it? Michael.

Bob Cooper (19:07):

Michael would. Yeah, he was.

Kevin Goetz (19:08):

But you probably everything you broke, even when you had the ability, you'd go to Michael and say, I want to do this. Do I have your blessing?

Bob Cooper (19:14):

Well, Michael Fuchs and I are so different as people. I remember my wife also saying when I was offered the job, be careful because you, Bob, are opinionated. He is. And he's the boss.

Kevin Goetz (19:26):

Now your wife has just won me over again after she lost me on the first one. <laugh>, what's her name by the way?

Bob Cooper (19:31):

Nessa.

Kevin Goetz (19:32):

Nessa. Hi, Nessa.

*Bob Cooper (19:34):

<laugh>. So, so then what I do is I go to work there and what hits me originally, and here's the biggest and of all, how do I make films that make an impact?

Kevin Goetz (19:45):

Why did you need to make an impact?

Bob Cooper (19:47):

Because Michael Fuchs kept saying, we need a brand.

Kevin Goetz (19:51):

Okay. Who said, I don't want vanilla?

Bob Cooper (19:55):

Michael Fuchs.

Kevin Goetz (19:56):

Ah, Michael to you.

Bob Cooper (19:57):

Yeah. He said,

Kevin Goetz (19:58):

Don't bring me vanilla.

*Bob Cooper (19:59):

Yeah. Don't bring me vanilla.

Kevin Goetz (20:01):

I love that phrase. Just need to.

Bob Cooper (20:03):

Yeah. That was Michael Fuchs and my first movie I made, by the way, me, we did very well in the movies. My first movie did not work at all. I forget the name of it, whatever. But I go show it to Michael Fuchs. I call my wife. I said, I'm about to show this film. I'm gonna be fired so fast. And Michael watched it and laughed at it, it's really bad, but it's not vanilla. And that gave me an opportunity. And then I thought, okay, before I got here, beside the movies I made, they were making other movies, but they seemed like little film noirs. But here's what I thought, they're not standing out. What can I do to make something that you wouldn't see in the theater and you wouldn't see on television? And here's the big “and” I learned it all from my show in Canada.

*(20:53):

True stories, which people think, oh God, what do we need them? And if they're sad or no one's gonna watch. Looking back, that was the key “and” to what you're saying. And so I began making films. The first one was Josephine Baker's story. Josephine Baker was this black woman from St. Louis, and she grew out of terrible poverty and terrible segregation. She moved to Paris, became very famous in France, and she came back to America. But no one wanted her. She fought segregation. She was one of only two women with Martin Luther King. In 63. She became a spy on behalf of the resistance and was hugely successful in helping but treated terribly here by j Edgar Hoover because she was very critical of racism in America.

Kevin Goetz (21:44):

Sure.

Bob Cooper (21:45):

So she ended her citizenship in America, moved full-time in Paris, came back to America every now and then, but treated really badly, but treated amazingly in France. Anyways.

Kevin Goetz (21:57):

Was she still alive when you did this?

Bob Cooper (21:59):

No. Oh, when I did it? No, she died quite a long time ago.

Kevin Goetz (22:01):

Darn it. So I thought maybe you met her during the filming of of that.

*Bob Cooper (22:04):

People don't talk about this, but that is the show that gave me and Michael Fuchs a plan.

Kevin Goetz (22:12):

A white space. Yeah. You filled right into that. Like it's beyond what network television would do. It felt important. It felt like I could watch it at home. I didn't need to go to a theater to see it.

Bob Cooper (22:25):

Right.

Kevin Goetz (22:26):

And so Prestige television was essentially born.

*Bob Cooper (22:29):

Yeah. So that was the key. And no one really talks about it. They talk about the successful shows, but it started then. Wow. I remember when Michael Fuchs said, we've got it. And I guess what I love, and I'm not the only person. I love rejection. The number of people at HBO in marketing or whatever, who I had reports saying, you can't make this movie. No one knows who she is. No one cares. She's nobody. But that really drove me. And so then I heard about the book And the Band Played On about AIDS and how badly it was handled in America. So Aaron Spelling owns the rights. So I called Aaron Spelling, he said, well, I have it at NBC. I said, they'll never make it there. When is the option up? I'll buy it that day. He says, I'll call you back. But he didn't call me. So I called him. He said, no, they don't wanna do it. So I wanted to do it.

Kevin Goetz (23:17):

You mean they wanna renew it?

Bob Cooper (23:18):

They didn't wanna renew it NBC.

Kevin Goetz (23:20):

So he had the rights.

Bob Cooper (23:21):

He always had the rights, but he sold them to NBC, but they weren't making it.

Kevin Goetz (23:26):

I said, the day they were available, you called him and he said what?

Bob Cooper (23:29):

He said, yeah. And so everyone at the time though said it's a documentary. It's of course they said that dark, it ends badly. Everyone dies. And there's no central character. You know, what are you doing? We make it, by the way, very difficult. I felt I was in a political race because gay people were against it when they heard about it, because Patient Zero was a Canadian flight attendant. So that hurt it. Others were against it. But Michael Fuchs was unbelievably supportive and it did huge. And NBC bought it later to run it.

Kevin Goetz (24:12):

That is ironic. When we come back, we're gonna continue our discussion with Bob Cooper on HBO and much more. We'll be back in a moment. Listeners, the Motion Picture Television Fund is a nonprofit charitable organization that supports working and retired members of the entertainment community. This wonderfully run organization offers assistance for living and aging with dignity and purpose in the areas of health and social services, including temporary financial assistance, case management, and residential living. And has been a crucial lifeline to thousands during and beyond critical times that our industry continues to experience. To learn more, visit mptf.com. Please join me in helping others in our industry during times of need. There are so many ways to offer support and get involved. Thank you.We're back with Bob Cooper. Bob, I actually wanna move this forward because we've got Tristar. We've got Dreamworks. But before we do that, you've gotta tell me about working with Elizabeth Taylor and Carol Burnett together. What was that like?

*Bob Cooper (25:33):

Carol Burnett was an absolute delight. Elizabeth Taylor was a lot of work. She was, first of all, not feeling well. Genuinely.

Kevin Goetz (25:42):

Well, she had such health problems.

Bob Cooper (25:43):

Yeah. And she was sometimes a bit out of it, but it was not easy and pretty well, every day we had to bring some gift to her. And if there was no gift, she was later to set.

Kevin Goetz (25:58):

What kind of gifts? Tell me the gifts.

Bob Cooper (26:00):

Jewelry.

Kevin Goetz (26:01):

Every day.

*Bob Cooper (26:02):

Every day. Something. Yes. Yeah. And it was worth financially. I remember at one point Michael Fuchs said, what are you doing spending the money? So he came up and he saw what happened if we didn't and said we agreed.

Kevin Goetz (26:14):

So part of that was the budget.

Bob Cooper (26:15):

Yeah, it had to be.

Kevin Goetz (26:17):

And you knew that going in

Bob Cooper (26:18):

Not fully

Kevin Goetz (26:19):

Marion Rosenberg represented her. Right?

Bob Cooper (26:21):

Yeah.

Kevin Goetz (26:22):

And so she would probably have told you, you'll wanna prepare for this.

Bob Cooper (26:27):

I imagine. I don't remember being prepared.

Kevin Goetz (26:28):

She's a great lady.

Bob Cooper (26:29):

Or whether my staff did or not. But that was it. The other thing I wanted to mention though, which is interesting when I keep talking about rejection and what's wrong with what we're doing, when I wanted to make Barbarians at the Gate, literally people said…

Kevin Goetz (26:42):

Oh, that little movie

*Bob Cooper (26:42):

People said, you're gonna make a comedy about a leverage buyout. Who is ever gonna watch that? What is it now? Larry Gelbart wrote it and it was clean and clear. You could understand it, but the number of people that said to me, it will never work. So we began making these kinds of movies like I'll never forget. The one that I'm really proud of is something called The Positively True Adventures of a Texas Murdering Cheerleader Mom.

Kevin Goetz (27:09):

What I was thinking of this when I was doing research for this, did the script have that title on it?

Bob Cooper (27:14):

Yes. But here's what's interesting.

Kevin Goetz (27:16):

How did it fit across the page?

Bob Cooper (27:18):

<laugh>? First of all, it wasn't there at the beginning. We, we came up where it's genius, actually. I think Michael Ritchie who directed it, I think he did.

Kevin Goetz (27:25):

And when it was nominated for an Emmy, did they announce that full, full title? Yes. Yes. That's great.

Bob Cooper (27:31):

It's great. It was a lot of fun. But I remember I went to lunch with an agent who pitched me this idea, and in my head I'm thinking, what's this guy doing? Does he do his homework? We don't make TV movies. Then suddenly he said, it's going to be a movie about TV movies. And a light went off in my head, but originally I thought, I don't do those kind of movies, but it wasn't really making fun of these kind of movies. Then I said, that's HBO, we're judging what's out there. But I didn't get it right away. I literally thought to myself, this is a waste of time for a lunch.

Kevin Goetz (28:03):

That's great.

Bob Cooper (28:03):

'cause he's pitching something that's a TV movie. But that one sentence got me.

Kevin Goetz (28:08):

I love that. Tell me, you were at HBO for how long now?

Bob Cooper (28:11):

Nine years.

Kevin Goetz (28:12):

Wow. That's a run. I mean, in our business, listeners, you know, that's a very long tenure at a studio or a production company or a network. You then got an offer, didn't you? To go to Tristar?

Bob Cooper (28:26):

Yes. What happened is Michael Fuchs, who was my boss, had been fired from HBO. Why? Because it's really interesting. He was against the fact that Warner Brothers was gonna merge with AOL, and he thought it was a terrible mistake. And by the way, Michael Fuchs was right.

Kevin Goetz (28:45):

Was he right.

Bob Cooper (28:46):

But he was let go and that was too bad. And so then I decided, you know what? Maybe I should try something different. I've had a good run. And I got a call from the chairman of Sony. At the time, Alan Levine said, let's have lunch. And so I met at his home and we talked and he said, would you be interested in becoming president of Tristar?

Kevin Goetz (29:08):

Oh wow.

*Bob Cooper (29:08):

I said, fine. But in all honesty, I've never worked in a feature company in my life. He said, well, yeah, but your HBO stuff is like features. So I said, fine. And six weeks later, after I start the job, Alan Levine is let go. Mark Canton is let go. The company's changing. And then they tell me, there's this guy John Calley that's coming in, and I saw something in trades. I couldn't believe it. It said that there's a good chance that when he starts, he's gonna get rid of Cooper. Why? Because he had pitched me a project at HBO

Kevin Goetz (29:44):

Years ago.

*Bob Cooper (29:45):

Yeah. When I was at HBO movie, and we were making it, but when he pitched it, he was a producer. By the time we were making it, he was running whatever company, but he was running his own company. He was running a studio and the movie that we were about to start shooting and it was not going well. So I called John and I said, John, I need to take control here. You can't make it. If you could, it'd be great. And whoever you sent we're having a lot of problems with, I need to take it over because the movie's gonna start and it's a mess and I can't fix it. So what I'd like to do is buy you out. And on the call he said, well, if you do, I want a million dollars. And on the call, I gave him a million dollars because what's the problem? The problem I found out later, he never forgave me.

Kevin Goetz (30:33):

But you gave him a million dollars.

Bob Cooper (30:34):

I know. Someone told me later it's because he was embarrassed to tell his partner, who was Mike Nichols, that it had, this had happened. I don't know. So it became very rough.

Kevin Goetz (30:45):

They were best friends. Yeah.

Bob Cooper (30:47):

Yeah. It was a very rough time. But since I had never been fired, I said, I'm gonna make it work. And I did everything I could to make it work. And some of the things worked. For example, when we were doing Jerry Maguire and this, this is the amazing,

Kevin Goetz (31:01):

But you inherited Jerry Maguire, right?

Bob Cooper (31:02):

Yeah, I inherited it. I had nothing to do with making it except for one thing. I was in a meeting, John Calley's there. So already I'm a little uncomfortable. And it turns out that the material to sell tested terribly.

Kevin Goetz (31:17):

I know Bob Levin was my COO.

Bob Cooper (31:18):

So he'll tell you yes. That people thought it was either

Kevin Goetz (31:21):

They had to change the entire direction, it was a feathered fish, really.

Bob Cooper (31:24):

Yeah.

Kevin Goetz (31:24):

When they first started the marketing campaign,

Bob Cooper (31:27):

Right. What happened is it was seen as a comedy, but football or an Irish because of the name Jerry Maguire. So everybody talked about it and Jim Brooks was producing it. And I didn't know Jim Brooks, but you wanna know what's amazing about this guy? The meeting ends. I don't say a word in the meeting, first of all, it's one of the first meetings. Secondly, I've got Calley there and I'm from tv. I don't know what's going on. And as everyone leaves, Jim Brooks says, could you stay here for a minute? So I stay. He says, you didn't say anything. I said, well, I find it fascinating. He said, no. What did you think? I said, no, it's just interesting. He said, just tell me what you thought. He kept saying it over and over why he did it to this day, I'm not sure.

*(32:08):

So finally, I blurted out, I said, well, if it was an HBO movie, we would market this by theme. What? Tell me more. I said, well, it's quite simple. It's a comedy about not selling out. Not only will our lead guy not, but Renee Zellweger won't sell out what he says to her, I'll stick with you, I'll stick with your kid. And she said, that's not good enough. It's a comedy about not selling out. So Jim Brooks goes to everyone in marketing, including John Calley, and said, I've spoken to Cooper, I've spoken to our director Cameron Crowe, and they are gonna spend Thanksgiving, the two of them redoing all the marketing. And we did. And what was amazing is the director then said to me, it is mathematically provable that the numbers completely changed. And he's always remembered that.

Kevin Goetz (33:06):

Cameron.

Bob Cooper (33:07):

Yeah, Cameron was great.

Kevin Goetz (33:08):

First of all, I'm crazy about Cameron. I gotta get him on this show because we have a fondness for each other.

Bob Cooper (33:13):

Yeah.

Kevin Goetz (33:14):

And he's a terrific human. But I also wanna say Callie was very kind to me. And I just know that there was something probably under the surface of all of it, wanting your own regime or whatever,

Bob Cooper (33:25):

Whatever. But Cameron Crowe was amazing. And he did a podcast about a year or two ago and he brought it up again.

Kevin Goetz (33:33):

Yeah. Bob Levin tells me all the time, this was a movie that was a great movie. It scored extremely well. I can vouch for that. But it couldn't find its weight in the market. It couldn't find the marketability. And I think you helped crack that code. Yeah. And Bob, Bob took that and ran with it. And as I said, the rest is history. Yeah. It's marvelous story. So you are at Tristar. You're there for only two years. You ultimately get fired for reasons which none of us will ever really know.

Bob Cooper (34:06):

But when we settled what the money would be, and I instead, one thing before I would close, which is I wanted him to meet me because I report to the chairman, he would never meet me. And I want him to tell me why he's firing me and he can lie. So I meet him and he said, well here's,

Kevin Goetz (34:23):

Hold on. What did Nessa say about that?

*Bob Cooper (34:25):

She said, no good now she said, good, you go after him. So anyways, so I meet with him and he says, you're from tv? I said, yeah, but there are people. He said, you're not one of them. I said, what do you mean? He said, you had the opportunity to make overall deals with big producers. You haven't done it. You have one guy. I said, well, wait a second, I only had six weeks. And then you came in and you wouldn't let me do anything. Yeah. But he said, but right now you made a deal with a guy who hasn't made a single feature in his life. And I went home and I said, but this guy, Neil Moritz is gonna make it <laugh>. And Neil knows the story. And he was there for 19 years.

Kevin Goetz (35:01):

He's been a guest on our podcast.

Bob Cooper (35:02):

Yes. Neil and I are good friends because I gave him that break. I mean, it was his first

Kevin Goetz (35:06):

Wow.

Bob Cooper (35:07):

Break in the feature thing. So I leave and then Katzenberg calls up.

Kevin Goetz (35:12):

How long since leaving did you get the call from Jeffrey?

Bob Cooper (35:15):

As soon as it was announced that I was out, done, what happened is I was developing my own Amistad and I got a call from Jeffrey that he'd like me to meet with Steve. This is when I was at HBO, that Steve would wanna know if there's any way we could merge that so that he could make his, and I remember saying to him, Steve, Steve, what do you care about HBO? We're nothing. He said, no, you've made it something. Which is very nice. Anyways, so we finally agreed to not pursue ours, pursue his, I could give my input and all that. And in return, I remember saying, I hope that we can get you to do something for HBO.

Kevin Goetz (35:58):

And you meet with Steven and Jeffrey and David Geffen.

Bob Cooper (36:01):

I met with all of them.

Kevin Goetz (36:02):

And what about Laurie Macdonald and Walter Parks? Were they there yet?

Bob Cooper (36:06):

They had been there, yes.

Kevin Goetz (36:06):

Yes. So were they in the meeting or it was just the No. Three principals. They weren't, okay.

*Bob Cooper (36:10):

And what was unusual is Steven's back was out. So the entire interview was him on the floor. Me looking down to him the entire meeting because of his back. So he's looking up, I'm looking down and we have a meeting. And then I get a call saying, yeah, he'd like me to join. You know? And so it was an amazing experience. He was involved in everything and he was great. And he read everything. So one day I get a script from one of my executives whose name is Glenn Williamson, and I'm about to go on a holiday for a long weekend to Cabo. And as I'm leaving, he says, I want you to read a script. I said, well, tell me what it's about. He tells me, and I said, it's got no premise. It's got no way to sell. But happily, I had a basic concept always with my executives, which is you can very selectively say five words. You have to read it because sometimes you can't explain it. You need to do it. It's like giving people rope.

Kevin Goetz (37:15):

It's a chit card.

Bob Cooper (37:16):

Yes.

Kevin Goetz (37:17):

And you get only two or three of those while you're here. Use them wisely.

Bob Cooper (37:22):

Right. So I have the script, I go to Cabo, I figured I gotta read this thing. And it was called American Beauty, but it was hard to pitch. And I got it. And I thought it was amazing.

Kevin Goetz (37:33):

Who wrote it?

*Bob Cooper (37:34):

Alan Ball. Why was it so great? It was unique. It was so funny. It was moving. And thematically, it was about people who love, who can't say they love, who can't bring themselves. They have so much pain in them.

Kevin Goetz (37:49):

See, that's your superpower, Bob, is what I understand it to be, is the fact that you recognize these themes and what's gonna resonate deeply and universally. And yet, by the time you're at Dreamworks, now you're thinking more smartlyso, as marketing, as like, we can't market that. In other words, you would never have said that in your HBO days.

Bob Cooper (38:11):

Yeah.

Kevin Goetz (38:12):

In fact, you were anti that. Now you're turning into that person, if you will, because the theatrical movie business was so based on how can we sell this?

*Bob Cooper (38:21):

True. Although, because of my upbringing at HBO, what I realized is this movie doesn't fit Dreamworks. It's not the kinda movie they make. They never made these little movies. I remember I said to Steven, but, but why don't we do this? And we'll say we're creating a new division of low-budget films. And remember I called him on a Thursday and I said, there's a script I'd like you to read and I'd like you to read soon if you could please, because I really wanna move. He said, why do you want me to read it? You didn't develop what you want. I said, I don't wanna develop, I wanna make it. He reads it that night, seven in the morning, the next day he calls Walter Parks in me and says, this is really something come into my office.

Kevin Goetz (39:04):

Oh God, I get so taken at certain moments or stories that is just incredible. Like the gravitas of what you just said.

Bob Cooper (39:14):

Yeah. And he read it right away and said, can you make it for 12 million? And I looked into it.

Kevin Goetz (39:23):

Where did he come up to 12 million. He had already called his business affairs people and whatever?

Bob Cooper (39:26):

I think I, I don't think Steve could do what he wanted, but I think there was a kind of unstated rule that anything up to 12 million, he could just make it in the end. By the way, it cost 17 million. But Steven had already seen a lot of it. And by the way, when he saw the first cut of the movie, he said, this is an academy movie. He said it immediately and he said, we're going right into it.

Kevin Goetz (39:51):

Did you get pushback from Jeffrey on that?

Bob Cooper (39:53):

A bit. Yes.

Kevin Goetz (39:54):

Yeah. Because Jeffrey is so much about finding the audience, et cetera.

Bob Cooper (39:59):

Yeah.

Kevin Goetz (39:59):

Which I can't blame him. I subscribe to that quite a bit myself.

Bob Cooper (40:03):

Yeah.

Kevin Goetz (40:04):

But the bravery it took to, to take that swing.

*Bob Cooper (40:08):

But I didn't know better. I'm not being falsely modest. I just didn't know. 'cause at HBO, you take those shots and I learned, again, it's the building block I learned from my TV show. 

Kevin Goetz (40:17):

But you had precious

Bob Cooper (40:17):

To go to hbo.

Kevin Goetz (40:18):

You had precious chits as well with Steven. And for you to say, I like you to read this. And I, it's not about developing, I wanna make, it was a pretty big, putting yourself out there on

Bob Cooper (40:31):

Yeah.

Kevin Goetz (40:31):

On a limb.

Bob Cooper (40:32):

Yeah. And so he

Kevin Goetz (40:34):

Loved it. And you did Galaxy Quest over there too?

*Bob Cooper (40:37):

Well, Galaxy Quest was the first thing I developed. I think I bought it. It was so the first day I got there and I think people, my executives thought, boy, he's an easy sale dude. Like you could sell Cooper anything. Because all I had at the time was, uh, four aliens come up to Earth, meet Captain Kirk and think he's real. And I remember saying to the executive, well that's sort of an interesting premise. I still don't understand it. I need a theme and I need a big writer. And we found it.

Kevin Goetz (41:05):

And you director did a great job.

Bob Cooper (41:06):

Yes.

Kevin Goetz (41:07):

I remember seeing it. I felt it was so fresh. You don't stay there but two years.

Bob Cooper (41:12):

Well, the other one I brought in was "Meet the Parents." What happened there was <laugh>. I found out that there was a script at Universal, but they weren't making it.

Kevin Goetz (41:23):

It's such a good premise too.

*Bob Cooper (41:25):

I know. And it's a great title. Steven said right away, title is the idea. It's a great thing. So what I remember going to Steven's office and he picks up the phone because it's universal. And he calls Edgar Bronfman while I'm there. And he said, you know, we talk about doing things together. You've got a script there called Meet the Parents. We'd like to do it. And Edgar said, that's great fun, whatever. And that's how it happened.

Kevin Goetz (41:50):

Boy, it's fun to be Steven. Wow.

Bob Cooper (41:52):

And, and then I did an overall deal with the writer. We did a three picture deal. Anyway, so that was, that was great.

Kevin Goetz (41:58):

The three picture deal on Meet the Parents,

Bob Cooper (42:00):

The three me no on meet the parents and two other things, which in the end.

Kevin Goetz (42:04):

Oh, but I was gonna say, 'cause you made at least a couple of sequels.

Bob Cooper (42:07):

They did. Yeah.

Kevin Goetz (42:07):

Was that not part of the three picture deal?

Bob Cooper (42:10):

No, no. That was separate. So that was a great time.

Kevin Goetz (42:14):

I could tell when you talk about it, you have great fondness.

Bob Cooper (42:17):

Yes, great fondness for Steven and for him and for J. Just the way he operated.

Kevin Goetz (42:24):

After you leave Dreamworks, you form Landscape Entertainment.

Bob Cooper (42:30):

Yes.

Kevin Goetz (42:31):

What are you most proud of from your entry into your own production company?

*Bob Cooper (42:36):

I guess I'll start negatively. Not having the stress and pressure of those jobs that I had had before. I am not great at compartmentalization of what we do. Like I think some of the best executives are though, when things go awful and fall apart and go home and are fine. I didn't go home and I wasn't fine when those things happened.

Kevin Goetz (43:01):

You think that there's an executive when things fall apart, go home and they're fine.

Bob Cooper (43:05):

I think there are real executives that are like that.

Kevin Goetz (43:07):

Oh, I'd love to meet one <laugh>. If you know any of those names. Really? Yeah. I mean, I think it's just a job. You can't, it's, it's there's, there's the art and the science of that. And I don't care. Every executive and great executive, and I've worked with all of them in the last 40 years, are so invested in the art of it as well that these become their babies too. You can't help but be very personal.

Bob Cooper (43:32):

I found that.

Kevin Goetz (43:33):

Personal with all the material. They become your little children, don't they?

Bob Cooper (43:37):

Yeah.

Kevin Goetz (43:38):

So that's an interesting, but also, you know, I think you were just a human being

Bob Cooper (43:42):

And when things got went over budget, it would bother me more than, even if it was not that much. It was just something maybe from being from Canada, I, it just was very tough for me.

Kevin Goetz (43:52):

It was because you made a commitment that you were gonna bring this movie in for 17 million 1st 12, then 17. And if it went over to 17 and a half, you failed in your commitment. Yes. And you're a man of your word. And with great integrity, it makes all the sense in the world. Let me ask you a question as we wind this down. What's the biggest mistake you made in your life?

Bob Cooper (44:16):

God, there's so many. I've gotta figure out <laugh>, which is my biggest mistake.

Kevin Goetz (44:19):

I was asked that question, I want to tell you very recently. And I said there's not one because I make so many. But there was not one that was so big that I could think of it, if that makes sense. So maybe that's the same with you.

*Bob Cooper (44:36):

Maybe. I think I learned a lot at Dreamworks, which was, and I'm not gonna go through names, but not about Steven, but making the mistake that the work would speak on its own and not fight

Kevin Goetz (44:53):

being politically savvy enough.

Bob Cooper (44:55):

And not fight for the credit of it or for whatever. That was a mistake.

Kevin Goetz (45:00):

And that's so funny. That happened later in your career, thinking that the work is enough and the work often isn't enough. Lawrence Olivier has a great quote that it's not enough to have talent. You have to have a talent for talent. And so you need to keep yourself marketed, publicized when no one else is willing to give you the credit. Say, but I contributed. That is not unimportant. To elevate one's career, to just rely on, I'm gonna be quiet and demure in that room. Could be cute, but it's a little boring.

*Bob Cooper (45:36):

Yeah. The other thing I learned, which isn't in the direction you're talking about, but I think was important to me, was have a life. You know, I was like a, looking back, I think I was a, I did well, but it was like a machine. And I needed to take time after all those jobs to just have a real life.

Kevin Goetz (45:55):

You have kids,

Bob Cooper (45:56):

I have kids as a father, as a husband, to be there.

Kevin Goetz (46:00):

Did you think you were there, Bob?

Bob Cooper (46:02):

Not enough. And so I took off a number of years just which a lot of people who know me thought I could never do. And I did and I traveled. Travel, as you said, was very important to me and got a perspective, which has been very helpful.

Kevin Goetz (46:20):

What's the one thing that nobody knows about Bob Cooper that you can share with us?

*Bob Cooper (46:27):

That while I don't look it, I'm quite introverted and I think that also hurt somewhat. It's just who I am. You know, I love reading. I love thinking, I love all that and the making of it. But, and I think some people thought at times I was arrogant as a buyer because I didn't show up at parties I didn't show up at. It's just not who I was. It's not what I wanted.

Kevin Goetz (46:50):

You wanted to be with the family.

Bob Cooper (46:52):

Yeah. There was basically that part of it.

Kevin Goetz (46:53):

I also get this impression, and again, from our two recent lunches, even from this interview, that Nessa and you still have a pretty beautiful love story.

Bob Cooper (47:04):

There is a great story. The last thing I will say, and we've talked about it at lunch, I'm a strong believer, it sounds like not much to say of what pain means in our lives.

Kevin Goetz (47:14):

Hmm.

*Bob Cooper (47:15):

How every movie, every comedy is still about pain. And it's important to know that. that what we identify with in these stories often is the pain of people we're watching. We can, it may be completely different. It first hit me when the movie Babe came out and I thought, none of us are pigs that wanna be sheep dogs. Why do we care? It's because we identify with the pain of this poor pig trying to be something where people say, you'll never be it. And he sort of wonders, but he does it. We all wonder, especially when we're younger, can we be more than what people think we are? And so pain is very important in my head. We once talked about it and it's why, for example, now I'm working on a first time I've worked on a stage play about Bobby Kennedy, not this Kennedy, the father.

(48:10):

And what he went through because Kennedy, when his brother died, had tremendous pain. Not simply because it, his brother Jack was murdered, but because he thought he killed his brother, he literally said, my attack against enemies have brought enemies into my home. I made my brother go after the mob. I made him go after the southern bigots. I made him go after Cuba. And there was no point killing me, but they killed my brother and I did it. And he was in so much pain that one day what happens is Ethel goes to Jackie Kennedy and said, Bobby is a mess. I can't handle it. I'm gonna take my kids skiing over school break. I know you're gonna Antigua to your place. Take Bobby. All I ask is you bring them back. And it's a story of what happened when they were away and what Jackie did to get Bobby to become alive again. And it was all about pain. And she forced them to read this book from about a book written thousands of years ago by Aeschylus. And there's a great quote. In our sleep pain, which cannot forget falls drop by drop upon the heart until at our despair against our will, through the awful grace of God comes wisdom. that changed Bobby Kennedy's life. And that quote is on his grave today. Wow. And anything about pain I find fascinating.

Kevin Goetz (49:36):

Very interesting. Listen, Bob, you've got such substance and you have brought us so many great stories through your sensibility, through the artistry that you have. And I thank you and I know our listeners thank you for joining me today and I hope that you bring us many more to come.

Bob Cooper (49:54):

Well, thank you. Very enjoyable and you're a good interrogator. <laugh>.

Kevin Goetz (50:02):

To our listeners, I hope you enjoyed this conversation. For more insights into filmmaking, audience testing, and the business of Hollywood, I invite you to check out my books, Audienceology and my latest book, How to Score in Hollywood. You can also follow me on my social media. Next time on Don't Kill the Messenger, I'll welcome the iconic film and television star Robert Wagner, known as RJ. Until then, I'm Kevin Goetz, and to you, our listeners, I appreciate you being part of the movie-making process. Your opinions matter.

Host: Kevin Goetz
Guest: Bob Cooper
Producer: Kari Campano
Writers: Kevin Goetz, Darlene Hayman, and Kari Campano
Audio Engineer: Gary Forbes (DG Entertainment)