Podcast: Don't Kill the Messenger with Movie Research Expert Kevin Goetz
Guest: Robert Wagner

Interview Transcript:

Announcer (00:03):

From script to screen, every film is brought to life by visionary creatives and executives, all sharing one mission to captivate the audience. Hosted by award-winning movie strategist Kevin Goetz, our podcast, Don't Kill the Messenger, offers a filmmaking masterclass through intimate conversations with Hollywood's most influential voices. And now, your host, Kevin Goetz.

Kevin Goetz (00:29):

Put your seatbelts on, listeners. Boy, do I have an enormous treat for you today. My guest is one of only a handful of people still living who was part of the original Hollywood studio system. A time when movie stars were shaped, careers were built over decades, and cinema itself was being defined. Over a career that spans eight decades, he's played soldiers, cowboys, playboys, thieves, millionaires, and everything in between. He's appeared in dramas, westerns, war films, musicals, and comedies, including The Longest Day, A Kiss Before Dying, Midway, The Pink Panther, The Towering Inferno. And decades later, a pop culture renaissance as Number Two in the Austin Powers films. After becoming a true movie star, he did something remarkably rare for his generation. He successfully transitioned to television. Redefining what a long, evolving career in Hollywood could look like, starring in not one, not two, but three television series.

(01:38):

It takes a thief, switch, and heart to heart, and later enjoying recurring roles for a whole new generation on Two and a Half Men and NCIS. His life offscreen has been just as full. Married twice to legendary Natalie Wood, to Marion Marshall, and for nearly four decades now to the extraordinary and brilliant Jill St. John. Along the way, he formed friendships with some of the greatest legends ever to grace the screen. Spencer Tracy, Fred Astaire, James Cagney, Clark Gable, Cary Grant, David Niven, Bette Davis, and Barbara Stanwyck. And tomorrow, incredibly, our guest and my friend turns 96 years young. Of course, I am talking about one of Hollywood's enduring icons, Robert Wagner. RJ, my dear, dear friend. That is the longest inro I've ever done. You and Jill have been at Neil's and my home for the last week, celebrating your marvelous milestone, but it is an absolute privilege to have you here in my show today.

(02:49):

Welcome.

Robert Wagner (02:50):

Oh, thank you. And what an introduction. I never had an introduction like that before.

Kevin Goetz (02:55):

I can't imagine that's true.

Robert Wagner (02:56):

No, that's the best I've ever had.

Kevin Goetz (02:58):

Wow. Uh- Really? Well, that's something. Oh, boy. This is a very strange interview because I know so much about you. We have become great friends. First call out to my husband, Neil. Without Neil, we wouldn't be sitting here because Neil and your daughter, Katie, became best friends. She brought you into our lives, and now over the course of several years, we forged our own very deep friendship. I have to tell you that more than anything, more than all of those credits, more than the fact that I have to pinch myself that I'm in the presence of RJ Wagner is the fact that you're one of the most decent and caring humans I have ever met. Aw. And it is an honor to know you.

Robert Wagner (03:41):

Thank you so much.

Kevin Goetz (03:43):

Okay. How did it start? How the hell did a little pisher from Michigan- <laugh> ... Want to become what you became? Did you dream of this as a boy back then in the Midwest?

*Robert Wagner (03:57):

Well, I just loved the movies. I wanted to be an actor, and I've been very fortunate, Kevin, because, you know, what I wanted to do and be, it worked out for me. I was just very, very fortunate. Lucky-

Kevin Goetz (04:10):

You wanted to be an actor since you were a little boy?

Robert Wagner (04:12):

Yeah. I was overwhelmed by the movies.

Kevin Goetz (04:16):

First movie you saw, do you remember?

Robert Wagner (04:18):

I think it was Marie Antoinette. And then I met Norma Shearer. I went to school with her son.

Kevin Goetz (04:26):

Okay, this blows my mind because, first of all, RJ's written several books. Oh, did I not mention he was an author also? <laugh> I mean, what happened-

Robert Wagner (04:33):

You mentioned everything, believe me, we were great.

Kevin Goetz (04:35):

But your second book, which Neil is producing a documentary of with your godson, Adam Storke-

Robert Wagner (04:40):

Uh-huh.

Kevin Goetz (04:41):

... and Robyn Bliley is about the kind of construct of the early days in Hollywood.

Robert Wagner (04:47):

Yes, that's right.

Kevin Goetz (04:48):

And the architecture, the influences, et cetera, et cetera. So, again, I wanna go back to you coming here, you see Marie Antoinette later to meet the Norma Shearer. Your father got a job here, did he not?

Robert Wagner (05:03):

Well, he came out here to retire. He was in the automobile business in Michigan, and they went to Florida first, and then Arizona, and then they decided on California, which was a big break for me, because it put me in proximity with a lot of people, you know, a lot of motion picture people, kids. I went to school with, I told you, with Irving Thalberg Jr. And I was a boarder, and so on the weekends, boarders could go to family's homes, and I was invited to go to Irving's home, and Irving Thalberger was arranged at Norma Shearer. And I was kind of amazed because I thought I was gonna be with Marie Antoinette. <laugh> But she was so nice to me.

Kevin Goetz (05:49):

Was it like a normal house in the Thalberg house?

Robert Wagner (05:52):

No, they had a home at the beach. One of those beach houses that are right on Santa Monica Beach. Oh. It was terrific. And she was wonderful to me later on in life, too.

Kevin Goetz (06:01):

Did your friend become part of the movie business?

Robert Wagner (06:04):

Yeah, he was involved in the motion picture industry, yeah.

Kevin Goetz (06:07):

When do you decide that you wanna be a star? And I know the answer to the story, because you were a golf caddy.

Robert Wagner (06:16):

Yeah, well, I became a caddy because all the caddies went to war.

Kevin Goetz (06:20):

So we're talking in the early 40s.

*Robert Wagner (06:21):

Yeah. So the kids, we all became loopers. We became caddies. Loop was 18 holes. And I was a caddy there, and Clark Gable was playing golf at the Bel Air Country Club, and I was starstruck to see him. And Cary Grant was there, Fred Astaire, Randolph Scott. And you're talking about when I saw them all walk down the fairway? Is that what you're talking about? Yeah. That was really something you can imagine what that was like,

Kevin Goetz (06:48):

Kevin. I can't actually. I get verklempt when I hear that. <laugh>

Robert Wagner (06:53):

Oh, it was great.

Kevin Goetz (06:54):

Hold on. Before we go on, give me a good oi. Oy.

Robert Wagner (06:57):

Oy.

Kevin Goetz (06:58):

The oi.

Robert Wagner (06:59):

I

Kevin Goetz (06:59):

Mean, you know-

Robert Wagner (07:00):

That was an oy, believe me.

Kevin Goetz (07:01):

That was an oy. <laugh> So you're 11 or 12 years old.

*Robert Wagner (07:04):

Yeah, and I see the four of them, and I don't know, Kevin. It's like, it's in the stars someplace, you know, or in the ... I mean, look what happened to me with those four men. I became very close with Cary Grant. Fred Astaire, I played his son in it takes a thief.

Kevin Goetz (07:21):

Well, you were also friends with his son at school.

*Robert Wagner (07:23):

Yeah. And Gable set me up to go to MGM. When I wanted to be an actor, I told him. And Randolph Scott, he was just a wonderful man to me. He was great. And I got to know all of them.

Kevin Goetz (07:37):

It's so crazy.

Robert Wagner (07:38):

Isn't that

Kevin Goetz (07:39):

Amazing? It's a divine intervention.

Robert Wagner (07:41):

I think you're right.

Kevin Goetz (07:42):

Not to mention that you weren't half bad looking. Well <laugh> I mean, Neil has pictures of you when you were just starting, I think even before you were at Fox. And I just look at this young boy and he's kind of a brooder and he's beautiful and it's like you had the makings of it. 

*Robert Wagner (08:05):

In those days, all the studios had young contract players and they would groom them in the hopes that they would become a star and be a valuable asset to the studios. And I got under contract to Fox and they made me a star. I mean, they did everything. They-

Kevin Goetz (08:21):

How did they do it?

Robert Wagner (08:22):

Oh, fan magazines, tours, small parts and big movies.

Kevin Goetz (08:29):

Acting classes. 

Robert Wagner (08:30):

Acting Classes. Dancing class.

Kevin Goetz (08:32):

Who was your acting coach?

Robert Wagner (08:33):

A woman by the name of Helena Sorell.

Kevin Goetz (08:35):

But also Sanford Meisner. Yes.

Robert Wagner (08:37):

'Cause

Kevin Goetz (08:38):

You know, I studied the Meisner technique and so I always said, "Oh, I have something in common with our day." <laugh>

Robert Wagner (08:44):

You studied with him.

Kevin Goetz (08:44):

I studied with Kathryn Gately and William Esper, who was his protege.

Robert Wagner (08:48):

Uh-huh.

Kevin Goetz (08:49):

But I remember Sam, at the time I knew him, he had in a voice box because he had had- Yes. ... throat cancer or something. And he took kind of, he had that thing, the machine thing, and he would talk that, you know.

Robert Wagner (09:00):

That's a very good impersonation.

Kevin Goetz (09:01):

<laugh> So when you were under contract, what was a typical week for you at the studio? Did they give you a dressing room right off the bat?

Robert Wagner (09:09):

Yeah, I had a small dressing room there, but you had everything there available.

Kevin Goetz (09:13):

Well, that's what I mean. So you had a place to go in between your classes and between your screen t-

Robert Wagner (09:17):

Oh yeah.

Kevin Goetz (09:18):

You were known as the screen test guy.

Robert Wagner (09:20):

Yes.

Kevin Goetz (09:21):

What does that mean?

*Robert Wagner (09:22):

Well, that means that I was available to do screen tests with all the young actresses that came in and, you know, I did Marilyn Monroe's two tests and that's when I first met her. She was, by the way, a wonderful person. Oh, yeah.

Kevin Goetz (09:39):

But you sensed the vulnerability and that insane sexuality coming through?

Robert Wagner (09:45):

Oh, yeah.

Kevin Goetz (09:46):

What did she test for?

Robert Wagner (09:47):

We were in a movie together called Let's Make It Legal with Claudette Colbert. I didn't have any scenes with her, but she was in it. But I liked her very much. She was a very, very nice person. Good sense of humor.

Kevin Goetz (09:59):

When you started the studio, who were some of the stars under contract?

Robert Wagner (10:03):

Well, Tyrone Power.

Kevin Goetz (10:05):

Oh, that little talent. <laugh>

Robert Wagner (10:07):

Yeah. Jean Turney.

Kevin Goetz (10:08):

Gene Tierney, Jesus.

Robert Wagner (10:10):

And Alice Faye was at the studio, right?

Kevin Goetz (10:12):

She's huge star.

Robert Wagner (10:13):

Yeah. Big, big time.

Kevin Goetz (10:15):

Wasn't Betty Grable too?

Robert Wagner (10:16):

Betty Grable. She was so nice. I liked her so much. She had a lot of fun with her.

Kevin Goetz (10:20):

Was there anyone you didn't like?

Robert Wagner (10:22):

Oh, no. Uh-uh.

Kevin Goetz (10:23):

It was a family, as you said.

Robert Wagner (10:25):

It was all family.

Kevin Goetz (10:26):

So when you get to work, would they give you the day before kind of your schedule? Like, did you have a handler at the studio?

Robert Wagner (10:33):

Well, I had one person who took care of me there when I go on tours and watched over me all the time was a man called Bill Smith. And Bill Smith was married to Ethel Merman.

Kevin Goetz (10:44):

Oh, that had to be something.

Robert Wagner (10:46):

Yeah, that was-

Kevin Goetz (10:47):

Bill, go over that. <laugh> no business like show business. <laugh> My God. You're talking about every legend. I'm just like speechless. And those listeners who are cinephiles or anyone who loves old Hollywood is gonna just go nuts to hear this because you begin to feel like you were really there. before you got to Fox. You didn't just get to Fox. You had some auditions.

Robert Wagner (11:15):

Oh, I auditioned at every studio, yeah. Ev- every studio had a young contract player's list.

Kevin Goetz (11:20):

But like an open call, RJ?

Robert Wagner (11:22):

No, you made arrangements to get interviewed by people after-

Kevin Goetz (11:26):

Do you mean you had an agent?

Robert Wagner (11:27):

Yeah.

Kevin Goetz (11:28):

Ah.

Robert Wagner (11:28):

Yeah. Famous artists and they-

Kevin Goetz (11:30):

Famous artists. Yeah.

Robert Wagner (11:31):

And they would- Set up an interview with the people that were running the, the casting and they were responsible for who they would choose to be in their classes. And I read for Paramount, for Columbia, MGM, Warners.

Kevin Goetz (11:47):

Didn't get any of those.

Robert Wagner (11:49):

Well, they didn't respond to me too much, but Fox did. And Helena Sorrell, she was really very, very nice to me and brought me in and I understand that Zanuck would run the films at night and

Kevin Goetz (12:03):

Of all the talent from the day.

*Robert Wagner (12:04):

Yeah. Well- From the audition. I did the screen test and then they'd run it at night and she was there and he looked at it and he said, "I, I don't know. " She said, "Just take a look at it again and watch this. " And he did and he said, "Oh, Helena, if you think he's right, then we'll take him." So I was signed for $75 a week.

Kevin Goetz (12:26):

$75 a week.

Robert Wagner (12:27):

55 take home. God. But I was in the movies and it was great.

Kevin Goetz (12:33):

Was that enough to get an apartment?

Robert Wagner (12:35):

Oh, yeah.

Kevin Goetz (12:36):

Well, you have roommates.

Robert Wagner (12:38):

No, I didn't. I was living at home then, and then I moved out and got an apartment on Devin Avenue right off of Beverly Glen. I was in the movies and that was it, you know?

Kevin Goetz (12:48):

God, the fact that you love it as much as you do is something, again, I relate to you because all I wanted since I'm a little boy was to be in show business.

Robert Wagner (12:58):

Yeah. You know what it's like.

Kevin Goetz (12:59):

Oh, do I.

Robert Wagner (13:00):

You and I have the same feelings about that.

Kevin Goetz (13:03):

Yeah. And we both have this passion and love for it. Let's talk about, again, I glossed over this, but I really wanna understand something. What I don't understand for young people coming into the studio is, did they give you, like, a schedule of what you were gonna do for the week, for the day, the day before, like a call sheet?

Robert Wagner (13:20):

No, they didn't, but you had everything available to you. We had classes. I-

Kevin Goetz (13:25):

How long did it take for them to put you into a picture?

Robert Wagner (13:28):

Not long.

Kevin Goetz (13:29):

Do you remember your first one?

Robert Wagner (13:32):

I was working as an extra and doing these interviews. It was luck.

Kevin Goetz (13:37):

Do you remember Zanuck? Oh, sure. Well- Do you remember getting his attention?

*Robert Wagner (13:40):

Oh, yes. And he put me in a film that really changed my whole career- Which one? ... with a song on my heart with Susan Hayward. And I played that shell shocked soldier, you know? And I said, "Mr. Zanuck, I don't have any lines." And he said, "Well, I think people will come out of the theater and they'll say, Who was that guy? And that's what they did. And that's what really set me off.

Kevin Goetz (14:03):

He really had a good eye, didn't he?

Robert Wagner (14:05):

I owe him a great deal because he made my life happen.

Kevin Goetz (14:09):

Were you there when his son Dick was brought on?

Robert Wagner (14:12):

No, I wasn't. That was later.

Kevin Goetz (14:14):

He came on like much later in the '60s.

Robert Wagner (14:17):

Yes. But I knew Dicky. I used to walk, <laugh> walk him on the beach when he was a little boy. He was a very nice man, very nice man. He was taken from us too young, way too young.

Kevin Goetz (14:28):

I knew Dick and he was fantastic and very, very kind to me.

Robert Wagner (14:33):

And he was very talented.

Kevin Goetz (14:34):

Yeah, he really was. He, by sheer will, had the movie Driving Miss Daisy made.

Robert Wagner (14:40):

Uh-huh.

Kevin Goetz (14:41):

He and Lily got rejections from everyone, but they had such tenacity. They finally got it made, which I thought was-

Robert Wagner (14:48):

Wonderful movie.

Kevin Goetz (14:49):

... was just great. I wanted to do a little bit of a fun little exercise here where I would mention a name of someone and sort of get your feelings about them and what they did for you, because I know it's a little bit of a loaded question of these questions, but Spencer Tracy.

Robert Wagner (15:06):

Spencer Tracy. What he did for me?

Kevin Goetz (15:09):

Yeah.

*Robert Wagner (15:10):

Well, I was in Broken Lance, directed by Eddie Dmytryk, and I played his son, and I owe him so much. He asked for me to be in the picture called The Mountain, which Eddie Dmytryk directed, and he gave me co-star billing above the title.

Kevin Goetz (15:28):

He gave you Co-Star billing above the title?

Robert Wagner (15:30):

So that took me out of the war movies, and there were a lot of very good actors and very attractive guys around then, and he lifted me out of that. I'm forever grateful to him for that, and I got to know him quite well. I was a pall bearer at his funeral and-

Kevin Goetz (15:48):

Oh, Lord.

Robert Wagner (15:49):

I really liked him so much. He was-

Kevin Goetz (15:51):

Did you know Katharine Hepburn well?

Robert Wagner (15:52):

I didn't know her well, but I knew her and spent some time with her in New York and in Hollywood. She was terrific. And my daughter, Katie, is named after her.

Kevin Goetz (16:03):

I did not know that.

Robert Wagner (16:04):

Yeah. She's a K-A-T-H-A-R-I-N-E.

Kevin Goetz (16:08):

Now, is it true that Clark Gable got you your sag card?

Robert Wagner (16:12):

No. Bill Wellman put me in a movie called The Happy Years, and I was in the picture, and then from that, I could join the Screen Actors Guild, and Randolph Scott signed the card for me. That's what started me off, you know?

Kevin Goetz (16:28):

Fred Astaire, you would also go home to his place when you were in boarding school.

Robert Wagner (16:34):

Yes. His son went to the same school I did.

Kevin Goetz (16:37):

And you guys were buddies.

*Robert Wagner (16:39):

And Kevin, I remember Fred Astaire picking me up at school, because the boarders could go, as I told you before, to private homes on the weekends. And I remember him picking me up and putting me in the backseat of his car and driving me. Now, I didn't know who Fred Astaire was. I just knew him. He was so kind and such a wonderful man to me.

Kevin Goetz (17:00):

He didn't dance all around the house when he got home. <laugh>

*Robert Wagner (17:04):

No, I'll tell you what he did do one time, which was incredible. We were in Rome doing It Takes a Thief, and we went to lunch. Fred and I went to lunch, and we came back, and there was this big ballroom in this estate where we were shooting on the location. And when we came in, we walked in, I walked in with him, and the crew was going, "Fred, Fred, Fred, Fred." And he started to dance, and he danced around his ballroom, kicked a couple of columns, you know, did the whole thing.

Kevin Goetz (17:34):

Oh.

Robert Wagner (17:34):

Oh, it was fantastic. It was unbelievable.

Kevin Goetz (17:37):

What a memory.

Robert Wagner (17:39):

Oh, it was great.

Kevin Goetz (17:40):

And what I love is that the guy you didn't know becomes the father of your friend, who turns out to be, of course, Fred Astaire. And then years later, you approach him to be your dad on your television show, and he said yes.

Robert Wagner (17:56):

That's amazing, isn't it?

Kevin Goetz (17:57):

Yeah. And- It's crazy.

Robert Wagner (17:58):

I was really very close with Fred. The great FA- 

Kevin Goetz (18:03):

How about Cary Grant?

Robert Wagner (18:03):

Cary Grant, yeah. That's another one.

Kevin Goetz (18:06):

You do a good impersonation.

*Robert Wagner (18:07):

Yes, uh, <laugh>. I really liked him so much, and he gave me some really good advice. I went to Cary and I said, "I've got this chance to do this wonderful character." And he said, "Well, just do you. " And I said, "Well, what do you mean?" He said, "Just play you. Don't try to do anybody else." I went to him when I did Thief, because it was, it takes a thief to catch a thief. That's what they were trying to get to put it all together, you know? Wasserman did that.

Kevin Goetz (18:39):

Wasserman got you into television, did he not?

*Robert Wagner (18:41):

Yes, he did, yeah. With that, I went up to the office and he said, "You know, I want you to be in television. I want you to be in this TV guide every week." He said, "I think this is your medium." Wow. "I think this is right for you. " I said, "Yeah, but”

Kevin Goetz (18:56):

At that time, television was like the redheaded stepchild.

*Robert Wagner (19:00):

Yeah. And I was in the movies. Said, "I, Jesus, I don't know. " He said, "Well, look, I want you to read the script and then I want you to meet the man who wrote it and created it, Roland Kibbee." So I met Kibbee and we started talking about it and he said, "I think you'd be great in this and da da da da da da da." And one thing led to another and I did it and it was a hit.

Kevin Goetz (19:24):

It also turned you into, in a way, a man because you were kind of like the hot guy and suddenly, and I know Marionhad some great styling advice and kind of pushed you into that more debonair.

Robert Wagner (19:39):

Yes, that's true.

Kevin Goetz (19:40):

And that was in Europe, right?

Robert Wagner (19:42):

Yeah. We did a lot of shows in Europe, but it started at Universal at the studio on the lot. We did that Senta Berger was in it and she was so hot and wonderful and we had Joe Louis and they gave me everything. They really set it up perfectly.

Kevin Goetz (19:59):

Another man you had a lot of affection for was Jimmy Cagney.

Robert Wagner (20:04):

I did very much.

Kevin Goetz (20:05):

What was it about Cagney that was so great? I mean, from a spectator standpoint, I can tell you what was so great, but as a friend, what, what made him special?

*Robert Wagner (20:14):

I met Jimmy Cagney before I worked with him in a film and I used to jog his horses. He had trotters and I was into horses pretty heavily and I used to jog his horses for him and he was one of the most marvelous men. And I died in his arms in a John Ford movie. That was a big break and I thought, oh my God, here I am with Jimmy Cagney. I was thrilled. You can imagine, Kevin. 

Kevin Goetz (20:46):

I just look at you going, "God, damn." <laugh>

Robert Wagner (20:48):

Boy, it was thrilling, and he was great to me.

Kevin Goetz (20:51):

When we come back, I wanna unpack that story, talk about some of the female stars, and so many other things. We'll be back in a moment. Listeners, the Motion Picture and Television Fund is a nonprofit charitable organization that supports working and retired members of the entertainment community. This wonderfully run organization offers assistance for living and aging with dignity and purpose in the areas of health and social services, including temporary financial assistance, case management, and residential living. And has been a crucial lifeline to thousands during and beyond critical times that our industry continues to experience. To learn more, visit mptf.com. Please join me in helping others in our industry during times of need. There are so many ways to offer support and get involved. Thank you.We're back with the legendary and iconic R.J. Wagner. By the way, I wanna say it's R.J. Wagner. And when I had heard you and tried to be cool before I knew you, I would say- <laugh> ... RJ Wagner.

(22:06):

And it's not RJ. Who put the emphasis on the RJ? Is that you or someone from the studio?

Robert Wagner (22:13):

I was a junior.

Kevin Goetz (22:14):

Oh, Robert Junior. I see R.J.

Robert Wagner (22:18):

I wanted to be billed as R.J. Wagner. And there was a man at the studio at 20th Century Fox who said, "There's one other person who has initials, and that's KT Stevens, and she's not working, and you are. " <laugh> So that was it.

Kevin Goetz (22:35):

KT Stevens? Yeah. That's great. I wanna talk about some of the women that you work with. Ah. Bette Davis, very influential to you, huh?

*Robert Wagner (22:43):

Oh, yeah. She was great. I loved her, and I produced a movie. What was it? Madam Sin. And she was great in it, and I loved her very much.

Kevin Goetz (22:55):

What made you go into producing?

Robert Wagner (22:57):

Well, I was doing the television show and ...

Kevin Goetz (23:00):

This was to take a thief?

Robert Wagner (23:01):

Yeah. Well, both of my-

Kevin Goetz (23:02):

Did you produce your television show?

*Robert Wagner (23:04):

Show? No, but usually the, you had a great deal to do with it. The people that were involved in had a great deal to do with what the material was and who was in it and all of that. But she was fabulous. I really loved her a lot. You know, she said a very nice thing about me which wound up in the New York Times about my work and it takes a thief and it was at the time that she was not working. And so I called her and I said, "Bette, it was wonderful what you said about me and wound up in the Times." I said, "So would you like to do the show?" 'Cause she liked the show very much. And I said, "Would you like to do this? " She said, "Yes." So we wrote a character for her called Bessie Krindle and she came out to Los Angeles and did this character for us and she was great.

(23:52):

And from that, she rolled into doing the shows on stage across the country.

Kevin Goetz (23:56):

I'd love to, RJ. <laugh> I love to do. Bessie Kringle, Kringle, whatever. <laugh>

Robert Wagner (24:05):

That's a good

Kevin Goetz (24:06):

Impersonation. Well, I watched her on all those talk shows. Wasn't she the best? Oh yeah. She would just unfiltered what she would say.

Robert Wagner (24:15):

Yeah, she was- 

Kevin Goetz (24:16):

It’s like she didn't give a damn. She just said it like it was. Was that her real personality?

Robert Wagner (24:21):

Yes, it was.

Kevin Goetz (24:22):

Damn.

Robert Wagner (24:23):

That is. I was just gonna say that was a real personality. Who else do you do besides Bette Davis?

Kevin Goetz (24:28):

I do Kara Channing. Diamond you a girl. <laugh> Let me ask you this. How about Barbara Stanwyck? I remember saying to you once, "Didn't you sleep with Barbara Stanwyck?" And you said to me, "I had a relationship with Barbara Stamwick." And I thought it was very classy. Tell us about that.

Robert Wagner (24:50):

Well, she was a, such a special person. And I was with her for about three years and she was absolutely a marvelous lady. A great actress too. Yeah. Well, she-

Kevin Goetz (25:01):

She never won an Academy Award, isn't that funny?

Robert Wagner (25:04):

Yeah. She was dominated, I think, five times, I think.

Kevin Goetz (25:07):

Something like that.

Robert Wagner (25:08):

Yeah.

Kevin Goetz (25:09):

One of those odd people who snuck by, like Cary Grant. You know what I mean? Who never got the Oscar. I think they probably got honorary Oscars, both of them they did.

Robert Wagner (25:19):

They did, yeah.

Kevin Goetz (25:20):

Yeah.

Robert Wagner (25:20):

Both of them did, yeah.

Kevin Goetz (25:22):

But I just thought that she was such an important contributor to the film business, to- Oh, she did. ... important movies.

Robert Wagner (25:28):

Yeah. Early on, too, you know?

Kevin Goetz (25:31):

Totally. You've worked with so many directors. Your favorite director was or is-

Robert Wagner (25:39):

I liked very much working with Ron Shelton.

Kevin Goetz (25:41):

Ron's a marvelous director and quite a compliment to Ron because you've worked with so many of the greats who taught you probably a tremendous amount.

Robert Wagner (25:51):

Yeah. Henry Hathaway, John Ford.

Kevin Goetz (25:54):

John Ford, there's an interesting story there.

Robert Wagner (25:56):

Oh, yes. Well, John Ford knocked me flat on the ground.

Kevin Goetz (26:00):

Not your favorite man.

Robert Wagner (26:01):

No, he, he didn't turn out to be my favorite. He could be very rough.

Kevin Goetz (26:06):

He looked like a real curmudgeon, but tell me about Ford and how he treated you, quite frankly.

Robert Wagner (26:12):

Well, he always had somebody that he picked on, on a, on a movie. There was always somebody in the barrel, and I was the guy on that show. I was with Dan Dailey and Bill Demerest and Jimmy Cagney.

Kevin Goetz (26:28):

And- Did they protect you or ...

*Robert Wagner (26:29):

Yeah, they did. I would have won the Academy Award if they put the camera on me when he knocked me down. I was so surprised. Here I was in this movie and he was the number one director. He was a marvelous director, as you well know. And suddenly I'm on the ground and he's knocked me down.

Kevin Goetz (26:50):

He literally knocked you down?

Robert Wagner (26:51):

Oh, yeah.

Kevin Goetz (26:52):

Punched you?

Robert Wagner (26:53):

Yeah.

Kevin Goetz (26:54):

What was the reason?

*Robert Wagner (26:56):

We used to have music on the stage all the time. And it said in the script that I react to the music. So I looked over to where the music was playing and he said, "Cut." He said, "What are you doing?" I said, "Well, it says that I'm, I'm supposed to listen to the music." He said, "No, you don't, you don't ." And I said, "Okay, Mr. Ford." And he turned and, and I turned and he whacked me.

Kevin Goetz (27:26):

Can you imagine that happening today? He would never work again. The cancel culture.

Robert Wagner (27:31):

Yeah, maybe. I don't know.

Kevin Goetz (27:32):

Oh, man. But it sure woke me up. I mean, how do you get back into your character after that and act seriously? Like how do you get back into, like I'd be just forget -

Robert Wagner (27:43):

Well, I was a little bit shaken up, but Jimmy was very nice to me. He said, "Don't worry, kid. Just take it easy."

Kevin Goetz (27:50):

I've heard John Wayne did the same with other people who've had run-ins with Mr. Ford.

*Robert Wagner (27:54):

Actually, I was in another sequence and I saw him pick up a rock. I was in a trench and he was gonna throw it at me. And I got up and moved and I started to go after him. And John Wayne stopped me. Put him around. He says "Just take it easy, kid. Take it easy."

Kevin Goetz (28:15):

You would've beat the shit out of him at that point.

Robert Wagner (28:17):

Well, I was a little hot, as you can imagine.

Kevin Goetz (28:18):

Absolutely.

Robert Wagner (28:20):

And I was young. Yeah,

Kevin Goetz (28:22):

But that was a really unfair power situation. I find something very interesting. So what we're living through right now is the end of a, I don't know, 45-year era. The modern blockbuster era that began in, let's say the late '70s. For decades, the theatrical model was essentially stable. There was no streaming, no digital disruption, no competing platform fundamentally changing audience behavior. Today, that stability is gone. I mean, streaming, technology, shifting habits have completely redefined how audiences now consume movies. Kind of reminds me of the collapse of the old studio system when an entire structure that once felt permanent suddenly wasn't. And you experienced a version of that shift firsthand. What was that like for you when it became clear that the era you had thrived in was ending? What did you think you were going to do?

Robert Wagner (29:17):

A lot of the business moved to Europe. 

Kevin Goetz (29:21):

Tell me about that. That was sort of the genesis, right, of the independent film movement, and a large part of it took place in Europe, correct?

Robert Wagner (29:28):

Yeah. And also, a lot of the stars went there. I went there and moved to Rome. That's when I did The Panther.

Kevin Goetz (29:35):

But you were no longer with the studio?

Robert Wagner (29:37):

No. Buddy Adler came in and they just dropped everybody, you know?

Kevin Goetz (29:40):

That's what I mean. But what was it like when you heard the news that they were dropping you?

Robert Wagner (29:45):

Well, there's always something.

Kevin Goetz (29:47):

You mean you didn't think you weren't going to work?

Robert Wagner (29:50):

No, I thought I'd probably be able to get some work somewhere.

Kevin Goetz (29:51):

Very cool. I didn't know that. I thought most people would be like, "I have a certain lifestyle. I'm making a salary. What the hell am I gonna do?

Robert Wagner (30:01):

Well, I think that's true. I think that happened with a lot of people. I was single at the time. Natalie and I had divorced and-

Kevin Goetz (30:09):

You said, "Why not? Let me go to Europe."

Robert Wagner (30:11):

Yeah. What's next?

Kevin Goetz (30:13):

And you started working quite a bit.

*Robert Wagner (30:15):

Yes, I did. I worked with Sophia and Vittorio De Sica, and that was just great. I mean, it was a wonderful opportunity. And Blake, with The Panther, which is my favorite movie of all time.

Kevin Goetz (30:29):

Really? Oh yeah.

Robert Wagner (30:29):

We had such a great- I didn't know

Kevin Goetz (30:31):

That. Yeah. Why was it your favorite movie?

Robert Wagner (30:33):

Oh, we all had such a great time. Sellers see him create that character and he and Blake together create Clouseau. You

Kevin Goetz (30:40):

Were wonderful in that.

Robert Wagner (30:41):

Oh, thank you very much.

Kevin Goetz (30:43):

You meet Maron there?

Robert Wagner (30:45):

No, Marion was under Contractor Fox when I first was there. I knew Marion a long time before that.

Kevin Goetz (30:52):

Did she come to Europe with you or how did that work?

Robert Wagner (30:56):

Well, she was married to Stanley Donan and they had divorced and she moved to Europe. Got it. And she ended up in Rome? And she was in Rome, yeah. I see. I always liked Marion. She was always terrific. We both had the same haircuts and <laugh>.

Kevin Goetz (31:12):

And of course, you guys produced the best of all, which was Katie.

Robert Wagner (31:17):

Yeah, we produced Katie- Your beautiful-

Kevin Goetz (31:19):

Marvelous. Katie, who I didn't know was named after Katherine Hepburn.

Robert Wagner (31:23):

Yes. K-

Kevin Goetz (31:23):

K-A-T-H-A-R-I-N-E.

Robert Wagner (31:25):

I- N-E,

Kevin Goetz (31:26):

Yeah. And you then get the call essentially from Lew Wasserman saying, "You should really consider this television thing."

Robert Wagner (31:34):

Yes, that's when I moved into television, and that became a hit,

Kevin Goetz (31:39):

So- You almost became more famous in television than you were in movies.

Robert Wagner (31:42):

Yes, I think so. Well, television was starting off and then it was big time and-

Kevin Goetz (31:47):

And you produced, and so it really was a strong part of your legacy. I do want to ask you about this whole notion of celebrity, because today you have Travis Kelce and Taylor Swift, Kendall Jenner and Timothy Chalamet, Brad Pitt and Angelina Jolie, and there was you and Natalie Wood. You were in the thick of that paparazzi. What was the head trip like of you guys going out?

Robert Wagner (32:19):

Well, I was in Rome when the paparazzi first started.

Kevin Goetz (32:23):

The term paparazzi.

Robert Wagner (32:25):

Yeah. And the Veneto and all of that. And Richard and Elizabeth were the hot thing then, you know?

Kevin Goetz (32:32):

Richard and Elizabeth, of course.

Robert Wagner (32:34):

Yeah.

Kevin Goetz (32:34):

They were ... But you weren't far behind though, right?

Robert Wagner (32:39):

Yeah, I got a little action about all of that, but-

Kevin Goetz (32:42):

But could you and Natalie go out?

Robert Wagner (32:45):

Yeah, we'd go out. We didn't have much problem. We'd go out to restaurants and cameramen would be outside and they were very nice. We knew a lot of them and they took pictures of us and asked us questions and we said, "Great." And got in the car and went home.

Kevin Goetz (32:58):

<laugh> You were, and I know you are, the most extraordinary father because we know the kids, after Natalie passed, you essentially had all the kids come together, including Stanley Donen's kids, Josh and Peter Donen, the late Peter Donen. Josh, as we know, was a great agent and became a terrific producer. But also Natasha Gregson Wagner, I knew her father peripherally, but Gareth Wigan I knew. Yeah. She's a delight, and of course, the beautiful Courtney, who was at our place the other night. So the three girls, and Josh, and Peter, it was like the Brady Bunch. <laugh> That you did this. And didn't you have a marvelous woman called Willie May?

Robert Wagner (33:45):

Yes. Oh, yes.

Kevin Goetz (33:47):

Wasn't she like a mom?

Robert Wagner (33:49):

Yeah, she really was. And she was part of our family. Well, she lived with us, you know, for years, I mean.

Kevin Goetz (33:57):

You have a great story about Mark Harmon when he first got to Hollywood, and you lived, I believe, in the flats-

Robert Wagner (34:06):

Yes. ...

Kevin Goetz (34:07):

Of Beverly Hills.

Robert Wagner (34:07):

Beverly Hills, yeah.

Kevin Goetz (34:08):

And Mark Harmon was a starving actor. This says so much about you, RJ. Mark Harmon, if I'm getting it right, sent a letter out to put in people's mailboxes.

Robert Wagner (34:20):

Uh-huh.

Kevin Goetz (34:21):

Do you have a guest house or a place that I could rent or live- That's right. ... while I'm struggling to be an actor.

Robert Wagner (34:30):

That's right.

Kevin Goetz (34:31):

One person responded to him, and that was you. What'd you say to him?

Robert Wagner (34:38):

Said l- I would love to have him be there, but it was filled.

Kevin Goetz (34:41):

But my God, who effing does that? I'll tell you who does it, folks. RJ. You know, Neil and I are blessed to have so many wonderful friends in the business. And you embody one of the qualities that we regard like the highest, and that is you're such a good listener. You genuinely care about what we're doing. I know you and Neil probably talk three or four times a week. I listen to many of those conversations, but I am just struck by the fact that you still have insatiable curiosity and deep compassion.

Robert Wagner (35:15):

Oh, Kevin, thank you. Thank you very much. Easy to do with you. And congratulations on your book and how it's sold.

Kevin Goetz (35:24):

Oh my God.

Robert Wagner (35:25):

How to Score in Hollywood. I mean, uh, it's been, you've had a great response to that and I’m so proud of it.

Kevin Goetz (35:30):

Thank you so much. I'm really thrilled. You know what it's like. It takes so long to write these books. It's so difficult. And then you have great distribution from these wonderful publishers, Simon and Schuster, second to none, but the marketing is where you have to really get out there- Yeah. ... and promote the hell out of it.

Robert Wagner (35:51):

Well, you've done that.

Kevin Goetz (35:53):

I'm trying. It's well worth it. Thank you so much. So appreciate that. Do you feel as though there's something you want people to say about you at this point in your life?

Robert Wagner (36:06):

That's a good question. I've been so fortunate to be able to do what you wanna do in life and, and- And

Kevin Goetz (36:15):

Never veer from it.

*Robert Wagner (36:16):

No. And it's been good to me. I've been successful in it and I'm just a very lucky and fortunate man. I mean, I got my kids and my wife and I thought I was finished when I lost Natalie and I came back from that through my children and through Jill and through you and Neil and it makes a big difference.

Kevin Goetz (36:41):

I told RJ, "You know, I've made people cry on my program, and now he's fucking making me cry." <laugh> All right. I gotta ask you about Jill, because Jill and I joke that we're like brother and sister from another mother. I know. Okay. She is one of the smartest women I have ever met. She and I do the New York Times crossword puzzle every day. She did the Sunday in 38 minutes this last week, and I know I'm not the first person to call her such a brilliant woman. Henry Kissinger called her one of the smartest people he's ever met.

Robert Wagner (37:18):

She's very, very bright.

Kevin Goetz (37:20):

What do you love about Jill so much?

Robert Wagner (37:23):

All the things that you said, she's got a great sense of humor and she is bright.

Kevin Goetz (37:29):

I thought you were gonna say she has great emeralds. <laugh> Let's face it, her taste in the finer things in life is pretty extraordinary. She sources food. She's a major chef. She studied cooking in France. She knows style and loves her beautiful jewelry. I love that about her. She and I can talk for hours about that.

Robert Wagner (37:53):

Well, I wanna tell you I wouldn't be here if it wasn't for her.

Kevin Goetz (37:57):

Oh.

Robert Wagner (37:57):

Because she really held me up when she came into my life. I met her when she was 16 years old.

Kevin Goetz (38:04):

I know. Tell me about that.

Robert Wagner (38:05):

She was in a contract at Fox and I was-

Kevin Goetz (38:07):

But you didn't know her.

*Robert Wagner (38:08):

No, I didn't know her. I just met her then. And then as the years went on, we did a couple of films together and she was in Heart to Heart, you know, the pilot and our paths crossed, but we were never involved romantically at all. I was married at that time and she had several cars parked in her driveway. <laugh> And I always-

Kevin Goetz (38:30):

Very polite way of saying that she's gonna get a kick out of that when she hears this.

Robert Wagner (38:34):

Yeah. <laugh> She's heard it. She doesn't like it too much. <laugh> But it’s true.

Kevin Goetz (38:39):

I think we're good. I mean, we just gave Jill so many compliments and thrust so much love upon her.

Robert Wagner (38:46):

She's a wonderful woman. She's been so great to me.

Kevin Goetz (38:49):

The other person who people think you were married to, who people think was a romance of yours was Stephanie Powers.

Robert Wagner (38:57):

Oh, Stephanie, yeah. A lot of people think that we were married.

Kevin Goetz (39:01):

Isn't that funny? Neil, the other night said to me, "You know you're interviewing RJ because of me. I brought RJ into our lives." Yes. And I said, "Well, you know, Stephanie is in our lives because of me. " <laugh> Because she did my first movie for Lifetime called Someone Is Watching with Margot Kidder and that was, what, 30 years ago or something like almost 30 years ago. But what I find so funny is we knew Stephanie and traveled the world with Stephanie and she became one of our best friends. And then you come into our lives not through Stephanie, and yet the association between RJ Wagner and Stephanie Powers is so great.

Robert Wagner (39:42):

She's amazing.

Kevin Goetz (39:43):

Smart as a whip, huh? Another one speaks five languages and-

Robert Wagner (39:47):

Yeah, but she's a marvelous, marvelous person. Great sense of humor.

Kevin Goetz (39:51):

Great actress.

*Robert Wagner (39:52):

Yeah. And I wanted her to be Jennifer Hart and so did Tom Mankiewicz. I had worked with her before when I did Thief, and I always liked her, and I thought the chemistry with us would be terrific. I just felt it.

Kevin Goetz (40:08):

I love that, because what Helena Sorrell did to you is what you did for the brass to get Stephanie that part.

Robert Wagner (40:15):

Yeah, I did. I did that, and so did Tom Mankiewicz. We wanted her, and that was it. They wanted Natalie and I to do it together. They wanted me to do it with a couple of other ladies, and I just always thought that Stephanie was the girl. I knew it from the beginning, and I thought ... I mean, she was wonderful on the show. I mean, just great.

Kevin Goetz (40:39):

So great. Oh. And the two of you. And of course, call out to the wonderful Lionel Stander.

Robert Wagner (40:45):

Oh, yes. Well, Lionel. He was the glue.

Kevin Goetz (40:48):

He was the glue, but he was also, again, you, Mr. RJ, believed in him after the blacklist.

Robert Wagner (40:56):

Oh,

Kevin Goetz (40:56):

Yes. Very much so. Well, not everyone did.

Robert Wagner (41:00):

No,

Kevin Goetz (41:00):

They didn't. He was on the blacklist.

Robert Wagner (41:02):

Yeah, he was.

Kevin Goetz (41:03):

During McCarthyism.

Robert Wagner (41:04):

Yes, he was.

Kevin Goetz (41:04):

One of the great stains of our business.

Robert Wagner (41:07):

Yes. One of the biggest.

Kevin Goetz (41:10):

And he became one of your dear, dear friends.

Robert Wagner (41:12):

Yes, he did. And his daughter is my friend too.

Kevin Goetz (41:15):

And so is his wife, Stefana, who now is married to Frank. Yeah. I'm sorry, listeners. We are too much in the weeds here, but I have to tell you, we all love each other. Jen Standers, amazing. And Jill just told me last night, which I didn't know, that you named all of your dogs after celebrities.

Robert Wagner (41:34):

Uh-huh.

Kevin Goetz (41:34):

And right now you've got Duke.

Robert Wagner (41:36):

Yeah.

Kevin Goetz (41:36):

But you had Larry.

Robert Wagner (41:38):

Larry.

Kevin Goetz (41:38):

Yeah.

Robert Wagner (41:39):

Olivia. I say Olivier.

Kevin Goetz (41:41):

But also you had Max. And I said, "Well, why didn't you call the dog Lionel?" And Jill said, "Because they're from Germany, the dogs, the German Shepherds, and they have to have a name that sounds kind of like the German name."

Robert Wagner (41:52):

Yeah, that's true.

Kevin Goetz (41:53):

That's great. RJ, we can talk forever, but I wanna be respectful of your time.

Robert Wagner (41:59):

You've been so nice to me and I really appreciate it so much.

Kevin Goetz (42:02):

I love you so much.

Robert Wagner (42:03):

I love you too. You mean the world to me.

Kevin Goetz (42:06):

Thank you. To our listeners, I hope you enjoyed this conversation. For more insights into filmmaking, audience testing, and the business of Hollywood, I invite you to check out my books, Audienceology, and How to Score in Hollywood at Amazon, or through my website at KevinGoetz360.com. You can also follow me on my social media. Next time on Don't Kill the Messenger, I'll welcome director, writer, producer, and former stuntman, Ric Roman Waugh. Until next time, I'm Kevin Goetz, and to you, our listeners, I appreciate you being part of the movie-making process. Your opinions matter.

Host: Kevin Goetz
Guest: Robert Wagner
Producer: Kari Campano
Writers: Kevin Goetz, Darlene Hayman, and Kari Campano
Audio Engineer: Gary Forbes (DG Entertainment)