Podcast: Don't Kill the Messenger with Movie Research Expert Kevin Goetz
Guest: Ric Roman Waugh

Interview Transcript:

Announcer (00:03):

From script to screen, every film is brought to life by visionary creatives and executives, all sharing one mission to captivate the audience. Hosted by award-winning movie strategist Kevin Goetz, our podcast, Don't Kill the Messenger, offers a filmmaking masterclass through intimate conversations with Hollywood's most influential voices. And now, your host, Kevin Goetz.

Kevin Goetz (00:29):

Action as a genre can deliver spectacle. But when it's anchored in character, it becomes something more. It resonates on a human level. My guest today, Ric Roman Waugh, has built a career understanding that distinction. He began as a stuntman, learning filmmaking from the inside out, physically, practically, and collaboratively. That foundation has shaped his approach behind the camera, where tension isn't driven by scale alone, but by emotional stakes. In films like Shot Caller, Angel Has Fallen, Greenland, Kandahar, and most recently Shelter. He brings grounded realism and human depth to large-scale storytelling. Reminding us that even the biggest set pieces only work when we care about the people inside them. Ric, it is great to have you here. Thanks so much for joining my show.

Ric Roman Waugh (01:28):

I'm glad somebody gets what I'm trying to do. Thank you for that intro.

Kevin Goetz (01:32):

Oh, man. Ric, here's how I call you. For some reason, every time I think about you, I think scrappy. I think piecing your projects together, grassroots, not the conventional way. Would that be fair?

Ric Roman Waugh (01:52):

Yeah. I think the proof is in the pudding. Every single one of my movies to date, even though I'm very blessed to have a first look deal with Lionsgate with my pal, Adam Fogelson, every single one of my movies has been a negative pickup, which means that they were put together independently, packaged, blood, sweat, and tears, roll up your sleeves, and go get them made. And then hopefully they're good enough to put on big studio distribution and then get them out to a wide audience. But I haven't made one studio movie to date.

Kevin Goetz (02:23):

And I sort of know that because usually about five, six weeks into your director's cut, I get a phone call from you and it'll be something like, uh, "We're getting close. We need to test. Can we talk about what we wanna do, what we wanna accomplish, et cetera." And you and I have always had this wonderful symbiosis, this understanding of each other, both artistically and professionally.

*Ric Roman Waugh (02:47):

Which we'll get into, like I came up through the stunt world and you knew that the sun was greater than the parts. And it's about bringing everybody to the table. And when you go up through the stunt world like the way I did very early on, I'll give you the people that I felt were galvanizers who made everybody come to the table and give them their best, but also did it in a respectful way of demanding the best. And that's my phone calls with you. It's guys like Tony Scott. It's Richard Donner. And I won't give you all of the names of the people that I felt were the complete antithesis that were like cancers. They killed the spirit on set. They didn't allow anybody into the process. And the movies suffered and everybody suffered through them. And Tony was my really true mentor, the person that would allow me to bug him on set, give me the time of day, and try to find my place in the sandbox.

(03:44):

And I love the way that he commanded by respecting everybody around him and asking them to be the rock stars that'll make him shine. And so I've always tried to have that collaborative experience for everybody that I'm involved with from the very beginning of my development phase to prep, to shooting. And you learn through the School of Hard Knocks that putting out movies is more than half of the battle, and it's positioning them the right way and trying to thread this needle that I keep trying to thread, which is to make commercial fare, but that has something to say that can be socially relevant, that can grab you.

Kevin Goetz (04:22):

Some social relevance. We're gonna get into that more deeply in a moment. I do wanna call out Tony Scott because he was one of my favorites. Every time I see Ridley, I think I mentioned Tony, I just can't help myself. And he was a marvelous collaborator, and he had this certain kind of joy for life. So when I heard that he had passed, it was one of those five, I'd say, in my entire life, gut punches. And I'm sure you experienced the same thing.

Ric Roman Waugh (04:52):

Well, you know this, we're not alone. He touched so many people, so many lives that people were really affected by it. The only other name I really will name drop because he means the world to me is Jerry Bruckheimer. I had worked on a number of movies as a stuntman that he produced.

Kevin Goetz (05:08):

He's just the best.

*Ric Roman Waugh (05:09):

Yeah, because he's another one that is the no bullshit, transparent type of producer, but also cares, cares about everybody around him, cares about what he's making, doesn't disparage. And he was another one that was a great mentor to me of shooting me straight. Even when I had it wrong, he would call me on it and say, "No, did you look at this angle?" And I'd go, "Oh my God, he's totally right." And that's what you need. You need people around you because this business is so tricky. And when you come from my world, which is considered below the line, and then you start dancing above the line and you're dealing with producers and executives in a very different way, you just have no training ground for that. So without, like, these true north stars like Tony Scott and Jerry Bruckheimer, without having those people to go confide to, you really can lose your way.

Kevin Goetz (05:58):

Well, Jerry was a guest on this podcast. I'm not sure you heard the episode, but he was marvelous. He's a true friend. I want to go back to your stunt background. Where do you grow up? What's the young Ric like in terms of his desire to be in the movie business?

Ric Roman Waugh (06:13):

It was a really fascinating childhood. My father, Fred Waugh, was in a group in the very early stages of this stunt business called Stunts Unlimited.

Kevin Goetz (06:24):

That was the place.

*Ric Roman Waugh (06:26):

Yeah. And that whole thing was the godfather to us all Hal Needham. And these group of people that I grew up around, I mean, I was on the set of McHugh when I was a baby and, you know, Paint Your Wagon with Clean Eastwood and seeing all these movie stars, but I didn't even care who they were. I mean, the guys doing all of the stunts and doing these incredible things, they were my heroes. And it was a way to grow up in the business and really have a front seat of how things were done.

Kevin Goetz (06:54):

What did Hal teach you specifically? You know, I just went out with his wife, Ellie, last week. We went to see a show together and then had dinner. I'd like to know because he was the godfather, I think, of the stunt business and even received an Academy Award, a special honorary Oscar. What'd you learn from him?

Ric Roman Waugh (07:11):

Character. How to be a standup person in this business that can really be full of egos that can backstab, throw each under the bus, lie to get things done. And I really mean that, like, it's a, a very cutthroat business we're in, but he really was a man of character and demanded respect and always gave respect to those around him. And the other true trait about Hal was loyalty, I'll give you an example of that. We hadn't seen him in a number of years, and my father passed away probably about 11 years now, and we had a memorial service in Los Angeles for him, and in walked Hal Needham, and seen him in years, and he walked up to me, and just gave me the chills. It meant the world, and he says, "I hate funerals. I don't go to anybody's funeral, but your dad meant the world to me.”

(07:58):

Oh. And I told him I’d be there and I'm here. And what we didn't know is Hal also was sick, and he passed away the next year. Ah. And it's that type of tradition and loyalty and things about the business that I absolutely love. And that's what was a gut punch about Tony Scott, because he lived the exact same way. He was such a great character. And I'm trying to be a part of that. I hope I have an ounce of what those men had, but to try to be a person of character and respectful of this process, and to be good mentors to those around me now, and trying to help people along the way to the way that people helped me.

Kevin Goetz (08:37):

So from Southern California? 

Ric Roman Waugh (08:40):

We originated in Silmar, California, and it was all branches and farms. There was nothing there. And then the really big earthquake, which I think was 1971 Earthquake, I think it was.

Kevin Goetz (08:50):

71. You were born in 68, right? Yep.

Ric Roman Waugh (08:52):

So leveled everything. I barely remember being thrown across the room at like two and a half, three years old. Wow. And it's all I remembered. And then eventually, a lot of the stunt families all moved to a little town called Agua Dulce, Sweetwater. It was out in the Santa Clarita Valley.

Kevin Goetz (09:08):

I know exactly. I shot a commercial there and it's got all the rocks out there.

Ric Roman Waugh (09:12):

Yeah. Montie Montana lived out there and, yep, all these different old cowboys and, and it was just a great place to grow up. What was interesting about it is it removed me even further from Hollywood because you really got into a different place of growing up in a very small town atmosphere around a lot of your peers that were in the stunt community, but also just normal people. So then when it really came time to starting to stunt coordinate and starting to work in the business and you're driving down that 14 freeway to go to work the way that we did, you know, with the old Thomas guide, you get your Thomas Guide out and figure out where in the city you were going to. It always felt like you were entering a metropolis from where we were because I grew up in the proverbial one horse town.

(09:56):

I mean, there was not even a gas station. There was a general store and the closest thing was, you know, 15 milesaway from me.

Kevin Goetz (10:02):

What's the most exciting stunt you ever did? Got your adrenaline just worked up.

*Ric Roman Waugh (10:08):

My favorite movie to work on, and I'm not alone, was Days of Thunder, because I was a racer. I raced motorcycles, I raced cars, and then when we were asked to go do that movie, it was like a dream come true, because you're getting to go 200 miles an hour around Daytona Speedway and Atlanta and Darlington. And I remember one time, you know, Tony and Jerry, we were all making this together and the guys came over and they said, "Hey, you're gonna go do laps with somebody." And I'm like, "Okay." And I look over and there's Cale Yarborough who was one of my childhood heroes, one in Indianapolis 500 and so forth. And I almost put him in the wall because I was so enamored, kept looking over at him and not watching my line. But that was exciting. But then when you start crashing cars on purpose at 180, 190, 200 miles an hour, it wakes everybody up because we always said everybody's fast till they hit the wall.

(10:59):

And when they hit the wall, then you know who's really fast because they'll hit the accelerator again. And so that was an adrenaline rush. I can't remember if we were there for three months or more, you know, um, racing every single day and crashing and just living the life with that. But that was by far one of my favorite things and stunts, um, to be a part of.

Kevin Goetz (11:15):

What made you want to make the transition to directing? Like there had to be something, or was it over a period of time where you said, "I have something to say, this is the new path I'd like to take.”

Ric Roman Waugh (11:30):

I'm gonna unpack it in an interesting way. It's like, I have twin 18-year-old boys right now and they've interned on three of my last films and one kind of gravitated towards camera and one gravitated towards visual effects.

Kevin Goetz (11:45):

And what are your son's names?

Ric Roman Waugh (11:46):

Braden and Jackson. Pete Cavaciuti, who's one of the best camera operators in the world, had kind of taken Jackson under his wing and suddenly I saw that spark in my son's eyes. I saw that he caught the bug. He found his lane and the same thing happened with Braden in visual effects with my supervisor, Mark Masicott. Mark guided him and I saw the same spark and it's, it's just amazing to see. Tony Scott did that for me. Prior to that, I remember the fun story of our family was my dad had sent me to like this Tony Robbins camp for a week. It wasn't Tony Robbins, but it was the equivalent of like, go find your legacy, your goals in life and so forth and spend all of this money-

Kevin Goetz (12:28):

Positive thinking.

Ric Roman Waugh (12:30):

Yeah, because he never wanted me to be a stunt man. He wanted me to be an actor. And I just had, I had, there's no part of me wanting to.

Kevin Goetz (12:34):

I'm sorry, that's so funny. He didn't want me to be <laugh> a stuntman. He wanted to be an actor. Yeah. Most favorites would say, "I don't want you to be an actor. I don't need to be a stuntman. Yeah. I don't even be in show business," you know?

*Ric Roman Waugh (12:47):

Yeah, he was like, "Go be an actor." And I'm like, "No, I wanna be an actor." So he's like, "You need to find your place." So he spent this money, sent me to this, like, Tony Robbins thing, and then the parents all come the next weekend and, and I'm like, "God, it's the best thing you ever did." 'Cause it was, by the way, it really taught me to be goal oriented, how to really go put a plan together to, to seek what you wanna do. And I was like, "This is the best thing that ever happened to me. I know exactly what I wanna do. " And he's like, "What is it? What is it? " And I'm like, "I wanna be a snutman." <laugh> And, and I thought he was gonna punch me. It was, you know, he's like, "I spent all this money for that.”

(13:20):

" But it was interesting because what it really did is it showed me a different lens of that I could be more than you think at that age. You can really strive for something. And it was being around Tony and watching how fearless he was about how he would do things, which is my favorite thing I try to tell younger filmmakers, you know, told my sons the same thing. There's a lot of boring time on a set. Don't be the knucklehead playing around and screwing around. Watch. Not only find your place in the sandbox, but watch how people are doing things. So you get to watch how things are being shot and going, "God, I never thought about doing it that way." Or, "I don't think I would have done it that I would have done this way." And what you learn from guys like Tony Scott is how to be fearless and be your own brand.

(14:04):

And that really kind of, he was my lightning rod. You know, whether he knew it or not, he was that spark I needed to go, "I wanna go do this and be my own brand, be my own voice, and go do things differently."

Kevin Goetz (14:18):

That's beautiful. And what about the practicality of directing? Your first movie was ...

Ric Roman Waugh (14:26):

It was a very tough road. I'm really grateful for that. The younger generation are really getting a seat at the table that has been deserved. But when I came up and was trying to cross over, I knew that I have to create my own path. And the two best things that happened to me in very different ways was I remember cutting my teeth in commercials, directing commercials, direct and second units, and somebody had given me a getaway driver script to direct. I don't think it ever got made, but I was still like, "This thing is crap. I can't believe how bad it is. Screw it. I wanna write my own." I was so naive to how hard it is to write a screenplay to really do it effectively. And another set of mentors came into my life where I rang them up and I had worked with Bruce Evans and Ray Gideon who wrote Stand by Me and Made in Heaven and a lot of great movies.

(15:20):

And I called them and said, "Hey, I'm gonna try to write a screenplay and I'd love you to read it. And if it's shit, just tell me why it's shit. Explain it to me. " And they were so amazing to tell me about a one sheet. What is a hook? Why even write something in the first place? And I spent a year on this thing writing it and them giving me critique and then, but really taking me to the working writer school. And out of that, I found a writing partner named Todd Mendolo and we wrote a thing called Hammer Down, which was Mike De Luca's first buy when he became president of Dreamworks. And I never directed anything, never did stunts for another about six, seven years, and all I did was write. And I went on this huge writing tear and writing in the studio system.

Kevin Goetz (16:08):

Originals or were you a rewriter?

*Ric Roman Waugh (16:10):

Mostly originals, almost all originals. I got to work with, a number of times with Mark Gordon, Neal Moritz. I got to write a movie for Jerry Bruckheimer. I was writing for all of these different great 800 pound gorillas, and a lot of people complained about development hell, but I never saw it that way. I was like, "I get to finally be in the room with these executives and see how this part works," because I had never been a part of the above the line process. I had no comprehension about it.

Kevin Goetz (16:36):

You also then get an appreciation of you have a bad script, you don't have any movie.

Ric Roman Waugh (16:42):

100%.

Kevin Goetz (16:42):

You've got to have it on the page, period, full stop.

*Ric Roman Waugh (16:46):

Yeah. I had this war chest of knowledge on a set. You, there's nothing on a movie set, you can't tell me how it works. I get that part, but I knew nothing about going into an executive's office, pitching your wares, but also the development process. And so those six to seven years were extremely vital to me. But what happened is, and this is the second part, is my agent at the time was Nicole Clemens. She was running the most strict department at ICM, and I was writing stuff where the scripts kept getting more outlandish, more crazy. I knew the things that they were bringing me in for. They were always these things and sometimes offer me to write things that I shouldn't have been writing, but you're gonna take the money. And then she called me on it. She goes, "You know, your writing sucks. It's really getting bad." And I said, "I know. I don't wanna write this stuff."

Kevin Goetz (17:34):

Nicole said that to you?

Ric Roman Waugh (17:35):

Yeah. And I needed to hear it. She's like, "What's wrong?" I go, "I don't wanna write this stuff."

Kevin Goetz (17:40):

You're deadening your talent, essentially. When I was in acting school, they said that working on like a soap or something would often deaden the actor because you get into these habits of just the same thing. And I thought that was interesting.

Ric Roman Waugh (17:54):

Yeah. And you're writing in the wrong lane. You're writing in a lane that's not your voice. And we sat there and we went to lunch and she's like, you know, we're having this kind of straight talk. And I said, "This is not what I wanna do. " And she said, "What do you wanna do? " And I said, "I wanna make movies that would entertain you, but you'd walk out of the theater and you'd be talking about the subject matter. They'd had something to say. They were about something." And she's like, "What excites you? " So I brought up, you know, movies like that Sidney Leumet would make, you know, the movies that had something to say. They were commercial, they were entertaining. Yeah. Dog day afternoon, they were entertainment, they, they, yeah, you were in a ride, but you came out of the theater and you were talking about them, you were ha- you were in the debate of what they had to say.

(18:37):

They weren't preaching to you, they weren't opinionated, they just showed you something and they were about something bigger than just the popcorn of them. And the poster that's sitting behind you right now was that lightning rod because she said, "What do you wanna do? " 'Cause we're looking at what it could be my, like, directing debut, what can really turn me in the direction I wanted to go. And I said, "Well, the one thing that everybody asks an ex- stunt man of what scares them, I tell them, like, nothing does, but prison, going to prison scares the crap out of me. " And she goes, "Why don't you write about that? " And I started researching about the prison system in California and found out about the scandals at Corcoran Prison where they had more fatal shootings by the guards than any other prison in the United States combined.

*(19:21):

And I saw the special of the whistleblower that took down the security housing unit in that prison. And I went to a great producer that's been a dear friend of mine for a long time, Tucker Tooley, and we were both at the beginning of our careers at this point and said, "I wanna direct a movie about the prison system in California, and I'll write it on spec. I'll do all the work on spec. I'm asking you to produce it on spec and let's do it together." And it took us two years of going down that house. I, I became a parole agent in California, or a volunteer parole agent in California to learn the prison system.

Kevin Goetz (19:58):

You did that.

Ric Roman Waugh (19:59):

Mm-hmm. And then out of that became Felon, and I made no money, and then Tanya and I had twin boys born, and I'm like, "What the hell am I doing?"

Kevin Goetz (20:08):

And so Jackson Braden born, you're like saying, "I'm fulfilling my dream. I should be bringing in the big bucks right now, but you had to follow your heart."

*Ric Roman Waugh (20:16):

And that was really a moment for me to understand how do I thread the needle? How do I take the commerciality of the big action stuff that I had done prior to that point, and how do I take this new socially relevant stuff that I am just fired up about? It's what makes me go every day to wanna tell these type of stories, and how do I match those two together? How do I put intimate stories and put them in a big, commercial, shiny rapper? And the next movie that came my way was Snitch. And it was interesting because it was another place in my life that kept showing me I'm going in the right direction, but I'm still trying to figure out how to have my cake and eat it too. Snitch was a true story of a father who went into the drug world to get a bus that tried to get his kid off the mandatory minimum sentencing laws.

(21:14):

And I love what the subject matter was because it was relatable to all of us. How far would you go for your own family? How far would you stretch your own morality to save one of your children? What would you be willing to do?

Kevin Goetz (21:28):

When we come back, we are going to unpack this movie because there's a wonderful story when you made this with Dwayne, and I'd love you to share it. We'll be back in a moment. Listeners, the Motion Picture and Television Fund is a nonprofit charitable organization that supports working and retired members of the entertainment community. This wonderfully run organization offers assistance for living and aging with dignity and purpose in the areas of health and social services, including temporary financial assistance, case management, and residential living. And has been a crucial lifeline to thousands during and beyond critical times that our industry continues to experience. To learn more, visit mptf.com. Please join me in helping others in our industry during times of need. There are so many ways to offer support and get involved. Thank you. We're back with the talented Ric Roman Waugh. Can't believe how many people we have in common.

(22:41):

Every time you mention a name, I want to jump in and say, "Tucker's one of my dearest friends." Mark Gordon and Neal Moritz, they were on my show too. There's so many folks that we have and it's heartwarming. I wanna specifically unpack this experience you had with Snitch with Dwayne Johnson, who again, I love the guy. I mean, so great, showed up for me when I got my American Cinema Tech Award. I wanna hear it. Tell us all.

Ric Roman Waugh (23:07):

Well, I'm gonna mention another mutual friend of ours that was another really pivotal person for me, which is Jonathan King, who was at Participant Media, who was gonna make this movie Snitch. And he and Ricky Strauss, who was running participant at the time, when I went in there and we talked about the social relevant themes, what this movie could be, but again, Ricky being the marketing guy that he is, how is it gonna be commercial? How's it gonna be pop? How's it gonna be shiny? And I was at first reticent of that, like, "Well, wait a minute, I thought we're making this movie about a very serious subject matter." And then realized that, no, it's still a thing about commerciality. What's the commerce side of making sure that you make a bigger budget movie? It was the bigger budget I've done. This was now going from two and a half million dollars felon to they're now giving me $15 million, right?

(24:03):

This is a much bigger step for me.

Kevin Goetz (24:06):

Who gave you the money? Participant?

Ric Roman Waugh (24:08):

Participant media.

Kevin Goetz (24:09):

Gave you the 15.

Ric Roman Waugh (24:10):

Yes. And Summit released the movie. And we went through this whole process. It was an amazing experience working with Dwayne Johnson because we shared so much alike at that moment in our lives. And it's not that anybody's doing it in a way that's detrimental to you. It's just the nature of the business, but pigeonholing you to where you came from. Like, what do you think an ex stunt man should make? Oh, a movie that shows you the biggest stunt. And it was at this moment that he really wanted to do things his way and take his career in a different direction. He was coming off of the Tooth Fairy, things that were not movies that, you know, he really wanted to be a part of, and then, like, now I'm gonna do things my way. And it was great to have somebody that was a kindred spirit that was going through the same process, but the other lightning rod moment for me of really understanding that I'm in a lane that I have to be responsible about, but I can do something differently than a documentary filmmaker can do.

*(25:13):

So participant had sent me out on tour to promote the movie, and one of the panels that I did was with a great documentary filmmaker named Eugene Jarecki. They put us on a panel together, and he was promoting The House I Live In, which was a documentary based on the drug sentencing laws in America, and also what is going on in the prison system. And here, I'm doing the commercial movie with The Rock, that it's about the same subject matter. And I remember he and I doing a Q&A, and I was looking at Eugene as like, "You know, this is where I envy you because you can be more focused on the subject matter." And he kind of scoffed and he said, "I envy you. I'm playing in churches. You're on 2,500 screens." And that is really where it dawned on me, that if you wanna be a theatrical filmmaker, if you wanna make commercial fair, it's the responsibility to your partners, the people giving you that money.How do you do that and make something big, visceral, and exciting, the theatrical experience? But how do you thread the needle and put something that is intimate, thought provoking, sometimes provocative, pushing people's buttons? And it became the, the mission statement for me. And I'm still, to this day, trying to perfect that. Each movie I go into, how do I hide the peas and the mashed potatoes? How do I put movies in a big, shiny rapper, entertain you, but have you talking about that movie on the way out about what it was trying to say?

Kevin Goetz (26:53):

Well, what about shelter, man? Ric. You know how much I love this movie recently out in theaters, not the traditional Jason Statham movie, but nuanced and I would imagine if I were a betting man that it's got to be one of, if not Jason's favorite movies he's ever done.

*Ric Roman Waugh (27:16):

It was a great call. I just finished Greenland Migration and I got this great call from Jason Statham about this passion project he really wanted to make. And again, I'm going in with the connotations of a lot of the recent fare that he did saying, "I'm a huge fan of him, but these aren't the movies that I really wanna do where something can have a little bit more relevancy to it, how it can be slightly off center." If you look at every movie that I've done, including Gerard Butler, they're always slightly off center from the straightforward action movie. They've always got a little bit something else to them. And when I read this script, which wasn't even called Shelter at that point, I got it. It was shame. It was man on fire. It was the professional. It was the antihero, the guy that stood for something, the guy that had a code, and he protects a young kid and finds family, and then has the great moral dilemma of why we love movies like this.

(28:21):

Do I continue to keep them as my family or do I get my dark shadow away from them and know that being away from me is the best protection for them. And it has these kind of classic story themes to it that I just love. And the other thing that really struck a chord with me, and Jason was just such a willing participant. He just went all in on this about the isolation part of it. You know, here's a guy that's used for the quips, the fast talk and dialogue, and he's hardly saying anything in the first 15 minutes of the movie. It's this thematical idea of how we all can be cast in our own form of exile. Sometimes it's from pain, hardship, loss. We put ourselves away into this box away from other people until we realize that we're social creatures.

Kevin Goetz (29:10):

I love that, a self-imposed exile.

Ric Roman Waugh (29:12):

And who does he fall in love with? Who falls in love with him, but a young girl that has been put into exile, not by her choice, by loss and tragedy, and is looking for family, and finds it in this one guy that is the one person that is trying to do everything he can to protect her.

Kevin Goetz (29:28):

And don't laugh at me, but the dog, that wonderful bond of unconditional love, I want to ask you about your relationship with the audience. At what point in the process do you start thinking about the audience? Like, is it in the script stage? Imagine it's, of course, in casting and marketing later on, but tell me your relationship with the people you're making this movie for.

Ric Roman Waugh (29:56):

The first thing is, why would people wanna see this movie? What is the subject matter that makes it relatable to them? Is it about prison like shot caller where you're gonna understand violence breeds violence and your own internal attachment of could I survive prison? And if I did, what would be the cost of morally, physically? What would I, would it be like when I got out? Could I just shut all that off and go back to my existence beforehand? In Greenland, what is that relevant thing that we live our lives in a way like the Garrity family where they're literally hanging on by a thread of this marriage and a young boy wondering if he's gonna lose his parents until life or death smacks us in a face and we realize what really matters the most, how we allow these other things to get in the way of our bond to one another.

(30:53):

I'm looking at those essential elements first. What is on the foundational part of the story that is gonna allow Kevin Goetz and everybody sitting in the theater to attach to it? Now, how do I take that attachment and how do I wrap it in a bigger thrill ride and find that star where their fan base is gonna see them for everything that they love about them, but in a unique and fresh way?

Kevin Goetz (31:19):

Do you ever think about how to build awareness or engagement before a film is even shot?

Ric Roman Waugh (31:30):

I think it's about authenticity and also showing something warts and all. I always said, and I'm not talking about a creative, in a creative point of view, but I always tried to not be the, the Robert Redfords with my opinion in one way or in Oliver Stones and my opinion the other way. I was just trying to take you into a subject matter warts and all so that you can have your own perspective of it and take away what you want from it. The one that was the most commercial movie that I had done to date, they asked me to come in and do Angel His Fallen, which the Has Fallen franchise, the second movie really didn't do well, and they were trying to figure out how to do it in a different way. And Gerard Butler and I had been wanting to work together and he came to me and pitched me this idea that he had.

*(32:15):

And when I went into it, it was really about why are people gonna see this differently? How can they associate to something that it was straight popcorn fair? Well, one of the things that we all do is we all try to outdo our own mortality. We're all chasing death. We're all wondering how long we can sustain what we do. And what if you're the man with a gun, like a Secret Service agent, and you're getting longer in the tooth? When is it time to hang up the gun? When is it time in s- professional sports to hang it up? We see that all the time, but it's in every sector. So we turned Mike Banning into a pill popping secret service agent that was doing everything he can to, to stay on the job to the point that he screws up and almost loses the president for good. So what it's about is getting back to the heroes for me that the 70s were chocked full of and so many other eras, uh, decades back then of heroes that were flawed, they were vulnerable, they were sensitive, they were us, we related to them. And then we went through this period where it felt like everybody was 10 feet tall and bulletproof and impervious to pain, and they felt cardboard to us. So everything I'm trying to do is chip away at that and trying to make these action heroes men of action, trying to make them people, normally everyday people with their own flaws, vulnerabilities, and humanize them in a way that they become us.

Kevin Goetz (33:39):

That was my introduction, was it not, today? That must have resonated with you and for you. How is it working with Gerry?

Ric Roman Waugh (33:47):

It's been great. We're like brothers. And the more brothers get to know each other, the more they can push each other's buttons, the more respect they get for one another and what they do. And also, it becomes harder on each round, especially when you've met your match that neither of us wanna phone it in. Neither one of us wanna do the status quo. How are we gonna raise the bar? And how are we gonna push that threshold? And so the great thing about Gerry is, and I think it's what makes him such a big movie star and also makes him a really great actor, is he is a big teddy bear. He's very sensitive. He's not afraid to show his vulnerabilities on camera.

Kevin Goetz (34:31):

He's the greatest hugger. There's not a time I don't see him where he just throws his, like in a bear hug.

Ric Roman Waugh (34:37):

And it's sincere. He's a really good guy and he's dealing with his own stuff like everybody else is, and he's not afraid to put that type of stuff into his characters so that we relate to him. And it's been a great ride. We'll see whatever comes down the road where he and I think fits, um, the bill for us together. But it's been four movies where I feel like each one was very specific in a different way, its own unique animal. And I'm proud of all the different characters that he's played.

Kevin Goetz (35:05):

You know, each movie that gets made and produced is, I'd like to say a minor miracle, and I really mean that. What would you say was the most challenging putting together the pieces, the financing? Where did it become just like, "I don't know if I can continue to do this?”

Ric Roman Waugh (35:23):

Yeah, it's been a couple of them. I mean, Shot Caller was one that went through being set up at Relativity at one point, because Tucker and I who made felon together was running relativity for Ryan Kavanaugh, and then they went belly up and suddenly you're like-

Kevin Goetz (35:42):

And suddenly your movie's belly up.

Ric Roman Waugh (35:44):

A project without a home, you know, and you're calling. And one of the greatest guys in my life that's been just, I can't speak highly enough of him, is Graham Taylor, who you call your buddy, Uncle Graham and say, "Dude, help me. Like, how do we find a place to put this movie together?" And luckily you get people in your corner that really go to bat for you and we were able to package it in a way with participant media and believing in, with a lot of people wanted your more typical action star to be in that role, but I wanted a real actor. I also wanted somebody that wasn't an action hero that you really felt one could be us, could be the everyday person, a normal human being, but then you also had to believe the flip that could turn into a gangster.

(36:32):

And we got the Kingslayer, you know, from Game of Thrones, but it's because Nikolaj Coster-Waldau was just an incredible actor. He had such a great sensibility of the character, and off we went. But that package took quite a long time. And I guarantee you, every major person that you've had, and not that I'm major, but every person that you've had on this podcast knows you're gonna fall on your face 100,000 times to get something made. But the ones that are scrappy, the ones that roll up their sleeves and dust themselves off and just keep going, that's how you get things made. Where I've been trying to figure out, Kevin, is when not to be a juggernaut.

Kevin Goetz (37:12):

Yeah, what do you mean by that?

*Ric Roman Waugh (37:13):

Because there's sometimes when you're trying to force something that you put blinders on, and then you realize, and you and I have been in, um, focus groups in that, where you think you're thinking in a myopic way because you've been so headstrong about pushing through a wall and believing in one thing that sometimes you gotta stop, take a full step back, get perspective, and go, "This is why this is not working, because it needs to go this direction, and this is the more natural fit for this project." Whether it's casting, financing, creative, it could be anything, but sometimes we just keep forcing the same configuration, and there's a reason that it's not sticking. 

Kevin Goetz (37:56):

Well, that's why I love working with you, because you do listen to the audience, and you know that things that you might think you've communicated are not what's being communicated, and you're doing yourself no favors by not hearing from real people who have no agenda. It's hard when you do these friends and family screenings, and you've got people who are probably blowing smoke up your ass to a large extent, as opposed to people who are just coming in and saying, "I wanna have a great time." And so you can choose to say they're idiots, or you can choose to say, "Wow, I need to look in a mirror." <laugh> You know?

Ric Roman Waugh (38:33):

Yeah. It's also the, even earlier in the process where when I show very select people early material, I pick up on what are common denominators that people are hitting on that I think can get better. Focus groups in the end result, they give you that as well. What are the common denominators that they're having an issue with? But we miss it sometimes, and God bless them, the filmmakers that can do 30, 40 takes, that is not me. And if by take five, something's not working, I stop. I literally stop and say, "We're forcing something." Some, if it's not finding its originality, if it's not being fresh, something's wrong here, and it happened on shelter.

Kevin Goetz (39:18):

What's an example? Can you give me something?

*Ric Roman Waugh (39:21):

Yeah, there's a scene where Mason, when you meet him, he plays chess by himself because he has nobody else to play with, and it's just lonely existence, this thing in exile. And the scene was written a certain way, and it was just not blocking, and I don't block actors. I like create a set, a create an environment, and allow them just to go in and do their thing. And we dress to them. Like, I'm not one of these guys going, "The camera's gonna be right here. You have to look right in this direction." I want people to be more freeform. And it was just not working. Jason didn't feel right in the scene, Bodhi Rae was questioning things, and I just luckily stopped, looked at my first AD who's looking at his watch, and I said, "Take everybody off set. Just, just give me five minutes." And just the three of us, Bodhi Rae, myself, and Jason went down and sat at a table about, for half an hour, and just really talked about the scene, what they were trying to get out of it, what it meant, and it clicked, and we went back and did it in two takes.

Kevin Goetz (40:21):

You wrote the scene.

Ric Roman Waugh (40:23):

Literally on the fly, right there-

Kevin Goetz (40:24):

But I'm saying, you wrote it originally, right?

Ric Roman Waugh (40:26):

No, Ward Parry wrote the script, and I was a part of it, but it was always something that was not clicking in that scene.

Kevin Goetz (40:33):

Was it not clicking when you read it the first time? In other words, when you go back and think about it. Was there always something that stopped you there?

Ric Roman Waugh (40:42):

It was trying too hard, and I feel like sometimes creative, and we've done this in our test screenings, right? Sometimes we're trying too hard. Sometimes things just have to breathe and let the subtext do its work and allow people just to be characters. And it was trying too many canical things in it. It was trying too hard to connect dots and zigzag and plotting, and that's really what Jason bumped on, and he was 100% right. And we just scripted all back, got down to the essence of it. Luckily, you've got a 14-year-old girl who's just unbelievable.

Kevin Goetz (41:18):

Wasn't she good? Whoo.

*Ric Roman Waugh (41:19):

And the fact that you can take a young actress like this, or actor, and completely throw away what they had rehearsed and memorized, and then put a whole new kind of configuration together, and go in there, and literally two takes later, you have this amazing scene that's heartfelt, it's witty, it's on point of where we're trying to get the characters. So it's like, sometimes we have to watch being juggernauts. Sometimes we have to watch pushing things too hard, because when they're not going together, what's the black swan? What's the reason they're not landing? And it's taking a full step back and analyzing and getting better perspective.

Kevin Goetz (41:59):

Do you shoot with multiple cameras?

Ric Roman Waugh (42:01):

I shoot narratively with two cameras. And boy, I'll tell you what, that you're becoming Kevin Bacon, because I know you've also interviewed William Goldenberg, and Billy has been one of the great people in my life who just really talked a lot about the editorial experience. But yeah, Billy Goldenberg, who's-

Kevin Goetz (42:19):

A genius.

Ric Roman Waugh (42:20):

... edited all the early Michael Mann movies and Kathryn Bigelow, his network with Paul Greengrass, directing himself. We talked a lot about The Insider, and he really talked about how so much of that movie was the B camera. It was the off angles that made that movie seat into itself that felt more docudrama. And a lot of my style is docudrama. I'm trying to give you real life situations and drama and emotion and then wrap them in these bigger and bigger environments. And I really took that to heart, so I shoot much to the detriment of a lot of cinematographers other than Martin Ahlgren, who I shoot with now and the great Dana Gonzales who I shot a lot of my movies with. And we're able to put the B camera off axis. And what it allows you is the way that you shoot documentaries is you have one camera looking at Kevin Goetz, but another camera is completely off axis somewhere else in the room, grabbing B-roll.

(43:19):

It's grabbing a different perspective.

Kevin Goetz (43:20):

Observational research. We call them ethnographies.

Ric Roman Waugh (43:24):

Yes.

Kevin Goetz (43:24):

That's so interesting. So last night I saw a documentary called The Perfect Neighbor.

Ric Roman Waugh (43:31):

Mm-hmm.

Kevin Goetz (43:31):

Almost entirely all shot with body cams. Please see it.

Ric Roman Waugh (43:35):

Yeah.

Kevin Goetz (43:35):

Because this is a style I wanna use. It's so compelling, I cannot tell you. You strike me as a guy who you don't settle, it doesn't get easier, does it? In other words, you just have to start over each and every time and sort of adjust to what's thrown at you.

Ric Roman Waugh (43:57):

You do.

Kevin Goetz (43:58):

You do, because you're a risk taker and I wanna talk to you about what I feel is your leitmotif, which is this sense of authenticity, doing the right thing, the overarching, super objective, the message, and you're relentless at it.

*Ric Roman Waugh (44:19):

The scariest time in my life is right now, which is what the hell is next? Where's that story that's gonna grab me, that feels different, it feels unique, but it can also be commercial. And we're in this landscape now, in the theatrical business especially, it is really, really difficult to figure out what is gonna put butts in seats, what is really gonna grab people.

Kevin Goetz (44:42):

What do we do? I'll

Ric Roman Waugh (44:43):

I’ll give you the analogy that a lot of people say, "Well, you must've been thinking shelter would be a franchise." No. If you're thinking too far in the future, you're dead. You just gotta put everything on the table for that one piece of creative that you're doing. We never thought there'd be a sequel to Greenland. We were making Greenland. Greenland was a one-off. I remember when Basil Iwanyk, you know, I, when I read that script, I went and knocked on his door right away. I was like a heat-seeking missile to direct that. I just had to direct it.

Kevin Goetz (45:13):

Another guest in the show.

Ric Roman Waugh (45:15):

Yeah. <laugh> Well, and there's a reason because he's a prolific producer and he's done it independently. He's done it where everybody of his peers took big heads of studio jobs and yet Basil bet on himself.

Kevin Goetz (45:26):

Not only that, he moved to New Jersey to open a bookstore- <laugh> ... And have a life. I mean, just come on, that's pretty amazing. Sorry.

Ric Roman Waugh (45:35):

And he and I have done a couple movies together and it's been an amazing experience because you meet producers that roll up their sleeves too that are trying to figure out, and I like this, about his body of work. They're always a little bit off center. He turned a guy that was avenging his dog being killed, you know, John Wick into one of the biggest franchises of all time, but that was a one-off. That was just like this quirky movie that he bet on.

Kevin Goetz (46:00):

They couldn't even sell it. Do you remember that? I think finally Lionsgate stepped up to the plate. I believe Jason Constantine had a lot to do with that. May he rest in peace. Am I correct?

*Ric Roman Waugh (46:10):

Yeah. It's this crazy world that we're living in right now and this guessing game of what people are gonna go see. Out of the last several years of the Oscar winners, my two favorite movies were foreign movies. They weren't even major. One is Parasite and one is Slum Dog Millionaire. You know what I mean? They're like, great stories will travel. And if we just keep making great stories and really find the lane that one, why are people gonna wanna see it? What's the personal attachment? That's really important to me. It's something that you and I have already started scratching the surface on that we're talking a lot about, which is then how do you market your movies to get people to understand the personal attraction to this fair that you put out? Why is it more than just entertainment? What's in it for them that attaches them to your story?

Kevin Goetz (47:00):

I think that's an excellent point because we have to find ways to get people emotionally invested in a story before you shoot a frame of film while you're shooting the movie, and then of course afterwards. And if you look at Angel Studios, for example, and their Angel Investor Network, you can understand that premise. A lot of faith-based movies do that. The filmmakers reach out to them early on, and so they build a core base. I think that's necessary today. You and I, when we were preparing for this interview, talked about the idea of you gotta start with a community early on in some way that's gonna engage people because you gotta find people, I think, where they're at. You can't expect them to find you.

*Ric Roman Waugh (47:50):

This started before the pandemic, in my opinion, because we went through a long phase that you had to have an IP to get a movie made. Well, why is that? Because there was a community around that IP. There was already a built-in audience that understood what that story was. Now, post-pandemic, it's even harder to get people to the movie theaters. And we're also dealing with a generation, and this is not just kids, it's all of us, where you're watching the Super Bowl, and all of this money's being spent on these ads, and how many did you actually watch in entirety? How many did you even miss because you went to the kitchen, or you're talking to friends? And the other most important thing, which is I think the bigger thing that we're all trying to figure out, is how many people have the phone six inches through their face, and they're not looking at billboards. They're not looking at traditional marketing. They're not looking at any of that. How do you tap into those people, but also in a way that you're giving them a chance to understand this maybe original IP that you're doing, and most of the films that I've done are original IP. How do you build a community around that, too, and attach them?

Kevin Goetz (48:57):

And to get them to be passionate advocates, dare I say, evangelists-

Ric Roman Waugh (49:02):

Mm-hmm.

Kevin Goetz (49:03):

... for your movie. I mean, that requires some kind of investment. And I think filmmakers, everyone needs to embrace that and be a part of that community building early on and way earlier on. And I agree with you, I think it wasn't caused by the pandemic, but like so many other things in our business exacerbated by the pandemic. I wanna end with what you are planning to do next, meaning what's in your heart? What can we expect from Ric Roman Waugh?

Ric Roman Waugh (49:33):

Been dying to do a true story. Most of the fare that I've done has been fictional stories made to feel real, to feel grounded and authentic, but been really wanting to do a full-blown true story. I am talking about one thing that I'm really excited about that hopefully is gonna come together. And Jason Statham and I had just a great experience on Shelter really talking about what is 2.0 for us? What's that next thing that we would love to tear up together? And it's interesting because I said this to Jason and I've said it to Gerry and a lot of people I've worked with, when you're a filmmaker, you live with their eight by 10 on the wall when you're casting the movie. So you're constantly looking at them, and then you film the movie, and it's usually somewhere between six and 20 weeks, right?

*(50:24):

Then you go and edit and you're staring at them every single day for months in the editorial. Then you're finishing the movie and all the thing, but they've only been with you for that short period of the shoot. And it's always this weird thing about the bond that you build with people, but in the short amount of time that Jason and I filmed together, and he's a very active producer, a great collaborator, all the way through to putting the movie out, he's a guy that I wanna jump back in the saddle with, so we're excited about trying to figure out what could be next for us.

Kevin Goetz (50:57):

Well, that's just so exciting. And I just wanna say calling out to, again, your wife, Tanya and Jackson and Braden. The father you must be, the husband you must be is extraordinary because I've gotten, even in this hour, and I've known you for quite a while, the depth and authenticity of a man who has a real vision, strength, and purpose and intention. So thank you for joining me here today. It was just an absolute pleasure.

Ric Roman Waugh (51:26):

Kevin, I wouldn't wanna do it with anybody else. You've been a, another great mentor and friend to me, and you know what? We got a lot more dragons to slay together, so you're not going anywhere.

Kevin Goetz (51:36):

Amen, brother. To our listeners, I hope you enjoyed this conversation. I encourage you to watch Ric's films, including his latest, Shelter and Greenland 2, Migration. For more insights into filmmaking, audience testing, and the business of Hollywood, I invite you to check out my books, Audienceology, and my latest How to Score in Hollywood. You can also follow me on my social media. Next time on Don't Kill the Messenger, I'll welcome one of the most experienced and prolific independent film and television producers and financiers, Stuart Ford. Until then, I'm Kevin Goetz, and to you, our listeners, I appreciate you being part of the movie-making process. Your opinions matter.

Host: Kevin Goetz
Guest: Ric Roman Waugh
Producer: Kari Campano
Writers: Kevin Goetz, Darlene Hayman, and Kari Campano
Audio Engineer: Gary Forbes (DG Entertainment)