Podcast: Don't Kill the Messenger with Movie Research Expert Kevin Goetz
Guest: Stuart Ford

Interview Transcript:

Announcer (00:03):

From script to screen, every film is brought to life by visionary creatives and executives, all sharing one mission to captivate the audience. Hosted by award-winning movie strategist Kevin Goetz, our podcast, Don't Kill the Messenger, offers a filmmaking masterclass through intimate conversations with Hollywood's most influential voices. And now, your host, Kevin Goetz.

Kevin Goetz (00:29):

Few people have shaped the independent marketplace the way today's guest has. Someone with a deep command of the global ecosystem of development, financing, and distribution. Across his career, Stuart Ford has produced or executive produced nearly 80 films and series, assembling more than $2 billion in independent financing. He's earned Variety's achievement in International Film Award, been named one of the Guardian's 50 most influential people in global cinema, appeared multiple times in the Variety 500, and in 2023, received Variety's billion dollar producer honor at Cannes. He's the chairman and CEO of the Super Indie AGC Studios, and previously founded IM Global, building it into an international studio powerhouse, spanning North America, Europe, Asia, India, Latin America, and the Middle East. Stuart, I'm very much looking forward to this conversation today. Thank you so much for joining me.

Stuart Ford (01:35):

Me too, Kevin. It's a real pleasure to be here. Thank you.

Kevin Goetz (01:37):

We have got so much to unpack. First off, I would love to hear, in your own words, what exactly you do. Mostly, because you do so many things.

Stuart Ford (01:49):

Well, first and foremost, I'm the chairman of AGC Studios, and I oversee pretty much every aspect of our business. So that essentially encompasses film and television development, film and television production. We finance or self-finance or co-finance film and television. We sell or license film and television globally. We manage our own marketing and publicity in- house and business affairs. We have an unscripted division that works on unscripted formats and documentaries. So I get to flex a lot of muscles every day I come into the office.

Kevin Goetz (02:28):

For years, you specialized in international. That was your thing. Are you still the international guy or are you really more equal parts domestic and international?

Stuart Ford (02:43):

I think I'm equal parts. I definitely came up on the international side of the business. I think a lot of people did think of me as the international guy for a long time, but- 

Kevin Goetz (02:52):

Well, you're still considered one of the ... I'm gonna say this for our listeners. One of the five best in the industry for years now. I can think of my favorite, Kathy Morgan, Glen Basner, Stuart Ford. I mean, who else is of your caliber?

Stuart Ford (03:09):

Oh, I'm sure. Sure there are plenty. Nick Meyer. Yeah. No, there aren't plenty. They're not all as longevitous as me, but there's plenty of talented people in that area of the business. Glen Basner and I have been peers- Exactly. ... really since the late 90s. 

Kevin Goetz (03:22):

He's your biggest competitor.

Stuart Ford (03:23):

Competitor and friend in the business. I moved to New York to work in the industry in the late 90s. He was coming up at a, a company called Good Machine, which subsequently became focus features. So we knew each other at an early stage in our career. And in fact, before I launched off from being a studio executive into the entrepreneurial world, Glen and I talked at length at one stage about partnering together and-

Kevin Goetz (03:48):

Oh, that would have been formidable.

Stuart Ford (03:48):

Yeah. So wow. 

Kevin Goetz (03:50):

That could have been really, really crazy.

Stuart Ford (03:52):

Well, we'll never know what might have happened.

Kevin Goetz (03:53):

Ah, okay. I want to go back because you said Glen came up through Good Machine, which became Focus Features. And you of course came up through Harvey Weinstein and Miramax before it became the Weinstein Company.

Stuart Ford (04:08):

Yeah, I was a Miramax kid. Before that, I came up through the, the British film industry, the British independent sector.

Kevin Goetz (04:13):

Let's go back to your British roots. You were born where?

Stuart Ford (04:17):

Liverpool. In the Northwestern.

Kevin Goetz (04:19):

You're Liverpudlian.

Stuart Ford (04:20):

Absolutely.

Kevin Goetz (04:21):

Damn, you and The Beatles, right?

Stuart Ford (04:22):

Yeah. There are others as well. I think Daniel Craig, as a good shout, is a more famous Liverpotlian than me.

Kevin Goetz (04:27):

Give me another one.

Stuart Ford (04:29):

Oh, famous Liverpolis.

Kevin Goetz (04:31):

'Cause you should know them all.

Stuart Ford (04:32):

Was

Kevin Goetz (04:32):

was it not all the Beatles though? Were they?

Stuart Ford (04:34):

Yeah, no, they were all from Liverpool. Wow. Absolutely. Yeah.

Kevin Goetz (04:36):

Incredible.

Stuart Ford (04:37):

Incredible. Yeah. We're about to launch a Beatles TV show. It's a, it's proud moment for me.

Kevin Goetz (04:40):

Tell, you're gonna tell me about all of it later on in the broadcast. I wanna just talk about a young Stuart starting out in the world. Aspirations to be in the movie business?

Stuart Ford (04:50):

Absolutely none. In fact, truthfully, when I grew up and where I grew up, there was no path into the movie business. It never crossed my mind in the first 20 years of my life that I would ever go down this-

Kevin Goetz (05:02):

What did you start doing?

Stuart Ford (05:04):

I was very into sports when I was a kid. I was a good athlete.

Kevin Goetz (05:06):

Let's just call out to your two sons who are both into sports.

Stuart Ford (05:10):

Both very good athletes. Yeah. I, I sort of- 

Kevin Goetz (05:12):

One in basketball and the other one is-

Stuart Ford (05:14):

Tennis player. Tennis. Yeah. So yeah, I grew up as a very sporty kid and good academically.

Kevin Goetz (05:20):

You kind of have it all going on, Stuart. Yes. But what'd you think you were gonna do later in life?

Stuart Ford (05:24):

Well, so I went to university. I went to Oxford to study law. And it was only at Oxford that I got my first sort of skirmish with the entertainment business because of course I met all these super cool, interesting people, some of whom were into music, some of whom were into theater. 

Kevin Goetz (05:42):

What did your parents do?

Stuart Ford (05:43):

My dad was in the software business and my mom was a tax inspector.

Kevin Goetz (05:49):

And siblings?

Stuart Ford (05:50):

Sister also went to Oxford a few years behind me and became a lawyer.

Kevin Goetz (05:55):

So when I think of Liverpool, I usually think of, "Oh, you're gonna hate me. Please don't write me letters, listeners." The other side of the tracks.

Stuart Ford (06:03):

Little bit. It was a rough-

Kevin Goetz (06:05):

Rough, right?

Stuart Ford (06:05):

Rough tough city, particularly in the 70s and 80s when I was growing. 

Kevin Goetz (06:08):

Right, that's where I was going. Right. But yet you both go to Oxford. That's pretty impressive.

Stuart Ford (06:12):

Bit of luck, a lot of hard work I think. Yeah. No, I think there was some luck there.

Kevin Goetz (06:17):

Did you become a lawyer?

Stuart Ford (06:18):

I did. So what happened was I was at Oxford. I didn't do a whole lot of academic work, as I recall, but I met all these cool people doing interesting things. I managed bands, managed comedians, sold merchandise. So that was my first inkling that I wanted to be an entrepreneur. And I was like-

Kevin Goetz (06:34):

I was gonna say, "We know we can spot each other."

Stuart Ford (06:36):

Right. <laugh>

Kevin Goetz (06:37):

Am I right or wrong?

Stuart Ford (06:38):

No, absolutely.

Kevin Goetz (06:39):

And you can't teach it.

Stuart Ford (06:40):

Right. So that's where I thought I want to work in entertainment, but I want to make money as well. And so when I left Oxford, I didn't want to go too far off the straight and narrow or waste my Oxford degree. So I went to law school, but I thought, I know I'll become an entertainment lawyer.

Kevin Goetz (06:55):

Where'd you go?

Stuart Ford (06:56):

Law school in England is a different thing. It was only a year because if you do a three year law degree, law school is a shorter qualificatory period in England. So I went to law school for a year.

Kevin Goetz (07:05):

And then you passed the bar.

*Stuart Ford (07:07):

Passed the bar, became a junior solicitor. I was never a technically great lawyer, I don't think, but I decided I'm going to become an entertainment lawyer. And luckily I was hired by what was pretty much the number one entertainment law firm in the UK at that time. And this is in the early '90s. So that firm, and in particular, the lawyer I worked for represented most of the best British production companies at the time, the likes of Working Title and Gold Crest. So I had this immersion in the British film industry, indie film industry, in the early 90s, which was something of a boom period then.

Kevin Goetz (07:45):

And you did transactional, not litigation.

Stuart Ford (07:46):

Yeah, transactionally, it was representing producers putting together- Oh my God. Invaluable. Yeah. And I, apart from working for what was probably the top entertainment lawyer in the UK at the time, I also spent a lot of time representing the top talent agents in the UK, a guy called Duncan Heath. So both here and the lawyer I worked for, Mark Dever, they became my

Kevin Goetz (08:05):

Sort of mentors

*Stuart Ford (08:06):

Mentors. And for several years, I had a blast. This was the time when British cinema was going through a real boom period. This was train spotting. This was four Weddings in a funeral. This was Notting Hill, The Crying Game, The Merchant Ivory Films, Mike Lee, you know, Secrets and Lies and Naked, great stuff. So that was pretty cool. And I was enjoying that, but I also was definitely a pretty ambitious guy in my 20s. I had a sense there's something bigger out there than the British film industry.

Kevin Goetz (08:36):

Right. United States.

Stuart Ford (08:39):

Right. Well, exactly. And this was also a period, you know, we're into the mid 90s now where American independent cinema was really enjoying a boom period as well. And in particular, probably Miramax films were the stars of that particular- 

Kevin Goetz (08:55):

For a brand. People don't remember that.

*Stuart Ford (08:56):

Right. So I was there in England working in British independent film, but running off to movie theaters to see the Tarantino movies, to see swingers, to see Clarks, as we called it, Clerks, as Americans called it. Uh- Oh, clerks. <laugh> Clocks. Uh, and I thought, oh, this is an even cooler universe. So happened that Miramax's UK office were clients of the law firm, and I bluntly sort of fluttered my eyelashes a bit and persuaded them to hire me.

Kevin Goetz (09:24):

Who's they? 

Stuart Ford (09:26):

The Miramax UK people. So that was good. The people in New York said to me, "Why don't you come and work here instead of in London?" Great. And I was in my 20s, I was unmarried, I was ambitious, why the hell not? And that's it. So I moved to New York in my sort of mid to late 20s and went to work for what was then the coolest movie company on the planet.

Kevin Goetz (09:47):

And what was your first interaction with Harvey? 

*Stuart Ford (09:49):

Ha. First interaction would have been sitting in a meeting where there's a lot of people, uh, and he was in a horrendous mood munching on a tuna fish bagel fairly repulsively, I have to say, and I'm pretty sure the bagel got thrown at somebody before the end of the meeting. <laugh>

Kevin Goetz (10:08):

But as long as

Stuart Ford (10:09):

It wasn't you. It wasn't me. I kept my mouth shut and hid.

Kevin Goetz (10:12):

When did he recognize you as being someone who could really help him and actually run his international practice?

Stuart Ford (10:19):

I never particularly aspired to qualify at the New York Bar. So when I went to Miramax, I wasn't allowed to hold myself out as a lawyer and I worked for a guy called Charles Layton, very senior at the company.

Kevin Goetz (10:31):

He started Blumhouse with Jason Blum.

Stuart Ford (10:33):

That's right. So Charles was a super smart businessman. His office was literally in between Harvey and Bob's office, almost like a boxing referee.

Kevin Goetz (10:40):

Oh my Lord.

Stuart Ford (10:41):

And he would work on the major deals for them, the stuff with Disney, the big co-financings, TV output deals. So I was working with Charles and therefore I was right in the visibility from an early stage. 

Kevin Goetz (10:54):

Oh my God. I can only imagine Harvey and Bob. I have many stories of the two of them just going at it.

Stuart Ford (11:00):

Yeah. Yeah. It was- It wasn't pretty.

Kevin Goetz (11:01):

It was not pretty. 

Stuart Ford (11:02):

<laugh> I was shocked. Imagine I'd come, here's me, an Oxford educated lawyer coming from the UK and suddenly I'm in the jungle. This is the American movie business. Yeah. This is New York. This is the Weinstein Brothers. It was-

Kevin Goetz (11:17):

And no one was better. Let's give credit where credit's due. No one was better than they were at that company at that time.

Stuart Ford (11:24):

At that time, they're at the top of their game-

Kevin Goetz (11:26):

Yeah. ...

Stuart Ford (11:26):

As studio executives. 

Kevin Goetz (11:28):

You must have learned a ton, let's face it.

Stuart Ford (11:29):

Everything. That was my film school.

Kevin Goetz (11:31):

What did you learn most from Harvey and/or Bob?

*Stuart Ford (11:34):

I think you can put it into two buckets. So firstly, I shifted to various, in the end, senior roles at the company. So I had this very rounded film education. I ran overseas production offices. I was co-head of acquisitions buying all of these prestige dramas and foreign language films. Then I became head of international sales.

Kevin Goetz (11:55):

Hold on. When you say buying-

Stuart Ford (11:56):

I was the guy sitting up all night at a film festival.

Kevin Goetz (11:59):

You were there. You were the one in Sundance who

Stuart Ford (12:01):

Had to

Kevin Goetz (12:01):

Do the calls

Stuart Ford (12:02):

All night

Kevin Goetz (12:02):

Or the bidding all night long.

Stuart Ford (12:04):

I was the guy who'd get on the plane- 

Kevin Goetz (12:06):

What better education?

Stuart Ford (12:06):

fly to Paris and try and buy Amalie before anyone else saw it or that kind of stuff.

Kevin Goetz (12:11):

Okay. Sorry. I've got a million questions, but let me ask you this. What's the one that got away from you and you heard the wrath?

Stuart Ford (12:17):

The one where I got the most wrath, interestingly, didn't turn out to be a great film. And so it was a film called Enduring Love. It was- I never even heard of it. Roger Michelle directing, based on an Ian McEwen novel, and working title were going after it. And I think he had during that period where I was in charge of acquisitions, I feel as if it was the only one of any substance that we didn't get, that we wanted, and I definitely got a shall lacking for that. Of course, the fact that a British director who'd made his first three films with working title opted to make his next film with work title <laugh>- I mean- Didn't spare me any. <laugh> 

Kevin Goetz (12:52):

I know, but like loyalty, I kind of respect that, right?

Stuart Ford (12:53):

Of course. I think it was always going to work in title, but I remember there was a little bit of a postmortem on that one.

Kevin Goetz (12:59):

Did you have the authority to up the bid without getting approval? Like, if Harvey says, "Get this for me, do not lose it. "

Stuart Ford (13:06):

Uh-huh.

Kevin Goetz (13:07):

Did that mean that you had another $5 million or something to play with?

Stuart Ford (13:11):

Well, again, we're talking about early 2000s here where people were not texting and emailing quite as fluidly, so- So he

Kevin Goetz (13:18):

Was very present.

Stuart Ford (13:18):

Yeah. If I was going overseas to go try and make a deal on something, then you would have to run with the ball to some degree. Now, I don't think I ever closed the deal without at least putting the phone call in saying, "Here's what it's going to take."

Kevin Goetz (13:29):

Reserving all rights?

Stuart Ford (13:30):

All that. So you'd have to be a little bit cute. You'd have to be- Sure. ... in the room ostensibly closing, but making sure that before you signed a piece of paper, you'd made the phone call to New York.

Kevin Goetz (13:39):

Understood. Let's go back to your two buckets.

*Stuart Ford (13:42):

So there was the bucket of this incredible film education, and when I ran into national sales and distribution, then it's not just the sales, it's overseeing the marketing and the publicity campaign globally in 70 territories. And you're working really closely with filmmakers like Quentin Tarantino and Anthony Minghella and Kevin Smith and James Mangold. So that was an incredible immersion program for me in how to work with world-class filmmakers in sales, in marketing, in publicity, in deal making. That's where I learned my movie business skills.

Kevin Goetz (14:14):

And it was film school.

Stuart Ford (14:15):

Yeah. It really was. It was film school.

Kevin Goetz (14:16):

Tell me the second bucket.

*Stuart Ford (14:18):

Second bucket is as an entrepreneur because those guys were hustlers and they were entrepreneurs. And again, I wasn't really sure whether that was me. If you'd have told me when I first moved to New York, you're going to parlay this into a lifelong career at a Hollywood studio, that would have made perfect sense to me. However, over the course of those six or seven years, I sort of felt, nah, I want to do this on my own.

Kevin Goetz (14:40):

Okay. I had that epiphany, that moment of aha where I said, "I don't want to go with this other corporate behemoth buying the company I currently work with. I'm going to venture out on my own." What was your aha moment?

Stuart Ford (14:55):

Uh, aha moment was actually mid 2004, the rumors were rife that the Weinsteins and Disney had fallen out and that they were not going to be around for much longer. My employment contract was up and I actually got involved in an attempt to buy my hometown soccer club. And so that gave me a good emotional reason to say, "Okay, I'm going to fly the Miramax Nest. I'm going to get involved in this beard."

Kevin Goetz (15:21):

And if it wasn't movies, he, they probably weren't that upset that you were leaving.

Stuart Ford (15:25):

Correct. That gave me an exit. And also I think-

Kevin Goetz (15:28):

Ted Lasso was your next step.

Stuart Ford (15:30):

Sort of <laugh> exactly. And that was a really fun ride. You know, my hometown soccer club's one of the biggest in the world. Most-

Kevin Goetz (15:36):

What is it?

Stuart Ford (15:37):

Liverpool.

Kevin Goetz (15:37):

It's just called Liverpool.

Stuart Ford (15:38):

The Liverpool FC, yeah.

Kevin Goetz (15:39):

FC, yeah.

Stuart Ford (15:39):

Yeah. It's one of the top three or four- Division one. Absolutely, yeah. So it was big news, yeah. And I had American partners, and this was, these days, American owners have acquired a lot of the big European- Did you do it? No, we didn't quite pull it off, but it was quite high profile. It was on the back pages of the newspapers and in the business pages, and a lot of the kids who I grew up with who maybe hadn't heard from me for 10, 12 years, they have that sort of- 

Kevin Goetz (16:07):

You were a rockstar.

Stuart Ford (16:08):

Well, they had that sort of JFK moment, whereas where were you when you heard that idiot Stuart Ford was trying to buy Liverpool?

Kevin Goetz (16:13):

Was that a huge disappointment?

*Stuart Ford (16:15):

No, I was terrified we were gonna pull it off. I had no idea what I was doing.

Kevin Goetz (16:18):

Great line, Stuart.

Stuart Ford (16:19):

Yeah. I was

Kevin Goetz (16:19):

Terrified. I was terrified.

Stuart Ford (16:21):

We were gonna actually pull

Kevin Goetz (16:22):

It off.

*Stuart Ford (16:22):

But it also enhanced these sort of entrepreneurial feelings that I had. So my wife and I talked about it, and we were living in New York at the time, and it was a case of, are we gonna move to Europe so you can jump into the soccer business with both feet, or are we staying in the US so I could carry on my career in film and entertainment, and I decided I wanted to stay in the US, but I wanted my own company-

Kevin Goetz (16:49):

Genius.

Stuart Ford (16:49):

... to do my own thing. And that's where I, to cut a long story short, move to LA, and we started IM Global, not- 

Kevin Goetz (16:56):

Why'd you do it in LA as opposed to New York?

Stuart Ford (16:57):

It just felt like that was the epicenter of the business, and New York had been a hotbed of indie film during that period. Sure. But I felt as if, okay, I've done New York. I'm gonna go to LA. 

Kevin Goetz (17:08):

Was there a white space at the time? In your business, there seemed to be a glut, a foreign sales agents, and I don't mean to be disrespectful, because you're so much more than a foreign sales agent, but that's how one would have characterized you in the early days. You had a foreign sales company.

Stuart Ford (17:25):

Yes.

Kevin Goetz (17:25):

And who financed it, first of all? Who bankrolled it? <laugh> Well,

Stuart Ford (17:30):

Bankrupted it nearly. Uh, I had a few partners early on. I definitely kissed a few frogs. I had a German public company called International Media Group IMG.

Kevin Goetz (17:40):

Was that during the Nuram market?

Stuart Ford (17:42):

Yes. And they-

Kevin Goetz (17:43):

The insurance scheme?

Stuart Ford (17:44):

They had real problems and six months into the life of IM, that was the international media group. And they hit a massive wall, and I lost my partners very quickly. I had a few other dubious characters circling around the company.

Kevin Goetz (17:59):

It was a scheme. We've been doing this for ... I've been doing almost four decades, you're three decades plus now. Mm-hmm. And the truth is, we've seen scheme after scheme. They come, they're successful, they usually rob or rape the business, and then they leave, and somebody loses a lot of money.

Stuart Ford (18:15):

Yeah.

Kevin Goetz (18:15):

Yeah. Time and time again. Am I right?

Stuart Ford (18:17):

Absolutely. You see that cycle again and again. So maybe I proved my entrepreneurial chops a little bit, but I borrowed $5 million from a hedge fund in London, basically picked up the batter and started running like hell.

Kevin Goetz (18:28):

How did you, um, get five million bucks? Had you had any track record in the beginning?

Stuart Ford (18:34):

I mean, really all I had was my pedigree as a former studio executive. Wow. And there was still the halo effect of Miramax in those days as well. So I think it was largely based on that and a little bit of personal friendships and stuff, but that was-

Kevin Goetz (18:48):

And I venture to say they got their $5 million back and then some.

Stuart Ford (18:52):

Two and a half years later, they got it back-

Kevin Goetz (18:54):

What does IM Global stand for?

Stuart Ford (18:56):

IM was international media group, and that was the German public company who insisted having- 

Kevin Goetz (19:00):

You got the name after it collapsed.

Stuart Ford (19:02):

Yeah. Well, the company didn't collapse. They basically said, "We're broke. You better find yourself another backer."

Kevin Goetz (19:08):

So you owned a majority of it or a large part of it-

Stuart Ford (19:11):

Yes. ... because

Kevin Goetz (19:12):

Your hedge fund obviously were partners in it as well.

Stuart Ford (19:13):

Yes. And so we ran with the ball for a couple of years and then we built a little bit of headway as a sales agent and then there were two films that really broke out the company.

Kevin Goetz (19:24):

What were they?

Stuart Ford (19:24):

First one, which was more of the kind of film that we used to handle in the Miramax days, which was Tom Ford's directorial debut, A Single Man.

Kevin Goetz (19:33):

That did well?

Stuart Ford (19:34):

Yeah, it did very well. We did very well with it internationally in the foreign sales marketplace, and I think the film was beautifully reviewed- Oh. ... even though-

Kevin Goetz (19:41):

It was a stunning film,

Stuart Ford (19:43):

First of all.

Kevin Goetz (19:43):

But I don't recall it being a breakout.

Stuart Ford (19:46):

Domestically, it didn't, it didn't particularly work, no.

Kevin Goetz (19:48):

And what was your second one?

Stuart Ford (19:50):

So the second one was paranormal activity.

Kevin Goetz (19:52):

I think I've heard of that one. <laugh>

Stuart Ford (19:55):

Paranormal activity had a long journey to the big screen, as you know.

Kevin Goetz (19:59):

It was Slam Dance, before it was Sundance.

Stuart Ford (20:01):

Right. It was bought by Dreamworks at Slam Dance-

Kevin Goetz (20:04):

For like some cra- the 250,000, I think.

Stuart Ford (20:06):

Well, yeah, because they really wanted it just for remake.

Kevin Goetz (20:09):

Exactly. They weren't even gona distribute it.

*Stuart Ford (20:11):

At some point, not very long after, I think maybe six months after Slam Dance, and the film was totally in limbo at Dreamworks. Nothing had happened. I was asked to watch the film, and I watched it in a conference room, bright strip lighting. There was something there, something unsettling about the film, even though obviously it was a less than ideal viewing experience, and the producers were sort of really flailing around, trying to find some way to show Dreamworks. There was a movie there, there was something to persevere with. And I made an offer for the international rights on the film.

Kevin Goetz (20:46):

You remember what you paid for them?

Stuart Ford (20:48):

$250,000.

Kevin Goetz (20:50):

That was in addition to the 250 that Dreamworks had paid?

Stuart Ford (20:53):

Yes, for the domestic and the remake rights, exactly.

Kevin Goetz (20:55):

I see. And would you have had Kissed into the remake rights had they remade it?

Stuart Ford (21:00):

No.

Kevin Goetz (21:01):

Did you get all the sequels and all of that as well?

Stuart Ford (21:03):

We got a participation in it

Kevin Goetz (21:06):

Yeah. Incredible story. Jason Blum, who's been a guest here and a dear friend, I think said it was going to home video, and it was sold, I think, wasn't it Stars? Uh-

Stuart Ford (21:17):

I mean, maybe they did a Stars deal and that bolstered them to then know that.

Kevin Goetz (21:20):

Exactly. And he begged, he begged them to get it out of what was essentially not turnaround, but to get out of the deal by paying the deal off and then getting the movie back. Something, some version of it.

*Stuart Ford (21:30):

There was a, yeah, there was a campaign, Jason, who takes a huge amount of the credit for having the vision to see what that film could be. He was constantly bombarding dreamwork saying, "You got to do something with this. " And then we, I think we played our part because Paramount acquired Dreamworks and the film was now over a paramount, but still in limbo and we decided to, although ideally we'd have had some kind of US release to tell foreign buyers about, we decided at the American film market that year, screw it, let's screen the film foreign buyers. And we orchestrated a midnight screening of the film in Santa Monica using my own old Miramax tactics, tried to pump it up a bit, you know, loud rock music, playing in the auditorium. We wouldn't let the audience in until five minutes before the theater. So as the foreign buyers were showing up, there's a line of people two blocks long to get in, like, "What's going on here?" And of course, the film in a packed movie theater played through the roof- 

Kevin Goetz (22:32):

Well, also did not have its ending yet. It's final ending.

Stuart Ford (22:34):

It's final ending, that's right. Good memory.

Kevin Goetz (22:36):

And that's when I came in.

Stuart Ford (22:37):

Okay. That's right.

Kevin Goetz (22:39):

And who was the person, if you remember, who suggested that final ending?

Stuart Ford (22:43):

Well, I'm going to say Kevin Goetz.

Kevin Goetz (22:45):

Yeah. Steven Spielberg.

Stuart Ford (22:47):

Was it?

Kevin Goetz (22:48):

It was Steven Spielberg who saw it and said, "You need to do this or this. " And apparently they did this reshoot. It came back, we tested it, came up 15 points, 20 points, and that's when you had.

Stuart Ford (23:00):

That's how Paramount decided, "Okay, we'll give it a go now. We'll release it. "

Kevin Goetz (23:03):

It shows you listeners just how much all of us have a little bit of input from all these different touch points. What do they say? Success has many parents. <laugh>

Stuart Ford (23:11):

Right. Absolutely. And that film somehow wiggled its way through to become- 

Kevin Goetz (23:16):

But it did take a lot of us to do different things on it. I think Jason should take most of the credit.

Stuart Ford (23:20):

Yes.

Kevin Goetz (23:20):

You benefited greatly. I didn't realize you took those rights genius.

Stuart Ford (23:24):

Bought me a house and two years later we sold the company to Reliance, the big Indian conglomerate, which actually to join the Dots back to Spielberg. They had also invested- Dreamworks. In Dreamworks. And IM Global was there slightly off the radar, little independent acquisition. I used to call myself the Flea on the Elephant's Ear to Spielberg. And so now, I'd sold the company, I'd made money, we'd built some headway, and things were getting interesting.

Kevin Goetz (23:50):

When we come back, we're gonna continue to talk to Stuart about his life continuing with I Am Global, and then starting his next iteration. We'll be back in a moment. Listeners, the Motion Picture and Television Fund is a nonprofit charitable organization that supports working and retired members of the entertainment community. This wonderfully run organization offers assistance for living and aging with dignity and purpose in the areas of health and social services, including temporary financial assistance, case management, and residential living, and has been a crucial lifeline to thousands during and beyond critical times that our industry continues to experience. To learn more, visit mptf.com. Please join me in helping others in our industry during times of need. There are so many ways to offer support and get involved. Thank you. We're back with Stuart Ford. Stuart, you're now off to the races. You have two successful movies under your belt.

(25:04):

What happens? How do you evolve the company? Because now you're getting involved in producing. Now you're getting involved in bigger financing deals.

Stuart Ford (25:11):

Yeah.

Kevin Goetz (25:11):

What happens?

*Stuart Ford (25:13):

Well, you're exactly right. So with the reliance backing, we decided, okay, we have to start owning these films, not just selling other people's. And again, that's where I think the entrepreneurial drive and zest comes from, because it becomes a much more interesting business when you're not on the hamster wheel of make a movie, sell a movie, make a movie, sell a movie, is make a movie, own a movie forever.

Kevin Goetz (25:34):

And what were some of the early movies that you owned?

Stuart Ford (25:36):

The first film we ever financed was a Jason Statham film called Safe.

Kevin Goetz (25:41):

God, he's so reliable.

Stuart Ford (25:42):

Well, you know, funnily enough, at that point, he was not that reliable because all he'd really done was Expendables, which was really more of an ensemble film. And a few British things like The Bank Job. So we were one of the first financiers to take the leap on let's make a by Indie Standards reasonably expensive movie where it's all about him.

Kevin Goetz (26:00):

And what else?

Stuart Ford (26:02):

We financed a bunch more action movies.

Kevin Goetz (26:04):

You owned them.

Stuart Ford (26:04):

Yeah, we owned them, but at that time, those kind of mid-budget action programmers were quite a fertile space to play in, in the indie world.

Kevin Goetz (26:11):

There's a couple of particular movies I just want to focus on because I worked on almost all of your movies. You've been a wonderfully loyal client to me. And we've been friends for so many years, but you understand the power of the audience. You have been a advocate like I have of really listening to the audience. Absolutely. And as an indie, spend the money. You put your money where your mouth is to really try to unpack what they're saying and to get their opinions. Hacksaw Ridge is one very near and dear to me, as my godson's father was the impetus of that whole thing, Gregory Crosby, who brought it to David Permut, who brought it to Bill Mechanic. How did you get involved in that? Because it ended up being nominated for an Academy Award, of course, and

Stuart Ford (26:53):

It was- I think it won a couple.

Kevin Goetz (26:54):

A couple. Spectacular movie.

*Stuart Ford (26:55):

Yeah. That was brought to us by David Permut who was looking for co-financing. It was Bill who brought it to us, now you mention it, but he was looking for co-financing. He had someone willing to write a check against the domestic rights, but he still needed, I think, $28 million or something. So we took quite a big leap of faith and we pre-bought the international rights for a $28 million minimum guarantee.

Kevin Goetz (27:20):

And MG is the word we use. The acronym for minimum guarantee, that is an enormous amount of money. Even with Mel Gibson. And Mel Gibson, who had some challenges in the domestic space- Of course. ... but still was very, very strong in the international space. Fair to say?

Stuart Ford (27:36):

Yeah, I think as a director, he still had a lot of fans in the international space, but it was a risky film. It was a World War II-

Kevin Goetz (27:43):

It's a World War II action drama

Stuart Ford (27:44):

pacifist starring Andrew Garfield. This was not a slam dunk.

Kevin Goetz (27:49):

And you better lean into that action or you're gonna be sitting on a really expensive drama and the action was nonstop. It was so spectacular. You must've been very proud of that.

*Stuart Ford (28:00):

That worked out really well. I would say in that IM Global period, the two films that from a cinematic perspective I'm most proud of, it was that one. And then we also co-financed for, again, a big number, Martin Scorsese's film, Silence, which he'd wanted to make for about 30 years, and we put up pretty significant chunk of the budget on that film.

Kevin Goetz (28:20):

Did he stay on budget?

Stuart Ford (28:22):

He only went over by a little bit. And my exposure was capped, so frankly, I wasn't looking too closely. It was like -

Kevin Goetz (28:28):

You didn't mention one that I really, really liked called Midway.

Stuart Ford (28:32):

Midway. So that was an AGC film. 

Kevin Goetz (28:34):

Okay, So then, perfect segue to get to AGC. Yeah. Because I want to move this along, because we could stay here literally for five hours and feel like time just- Movies. Yeah. Yeah. Tell me about how you got into AGC. You ultimately sold IM Global and the reliance of it all, correct?

Stuart Ford (28:50):

Yeah, so Reliance and I sold IM Global, if you like, for a third time. There's a hedge fund- Absolutely. ... this reliance. Then we sold it to a Chinese private equity group in 2016 for fairly significant amount of money.

Kevin Goetz (29:04):

And you had to stay on?

Stuart Ford (29:05):

I had to stay on, but not for long, as is often the case when the founder and captain of the ship is no longer in charge of the ship, tensions arose, so I was out of there within a year. 

Kevin Goetz (29:16):

Good for you.

Stuart Ford (29:17):

Well, also, I was out of there with my then partners having not perhaps played things as well as they could have done, so I had no non-compete obstacles, no non-solicitation obstacles, and I was able to go out, raise capital pretty quickly and go up the streets and start AGC Studios, which we did in 2018.

Kevin Goetz (29:36):

2018.

Stuart Ford (29:37):

Yes.

Kevin Goetz (29:37):

And what are you most proud of with AGC?

*Stuart Ford (29:40):

We're still here. <laugh> It's been unbelievably-

Kevin Goetz (29:44):

Good times. ... bum times. I've seen it all.

Stuart Ford (29:47):

We've made nearly 45 films and TV shows.

Kevin Goetz (29:51):

They're such impressive titles. Give me three of them.

*Stuart Ford (29:55):

Hitman, Woman of the Hour. We made a great documentary, The Tinder Swindler that's It became a huge success. We made one of the biggest independently financed TV shows ever. Those about to die with Roland Emmerich. Uh-

Kevin Goetz (30:09):

You mean it was about to die and you resurrected it?

Stuart Ford (30:11):

It? Oh, no. We, we made it then it died. <laugh> We made it- You made it and it failed? I don't think it failed. It did quite well internationally. It didn't do well enough domestically to justify a second season. But you came out okay? We came out really well. We made maybe a seven or 8% margin on 10 hours television at $15 million an hour. We did just fine.

Kevin Goetz (30:30):

What about Moonfall?

Stuart Ford (30:31):

Moonfall, we weren't a financier on, we were a seller. So I'm not sure whether the financiers of that film have recouped yet, but we did okay, frankly, out of sales fees.

Kevin Goetz (30:40):

Is the presale market dead?

Stuart Ford (30:42):

No, absolutely not.

Kevin Goetz (30:43):

Not?

Stuart Ford (30:43):

No, the presale market's very much alive and kicking. We're making five, six films a year using that model, but it has evolved.

Kevin Goetz (30:51):

Tell us how it's evolved, because it used to be, oh my Lord, AFM or any of those markets where you would come in with a letter from some star that would enable you to bank these projections. That doesn't exist anymore, does it?

*Stuart Ford (31:09):

No, no, that's, I think in the wild welfare I was- That's where I was going. Yeah. I first got into the foreign sales business when I was at Miramax running Miramax International. So as you could imagine, by then it was a pretty evolved sophisticated business. We were doing $500 million a year in international sales and it was all about in the Miramax way, the presentation, the marketing campaign, the publicity, the, you know, it was all about showmanship, but it was also about showing distributors why this film was a good bet for them to take. It was making them believe this film is an asset, not a risk. So I've sort of tried to stay true to that principle throughout the last 20 years. And the foreign presale market still works very well, but I think maybe the bullseye has gotten smaller and you really have to assemble and structure the film near perfectly for the economics to work. So the budget level has to be right. The commercial auspices of the film have to be right. The talent package has to be commensurate with those two things. The marketing proposition has to be clear, et cetera, et cetera. There's quite a lot of nuances.

Kevin Goetz (32:17):

As I think you know in my new book, How to Score in Hollywood, its focus is on the pre-green light stage.

Stuart Ford (32:24):

Yes.

Kevin Goetz (32:25):

And understanding the notion of sizing your audience correctly.

Stuart Ford (32:29):

Yes.

Kevin Goetz (32:29):

Thus comping it correctly.

Stuart Ford (32:31):

Yes.

Kevin Goetz (32:31):

Too many people comp incorrectly and they aspire to comps rather than really knowing what they have-

Stuart Ford (32:38):

Mm-hmm.

Kevin Goetz (32:39):

... in terms of the intensity of interest, the number of passionate advocates a movie may bring in. And I see movie after movie being made for too much money- Yes. ... and breaking their model. How do you ensure that you are budgeting correctly?

*Stuart Ford (32:57):

Well, firstly, experience, I think the longer you do it, the more clear eyed you get, because it's very easy in this bubble that we live in for everybody to get carried away with a certain filmmaker or certain actor or whatever it is. You really have to look at it with an ice cold glare. You have to understand the true financial potential of the film in the current landscape today, and you have to take a responsible attitude towards risk. And you asked before, why am I still here? Well, I think one of the things is that I've learned over the years to assess and manage risk, but by doing that in a relatively clear-eyed, I hope, sophisticated way, that also then allows you to take creative risk because financial risk and creative risk go hand in hand.

Kevin Goetz (33:45):

Tom Rothman speaks about that very much in the book.

Stuart Ford (33:47):

Right. And you can't really take creative risk, particularly in the current economic environment without taking some financial risk. So you have to find a way to marry the two in a way that's gonna work.

Kevin Goetz (34:00):

What's a time when it didn't work for you? You just broke your own model or it broke the model because you didn't follow your gut.

Stuart Ford (34:08):

Didn't follow our gut. Oh, there's been a few hours.

Kevin Goetz (34:10):

Or your spreadsheet, quite frankly.

Stuart Ford (34:13):

Yeah. 

Kevin Goetz (34:14):

There had to be something that you feel like, "I love the movie, but I just made it for too much money."

Stuart Ford (34:19):

Yeah. We made a film called Poolman, Chris Pine's directorial debut, which was a risky film. And I was happy with it going in, this is a risky movie. It's a screwball noir comedy that's an homage to '70s cinema. That's a pretty <laugh> esoteric first film for an actor to write and direct.

Kevin Goetz (34:39):

And he wasn't in it.

Stuart Ford (34:39):

He was in it. He was in it.

Kevin Goetz (34:41):

Oh, so that helped. 

Stuart Ford (34:42):

Well, this- 

Kevin Goetz (34:43):

If he weren't in it, would you have done it?

Stuart Ford (34:44):

No. But it was always risky, but I really liked Chris tremendously as a partner and as a filmmaker, and I allowed myself maybe to just drink the Kool-Aid by 10%, 20% on a- 

Kevin Goetz (34:58):

That's how much you lost.

Stuart Ford (34:59):

That's, uh, us. That's difference between-

Kevin Goetz (35:01):

I love that. And I love the honesty because it's only gonna help people. I will say that you essentially broke your own model.

Stuart Ford (35:08):

Yeah.

Kevin Goetz (35:08):

And I think that is what's really important here. If you stick with it, I have a theory, Stuart, which you may think is a little hyperbolic and perhaps it is, every movie, if made and marketed for the right price should make money, every movie, because I've worked on over 5,000 titles, and what I've learned is there is always an audience, maybe for one, maybe for 10, maybe 100. Yeah. But if you know that, you better make the thing for $10,000 or you make it for 11, you're gonna lose a grand. Right. Do you understand? Absolutely. And most people will say, "How many times in your career have you heard, Stuart, you're not gonna believe it's the budget?" It's only 1.2. And you're like, Well, that could be 1.1 more than it should be.

Stuart Ford (35:53):

Yeah. I often hear we could make this for less than 15 million dollars. And I think, yeah, you should make it for 10 million dollars less than 15 million dollars.

Kevin Goetz (36:01):

That is a great line. Yeah. And I use it all the time, I must say. Not that particular case, but very similar. When I go into film schools, I said this a number of times, I'll kind of trick the students. I'll get one little sucker from the class of 60 and I'll say, "Who's gonna pitch me a movie?" And someone will pitch. First, I say to them, "Who is this movie for? " What do they always say?

Stuart Ford (36:23):

For everybody.

Kevin Goetz (36:24):

Exactly. But it's not for everybody, because then I ask the class, "Okay, I'm gonna give you some choices here. Based on this concept, I'm gonna read the concept. I'm definitely interested in it, probably interested in it, probably not, or definitely not. " And you'll see, who's definitely interested? Three hands go up, one is his roommate and the other one's a frat brother. Or, and the guy who pitched it, 10 hands go up of probably interested, probably not, maybe 36 hands. Yeah. <laugh> And usually they don't hate on other students. You get maybe two or three at the end or whatever, you know, you get where I'm going? So they see in front of everyone that they're, A, they don't have a movie for everybody and B, they don't even have buy-in from that many people who are positive about it.

Stuart Ford (37:08):

Yeah.

Kevin Goetz (37:08):

And I say, "What's your budget?" They say $4 million. I said, "Where did you get that? " Well, my friend is a line producer and he did a budget for me. I said, "But based on what? Based on what? "

Stuart Ford (37:19):

Yeah.

Kevin Goetz (37:19):

And again, it could be $3.8 million too much.

*Stuart Ford (37:23):

Yeah. Look, there's always push-pull in that area. One of the privileges of what I do is I get to work to partner essentially with often world-class filmmakers in finding a way for them to make their film.

Kevin Goetz (37:37):

Fair play. But in fact, you used a phrase just then, which I really appreciated. I just don't think that if they are missing that much, they're certainly not asking the right questions, and they don't have the right makeup to do what you're suggesting of having the fiduciary responsibility along with the creative vision.

Stuart Ford (38:00):

Mm-hmm.

Kevin Goetz (38:01):

You need both.

Stuart Ford (38:01):

You do need both. 

Kevin Goetz (38:02):

And if you don't have one, you're gonna lose money.

Stuart Ford (38:05):

Right.

Kevin Goetz (38:05):

Most likely, because it's a hard business to make money in.

Stuart Ford (38:08):

Right. But it's interesting. There are filmmakers who do sometimes unexpectedly so, but I made a movie with Doug Liman a few years ago, and Doug's used to doing huge studio films. 

Kevin Goetz (38:18):

I think the guy's a Genius, by the way.

Stuart Ford (38:19):

Right. He got it, and we made it for the right number, and we made money on the film. I made a movie with Ron Howard recently.

Kevin Goetz (38:26):

Which one?

Stuart Ford (38:27):

Eden.

Kevin Goetz (38:27):

I love that movie, Eden. I thought that was a terrific picture. The problem with Eden, I think, was it was a bit of a feathered fish- Yeah. ... in that ... And feathered fish can work, meaning a feathered fish doesn't swim nor fly, but at the same time, it was a suspense thriller, and it had this sort of dramatic element to it. It had a mystery to it. There was a lot going on there.

Stuart Ford (38:49):

Yeah. And look, we were well aware of that going in, but-

Kevin Goetz (38:53):

Who wouldn't back Ron Howard?

*Stuart Ford (38:54):

Right. Well, also back Ron Howard at the right number. Ron was responsive and very diligent about the budget. He brought it in at the number that we asked him to bring it in at, and ultimately we'll be fine on that film. And in some ways, although it wasn't perceived as a success because the theatrical box office was pretty low, it's actually a good case study in risk management because that allowed me to partner with a world-class filmmaker and a hero of mine on making what was ostensibly a little bit of a risky film, but nobody's gonna get hurt because we managed our risk upfront. We sold all the international rights almost exclusively to Amazon upfront. We covered a big portion of that budget.

Kevin Goetz (39:34):

So that means that there is no one that will lose money on this.

Stuart Ford (39:37):

No.

Kevin Goetz (39:38):

And many movies, there is someone who's holding the bag.

Stuart Ford (39:42):

Someone's nearly always holding the bag on independent films.

Kevin Goetz (39:45):

But you managed your risk correctly. Right. Boy, that would be a great case study to unpack.

Stuart Ford (39:49):

Right.

Kevin Goetz (39:50):

You and I should do that on a, on a panel sometime.

Stuart Ford (39:52):

It's very ... So we managed our risk correctly on Rick Linklater's movie. We made a lot of money.

Kevin Goetz (39:56):

Which one?

Stuart Ford (39:56):

Hitman. Yeah. We made a lot of money, but we managed our risk going in. We were- 

Kevin Goetz (39:59):

Did you make the second one?

Stuart Ford (40:01):

The film subsequent to Hitman? Yeah. No, there's a TV spin off that we're working on. That's what I meant. Yeah. We're working on a TV score. You are. Oh, great. Great, great, great. I'm still here because we manage risk astutely.

Kevin Goetz (40:11):

I was just gonna ask you, seriously, all hyperbole, all kudos and all that deliciousness aside, why are you still here? And why is Glen Basner still here, for example? Like, you guys are two guys, Nick Meyer, same thing. Like, why are you guys at the top of your game still? I mean, for years, what do you do better, stronger, faster than anyone else?

*Stuart Ford (40:36):

I think it's marrying creative risk taking with prudent financial investment, and then being good at execution.

Kevin Goetz (40:45):

Let's go beyond that. I'm gonna say there's a lot of people who could probably claim that. I think taste has something to do with it. Mm-hmm. I think deep relationships have a lot to do with it.

Stuart Ford (41:01):

Yeah.

Kevin Goetz (41:02):

You're getting the best material.

Stuart Ford (41:04):

Often, and also, I think maybe we're monetizing it better than most ... Again, because of deep relationships.

Kevin Goetz (41:09):

You've earned the trust-

Stuart Ford (41:11):

Right.

Kevin Goetz (41:11):

... from major financiers-

Stuart Ford (41:13):

Yeah.

Kevin Goetz (41:13):

To have them take a flyer on you or they won't with a smaller entity.

Stuart Ford (41:16):

That's true. All the banks will lend to us when they're generally pretty risk averse. These days, we have major international distributors and broadcasters who will pre-buy films from us because they have a high level of confidence in the execution and our capacity to deliver. The foreign sales market is not easy right now, but as I said earlier, it still works perfectly well when you can click into the groove of motivated buyers wanting to pre-buy the project, the project making sense, and we're still good at that. And it's still a good business when you do it astutely.

Kevin Goetz (41:52):

What turns you on within your business the most? The deal making initially, the obtaining the financing, the acquisition of the material. Where do you, Stuart, have the greatest passion?

*Stuart Ford (42:09):

Building something, building an asset, building a library.

Kevin Goetz (42:13):

Oh, you mean the macro of it?

Stuart Ford (42:15):

Well, absolutely the macro.

Kevin Goetz (42:16):

So the company of it.

*Stuart Ford (42:17):

The company of it, but then also it's the body of work. They're one and the same. We have a library, we've only been around for six years or so, but we own about 40 films and TV shows.

Kevin Goetz (42:28):

Do you really already?

*Stuart Ford (42:29):

Yeah. So we own those. We'll own them forever unless and until we sell the library. And also I can look at that and say, "That's a body of work that we created or certainly helped create in a material way." And I find that motivating. And then of course, as a business person, the fact that you're creating an asset that is worth tens of millions of dollars, hopefully hundreds of millions of dollars one day, that's a good way of getting yourself out of bed in the morning.

Kevin Goetz (42:55):

Let's talk about our business. Mm-hmm. It's changing before our eyes.

Stuart Ford (42:59):

Yes.

Kevin Goetz (43:01):

I have gone on record a number of times saying that I think there's great opportunity. I will subsequently get calls from several friends who will ask me to lunch to explain what those opportunities are. Mm-hmm. I have a feeling you agree with me.

Stuart Ford (43:17):

Absolutely.

Kevin Goetz (43:18):

I'd like to know where you think they are and where you think this business is heading in the next three to five.

*Stuart Ford (43:23):

I'll talk in the context of the independent film business, because ostensibly that's what I know. I'm actually optimistic about the independent film business. It has always reinvented itself. It is a business that almost by definition operates outside of the mainstream studio system, or these days, the studio and streamer system. And although in times of change, I think independent film sometimes feels the pressure or feels the pain first, it's also the first to adapt. And I think the business model of independent film is evolving. I think it will continue to evolve, and I think there's a good business model at the end of it for those of us who can get to the next leg of the journey.

Kevin Goetz (44:07):

Is the studio system dead?

Stuart Ford (44:09):

It's not dead, but it's not expanding. I think it's a tent pole business, it's an event movie business. 

Kevin Goetz (44:15):

Period, full stop.

Stuart Ford (44:15):

That's it. And however many studios we will be left with three or four, they'll put out 12 tentpoles a year, that will be the studio business. The studios have more or less abdicated the universe of intelligent movies for adults. Yeah. Independent film has always prospered in that respect, and I think is going to grab the mantle even further. And I think there are audiences globally for authentic voices, original voices, intelligent voices.

Kevin Goetz (44:48):

Well, I think the word event is something you used. I think studios are in the business and will be in the near future in the business of creating event movies that justify people leaving their homes to go see.

Stuart Ford (45:02):

Yes.

Kevin Goetz (45:03):

And that might be a movie for everybody, most likely will be-

Stuart Ford (45:07):

Yeah.

Kevin Goetz (45:07):

... in the case of recent hits like Wicked For Good and Zootopia. At the same time, there are some movies for somebody-

Stuart Ford (45:17):

Yeah.

Kevin Goetz (45:18):

... that could be studio movies that are maybe geared for older and younger men or older men and older women.

Stuart Ford (45:25):

Yeah.

Kevin Goetz (45:25):

But the notion of a lot of the movies that you have made and continue to make are what I call psychographically driven movies that are attitudes and behaviors, and you don't need huge marketing spends to find them. You can get them more strategically, more surgically, more digitally.

Stuart Ford (45:42):

Yes.

Kevin Goetz (45:42):

And that's a great boon for your business because I would imagine that the studios are basically distribution entities principally and content suppliers secondarily-

Stuart Ford (45:56):

Yes.

Kevin Goetz (45:56):

... where you become the content supplier principally and can use multiple mechanisms for your distribution studios being one of them.

*Stuart Ford (46:06):

Right. The theatrical business for independent films is going to be about getting people's attention, but you only need the attention of the people you need to see the film. You don't need everybody's attention the way a mass market studio films.

Kevin Goetz (46:20):

Well, it's so funny. I say that, um, uh, constantly in defensive Netflix, which I think do an amazing job. And people say, "Well, the quality of the movies." And I say, "The quality of movie is great for what you need to see and for what you're supposed to see."

Stuart Ford (46:32):

Yeah.

Kevin Goetz (46:32):

I said, "What do you mean by that? " And I said, "We're not meant to see every movie on Netflix. The design of that company is there are so many different audiences and they're making movies for different people. "

Stuart Ford (46:43):

Yeah.

Kevin Goetz (46:44):

And so, as I said, there's an audience for everybody. The sheer ubiquitous nature of that company i- is sort of brilliant because it has taken the replacement of what was, if you go back 40 years, network television.

Stuart Ford (47:00):

Yes, exactly.

Kevin Goetz (47:02):

Which appealed to the masses.

Stuart Ford (47:03):

Yes.

Kevin Goetz (47:04):

And then cable came in, became much more fractured and fragmented.

Stuart Ford (47:08):

Mm-hmm.

Kevin Goetz (47:09):

And so that's what created more of the indie film-

Stuart Ford (47:13):

People sometimes make the misassumption that the indie film model was this monolithic thing that did just fine for 35 years and now it's broken. It was always evolving. You mentioned cable. Yeah, the advent of cable television in the '80s and '90s was what enabled people to start financing movies independently because they'd presell those cable TV rights and that wasn't network television, that was a little bit niche, but it was a revenue source. Then you had the home entertainment boom, people could presell home entertainment rights. Then you had the foreign market boom, people started to presell international. The model was always evolving, and it's evolving now, so-

Kevin Goetz (47:51):

But far, far, far fewer outlets now is the only problem with the ancillary windows.

Stuart Ford (47:57):

I think that will change. So you're right. The, you know- 

Kevin Goetz (47:59):

Where do they go?

*Stuart Ford (47:59):

Where do they come from? The problem we have right now is production budgets are too high, and P&A marketing costs are too high relative to the revenue that's likely to be obtained on, you know, certainly in the initial three to five years of the film's life cycle. Yeah, you're right, you're right. But I believe, well, I think it's probably a given that production costs are gonna come down. It's a given that as marketing becomes more scientific, more data driven, marketing costs will come down. And I think the post-theatrical model will evolve so that there are more points of revenue.

Kevin Goetz (48:36):

Where do they come from?

Stuart Ford (48:37):

Well, I think that the technology will evolve apart from anything else. You know, right now, the bane of the independent film sector is that the streamers who typically take that pay one streaming window have decided in the last few years, they don't want to pay that much money for independent films.

Kevin Goetz (48:54):

Or they're not fully exploiting ... There's a point of which they only need it for excellent amount of time.

Stuart Ford (49:01):

Right.

Kevin Goetz (49:01):

By holding onto it, they'd be far better to sell it to a third or fourth window.

Stuart Ford (49:06):

Absolutely. And I think there's an irref-

Kevin Goetz (49:08):

Is that happening more now, Stuart?

Stuart Ford (49:09):

Yeah. There's an irrefusible logic to the fact the streamers should not hold onto these rights in perpetuity worldwide.

Kevin Goetz (49:14):

Are you seeing that happen?

*Stuart Ford (49:15):

Absolutely. You can carve out free TV rights or AVOD rights or EST rights, c- split international territories. That is a big part of the future. It's evolving all the time. I think the streaming business will also get more competitive for independent movies. I'm actually quite bullish on the model for those of us that can stay in the game and keep doing good stuff for the next two or three years.

Kevin Goetz (49:35):

I’m bullish on what you do, very much so. AI is certainly gonna have not a little effect, a tremendous, a mind boggling effect on our business. None of us know how it's gonna play out, but if you consider what it can do-

Stuart Ford (49:51):

Mm-hmm.

Kevin Goetz (49:53):

... one of the positives, I think, is that the democratization of-

Stuart Ford (49:57):

Yes. ...

Kevin Goetz (49:58):

Movie making- mm-hmm. ... is only gonna get bigger and more intense.

Stuart Ford (50:01):

Absolutely.

Kevin Goetz (50:02):

But it is, has to drive costs down. It's not gonna be good for certain craftspeople and certain performers and so forth, but at the end of the day, there's gonna be a great deal of opportunity using AI to, uh- Exactly. ... to create all kinds of things

Stuart Ford (50:20):

To entry is, is gonna get lower.

Kevin Goetz (50:21):

Exactly. But, but-

Stuart Ford (50:22):

And on a global basis as well, let's not forget that.

Kevin Goetz (50:24):

Oh, and homegrown product. Right. I just saw technology that's essentially, I can't imagine it not putting out the dubbing business. Absolutely. It's, it's using the actor's voice to speak in Mandarin, in French- Yeah. ... in Spanish, English-

Stuart Ford (50:38):

Right.

Kevin Goetz (50:38):

... in Turkish. I mean-

*Stuart Ford (50:39):

Which is just gonna accelerate the accessibility of non-English language content coming into the US and English language content potentially proving even more popular overseas. Marry that to the fact that because of the lower barrier to entry in terms of production costs, you have, you know, whether it's Latin America, whether it's Africa, where you have huge amounts of talent, but right now they are capital starved, or if you have the Middle East where you have also rapidly evolving societal structures, a burgeoning creative class states where the population is 70% of the people are under the age of 40, and of that 70%, two-thirds of them speak English perfectly. We're gonna see so much more international filmmaking- Yeah. ... in the next three to five years and the next 10 years, which again, the independent film sector has always been the place where people take risks, where originality finds a pathway. And it's hard not to be super optimistic about the creative potential of that in the coming years.

Kevin Goetz (51:44):

I agree. And you know, the bar to quality has risen, meaning quality is a ticket to entry now. There's just too many great things out there.

Stuart Ford (51:53):

Mm-hmm.

Kevin Goetz (51:54):

Good is not good enough. It hasn't been for a while.

Stuart Ford (51:56):

Yeah.

Kevin Goetz (51:57):

But even if you're making a movie, I talk about democratization movie, you better be making a great movie, and there's gonna be a lot of young stars out there, young filmmakers who are gonna make great little movies. I mean, that's just the way of the world, isn't it? In terms of the talented ones will ultimately get through and succeed, but nobody wants to see subpar content on any platform.

Stuart Ford (52:19):

No.

Kevin Goetz (52:20):

No. No one wants to see things that are like in our day growing up, direct to video movie. That doesn't exist anymore. Everything's gotta be great.

Stuart Ford (52:29):

Right.

Kevin Goetz (52:29):

And so I think for my business, I'm excited about it because more testing, more aiming for the best version of whatever it is-

Stuart Ford (52:38):

Yeah.

Kevin Goetz (52:39):

... which excites me a lot.

Stuart Ford (52:41):

Right.

Kevin Goetz (52:41):

Let me ask you what you would say to a young person in film school today coming up in the world, what should they be doing? What should they be thinking about vis-a-vis where the world is going?

*Stuart Ford (52:53):

Well, if they're a creative person, I think despite the business challenges, despite the audience fragmentation challenges, I think there's a evolving and increasing demand for authenticity and originality. And I think my advice would be never lose sight of that in your creative endeavors.

Kevin Goetz (53:15):

And the only thing I would add to that, which I think is brilliant advice is what you said before, keep your financial and fiduciary hat on while also keeping the creative hat on. Yeah. Because you can't have one without the other. Right. And again, I go back to how to score in Hollywood. I wanted to unpack that because it means so much to me. Of course. And the success, and I think the ultimate growth of our business is gonna depend on responsible filmmaking.

Stuart Ford (53:46):

Yes, absolutely.

Kevin Goetz (53:48):

Responsible filmmaking.

*Stuart Ford (53:50):

Right. And, you know, they say necessity as the mother of invention. Responsible filmmaking doesn't necessarily mean compromising on creativity. It just means doing it at the right number.

Kevin Goetz (54:03):

Couldn't have said it better myself. Stuart Ford, thank you so much for being here, for joining me. You've been a friend of mine for, I don't know, how many years now, and I've watched you grow. So proud of your success, and I just hope that we have many, many more years of working together.

Stuart Ford (54:18):

Well, here's to that. It's been a real pleasure, Kevin. Thank you.

Kevin Goetz (54:23):

To our listeners, I hope you enjoyed this conversation. For more insights into filmmaking, audience testing, and the business of Hollywood, I invite you to check out my books, Audienceology, and How to Score in Hollywood at Amazon, or through my website at KevinGoetz360.com. You can also follow me on my social media. Next time on Don't Kill the Messenger, I'll welcome veteran television executive and former chairwoman and CEO of Warner Brothers Entertainment, Anne Sarnoff. Until then, I'm Kevin Goetz, and to you, our listeners, I appreciate you being part of the movie making process. Your opinions matter.

Host: Kevin Goetz
Guest: Stuart Ford
Producer: Kari Campano
Writers: Kevin Goetz, Darlene Hayman, and Kari Campano
Audio Engineer: Gary Forbes (DG Entertainment)