Podcast: Don't Kill the Messenger with Movie Research Expert Kevin Goetz
Guest: Ann Sarnoff

Interview Transcript:

Announcer (00:03):

From script to screen, every film is brought to life by visionary creatives and executives, all sharing one mission to captivate the audience. Hosted by award-winning movie strategist Kevin Goetz, our podcast, Don't Kill the Messenger, offers a filmmaking masterclass through intimate conversations with Hollywood's most influential voices. And now, your host, Kevin Goetz.

Kevin Goetz (00:29):

The entertainment business has always been shaped by technological change, from silent films giving way to talkies, black-and-white to color, and television entering the living room. Starting with the major expansions of cable television, my guest today has worked at the center of the industry as it adapted to new waves of change. Ann Sarnoff has held leadership roles at Viacom, Nickelodeon, and the BBC. And in 2019, she became the first female chair and CEO of a major Hollywood studio when she joined Warner Brothers, guiding one of the industry's most iconic companies during a period of massive change. Today, she serves on several boards, including Regal CineWorld, giving her a unique vantage point on the evolving relationship between theatrical exhibition and streaming. And it is such an honor to have you here. Welcome to my show.

Ann Sarnoff (01:29):

Thank you, Kevin. I'm so happy to be here. It's fun to see your studio and see the room where it happens.

Kevin Goetz (01:36):

The room where it happens, the room where it happens. Did you ever see Hamilton?

Ann Sarnoff (01:39):

Of course. <laugh> How many times?

Kevin Goetz (01:42):

You know, I often talk about Hamilton as being a, an inflection point for me as far as audience evangelism and being a passionate advocate. I was one of the nerds that read the Ron Chernow book. Mm. So when I heard that was being made, period, I leaned in. Then when I heard it was Lin-Manuel Miranda.

Ann Sarnoff (02:02):

I know.

Kevin Goetz (02:03):

Then I heard it was a musical.

Ann Sarnoff (02:04):

Right.

Kevin Goetz (02:04):

Lean in more. Then I heard it was a public theater. I literally would have paid in the low thousands for a ticket at that moment without knowing anything about it.

Ann Sarnoff (02:13):

And you didn't know what kind of musical.

Kevin Goetz (02:15):

Exactly. And I knew nothing else. Mm-hmm. But it shows you that the initial buy-in to an idea can be so impactful and can inform the green light, the budget, et cetera.

Ann Sarnoff (02:28):

I wonder if you could have predicted the massive success, because I know you've talked about things that are one of a kind or the first of a kind. And that broke so many barriers in so many ways.

Kevin Goetz (02:39):

I don't think I could have. Yeah.

Ann Sarnoff (02:40):

But

Kevin Goetz (02:41):

I certainly could speak for myself. I would have had to comp it correctly to make sure that I wasn't being hyperbolic about it.

Ann Sarnoff (02:48):

Mm.

Kevin Goetz (02:48):

Now, Ann, you are responsible and have had your hand in so many wonderful pieces of content, television shows, movies that have withstood the test of time. I wanna start with how it all began for you. Mm-hmm. Where does Anngrow up? What informs Ann as a child- Mm. ... to get into this business?

Ann Sarnoff (03:11):

The early indicators were probably not there <laugh> versus some of the other podcasts I've heard, but there was nothing in my childhood that was leading me. Where are you from? Down this path. Wilbraham, Massachusetts, outside of Springfield.

Kevin Goetz (03:25):

So pretty suburban.

Ann Sarnoff (03:27):

Yeah. And also a blue collar part of the town. A lot of working class people dares- 

Kevin Goetz (03:32):

So your parents were working class?

Ann Sarnoff (03:32):

Oh, yeah. Various ethnicities gathered, you know, when people immigrated to this country, this was the Polish neighborhood, this was the Italian neighborhood, this was the Puerto Rican neighborhood. It was very much-

Kevin Goetz (03:43):

Diversified.

Ann Sarnoff (03:44):

Well, no, they weren't necessarily integrated. I went to the Polish-

Kevin Goetz (03:48):

Are you-

Ann Sarnoff (03:48):

... A

Kevin Goetz (03:48):

Polish descent?

Ann Sarnoff (03:49):

Yes. Yes. Polish Catholic.

Kevin Goetz (03:51):

Very interesting.

Ann Sarnoff (03:52):

Yeah. 

Kevin Goetz (03:52):

Did you speak Polish as a kid?

Ann Sarnoff (03:53):

No, but I got yelled at in Polish.

Kevin Goetz (03:56):

We all did. <laugh> And mine was Yiddish, but it's the same principle. So very fun and surprising in a way because you have an extraordinary education. I know you went to Georgetown for undergrad.

*Ann Sarnoff (04:06):

Yeah. I'll tell you why. Well, I got good grades in school, thankfully, and I attribute the grades and the fact that I played sports from an early age. I think helped with my competitive instinct and teamwork, which you know is a big thing later in life, you know, in terms of working in a company, leading a company. I didn't really know that at the time that that was gonna be a critical skill I would build. But I played three varsity sports in high school. Which ones? Softball, basketball, and field hockey. And I was elected team captain of those three. And I think that helped me in terms of applying to college to round out the academics. And then the real game changer was I was a late in life baby, a little bit of an oops after my parents had the first three kids, right after my dad got back from World War II.

(04:55):

Then there was an 11 year span after the last one to me. It is a,

Kevin Goetz (04:58):

Quite a difference.

Ann Sarnoff (04:59):

Pretty much at least a half, if not a whole generation. And one of my sisters married a guy in Maryland, and I had no idea what to do in terms of college or career. And she said, "You should go to Georgetown. Georgetown's a great school. You can be near me. " So I applied early. It was the year after Georgetown instituted a needs blind admissions policy, which means if you apply and you get in, they will meet your full financial need. And I got the big envelope in the mail. So thanks to my sister for- Full freight. ... telling me ... Well, it was first loans, then work study. So I worked all the time in college. Then they would give you a grant to top it up if you still needed money after the loans in the work study.

Kevin Goetz (05:38):

Wow.

Ann Sarnoff (05:39):

Yeah. I didn't know what to do leaving college. I was a marketing major. You would appreciate that. And there weren't a lot of marketing companies coming to Georgetown to recruit. I think Procter & Gamble out of Cincinnati was the only one. And I ended up getting a job at the last minute right before I graduated at a boutique consulting firm. It was called Michael Kaiser Associates. Michael had spun out of a larger firm called Strategic Planning Associates. He started his own boutique firm with another one of the partners, Bob Pfeiffer. And there were nine of us.

Kevin Goetz (06:11):

I often talk about finding your and your A&D and-

Ann Sarnoff (06:14):

Yeah.

Kevin Goetz (06:14):

... what it means is I'm this, and to this, and of this, and of this, and it all adds up to where you finally end up- Yes. ... really reaching kind of your Zenith. What was it as a young girl that ... Did you like movies and television? Oh yeah. Did you have an interest? What was your first movie you saw?

Ann Sarnoff (06:29):

Oh, boy. I'm embarrassed to say I think I saw an R-rated movie. No, was it really The Omen? I think I- Oh,

Kevin Goetz (06:37):

The Omen.

Ann Sarnoff (06:37):

I think so. No, that wasn't my first movie. I saw cartoons and things early on. You did? Yeah, I did, because you'd go to the mall.

Kevin Goetz (06:44):

We're not calling

Ann Sarnoff (06:44):

Child Protective Services. 

Kevin Goetz (06:45):

This is a safe room.

Ann Sarnoff (06:46):

I think the one I remember the most is the Omen because it was so-

Kevin Goetz (06:50):

Impactful.

Ann Sarnoff (06:51):

And, oh my gosh, the other one, now that I'm thinking about, looking for Mr. Goodbar.

Kevin Goetz (06:56):

Oh,

Ann Sarnoff (06:57):

Oh. Yeah.

Kevin Goetz (06:58):

That scared the life out of me.

Ann Sarnoff (06:59):

I think I was 15. I

Kevin Goetz (07:01):

Thought you were gonna say The Exorcist.

Ann Sarnoff (07:02):

Well, yes, but when I got to Georgetown.

Kevin Goetz (07:04):

Gotcha.

Ann Sarnoff (07:05):

So there's an annual event because it's obviously filmed at Georgetown and in the community. Yeah. So everybody on campus every year watches that movie. It's an annual event.

Kevin Goetz (07:15):

After you finished your strategy work at this company, this nine person company- Yes. ... you went to Harvard.

Ann Sarnoff (07:20):

Okay. So my life is sliding doors. One door is open

Kevin Goetz (07:23):

To go over that. Well, that's what I mean about the and. Yes, yes. You s- already I picked up on this. Yes. That this informed this, which informed this- Yes. ... which informed this. Unlike myself, which you've heard and we've talked about- Yeah. ... I knew the business I wanted to be in since I came out of the womb. That wasn't your case.

Ann Sarnoff (07:38):

God bless, but that wasn't me. I mean, look, I pretended I had a radio station and a newspaper when I was growing up. I played the piano. I sang. I did a lot of things in the creative space, but I didn't have anybody in my life who was doing those things- Sure. ... to know whether it was possible or not. So I dabbled. And then over time, different things happened that opened doors for me. So when I was at Kaiser Associates, the other four analysts were applying to get their MBA, so I thought, "Well, maybe I'll get my MBA." No guidance, no practical thinking because I had no money, so how was I gonna pay for that? Hmm. I don't know, but I got into good schools, so I did that because they were all going to do that. 

Kevin Goetz (08:21):

You went to Harvard as a business major. MBA,

Ann Sarnoff (08:23):

It's general management. Yeah. 

Kevin Goetz (08:25):

Oh, it is General management.

Ann Sarnoff (08:25):

Yeah. Okay. Yeah. So the two partners writing my recommendations to get into school, another sliding doors because small town girl, all of a sudden, okay, great. Georgetown's a great school, but then you get in this boutique firm, how do you get into Harvard Business School? Well, somebody thinks you're smart and writes a good reference for you.

Kevin Goetz (08:43):

I think in some way, coming from, and I don't want to be disparaging with this, but coming from the other side of the tracks, if you will- Yes, I was. ... helped you- Literally. ... enormously. Yeah. Right? 'Cause it wasn't a privilege. You came from a working-class Polish family- Yeah. ... and that was, in a way, a badge of honor. It was your blessing in some way.

Ann Sarnoff (09:01):

Now I see that. Back then, I thought-

Kevin Goetz (09:04):

I'm at a disadvantage.

Ann Sarnoff (09:05):

I never felt sorry for myself. I just worked all the time. I cut the lawn. I- I don't mean that. I did that dinner and-

Kevin Goetz (09:11):

I meant like that, not feeling sorry for yourself, but, like, you knew you had to put the work in. You weren't getting in as a nepo baby.

Ann Sarnoff (09:17):

Oh my gosh, no.

Kevin Goetz (09:18):

That’s what I mean. Right.

*Ann Sarnoff (09:19):

The resilience and the work ethic are two of the other things I just wanted to point out. So the sports, teamwork, competitiveness, and then having to work since I was a young kid, because both my parents worked, they were tired when they came home, so I tried to do all the housework and the lawn work, little Cinderella-ish, because my siblings were now out of the house. 11 years-

Kevin Goetz (09:39):

Yeah.

Ann Sarnoff (09:39):

11, 13, 14 years older. And so I just worked.

Kevin Goetz (09:43):

It's just what you did. Yeah. What about your kids today? What are the parallels or not?

Ann Sarnoff (09:48):

They're amazing kids. They grew up with more privilege. How many are there? There's no doubt, too. My daughter is a doctor at UCLA, and she is a specialist in the diseases of gut-brain interaction, so she's, like, microbiome and a gut specialist.

Kevin Goetz (10:03):

Where did she go to school?

Ann Sarnoff (10:04):

She went to Brown and then NYU, and then she got a residency at NYU med school and then residency at UCLA.

Kevin Goetz (10:10):

Oh, terrible underachiever. Okay, anyway.

Ann Sarnoff (10:12):

<laugh> Yeah. Yes. And then my son is- What about your son? ... at Amazon, uh, in the DSP, which is the demand side platform, which is Mega. They process ads across the ecosystem, basically.

Kevin Goetz (10:23):

Why does this not surprise me?

Ann Sarnoff (10:25):

Which part?

Kevin Goetz (10:26):

That they're successful. <laugh>

Ann Sarnoff (10:27):

Yeah. Well, in different ways, and super proud of both of them. He's been in content partnerships, content analytics. He was at Forbes Media previously, and helped basically sit between sales and product, and you're helping to guide the information, which of course AI is a big tool for now.

Kevin Goetz (10:45):

Absolutely. And you're married, yes?

Ann Sarnoff (10:47):

Yes. Husband Richard- What is Richard? KKR. And-

Kevin Goetz (10:51):

Ah. They all- KKR for listeners is a- 

Ann Sarnoff (10:53):

Your publisher.

Kevin Goetz (10:55):

Simon & Schuster.

Ann Sarnoff (10:56):

Yes.

Kevin Goetz (10:57):

They're one of the biggest private equity firms in the world. Yes. And Richard is the chair. Yes. Well, having known that, I'm gonna be especially kind to Ann today. <laugh> I'm fascinated because I understand this process. I've gone through it several times. So I wanna go back to you and one of your first jobs, I believe, was Dow Jones.

Ann Sarnoff (11:19):

Well, no. I went back into strategy consulting a bigger firm. 

Kevin Goetz (11:23):

Like a McKinsey-esque?

Ann Sarnoff (11:23):

It's ... Yeah, it's called Marakon and similar kind of practice, but more mid-size firm. And I had so much debt. It was like hand to mouth. And so I was there over five years and intellectually very interesting. I worked with a ton of smart people, but I knew that wasn't my calling long term. I knew I always wanted to get into the media business, but how was I gonna get there?

Kevin Goetz (11:47):

Yeah. I mean, having your own talk show or your own fantasy talk show, your own fantasy radio program, whatever as a kid. 

Ann Sarnoff (11:55):

I had it in me.

Kevin Goetz (11:55):

Exactly. It's now gonna begin to come to fruition in some way.

Ann Sarnoff (12:00):

Yeah. So how did I do it? I had my first child and I'm not sure how many of your listeners were ever in consulting, investment banking, et cetera. It's-

Kevin Goetz (12:09):

There's actually a lot of people that are-

Ann Sarnoff (12:10):

It's pretty gruel. ...

Kevin Goetz (12:11):

Is what I hear.

Ann Sarnoff (12:12):

To be in a professional service business because you're at the end of the web- 

Kevin Goetz (12:15):

Being a trusted advisor.

Ann Sarnoff (12:16):

And if it's the weekend and the client needs it by Monday, too bad. You're working whenever. So once I had Rachel, our daughter, it was time to make a change. I didn't feel passionate about any of the work I was doing.

Kevin Goetz (12:29):

Aha.

*Ann Sarnoff (12:30):

It made me smarter, like super smart. It was almost like a investment banking meets strategy consulting house. So I know how to value a company. I know how P&Ls work and balance sheets. And I got a lot of my business training at that job.

Kevin Goetz (12:42):

Practical business training.

Ann Sarnoff (12:43):

Practical business training because I would evaluate companies businesses and then help them develop strategies

Kevin Goetz (12:49):

But again, listeners, I want you to hear that the and, the and the and finding that, getting that knowledge was certainly not a jail sentence, but it wasn't what you were meant to do. But you were meant to have those skills. You were meant to have that knowledge to get you to where you were going.

Ann Sarnoff (13:03):

Right. Also, when I looked up, it was all male partners at the time. So as a woman who's been kind of trying to break through barriers, I thought, okay, is it worth for me to go to that next level there or should I find- Yes. ... something that I'm more passionate about where I am a bigger minority, if not majority?

Kevin Goetz (13:21):

Whether you want and believe it or not, you have been a trailblazer.

*Ann Sarnoff (13:25):

Thank you for saying that. And I'm standing, we were just talking about Sherry Lansing previously. I'm standing on Sherry's shoulders. I'm standing on a lot of women who were that first generation ... I mean, Sherry's not first, but she, but she was- She's ahead of me. And I watched every move she made.

Kevin Goetz (13:41):

Who else was an influence?

*Ann Sarnoff (13:43):

I don't know if I have a specific influence, but they talk about people like Kay Graham and women who really led ... There aren't that many, but they did sacrifice a lot to be able to kind of make it in the men's world. I was friendly with Shelly Lazarus who talked about being the only woman in the advertising agency. And then when they would go into meetings and guess who they're marketing to, they're marketing to women, and yet you have one woman on the team, and she said, "I would end up representing all women in my comments."

Kevin Goetz (14:11):

How did you navigate that in rough times?

Ann Sarnoff (14:14):

I thought to myself, keep going until you can get a seat at the table or at the top where you can make the change happen. Can you

Kevin Goetz (14:22):

Can you think of a story where you were the only female in a room?

Ann Sarnoff (14:25):

Oh, all the time.

Kevin Goetz (14:27):

... where you took a position and said, "Enough already."

Ann Sarnoff (14:29):

No, no, no, no. I didn't do that.

Kevin Goetz (14:31):

You never did that?

*Ann Sarnoff (14:32):

No. Mm-mm. Why would I do that? I want them to see me as an equal and I'm gonna more accentuate the things we have in common than the things we have different.

Kevin Goetz (14:42):

It just infuriates me, I guess, when people are deciding the fates of your female constituents, customers, whatever, and yet they're being made by a group of men in a room.

Ann Sarnoff (14:54):

Yeah.

Kevin Goetz (14:54):

And you just wanna say, "What the F." I mean-

Ann Sarnoff (14:58):

Well, look, how did boardrooms form? I'm in boardrooms now. How did those boardrooms form? It's the guys who are golfing together, calling their friends to come onto the board. You know, there's been a lot of change. It's different now because of a lot of change that has happened in movements. We learned when I was at MTV Networks, we had a very large DEI initiative because we realized that people of color were getting to a certain level, so we were doing a great job recruiting them, and then they weren't integrating, so they were leaving at a certain point. So I really commend Tom Freston who led all this.

Kevin Goetz (15:33):

At a time when it wasn't politically correct-

Ann Sarnoff (15:37):

Not at all. ...

Kevin Goetz (15:37):

Or mandated.

*Ann Sarnoff (15:39):

Not at all. We did it because it was, of course, the right thing to do, but apropos of the work you do, we weren't representing the audiences. Right. We're sitting around the, the executive table and we didn't look like the audience. So that was wrong because, especially in the media business, oftentimes people tend to program to themselves <laugh>. So if you're not diverse in who's making those decisions, then for sure you're gonna fail. You may be successful momentarily, but you will fail.

Kevin Goetz (16:07):

100%. I wanna go into this notion of demography, which I have a personal bugaboo about. Yeah. I think that the way in which we have looked at audiences, probably since the late '60s, and certainly when movie and television advertising became very widespread in the mid to late '70s with the 10-pole movie- mm-hmm. ... it was all based on Nielsen ratings compared to advertising rates- Mm.

(16:36):

... and share. And that worked at a time when there were three networks and then four, but then something called cable happened- Yes. ... which I'm gonna table for another minute. Okay. But I did sense and do sense that that has, for years, been a terrible disservice and an institutional racism and sexism and gender bias because I feel as though we should be looked at in clusters, in psychographic- Mm. ... identifiers that bring us together with like minds, attitudes, behaviors, and not because I'm a Hispanic woman in my late 40s as opposed to a Asian man in his 20s. Those two people may have a lot in common, but they're never gonna be shown the same advertising.

Ann Sarnoff (17:28):

Mm.

Kevin Goetz (17:29):

That's changing, of course, and has changed over the last 10 years.

Ann Sarnoff (17:32):

Yes.

Kevin Goetz (17:32):

But speak about that in the early days.

*Ann Sarnoff (17:34):

It was a blunt instrument. Look, the technology has allowed us to get more and more true to the audience. Early days, it was a broad brush that was swept over. Reach and frequency. And broadcast networks were programming apropos of that, kind of one size fits all. It was targeting the broadest of audiences, and the cable industry came around to niche broadcast to say, "Look, I know not everyone is the same. I know people have specific interests." So kids in particular, which is very near and dear to my heart, because of my job at Nickelodeon, kids were given Saturday morning cartoons. That was the extent of kids' programming back in the days. And Nickelodeon was founded on the fact that kids are around all day, every day. They deserve more than that. So Nickelodeon, over a set number of years, put those cartoons out of business. I don't know if you remember. Like, at a certain point, the broadcasters couldn't even compete anymore on Saturday morning because Nickelodeon got so big because we were true to the audience. We weren't just programming Drek of the same monster comes out at 22 minutes after the hour, every episode. We were trying to really understand kids, what motivated them, what their fears were, what their interests were, and that was Nickelodeon's special sauce. That really rose it to the top. And I went to school because Geri Laybourne taught us how to really understand audiences.

Kevin Goetz (18:59):

She was another one.

Ann Sarnoff (19:01):

A real- Standing on her shoulders.

Kevin Goetz (19:04):

 Yes. Of course. Geri Laybourne.

Ann Sarnoff (19:04):

Yeah. Absolutely should have mentioned that. She's a mentor of mine to this day.

Kevin Goetz (19:07):

Absolutely.

Ann Sarnoff (19:08):

Yes.

Kevin Goetz (19:09):

I wanna ask you about how you can create reach and frequency in today's market. Can you do it? Other than live sports,

Ann Sarnoff (19:15):

Let's say. YouTube-ish.

Kevin Goetz (19:17):

But are there enough watching that one thing?

Ann Sarnoff (19:19):

No, but if you amalgamate it.

Kevin Goetz (19:21):

Yeah.

Ann Sarnoff (19:21):

That’s the whole thing.

Kevin Goetz (19:22):

You have to amalgamate it.

Ann Sarnoff (19:23):

It's kind of like the- 

Kevin Goetz (19:24):

You think we're there yet in terms of-

Ann Sarnoff (19:24):

The new PBS in a way, you know?

Kevin Goetz (19:26):

Exactly.

Ann Sarnoff (19:27):

Yeah.

Kevin Goetz (19:27):

Which you have great experience running BBC.

Ann Sarnoff (19:30):

Yeah.

Kevin Goetz (19:31):

Oh, God, this should be three episodes.

Ann Sarnoff (19:33):

I didn't run the whole BBC, just to be clear. <laugh>

Kevin Goetz (19:36):

Which I, by the way, see as the precursor for the streaming model today, and I wanna talk about why I think that. Dive into that? Yeah. Okay. When we come back, we'll talk to Ann about the proliferation, the beginnings of cable, and how it unseated the broadcast model. We'll be back in a moment. Listeners, the Motion Picture and Television Fund is a nonprofit charitable organization that supports working and retired members of the entertainment community. This wonderfully run organization offers assistance for living and aging with dignity and purpose in the areas of health and social services, including temporary financial assistance, case management, and residential living, and has been a crucial lifeline to thousands during and beyond critical times that our industry continues to experience. To learn more, visit mptf.com. Please join me in helping others in our industry during times of need. There are so many ways to offer support and get involved. Thank you. We are back with the singular and very, very smart Ann Sarnoff. And again, I'm so thrilled to have you, and as I said, we can go on and on and talk. I'd like to speak about cable, the beginnings of cable- Mm. ... and how it really upset and disrupted the broadcast model and why it was necessary.

*Ann Sarnoff (21:09):

Cable started with the customer. That is the key. So it went to what people love. You love music, we're gonna give you a music video channel called MTV. You like comedy? We're gonna give you Comedy Central. Keep going. Sci-fi, just fill in the whole repertoire of cable channels that emerged because not only did it speak to people's interests, it then gave advertisers focused demographics. Imagine how much more efficient it is to market when you know somebody is a sci-fi fan or a comedy fan. The advertisers got a much more efficient route to market through cable.

Kevin Goetz (21:49):

And yet, the audiences were far smaller, but far more concentrated.

Ann Sarnoff (21:53):

More expensive because they were focused and targeted.

Kevin Goetz (21:56):

Would you call Nickelodeon the first real disruptor in the cable landscape?

Ann Sarnoff (22:00):

MTV? MTV technically came before Nickelodeon. But that whole group of networks emerged around the same time.

Kevin Goetz (22:07):

What did you learn about audiences at that time?

*Ann Sarnoff (22:11):

I came in as head of strategy and then I inherited the research group. There was a lot of change happening and the research group had kind of the normative route to do things was to have about 200 focus groups a year. And they were not just asking kids, "Do you like the show? Do you like that show?" They were really trying to understand what made kids tick and with the relationship with their parents, with their friends, with their teachers, and then they created shows that took that into account.

Kevin Goetz (22:44):

That white space and filled it.

*Ann Sarnoff (22:46):

And the difference with all due respect to Disney, but back then, Disney was programming more fairytales. There's a lot of princesses and a lot of things that were not true to what kids' lives were. So let me give you an example, Rugrats, which maybe some of your audience knows or maybe their kids know. I had somebody very senior in a toy company which will remain unnamed- <laugh> ... Say to me, "And those babies are ugly." And I said, "That's because you're looking at it through your adult lens. If you're a kid, you look at Tommy Pickles as a hero, Chucky's the scaredy cat, Angelica's a mean girl." That was like an ensemble cast for kids.

Kevin Goetz (23:27):

Absolutely. I remember working on the movie.

Ann Sarnoff (23:29):

And then the movie came out, which was a real big punch out for Nickelodeon.

Kevin Goetz (23:33):

Did you attend the focus groups yourself?

Ann Sarnoff (23:34):

Yeah, because I was now running research. 

Kevin Goetz (23:36):

I know, but come on.

Ann Sarnoff (23:37):

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Kevin Goetz (23:38):

A lot of people don’t. I love that you wanted to be in touch with your audience.

Ann Sarnoff (23:41):

Oh, we learned so much. I mean, I was in the first Blues Clues focus group. We had two to five year olds get out of their chairs and run up and touch, for those of you who know Blues Clues, Steve is the host and touch the screen thinking Steve was talking to them.

Kevin Goetz (23:54):

You know, that was true.

*Ann Sarnoff (23:55):

They called. We said, "Houston, we have a hit on our hands." Oh. "You need more episodes." And they ended up from the facility, they couldn't get the episodes out fast enough because it was computer generated. This is in the Malcolm Gladwell tipping point. So they played the same episode five days a week, which was unheard of in television. And guess what? Preschoolers like to watch the same thing every day. That's

Kevin Goetz (24:17):

That’s insane.

Ann Sarnoff (24:18):

And the ratings went up.

Kevin Goetz (24:19):

Whose idea was that?

Ann Sarnoff (24:20):

It was the combination of business necessity and the head of programming. I think.

Kevin Goetz (24:24):

You didn't have enough episodes to show and you didn’t want-

Ann Sarnoff (24:25):

It's like the same one. And ratings went up every day till Thursday. 

Kevin Goetz (24:29):

Think about how brilliant that is.

Ann Sarnoff (24:30):

And then the other thing about it, and this is really understanding kind of the texture of the show, there's three clues per show. Steve's talking to the kids across the screen, and every day the kids felt smarter because they were solving the clues. And if you have a kid, and you know, back in the day, I used to put the same DVD in every day when we <laugh>- We all did. When we wanted to have our dinner, you put the same DVD in and they love it. So kids like repetition. Again, if you're thinking like an adult, none of these things would have happened. Knowing your audience- Yeah. ... that's where the genius came from.

Kevin Goetz (25:04):

I think you tested it at ASI, which is what I ultimately bought.

Ann Sarnoff (25:08):

Oh, for sure.

Kevin Goetz (25:09):

About a dozen years ago.

Ann Sarnoff (25:10):

Yeah.

Kevin Goetz (25:11):

But I think you did, you're testing it, our facilities, our focus, with our dials.

Ann Sarnoff (25:15):

I remember.

Kevin Goetz (25:16):

Oh my god.

Ann Sarnoff (25:16):

Happy face, sad face.

Kevin Goetz (25:18):

Exactly.

Ann Sarnoff (25:18):

Yeah.

Kevin Goetz (25:19):

Ann Sarnoff. My God. Okay. I've been itching, waiting for this. I've got to ask you. So one day after a successful career at Dow Jones, the WNBA-

Ann Sarnoff (25:33):

Yeah. We could do a whole sports-

Kevin Goetz (25:35):

VH1, country music TV.

Ann Sarnoff (25:38):

Yep.

Kevin Goetz (25:38):

Nick. And then you get a call to run Warner Brothers. Yep. What was that like?

Ann Sarnoff (25:45):

Well, I had been called about LA jobs over the years and- 

Kevin Goetz (25:49):

You were still in New York at this time.

Ann Sarnoff (25:50):

Oh, very much.

Kevin Goetz (25:52):

So the kids grew up in New York.

Ann Sarnoff (25:53):

Yep. Husband, we're both working in the media industry, very much New York media.

Kevin Goetz (25:58):

Power couple.

Ann Sarnoff (25:59):

Mm. <laugh> Call it what you will. But I will say it is unusual to have two people, you know- In this

Kevin Goetz (26:05):

In this similar category.

Ann Sarnoff (26:06):

Yeah. Moving ahead- Sure. ... in, in their careers. And sometimes it's the woman moving ahead, sometimes it's the man we were trying to both move ahead. So when I would get a call about LA, I'd be like, "Oh, it'd have to be amazing for me to uproot our situation." But then, guess what? Our kids leave the house and the universe conspired because the month before I got the call about Warner, my daughter, if anybody knows the med school process of getting a residency on March 15th or whatever, you've applied to residencies and you get the envelope and the envelope tells you where you match. And that day, March 15th, 2019, she matched at UCLA. And she was ecstatic because that was her first choice. And a month later, I got a call about Warner Brothers.

Kevin Goetz (26:54):

You know, in Judaism, we have the word,

Ann Sarnoff (26:55):

Butsher- Bashart. I knew you were gonna say that.

Kevin Goetz (26:58):

You did?

Ann Sarnoff (26:58):

Yeah.

Kevin Goetz (26:59):

You're so sweet. I love you. So who calls you?

Ann Sarnoff (27:03):

I was a search firm and somebody that I knew for 25 years.

Kevin Goetz (27:07):

For the job.

Ann Sarnoff (27:07):

Yes. 

Kevin Goetz (27:08):

Who called you to tell you you got it?

Ann Sarnoff (27:09):

John Stankey.

Kevin Goetz (27:10):

He did?

Ann Sarnoff (27:11):

Yes.

Kevin Goetz (27:12):

What did he say?

Ann Sarnoff (27:13):

So John was running strategy for AT&T and helped guide the acquisition of what was called Time Warner and became Warner Media. That took a bit of time because of various issues with the administration, but that was finalized in 2018. And then in early 2019, he started looking for a new head of Warner Brothers. So I got a call a couple months later.

Kevin Goetz (27:40):

You were the first, really, of that corporate level, first female to run at that level- Yes. ... a major market. Very aware of that. <laugh> I know you are. I'm saying it really for the listeners.

*Ann Sarnoff (27:50):

There's a photo of all of the Warner Brothers, men, and then probably one of the most proud, iconic remembrances of my time there is my picture on that wall with all the men from 1923 on.

Kevin Goetz (28:05):

Just wow.

Ann Sarnoff (28:06):

Yeah.

Kevin Goetz (28:07):

So, uh, take us through getting the job and arriving at the studio for the first day.

Ann Sarnoff (28:13):

Well, I had a lot to learn because although I felt like I knew the industry very well, I hadn't run a studio and I needed to really figure out how things were done. I guess my training early days in, in consulting taught me how to understand the situation before you really start making any big decisions. And I knew there was a lot of smart people and that I needed to get in there and do whatever they say, the 90-day listening tour. It was less than that because things needed to happen more quickly. But it was- When did you arrive? I arrived in August, 2019. August of 19. Yep. And memorably, we were about to launch Joker, which was one of the biggest movies ever. Nobody knew it was gonna be as huge as it was. Nobody did. Nobody did. Although in Venice, which I did not go to Venice, but I remember hearing from Toby that it was very favorably received, and that would've been late August 2019, and then it won The Golden Lion. So very strong indicators that we had something going on there.

Kevin Goetz (29:14):

And it was so twisted. I remember there was that whole thing with the s- 

Ann Sarnoff (29:19):

The shooting in the theater, and so forth. Yes.

Kevin Goetz (29:19):

Yes

Ann Sarnoff (29:19):

It was hard. 

Kevin Goetz (29:20):

That had to be a lot to sort of digest-

Ann Sarnoff (29:22):

Yes. ...

Kevin Goetz (29:22):

As you're coming in trying to cut your teeth

Ann Sarnoff (29:24):

Yes. And we also wanted to make sure people were safe in the theaters- Absolutely. ... that they went to, and we were very sensitive to the content in the movie.

Kevin Goetz (29:32):

I did do a study at that time showing that at this time there was about a 20% decrease in movie going, and then it came up. It stabilized, but there was always this-

Ann Sarnoff (29:42):

Overall market, you say?

Kevin Goetz (29:43):

Yeah, overall market. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. But just that people were feeling that movie theaters were not necessarily the safe place that you could go to, but it also opened up a whole different rhythm area, school shootings. That was a byproduct of what Where this culture was heading. And it was a tough time to be, I imagine, ahead of a studio.

Ann Sarnoff (30:05):

It was an interesting first big thing to have to grapple with. 

Kevin Goetz (30:08):

First day when you walked on the Warner Brothers lot?

Ann Sarnoff (30:10):

Yeah, that was magical.

Kevin Goetz (30:12):

Whose office were you in?

Ann Sarnoff (30:13):

Jack Warner's.

Kevin Goetz (30:15):

No.

Ann Sarnoff (30:15):

Of course.

Kevin Goetz (30:16):

I'm sorry. I've got chills wanna see.

Ann Sarnoff (30:18):

Chicken skin here.

Kevin Goetz (30:18):

Jack Warner's office.

Ann Sarnoff (30:21):

Yeah.

Kevin Goetz (30:21):

Do you pinch yourself? 

Ann Sarnoff (30:23):

Sometimes.

Kevin Goetz (30:23):

Do you ever get giddy?

Ann Sarnoff (30:24):

Yeah. Well, I'm just beaming with pride of all of the history before me. And, you know, I think I've told you in my father-in-law's history with the company, he was one of the four guys with Steve Ross that started Warner Communications in the '60s. So my father-in-law bought DC Comics.

Kevin Goetz (30:44):

What was his name?

Ann Sarnoff (30:45):

William Sarnoff.

Kevin Goetz (30:46):

William Sarnoff. Okay.

*Ann Sarnoff (30:47):

And not knowing that this was in the Warner Archive, when I got there, in my office was a framed letter that the DC, you know, there's a DC vault <laugh> on the lot that is very highly protected and guarded. But they found all his notes and- Archival styles. ... business plans, all the stuff, including the letter where he approved Christopher Reeve as Superman for the Dick Donner movie, because he was the one who had the idea to make a Superman movie. He bought DC and then they didn't do anything in the movie world. There was a lot of TV series.

Kevin Goetz (31:22):

What happens after 90 days? You essentially, I'm calling it, I know it was before 90 days, but you had to make some changes. What were your biggest contributions or changes that you had to make within that first few months?

Ann Sarnoff (31:33):

Honestly, I didn't make that many changes in the first few months. It was more just organizing everybody. I had some new ways of doing business. For example, we started a weekly meeting with all of my direct reports, and that was a good new addition to the mix. And there was a bunch of dotted lines, and I tried to clean that up a little bit and said, "Look, you're responsible for this, you're responsible for that. " Because I didn't want the finger pointing in either direction, like-

Kevin Goetz (32:05):

Nothing gets done.

*Ann Sarnoff (32:05):

Right, exactly. So I think I cleaned up the way things were going to work. I instituted some new meetings and, and gave in the spirit of this is how we're gonna do things. And we're all in a team together. I remember there was a small meeting and we talked about some confidential things, and the next day I read about it in the Hollywood Reporter. Ooh. And I said, this was early on, like month two, and I said, "We can't do this. We have to be on the same team protecting each other. We can't be trading secrets."

Kevin Goetz (32:37):

I love that you just came right out and did that.

Ann Sarnoff (32:38):

Oh, we all got paid good money. We all need to focus our energy on making the company successful and put your personal agenda. Don't tuck it away. It's always gonna be there, but the company comes first.

Kevin Goetz (32:50):

I wanna mention that you had a significant impact on my life. Four months, let's say, into your tenure at Warner's, your head of research, Lewis Oberlander commissioned- Yes. ... me and ScreenEngine to conduct a very large study on the state of the industry. And I have to say, to this day, it's one of the most comprehensive surveys that I've ever conducted. It took three months to undertake. It was several thousand people in the sample. Mm-hmm. And it was to understand this new world of the streaming disruption- Yes. ... and what it really meant. Now, I wanna share with listeners that, in fact, this was before the pandemic. Mm-hmm. So we conducted the research like from October to December. Mm-hmm. And then it was in mid-January where I first really met you. I had met you peripherally in the TV world, I believe, but you wouldn't have remembered me.

(33:45):

We were introduced-

Ann Sarnoff (33:46):

We have a lot of people in common- So many people. ... from the research side of the business.

*Kevin Goetz (33:50):

Yeah. You only invited presidents and above to this meeting. There were only 11 people in the meeting, plus Lewisand maybe another member of his team, and that was it. And it was very telling because the research basically showed, remember, pre-pandemic that if Warner Brothers did not bifurcate or look at their studio, from the audience's perspective, meaning there was this cost convenience and choice contingent here, which was the streamer, and then there was the experiential, elevated movie called the Theatrical Experience- Mm. ... on this side. If you didn't understand and really speak to both, there might not be a Warner Brothers Pictures by 2030. And I remember so clearly that you were leaning in. You actually had your cell phone and you were taking pictures of slides. I said, "This woman's a winner." <laugh> No, I said it because-

Ann Sarnoff (34:48):

That means you forgot to bring the deck.

Kevin Goetz (34:49):

You were so jazzed by what you were hearing because, and I don't know if this is true, it seemed to confirm what you either knew-

Ann Sarnoff (34:57):

Yeah.

Kevin Goetz (34:58):

... it validated, or where you knew things were heading. And little did we know that two months later, we would be on lockdown, and it didn't cause what I was talking about, or what ScreenEngine discovered. What it did say is that it exacerbated the inevitable.

Ann Sarnoff (35:14):

Yes.

Kevin Goetz (35:15):

Talk about that, please.

Ann Sarnoff (35:16):

Wow. Well, that's a lot to unpack. I'm gonna go back to the John Landgraf peak TV.

Kevin Goetz (35:22):

Tell me where that term began. Probably mid-teens.

*Ann Sarnoff (35:25):

Mid-teens, yeah. Yeah. Just generally speaking. So can't believe you're gonna be making more next year, and then people made more TV. Then the streamers came on board, and everybody needed to fuel. Obviously, we're all trying to compete with Netflix. I launched Brit Box, which we've talked about, Disney+, HBO Max, everybody's coming online, and you need more content, or you think you need more content, at least on the supply side of things. Demand wie’ll get to. Then, COVID hits, and so guess what? We need more content, because people are in their homes watching. They're not going to theaters. So all of that led to an accumulation of content that I think what we've been suffering with since COVID started abating was just this escalation of the amount of production, which wasn't necessarily trued up to where the demand was. It was just circumstantially kind of supply side things that propelled the increases. So all those things you said are true, and then when you take a second dimension, which is the viewing experience in a home. So it used to be, when you wanted to see a two-hour something, you had to go to a theater because the most you could see in your home was a 30 or 60-minute episode. There was no ability to binge or stack. And once the narrative arcs grew to where the, you know, there's a 10-hour series that has a very compelling narrative arc, now I can stay in my own home and binge something and have a very satisfying experience and good quality because not only is the programming itself well-made, but the screen you're watching it on is better than ever. So I care deeply about the movie business. You've talked about theater worthy and I want to get to that and how you think about that, but something has to get you off the couch because now I can actually sit in the couch and watch a lot for a long period of time, whereas before I wasn't able to do that.

Kevin Goetz (37:29):

If you paid for it.

Ann Sarnoff (37:30):

Yes.

Kevin Goetz (37:31):

I wanna ask you though, there would be no end to peak TV based on what you're saying. Why was there a ceiling?

Ann Sarnoff (37:37):

Because ultimately, a lot of the shows weren't watched, and you know that.

Kevin Goetz (37:40):

Yeah, but tell me if you agree with what I'm about to say, which is, I think 2024 was a reckoning. We had to come clean. We had to say, "I think this is enough."

Ann Sarnoff (37:52):

Mm.

Kevin Goetz (37:52):

"I think 2025 was a stabilization year, and I think now we are stabilized." Would you agree with that?

Ann Sarnoff (38:00):

Well, the frame I've been using is we've got to hit bottom and then start to grow again. I hope so. 

Kevin Goetz (38:07):

We need more production. I believe it hit last year, and I think this year is just now the decisions, the green lights seem to be done more responsibly, more with a fiduciary responsibility, a thought of additional windows. I'm feeling that in a very big way, and I wanna know if you see that as well.

*Ann Sarnoff (38:27):

I do. And I think kind of the creative and the commercial are coming together more cohesively now. There's been a lot of disjointedness in those two areas. And I just hope that as we have reset and start to grow again, that the creativity is as broad as possible.

Kevin Goetz (38:47):

I think it'll only get better because let's say you green lit 50 projects, if you're a Netflix, I'm making this number out of thin air, but now you're only greenlighting, let's say, 30 projects. Right. Presumably those 20 that didn't just don't have the same either gravitas or the same quality level- Right. ... or the same talent.

Ann Sarnoff (39:08):

Right.

Kevin Goetz (39:08):

And so it just has to work itself out, I think.

Ann Sarnoff (39:11):

It has to. Especially when you did that study, and I remember our conversation in the room that day, we had talked about what movies were opening, because I remember distinctly when I joined, there were a lot of movies under 10 million.

Kevin Goetz (39:25):

You had such a challenging- Yeah. ... year, but you were dealing with movie after movie, and I think I did show you that there were nine movies. How much did you spend on PNA for all of those movies? Right, right, right, right. So all of the profit essentially that you made on, say, Joker, maybe it was either Wonder Woman and-

Ann Sarnoff (39:42):

Aqua Man the year before Conjuring.

Kevin Goetz (39:45):

All the profit on those, say, five or six movies that were theatrically quote unquote worthy- Right.

Ann Sarnoff (39:51):

...

Kevin Goetz (39:51):

Were eaten up by all of these-

Ann Sarnoff (39:52):

But that's always the case. It's a portfolio business.

Kevin Goetz (39:55):

I don't believe it anymore.

Ann Sarnoff (39:57):

Hmm.

Kevin Goetz (39:57):

That I don't believe anymore. I mean, I know as a studio head, I certainly don't wanna disagree because I've never been in that position, but what I'm saying is you almost have to hit every timeout, which is the theory in my book- Had a score in Hollywood, which is essentially saying that every movie, if made and marketed for the right price should make money. I don't think any movie should lose money if you know what your audience is beforehand. Some are gonna be bigger, swings than others.

Ann Sarnoff (40:22):

Right.

Kevin Goetz (40:23):

But essentially, you shouldn't miss and miss and miss. There's something wrong there.

Ann Sarnoff (40:27):

Right. I think we're saying the same thing different ways. Yeah. I'm not saying the portfolio necessitates you having losers. I think most businesses have some kind of a bell curve of a few things hit big that you- Sure. ... never saw coming, i.e. Barbie, Joker.

Kevin Goetz (40:42):

Well, I heard the most prophetic thing from Mike De Luca today, it was in that rap, beautiful art edition magazine where Pam and Mike were interviewed, and Mike said, "Everyone has flops. Not everyone has hits."

Ann Sarnoff (40:56):

Oh, yeah.

Kevin Goetz (40:58):

That’s kind of genius if you think it through. Right. And you're not gonna have hits every time out.

Ann Sarnoff (41:02):

No.

Kevin Goetz (41:02):

And I completely agree with that. What I'm saying is, of those nine movies that were released the prior year by Warners, probably none of them should have gone theatrical.

Ann Sarnoff (41:12):

Right. So I remember the three areas that we talked about, which have become a bit of a trope in the industry, superheroes, action, and horror. Those were the things that were opening and our own slate would have been indicative of that. So what I said two minutes ago about, I hope that hitting bottom or kind of resetting, we now grow and that there's a diversity of creativity beyond those three, because it's a sad world if we're focusing on three genres.

Kevin Goetz (41:40):

Oh, sad world. And I don't think any of us- Right. ... believe that can really be sustainable. I did Sonny Bunch's The Bulwark podcast. I was a guest. One of the things we talked about when he asked me, "Well, what do you see consumers want now?" One of the things we talked about was what I see them wanting in some weird way, and even crossing into the mainstream is singular experiences-

Ann Sarnoff (42:03):

Mm-hmm.

Kevin Goetz (42:04):

... something different, authenticity-

Ann Sarnoff (42:08):

Of course.

Kevin Goetz (42:08):

... and they don't need the same thing. They wanna see filmmakers who are being more daring, and that takes, let's take-

Ann Sarnoff (42:16):

Telling original stories.

Kevin Goetz (42:18):

It takes original stories, takes balls to do it, to green like that.

Ann Sarnoff (42:21):

You said that with Jason Blum about Get Out. Like, how do you market to ... What, it's a one of one and it doesn't quite fit anything that's previously known, and therefore even harder to market. So all of those dimensions make it harder.

Kevin Goetz (42:36):

Sinners was an example of that. It broke out. It crossed genres across audiences- Yes.

Ann Sarnoff (42:42):

... and

Kevin Goetz (42:43):

So exciting to see that. Same with one battle after another. Same with even Marty Supreme. Mm-hmm. You know, you think about Marty Supreme, if you had done pre-green light testing on it, it'd probably been pretty average, but the moment you put Timothy Shalomy in it, it sort of elevates it. So that's something else to be cognizant of. There's other ways to elevate original material.

Ann Sarnoff (43:02):

Yes.

Kevin Goetz (43:02):

If nothing else is an insurance policy, but also just because it creates what I believe theatrical worthiness means-

Ann Sarnoff (43:09):

Right. ...

Kevin Goetz (43:09):

Which is, I call it elevated content, elevated material. Elevated doesn't mean snooty. It doesn't mean sophisticated. It doesn't even mean necessarily great. It means that there's some thing about it that elevates you to leave your home.

Ann Sarnoff (43:30):

And it's unexpected.

Kevin Goetz (43:31):

Yeah.

Ann Sarnoff (43:32):

All of the above. Something unexpected.

Kevin Goetz (43:33):

Sexy, different. Something turned on its ear.

Ann Sarnoff (43:37):

Right.

Kevin Goetz (43:37):

And my God, you said it brilliantly before. People don't wanna leave their home, don't have to leave their home for so many things and for so many reasons.

Ann Sarnoff (43:47):

When social media started to become probably the biggest marketing vehicle in the business, I wonder how you changed the way you test to incorporate that because it used to be a fingernail biting Thursday night into Sunday results. Now, it's like Thursday night, you know, but you know the results- Absolutely. ... social media has taken off one way or the other. 

Kevin Goetz (44:12):

I couldn't agree with you more. If you don't start a campaign, before you start shooting a frame of film, you're at a disadvantage.

Ann Sarnoff (44:18):

Right.

Kevin Goetz (44:18):

You know, I sit on this board of a company called SGG, which is an aggregator of all these micro influencers in sports. Mm-hmm. So their sports sites run between 25,000 to 100,000 constituents led by an influencer.

Ann Sarnoff (44:33):

Right.

Kevin Goetz (44:33):

And this SGG, the company, is essentially the agent of all of these 2,500 different micro-influencers. Now, as you said before, added together comes to almost 90 million people. So you can create authenticity and an investment early on by getting people involved. It's what Angel Studios does with their angel network, isn’t it?

Ann Sarnoff (44:57):

Mm-hmm.

Kevin Goetz (44:57):

I think that's a necessary part of marketing today. I think you have to create community, create evangelism with a core group of people that are gonna go and become your grassroots effort.

Ann Sarnoff (45:11):

Yeah. It's tricky. It's a lot of efficiency of information that is hard to control, even with premeditated, long-running marketing, you know.

Kevin Goetz (45:21):

Where are we five years from now, Ann? Let's start with movies.

*Ann Sarnoff (45:24):

I believe movies will find its new way of growing. I think theaters will definitely expand beyond movies. We're already seeing that.

Kevin Goetz (45:35):

You sit on the board of Regal.

Ann Sarnoff (45:36):

Regal, yes.

Kevin Goetz (45:37):

Tell us about the things that you think about as a board.

Ann Sarnoff (45:39):

Well, the things I think about, and again, back to our meeting in 2019, you pointed out that the attendance was flat or down since 2001, I believe you told us. Ticket prices were going on.

Kevin Goetz (45:50):

Correct.

Ann Sarnoff (45:51):

Yeah. 

Kevin Goetz (45:51):

But it wasn't a growing business.

Ann Sarnoff (45:53):

Right. So therefore, there's been overcapacity in the industry for a long time. So the onus on the theater owners is to find ways to fill the seats.

Kevin Goetz (46:05):

Such wasted space.

Ann Sarnoff (46:07):

All week long, not just Thursday. So what are you doing? Friday, Saturday night.

Kevin Goetz (46:09):

What are you doing to that end?

Ann Sarnoff (46:10):

Eduardo Acuna and his team are out there beating the pavement in this town and in a lot of different arenas trying to find ways to partner with organizations that-

Kevin Goetz (46:21):

Like Fathom?

Ann Sarnoff (46:22):

Well, Fathom is owned by the top threes.

Kevin Goetz (46:24):

I know. I threw that one to you. 

Ann Sarnoff (46:24):

Yeah. Yeah. 

Kevin Goetz (46:26):

But that's kind of a brilliant way to use Saturday morning.

Ann Sarnoff (46:28):

Of course. So Fathom's great. That's a three-way partnership. They've been doing this for years. We're looking to expand, like, yes and Fathom Plus maybe live sports, maybe gaming, maybe comedy, maybe the creator economy, maybe first episodes of big news series, especially franchise series, series where people can dress up and celebrate the thing they love and eventize it in theaters, last episodes like you saw with Stranger Things-

Kevin Goetz (46:58):

Wasn't that something?

Ann Sarnoff (46:58):

Amazing.

Kevin Goetz (46:59):

... concerts?

*Ann Sarnoff (47:00):

Yeah. I think that the notion is, especially coming out of COVID, people want to watch things together. Not everything, but they wanna watch things that they can kind of enjoy together and celebrate together. Anytime you leave your home and go to a friend's house or you go to a bar, i.e. The Super Bowl, the Oscars, et cetera, why wouldn't you go to a movie theater and have the movie theaters treat it more like a party instead of the sit quietly? I think there should be, like, a quiet car and a noisy car version in the movies because if you're in Wicked and you wanna sing at the top of your lungs, you should be able to do that. And if somebody else wants a different experience, there's eight more theaters right next door. Right. You can go to one of those. Look at what the customer wants to do in the theater and stop imposing a frame on it that is constraining or not of the times. Young people wanna be on their phones. Okay, so let's create something on the screen that allows them to use their phones. I don't know what that is yet. I don't know what the form function is, but you gotta believe having a bunch of people doing fun things together and we own this precious real estate, then that seems like something you can figure out.

Kevin Goetz (48:03):

More people will go to the movies, I just wanna say to our listeners now, but are going to see far, far fewer movies, because to your point, they still want to go out to a shared experience, but it has to be experiential. It has to have some kind of reason.

Ann Sarnoff (48:21):

Surprise and delight.

Kevin Goetz (48:22):

Oh, I love that. And you can surprise and delight in many different ways. Like you said, through sports, through gaming, through concerts, through, of course, movies, and there's many things in between that we haven't even come up with to your point.

*Ann Sarnoff (48:35):

Well, listen, I ran a studio. Did I know my customers? No. Do the theaters know the customers? Absolutely. Hi, Kevin. Welcome back. Thank you for coming to Regal Sherman Oaks. This is your 10th visit this month. I'm gonna give you a special something. Also, it's a personal relationship. Or you could do a private parties, hosting, et cetera. They call it the third space. You have your home, your work, and people want to gather in third spaces. The theaters are a perfect third space. And again, in real life, post- COVID, to me, there's demand that the only limit is our imagination of what we can do in those theaters.

Kevin Goetz (49:10):

For those who say that the theaters need to do a better job to get people out of their home, you agree with that? Or do you think it's more about programming?

Ann Sarnoff (49:19):

It's the whole thing. It's the screen, it's the seat, it's the, "Can I reserve my ticket?"

Kevin Goetz (49:24):

What do you think about exhibitors distributing their own movies? That's tough, huh?

Ann Sarnoff (49:29):

I think that there are more things looking to get into theaters than maybe the studio system right now is supporting. So there might be ways where producers find a route to market. That's all to be worked out. Yeah. But there's a lot of great things out there that need audiences. So I'll leave that one for the next podcast.

Kevin Goetz (49:51):

Well, I will say, Ann, this has been such a delight, and we got really into the weeds in a way that I think is gonna intrigue our listeners incredibly. Is there anything else that you wanna add before we break?

Ann Sarnoff (50:02):

Well, I'm just so happy to be here, and I love having a kindred spirit in the customer first, audience first realm of this business. It's very rare, and I feel like I was trained on it, and, you know, maybe my role on Regal is some kind of new version of what that means. Like, what do audiences want when they go to a theater? 

Kevin Goetz (50:24):

100%. Well, if it was up to me, you'd be back running a studio or something akin to that because I find you inspirational and also like I am an advocate for the audience. So God bless.

Ann Sarnoff (50:36):

Thanks, Kevin.

Kevin Goetz (50:37):

Thank you. To our listeners, I hope you enjoyed this conversation. For more insights into filmmaking, audience testing, and the business of Hollywood, I invite you to check out my books, Audienceology, and How to Score in Hollywood. You can also follow me on my social media. Next time on Don't Kill the Messenger, I'll welcome Academy Award-winning producer, Mark Johnson. Until then, I'm Kevin Goetz, and to you, our listeners, I appreciate you being part of the movie-making process. Your opinions matter.

Host: Kevin Goetz
Guest: Ann Sarnoff
Producer: Kari Campano
Writers: Kevin Goetz, Darlene Hayman, and Kari Campano
Audio Engineer: Gary Forbes (DG Entertainment)