Podcast: Don't Kill the Messenger with Movie Research Expert Kevin Goetz
Guest: Mark Johnson

Interview Transcript:

Announcer (00:03):

From script to screen, every film is brought to life by visionary creatives and executives, all sharing one mission to captivate the audience. Hosted by award-winning movie strategist Kevin Goetz, our podcast, Don't Kill the Messenger, offers a filmmaking masterclass through intimate conversations with Hollywood's most influential voices. And now, your host, Kevin Goetz.

Kevin Goetz (00:29):

Some producers specialize in one lane. My guest today apparently decided that would be boring and wants a new challenge each time out. Drama, comedy, romance, crime, prestige television. Somehow, this producer has been instrumental in all of it, helping others bring their stories to screens of all sizes. He won an Academy Award for Rain Man. He won an Emmy Award and helped shape one of the most influential television series of all time in Breaking Bad. His list of accolades is long, and yet he's built a reputation for something far rarer in this business - decency, kindness, and deep respect for the people with whom he works. He's also proof that great producers don't chase formulas. They strive for authenticity and emotional truth. That man is Mark Johnson, and I am thrilled to have him here. Mark, welcome to the show.

Mark Johnson (01:31):

Oh my gosh, what an introduction. First of all, thanks for having me. Somebody once asked me when I was looking for money for my small little production company. They complained. They said, "You know, the problem is you don't really stand for anything." And I said, "What are you talking about? " He said, "Well, you know, there's certain producers who make action movies and other ones who make comedies and, and you're all over the place and you're really hard to sell that way."

Kevin Goetz (01:56):

Not untrue though.

Mark Johnson (01:58):

No, he was actually quite correct. 

Kevin Goetz (02:02):

Joel Silver has a movie he makes.

Mark Johnson (02:03):

That's exactly right.

Kevin Goetz (02:04):

I think you'd be more like, in a way, Imagine, you know, Brian-

Mark Johnson (02:08):

Right.

Kevin Goetz (02:09):

... or like Mark Gordon, because both had great success in movies and in television.

*Mark Johnson (02:14):

That's exactly right. And I don't wanna repeat myself. I don't wanna do the same movie twice. So why do a comedy like Galaxy Quest? Well, let's go from there and do something really stark and dramatic and completely different. Or the notebook, people keep saying, "Why don't you keep doing the notebook?" You know, the romances and I'm just thinking, "I really enjoyed doing the Notebook. I'm very proud of it, but I'm not sure I wanna do it again."

Kevin Goetz (02:39):

You know, I retread that territory, but Mark, you and I met when now. Let's go back in time. It must've been-

Mark Johnson (02:47):

Probably was Good Morning Vietnam.

Kevin Goetz (02:49):

I think so.

*Mark Johnson (02:50):

Which was an incredibly important movie to me in terms of audience and surveys and quite frankly, the studies that you did and the screenings because first of all, up till then with Barry Levinson, I had done smaller, very character-driven shows-

Kevin Goetz (03:08):

You were Partnered with Barry.

Mark Johnson (03:09):

... in a company

Kevin Goetz (03:09):

Called-

Mark Johnson (03:10):

Eventually called Baltimore Pictures. And Barry and I did 12 or 13 movies together starting with Diner and then we did everything from Good Morning Vietnam to Rain Man to Bugsy to, uh-

Kevin Goetz (03:24):

The Natural.

*Mark Johnson (03:24):

The Natural, Young Sherlock Holmes, Tin Men, a whole bunch of, I think, really good- Avalon. ... movies. Avalon, exactly right. Many of those movies Barry wrote himself. He started as a writer, and I think that was really instrumental for me to understand how a writer approaches his or her movies. And Barry was always driven by character, so I always looked at the movies that we did and said, "Well, we don't do bank robberies or huge explosions, but we do characters in, in some sort of quiet or at sometimes not so quiet crisis."

Kevin Goetz (04:00):

How did you and Barry get involved in the first place? And then we're gonna go back because I don't wanna-

Mark Johnson (04:04):

Yeah. ...

Kevin Goetz (04:04):

Lose

Mark Johnson (04:05):

Focus

Kevin Goetz (04:05):

On Good Morning Vietnam.

*Mark Johnson (04:07):

Barry Levinson and I met on this set of high anxiety, a Mel Brooks movie. And I was in the production team, and Barry was one of four writers, including Mel Brooks. And at the time, Mel was acting and directing, and he had the three other writers on the set the whole time, so that they could comment on everything from Mel's performance to how it was playing, whatever. And so Barry and I had a lot of time on that set to get to know each other. 

Kevin Goetz (04:37):

He had four writers just sort of hanging around?

Mark Johnson (04:39):

Yeah.

Kevin Goetz (04:40):

Like a television show.

Mark Johnson (04:41):

That's exactly right. And keep in mind also, we didn't have a playback then, so that they needed to watch his performance and comment on it. And it was, uh, don't do that anymore. 

Kevin Goetz (04:54):

What was it like working with Mel?

Mark Johnson (04:55):

Oh my God. There were two people I think are most responsible for my career or certainly encouraging me in my career path, Billy Friedkin and Mel Brooks. And Mel was just a delight and believed in me for the craziest reasons. And I used to stop and introduce me to people and say, "Mark Johnson is an American boy." <laugh> And, and, uh- As opposed to-

Kevin Goetz (05:19):

A nice Jewish boy.

Mark Johnson (05:21):

Exactly right. 

Kevin Goetz (05:21):

From the Lower East Side.

Mark Johnson (05:23):

That's right. <laugh> He used to do that with Stuart Cornfeld. He said, "Stewart, come over here. Here's Mark Johnson. He's an American boy."

Kevin Goetz (05:31):

Oh, I thought, and Stuart was not. <laugh> May he rest in peace by way. 

Mark Johnson (05:34):

No, love those both. Yes, absolutely. So Barry was a very successful writer, had been nominated for an Oscar for And Justice for All.

Kevin Goetz (05:43):

That was prior to Diner?

Mark Johnson (05:45):

Yes. And he got the opportunity to direct his first movie, Diner, and he asked me to produce it. And he had never directed before and I'd never produced before. So we learned by the- 

Kevin Goetz (05:57):

Was it an agent that connected you? You just found each other on set?

Mark Johnson (06:00):

Well, you know, what happens is I was working for the producer, Jerry Weintraub.

Kevin Goetz (06:06):

I did not know that. So that was prior to High Anxiety?

Mark Johnson (06:10):

No, after High Anxiety. Okay. So Barry and I knew each other. I had an opportunity to go produce movies for Jerry's company.

Kevin Goetz (06:19):

Which was amazing,

Mark Johnson (06:20):

Right? Yeah.

Kevin Goetz (06:21):

'Cause he was a very formidable producer.

Mark Johnson (06:24):

Oh my gosh. At the time, Jerry Weintraub and I met, he was a music manager.

Kevin Goetz (06:29):

Music manager.

Mark Johnson (06:30):

Yes, a music manager and came from promotion. He had promoted concerts with Helbin Spreslin, but he was a gigantic manager when we met. At the time, he was managing the 3Ds, John Denver, Neil Diamond, and Bob Dylan.

Kevin Goetz (06:44):

That's just the Ds. What happens when you get to the E's? 

Mark Johnson (06:47):

That's right. Exactly. <laugh> I don't know how many of those.

Kevin Goetz (06:50):

So what'd you learn from him?

*Mark Johnson (06:51):

A certain amount of tenacity. And I always admired the classic Hollywood producer. That's not who I am, but I always admired those people, the bigger than life people, all of the men, certainly in terms of the early history. And with Bluff and a certain amount of probably lying, they would sort of get their way and force some of these movies, bring them into being by just a dint of their personality. 

Kevin Goetz (07:20):

So funny, I would cast you as probably a Harvard professor. <laugh> Or somebody that was in the holdovers.

Mark Johnson (07:26):

Yeah, exactly. <laugh>

Kevin Goetz (07:27):

But he left for the holidays. That's right. 

Mark Johnson (07:30):

That's right. <laugh>

Kevin Goetz (07:30):

But I see you like in that role or even of a business executive, something that would be more a traditional in a way, because you have a preppy kind of look, you've always had that demeanor. Yeah. But there is a fire under Mark Johnson that I've always loved and I've always gotten because you're the kind of guy that you remember everything. So you'll follow up on everything. And that to me is one of your many, many gifts.

Mark Johnson (08:00):

Oh, well, thank you. I hadn't even thought about that in terms of following up and things. I try to ... Every now and then somebody will come to me or say, "You have the reputation for being one of the nicest guys in Hollywood." And it drives me crazy because I just think, what good is being nice? Who wants to be the nice guy? It would be the SOB who somehow gets, uh, gets to know- 

Kevin Goetz (08:20):

Well, would you rather be an SOB?

Mark Johnson (08:21):

I can't. I don't have it in me.

Kevin Goetz (08:22):

Well, also, listeners, don't confuse niceness with weakness ever with Mark Johnson. Now, have you ever really just lost your shit?

Mark Johnson (08:32):

Oh, sure.

Kevin Goetz (08:33):

Like, where do you lose your shit?

Mark Johnson (08:35):

Once a year, I lose my shit.

Kevin Goetz (08:36):

Is it usually on set?

Mark Johnson (08:38):

No, it's not on set. And it's usually with one person. And unfortunately, then I undercut it because I then apologize for the next week and a half.

Kevin Goetz (08:48):

Give me an example of what was the last time you can remember you just lost it.

Mark Johnson (08:52):

I was on the phone with somebody who was asking for something inane and I just, maybe it was, you know, I had a bad piece of fish at lunch or something, but I just- 

Kevin Goetz (09:04):

But it was an inane request.

Mark Johnson (09:05):

Yes. And I just exploded.

Kevin Goetz (09:07):

Because they were being relentless?

Mark Johnson (09:09):

Yes. And ultimately wasting my time.

Kevin Goetz (09:12):

Got it. What did you consider the biggest ... That's one of my bugaboos, wasting my time. Right. I have so limited and precious time. That's exactly right. You, I mean, have two, not two newborns. You have a newborn and you have a four-year-old.

Mark Johnson (09:26):

Right.

Kevin Goetz (09:27):

And your second family.

Mark Johnson (09:28):

Right.

Kevin Goetz (09:29):

And two older children.

Mark Johnson (09:30):

That's right.

Kevin Goetz (09:31):

And so you need to have energy for them and any additional bandwidth you have you want, I'm sure, give to them.

Mark Johnson (09:40):

There are a lot of petty conversations and requests and, and I'll do them gladly up to a point. It's like anything else. We all have our boiling point. But I have found as busy as we are both in television and movies right now, and of course in my personal life, I just don't have time anymore. Yeah. And it's unfortunate because there are a lot of people I've come in contact with in the past couple of years I'd like to have friendships with, but I don't know how.

Kevin Goetz (10:09):

What does that mean?

Mark Johnson (10:10):

Friendships like anything else, like any relationship, it's gotta be worked on. You've got to give it time. Takes time,

Kevin Goetz (10:15):

You bet.

Mark Johnson (10:16):

And- 

Kevin Goetz (10:16):

Can't be manufactured.

Mark Johnson (10:17):

No. And it was a very early lesson. The second movie I produced was The Natural, and I fell in love with everybody, the cast, the crew, and when it wrapped, I was destroyed.

Kevin Goetz (10:28):

Because the word on the street is you love family. You love putting together families, and that seems to be a leitmotif in your life.

*Mark Johnson (10:37):

If there is a recurring theme in my movies, or even television for that matter, it's about family. It's about the family you create, not necessarily the one you're born in, but where you get your strength and where you get your protection. And I think that's true in terms of what we put together. I would be devastated if somebody talked about one of my productions said, "Oh, I hear was a really unhappy set. It was chaos and nobody was taken care of or was dangerous or whatever." That would devastate me because it's very important that everybody be treated well and feel secure, and quite frankly, walk away thinking it's one of the best experiences of his or her life. 

Kevin Goetz (11:19):

Where does that come from?

Mark Johnson (11:20):

Probably I came from a broken family. When I was young, my mother took my brother, sister, and me, got on a boat in New York and got off at Gibraltar, and then we lived in Spain for eight years.

Kevin Goetz (11:32):

Wait a minute. Hold on. You were born in ...

Mark Johnson (11:35):

Chevy Chase, Maryland.

Kevin Goetz (11:36):

Okay. And at what age did mom do this?

Mark Johnson (11:38):

About seven or eight, I then went to Europe and I went through high school in Madrid.

Kevin Goetz (11:43):

Why did she move to Spain?

Mark Johnson (11:45):

It was very brave at that time for a single American woman, any woman, with three young kids to just move to Europe and not speaking the language. She didn't know if she was going to go to Spain or Italy, but we fell in love or she fell in love with in Spain.

Kevin Goetz (12:00):

Where were you in the pecking order?

Mark Johnson (12:01):

I was the oldest.

Kevin Goetz (12:02):

So there's a certain responsibility when you're the oldest too.

Mark Johnson (12:05):

Right.

Kevin Goetz (12:05):

Caring for the young, young ones. 

Mark Johnson (12:06):

That's exactly right.

Kevin Goetz (12:08):

You close to your siblings today?

Mark Johnson (12:10):

Yes, I am. We don't see each other enough. I'm much closer to them than I was when I in my 20s and 30s.

Kevin Goetz (12:18):

So let's go back to Good Morning Vietnam, because I got us into another tangent, which is an interesting one, but I do wanna hear about how you viewed that as a seminal movie for you, why it was so important for you and Barry at the time. And you also mentioned that research had a very important part in that. Can you unpack that for us?

Mark Johnson (12:40):

Yes. I think the only time that I was aware of research was in our very first movie, Diner, which we tested in New York. And then once, actually, on the West Coast. I didn't know what to make of it. It was my first time. I think it was fairly crudely done. It was not done by the great Kevin Goetz, I can say that. I don't think we ever tested the natural.

Kevin Goetz (13:03):

Well, that was a little before my time.

Mark Johnson (13:05):

Yes.

Kevin Goetz (13:06):

Right? But that was in early 80s?

Mark Johnson (13:08):

Yes. 84.

Kevin Goetz (13:09):

And I didn't come into the business till 87.

*Mark Johnson (13:12):

Right. So Good Morning Vietnam is the first one we did together. And it was an out and out comedy. Barry Levinson and I learned so much from the testing because it helped us understand what the audience was reacting to and what they were enjoying. And there was a character played by JT Walsh, who the audience loved to hate. And we realized they were so happy when he was on the screen because he always got his comeuppance. And we thought, wait a minute, there's a scene with JT we didn't have in the movie we cut out because we didn't need and put it back in. And lo and behold, our numbers went up. Up till then, I lived in fear of testing because I was assuming we'd always wouldn't test well and the studio would then relegate us to some second tier position. And with Good Morning Vietnam and a comedy, it was so helpful. And it was so helpful, not just a, obviously it's very helpful in a comedy, you can sit in a theater and you can hear the laughs and how they're responding, but to actually see it on paper and to see they liked this moment and they really liked this character and said, "Why did they like that character?" And start to understand it. It was instrumental in the filmmaking process.

Kevin Goetz (14:30):

What'd you make change-wise that you can remember based on the audience feedback?

Mark Johnson (14:34):

Well, adding a scene with J.T. Walsh that we had taken out because we didn't think we needed it.

Kevin Goetz (14:40):

I guess what I'm asking is, by adding that scene back with J.T. Walsh, what did it add that you didn't know was needed?

Mark Johnson (14:49):

Right. We took it out for dramatic reasons. We didn't need it. It all made sense. But then we discovered that the audience loved this character. They loved to hate this character.

Kevin Goetz (15:01):

So it just reinforced the stakes?

Mark Johnson (15:03):

Reinforced that and it gave us a huge laugh. Probably a couple of laughs, which in the comedy you want to chase.

Kevin Goetz (15:12):

You called Good Morning Vietnam a comedy. I call it a serial comedy.

Mark Johnson (15:17):

Right.

Kevin Goetz (15:17):

Wouldn't you?

Mark Johnson (15:18):

At the time, Vietnam was not something you made fun of.

Kevin Goetz (15:22):

Good point.

Mark Johnson (15:23):

And the other thing about Good Morning Vietnam was Robin Williams up till then had done a couple of movies, but it was not a movie star. But Good Morning Vietnam made him a movie star- 

Kevin Goetz (15:36):

Had he done Dead Poet Society?

Mark Johnson (15:37):

He had done Garp. Yeah. He had done a couple of smaller movies.

Kevin Goetz (15:41):

And Forest Whitaker.

Mark Johnson (15:42):

Right. Forest Whitaker. Exactly. And then we had Bruno Kirby and Robert Wall and a whole host of people. 

Kevin Goetz (15:50):

And Disney really got behind it, didn't they?

Mark Johnson (15:52):

Yes. And in large part, because testing. Testing is important for all movies in different ways.

Kevin Goetz (15:59):

You've always had a great respect for testing.

Mark Johnson (16:01):

Yes

Kevin Goetz (16:01):

Which I really appreciate.

*Mark Johnson (16:02):

A great fear of testing too. Because let's face it, more of our movies have tested not as well as we would have liked than have. It's a whole nature of very hard to make something that works for an audience.

Kevin Goetz (16:17):

And you also said that Good Morning Vietnam was the first movie that really was successful.

*Mark Johnson (16:21):

Oh, it was a huge success. So we sold Robin Williams the way you wanted to see him, because he had those moments when he's behind the microphone, and he's allowed to just riff as a way Robin Williams does, and an audience just said, "Oh, we wanted to see that. "

Kevin Goetz (16:37):

What was it like working with Robin?

Mark Johnson (16:39):

Fantastic. I'd never met him before. He was one of the kindest people I've been with. And it was interesting because we shot it in Thailand with a crew of a number of Thai crew members and a number of British crew members. And Robin's humor is, certainly at the time, was uniquely American. And so sometimes he would do bits that were so funny, and the Thai and British crew would just sit there. "Okay, let's go on to the next. "Robin was devastated because he just assumed he wasn't being funny, because he's used to everybody in front of him listening to him, roar and laughter. And so Robin would tell a joke about Lyndon Johnson's daughters who were famous for being homely, and the British crew would just sit there and say," Okay, fine. " <laugh> Robin, he literally would call me sometime 2:00, 3:00 in the morning and say," We gotta reshoot today's work.

(17:37):

It didn't work. I'll pay for it. Said, No, no, what are you talking about? Of course, you know how well it worked. Barry Levinson and I, two Americans, would be having to stuff something in our mouths to keep from ruining the take out of laughter.

Kevin Goetz (17:51):

Now, Barry would just have to let him go, I imagine.

Mark Johnson (17:55):

Yeah.

Kevin Goetz (17:55):

Let him do his thing.

Mark Johnson (17:56):

Well, there were certain dramatic moments that he had to hit. He had to make it clear that this happened or he acknowledged this or did something over here just to move the story forward. But beyond that or around it, Rock wouldn't do anything he wanted.

Kevin Goetz (18:12):

Now, you and Barry stayed partners for several years after that.

Mark Johnson (18:16):

We were partners for 12 or 13 movies.

Kevin Goetz (18:20):

And Rain man was probably the pinnacle of that relationship, that partnership. How did that come to be?

*Mark Johnson (18:29):

It's interesting because I won an Academy Award for Rain Man, but in many ways it's one of the movies that I had least to do in terms of putting together because, you know, Rain Man was together as a movie project with Dustin Hoffman and Tom Cruise before Barry and I even got to it.

Kevin Goetz (18:48):

I did not know that. In fact, before Tom Cruise was on, because Paula Wagner and Rick Nicita were guests on the show, Paul had told me how she sort of came up with the idea to suggest Tom Cruise for it because it was written for a far older guy.

Mark Johnson (19:02):

Right. Also, everybody kept on saying, that's sort of a stretch that Tom Cruise and Dustin Hoffman are brothers.

Kevin Goetz (19:09):

But not really in some way.

Mark Johnson (19:10):

No, but you see the movie- 

Kevin Goetz (19:11):

I'm looking at it right here behind. Behind me. Yeah. And you can sort of see the nose. There's something about-

Mark Johnson (19:18):

I think they're perfectly together. Yeah. But anyhow, Martin Brest was the first director of Rain Man, then Sydney Pollock, then Steven Spielberg, and fourth, Barry Levinson.

Kevin Goetz (19:32):

You mean they were all developing it?

Mark Johnson (19:34):

Yes. All attached to direct it.

Kevin Goetz (19:36):

So Barry got the job, you came along with Barry on that one. And then you ended up being on set every day.

Mark Johnson (19:42):

Oh yeah.

Kevin Goetz (19:43):

It just wasn't something you, yourself developed.

Mark Johnson (19:46):

Right.

Kevin Goetz (19:47):

But Barry also received the Academy Award for Best Director.

Mark Johnson (19:50):

Best Director, yes, that's right.

Kevin Goetz (19:52):

What was it like that night getting that award?

Mark Johnson (19:54):

Oh my God. Well, I was sitting next to Robin Williams. He claims that I was so tense that my fingers went through the armrest of my chair. <laugh>

Kevin Goetz (20:04):

And the winner is Mark Johnson, Rain Man. What did you do?

Mark Johnson (20:08):

The little boy in me just went wild.

Kevin Goetz (20:11):

You were with your wife at the time, Leslie.

Mark Johnson (20:13):

Right.

Kevin Goetz (20:14):

What was that like? Did you turn around and kiss her? Did you remember your speech?,

Mark Johnson (20:19):

I kind of kissed a lot of people. <laugh> My speech was, he was a terrible thing. You realize how important it is. I went out of my way to thank everybody I could possibly thank, and I forgot Jerry Molen, who was our line producer, our executive producer, and plays a significant role in the movie as a doctor. And I forgot it.

Kevin Goetz (20:42):

I hear that from so many people.

Mark Johnson (20:45):

And I heard after the fact how hurt he was. And I ju- I was terrible because he ... Jerry Molen was the nicest man and really good at his job and wonderful as an actor. 

Kevin Goetz (20:58):

I'm sure you probably won additional awards and were able to thank him at additional times.

Mark Johnson (21:03):

I hope I did, and he follow up things, but yes. And I certainly apologize, but that's one of the ... I'm sure what happens when this is done and I listen to it and I say, "How could I not have mentioned so- and-so or whatever?" 

Kevin Goetz (21:17):

Did you think that you were gonna win?

Mark Johnson (21:19):

Well, that's the problem. Yes. Everybody told me we were gonna win. To the degree that if we hadn't won, we would have been- Be devastated. ... a gigantic failure. We would have done something so wrong.

Kevin Goetz (21:35):

And Dustin won.

Mark Johnson (21:36):

Yes. Dustin- 

Kevin Goetz (21:37):

And Tom was nominated, wasn't he?

Mark Johnson (21:39):

No. No, he wasn't. And he should have been.

Kevin Goetz (21:41):

Oh my God. Tom Cruise is the lure of that movie in some way, isn't he?

*Mark Johnson (21:45):

He's extraordinary in that movie. He really doesn't have that moment, that big character, dramatic moment that people remember. Oh, it's a movie now. He does this really subtle change to this character, and he starts the movie one way and becomes the other, and he has this humanity and this generosity that he never had before. Tom is subtly brilliant in the movie.

Kevin Goetz (22:08):

How did your life change after the Academy Award, or did it?

Mark Johnson (22:11):

It did, and it didn't. People say, "Oh yeah, Mark Johnson won an Academy Award, or you won an Academy Award." And that's wonderful, but it is very much like, "All right, what are you doing now? What's your next movie?" Well, not, we're not crazy about that one.

Kevin Goetz (22:25):

It sure got you into every room.

*Mark Johnson (22:26):

Harvey Weinstein made a big point whenever he would see me for years and years, he'd say, "I remember watching you win the Academy Award. You won the producer for the best movie of the year, and then wait an hour and 15 minutes for your car to come out of the parking lot." So it's sort of at some point, it's true. I'm sure in the morning I took the trash out.

Kevin Goetz (22:51):

That's great. When we come back, we're going to continue our discussion with Mark Johnson. We'll be back in a moment. Listeners, the Motion Picture and Television Fund is a nonprofit charitable organization that supports working and retired members of the entertainment community. This wonderfully run organization offers assistance for living and aging with dignity and purpose in the areas of health and social services, including temporary financial assistance, case management, and residential living, and has been a crucial lifeline to thousands during and beyond critical times that our industry continues to experience. To learn more, visit mptf.com. Please join me in helping others in our industry during times of need. There are so many ways to offer support and get involved. Thank you. We're back with Mark Johnson. Mark, we just talked about Rain Man. We've talked about Good Morning Vietnam. I have to talk about a couple of your other movies because they're so seminal.

(24:07):

The Notebook is one that comes to mind. How did that come to be?

Mark Johnson (24:11):

I had a production company. I can't remember what I'd done, but we got the book in galley form of the Notebook, Nicholas Sparks, who was not Nicholas Sparks.

Kevin Goetz (24:21):

I was just gonna ask, was, wasn't that his breakout?

*Mark Johnson (24:24):

Yes. So he was not a bestselling author and really had no profile, but we got this in galley form and I loved the idea of it. I loved the idea that somebody could be, for a variety of reasons, this is for very severe, health reasons, could basically be so in love with somebody that he wooed her anew every single day. So he would woo this woman he was married to and had this love affair with, but she no longer remembered, and he would come back. And it was so important to him to have those moments so that he might dance with her for a minute or five minutes and reclaim their love affair. And then the idea of how this all started, how we start with two young, healthy lovers who combat whatever it is they need to, to become these two older people. And it obviously resonated to a large audience.

Kevin Goetz (25:22):

Oh, I mean, I can't watch the movie for personal reasons because Gena Rowlands was one of our best friends

Mark Johnson (25:28):

And- That's right.

Kevin Goetz (25:29):

I miss her so deeply. I can't even express to you. But Nick Cassavetes did an extraordinary job directing it.

Mark Johnson (25:37):

Nick Cassavetes, whose mother is Gena Rowlands, cast his mother in the movie and so, probably the only time I will ever hear a director say, "And action mom." <laugh>

Kevin Goetz (25:49):

Oh, genius. Son, can I talk to you off- That's right <laugh>. I wanna go over ... And she would never. Yeah. She was so deferential because she was such a pro and- Exactly, really was. ... and just the best. I'd like to ask you what one of your favorite movies is other than those three. What's special to you?

*Mark Johnson (26:08):

I think the closest I'll ever get to a perfect movie, and it's not perfect, is Alfonso Cuarón's A Little Princess. It is the confluence of some incredibly gifted craftspeople all working together. It's a singular piece, and I give Alfonso all the credit. He was able to orchestrate this movie that is in every way, a manifestation of what he wanted, of his aesthetic, but it was done through Emmanuel Lubeski, Chivo, the cameraman, Bo Welch, the production designer, Judianna Mikovsky, the costume designer. It's quite remarkable, and that's a movie that I have trouble watching because it's so emotional for me, and it's, one hand so simple, but expertly made, and it's an amazing story, because it, too, scored incredibly well when we tested it. This is at Warner Brothers, and it was a very small movie. We made it, I think for Made at Warner Brothers for $10 million. At one point, we were gonna go to India and shoot the India sequences there, and we all got our very painful vaccinations, and then we found out that we didn't have enough money to go to India. <laugh> So we invented India, imagestically rich India on the Warner Brothers backlot, which worked even better than real India, whatever. So it's very important to me. First of all, we developed it at the same time that I had adopted my daughter, and I saw it as a gift to her. That's so beautiful. It was a movie that was released quickly. It was not a big, high profile Warner Brothers movie, and it did not do well, despite the fact it was the best or the second best reviewed movie of the year. And Warner Brothers, Rob Friedman, who was the head of marketing at the time, was really great about going back, and they re-released it.

Kevin Goetz (28:09):

That's almost never done.

Mark Johnson (28:10):

No, I know. The second try. We never did the business that we should do. It's a tough one, and I learned something about audiences, and especially about boys and girls, because boys, unfortunately, were such Blockheads, boys that there's a movie called A Little Princess, and it's very hard for a boy to go to a playground, tell another boy, "Hey, I gotta go see that movie called A Little Princess." And yet, when we tested it with boys and girls, boys loved it. 

Kevin Goetz (28:39):

Yeah, they just wouldn't admit it.

Mark Johnson (28:39):

Exactly right.

Kevin Goetz (28:41):

Yeah. So tell me about the transition that you decided to make into television, because you are pretty agnostic in the genres in which you work.

Mark Johnson (28:53):

Right.

Kevin Goetz (28:53):

But television was a new frontier for you. What made you say, "I'd like to now get into maybe producing a series."

Mark Johnson (29:05):

Before Breaking Bad, I executive produced a couple of other shows that were actually at- 

Kevin Goetz (29:10):

Which ones were they?

Mark Johnson (29:11):

One called LA Doctors that was at CBS, and The Guardian with Simon Baker, that ran for two or three seasons on CBS. But to be totally honest, it's unfair, and please forgive me, whoever hired me or gave me the go ahead, I didn't give it my all. Quite frankly, I think I looked down on television at the time, which I apologized for because I never should have.

Kevin Goetz (29:35):

Depended on a different showrunner?

Mark Johnson (29:38):

Right. And, well, and, and it was-

Kevin Goetz (29:40):

I mean, were you technically a showrunner?

Mark Johnson (29:40):

No, I wasn't technically ... I was an executive producer, and I did LA Doctors with one of my good friends, John Lee Hancock, who was a feature writer and director, and neither of us quite knew what we were doing in terms of television. And I think if we were to go back with what we We now know we could have made the show much more successful.

Kevin Goetz (30:04):

And how did Breaking Bag come to be?

*Mark Johnson (30:06):

In 1988, I was part of a Virginia Film Festival screenwriting jury. Ah. And I read a script by a guy named Vince Gilligan. <laugh> And I said, "This is extraordinary."

Kevin Goetz (30:18):

Like a feature script?

Mark Johnson (30:20):

Yes. I sought him out and we became fast friends and I developed a number of scripts with him and ended up making a three-picture deal for him as a writer.

Kevin Goetz (30:35):

Where? Through Gran via, your company?

Mark Johnson (30:37):

At Tri-Star, through our company. And we made a first movie script of his was directed by a guy named Glenn Gordon Caron that we did at Tri-Star called Wilder Napalm. And we also did another one with my good friend, Dean Parisot, who ended up directing Galaxy Quest later on. We did Home Fries.

Kevin Goetz (30:57):

What did you notice about Vince's writing that was so particular or singular?

*Mark Johnson (31:01):

Oh, I'm glad you asked that. He is the most original writer I've ever come across.

Kevin Goetz (31:07):

In what respect?

Mark Johnson (31:08):

By the way, his new show, Plurabis, which I'm not involved in, is the most original thing I've seen on TV in years. And it's not just originality for the sake of originality. You just sit there with your mouth open and say, "Oh my God, I can't believe I'm, you know, where did this come from?" And it's so captivating and engaging and it's just a remarkable writer.

Kevin Goetz (31:29):

Was it a sense of story, character?

*Mark Johnson (31:31):

I think characters and the setup, the characters. In fact, I would introduce Vince to people in Hollywood, including Stephen Spielberg. And everybody loved his writing and loved the sort of originality of it, but at that time, they sort of felt that he would write himself into a corner. So that he had trouble ending his movies. And I think that's probably true for both Home Fries and Wild Napalm. And I think this is sort of a simplistic way to look at it, but I, Vince went on staff at the X-Files and learned very much the structure of how a screenplay or how a teleplay worked and what you had to do at particular points in order to lead to a satisfying-

Kevin Goetz (32:26):

And he seemed to like it.

*Mark Johnson (32:27):

Yes. But Vince is just one of my closest friends and somebody who I'm just in awe of so really proud of him. And I said to somebody the other day, "And I'm proud of myself for recognizing this genius so early on.”

Kevin Goetz (32:41):

It's really fun when you do that. I mean-

Mark Johnson (32:43):

Yes.

Kevin Goetz (32:44):

Has there been other talents where you feel like if I didn't give them a chance, they would not have perhaps gotten to where they were, at least as fast as they did.

Mark Johnson (32:55):

Perhaps, but I think Vince at a WGA awards event called me, you know, it singled me out as the person who discovered it. I didn't discover Vince Gilligan. Vince Gilligan existed.

Kevin Goetz (33:08):

You brought him to Hollywood's attention.

Mark Johnson (33:10):

I started his first thing, but Vince was just such a force of creative energy that he was going to have.

Kevin Goetz (33:15):

We would like to think that if they're that talented, they're gonna find their way, but not everyone does. We both know a lot of people who are so gifted and you're like, "How could that person never have gotten the break?" 

Mark Johnson (33:28):

I know.

Kevin Goetz (33:28):

'Cause we really are only one project away from success, an actor, one role away from stardom potentially, right? A producer- Yeah. ... one movie away from- Right. ... Good Morning Vietnam, from ... You had done several movies before. By the way, the natural came before that. It wasn't a hit.

Mark Johnson (33:47):

It was not a gigantic hit. It was a hit. And I'm not to this day sure why. Maybe it was baseball at a time when baseball wasn't a particularly sexy topic. I don't know, you know, the, the- The

Kevin Goetz (34:00):

The music in the natural is used in every temp score-

Mark Johnson (34:03):

I know.

Kevin Goetz (34:04):

... on every movie that I've worked on since.

Mark Johnson (34:07):

I'll bet that's true.

Kevin Goetz (34:09):

What was it like to get Brian Cranston or how did you hire Brian because he is so associated with Breaking Bad?

Mark Johnson (34:19):

Brian was actually Vince's idea because he had written an episode, um, The X-Files, I believe it was the X-Files or maybe the Lone Gunman. Anyhow, he had worked with Brian. 

Kevin Goetz (34:31):

I thought you were gonna say Malcolm in the middle.

*Mark Johnson (34:33):

<laugh> Yeah. <laugh> By the way, there were a number of people, nobody put up a great barrier to Brian, but everybody said, "Wasn't, isn't he the guy from Malcolm in the middle, or you sure you want the guy from Malcolm in the middle?" And Vince knew exactly what Brian could do. You can't imagine Breaking Bad without Brian Cranston.

Kevin Goetz (34:51):

Correct. That's why I brought that up.

*Mark Johnson (34:54):

So many people talk to me who are starting in the business say, "Well, I hear it's really cutthroat and there's some terrible people and people are gonna take advantage of you and use you. " Overwhelmingly, I've been surrounded by great people, really nice people who mean well and take their craft seriously. 

Kevin Goetz (35:11):

But that's a reflection of you, Mark. It's not false praise. When I say that, I mean, if you were the asshole that you said you could have been or even envied in some way or looked up to in some way, you would have attracted a different kind of person in your life, I imagine.

Mark Johnson (35:27):

That sounds right. I think that gives me, <laugh> gives me too much credit. And you're right. There are certain people, there are certain directors who I actually admire I just won't work with because I think the experience would be too difficult. 

Kevin Goetz (35:42):

Especially when you get to a certain age, you're like, "You know what? " Right. New family, life's too short, et cetera. Yeah. What was the hardest project that you ever had to push up a hill to get made? The one when you could see it, plain as day, I am not gonna say no, but for the fact that you were the person doing that lifting, it would not have happened.

Mark Johnson (36:06):

I have a number of movies on my shelf that they are going to get made. I know they're gonna get made. I've had those for years. Donnie Brasco is one of them, and we started off trying to get Donnie Brasco made and Al Pacino was going to play the Johnny Depp part.

Kevin Goetz (36:22):

The Little Princess.

Mark Johnson (36:24):

Yes.

Kevin Goetz (36:24):

And Donny Brasco.

Mark Johnson (36:25):

Right.

Kevin Goetz (36:26):

I'm just saying, Mark Johnson.

Mark Johnson (36:27):

Oh, I see. I see.

Kevin Goetz (36:29):

I mean, that is just-

Mark Johnson (36:30):

They have a lot in common, huh?

Kevin Goetz (36:31):

Yeah. Mark Johnson. <laugh> Because as I said earlier in the introduction, you are so diversified in your tastes.

*Mark Johnson (36:42):

But it stems from the fact it's me as a moviegoer. I see everything. I couldn't be happier at a screening of Mission Impossible. I couldn't be happier at a performance of Sorry, Baby. So it depends. We wake up in the morning and say, "Do we want eggs? We want cereal or shall I get pancakes?" I have gotten satisfaction and so much enjoyment from every kind of movie. So that's how I wanna make them too. I don't wanna just keep singing, uh, the same thing.

Kevin Goetz (37:09):

You know, again, I, I just keep going back to the fact that you have such good taste and you really have a respect for the audience. And, you know, as an audience advocate myself in, how to score in Hollywood, by the way, um, thank you for attending a recent get-together that was-

*Mark Johnson (37:26):

For your audience, I went to an event at Sherry Lansing's house for Kevin in recognition of his book. It was a real celebration and some of the biggest names in Hollywood were there and people who all of us were talking, all of us have strong ties to you and to what you've done for us and how you've helped us. And Kevin, speak of my modesty, Kevin has no idea, or maybe he does quietly, how important he has been to so many of us in terms of how we presented and how we approached our movies.

Kevin Goetz (38:00):

Oh, that's lovely, lovely.

Mark Johnson (38:01):

This was an event. How to score in Hollywood is essential, and it'll tell you things about some of your favorite movies and how they got there, and quite frankly, how you happened to see them.

Kevin Goetz (38:13):

Well, that's beyond kind, and I am grateful for you saying that. And it meant so much to have me and so many of my friends who have worked together for decades now. I think what we just said is we're 39 years in, you and I, which is when Good Morning Vietnam-

Mark Johnson (38:30):

Is that right?

Kevin Goetz (38:31):

Isn't that crazy? Oh my God. Came to be. What do you want people to know about you, Mark, that they don't know? And when I ask that question, you've done tons of interviews over the years, and I'd love to think that you're gonna walk out of this one going, "Oh, I think I've never really said that in an interview." What do we need to know about Mark Johnson? What's a, a secret or, or something that would be very telling to our audience?

*Mark Johnson (38:57):

I think I enjoy producing. I enjoy movie making as much today as I did when I started. I wake up every day, say, "Okay, today we've got it. Today we're gonna move this forward. Today we're gonna get this movie made." I know we've fallen behind every single day of the shooting this past month, but today we're gonna get ahead. All because I love movies. Tom Cruise said the other day at the honorary Oscars, "I don't make movies. Basically, I am movies, movies are my life.” And I feel that. There's a wonderful book by Walker Percy called The Movie Goer, and it basically is the most satisfying, the glorious moments in my life have often come through the movies and enjoying moments of movies. So as a producer, I'm still the little kid who can't believe ... By the way, every time I go on the studio a lot and the security guard waves me through, I can't believe they're letting me in. So I love what I'm doing. I can't imagine ... If somebody came to me, I shouldn't say this and said, "Mark, we're gonna have to pay you half of what we've been paying you. " I'd still do it because that's not why I do it. The other thing is that I think it's really important for all producers to know that it's not our movie. Ideally, in terms of a movie, we're helping a director make her or his film in the best possible way. And the moment we think that it's my movie and I gotta do this and gotta do that, I think we're missing the point because it's the director, it's the showrunner, it's the writer, it belongs to everybody.

Kevin Goetz (40:31):

But that vision of the filmmaker that is the director is of paramount importance to you.

Mark Johnson (40:37):

Right.

Kevin Goetz (40:37):

Who are you excited by today, a new voice that you'd like to maybe work with in film and in television?

Mark Johnson (40:45):

I look at Sorry, baby, I look at Marty Supreme, I look at a number of movies and just say, "Oh boy, I'd love to work with that director, with that writer, with that team."

Kevin Goetz (40:55):

Paul Thomas Anderson.

Mark Johnson (40:56):

Oh my gosh, of course.

Kevin Goetz (40:58):

What a talent, huh?

Mark Johnson (40:59):

Extraordinary. 

Kevin Goetz (41:00):

How about Chloe Zhao? Did you see Hamnet?

Mark Johnson (41:03):

Absolutely.

Kevin Goetz (41:04):

I was so blown away by it and that performance by Jessie Buckley and Paul Mescal and that kid, unbelievable.

Mark Johnson (41:11):

I know.

Kevin Goetz (41:12):

But she got that out of them. You can feel it in the awards that are happening right now. You can feel the love of that community, that family-

Mark Johnson (41:21):

Right.

Kevin Goetz (41:21):

... that the producer built.

*Mark Johnson (41:23):

But when I saw the writer, I said, "Who is this person? My God, this is an extraordinary director." I came to her somewhat late and, and just ... Anyhow, we're weighed down by so much negative writing journalism about our business and about moving forward and, and yet it's balanced by the fact that there are so many really imaginative, gifted directors voices. So somehow they're gonna get out there. It's not like there's a dearth of talent.

Kevin Goetz (41:54):

That's not going to change. What's gonna change are the platforms, the windows.

Mark Johnson (41:57):

Yes.

Kevin Goetz (41:58):

But not the expression of the art form.

Mark Johnson (42:02):

Right.

Kevin Goetz (42:02):

Thank God, right?

Mark Johnson (42:04):

That's exactly right.

Kevin Goetz (42:05):

On that note, I have to say, man, it's been a pleasure visiting with you. I just wanna thank you for entrusting me with so many of your wonderful creative babies over the years. Every time we see each other, I feel like I'm seeing a true old friend, even though we don't pal around with each other because we're both so busy with our careers, you mean so much to me, and I really thank you very much for being here.

*Mark Johnson (42:30):

Kevin, it's so lovely to hear you say that. It's my pleasure to be here. And I have to say this, I will remember this moment not that long ago, three years ago, we tested the Holdovers and Alexander Payne cautioned me beforehand, you know, my movies, and he has some wonderful movies, always test in the 50s. It's just the way they test, so don't be disappointed. And then we did our first test and Kevin came in and we tested somewhere in the mid 80s and he announced it in such a way, such a reassuring way that both Alexander and I looked at each other in just a different way that we've ever connected. I associate, Kevin, you with so many of those moments. I'm sure there's a couple of ones that I say, "No, Kevin, go, go back out the door and come back with something else." <laugh>

Kevin Goetz (43:16):

There, there were, but you always listened.

Mark Johnson (43:18):

That's right.

Kevin Goetz (43:19):

Made the changes that we got to better numbers the next time. Mark, again, congratulations on your newborn baby and, of course, on your lovely partner, Gina Welch and your four-year-old. It's a marvelous thing.

Mark Johnson (43:33):

Thank you. Kevin, it's been a delight.

Kevin Goetz (43:36):

Thank you. To our listeners, I hope you enjoy this conversation. For more insights into filmmaking, audience testing, and the business of Hollywood, I invite you to check out my books, Audienceology, and How to Score in Hollywood at Amazon, or through my website at KevinGoetz360.com. You can also follow me on my social media. Next time on Don't Kill the Messenger, I'll welcome producer and former vice chairman of Warner Brothers and chairman of Columbia Pictures, Mark Canton. Until then, I'm Kevin Goetz, and to you, our listeners, I appreciate you being part of the movie-making process. Your opinions matter.

Host: Kevin Goetz
Guest: Mark Johnson
Producer: Kari Campano
Writers: Kevin Goetz, Darlene Hayman, and Kari Campano
Audio Engineer: Gary Forbes (DG Entertainment)