Podcast: Don't Kill the Messenger with Movie Research Expert Kevin Goetz
Guest: Sid Ganis

Interview Transcript:

Announcer (00:03):

From script to screen, every film is brought to life by visionary creatives and executives, all sharing one mission to captivate the audience. Hosted by award-winning movie strategist Kevin Goetz, our podcast, Don't Kill the Messenger, offers a filmmaking masterclass through intimate conversations with Hollywood's most influential voices. And now, your host, Kevin Goetz.

Kevin Goetz (00:29):

The people who remain successful through multiple periods of Hollywood aren't just talented, they're adaptable. My guest today is someone who successfully navigated nearly every major era of the modern movie business, from publicity and marketing to running major studios to producing hit films independently, to leading the Academy of Motion Picture Arts and Sciences for four consecutive terms. Sid Ganis has remained at the center of Hollywood for more than five decades. He helped shape the marketing campaigns for The Empire Strikes Back and Raiders of the Lost Ark at Lucasfilm. He oversaw films like Fatal Attraction, Ghost, and Forrest Gump during his studio executive years, and later reinvented himself again as a successful independent producer. Along the way, he earned a reputation as one of the most trusted, respected, and quite frankly, well-liked people in the business. Sid, you're coming to us from Hawaii today. Thank you so much for joining me.

Sid Ganis (01:34):

Kevin, I love the introduction. All the accolades, I totally appreciate. And, you know, I say to that who me. But you know what I love more? I'm here in Hawaii because my grandson is graduating high school.

Kevin Goetz (01:50):

A big mazel tough on that, and I am thrilled for you. Thank you. Sid, I usually jump in with where you're from, et cetera, which I plan to do, because we're both Brooklyn boys. But I wanted to go for a more provocative question right off the bat, which is tell the listeners something that we don't know about Sid Ganis.

*Sid Ganis (02:09):

What you don't know about me, it's probably the same thing that many of the other folks that you talk to might say or think. With me, it's, well, yeah, but what am I going to do tomorrow? How am I going to make a dent in this world that we live in, general world that we live in, not just the show business world. And now at my eyes in the morning, you don't know that I wake up and say, "Oh, I'm up. How nice."

Kevin Goetz (02:36):

<laugh> What is the thing you're most proud of in terms of life first and the business second?

Sid Ganis (02:45):

The life stuff really has to do. I just talked to you about my grandson graduating tomorrow. It is this family of mine. It's a good one. It's not bad, you know? We've been kicking around now for many years and thanks to Nancy who's standing not far from me here and my kids and now my grandkids and extended family and my heritage. I'll talk to you about that if you'd like.

Kevin Goetz (03:14):

I do wanna hear about that. You're talking about your Greek and Jewish heritage?

Sid Ganis (03:18):

Yes.

Kevin Goetz (03:19):

I had two Greeks at my house for dinner last week. Jim Gianopoulos was over with his wife Anne, and Christina Connelius was over as well. And Nia Vardalos was going to come, but she had to go to London to do something with her play and Rita and Tom were out of town. But I didn't even know you were Greek. I didn't know you had that heritage. By the way, I would have flown you in to join that. <laugh> Tell us about that. That's a very interesting and unexpected part of your life that I didn't know that heritage.

Sid Ganis (03:49):

I'm a Greek Jew. My grandparents, 1906, ran away from Turkish oppression in Greece and found their way to the Lower East Side of New York City, not unlike many of the immigrants around and raised a family. Six kids, my father and five sibs, and eventually us guys.

Kevin Goetz (04:17):

You know, Sid, I was at a wedding a few weeks ago with Alex Yaminigian was there, and so we spent some time together and we got to talking. He had written a book for his family, not for public consumption. And he talks about in the book, he doesn't even know I read this yet, but his family came also to flee Turkish persecution from the Armenian side and fled to Greece as a result of that. Isn't that interesting that you both share that in terms of your grandparents?

Sid Ganis (04:46):

Yes. Is he Jewish?

Kevin Goetz (04:48):

Armenian.

Sid Ganis (04:50):

We're Jewish. That had nothing to do with the Turks nailing us because there were after all the Greeks in that part of Greece especially.

Kevin Goetz (04:58):

But you were Jewish in Turkey and then Greece? Like they were- Totally. ... both mom and dad?

Sid Ganis (05:03):

No, my father. So my grandparents. And we're not Sephardic and we're not Ashkenazi Jews. We're a thing called Romaniote Jews. Have you ever heard of that? Most people have not.

Kevin Goetz (05:19):

Are those from Italy? Because those were the first Jews, the Italian Jews.

Sid Ganis (05:24):

Yes, from Italy. But Jews that wandered into Greece one day and stayed there from Palestine, you know?

Kevin Goetz (05:31):

Sure.

Sid Ganis (05:31):

And stayed there. And there we were, Romaniotes, and you're exactly right. We are the oldest Jewish sect.

Kevin Goetz (05:39):

And when did you guys go to Brooklyn?

Sid Ganis (05:41):

From the Lower East Side, Grandma and Grandpa hit the road across the bridge and wound up in Flatbush and Bensonhurst. And the whole family was there.

Kevin Goetz (05:50):

That's exactly where my family's from. My father's from Flatbush, my mother's from Bensonhurst. God, Jewish geography. Sid, tell me how a young boy from Brooklyn gets to work for George Lucas.

Sid Ganis (06:01):

It's a simple story. Here it is. Kid from Brooklyn, Madison High School, fine, happy, lower middle class family.

Kevin Goetz (06:10):

Good student?

Sid Ganis (06:12):

Nah. Average student. Social, you know, with my palace the way we all were. You know, you were the same in Bensonhurst of Flatbush.

Kevin Goetz (06:21):

Did you love the movies?

Sid Ganis (06:22):

Yes.

Kevin Goetz (06:23):

So you liked the movies, you were an okay student, you had a nice life.

Sid Ganis (06:28):

A good, not wanting anything life. I had 25 cents in my pocket and that did get me in to single theaters, no multiplexes or no plexes or anything, but, you know, on after the other. Children's price during the week, 20 plus.

Kevin Goetz (06:43):

Did they give plates to children and stuff like that? No.

Sid Ganis (06:46):

No plates.

Kevin Goetz (06:47):

You know what I'm talking about, right?

Sid Ganis (06:49):

Of course I do.

Kevin Goetz (06:50):

Listeners, they used to give you like swag, I guess, would be the only way to say it. There were also trading stamps, if I recall, mostly from the grocery store, but then also I think the movie theaters did it.

Sid Ganis (07:01):

Listen to you. You, you're into nostalgia.

Kevin Goetz (07:06):

I know, but that's, you know, getting to the heart of the person I think is really important. So what was the first movie that you saw at one of those single screen theaters?

*Sid Ganis (07:15):

That's funny that you asked because there was a reason I was thinking about it the other day. The first movie I saw on my own, that is to say, taking my 25 cents and walking four blocks to a theater called the Nostrand on Nostrand Avenue and seeing the movie Gunga Din. Then it was a newish movie, turned out to be a classic movie. That was the first time. And then as I grew up, my friends and I would go every single Saturday just like we hear all the time about kids, boys, girls, going to the movies with their pals on Saturday afternoon and just enjoying it and having fun and having popcorn and raising hell.

Kevin Goetz (07:56):

Did you go to school after high school or did you go right into the workforce? 

*Sid Ganis (07:59):

Well, I did. I went to Brooklyn College for a short period of time, Kevin, for a year and then the beginning of another semester, which is when I said, "This isn't for me. " And nothing's happening here. And by now, I was like 18 years old and saying, "Oh my God, what am I gona do with my life?" So I went home the day I quit Brooklyn College, Dad was a cab driver and he worked nights, so he was working. I came home and said, "Mom, I just quit school." And my mother looked at me and said, "Okay, Sidney, what are you gonna do now?" And it hadn't entered my mind that there was something I had to do now. <laugh> Are you

Kevin Goetz (08:42):

Kidding, really?

Sid Ganis (08:44):

Yeah. Which part?

Kevin Goetz (08:46):

That you left college without having a plan at all.

*Sid Ganis (08:50):

I really didn't have a plan, Kevin. I knew I was gonna get a job, or at least I was gona try to get a job, and this is where it all starts. So that day I went to the candy store and bought the New York Times. And the reason I say that is because usually in my household we read the Daily News and the Daily Mirror. We didn't read the big important New York Times newspaper. <laugh> But I did. And in the New York Times, there was this thing called the Want Ads for Jobs. And there it was. It said, "Wanted office boy in show business publicity office."

Kevin Goetz (09:27):

Oh my God.

*Sid Ganis (09:28):

Must wanna be in show business. So Kevin, here's what happened. I, I learned how to type in junior high school, typed out a little note and sent it off and a couple days later I got a note back and it said, "Thank you for applying for the job, but we filled it. " So this is where life changes, Kevin. I took that note and instead of tossing it out, I put it on the kitchen counter. I remember it as though it were a couple of days ago. That afternoon, my uncle Phil and my aunt Estelle came by and those days- 

Kevin Goetz (10:01):

Wait a minute. No, you didn't have an Aunt Estelle and an Uncle Phil. I mean, we all had an Uncle Phil and an Aunt Estelle.

Sid Ganis (10:08):

You had one.

Kevin Goetz (10:09):

Well, of course we had. I had both of those.

*Sid Ganis (10:11):

<laugh> They came by and in those days, Kevin, you well know that you didn't have to make an appointment and send a text and do the thing. You just came by, you know? Of course. So Aunt Estelle and Uncle Phil came by and Uncle Phil said, "What are you doing? Sid." And I said, "Oh, I'm trying to get a job, Uncle Phil." And I turned to the kitchen counter and I said, "Here, look at this. " And Uncle Phil read the notes that said, "Sorry, we filled the job, Lee Solters." And you know what he said to me?

Kevin Goetz (10:42):

What?

Sid Ganis (10:43):

He said, "I know that guy, and that's the beginning of my career."

Kevin Goetz (10:48):

I have chills.

Sid Ganis (10:49):

Well, because it's the truth, Kevin, you know, those things do happen.

Kevin Goetz (10:53):

Okay, so what happened? He called on your behalf?

Sid Ganis (10:55):

Called Lee, this guy, his friend Lee Solters, and I got the job.

Kevin Goetz (10:59):

Wait a minute. So they hadn't really hired someone?

Sid Ganis (11:02):

They hired another guy, David Rush, and they hired me.

Kevin Goetz (11:06):

You know his name, David Rush. I love that. 

Sid Ganis (11:09):

I remember him. I tried to find him.

Kevin Goetz (11:11):

So Uncle Phil essentially is responsible for the kismet that got you into business.

Sid Ganis (11:17):

Exactly.

Kevin Goetz (11:18):

Wow. Call out to Uncle Phil. Now, let me ask you how long you stayed in publicity before you got your next gig.

Sid Ganis (11:26):

Well, I worked for Lee for a total of three years and at the end of three years I was making $70 a week and what was I doing? I was the office boy. I was getting the coffee, learning the business, reading the papers, going down to the newsstand twice a day, one for the morning papers, one for the afternoon papers to see what Walter Winchell and Earl Wilson and Dorothy Kilgallen and all those guys put in their columns about our clients and our clients- Oh,

Kevin Goetz (11:52):

So it was personal publicity.

Sid Ganis (11:54):

They were personal publicity and David Merrick Broadway shows. So it was both.

Kevin Goetz (11:59):

What did you learn most from Lee Solters, by the way?

Sid Ganis (12:02):

Perseverance. A kind of a frantic effort and need to get the job done to get those column items out.

Kevin Goetz (12:11):

And urgency.

Sid Ganis (12:13):

Urgency. I said frantic, you said urgency. I like it.

Kevin Goetz (12:16):

But Sid, you were about to tell me who he represented. And I, I interrupted you.

Sid Ganis (12:20):

He represented Anne Bancroft, Eli Wallach, Oscar Hamulka, the Stratford Connecticut Shakespeare Festival, then this ingenue kid who was in I Can Get It For You Wholesale down the street named Barbara Streisand. 

Kevin Goetz (12:41):

I think I've heard of her.

Sid Ganis (12:42):

She was a kid doing, I can get for your wholesale and getting some notices for-

Kevin Goetz (12:47):

And a Tony nomination, if I'm not mistaken. Was it,

Sid Ganis (12:49):

Did, did she get a Tony nomination?

Kevin Goetz (12:51):

I believe she did. Sid, let me ask you why you left there and did you have an offer to go somewhere?

Sid Ganis (12:57):

I left there because get ready for this. Uncle Phil said, "I have a friend who is the head of the publicity department at 20th Century Fox." And remember, Kevin, in those days, well, you can't remember because you weren't even born by then.

Kevin Goetz (13:13):

The exploitation department, wasn't it?

Sid Ganis (13:16):

Well, the thing was in those days, 20th Century Fox Corporate was in New York City.

Kevin Goetz (13:22):

Who was the guy that Uncle Phil knew?

Sid Ganis (13:25):

His name was Ed Sullivan. He was a big guy and they called him Big Ed Sullivan.

Kevin Goetz (13:29):

Not really Ed Sullivan.

Sid Ganis (13:31):

No, not the Ed Sullivan. A different one.

Kevin Goetz (13:33):

Okay. Big Ed Sullivan. But I was gonna ask you about Uncle Phil. What did he do that he was a great connection.

Sid Ganis (13:38):

Okay. Yeah, of course. I haven't told you yet. Uncle Phil at one point worked for Lowes. He, when they had theaters all over the city, he was a publicist at Lowes, but then he went into the restaurant business and worked for restaurant associates in New York City and they had very high end restaurants like the Four Seasons and the four of the 12 seasons.

Kevin Goetz (14:02):

Is that how he knew all these people?

Sid Ganis (14:04):

That's how he knew all these people.

Kevin Goetz (14:06):

Incredible. Incredible.

Sid Ganis (14:08):

They'd come to the restaurant and you know what he would do? Uncle Phil would cuff them. You know that term, cuff 'em? No. Give him their lunch free because they would bring their clients, their fancy clients to the restaurant to be in the restaurant.

Kevin Goetz (14:22):

Oh, I love that. They, he'd cuff them.

Sid Ganis (14:25):

Don't ask me why that word goes with a free lunch, but it does.

Kevin Goetz (14:31):

And so as a result of that, it's like giving concierges a break who are recommending restaurants for their-

Sid Ganis (14:37):

Yeah, that's right.

Kevin Goetz (14:38):

Right. Yeah.

Sid Ganis (14:38):

Yeah, exactly.

Kevin Goetz (14:39):

It's genius.

Sid Ganis (14:40):

So Kevin, here's the thing. Uncle Phil said, "Go see Big Ed Sullivan." And I did, and Ed Sullivan said, "Okay, thank you, good kid. You're a good young man. You'll have the job here." So I got the job and I went back to Lee Solters and I said, "Lee, I'm leaving." And that's when this man told me the following, "You'll never make it in this business." Quote, unquote. He's a darling man Lee and I love him and he's long gone, but he did say those words to me. He was pissed that I was leaving him.

Kevin Goetz (15:14):

Oh, that's why he said it. I thought he was saying it because maybe you were too nice. Maybe you- No, no. You didn't have that sense of urgency or franticness or whatever.

Sid Ganis (15:23):

He didn't like that I was leaving.

Kevin Goetz (15:25):

<laugh> Oh my God, you'll never work again. Yeah. Now, let me ask you something. Did he ever make amends on that?

Sid Ganis (15:31):

Yeah, I didn't know what to do except almost fall down in front of him.

Kevin Goetz (15:35):

And cry.

Sid Ganis (15:36):

But I never bore him that grudge. I just didn't. I don't know why. I didn't believe it, I guess.

Kevin Goetz (15:43):

You know, Sid, I get the impression that you don't have any grudges and I also get the impression that there are very few, if any, people that you truly, truly dislike. And that's part of your- 

Sid Ganis (15:54):

I got one.

Kevin Goetz (15:54):

You got one? Wow.

Sid Ganis (15:56):

Yeah, and even this guy, it's long gone. Who cares?

Kevin Goetz (15:59):

That's interesting, because to me, it never pays to hold on to any of that hate or negativity. Exactly. It so doesn't affect the other person ever. It only affects you. So I tend to be very forgiving and move on now. I don't want them in my life, that's a whole nother thing, but I don't want to hold that negativity ever. So that's funny you said that. So you stay at Fox for a time.

Sid Ganis (16:26):

I stayed at Fox during some tumultuous years.

Kevin Goetz (16:29):

Wait a minute, you weren't there during Cleopatra, were you?

Sid Ganis (16:32):

Exactly. That's what I said.

Kevin Goetz (16:33):

With Jack Brodsky?

Sid Ganis (16:34):

With Jack Brodsky and Nat Weiss. Exactly. Yo really did do your research, man.

Kevin Goetz (16:39):

The studio almost went under.

Sid Ganis (16:40):

Well, the thing was, I was hired as a staff writer, but then the guy who I immediately worked for, a guy named Dick Brooks left and he was the newspaper contact. And in New York City, there was seven newspapers in those days.

Kevin Goetz (16:54):

And who were the others areas? What were the others broken into?

Sid Ganis (16:57):

Radio and television.

Kevin Goetz (16:58):

Got it.

Sid Ganis (16:58):

Trade press, magazines.

Kevin Goetz (17:01):

Ah. Magazine.

Sid Ganis (17:02):

Remember magazines?

Kevin Goetz (17:03):

I think I sort of do. Life and Newsweek and Time and all those magazines. Life

Sid Ganis (17:08):

Look.

Kevin Goetz (17:08):

Those weren't trades though. Those were the magazines, right? 

Sid Ganis (17:11):

No, they weren't trades. No. The trades were-

Kevin Goetz (17:12):

Hollywood Reporter and Variety.

Sid Ganis (17:14):

Hollywood Reporter, Variety, but there was also Motion Picture Daily and Motion Picture Herald and- The

Kevin Goetz (17:21):

Fact that you could talk about those days in the '60s is so cool.

Sid Ganis (17:26):

I can.

Kevin Goetz (17:26):

Our listeners are gonna be very interested to hear. Now, I understand Cleopatra did not actually bring the studio to its knees. It was already at its knees. In fact, Cleopatra- Yeah. ... made money.

Sid Ganis (17:38):

It wasn't a gigantic hit, but it also wasn't a failure. It was just the most expensive movie.

Kevin Goetz (17:42):

Did you know Joe Mankiewicz?

Sid Ganis (17:44):

During Cleopatra, I did not know Joe Mankowitz. Later on in my life, thank goodness I worked for Joe Mankiewicz for two and a half years on a movie and this incredible man, director, humorist, satirist, cynicalist. Is there such a word as cynicalist?

Kevin Goetz (18:06):

We're gonna make it up right now.

*Sid Ganis (18:08):

Make it up right now. Taught me about life and life in Hollywood and his disdain always with a smile for Hollywood Joe, one of the greats.

Kevin Goetz (18:19):

You know, there's a wonderful call out and I know Ben Mankiewicz has been so kind and mentions me in my books on Turner Classic movies. His uncle was Joe Mankiewicz and he narrates a marvelous podcast if you haven't heard it or any of our listeners. 

Sid Ganis (18:34):

I've heard it.

Kevin Goetz (18:34):

It's called The Plot Thickens. I'm telling the listeners to check it out and you'll learn so much about Cleopatra, how Joe Mankiewicz had the worst experience of his life on the picture and also what a distinguished, incredible, insane career that man had.

Sid Ganis (18:49):

Fantastic. You're ... Thank you for saying that last part because he did. And I met him, you know, not during the time I was in New York City working on Cleopatrick for Jack Brodsky, but years later when he made one of his last films called There was a Crooked Man, not a great one by any means. I don't

Kevin Goetz (19:08):

Even know that picture. How do you like that?

Sid Ganis (19:10):

Listen to this cast. Erk Douglas, Henry Honda, Hume Cronin.

Kevin Goetz (19:16):

All desperate to work with the great Joe Mankiewicz.

Sid Ganis (19:19):

Joe Mankiewicz, and there it was.

Kevin Goetz (19:20):

And that's insane. What an honor that must have been.

Sid Ganis (19:23):

You bet it was.

Kevin Goetz (19:24):

One of my favorite movies of all time is, of course, All About Eve. It's just the perfect movie, isn't it?

*Sid Ganis (19:29):

Kevin, you know what? Let me just say something here. We can go on and talk forever and I hope we do on this podcast. But I'm absolutely grateful in my life to have worked for Joe, but worked in this incredible world that you and I live in and work in and now working with my wife. The best part of this now is I'm working with Nancy and-

Kevin Goetz (19:56):

Nancy Hult Ganis.

Sid Ganis (19:58):

That's her.

Kevin Goetz (19:59):

Nancy, are you there? I just wanna do a shout out to you.

Sid Ganis (20:02):

She, <laugh> she's out here now.

Kevin Goetz (20:04):

She's awesome. Oh, okay. Well, I saw her walking behind you-

Sid Ganis (20:07):

Yeah,

Kevin Goetz (20:07):

She did. ... just a moment ago. But Nancy's a pretty extraordinary woman in her own right.

*Sid Ganis (20:12):

Yeah, she is. So what I'm expressing to you now really and maybe worthwhile on this podcast is my gratitude and my gratitude to everybody around me and the people in my life who have helped me through this business of though.

Kevin Goetz (20:28):

And Sid, we're grateful to you. And I have a particular memory of, it must have been 20 some odd years ago where I was boarding a plane. The phone rang, I picked it up and Kevin it’s Sid Ganis. Hi, Sid. I'm so excited to tell you you just got voted into the Academy of Most Culture Arts and Sciences. <laugh> I said, "What?" <laugh> What? Oh my God. I started crying and you're the one that delivered the news. You were president at the time.

Sid Ganis (21:00):

Yeah.

Kevin Goetz (21:01):

You know what also I appreciate so much is you're in the marketing at PR branch. Yeah. Which is something that speaks volumes about who you are and also the gratitude that you're talking about because you could have left to join the executive branch, the producer's branch, but you stayed with marketing at PR. Why'd you do that?

Sid Ganis (21:20):

Because it's my home, man. <laugh>

Kevin Goetz (21:23):

I handed you that one, Sid.

Sid Ganis (21:24):

Thank you. <laugh> It's my home. It's my chops. I know the business, whatever, or, you know, I stumble through the business and I know my marketing and PR.

Kevin Goetz (21:36):

Coming through marketing as you did and not creative development per se. Mm-hmm. What do you think that did in terms of your understanding of audiences?

*Sid Ganis (21:47):

That's why that's such a great branch and such a great discipline to know because it teaches you the kind of the main thing. You know, what does an audience want? What's an audience looking for? You never quite know. You learn, of course, that you never quite know what an audience wants. You have a sense of what an audience wants and then you work off that sense, but you never quite know what an audience wants.

Kevin Goetz (22:16):

Can you tell me what you, what Sid has mostly learned about audiences that many other executives in your position, either running studios or as an independent producer, don't know or have yet to figure out perhaps?

*Sid Ganis (22:30):

Well, Kevin, part of this is what I know you know well. Audiences are predictable only to a point. I totally appreciate the predictability of an audience, what's in the atmosphere, what's of interest to young people these days. But what I also know and I'm thinking about now is this thing about if the story is honed and the actors and the action are reasonable audiences will say, "Yeah, that's pretty cool. That's pretty interesting." So I guess I've learned the yin and the yang of it, yes and no, you can figure it out and then you can't figure it out. And then the other part of it, the main thing is, and it's worked with me all through my career, when you're in marketing, you gotta sell it. You gotta convince an audience to come around. And when you have the goods, man, when the story is good and the work is fine, man, you know you got something.

Kevin Goetz (23:40):

Or it's yours for the losing, you know? It's like yours to listen. Yeah,

Sid Ganis (23:43):

It's all, exactly right. And every once in a while, guess what? You lose it.

Kevin Goetz (23:46):

Of course, but that's often for circumstances beyond your control. There's industry, there's geopolitical, there's all sorts of things weather. <laugh>

Sid Ganis (23:55):

Well, there is that. There's all the geopolitical stuff. And then just to say, because there's truth in this too, every once in a while you botch it. You know, you're just plain old botched.

Kevin Goetz (24:05):

It's true. I've seen it time and time again and yet you know that the intentions were great and nobody goes in to try to do something wrong, but sometimes you take a risk and it's not the right risk. But if you own it, you learn from it and you move on to the next one.

Sid Ganis (24:20):

Can I tell you a story about predictability and unpredictability sometimes doesn't work. I have a little story here.

Kevin Goetz (24:29):

Sure.

*Sid Ganis (24:29):

And it's about the discipline of market research and about showing an audience a movie and then there being a theory about the movie and then that theory doesn't work. Here it is, very simple.

Kevin Goetz (24:45):

Please.

Sid Ganis (24:45):

Now I'm at Paramount Pictures and lucky enough to have a script that we worked on now running the studio at this point now. We have this movie Ghost.

Kevin Goetz (24:55):

I was with you. And by the way, the number of events that we have been at and through together over the years.

Sid Ganis (25:02):

Yeah, Kevin. Sure.

Kevin Goetz (25:03):

It's hundreds.

Sid Ganis (25:06):

Yes. How nice.

Kevin Goetz (25:08):

How nice. Very nice.

(25:11):

But you know what? I'm gonna hold that question until after the break. So when we come back, we're gonna talk to Sid about his arrival at Paramount. We have to bring Lucas into it first, of course, and also talk about Columbia and what's happening afterwards. We'll be back in a moment. Listeners, the Motion Picture and Television Fund is a nonprofit charitable organization that supports working and retired members of the entertainment community. This wonderfully run organization offers assistance for living and aging with dignity and purpose in the areas of health and social services, including temporary financial assistance, case management, and residential living, and has been a crucial lifeline to thousands during and beyond critical times that our industry continues to experience. To learn more, visit mptf.com. Please join me in helping others in our industry during times of need. There are so many ways to offer support and get involved.

(26:20):

Thank you. We're back with the multi-versatile Sid Ganis. He's an overall mensch and a really important part of our business. Sid, you started to talk about Paramount and when you arrived there and you were gonna tell us a story about a particular movie called Ghost, which was a massive hit. Tell us the story.

Sid Ganis (26:44):

There was a moment when it was time to show the cut of the movie Ghost to a research audience. And there I was in those days, I was now the head of the studio, so wonderful accomplishments and my end, but here was an important movie that we were taking out for the very first time.

Kevin Goetz (27:04):

I wanna say we went to the Sherman Oaks Galleria.

Sid Ganis (27:07):

My gosh, Kevin.

Kevin Goetz (27:09):

I don't know how I do that, but I- How the hell do you remember this? Am I right or wrong?

Sid Ganis (27:14):

You're right. <laugh>

Kevin Goetz (27:15):

And I remember Howard Koch Sr.

Sid Ganis (27:17):

Howard Koch Senior, of course, was the executive producer of Ghost. He came in halfway through and the movie was in production when Howard came in. There was the bickering on the set.

Kevin Goetz (27:30):

You needed him to be the consigliere.

Sid Ganis (27:32):

Consigliere. He was a leveler. Totally. He was great. Wonderful. Aging, wonderful, handsome, great, beautiful man, and there he was helping out in a very big, wonderful way. But here's the unpredictability of our business, Kevin. I'm gonna tell a story on a guy who I adored. I think he was your boss, wonderful Joe Farrell.

Kevin Goetz (27:54):

Oh, yes, of course. For 16 years, Catherine Paura and Joe were, were my bosses.

*Sid Ganis (28:01):

And I wanna tell everybody who's listening and watching this that I adored him. A wonderful man, Kevin just said it, now I'm saying it. So there must be some truth on it. So the film played at the Sherman Oaks Galleria and I was standing in the back and Joe Farrell, this man who knew everything about movie making and predictability and research and knew the game, but knew it from a creative point of view and also from a statistical point of view, walked up to me and I will never forget it. People were just putting out the research cards to the audience. Joe Farrell looked at me and he shook his head, no. He said, "Nope," and walked away. He was saying to me, "Sid, this movie's not gonna work." That's what Joe said, the predictability and unpredictability. Joe Farrell, I revere him, everybody listening and watching this. He said, "No." And then the audience said, "Yes."

Kevin Goetz (29:04):

Well, we all do it. I said it on Barbie before it was a movie. When I heard the concept of it, remember it didn't have Greta Gerwig, it didn't have Margot Robbie. I just heard it and it was floating around Hollywood, not getting made. And I was brought in by Mattel as a consultant. <laugh> I basically said, "Run from this. " And Robbie Brenner, my dear friend who runs Mattel said to me, "I can't run from this. I'm running the television and movie division. I have to embrace this. It's our biggest property." I said, "Okay, then make it work."

Sid Ganis (29:34):

Okay. <laugh> So there you go.

Kevin Goetz (29:36):

And by the way, she did. And they did-

Sid Ganis (29:38):

But that's just it. You just verified the theory that there's predictability and there's unpredictability.

Kevin Goetz (29:44):

In fairness to Joe and to myself, we're more right than wrong. <laugh>

Sid Ganis (29:48):

Okay, okay. <laugh>

Kevin Goetz (29:51):

But my God, none of us know anything, do we?

Sid Ganis (29:53):

No.

Kevin Goetz (29:54):

That's great, man. That is so great. I want to ask you about Lucas. We can't ignore that because that was a peer ... Period of time before you got to Paramount.

Sid Ganis (30:02):

Yes. So along the way in my career, when I was working at a company called Seven Arts in New York City, this is before California was in my life. So this was in the mid '60s. I met this guy name was Francis Ford Coppola.

Kevin Goetz (30:17):

Had he done The Godfather yet?

Sid Ganis (30:19):

No Godfather.

Kevin Goetz (30:19):

No Godfather.

*Sid Ganis (30:20):

In those days, I was working at Seven Arts. Ray Stark was one of the partners in Seven Arts with Eliot Hyman and Ken Hyman. And Ray Stark introduced me to him on the phone because Francis was about to make his second movie. He had made a movie called Dementia 13. But he was about to make a movie called You're a Big Boy Now. And he was gonna do it in New York City. So Ray Stark wanted me to meet him and I met him on the phone in 1963, I think. And in the year 2026, this very year, this very day, he and I are pals. So it was a good phone call. So then I moved to California, Los Angeles, and Francis was making Finian's Rainbow at Warner Brothers and I was working very unhappily in the Warner Brothers publicity department at the studio in Burbank.

And Francis said to me, "Hey, what are you doing during lunch? Come, I wanna show you a little movie." And I said, "Okay." We went to the certain screening room at Warner's and he showed me a short called THX11384EB.

Kevin Goetz (31:31):

I've never gotten chills twice in a podcast. <laugh>

*Sid Ganis (31:34):

He showed me that short and a couple other people he invited and he said in the back of the screening room, there's the guy, his name is George Lucas. And as I was walking out, Francis was standing there and he said, "Sid, this is George." And this little guy, I mean slim, little, quiet guy said, "Hello." And I said, "Hello." And that was that for a number of years until one day Francis said, "George wants to talk to you. " And George Lucas after Star Wars, this was 1979, said, "Would you like to come and work for me first in Los Angeles and then in San Francisco?" And I said, "Yes." And started working for him just as Empire Strikes Back was going into production and a movie called More American Graffiti was about to be released at Universal. That's when I started working for him.

Kevin Goetz (32:32):

So history in the making, you were there.

Sid Ganis (32:34):

History in the making, I worked for George for a wonderful total of six and a half years, first in LA. Then my first foray working for him in San Francisco.

Kevin Goetz (32:47):

You still friends?

Sid Ganis (32:48):

Oh, yes. He's a little busy right now though, isn't he? 

Kevin Goetz (32:52):

I'll say this weekend.

Sid Ganis (32:53):

Building a museum.

Kevin Goetz (32:54):

Yeah. That has threatened to open many times already.

Sid Ganis (32:58):

It's opening September 23rd.

Kevin Goetz (33:00):

I mean, I cannot wait for this museum.

Sid Ganis (33:02):

He and his wife, Melody, and his life's were collecting art and some of his Star Wars are, but, you know, be sure that there'll be some of that.

Kevin Goetz (33:11):

So you'll be there on the 23rd.

Sid Ganis (33:13):

I'll be there probably a day or two before.

Kevin Goetz (33:17):

<laugh> So Sid, you go from Lucas to Paramount?

Sid Ganis (33:20):

I go from Lucas to Paramount. And the reason I go from Lucas to Paramount is I lived and worked in San Francisco, but George, he wasn't the most communicative guy in town. Wonderful, wonderful man, but he's got other things to do different than hobknobbing around.

Kevin Goetz (33:38):

Like Invent Worlds. <laugh>

*Sid Ganis (33:40):

Yeah. <laugh> So he would send Sid Ganis to Los Angeles to be with the guys at Fox on the Star Wars movies and the guys at Paramount on the Indiana Jones movies on Raise the Lost Star. And it was when I was, uh, visiting twice a week from San Francisco to LA at Paramount to talk about the marketing of this new movie called Raiders of Something of An Ark or something like that.

Kevin Goetz (34:10):

Oh, Raiders of Something An Ark.

Sid Ganis (34:12):

You know, the guys at Paramount noticed the work I was doing with them, very happily doing with them. And at one point, Frank Mancuso said to me, "Hey, come work for us. Come back to Los Angeles."

Kevin Goetz (34:26):

So was that before Ned Tanen or?

Sid Ganis (34:29):

It was during Ned Tanen. Ned Tanen was the head of the studio.

Kevin Goetz (34:33):

Mm-hmm.

Sid Ganis (34:34):

And Frank said to me, "Come to LA. You'll be the head of marketing and distribution and then you'll be the head of the studio."

Kevin Goetz (34:43):

Wow. 

Sid Ganis (34:43):

And by then, I had met Nancy in San Francisco and fell deeply in love with Nancy in San Francisco.

Kevin Goetz (34:53):

What did she do in San Francisco?

Sid Ganis (34:55):

She was working at KQED. She was working in public broadcasting, PBS in San Francisco. Ah. And it was because of Brady's Lost Doc that I met her because good old Ronald Reagan cut funds for the arts in those days and PBS was one of the unfortunate recipients of that cut. And Nancy was given her pink slip, but then they said to her, "Hey, don't do your pink slip. Instead, work on independent films." And one of the independent films we've acquired at PBS is the making of Raiders of the Lost Dark. So Nancy and I had to meet. She was at PBS, KQED. I was at Lucasfilm and we met one day because George Lucas gave the Making of Raiders, which I produced to PBS as a fundraiser.

Kevin Goetz (35:46):

Wait, wait. Didn't you win an Emmy for that or something?

Sid Ganis (35:49):

Yes, I did. And the reason I won an Emmy is because good old Nancy Hult, we were just colleagues, I guess you'd say. She said, "No, we're gona put this up for an Emmy." And she did. She saw it to it and I won it.

Kevin Goetz (36:02):

Wow.

Sid Ganis (36:02):

Got it. Not here in, in Hawaii, but sure is at home in Bolinas, California.

Kevin Goetz (36:08):

You have a place in Hawaii?

Sid Ganis (36:10):

Yes. We have a condo here. The reason we have a condo here is not because we love Hawaii more than anything else in the world, but our grandkids are here.

Kevin Goetz (36:18):

How did everyone get to Hawaii?

Sid Ganis (36:20):

Our daughter, Christina, I think she was going to Berkeley-

Kevin Goetz (36:23):

You have how many kids, by the way?

Sid Ganis (36:25):

Four kids. Nancy has two and I have two.

Kevin Goetz (36:28):

So Brady Bunch.

Sid Ganis (36:29):

We have a Brady Bunch. Four great girls, beautiful girls, three grandsons. So Christina, one day, I think she was going to a wedding here in Hawaii and at that wedding met the guy who was about to become her husband.

Kevin Goetz (36:44):

Oh.

Sid Ganis (36:44):

So Lamon. And they live here off the grid and-

Kevin Goetz (36:48):

It doesn't suck, does it?

Sid Ganis (36:50):

No, it's pretty good.

Kevin Goetz (36:52):

So can we move to Columbia?

Sid Ganis (36:53):

Sure.

Kevin Goetz (36:54):

How do you get that call?

*Sid Ganis (36:55):

Good old Ned said, "Okay, Sid, the job is yours, go do it. " And I did for two years. And after those two years, I wanted more than anything to become an independent professor. We did great. We did Ghost and we bought the rights to Forest Gump and a bunch of other good movies. Here's where, again, life changes. And Uncle Phil not involved here.

Kevin Goetz (37:17):

He's probably gone by now, Uncle Phil.

Sid Ganis (37:20):

Yeah, Uncle Phil was actually gone by then. But Peter Guber, who was a pal of mine and his then partner, John Peters, said to, call me and said, "Hey, very nice that you're an independent producer, but why don't you come to this new company we just bought called Columbia Pictures?" John and Peter said, "Hey, come on, you'll be a big shot at our company." And I said, "Yeah."

Kevin Goetz (37:46):

Was Mark Canton there yet or no?

Sid Ganis (37:48):

No. He was still at Warner Brothers, I think.

Kevin Goetz (37:51):

Ah, I'm trying to get a sense of the timeline, yeah.

Sid Ganis (37:53):

Yeah. It was Peter and John and myself.

Kevin Goetz (37:56):

Did you and Barbara become better friends from your Lee Solters days?

Sid Ganis (38:01):

You and I have known each other since those Lee Solters days.

Kevin Goetz (38:04):

she remembered you then?

Sid Ganis (38:06):

She remembers in her own way. <laugh>

Kevin Goetz (38:12):

That's lovely. <laugh>

Sid Ganis (38:14):

Whenever I see her, I haven't seen her lately. I think I will be seeing her again pretty soon now, but whenever I do see her, she kind of looks at me quizzically as though she never saw me before in her life.

Kevin Goetz (38:28):

Do I know you?

Sid Ganis (38:29):

Yeah, that, that kind of thing. Yeah. But that's okay. She's still Barbara, she's still wonderful and she still sang Miss Marmelstein and I can Get It For Your Wholesale.

Kevin Goetz (38:40):

Marmelstein.

Sid Ganis (38:41):

One night, listen to this, you just sparked my memory. Go back now to those Solters days when she was on Broadway and I can get it for your wholesale and doubling at the Blue Angel after the show. And I had a girlfriend in those days, young girl named Betty Jane whose brother-in-law was Bob Chartoff.

Kevin Goetz (39:09):

Oh, Irwin Winkler and Bob Chartoff.

Sid Ganis (39:13):

That's right. He wasn't a producer. He was an agent of William Morrison and he called his sister-in-law, Betty Jane, and said, "Hey, let's go to the Blue Angel tonight, invite your boyfriend, whoever that guy is, Sid, and we'll see Barbara Streisand do a nightclub show at the Blue Angel." So way, way back, maybe 1961 or something like that, there was Barbara Streisand singing away at The Blue Angel and after the show we talked and all, you know, Bob knew her a little bit and we talked a little bit. But even now, she looks at me quizzically as though she had never met me before. <laugh> But that's okay.

Kevin Goetz (39:54):

Hey, Sid, I want to bring this whole conversation full circle and I asked you in the beginning what you were most proud of in life and you didn't even hesitate to mention your kids and grandkids and spending time with the family and it's a great answer. Well, you never got the answer to the second one which was, what are you most proud of as you think about and reminisce now about your long and wonderful career in our business?

*Sid Ganis (40:21):

I got one for you, Kevin, I think. The movies have been great. I love every single one that I worked on, the big ones, the little ones, all that stuff. The people I've met in the industry have been remarkable, but the thing that I'm most proud of is that Academy Museum of Motion Pictures- Wow. ... that's sitting there- Wow. ... on Wilshire and Fairfax. And I'm most proud of it because it's now open about four years and for 17 years before that I and a bunch of others, not just me, but me, I bet Kevin, kind of in the forefront of it, not maybe, I mean, really up there-

Kevin Goetz (41:05):

Let, let, let me just jump in here and say yes and don't even like preface it.

Sid Ganis (41:10):

Okay.

Kevin Goetz (41:10):

Well, there you are, babe. Yo, go ahead. We're the spearheader of this dream 17 years before.

Sid Ganis (41:18):

Yeah. Okay. Hard for me to say yes me, but yes, me and others, Frank Pierson and many others have fun.

Kevin Goetz (41:25):

No, no, many people were i- important in driving it forward, but I'm saying- Yeah. ... the initial, you said we must have a museum.

Sid Ganis (41:33):

Yeah, we must have a museum.

Kevin Goetz (41:34):

We have to have a museum.

Sid Ganis (41:35):

Frank Pierson said it to me one day. He said, "We must have a museum." I said, "Ooh, what a nice idea." And I took it for ...

Kevin Goetz (41:44):

Absolutely. ... took it forward.

Sid Ganis (41:45):

Forward. 17 years of my life and I think I see it now. I mean, you know, it's there-

Kevin Goetz (41:50):

It's a legacy that you're leaving the business.

Sid Ganis (41:53):

I think so. Yeah.

Kevin Goetz (41:54):

Yeah.

Sid Ganis (41:54):

I really do.

Kevin Goetz (41:55):

Totally. I, I couldn't agree with you more. Very interesting answer. I wasn't necessarily expecting it, but it's a fantastic answer. I was just gonna ask you, what was it like to serve four consecutive terms as the president of the Academy of Motion Picture Arts and Sciences?

Sid Ganis (42:10):

Proud as I could possibly be. I didn't even know how great the gig was when I got it that first year. I thought, "Oh, how nice."

Kevin Goetz (42:18):

When you got it, what was your reaction?

Sid Ganis (42:21):

Well, I'd rather tell you my wife's reaction, Nancy's reaction. May I?

Kevin Goetz (42:25):

Of course.

*Sid Ganis (42:26):

Okay. So now we're at a board meeting and it's time to elect a new president. I knew I was up for it, but I hadn't expected to get it and I got it. So when the meeting was over, I called Nancy right from there, no cell phone, no cell phone. I ca- phone on the desk there. I picked up the phone, dialed Nancy at home, and I said, "Hey, Nance, I'm the president of the Academy of Motion Picture Arts and Sciences." She said, "Great. Get Jon Stewart."

Kevin Goetz (42:55):

Get Jon Stewart. ...

Sid Ganis (42:56):

To be your host.

Kevin Goetz (42:57):

I know.

Sid Ganis (42:58):

And I did. <laugh> 

Kevin Goetz (43:00):

I thought you were gonna say, she said, "Great. Don't forget to pick up two lamb chops and, uh, and salad fixings for dinner tonight." That's where I thought you were going with that.

Sid Ganis (43:12):

No. <laugh> She said, "Get Jon Stewart." My wife, who was the most wonderful, incredible, and most political animal in the world said, "Great, get Jon Stewart."

Kevin Goetz (43:23):

Just the greatest. Hey, Sid, listen, we can go on forever and ever.

Sid Ganis (43:28):

We could.

Kevin Goetz (43:29):

I wanna thank you for a lot of things, but I especially wanna thank you for the way you've treated me over the years and your decency and friendship have meant the world to me and I really wanna say I'm grateful and I love you.

Sid Ganis (43:40):

Thanks, Kevin. How very nice of you to say. I love you too. Thank you very, very much.

Kevin Goetz (43:48):

To our listeners, I hope you enjoy this conversation. For more insights into filmmaking, audience testing, and the business of Hollywood, I invite you to check out my books, Audienceology, and How to Score in Hollywood at Amazon or through my website at KevinGoetz360.com. You can also follow me on my social media. Next time on Don't Kill the Messenger, I'll be joined by one of Hollywood's most respected literary agents and champions of great storytelling, Bob Bookman. Until then, I'm Kevin Goetz, and to you, our listeners, I appreciate you being part of the movie-makingprocess. Your opinions matter.

Host: Kevin Goetz
Guest: Sid Ganis
Producer: Kari Campano
Writers: Kevin Goetz, Darlene Hayman, Nick Nunez, and Kari Campano
Audio Engineer: Gary Forbes (DG Entertainment)