Podcast: Don't Kill the Messenger with Movie Research Expert Kevin Goetz
Guest: Bob Bookman

Interview Transcript:

Speaker 1 (Announcer) (00:03):

From script to screen, every film is brought to life by visionary creatives and executives all sharing one mission to captivate the audience. Hosted by award-winning movie strategist Kevin Goetz, our podcast, Don't Kill the Messenger, offers a filmmaking masterclass through intimate conversations with Hollywood's most influential voices. And now, your host, Kevin Goetz.

Kevin Goetz (00:29):

Not every great book makes a great movie. The challenge isn't finding a great story, it's recognizing which stories can successfully make the leap from page to screen. My guest today has spent decades doing exactly that. Bob Bookman is one of Hollywood's most respected literary agents, managers, and producers. Over a remarkable career, he has represented authors and filmmakers, including Michael Crichton, John Irving, Thomas Harris, Jonathan Demme, Cameron Crowe, and Tom Stoppard. Helping to bring stories to the screen that became Jurassic Park, The Silence of the Lambs, Hannibal, The Cider House Rules, A Beautiful Mind, Jerry Maguire, and so many others. In recent years, he has brought that same eye for material to producing with projects including the Academy Award Best Picture nominee, A Complete Unknown. Bob, welcome to my show.

Bob Bookman (01:30):

Thank you, Kevin. Thank you for inviting me.

Kevin Goetz (01:33):

It's great to have you here. We were talking before the show on your very inferior educational path. I made the terrible mistake of saying you went to UCLA, he says, "I went to Berkeley." And then, of course, Yale Law School.

Bob Bookman (01:48):

Correct.

Kevin Goetz (01:49):

You were a European history major.

Bob Bookman (01:51):

Correct.

Kevin Goetz (01:53):

I love that because I love history. Can you tell me why you chose to major in European history and why you went on to get your JD?

Bob Bookman (02:00):

Well, I think in terms of the first question, I had a lot of times what your inspiration is comes from a great teacher. And I had a class in European history from 1648 to the present, the present then being 1965 with a wonderful man named William Slottman at Berkeley. Nobody knew what to expect, but he was absolutely extraordinary and that was where I think from him I really got my passion, although I'd taken advanced placement European history in high school.

Kevin Goetz (02:32):

I was going to say, did you know about Slottman before you went?

Bob Bookman (02:35):

No, it was his first semester.

Kevin Goetz (02:37):

Oh, wow.

Bob Bookman (02:37):

So I just wanted to take the course. I had no idea 

Kevin Goetz (02:40):

So you just had an interest in it?

Bob Bookman (02:41):

I had a general interest, yeah.

Kevin Goetz (02:43):

Why 1648? Why did he start there?

Bob Bookman (02:44):

Treaty of Westphalia. End of the 30 years war. And that really was the end of the religious wars. And so that's a good dividing point between before then and after that.

Kevin Goetz (02:55):

I want to ask you about getting your law degree. Did you think you wanted to be a lawyer after getting that?

Bob Bookman (03:00):

No, actually what happened was I was in my senior year at Berkeley and I didn't know what I wanted to do except I knew I didn't want to be a doctor. So I figured I applied to history graduate schools, I applied to international study schools and I applied to law schools. And I got into Yale Law School and a product that California public school system, which I was, gets into Yale Law School, you go.

Kevin Goetz (03:24):

Tell me how you got into the agency world?

Bob Bookman (03:26):

That goes back to law school actually because when I went to law school, I in fact had graduated from Berkeley in 1968, which was the last year of graduate school deferments during the war in Vietnam and it was before the lottery.

Kevin Goetz (03:42):

Is that one of the reasons that you got to not go to Vietnam?

*Bob Bookman (03:45):

What happened was when I was at Berkeley, somebody said to me something very smart, they said, "You never know what could happen. You should go over to the Presidio," which was then an army fort in San Francisco and put your name on waiting lists for Army Reserve units. So now in 1968, I'm suddenly classified 1-A, which means you could be drafted at any time. I've gone east to Yale. I'm sweating bullets. I barely can sleep. And I get a letter from a unit at the Presidio saying, "Show up on this date and you're in the unit, otherwise we'll go to the next name." So I dropped out of Yale Law School after a month, lived with my parents in Westwood, commuted up for a weekend a month, hoping I would be called up in time to do my 120 days of active duty and get back to Yale, which I just managed to do. Wow. So what did I do in between? I read all the novels I hadn't read as a history major I wanted to read and I started going to movies. Now you have to understand, my mother was a native of Los Angeles. She was born in 1922. What was her name? Maxine Pines was her maiden name. And her father, my grandfather, George Pines, was the first allergist in Southern California and just was an extraordinary person. And she grew up with the first generation of kids in the movie business as a result of which around our house, people in the movie business were referred to as those people. In other words, we do not associate with them, Bob.

Kevin Goetz (05:14):

Where in LA?

Bob Bookman (05:16):

In Westwood. A half block from UCLA. Anyway, so I read all the novels I hadn't read that I wanted to read and went to movies.

Kevin Goetz (05:24):

Most influential novel at that time?

Bob Bookman (05:24):

For me?

Kevin Goetz (05:27):

Yes.

Bob Bookman (05:27):

Easily Proust. Then called Remembrance of Things Past now In Search of Lost Time. I wrote my senior honors thesis on Marcel Proust as a social historian.

Kevin Goetz (05:37):

What about movie at that time?

Bob Bookman (05:40):

With my favorite movie then?

Kevin Goetz (05:41):

Influential.

Bob Bookman (05:42):

Oh, influential. La Grande Illusion. Grand Illusion, Renoir.

Kevin Goetz (05:47):

Jesus. I love this guy. Bob Bookman, man. Okay, so you, get that knowledge, that insatiable need to consume these great books, movies, and you do what with it.

Bob Bookman (06:02):

What I do is when I get back to Yale, the fall of 69 now, because I just gotten out of the

Kevin Goetz (06:08):

Did your 120 days?

Bob Bookman (06:10):

Yeah.

Kevin Goetz (06:10):

What a smart thing to have done.

Kevin Goetz (06:12):

Go ahead. 

Bob Bookman (06:13):

Well, I was lucky actually that I got into the unit.

Bob Bookman (06:15):

Anyway,

Kevin Goetz (06:16):

So Yeah, but had you not actually volunteered -

Bob Bookman (06:19):

Right. I was going to sign up. 

Kevin Goetz (06:21):

You would be maybe having a very different conversation or not having a conversation.

Bob Bookman (06:22):

Anyway, so what happened was a guy I had known named Peter Broderick briefly the year before, he and I started something called the Yale Law School Film Society. And I spent three years at Yale Law School running a film society.

Kevin Goetz (06:37):

What was the criteria to get into the Film Society?

Bob Bookman (06:40):

You had to pay a dollar and then if you had a membership for a dollar a semester, it was then I think 50 cents a movie.

Kevin Goetz (06:47):

And so who curated the movies, you and Peter?

Bob Bookman (06:50):

Yeah, but I ended up being just me.

Kevin Goetz (06:52):

And where would you get the prints?

*Bob Bookman (06:54):

Well, at that time you saw movies on 16 millimeter and they were all kinds of distributors. You could get almost any movie you wanted except ones that for copyright reasons, you couldn't like the Chaplin films, like Animal Crackers, like a number of others. And I knew a guy named William K. Everson, Bill Everson. He had an encyclopedic knowledge of film but not a critical knowledge of film. I used to go to his apartment in New York, 118 West 79th Street, floor-to-ceiling, 16 millimeter prints. Oh no. He would bring. I had my own screening room in the law school underneath and he would come up on the weekend and bring a bag full of prints and if I wanted to show something like those films, he'd loan me the prints even though they were illegal to show. We had what we called special events and special events were bringing classic directors because remember in the late 60s, early 70s, a lot of the directors from the early days, even the silent era were still alive and mostly sitting at home forgotten by everybody but the French and Andrew Sarris.

Kevin Goetz (07:58):

There is a marvelous documentary directed by Xan Cassavetes called The Z Channel. I remember the Z Channel. Of course you do. But this is on Jerry Harvey who was the curator of that and this conversation very much reminds me of the content of that documentary and it was made I think 20 years ago and they just did a screening of it not a week or two ago and it was unbelievable that Jerry Harvey was able to bring these great forgotten movies. But I brought the filmmakers. And the directors though to Z Channel, which would have happened about five, six years later than what you did.

Bob Bookman (08:38):

Yeah, because I was back here when the Z channel started.

Kevin Goetz (08:41):

When did you get here?

Bob Bookman (08:43):

72. Anyway, so there's documentaries that should be reshown now. Dick Schickel, who I met, I'll tell you how I met him. It's very amusing. Made a series of eight documentaries called The Men Who Made the Movies. And he made this, I'm going to say in 72, 73. And in fact, the only credit I have on a film until complete unknown was associate director of the documentary about Raoul Walsh because Dick was sick and needed to finish the film so I went out to see Raoul on his ranch and Simi Valley - Oh, wow. And shot the rest of it. But I met Raoul, I met Frank Capra, Fritz Lang, Jean Renoir, King Vidor, I mean the great directors of that era. And then the more contemporary directors who I brought up, I brought up Miloš Forman, I brought up Sam Peckinpah, all these directors. And we put them on for free.

(09:39):

No, Kubrick didn't travel. He was in the UK. Roman? Roman I knew afterwards.

Kevin Goetz (09:44):

Billy Friedkin?

Bob Bookman (09:46):

I brought Billy with The French Connection. I'll show you a picture of it, actually.

Kevin Goetz (09:50):

I love Billy Friedkin.

Bob Bookman (09:51):

Yeah, he was great. But that was a, he was a young director. That was one of the contemporary... 

Kevin Goetz (09:56):

And he was really a renegade. Sherry Lansing talks about how Billy needed a scene and I guess the studio wouldn't give it to him or something and he went out and got the footage himself. It was an insert of some sort and, you know, he got kind of shit for it, but in fact, she always respected him for that. And of course we all do.

Bob Bookman (10:13):

One of the reasons I love Billy is because after and at the end of his film career, he was a wonderful opera director.

Kevin Goetz (10:19):

Wasn't he wonderful?

Bob Bookman (10:20):

Terrific. I remember seeing Gianni Schicchi at the LA Opera and it was just phenomenal.

Kevin Goetz (10:24):

And he did Turandot.

Bob Bookman (10:25):

Yeah.

Kevin Goetz (10:26):

Listeners, you have to understand, I mean, this is a time when the Film Business 1969, Mark Harris's book where these five movies kind of really redefined a new movie era.

Bob Bookman (10:39):

Well, it was past, present, and future. And the one that won the Oscar was the one that was the contemporary one as opposed to the progressive one.

Kevin Goetz (10:46):

It's very interesting.

Bob Bookman (10:48):

Yeah.

Kevin Goetz (10:48):

So we're getting a history lesson on that is my point.

Bob Bookman (10:51):

The greatest book though, and I have to plug it - Please. Because he's a client of mine is Neal Gabler's book, An Empire of Their Own: How the Jews Invented Hollywood. I was very involved with the issue at the Academy Museum, which maybe your listeners don't know that when the Academy Museum opened, they opened with exactly zero recognition of the founding of Hollywood by the Jewish founders. 

Kevin Goetz (11:15):

Yeah, quite a lot of controversy. But they rectified it, haven't they?

Bob Bookman (11:18):

I was part of the rectification. 

Kevin Goetz (11:19):

Good for you.

Bob Bookman (11:20):

I brought Neil Gabler in and I got them to hire him as their consultant. And the head of the museum is Jewish then. Bill Kramer is now head of the Academy and it was all about my opinion was, oh, well that won't attract young people. So we have to do things more contemporary, which to me is inconsistent with being a museum. So they had a Spike Lee exhibition, they had a young Hispanic Filmmakers exhibition, but they had no acknowledgement except one snarky comment from Louis B. Mayer of any of these great people. Yeah. And now they have the first permanent exhibition.

Kevin Goetz (11:54):

I have to say that I don't begrudge the others being included. Yeah. That's not the point. Right. It was the omission that was so - Great, exactly, right. Glaring. All those other filmmakers deserve to be seen and heard, but of course, not having an acknowledgement of our roots was the thing that was most painful. Right. So how did we get to you as becoming an agent?

Bob Bookman (12:12):

I know that was a long story, right? So what happened was when I graduated from Yale, I came back here and I lived with my grandmother who had a wonderful house in Hancock Park that they had actually built, my mother's mother and I decided I'd go into law school for three years, I might as well take the bar. So I'm living at her house studying for the bar and trying to get a job in the movie business and I had clerked both my summers at law firms so I knew I didn't want to practice law.

Kevin Goetz (12:41):

Entertainment firms?

Bob Bookman (12:42):

Yeah, both. And so my mother is calling her mother every day saying, "You know, we paid for Bob's Yale Law School education. You really need to throw him out of the house and put him on the street so he gets a real job." And my wonderful - Thanks, mom. "I can't do that to my grandson." And my mother used to say, "You know what? Grandparents and their grandchildren have in common. They have a common enemy."

Kevin Goetz (13:04):

True.

Bob Bookman (13:05):

"You got it. " Anyway, 1972 was a major downturn in the movie business. People were being let off as opposed to being hired. So I got lots of interviews, lots of introductions, lots of you can't miss kid, but I don't have anything to offer you.

Kevin Goetz (13:19):

Why was that the case because of the changeover of going from these very commercial movies to the more independent minded movies?

Bob Bookman (13:25):

I think it was more making expensive movies that no one wanted to see as opposed to movies people wanted to see. 

Kevin Goetz (13:33):

I'm pausing for a second -

Bob Bookman (13:33):

Yeah.

Kevin Goetz (13:34):

To acknowledge that that is exactly what's going on right now.

Bob Bookman (13:36):

100% Anyway, someone said to me, and I don't remember who it was, "You know, if you're really serious about being in the movie business, you should become an agent." And I said, "What's an agent?" 'Cause back then, a PR agent, ad agent, none of everything in the movie business passes through the agencies and if you work for one of the three major agencies then for five years, then you'll know that's what you want to do and you'll be set. Or if not, you'll know what you want to do and be able to do it.

Kevin Goetz (14:06):

What were the three major agencies

Bob Bookman (14:07):

Then? At that time were William Morris, CMA and IFA.

Kevin Goetz (14:12):

CMA stood for?

Bob Bookman (14:13):

Creative Management Associates. And - IFA was an international famous agency.

Kevin Goetz (14:18):

That's the one you worked with, yes?

Bob Bookman (14:19):

Ultimately. Originally. But I'll tell you, the roots are interesting. First of all, CMA, you may notice is the same letters as MCA, because you may recall that MCA -

Kevin Goetz (14:28):

Wasserman.

Bob Bookman (14:29):

Exactly. MCA was the major agency along with William Morris, and in 1962, they bought Universal. And the Justice Department under Bobby Kennedy said, "You can't own an agency and a studio." 

Kevin Goetz (14:43):

So Lew had to give it up.

Bob Bookman (14:44):

You have to give up one or the other. So you know what Lew Wasserman, Mr. Democrat said, "Try and make me. " So they literally padlocked the door of the agency on Crescent and Santa Monica and Beverly Hills and I've always - 

Kevin Goetz (14:58):

That was Bobby that did that? 

Bob Bookman (14:59):

Yeah. Bobby.

Kevin Goetz (14:59):

Kennedy?

Bob Bookman (14:59):

Yeah. But I always felt the reason Lew Wasserman allowed that to happen is because he saw the inevitable and didn't want a powerful agency on the other side of the table so allowing MCA to develop - Dissipated some of that. Into small agencies, Chasin-Park-Citron, CMA, Adams, Ray & Rosenberg, all these agents - 

Kevin Goetz (15:22):

They all came out of that collapse, if you will.

Bob Bookman (15:24):

Yes.

Kevin Goetz (15:25):

So now you have all these boutique agencies opening, right?

Bob Bookman (15:27):

So now you've got IFA was before that AFA, Ashley-Famous Agency, that was Ted Ashley's agency. Mm-hmm. And before that, Ashley-Steiner. And when Steve Ross bought Ted Ashley and then he bought Warner Bros.-Seven Arts and he knew he couldn't own both of them because of the MCA precedent. So he sold Ashley famous to Marvin Josephson who had an agency and he basically represented Captain Kangaroo and he represented a lot of high end newscasters, Chet Huntley, Charles Collingwood, people like that of the day. And so when he bought AFA, merged the two together to create IFA, he suddenly had a complete agency in New York and Los Angeles.

Kevin Goetz (16:10):

Right, because no one was doing that part of the business. Right.

Bob Bookman (16:13):

So CMA had started with Freddie Fields and David Begelman.

Kevin Goetz (16:17):

Oh my God. Guys, these names, listen. I wish I could explain who all they're all - I know. Oh my God. At the time. And these are the guys that ran studios. Yeah. Ultimately, they went from the agency world either into production as producers or studio executives. 

Bob Bookman (16:30):

Or in the case of David Begelman in jail, but that's a whole other story.

Kevin Goetz (16:34):

Or in the case of Lou Wasserman, owner of a studio.

Bob Bookman (16:36):

Yeah. Well, it was publicly held company.

Kevin Goetz (16:38):

Yeah, but you know. Yeah. But

Bob Bookman (16:39):

Yeah.

Kevin Goetz (16:40):

Okay. So you land initially at -

Bob Bookman (16:43):

So now I have to have three interviews. Right. So my grandfather who had died a couple years before knew Abe Lastfogel who was the -

Kevin Goetz (16:53):

Oh. 

Bob Bookman (16:54):

Head of William Morris. William Morris. Legendary head started out as William Morris's office boy and was, I think, well into his 70s if not beyond at that time. And I remember it took like weeks for me to finally get the meeting with him. So my father gets me the interview with Abe Lastfogel. I'll never forget, I come in, it's the only meeting I've ever had was someone whose desk was on an elevated platform because he was so short. 

Kevin Goetz (17:21):

And wanted to be higher than those sitting on the other side of the table.

Bob Bookman (17:22):

Right. And he has his hands full and his arms out and he says, "Well, Mr. Bookman, before we start our conversation, I just want you to know there are no employment opportunities here at the William Morris office. Now how may I help you? " So that was one down.

Kevin Goetz (17:37):

I though you were going to say at the end, he said there was suddenly an opening.

Bob Bookman (17:39):

<laugh> Oh, no. And in fact, my father, the summer of my second year of law school introduced me to Norman Brokaw -

Kevin Goetz (17:46):

Another legend - 

Bob Bookman (17:47):

Who I had lunch with At the William Morris office also. Yes. He was like the creative... I mean, last year wasn't really an agent. He ran the agency. Norman Brokaw was an agent and he took me to lunch at Hillcrest and said, "Call me and I'm going to have you come by the William William Morris office. I'm going to show you around and we'll talk." I'm still waiting for the return phone call. <laugh> So that was William Morris, right? So now-

Kevin Goetz (18:11):

Now one down.

Bob Bookman (18:12):

One down. Yeah. Now I had met the wonderful Jack Gilardi. Jack Gilardi was married to Annette Funicello and famously said I married a star and made her an unknown and he was just a prince.

Kevin Goetz (18:25):

Everyone loved that guy.

*Bob Bookman (18:26):

Oh, well, he was a prince and he got me into a meeting with David Begelman. Now I remember going into the office and this long oak desk and David Begelman is on the phone with Charlie Joffe, who was then Woody Allen's manager and producer. And I'm thinking, "Man, this is where it all happens." And I have an interview with David Begelman, I don't get a job. And I felt later during the great Begelman scandal, one of the things that came out is he has claimed he had gone to Yale and I think he knew if I were there, I would know he had not gone to Yale. Oh, that's - To doubt.That's incredible. Now the third agency IFA was much more of a television packaging agent than a motion picture agency. Although at that time, Mike Medavoy was head of the Motion Picture Department, but I got an interview with Frank Konigsberg, another prince.

(19:19):

Frank actually had gone to Yale Law School. He was head of television packaging and co-head of the West Coast office and this is the serendipity about the movie business or entertainment. So I finally get in to see him. I remember the date. It was November 17th, 1969, 72 rather, because I had gotten the day before that I'd passed the bar. Don't ask me how I passed the bar. Anyway - 

Kevin Goetz (19:47):

Don't ask you how you remembered the date that you passed the bar. 

*Bob Bookman (19:49):

Well, because that's a pretty important day. Okay. I remember because November 20th was my first, anyway. So he says to me, "We've only been talking for 20 minutes or so, but you seem to be a fairly intelligent young man. How would you like to start Monday?" Now I didn't say, "What's my job? What's my compensation?" I said, "What time do you want me? " Oh, I love that. It turned out that his administrative assistant in television packaging had taken a job the week before as an entry level executive at CBS and he needed to hire somebody and I was on the couch.

Kevin Goetz (20:20):

It was not the mailroom.

Bob Bookman (20:21):

No, I am one of the few agents at a major agency -

Kevin Goetz (20:24):

Bypassed the mail room?

Bob Bookman (20:25):

Bypassed the mail room.

Kevin Goetz (20:26):

Were you still living at grandma's?

Bob Bookman (20:28):

Yes. And then shortly after I moved to the Villa Madrid on Miller Drive just above Sunset and La Cienega.

Kevin Goetz (20:34):

How incredible. When we come back, we're going to talk to Bob about his agency days really getting into what he was so known for, which are books. We'll be back in a moment. Listeners, the Motion Picture & Television Fund is a nonprofit charitable organization that supports working and retired members of the entertainment community. This wonderfully run organization offers assistance for living and aging with dignity and purpose in the areas of health and social services, including temporary financial assistance, case management, and residential living, and has been a crucial lifeline to thousands during and beyond critical times that our industry continues to experience. To learn more, visit mptf.com. Please join me in helping others in our industry during times of need. There are so many ways to offer support and get involved. Thank you. We're back with Bob Bookman, the book guy. Now, how many times has that conversation come up that your name is Bob Bookman and books was your thing?

Bob Bookman (21:55):

Well, actually, my family's original name was Buchmann, B-U-C-H-M-A-N-N. And my first German forebear came to Brooklyn in 1851 and by the third generation had changed it, Anglicized it to Bookman. But I mean, how prophetic. Yeah, I guess I ruptured my left Achilles tendon playing squash many, many years ago and the doctor who repaired its name was Barry Braker. <laugh> I mean, sometimes you're just born, I guess. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Kevin Goetz (22:23):

Totally. I want to ask you, as a child, were you an insatiable reader?

Bob Bookman (22:29):

Yes.

Kevin Goetz (22:31):

You were.

*Bob Bookman (22:32):

Although interestingly, and my father told me this because I didn't remember it when I was in sixth grade, I was obsessed with comic books. And my mother was very upset and went to my father and says, "You've got to do something. Bob's only reading comic books." And my dad said, "He's reading."

Kevin Goetz (22:48):

Oh, it's great. Yeah.

Bob Bookman (22:50):

Yes. Yeah. 

Kevin Goetz (22:51):

Let's be grateful. Your mother was a ballbuster.

Bob Bookman (22:54):

That would be one description.

Kevin Goetz (22:55):

I have a similar experience. Yeah. Loved my mother deeply. Yeah. My mother was a great intellect. Yeah. You know? And my father was more the EQ guy. You know, the charming guy. And so he - 

Bob Bookman (23:08):

Well, my mother was charming if she wanted... Believe me, if you weren't in the family, she was charming. <laugh>

Kevin Goetz (23:14):

Okay. How do you become this guy known for, probably more than anyone, the guy to go to for book representation?

*Bob Bookman (23:24):

The answer is Marvin Josephson. So Marvin Josephson owned the agency and I started, as I said, November 72. In December 74, Marvin acquired CMA. And ironically, they were both publicly held companies and there wasn't another publicly held entertainment company until William Morris because I think because too much had to be disclosed. So we are now ICM and we have this very powerful motion picture department because of the former CMA motion to picture department, right? And I've been doing, by the way, very, very well in television packaging. I go to see Marvin and I say, "I've given you 100% of my brain and none of my heart because my heart is in motion pictures. I want you to make me an agent in the motion picture department." He said, "Well, I have a big problem with that. " I said, "What's that? " He said, "You don't have any clients, because in television packaging, we were representing companies." In those days, there really was a wall separating film and television. So writers, for example, in television weren't writers in film. There were a couple of exceptions, but for the most part.

Kevin Goetz (24:33):

Danny Thomas and all those people. Oh, yeah. Desi Arnaz and -

Bob Bookman (24:36):

Yeah.

Kevin Goetz (24:36):

I Mean, they had huge production companies, right? 

Bob Bookman (24:37):

Huge. Yeah.

Kevin Goetz (24:39):

And that's what you would package by the way, correct?

*Bob Bookman (24:40):

Right. Okay. So you'd run projects through them and then sell them to the networks and there were only three networks. So what happened was he said, "You don't have any clients and the former CMA, motion picture agents, they're sharks, they'll leave you alive. I can't do that to you. " And I told sort of a white-ish lie. I said, "Well, you know, I may have an opportunity to do this somewhere else and I really don't want to leave ICM." He said, "Let me give it a thought and I'll come back to you. " He came back a week later and gave me the greatest opportunity of my entire career. He said, "You know, the New York Publications Department, which by the way, was all women, and with the exception of Lynn Nesbit, who was in her mid - 30s and had come in laterally, all were in their 60s and 70s because they were the former MCA -

Kevin Goetz (25:24):

White space. Oh my God. 

Bob Bookman (25:25):

So he said, You know, we represent some of the greatest writers in the world for publishing and we've never had a rational -

Kevin Goetz (25:34):

Like a subrights.

Bob Bookman (25:35):

Exactly. And I'm giving you that -

Kevin Goetz (25:37):

Subsidiary rights folks.

*Bob Bookman (25:38):

Yeah. I'm giving you that opportunity, that franchise, and I also want you to have your own screenwriter and director clients. So who did this mean? Audrey Wood had discovered Tennessee Williams and all his early plays were dedicated to her. Phyllis Jackson represented Ian Fleming and Dr. Seuss. I think when they sold the agency to CAA, Dr. Seuss was still one of the first or second highest income earners. Geisel. Yeah, Ted Geisel. And then the third was Monica McCall, who among other people represented Graham Greene. In fact, I sold Graham Greene's The Human Factor to Otto Preminger. 

Kevin Goetz (26:16):

You worked with these women?

Bob Bookman (26:17):

Yes, they were. 

Kevin Goetz (26:18):

They were your mentors?

Bob Bookman (26:20):

Yes. And then Kay Brown, who, you know, had been David O. Selznick story editor and I think the person who actually read Gone with the Wind and she represented - 

Kevin Goetz (26:29):

My head is spinning, Bob.

Bob Bookman (26:30):

Well, this is the opportunity I had. She represent the Margaret Mitchell estate and Arthur Miller, but then Lynn Nesbit, who had come in now. Lynn was then, I'm going to say in her mid 30s, represented many of those writers you said. Michael Crichton, Tom Wolfe, Joe Eszterhas.

Kevin Goetz (26:45):

Is Lynn still working?

Bob Bookman (26:46):

Yes. Hard.

Kevin Goetz (26:48):

So you and Lynn are still really super close?

Bob Bookman (26:49):

Oh yeah, we talk all the time. 

Kevin Goetz (26:51):

You must be like besties because you've been

Bob Bookman (26:52):

Yeah, I see her whenever I'm in New York. 

Kevin Goetz (26:55):

Isn't that the greatest?

Bob Bookman (26:55):

So that was the franchise I suddenly got. And it was at a time when material like that was suddenly becoming desirable.

Kevin Goetz (27:04):

Okay. I'm going to ask you some questions now about books. What makes a book cinematic?

*Bob Bookman (27:09):

Well, first of all, it's probably not a great book because great books tend to involve things inside the protagonist's head as opposed to actions that take place outside. And if you look at what you consider a great book that's been made into a movie, you know, the obvious ones, The Great Gatsby, whatever, they've never made great movies. Occasionally they'll make a very good movie. So the secret to me is finding a good book that has the potential to make a great movie.

Kevin Goetz (27:38):

Explain that a little bit more. Unpack that.

*Bob Bookman (27:40):

Okay. So first of all, there are different structures. People say, you know, God is in the details. I say God is in the structure. Does it break down into three acts? Because that's what movies are. Rarely is a successful movie, not three acts. And a great movie, oftentimes you don't see them unless you really look beneath the surface. Second thing is, does it have characters who have conflicts? Does it have characters who have problems? And third of all, I always like it. Is it taking you somewhere you've never been before?

Kevin Goetz (28:12):

Yeah, those are great.

Bob Bookman (28:13):

Right.

Kevin Goetz (28:13):

When reading a manuscript, what tells you there's a movie hidden inside of it?

Bob Bookman (28:17):

You know the famous Potter Stewart story? No. Potter Stewart was a associate justice of the Supreme Court put on the court by Eisenhower. And Potter Stewart was famous for writing the first big obscenity decisions that widened the First Amendment. And a journalist, because in those days they were more approachable by journalists said, "Mr. Justice Stewart, how do you define obscenity?" And his famous response was, "I know it when I see it. " Ooh. But what does I know it when I see it means? It means you have a history of reading, it has a history of critical thinking. It's like, how do you say to a great musician or a great composer, how do you compose? Bob Dylan's book, its insightfulness about his creative process. Same with the Keith Richards biography with -

Kevin Goetz (29:03):

But it's really alchemy.

Bob Bookman (29:05):

Yes

Kevin Goetz (29:05):

Really non -

Bob Bookman (29:07):

DNA.

Kevin Goetz (29:08):

Yeah, like you can't really -

Bob Bookman (29:09):

No, you can't. 

Kevin Goetz (29:10):

Put it into words. What's the biggest mistake filmmakers make when adapting a book?

*Bob Bookman (29:15):

I think the biggest mistake they make when adapting a book is not being able to get away from what the book is and getting the spirit of it as the movie. And I'll give you the greatest example I can give you from the writer's side and I'm still in awe of it and that's John Irving and The Cider House Rules.

Kevin Goetz (29:35):

One of my favorites, and wasn't it Lasse Hallström?

Bob Bookman (29:38):

Yes, it was.

Kevin Goetz (29:39):

Which I thought was terrific.

*Bob Bookman (29:41):

But here's the thing, John won the Oscar for best adapted screenplay, but that isn't even the point. If you look at that book and you look at the script - I never read the book, yeah. Well, the decisions he had to make, compressing time, compressing characters, and making what was a great book into a great script. I am just totally - 

Kevin Goetz (30:02):

Hold on. He wrote the book?

Bob Bookman (30:03):

Yes.

Kevin Goetz (30:04):

And he adapted the screenplay.

Bob Bookman (30:05):

And he won an Oscar.

Kevin Goetz (30:06):

Has that ever happened?

Bob Bookman (30:08):

I'm not sure.

Kevin Goetz (30:09):

I know. That's a fabulous example. I'm wondering, and we should do some research on this to find out how many really successful source writers, you know, actually wrote their screenplay successfully. 'Cause I think that objectivity is absolutely paramount.

Bob Bookman (30:24):

Actually, it leads into a good point of view. I represented a lot of authors who said, "I want to write the screenplay." And I would say, "Okay, done. I'll make it happen."

Kevin Goetz (30:36):

Psychology.

Bob Bookman (30:37):

Right. Exactly. Learn from my father. All right, so here's what you need to know. They don't want you to write the screenplay and they're going to accept as a cost of buying your book that you will. Whatever money they are giving you, they would've rather spent elsewhere. Now, you are not going to succeed in the first draft so they're going to want to replace you. Who are they going to replace you with? Well, you would hope an A - list writer, but under the WGA credit rules, almost inevitably, any second writer will get second position credit to your credit. 

Kevin Goetz (31:11):

Or no credit.

Bob Bookman (31:12):

They would literally without exception say... Oh, and I say, "And you want to be a screenwriter? Write a screenplay. Just don't adapt your own book." And they always went along with that.

Kevin Goetz (31:21):

How about John Irving? Why didn't he?

Bob Bookman (31:23):

Because John had written that right before I represented him. I signed him when that movie was out.

Kevin Goetz (31:29):

Here's what was brilliant about John doing that and why he might have been the exception, because he was able to separate and not be precious - Yes. About his book. And I've never met the man. No. I revere him. But I can tell you that had to be the answer. I was just going to ask you when does honoring the source material become a liability?

*Bob Bookman (31:50):

Well, I think if you become, as I say, so wedded to it that you can't divorce yourself from the letter of the law to the spirit of the law, because a book is a book and a screenplay’s a screenplay.

Kevin Goetz (32:02):

Oh, God bless you. I want to say that this is one of the most important conversations I have with filmmakers in my line of work because they will often test a movie that was based on a book. And the filmmaker feels a certain kind of either responsibility or just a sense of obligation to be true to the book.

Bob Bookman (32:26):

Or maybe even to be judged.

Kevin Goetz (32:27):

Exactly.

Bob Bookman (32:29):

Yeah.

Kevin Goetz (32:29):

Yet, it's a different medium.

Bob Bookman (32:31):

Right. 100%.

Kevin Goetz (32:32):

It's a different medium. Right. It needs to be dealt with differently. Right. As you said, and I love what you said. And I wasn't sure I was going to get that response because what you're doing when you're reading is you're seeing the potential of something that has moved you in some way. Right. Who are the greatest adapters of books that you've worked with in your career? Yeah. And I'd like to ask who are you excited about coming up right now?

*Bob Bookman (33:00):

Steve Zaillian obviously is, you know, a great adapter. You know, he just - Why? I mean, again, it is about getting into the essence and spirit of something and putting it into your own creative words.

Kevin Goetz (33:14):

What about if it's a famous book that has been read? The Da Vinci Code comes to mind.

Bob Bookman (33:19):

Yeah, but The Da Vinci Code to me is commerce. So what?

Kevin Goetz (33:23):

Are most movies better than the source material?

Bob Bookman (33:26):

There's no connection.

Kevin Goetz (33:27):

What is the best adaptation, three best, that you've ever seen, from a book to a movie?

*Bob Bookman (33:32):

Well, I would say The Silence of the Lambs was a brilliant adaptation.

Kevin Goetz (33:37):

What else?

*Bob Bookman (33:37):

A Beautiful Mind was a really great adaptation.

Kevin Goetz (33:40):

Akiva.

*Bob Bookman (33:41):

Yeah. And maybe something that I wasn't involved with, for example, I would say To Have and Have Not.

Kevin Goetz (33:48):

Ooh, I wasn't expecting that. Wow.

Bob Bookman (33:50):

There's a great story behind that. 

Kevin Goetz (33:52):

I'd love to hear it.

Bob Bookman (33:53):

The story is Ernest Hemingway and Howard Hawkss used to go hunting together and one day Howard Hawks said to Ernest Hemingway, "You know, I bet I could make a great movie out of your worst book." And he said, "What's my worst book?" He said To Have and Have Not. He said, "You know, you're probably right. I was starving for money and I wrote it just for the money." And apparently I never read ha - To Have and Have Not, but if you read the book, it's got the same characters, it's got the same location, but either the story of one ends where the next one begins or vice versa.

Kevin Goetz (34:25):

Yeah.

Bob Bookman (34:26):

I mean, to me, if you said to me, "Who is the single greatest American director of the sound era?" I would say Howard Hawks without a moment's hesitation.

Kevin Goetz (34:33):

Are you serious?

Bob Bookman (34:34):

Absolutely. Name a genre he didn't make a great movie yet.

Kevin Goetz (34:38):

Well, I know, but there's so many great -

Bob Bookman (34:39):

Who's greater than Howard Hawks?

Kevin Goetz (34:41):

Oh boy.

Bob Bookman (34:42):

Aha. We turn the tables. 

Kevin Goetz (34:44):

I mean, Billy Wilder? Not greater, as good as.

Bob Bookman (34:46):

No. I loved all knew -

Kevin Goetz (34:48):

He also worked in multiple genres.

Bob Bookman (34:50):

Yeah, but it's funny, and Andrew Sarris's The American Cinema, he put either lightly likable or less than meets the eye, Billy Wilder, and it was the only entry that he ever changed his mind about and said he belonged to the Pantheon.

Kevin Goetz (35:05):

George Stevens.

Bob Bookman (35:06):

No, please. George Stevens, you have to divide his career between when he made the documentaries during World War II and before because the movies afterwards are so dark to me as the ones - Oh, that's interesting. Before so light. No, I'm not a big George Stevens fan. I'm a big Raoul Walsh fan. Yep. I'm a big Frank Capra fan. I'm a William Wellman fan.

Kevin Goetz (35:28):

John Ford?

Bob Bookman (35:28):

Too much Irish humor. Mm-hmm. A few exceptions. But okay, here's a great John Ford question. Between the Iron Horse in 1926 and my darling Clementine in 1946, how many movies did John "I Make Westerns" Ford make that were Westerns?

Kevin Goetz (35:47):

Oh boy, I would say pre-46, I don't know, 12. One – Stagecoach. He's won four Academy Awards. Yeah. Yeah. I hear he was a tough guy.

Bob Bookman (36:01):

I, I, I actually never met him.

Kevin Goetz (36:03):

RJ Wagner, who was my guest on the podcast, talks about how he really got into a fight with him.

Bob Bookman (36:08):

Yeah.

Kevin Goetz (36:09):

You know, like he - 

Bob Bookman (36:09):

That sounds like John.

Kevin Goetz (36:10):

Yeah. 

Bob Bookman (36:11):

But I'll tell you a, a story. Someone that I was sort of raised not to like was John Wayne. And when I was in my -

Kevin Goetz (36:19):

Because of his politics or what?

*Bob Bookman (36:20):

Yeah, just general impression. So when I was my second summer, as I told you of law school, I clerked for a, then the number one entertainment law firm here, which was Captain Livingston, Goodwin, Berkowitz, and Selvan. It later imploded. I mean, to give you an idea how long ago this was, Skip Brittanham was an associate. <laugh> Anyway, so when you're a summer intern, they have events to make it seem like practicing law is fun. So one of the events was going out to Warner Brothers to see Frank Wells, who was then head of business affairs, and then going on a set. And the set we went on was the Cowboys, which Mark Rydell was directing with John Wayne. And I'm thinking, I want to invite John Wayne to come to Yale, right? And I wait my moment. Everybody else is cowering. I wait my moment and I go over. You know what John Wayne is doing? He's looking at the photographs of the family of one of the bottom members of the crew, you know, a gaffer or whatever and acting like this guy was the only person in the world. It so changed my mind about John Wayne for the rest of my life, his life.

Kevin Goetz (37:29):

One of my favorite adapters of screenplays was Alvin Sargent.

Bob Bookman (37:33):

Oh yeah. Alvin, fantastic.

Kevin Goetz (37:35):

He was great. But I want to ask you a few things, mention a few names and just sort of give me initial impressions.

Bob Bookman (37:41):

Yeah.

Kevin Goetz (37:41):

Michael Crichton.

*Bob Bookman (37:43):

One of a kind saw ahead but not too far ahead of what was coming next and was able to express it in a way that people love to read.

Kevin Goetz (37:54):

Jonathan Demme?

Bob Bookman (37:56):

Jonathan Demme started out in PR and I find the people that started out in PR often treated beneath them badly, which -

Kevin Goetz (38:05):

Wait, what? They often what?

Bob Bookman (38:06):

Treated people beneath them badly. Oh. And Jonathan Demme was actually was very tough. He put me and Rick Nicita in The Silence of the Lambs and he was a great filmmaker. 

Kevin Goetz (38:17):

What do you mean he put you in it?

Bob Bookman (38:18):

We're in it.

Kevin Goetz (38:19):

He did?

Bob Bookman (38:20):

Yes. The big scene when the limousine pulls up with Senator Martin coming out to meet with Dr. Lecter coming off the plane, right? So what happens is Ron Vaughter, who's the Justice Department official, has two assistants, me and Rick. Oh, that's great. Rick's the one that hands over the offer for his relaxed confinement and I'm the one that when he starts describing Buffalo Bill takes notes in the notebook.

Kevin Goetz (38:45):

Cameron Crowe.

*Bob Bookman (38:46):

Cameron Crowe, especially in the early days was just amazing. He always was reinventing himself until he wasn't.

Kevin Goetz (38:54):

Why? 

Bob Bookman (38:55):

I think because in some way he always was this young person. And when he became an older person, there was a conflict between actually being an older person and thinking like a younger person.

Kevin Goetz (39:07):

It's very interesting. I find him so insightful and such a great talent.

Bob Bookman (39:13):

Yeah, but you're not talking about the last few films.

Kevin Goetz (39:16):

Hmm, interesting. Tom Stoppard.

Bob Bookman (39:19):

One of the greatest human beings I've ever met, he was so humble, he was so funny, he was so open. 

Kevin Goetz (39:26):

There's a coldness to his work.

*Bob Bookman (39:27):

Only up till the real thing, because remember, that was the criticism. He's a genius, as a writer, but doesn't write for the human heart. He basically said, "I'll show you, " with the real thing and then later with Arcadia. Paul Greengrass. Paul Greengrass to me is a really good example of how the British do things different from us. Paul Greengrass started as a researcher and went step by step by step by step until, I'm going to say he was 40 directing his first film as opposed to an American in that position after they sold their first screenplay, they detached themselves to direct the next one.

Kevin Goetz (40:01):

People are not reading anymore, you know this. It's become a lost art in many, many ways. I mean, there, I'm talking about in general, I'm not talking - 

Bob Bookman (40:11):

I'm talking about our business. How about a business driven by the written word in which people don't read? 

Kevin Goetz (40:18):

Well, that's interesting, but I wasn't even going there.

Bob Bookman (40:19):

There No, that's... 

Kevin Goetz (40:20):

Saying general public. What are we going to do about source material?

Bob Bookman (40:24):

We got AI to provide it.

Kevin Goetz (40:27):

He's winking at me, folks. <laugh> But don't wink.

Bob Bookman (40:29):

AI is an algorithm. It is not a human being so it can produce a facsimile of let's say a novel, but it can't reflect the human heart in that novel and let me know when AI does irony.

Kevin Goetz (40:43):

That's interesting, probably in a couple of years Yeah. Because it learns how to - How to understand - Well, understand. How to get to irony. It's not really feeling - I can only hope you're wrong <laugh>. I know. So do I, my friend. Yeah. So do I. Now, I want to though ask you about this movie that recently opened Backrooms, which was based on a meme Yeah. Which then became a YouTube series and Backrooms opened hugely. It was huge. I guess my question is, what do we look forward to in five years in terms of books and adaptations, is it something that will still be as vibrant as necessary? You know, you - I kind of know the answer, but - 

Bob Bookman (41:28):

Kevin, you didn't tell me to bring my crystal ball. I mean, five years ago, if someone said to you the business would be what it is today, you wouldn't believe it.

Kevin Goetz (41:35):

Yes, I would have.

Bob Bookman (41:36):

Okay.

Kevin Goetz (41:37):

Five years ago, I would have. Really? But not necessarily 10 years ago. But five years ago I knew it. No, I'm not being cheeky. No, no, no, no, no. I know you're not saying - 'Cause I'm in the business of trying to be a forecaster of that. I think that audiences are craving originality.

*Bob Bookman (41:53):

I agree. But originality can be based on IP. Exactly. It can't be based on sequels and remakes - That's right. Of existing IP.

Kevin Goetz (42:01):

And, but somebody today, it was my trainer, Grinnell said to me, "Can we just do without studios?" And I said, "No. I just answered it impulsively." No. No,

Bob Bookman (42:10):

No.

Kevin Goetz (42:10):

And I said, "And studios cannot afford to do that many original movies because of their overhead and yet they are too important a part of the ecosystem of this business." And for every back room's an Obsession, we still have to remember there are hundreds that fail and people don't want to see them.

Bob Bookman (42:29):

Absolutely. No. And forget, don't want to see them.

Kevin Goetz (42:30):

So we have to be 

Bob Bookman (42:31):

No one wants to distribute them. 

Kevin Goetz (42:31):

Exactly. So we can't make these proclamations Right. Of people want, of course people want original material, but they don't

Bob Bookman (42:38):

Know it until they see it. 

Kevin Goetz (42:39):

Know it until they see it. Yeah, exactly.

Bob Bookman (42:41):

But what I was going to say to you is I'm involved with a partnership called V42 that was started by a brilliant guy named Miles Romney and Miles's grandfather was George Romney and his uncle once or twice removed his Mitt and the greatest thing about him to me is when he was 18 or so, he renounced Mormonism and married a Jewish woman and became Jewish.

Kevin Goetz (43:04):

Wow.

Bob Bookman (43:04):

Far more observant than I am, which as I say to him is getting over an extremely low bar. 

Kevin Goetz (43:11):

I don't think I've ever heard a Mormon becoming Jewish.

*Bob Bookman (43:12):

He's just extraordinary. Anyway, there are four of us in the partnership. The goal of our company is to raise money so we can finance and co-finance and then produce ourselves $10 million and under films. And we have our first film finished and it's been accepted at Toronto.

Kevin Goetz (43:30):

Fantastic name?

Bob Bookman (43:31):

The Life and Deaths of Wilson Shedd, and Tim Blake Nelson wrote and directed it. So I think that to me is my vision of the future and getting involved because I think low budget films are going to be the way to go with obvious exceptions. I

Kevin Goetz (43:47):

Think the V becomes vision

Bob Bookman (43:49):

Or victory.

Kevin Goetz (43:51):

There we go. Bob Bookman, thank you so much for joining me here today and for shedding so many stories and nuance about things that I never knew about and I know our listeners are going to be so excited to uncover. I want to say please leave your brain to the Academy Museum - <laugh>... Because there is so much knowledge in there and we thank you so much.

Bob Bookman (44:17):

Well, Kevin, thank you so much for including me. It was really an honor to be a guest.

Kevin Goetz (44:25):

To our listeners, I hope you enjoyed this conversation. For more insights into filmmaking, audience testing, and the business of Hollywood, I invite you to check out my books, Audienceology, and How to Score in Hollywood. You can also follow me on my social media. Next time on Don't Kill the Messenger, I'll welcome two of the industry's leading distribution executives, Universal's Jim Orr, and Angel Studios' Brandon Purdie. Until then, I'm Kevin Goetz. And to you, our listeners, I appreciate you being part of the movie-making process. Your opinions matter.

Host: Kevin Goetz
Guest: Bob Bookman
Producer: Kari Campano
Writers: Kevin Goetz, Darlene Hayman, and Kari Campano
Audio Engineer: Gary Forbes (DG Entertainment)