Podcast: Don't Kill the Messenger with Movie Research Expert Kevin Goetz
Guest: Lauren Shuler Donner

Interview Transcript:

Announcer (00:03):

From script to screen, every film is brought to life by visionary creatives and executives all sharing one mission to captivate the audience. Hosted by award-winning movie strategist Kevin Goetz, our podcast, Don't Kill the Messenger, offers a filmmaking masterclass through intimate conversations with Hollywood's most influential voices. And now, your host, Kevin Goetz.

Kevin Goetz (00:29):

In Hollywood, the role of a producer is not only about getting the movie made, it's also about producing the film once it's already in motion. Protecting the story, protecting the emotional core while still making a movie commercial, protecting the filmmaker's vision, and protecting the actors bringing it to life. My guest today built a career doing exactly that. Lauren Shuler Donner is one of the most influential and adaptable producers of the modern Hollywood era. Her films have grossed billions worldwide and she has repeatedly reinvented herself ahead of where both audiences and the industry were headed. From helping usher in the youth-driven films of the '80s, to producing prestige dramas and commercial hits, to becoming one of the key architects of the modern superhero era with X-Men years before Marvel became Marvel, Lauren has consistently shaped mainstream filmmaking across generations. She's also a longtime philanthropist and industry advocate whose latest Broadway production, The Lost Boys, is already one of the season's most talked-about new musicals.

(01:42):

Lauren, I cannot tell you what a pleasure and an honor it is to have you here today.

Lauren Shuler Donner (01:47):

Thank you, Kevin. And it's an honor to be here.

Kevin Goetz (01:50):

We go back some years. Yes, we do. I've been doing it for 40 years and I remember when I wanted to produce my first movie, there were two producers that I went to. The second was David Permut. The first was Lauren Shuler Donner. And you were extremely encouraging and I don't remember what the project was at the time, but I just envisioned and tried to manifest working with you at that time. I found you so intense and serious and professional but kind and generous and also beautiful on top of that.

Lauren Shuler Donner (02:29):

Aw, thank you. I hope I gave you good advice. <laugh>

Kevin Goetz (02:32):

You did. And we should call out right away, let's get it out of the way. Yeah. Your sister, Barbara Shuler, who was Barbara Gross when I met her - mm-hmm. Was for years at Warner Brothers.

Lauren Shuler Donner (02:43):

Right. International Research. I always though she was the key. Their international grosses were always higher than everybody's. And I always though it was Barbara because they sent her to all the territories.

Kevin Goetz (02:54):

All the territories.

Lauren Shuler Donner (02:54):

And she would figure out who was the audience and how to get to them.

Kevin Goetz (02:58):

And if I recall, she really loved qualitative research.

Lauren Shuler Donner (03:03):

Yes.

Kevin Goetz (03:04):

She loved focus groups, didn't she?

Lauren Shuler Donner (03:05):

She did, yes.

Kevin Goetz (03:06):

And she had great relationships because when I asked Barbara, I was going abroad for the first time for business, and I asked Barbara to set meetings up for me at the Warner Brothers offices, which she happily did. Mm-hmm. They just revered her.

Lauren Shuler Donner (03:19):

Yeah. Good.

Kevin Goetz (03:20):

So call out to you, Barbara. We love you.

Lauren Shuler Donner (03:22):

Yeah. That's great.

Kevin Goetz (03:23):

So the two of you grew up in Cleveland.

Lauren Shuler Donner (03:25):

Yep.

Kevin Goetz (03:26):

What was it like in the early years of the two of you growing up? Was it a happy childhood?

Lauren Shuler Donner (03:30):

Yeah, it was. You know, it was the Midwest. We were very different as most siblings are. So I had my group of friends and she had hers, but I would say yes, we had a pretty good childhood.

Kevin Goetz (03:42):

What was your primary interest and what was hers? I'm just curious.

Lauren Shuler Donner (03:45):

As a child?

Kevin Goetz (03:45):

Yeah.

Lauren Shuler Donner (03:47):

I read a lot. But I had a lot of friends, and I, so- So you were social? I would play a lot. I was very social.

Kevin Goetz (03:51):

Was she more sort of internal

Lauren Shuler Donner (03:53):

Or in - Yes. She was more internal. Yes.

Kevin Goetz (03:56):

Did you have a movie that influenced you as a kid?

Lauren Shuler Donner (03:59):

No, I went to a lot of movies with my cousin.

Kevin Goetz (04:02):

Tell me about what you saw that you remember, like -

Lauren Shuler Donner (04:05):

I tell you what I'm, because I'm old. So I remember the Abbott and Costello movies when I was really young. And I remember Jerry Lewis and Dean Martin. Great movie. I remember just reenacting the movies with my cousin.

Kevin Goetz (04:16):

Were you a good student?

Lauren Shuler Donner (04:17):

I was not a great student. I am ADD. So I was good in what I liked. I was very good in anything that required story. I was good in English and social studies. Were you a good writer? I'm okay.

Kevin Goetz (04:29):

But you liked reading?

Lauren Shuler Donner (04:30):

Yeah. I loved reading. And I can write. I've just, you know, there's so many better writers.

Kevin Goetz (04:35):

So what gets the girl who is from Cleveland to get into the business? 

Lauren Shuler Donner (04:42):

I was in editing first.

Kevin Goetz (04:44):

Oh, you were editing before even in the camera department?

Lauren Shuler Donner (04:46):

Briefly, yes. I didn't know anybody in Hollywood. I'm from Cleveland, Ohio. I went to school in the East and then came out. 

Kevin Goetz (04:52):

What school did you go to?

Lauren Shuler Donner (04:53):

Boston University.

Kevin Goetz (04:54):

Ah. What'd you major in?

Lauren Shuler Donner (04:56):

The first two years general. Second two years, I transferred to the film school and majored in film.

Kevin Goetz (05:01):

And so what got you interested in editing and then camera work?

*Lauren Shuler Donner (05:06):

I knocked on doors, you know, and one of the - 

Kevin Goetz (05:08):

But women didn't do that then. I remember -

Lauren Shuler Donner (05:09):

I didn't know that. Dee Dee Allen. Of course. I love Dee Dee Allen. 

Kevin Goetz (05:12):

She was on a lot, right?

Lauren Shuler Donner (05:13):

Yeah, she was great. And also, Verna Fields was great. I eventually ended up at Motown. And we all used to hang out in her office. That was the first time I met Spielberg. She had pinball machines.

Kevin Goetz (05:24):

You know, Suzanne de Passe was a guest on the show.

Lauren Shuler Donner (05:26):

Oh, I love Suzanne. We didn't love each other then.

Kevin Goetz (05:28):

Oh. But - Did you know each other then?

Lauren Shuler Donner (05:31):

It was very strange the way Motown was. The record company was in Hollywood. We were based at Universal. They really were not entwined. And there was competition. So when I was there, they were making The Wiz. So Rob was in New York. Mm-hmm. And I met Barry Gordy when both of us went to see the dailies of Lena Horne, because who didn't wanna see Lena Horne singing? Oh. You know, so I went to see some of those and, and he was there. And then I went to see, of course, Michael.

Kevin Goetz (06:00):

So she was inducted into the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame.

Lauren Shuler Donner (06:03):

Absolutely good for her. 

Kevin Goetz (06:04):

She got very emotional on the show when she talked about it. Aw. Which kinda really moved me. So you knock on doors.

*Lauren Shuler Donner (06:10):

And one of the places was a medical and educational company. They needed an assistant editor basically to cut negative, which we don't do anymore. Ended up at NBC, went in, they said, "We'll take your resume." I was like, "You know, I'm sick of this. Everybody's taking my resume. Can I see somebody?" And they let me see this woman. Four or five months later after I'm editing six months, I get a call from this woman. She goes, "We have something called Vacation Relief. Would you like to do it? " I said, "Sure." Not knowing what it is. I was a token woman, three women, 300 men. And it's what it sounds like. When the people go away on vacations, we're there to pitch in. So I moved around, learned all this stuff about videotape. And finally, I said, "I would like to be camera because I know that." And I knew that I could never get on any other big shows. So I moved to the local news and I shot the news and I shot all this stuff and then I left and I freelanced. And I shot everything from game shows to sitcoms to Rolling Stones concerts.

Kevin Goetz (07:14):

Locally in Cleveland area?

Lauren Shuler Donner (07:15):

No, no. All in LA.

Kevin Goetz (07:17):

Oh, so what got you to LA?

Lauren Shuler Donner (07:19):

I took a plane. <laugh>

Kevin Goetz (07:20):

Wait, uh, there's a funny line I gotta just tell you. Bette Davis, of course, rumored to have said to this young starlet who wanted so desperately to be a star, "Miss Davis, Ms. Davis, how do I get to Hollywood?" And she says, "Take Fountain." Which is, of course, a major thoroughfare in LA. <laugh>

Lauren Shuler Donner (07:40):

Do you know her great one about Now Voyager?

Kevin Goetz (07:42):

Tell me.

*Lauren Shuler Donner (07:43):

All Right. So Max Steiner was a composer that everybody knew and he, his music, you were very aware of it. Yeah. It was very melodic. So now Bette Davis is in Now Voyager. She starts with a little mouse of a woman under her mother's thumb. She goes away on a voyage in the sea and she meets Claude Rains and they fall in love and she comes back and she's a strong woman. So the shot was to be at the top of the stairs and she will walk down the stairs. She says to the director, "Is Max Steiner going to score this? " And the director says, "Yes." And she says, "Either Max Steiner is gonna come down the stairs or I'm gonna come down the stairs, but we are not going down together." <laugh>

Kevin Goetz (08:23):

Oh, that trumps my fountain. <laugh> Oh, Lord, that's funny.

Lauren Shuler Donner (08:28):

So -

Kevin Goetz (08:29):

All right. So how did you get to Hollywood?

Lauren Shuler Donner (08:31):

I had done really well in school in Major Health.

Kevin Goetz (08:33):

JWA. <laugh> DWA. Pan-Am. <laugh>

Lauren Shuler Donner (08:38):

I knew I wanted to be in the film business from college. And I stayed, though, in Martha's Vineyard, which I loved. And my sister had moved to LA, she and her husband.

Kevin Goetz (08:48):

Oh, she had already moved.

Lauren Shuler Donner (08:49):

And she wrote me a letter and said, "The film business is out here. What are you doing?"

Kevin Goetz (08:53):

Wait a minute. She wrote you a what? A letter?

Lauren Shuler Donner (08:56):

Letter, yeah, way back when.

Kevin Goetz (08:57):

They used to do letters.

Lauren Shuler Donner (08:58):

Yeah. It was amazing. You get them, open them up for your mailbox. Ooh, from my sister. So you know what? It was just what I needed. She kicked me in the butt. I came out and knocked on doors.

Kevin Goetz (09:10):

When did you get into producing or how did you get into producing?

Lauren Shuler Donner (09:13):

So I got into producing. I was the only woman freelancing.

Kevin Goetz (09:17):

In the Guild, by the way.

*Lauren Shuler Donner (09:19):

Yeah. A lot of people knew me. So I was able to transition to become an associate producer in television. Then I was in a car accident and I was out for months. I had a friend who knew Nancy Myers, who was the creative executive at Motown before she started writing and directing. She was leaving, my friend told me. So I went to Motown. They gave me a script. I gave them back five pages of constructive criticism.

Kevin Goetz (09:46):

And?

Lauren Shuler Donner (09:47):

And they said, "This is good. You're hired." And that script was, they got as Friday. And I became an associate producer on it.

Kevin Goetz (09:53):

Because you gave them such good feedback.

Lauren Shuler Donner (09:55):

'Cause, yeah. So I came in, took her job as a creative consultant. Wow. So then I was there for a while and eventually I went on my own. And at Motown, I produced a movie for television that Joel Schumacher wrote and directed. There was a woman at NBC that said, "Joel, if you write a good script, I'll let you direct it. " Her name was Dion Barkley. So Joel and I produced this little movie called Amateur Night at the Dixie Bar and Grill, which was really well received, Tom - TV movie? Yeah. Tom Shale gave it, like, one of the 10 best movies ever made for television. It was great.

Kevin Goetz (10:28):

And was this one of his first directorial?

Lauren Shuler Donner (10:30):

Yeah. 

Kevin Goetz (10:30):

'Cause he was a production designer, correct?

Lauren Shuler Donner (10:32):

Yes. Yes. Yes. And a very good one. Yes.

Kevin Goetz (10:35):

And his movies all have a certain kind of -

Lauren Shuler Donner (10:36):

Yes. Flare and look and design. 

Kevin Goetz (10:39):

Did you produce Lost Boys?

Lauren Shuler Donner (10:40):

Yes, my company did. Yes, absolutely. That was the first movie I ever worked on. You cannot make it. Really? I said, "We will not make this movie unless Joel Schumacher directs it. " Wow. 'Cause I knew he'd be good. 

Kevin Goetz (10:52):

What... Oh, it's the first movie you worked on. Wow. And you know what? And you were at the test, I' sure. And it was - Yes, I was. I'm gonna tell you where it was. Where? Studio City. Bookstar. You know, on Ventura Boulevard? And I tested it there. Oh, wow. And that is, I guess, the night I probably first met you. Yeah. And I was probably taking names of audience members coming in -

Lauren Shuler Donner (11:09):

Yeah.

Kevin Goetz (11:09):

On a clipboard.

Lauren Shuler Donner (11:10):

Huh.

Kevin Goetz (11:10):

You said that you made a call to, I think, John Hughes and it just brought up a memory in my mind when I was a little pisher coming up. One of my dearest friends was a guy called Jerry Panessa, who was a real mentor to me. And Jerry, he ran Michael Cimino's company and he ran Neil Diamond's company, and then he was an executive at UA. And I remember him telling me some 40 years ago, I said, I gave my script to Lauren Shuler Donner. He said something like, "Boy, is she driven? She gets stuff done. She called me on Christmas one year." <laugh>

Lauren Shuler Donner (11:46):

His name is very familiar. 

Kevin Goetz (11:47):

Christmas Eve or Christmas.

Lauren Shuler Donner (11:48):

Jerry Panessa is a really familiar name. 

Kevin Goetz (11:50):

Yeah, because he's a, he was a marvelous guy. And everyone liked Jerry. He was one of those guys that everyone liked. And his wife was Jodi Brockway who ran movies and minis at NBC, I believe. Yeah. Right? Anyway, Jerry's now passed away. But he told me that you called him on Christmas, and I said - I had a lot of Moxie. It's never left me that she wanted what she wanted. And I loved that. Yes. And I love that. I don't know what else to say. I so admired that. I'm like, no, that I thought took a pair of - <laugh>... You know, you know what. Yeah. Okay. So then you did the movie Mr. Mom, which really popped, right? So how did that transpire?

*Lauren Shuler Donner (12:29):

I read The National Lampoon and I read a story by a guy named John Hughes and I though, "This guy's funny." I somehow got his phone number. And we bonded on the phone. He's from Chicago. I'm from Cleveland. Our fathers have both gone bankrupt. We, we really sort of bonded on the phone. And he was in LA. He wrote a script called Senior Prom, which was made. And ABC had a motion picture department and he was writing something for them. I pitched him something he didn't wanna do, so I came under his movie and we talked every night. And one night he was telling me his wife, Nancy, was in Arizona and he was in charge of the boys and he was like a savant. He was like an idiot. I realized that he must have gone from either high school or college to Nancy and like never been on his own.And I was like on the floor laughing. And he said, "You know I have 80 pages of a script called Mr. Mom in a drawer. Would you like to read it? " I said, "Yeah, sure." And it was Mr. Mom. It needed work. And so I gave him notes and I had a 120-page fantastic script.

Kevin Goetz (13:34):

Who, who did, who did what studio did it?

Lauren Shuler Donner (13:36):

Well, it's a long story. We started at Paramount and like an idiot, I brought in Aaron Spelling because people were telling us it was a TV movie and we were afraid it wouldn't go as a feature.

Kevin Goetz (13:46):

So now it's encumbered.

Lauren Shuler Donner (13:47):

Not only that, but we had a director for it and Aaron decided he didn't like it. Michael Eisner said, "Aaron, you don't know what you're doing." I don't know what he said. But we then ran... I ran to Ned Tannen and Aaron ran to David Begelman, where it got set up. So we set it there and it was distributed by Fox.

Kevin Goetz (14:07):

That's interesting.

Lauren Shuler Donner (14:08):

It was really interesting because Fox -

Kevin Goetz (14:10):

So Fox bought it in turnaround or?

Lauren Shuler Donner (14:12):

No. Begelman's company financed it.

Kevin Goetz (14:15):

Ah, got it.

Lauren Shuler Donner (14:15):

And they gave it to Fox for Distribution. Got it. Fox had a, a movie with Michael Douglas called Star Chamber, which they thought 

Kevin Goetz (14:22):

That's a good movie.

Lauren Shuler Donner (14:23):

I, they though it would be their big movie and it wasn't. I flopped. So they moved... They were gonna just release us locally, you know? And in California and if it did well, we'll see. Right, right. So they put us and it did. We did well and they, and they put us right into the Star Chamber Theaters.

Kevin Goetz (14:38):

How did you cast Michael Keaton?

*Lauren Shuler Donner (14:40):

Laurie Perlman was an agent at CAA. John was writing it. We were developing it. And she came to my office and said, "I have this client you have to see. There's a movie called Night Shift." And I said, "Okay, great." I went to see it. And in the middle of the movie, I was l - I wanted to run out of there and get this guy. Wow. I, I said, "Oh my God, this is the guy from Mr. Mom." Wow. That's all.

Kevin Goetz (15:01):

Oh, that's great.

Lauren Shuler Donner (15:02):

Yeah.

Kevin Goetz (15:02):

So first you did -

Lauren Shuler Donner (15:04):

After amateur night at the Dixie Bar and Grill, Joel called me and said, "I have a script called Saint Elmo’s Fire. Will you produce it? " And we do that. Where'd he get the script?

Kevin Goetz (15:13):

H didn't write it. 

Lauren Shuler Donner (15:14):

He wrote it with Carl Kurlander. Yes, he did. They co-wrote it. Yes, yes, yes.

Kevin Goetz (15:18):

It was probably my favorite film that year, for sure.

Lauren Shuler Donner (15:21):

Yeah.

Kevin Goetz (15:22):

Yeah. And that soundtrack is still one of the best soundtracks ever. 

Lauren Shuler Donner (15:25):

It's a great soundtrack, but it's also a great score by David Foster. Because when we were done with the movie, Joel said, "You know, you know, we though it'd be an album, you know, song drop." Sure. And he said, "I think it's score. When I was growing up, we had scores that were on the radio from Exodus and Peyton Place and all these things. I remember I went to Columbia and I said, Can't we get this song on the radio? It's so gorgeous. So we had two songs. One was Man in Motion, which David - And it's Saint Almost Fire. And I said, David's gonna be on the radio squeezing Saint Almost Fire. It doesn't make any sense at all. <laugh> Man in Motion. David was involved with the Special Olympics. And that was what Man in Motion was.

Kevin Goetz (16:05):

You're kidding me.

Lauren Shuler Donner (16:06):

No, no. That's what it was.

Kevin Goetz (16:08):

So let me ask you about Richard. I know you were married to Mark Rosenberg, who was an executive at Warner Brothers when you first met Dick, but everyone who's been around long enough knows that Lauren Shuler and Dick Donner had one of the great love affairs of our industry. 

Lauren Shuler Donner (16:24):

I was super lucky.

Kevin Goetz (16:25):

And I really wanted to pause for a second to not only pay homage to Dick, but also to the two of you and the love that you had, had, the love that you probably still have. Yeah. And what was it like meeting him and coming into his orbit?

*Lauren Shuler Donner (16:43):

Well, I was a young producer. I had this great script, Ladyhawk. And when I went to meet him, you know, I was intimidated, but I really felt he was the right director for the movie. Again, I was driven. I just kept trying to think of what his problems would be and then I'm trying to think of what the answer would be. Because initially we were gonna shoot in Czechoslovakia, so I realized that Dick was a very social guy and, and liked to go out a lot. So I was thinking, where, where could he go out in Czechoslovakia and find that? You know, from that to what are the story holes in the script and how do we fix them and what are my solutions? So, you know -

Kevin Goetz (17:17):

So that was true supporting the director? 

Lauren Shuler Donner (17:19):

Yeah, it was truly supporting the director.

Kevin Goetz (17:21):

In every way. And also anticipating - Yes.

Lauren Shuler Donner (17:23):

What problems would be. What he needed, what the problems might be. Yes. Yes. And it's a long story, but eventually we took it to Warner's. They never really moved forward on it. The weekend after Private Benjamin opened to, you know, huge box office number, I went to the head of Warner's and said, "Can I have my script back? Because, you know, you have a, a hundred of them and this is like one of only five of mine and I think I can set it up elsewhere." So he nicely gave it back to me and turned around. 

Kevin Goetz (17:50):

Who was it that did that?

Lauren Shuler Donner (17:51):

Bob Shapiro. Okay. Then went over to lad company and they bought it.

Kevin Goetz (17:56):

And it was ultimately distributed through?

Lauren Shuler Donner (17:58):

Warner's Domestic Fox Foreign.

Kevin Goetz (18:00):

When did you first have the romantic spark with Dick? 

Lauren Shuler Donner (18:05):

You know, I didn't because I was married and also he was Dick Donner and also he was older than me.

Kevin Goetz (18:09):

So you do production, and you get through production. 

Lauren Shuler Donner (18:10):

Right when we start filming, I know there's a huge problem between my husband and I, because I haven't heard from, on day one of photography. But Dick has. So I call my husband. We ended up shooting in Italy. I said, "Get your ass over here." It was over. And I was devastated. 

Kevin Goetz (18:27):

You told Dick right away? 

Lauren Shuler Donner (18:28):

Yeah, because Dick and I had become very good friends.

Kevin Goetz (18:31):

Listeners, again, those of you who have produced and those who haven't need to understand the true relationship to a director and a producer, it's a bond like no other - Yeah. For that period of time. 'Cause you got there.

Lauren Shuler Donner (18:41):

You're in warfare. Same goal and you're - That's right. After it and... Yeah.

Kevin Goetz (18:45):

When did it happen though when you finally -

Lauren Shuler Donner (18:48):

About two weeks later. And

Kevin Goetz (18:49):

Then you were kind of inseparable after that. 

*Lauren Shuler Donner (18:52):

I was kind of pushing him away. Also, but I'll tell you what happened.Because I was such a young producer and he was Dick Donner, he had done Superman and The Omen. I said, "I just wanna hide this from everybody and let's just keep it a secret." And that was fun, you know? I mean, we were - Totally. We'd go to a location and we'd sneak into, you know, one of our rooms or we'd sneak into his office for a kiss.

Kevin Goetz (19:13):

I love it. Lauren, I love it.

Lauren Shuler Donner (19:13):

You know, it was... And, and that was thrilling. You betcha.

Kevin Goetz (19:16):

Yeah. And in Italy, no less.

Lauren Shuler Donner (19:17):

In Italy, no less.

Kevin Goetz (19:18):

Where in Italy?

Lauren Shuler Donner (19:19):

All over. From Laquila all the way up to Cortina and back down. 

Kevin Goetz (19:25):

I mean, that's a fantasy -

Lauren Shuler Donner (19:26):

All these little towns.

Kevin Goetz (19:26):

You realize that this is -

Lauren Shuler Donner (19:28):

Oh, it was incredible. Incredible. 

Kevin Goetz (19:29):

And how long were you together?

Lauren Shuler Donner (19:31):

38 years.

Kevin Goetz (19:32):

Wow. Yeah. When he pass, you were by his side. Everyone knew it.

Lauren Shuler Donner (19:38):

Yeah, sure.

Kevin Goetz (19:39):

He passes. How'd you get over it?

Lauren Shuler Donner (19:41):

With the help of friends. It took me a very long time. I was like in a fog. That's what happens when you lose a loved one. And ultimately, I went to London. I produced Secret Life of Bees and I produced a musical based on Secret Life of Bees.

Kevin Goetz (19:55):

You know I worked with you on that. I love that.

Lauren Shuler Donner (19:56):

Yeah. I do remember you work with me on that. Absolutely, I do. And I produced it with Joe Piccirillo, who I, you probably remember too.

Kevin Goetz (20:03):

Remember, I still see him in NYU.

Lauren Shuler Donner (20:05):

But after Dick died, we took the musical to London and the group, the experience, everything sort of lifted me out of my depression when I got home. Having done that, I came back to LA and I was able to move forward.

Kevin Goetz (20:21):

Who were your friends that really helped you navigate that tough time?

Lauren Shuler Donner (20:25):

Carol Daly. Linda Resnick is a really close friend of mine. Marjorie Walsh.

Kevin Goetz (20:30):

I know Sherry was there too, right?

Lauren Shuler Donner (20:32):

Sherry. Oh my gosh. Sherry. Definitely Sherry. Yes. And I have a really close girlfriend who's not in the business. She used to be named Shelly Hochran, and she helped me. Everybody helped.

Kevin Goetz (20:41):

Shelly Hochran, of course.

Lauren Shuler Donner (20:42):

Oh, you know Shelly. Yeah, she was head of marketing. Yes. Wow. She's a real good buddy.

Kevin Goetz (20:46):

It's great to have that network of people -

Lauren Shuler Donner (20:48):

Yeah.

Kevin Goetz (20:48):

Who are really there for you unconditionally.

Lauren Shuler Donner (20:50):

Yeah. Well, these women were, yeah.

Kevin Goetz (20:52):

And you, my dear, have given back beyond anyone's imagination. And when we come back from our break, we're gonna talk about your philanthropic work and all that you do for so many. We'll be back in a moment. Listeners, the Motion Picture and Television Fund is a nonprofit charitable organization that supports working and retired members of the entertainment community. This wonderfully run organization offers assistance for living and aging with dignity and purpose in the areas of health and social services, including temporary financial assistance, case management, and residential living. And has been a crucial lifeline to thousands during and beyond critical times that our industry continues to experience. To learn more, visit mptf.com. Please join me in helping others in our industry during times of need. There are so many ways to offer support and get involved. Thank you. We're back with legendary producer, Lauren Shuler Donner. Lauren, we were starting to talk before the break about your philanthropic work and how important it is to you and for you to give back to so many.

(22:15):

I know you're sitting on the board of something that's near and dear to my heart. Yes. The Motion Picture and Television Fund. Yes. Of which proceeds go to from both of my books.

Lauren Shuler Donner (22:24):

That's right.

Kevin Goetz (22:24):

And of course, I'm an ambassador and help any way I can. In fact, last week, I just moderated a book on Roddy McDowell. Yeah. That was done at BookSoup. Oh, nice. Which was a lot of fun for the Motion Picture and TelevisionFund.

Lauren Shuler Donner (22:38):

Oh, nice.

Kevin Goetz (22:38):

So why do you choose the causes that you choose?

Lauren Shuler Donner (22:43):

My husband and I were very involved in animal philanthropy in helping mostly rescue, dogs getting rescued. And I've always been involved in cancer research, very much involved in that.

Kevin Goetz (22:55):

You said you had cancer.

Lauren Shuler Donner (22:56):

Twice.

Kevin Goetz (22:57):

What type?

Lauren Shuler Donner (22:58):

Breast cancer.

Kevin Goetz (22:59):

And how are you today?

Lauren Shuler Donner (23:01):

I'm fine. I'm good.

Kevin Goetz (23:03):

That's wonderful.

Lauren Shuler Donner (23:03):

Yeah. But the Motion Picture Television Fund, to me, is really, really close to me also because they have a wonderful home that takes care of many people.

Kevin Goetz (23:13):

Incredible. In Woodland Hills,

Lauren Shuler Donner (23:14):

Yeah. But they also have social services that help people who are also a little bit older and, and need money and, and counseling. But most of all, they help everybody who makes a motion picture for a long, long time. So all the crews, all the vendors, everybody who ever helped... I made about 40 movies and three seasons of television and another TV series. Every crew member, every single person who ever helped make a movie, this organization helps them. It helps them in times of like the writer's strike or the fires. 

Kevin Goetz (23:52):

Unemployment for a long period of time.

Lauren Shuler Donner (23:52):

Yes. Any of the unemployment. An injury

Kevin Goetz (23:54):

They have and

Lauren Shuler Donner (23:55):

They can’t work.

Kevin Goetz (23:55):

They're a great - 

Lauren Shuler Donner (23:55):

Childcare, elder care, health services. They used to have a mobile van that went around. I think they still have that. And that is important to me to give back to them. It's so hard making a movie and it's so physically wearing and tearing and emotionally that if I can give back, if I can make people aware, this service is available to you. If you're in the industry 10, 20 years and beyond -

Kevin Goetz (24:19):

But you don't just give money. You give your time as well.

Lauren Shuler Donner (24:23):

Yes. I give money and my time.

Kevin Goetz (24:24):

And Jack Valenti alway said - Yes. The greatest gift you can give is the gift of showing up. Yes. And you show up and you've been a role model for so many of us who actually walk the walk.

Lauren Shuler Donner (24:34):

I think we're gonna show Dave at the motion picture home this year.

Kevin Goetz (24:37):

Okay, gosh, you're trumping my interview because you... Lauren has produced probably five movies that are on my favorite all - time list. Aw. Dave is one of them.

Lauren Shuler Donner (24:49):

Dave, I love.

Kevin Goetz (24:50):

I'm gona give you another name.

Lauren Shuler Donner (24:52):

Tell me.

Kevin Goetz (24:53):

Radio Flyer.

Lauren Shuler Donner (24:54):

Oh, yeah. Tough one. I know. Oh, Weepy. Yeah. Oh, tough movie, boy.

Kevin Goetz (24:59):

Oh, man.

Lauren Shuler Donner (25:00):

Yeah.

Kevin Goetz (25:01):

Whoa, why did that just come from me? Whoa. Wow. That guys watch that movie. That is -.

Lauren Shuler Donner (25:08):

Yeah.

Kevin Goetz (25:08):

That floored me. Yeah. Did Dick shoot it?

Lauren Shuler Donner (25:11):

Yeah. It was one of the three movies Dick and I did together.

Kevin Goetz (25:14):

Well, let's talk about the genius of never showing the face of the abuser.

Lauren Shuler Donner (25:20):

Yes. That, yes.

Kevin Goetz (25:22):

I'll just say that, folks, without ruining it. And the performances of those two boys.

Lauren Shuler Donner (25:26):

I know. Elijah and Joey.

Kevin Goetz (25:29):

Oh, my God.

Lauren Shuler Donner (25:29):

Yes.

Kevin Goetz (25:31):

There was something that touched me, Lauren, so deeply about my own childhood, and I did not go through abuse.

Lauren Shuler Donner (25:37):

Thank God.

Kevin Goetz (25:38):

But I certainly understood not being experienced and heard and all that stuff.

Lauren Shuler Donner (25:43):

Yeah.

Kevin Goetz (25:43):

So there was something so deeply that touched me -

Lauren Shuler Donner (25:45):

Yeah.

Kevin Goetz (25:46):

For those boys having to be older and thrust into being older than they needed to be.

Lauren Shuler Donner (25:53):

Yes.

Kevin Goetz (25:53):

And that's the thing I think - 

Lauren Shuler Donner (25:54):

Particularly the older one. Particularly the one, the role that Elijah played. Yes, the protector. Right.

Kevin Goetz (25:59):

What made

Lauren Shuler Donner (26:00):

You

Kevin Goetz (26:00):

Make that movie? 'Cause I don’t think it did any business..

Lauren Shuler Donner (26:03):

None. Nobody wanted to see. 

Kevin Goetz (26:05):

And thank God you made it.

Lauren Shuler Donner (26:06):

Yeah. You know, it was a great script. It was a really great script.

Kevin Goetz (26:10):

Tom Hanks narrated it, didn't he?

Lauren Shuler Donner (26:11):

Tom narrated it. I did two movies with Tom. That was one of them.

Kevin Goetz (26:15):

By the way, please forgive me. I, not to say that You've Got Mail is not a -

Lauren Shuler Donner (26:18):

No, no, no. Movie. It's not one of them. I, I would've never guessed Radio Flyer.

Kevin Goetz (26:21):

I'm gonna tell you another one.

Lauren Shuler Donner (26:23):

Yeah.

Kevin Goetz (26:23):

Free Willie.

Lauren Shuler Donner (26:24):

I love... Yeah, that's good. Thank you.

Kevin Goetz (26:26):

Simon Wincer.

Lauren Shuler Donner (26:27):

Yes.

Kevin Goetz (26:29):

Do you remember that test in Sherman Oaks that we did on Free Willie? The scores that come down?

*Lauren Shuler Donner (26:33):

Yes. Do you know what I remember about it? Here's what I remember. I remember for you that are listening, you know, when you give them... Kevin has told you, you give them cards and while they're filling out their cards, we are pacing nervously in the theater waiting to, for the result. While we're pacing, a man comes up to me and offers me $10. And he says, "This is for the whales." And I said, "Oh, my gosh." And I said, "No, that's really wonderful. I can't take your money." And I turned to my group. I turned to Dick and Jennie Lew Tugend, who produced it with me. And I said, "You know what? We have to have a number on the end of this movie."

Kevin Goetz (27:09):

You betcha.

Lauren Shuler Donner (27:10):

We have to have an 800 number so that people like him can give and help the, the waters and the whales. And that's what happened. It was amazing. And we were working with Earth Island. Eventually, Earth Island helped us, helped us get Keiko out of Mexico. It was heartbreaking.

Kevin Goetz (27:27):

You really did the right thing.

Lauren Shuler Donner (27:29):

Yes, we got him out. He would've died there.

Kevin Goetz (27:30):

Exactly.

Lauren Shuler Donner (27:31):

He died anyway, but...

Kevin Goetz (27:32):

But you gave it all of you your best shot.

Lauren Shuler Donner (27:36):

I felt we did.

Kevin Goetz (27:37):

Yeah, and without question. You have a commonality in most of your movies and they have this true emotional core.

Lauren Shuler Donner (27:44):

Yes.

Kevin Goetz (27:45):

That's not a coincidence any given Sunday.

Lauren Shuler Donner (27:48):

Yes. 

Kevin Goetz (27:50):

I mean, I can name movie after movie after movie that has that even pretty in pink, by the way.

Lauren Shuler Donner (27:56):

Yes.

Kevin Goetz (27:56):

I mean, what is it about you selecting material that speaks to you?

*Lauren Shuler Donner (28:01):

I look at it and I think because I am from the Midwest, would I see it if I was from Cleveland, Ohio? Would I drive paying the gas prices, park, stand in line, pay concession prices, you know, popcorn and all that, to see this movie? And if I'm answer in my gut of it's yes, then I pursue it because in my gut it has something to say and it's entertaining. And it says it in the guise of entertainment.

Kevin Goetz (28:27):

What makes you such a great producer? Like, what is your superpower?

Lauren Shuler Donner (28:32):

I think part of it is being from the Midwest. And part of it is I just love story. I love character.

Kevin Goetz (28:37):

Let's unpack that for Midwest thing first. So you have a superpower of a gut - A gut, yeah. A Midwest guy. That tells you, will this appeal to regular folks?

Lauren Shuler Donner (28:47):

That's right. And the coast. Got it. Is it sophisticated enough to appeal to the coasts and accessible enough to appeal to the, the rest of the country?

Kevin Goetz (28:57):

And then tell me about your superpower in terms of character and story.

Lauren Shuler Donner (28:59):

Character. Character to, to me, it's, it's all about character. Is this, is the lead character, is there want something that we identify with?

Kevin Goetz (29:08):

The protagonist.

*Lauren Shuler Donner (29:09):

Yes, the protagonist. Something they want. Is there something to root for? Is this character well-defined and surprising and complex? And is the villain not a cartoon - Oh. But a real character.

Kevin Goetz (29:22):

God bless you. I've been screaming this one for... It's the least dealt with script note or let's say after it's shot that we have to go and fix, which is the villain's motivation. Yeah. Being too general. Yeah. Not being - Can't do that. Too -

Lauren Shuler Donner (29:35):

Save the world.

Kevin Goetz (29:36):

Yeah. Or exactly. Or save the world or -

*Lauren Shuler Donner (29:38):

Magneto. Well, when I did X-Men, Magneto was one of the most perfect villains because they were in the Holocaust. His parents were taken by the Nazis. And then when he finally got out of the camp, he hated humans.

Kevin Goetz (29:52):

Is that in the comic book?

Lauren Shuler Donner (29:54):

Yes. And that's in our first movie.

Kevin Goetz (29:56):

I know, but you had the wherewithal to get that-

Lauren Shuler Donner (30:00):

Yes.

Kevin Goetz (30:00):

Specific in that clearance.

Lauren Shuler Donner (30:01):

Bryan did the first scene.

Kevin Goetz (30:03):

I'm a big Bryan Singer fan. I think he's an enormous talent.

Lauren Shuler Donner (30:07):

He is an enor - he's a huge talent.

Kevin Goetz (30:09):

Enormous talent. Just saying. And I got to work with him on his first movies. I did Usual Suspects.

Lauren Shuler Donner (30:15):

Oh, what a great movie.

Kevin Goetz (30:16):

And then he-

Lauren Shuler Donner (30:16):

What a great movie.

Kevin Goetz (30:17):

He did another really good one, Apt Pupil.

Lauren Shuler Donner (30:20):

Apt Pupil, yes. That when I met him was when he was doing Apt Pupil.

Kevin Goetz (30:23):

Yeah.

Lauren Shuler Donner (30:23):

And Ian. I got to meet Ian then too.

Kevin Goetz (30:25):

Who did you most enjoy working with as an actor?

*Lauren Shuler Donner (30:28):

Well, I love Hugh Jackman, but we've done six movies together. I mean, you can't help but love him.

Kevin Goetz (30:34):

And shorthand?

Lauren Shuler Donner (30:34):

Yes. And I found him and foisted him upon Bryan, but it was Hugh.

Kevin Goetz (30:39):

Explain that. How, what do you mean you found him?

*Lauren Shuler Donner (30:40):

Well, we were, we were, we had a, the studio had wanted a, a, an actor to play the role and then the, eventually the actor wasn't available. And I was looking through tapes and Hugh had done a self-tape. He was playing curly in Oklahoma in London. Actors should not feel badly about self-taping their audition because I saw in the audition a guy who had a little rascal in him who was funny and who was charismatic. And I didn't know about the capability to be rough and tough, but I sensed it. After that, I went and saw that his one movie that he did in Australia called Paperback Hero, where he plays a rogue. He's got a lot of women and he was charismatic. He could hold the screen. But the problem was he was tall and Wolverine is short. And Bryan was reluctant. And I said, "Look, I'm sending him up there."Bryan was already in Toronto.

Kevin Goetz (31:35):

So you, you called him up f - to do a screen test?

Lauren Shuler Donner (31:38):

No. Yes. I called Hugh came to LA.

Kevin Goetz (31:41):

You flew him in.

Lauren Shuler Donner (31:42):

Yes, we flew in. And then I said, "Bryan, I'm sending him up to Toronto. Just read him. I'm not asking anything else. Just read him. Put him on tape."

Kevin Goetz (31:49):

Were you in pre-production already?

Lauren Shuler Donner (31:51):

Yeah.

Kevin Goetz (31:51):

And didn't have your lead.

Lauren Shuler Donner (31:53):

No. And Anna Paquin was up there, so we had Hugh reader of scene with Anna. I just opened the door and Hugh walked in and got the room.

Kevin Goetz (32:01):

And you weren't even there?

Lauren Shuler Donner (32:02):

No. I trusted. I trusted him.

Kevin Goetz (32:04):

And what did Bryan say when he called you?

Lauren Shuler Donner (32:05):

Bryan said that the, I think the craft service guy was nearby and said - 

Kevin Goetz (32:13):

I like where this is going already.

Lauren Shuler Donner (32:14):

And said, "Oh, there's your Wolverine, huh?" Or something like that, you know?

Kevin Goetz (32:20):

Wow.

Lauren Shuler Donner (32:21):

Yeah. And he was such a nice guy. You didn't see the tough part, but he's a good actor and he can pull it out. 

Kevin Goetz (32:27):

What movie was the hardest one to get made? There had to be one that just took it out.

Lauren Shuler Donner (32:32):

Well, Ladyhawk was really hard to get made. Warners gave it to me as a writing sample. And I said, "I'll get somebody else to write our project. I'd like to make this movie." So it was just hard to get it going. And X-Men was hard. Scott Nimerfro was a development, was a development executive for our company.

Kevin Goetz (32:51):

Scott Donner company.

Lauren Shuler Donner (32:52):

The Donners. Donners, plural.

Kevin Goetz (32:54):

The Donners company?

*Lauren Shuler Donner (32:55):

Right. And Scott brought the comics to me and said, "Do you know them?" And I said, "I don't." So he said, "Well, here." And he gave me bios from Marvel. All the bios and all the characters. And I remember Dick and I were going to San Francisco. And the first one I read was Logan. And I though, oh my God, what an unbelievable character. His character was conflicted and was in love with a woman, was in love with him. Somebody had gone and messed up with his body. He would regenerate. He could never die. He had these berserker rage he couldn't control. He was just a really fascinating troubled protagonist.

Kevin Goetz (33:34):

Which made the best Movie character.

Lauren Shuler Donner (33:34):

Absolutely. Absolutely. And then I read all the... And they all were great. They all had stories like that. They were all complex.

Kevin Goetz (33:40):

Was it a hard decision for Fox to make it?

Lauren Shuler Donner (33:43):

No. I went to Warners and Bruce Berman turned down because of DC. And I went to Fox and here's the good news. Bill Mechanic, I'd known when Jeffrey put me under contract, when Disney put producers under contract right when he got there.

Kevin Goetz (33:57):

When studio heads put producers under contract.

Lauren Shuler Donner (34:00):

Yeah. Remember that? I mean,

Kevin Goetz (34:01):

That was, I mean - I know.

Lauren Shuler Donner (34:03):

When they believed in him. Yes. I know. I know. Thank you, Jeff. And that went away.

Kevin Goetz (34:06):

Yeah, yeah.

*Lauren Shuler Donner (34:07):

So I knew Bill from there. And Bill was now president of Fox, so I called him up and I said, "Can I bring you a project? X-Men?" Yes. We sell it to Bill. I find out later, Bill had sold his X-Men collection, his comics, to finance his four years at USC. I had gone to the right guy - I got chills. Accidentally. I've got chills. Just accidentally.

Kevin Goetz (34:29):

First of all, I love, love, love Bill Mechanic.

Lauren Shuler Donner (34:31):

Who doesn't?

Kevin Goetz (34:32):

Bill Mechanic has been such a good friend and he's a wonderful writer too.

Lauren Shuler Donner (34:37):

Yeah. He saw it. And then they let him go. And then Rothman came in.

Kevin Goetz (34:42):

Well, who also then kept it going, right?

Lauren Shuler Donner (34:44):

Yeah.

Kevin Goetz (34:44):

So what's the best advice Dick ever gave you?

Lauren Shuler Donner (34:48):

Let it go. <laugh>

Kevin Goetz (34:50):

Great. Let it go.

Lauren Shuler Donner (34:52):

Yeah. I was thinking about it this morning.

Kevin Goetz (34:55):

He used to call me kid. He never knew my name.

Lauren Shuler Donner (34:57):

He never knew anybody's name.

Kevin Goetz (34:59):

I know. I've since asked around and said, "Oh, I love that man. He was so kind to me, but he never knew my name. He called me, " Hey, kid. " <laugh> And it's a smart thing to do because it somehow makes you feel good.

Lauren Shuler Donner (35:10):

Yes.

Kevin Goetz (35:10):

You know what I mean?

Lauren Shuler Donner (35:11):

Yeah, I know.

Kevin Goetz (35:12):

It makes you feel good.

Lauren Shuler Donner (35:12):

Makes you feel young.

Kevin Goetz (35:13):

How do you handle conflict as a producer when the odds are really against you? How do you deal with that?

Lauren Shuler Donner (35:20):

Hang on. Well, it depends what it is. If it's conflict between departments, then I bring the department heads together. Always out of the eye of the crew. Let's understand what's going on and force everybody to play now. I mean, it depends. Is it that the dailies are out of focus or worse, low light, you can't see it? Is it that an actor isn't performing and you can't get it? I mean, there's a zillion things that can go wrong.

Kevin Goetz (35:44):

Do you remember the lowest testing movie you've ever done?

Lauren Shuler Donner (35:48):

Well, I'm sure Radio Flyer didn't test that high.

Kevin Goetz (35:50):

Au contraire.

Lauren Shuler Donner (35:52):

Oh, it did?

Kevin Goetz (35:53):

Yeah. No, no. that tested well. I mean, how could it not? It broke your heart.

Lauren Shuler Donner (35:57):

I know, but that people didn't wanna pay to see that.

Kevin Goetz (35:59):

Correct. That's a different... That's a great conversation to have about playability versus marketability.

Lauren Shuler Donner (36:05):

Yeah.

Kevin Goetz (36:05):

Because Radio Flyer was a movie that you'd have to be a hard-hearted asshole to not embrace.

Lauren Shuler Donner (36:13):

Yes.

Kevin Goetz (36:13):

But- 

Lauren Shuler Donner (36:14):

People didn't see it. 

Kevin Goetz (36:15):

It's too sad.

Lauren Shuler Donner (36:16):

Yeah, it's too sad.

Kevin Goetz (36:17):

It's just too sad. Yeah. That's what it falls under. You said before that part of your superpower was taking great stories and finding the entertainment value in them. In that case, I would say that one was not an entertaining movie.

Lauren Shuler Donner (36:30):

No.

Kevin Goetz (36:31):

But it was an important one.

Lauren Shuler Donner (36:32):

Yeah. But we tried to by telling it from the child's point of view and showing the joy that they were able to find in childhood - And you did find that. Despite the situation.

Kevin Goetz (36:42):

I believe you found that.

Lauren Shuler Donner (36:43):

Yeah.

Kevin Goetz (36:43):

I know they're all your children, but is there a particular one that there's a special place in your heart for?

Lauren Shuler Donner (36:48):

I love Dave.

Kevin Goetz (36:49):

Aren't you making a Broadway musical out of it?

Lauren Shuler Donner (36:51):

Yes, we're trying to. Yes. Yes. Absolutely.

Kevin Goetz (36:54):

That’s like, to me, an absolute no-brainer.

Lauren Shuler Donner (36:56):

Yes. Yes. 

Kevin Goetz (36:57):

I mean, Lost Boys is a much bigger gamble in some way.

Lauren Shuler Donner (37:01):

Yeah.

Kevin Goetz (37:01):

When you think about it -

Lauren Shuler Donner (37:02):

Well, it is because previous vampire Broadway shows had not done well. So that was the only reason How many were there? There was Lestat. There was about two or three. Really? Yeah. So we were going into very sort of negative territory, but we had an incredible director.

Kevin Goetz (37:17):

In Michael Arden.

Lauren Shuler Donner (37:18):

In Michael Arden.

Kevin Goetz (37:20):

Unbelievable. How much did you have to do with it?

Lauren Shuler Donner (37:22):

I ha - I... There were three producers who went to college together and they... It was their idea to do it. They worked on it. I think they approached Michael, then they went to Warners, asked if they could get the rights.

Kevin Goetz (37:35):

Out of respect or contractual?

Lauren Shuler Donner (37:36):

Out of respect.

Kevin Goetz (37:37):

Wow.

Lauren Shuler Donner (37:38):

And so I was initially involved in, you know, getting the writer.

Kevin Goetz (37:41):

Have you ever done a show?

Lauren Shuler Donner (37:42):

I was developing Dade with them.

Kevin Goetz (37:43):

With Warners?

Lauren Shuler Donner (37:44):

With Warners, yes. And so we were already working together.

Kevin Goetz (37:48):

How far along is that?

Lauren Shuler Donner (37:50):

We're bringing on a new director and we're gonna go headlong into it.

Kevin Goetz (37:55):

Great.

Lauren Shuler Donner (37:56):

Yeah. Yeah. Hopefully in 27 or so.

Kevin Goetz (37:58):

A guest here was Paula Wagner. Mm-hmm. And Paula has, of course, made a great segue. She just did High Noon. She just did High Noon. Mm-hmm. I saw that in London. Mm-hmm. And she's got some other wonderful things on her plate, but she, of course, did Pretty Woman also. Mm-hmm. But she really loves -

Lauren Shuler Donner (38:16):

Theater.

Kevin Goetz (38:17):

The theater. Yeah. She comes from it as an actress first. Right. Right. And then, of course, she was married to Robin Wagner, who was one of the great set designers on Broadway.

Lauren Shuler Donner (38:26):

Oh, I didn't know that.

Kevin Goetz (38:27):

Yeah.

Lauren Shuler Donner (38:27):

Oh, wow.

Kevin Goetz (38:28):

Isn’t that interesting?

Lauren Shuler Donner (38:29):

Yes. I come to it out of a love for musicals.

Kevin Goetz (38:32):

Who's doing your music in Dave?

Lauren Shuler Donner (38:34):

Tom Kitt.

Kevin Goetz (38:35):

Ooh.

Lauren Shuler Donner (38:35):

Gorgeous score. I mean, just so great. But here's the difference. I prefer making movies in TV. I really do.

Kevin Goetz (38:43):

Tell me why.

*Lauren Shuler Donner (38:44):

Many reasons. I mean, I was fortunate enough. I decided very early on to go the studio route and not be an independent producer because I didn't wanna spend a year raising money. I wanna understand that year making a movie. And I was lucky enough that they wanted to do my projects and therefore I never raised money. It was just about developing and making movies. In Broadway, you spend a lot of time raising money. And to me, that's not creative.

Kevin Goetz (39:09):

You spend even more time finding a theater.

Lauren Shuler Donner (39:12):

Yes. Yes.

Kevin Goetz (39:13):

It's impossible.

Lauren Shuler Donner (39:14):

Yes. It's very hard.

Kevin Goetz (39:15):

One of my dear friends is Tina Sinatra. And she is opening Sinatra in London - Yes. Which we've been invited to in two weeks. And of course, this will come out after the opening - Yeah. This, this episode. But it has been just a bear to get booked and she finally got her theater on

Lauren Shuler Donner (39:32):

The West End. Yeah. It's, it's, it's really hard.

Kevin Goetz (39:35):

But my God, just to find a theater. And that's for Sinatra, you know?

Lauren Shuler Donner (39:37):

We were incredibly lucky that the Nederlanders, Jimmy Niederlander and Nick came to our reading and they loved it. And they were like, "Okay, we're on board with you. "

Kevin Goetz (39:49):

Wow.

Lauren Shuler Donner (39:50):

"And you can have the palace." At that time, they said in March and spring, and then we opened April 26th. 

Kevin Goetz (39:55):

I know, my girlfriend, Katie Johnson has this incredible Cagney.

Lauren Shuler Donner (39:59):

I just read about that today.

Kevin Goetz (40:00):

Yeah. It's interesting. And, and Ricky Kane Latimer is producing it with Kate Johnson. And, you know, Katie's father was Lou Edelman who produced all the Cagney movies and on the Warners lot.

Lauren Shuler Donner (40:11):

Yeah.

Kevin Goetz (40:11):

Many of them, at least. Yeah. And a lot of television. And Cagney means so much to them, but they are having a hard time finding a theater. It's hard. And the musical is marvelous, led by Bobby Creighton. This guy is the spitting image of James Cagney. I mean, I can't believe how great he is. And hopefully they'll pull it off. Are you excited about the future of movies and television?

Lauren Shuler Donner (40:38):

I'm excited because I believe that content is king. That content will always be needed. Always.

Kevin Goetz (40:43):

Always.

*Lauren Shuler Donner (40:44):

And so whether it's streaming or it's in a theater, I worry about the theaters. I hope theaters will always be there and they will... It seems now that the younger generations are flocking to the theaters and that they want the social experience. So that's good. But I mean, my God, some of these series in the past, what, 10, 20 years are exceptional. It's great. They're like eight one-hour movies. They're fantastic.

Kevin Goetz (41:10):

That is absolutely the case. I remember, for me, that pivotal moment was two things. One, I've told the story before about Handmaid's Tale. When I was going to a theater one night we were in the Hamptons, Neil and I, and we were gona go to see a movie. And I said, "Let's stay home and watch this thing that's called Handmaid's Tale." And I watched it and we were like addicted. But the other one was Sherry Lansing and I were having lunch and she said to me, Billy and I went to Israel and so we had a long plane ride and I watched the entire season of Damages.

Lauren Shuler Donner (41:41):

Oh, wow. You know, I haven't seen the whole season.

Kevin Goetz (41:43):

And she said, "It is the best thing I've ever seen on television. It rivals any movie." Now, this is Sherry Lansing saying this. And so I go home and I order the season and I watch it and she is in fact correct. It was spectacular. Wow. And that's how I so agree with what you're saying.

Lauren Shuler Donner (42:01):

I agree. Great filmmakers.

Kevin Goetz (42:03):

What are you excited about project-wise?

*Lauren Shuler Donner (42:05):

I love animation. And when I was in college and I can't draw, I made a little hand-drawn animated movie. So now I'm developing Ladyhawk as adult animation, like Blue Eye Samurai, hopefully. Although they may put us in the family sector and Goonies animation. This is really fun for me. Really, I just love it. You're involved in every single creative detail. It's just wonderful.

Kevin Goetz (42:30):

And it takes years though, doesn't it?

Lauren Shuler Donner (42:31):

Yes - it takes years. That's fine. I could do this for years. I absolutely do because it's the creative.

Kevin Goetz (42:35):

It’s not the raising the money. Yeah. It's, as you said, it’s not finding the theater.

Lauren Shuler Donner (42:38):

No, no. It's actually in the trenches. It's actually making the content.

Kevin Goetz (42:41):

Yeah.

Lauren Shuler Donner (42:41):

And I have a bunch of things.

Kevin Goetz (42:44):

What else do you have?

Lauren Shuler Donner (42:45):

I have a lot of IP because Dick and I made separate movies. And between the both of us, I have a huge catalog of titles that everybody's interested in redoing in some fashion. Ah. Saint Almost Fire 30 years later. All kinds of stuff like that. I'm doing a comic book as a series. Jeff Johns used to work for Dick and me, but mostly for Dick, and gave me a comic from his great company called Ghost Machine. He went to all these comic book writers and illustrators all over the world and formed an amazing company that a lot of people have invested in. Chuck Roven and he are doing a series. A couple of us are doing series based on his comics. And I'm about to option a book called A Widow's Charm A Romanticy.

Kevin Goetz (43:31):

You are just a force, Lauren. Truly. And all these projects sound great. On another note, you've always been a tremendous believer in what I do, audience testing. Is there, like, one experience that particularly stands out to you? Uh, I'm gonna make this a very leading question. I am going to guess Pretty in Pink stands out.

*Lauren Shuler Donner (43:53):

You know that story, right? So we felt, if you haven't seen the movie, she's a poor girl, falls in love with the rich guy. And at the end, he doesn't ask her to the prom and it breaks her heart. And we wanted her to end up with Ducky, played by Jon Cryer, because he was such a good guy and we all loved him. I really wanted him to end up with her, so that's how we shot it. We all did. We play it for the audience. They fill out the cards, which to me are the most important, are the cards. And they want him, her to end up with the rich guy with Andrew McCarthy. I'm gutted. How can they want her to end up with the rich guy? We go back, we talk about it. John Hughes says, look at, we have to re-shoot with Andrew. We have to try it. We have to do it. Yeah. Ned Tannen, who's head of Paramount and me are like, "All right. Okay. Yeah. You know, okay, we do. " Hoping that this is not the right thing. So we do. We do a whole re-shoot and bring back Andrew and get him a wig and, and rewrite it. And she ends up with Andrew the Rich Guy. Now we spill and fill, right? So we, we show the movie with the old ending and we show the movie with a new ending. Overwhelmingly, they wanted her to end up with Andrew the Rich Guy.

Kevin Goetz (45:06):

Wow.

*Lauren Shuler Donner (45:07):

So who are you making movies for? Not for yourself. You're making them for the audience. So we went with the ending. So it was research that saved the movie. It never would've been as big a movie if we hadn't changed the ending.

Kevin Goetz (45:17):

That was slightly before my time. But NRG, who I worked for at the time for 16 years, did test it. Yes. But I think of your 40 movies, I probably have done 30-something of them.

Lauren Shuler Donner (45:30):

The only movies that we couldn't test were the X-Men movies.

Kevin Goetz (45:33):

Yeah, because of security.

Lauren Shuler Donner (45:34):

Well, there was, A, there was security. Along with that, our visual effects shots weren't ready.

Kevin Goetz (45:40):

Well, we do that all the time, but I wanna ask you one thing -

Lauren Shuler Donner (45:43):

Yeah. 

Kevin Goetz (45:43):

Before we go. There was a leak of an X-Men movie. Do you remember this?

Lauren Shuler Donner (45:50):

Which one?

Kevin Goetz (45:50):

It... I don't know, but it came out somehow. The whole movie was leaked before the opening. You don't remember this?

Lauren Shuler Donner (45:58):

No, I blocked it.

Kevin Goetz (45:59):

I don't believe that if you shorten the window, the people are gonna wait. I think if they wanna see it in the theater, they're gonna wanna see it in the theater. Yeah. And so here they had X-Men available to them and everyone was flipped the F out. No one wanted to see bad quality, sound, and it opened huge.

(46:15):

Well, I think we can all agree that when audiences genuinely wanna see something, particularly in a movie theater, they're gonna show up. If you build it, he will come. In this case, if you build it, they will come. Lauren Shuler Donner, thank you so much for joining me here today and for sharing like so many insights into your work and your personal life. We're all really grateful to you. I'm grateful to you. Not only for your extraordinary contributions to our industry, but for the work that you do outside of it and the support you give to members of our community. God bless you.

Lauren Shuler Donner (46:50):

Thank you, Kevin. This has been fun and keep on doing what you're doing. You make such a difference.

Kevin Goetz (46:58):

To our listeners, I hope you enjoyed this conversation. For more insights into filmmaking, audience testing, and the business of Hollywood, I invite you to check out my books, Audienceology, and How to Score in Hollywood. You can also follow me on my social media. Next time on Don't Kill the Messenger, I'll welcome two of the industry's leading distribution executives, Universal's Jim Orr and Angel Studios' Brandon Purdy. Until then, I'm Kevin Goetz. And to you, our listeners, I appreciate you being part of the movie-making process. Your opinions matter.

Host: Kevin Goetz
Guest: Lauren Shuler Donner
Producer: Kari Campano
Writers: Kevin Goetz, Darlene Hayman, and Kari Campano
Audio Engineer: Gary Forbes (DG Entertainment)