Podcast: Don't Kill the Messenger with Movie Research Expert Kevin Goetz
Guests: Jim Orr and Brandon Purdie

Interview Transcript:

Announcer (00:03):

From script to screen, every film is brought to life by visionary creatives and executives all sharing one mission to captivate the audience. Hosted by award-winning movie strategist Kevin Goetz, our podcast, Don't Kill the Messenger, offers a filmmaking masterclass through intimate conversations with Hollywood's most influential voices. And now, your host, Kevin Goetz.

Kevin Goetz (00:29):

Listeners, buckle up. Today, we're talking distribution strategy. Years ago, distribution largely meant theatrical distribution. Today, it's a whole different game. As Dorothy famously said, "Toto, I have a feeling we're not in Kansas anymore." We've gone from a relatively straightforward black and white business to a multidimensional one in technicolor, where a film's path to an audience may include theaters, streaming, premium video on demand, social media, creator platforms, fan networks, direct audience engagement, and countless combinations of the above. My guests today represent two of the most influential approaches to navigating that landscape. Jim Orr is president of Domestic Theatrical Distribution at Universal Pictures, overseeing the release of some of the biggest films in the world. Brandon Purdy is executive vice president and head of theatrical distribution at Angel Studios, where he has helped pioneer a community-driven model for reaching audiences. Together, they sit at the center of one of the most important questions facing Hollywood today.

(01:43):

How do films find the right audience and maximize profit? In an entertainment landscape that has never been more complicated and has never been more competitive, and that is an understatement. Jim, Brandon, welcome to my show. 

Jim Orr (02:01):

Hey, Kevin, thank you.

Kevin Goetz (02:02):

I'm so glad to have you, Jim. I've got to start with you because you're the older one. <laugh>

Jim Orr (02:07):

By a mile.

Kevin Goetz (02:08):

Age before beauty. No. Jim, I was struck by a line in your bio when I was doing research on this that said, "Unlike many executives who have spent their careers at a single company, Jim has seen distribution from the perspectives of a major studio, specialty label, independent distributor, and exhibition-facing sales organization." That is an interesting perspective.

Jim Orr (02:33):

Yeah, I think that means I can't keep a job. I think that's what that translates into.

Kevin Goetz (02:37):

And he's also got a great sense of humor. And it's a rye one, if you haven't noticed, listeners.

Jim Orr (02:42):

Yeah, I started at Paramount Pictures at the end of 87 here in Sherman Oaks. Was there for seven or eight months, and Paramount sent me to Boston. I was a sales rep in Boston, and then down to New York, where I was a sales manager, branch manager, division manager. And then I came back out here to the studio. I was on Wayne Llewellyn's senior staff. 

Kevin Goetz (03:02):

Oh, Wayne Lewellen.

Jim Orr (03:03):

Wayne, yeah.

Kevin Goetz (03:04):

When I think of Wayne Lewellen, I think of a cigarette in his mouth, and probably a drink in his head. <laugh>

Jim Orr (03:09):

Yeah. Yeah. He was known for both. Some refer to him as the Marlboro man.

Kevin Goetz (03:13):

He was such a, I don't know, how do you say this? All of you guys were of different kind of ilk in our business. Always my favorites. Maybe it's because I'm from New York and there was a real East Coast salesman approach to distribution when I entered the business.

Jim Orr (03:30):

Yeah.

Kevin Goetz (03:30):

It's gotten a lot more corporate now. 

Jim Orr (03:32):

Yeah, a lot more corporate. Absolutely.

Kevin Goetz (03:34):

But am I right? I'm talking about Barry London.

Jim Orr (03:37):

Barry London. Jeff Blake.

Kevin Goetz (03:39):

Barry Reardon.

Jim Orr (03:40):

Barry Reardon. Danny. Bruce Snyder, Danny Feldman, Chuck Viane. Yeah. Legends. 

Kevin Goetz (03:45):

The greatest, Right?

Jim Orr (03:45):

Absolutely, absolute legends.

Kevin Goetz (03:47):

Tom Sherak.

Jim Orr (03:48):

Tom Sherak. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. I mean,

Kevin Goetz (03:50):

Wow.

Jim Orr (03:50):

And our good friend -

Kevin Goetz (03:51):

Erik Lomis. 

Jim Orr (03:52):

Erik Lomis, yeah.

Kevin Goetz (03:53):

May he rest in peace. Yeah. But I have to tell you, they all lived kinda hard. Tom didn't live that hard. <laugh> He was pretty laid back in that

Jim Orr (04:01):

Whether they were living hard or not, they were all larger than life. No doubt about that.

Kevin Goetz (04:05):

Why do you think that is?

Jim Orr (04:07):

I think that was their personalities. And I think that kind of a personality, especially back in the day at Theatrical Distribution, had a tendency, uh, that was the cream that rose to the top.

Kevin Goetz (04:14):

Well,

Jim Orr (04:15):

That's what I'm saying.

Kevin Goetz (04:15):

It's the sales approach. It's the sales mentality.

Jim Orr (04:17):

They were very good at developing phenomenal relationships with exhibition and also being very, very tough at the, at exactly the same time. Simultaneously. 

Kevin Goetz (04:25):

I wanna mention another word, Jim, and you're gonna agree. Loyalty.

*Jim Orr (04:28):

Oh, very much so. That was Wayne's mantra. I must have heard him say a million times, "We are a relationship company." And that didn't mean we were easy to get along with. That just meant we gave and got from those that we had relationships with, and in order to further our goals and to get the very most out of every single film that we could.But yeah, very much so.

Kevin Goetz (04:46):

And it's sort of like you burn me at your own peril. 

Jim Orr (04:49):

Oh, 100%. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Kevin Goetz (04:51):

Like if you commit, I'm talking, say, a distributor talking to an exhibitor. If an exhibitor's talking to a distributor, they may say, "You're gonna take my movie, right? Yes. And if they renege, forget about it." 

*Jim Orr (05:02):

Wayne had a great saying that we all lived by, which was when talking about the relationship with exhibition can, can get a little cantankerous, to say the least. And he had a great saying to, to exhibition, if it got to a level that it probably shouldn't. He said, "I tell you what, you make the rules and I'll play by them."

Kevin Goetz (05:17):

That gave me chills because you realize you could be F'd if you -

Jim Orr (05:21):

Oh yeah. 

Kevin Goetz (05:22):

If you, um - 

Jim Orr (05:23):

Absolutely.

Kevin Goetz (05:23):

Because the rules change weekly.

Jim Orr (05:24):

He, he was, he would use it against you. No doubt about it.

Kevin Goetz (05:28):

Brandon, you've had a lifelong career in film. What I love is you started at age 14, which I wanna unpack in two seconds. And now, of course, you're a distinguished leader with a 24-year career in theatrical distribution. And Angel Studios is a model, as I've made it no secret, I'm completely in awe of, and what you've created. Being an audience advocate and the fact that Angel, of course, relies on its audience for most of its key decisions. First of all, welcome. 

Brandon Purdie (05:58):

Thank you.

Kevin Goetz (05:59):

And tell me about your story. How do you begin at 14 in our business?

Brandon Purdie (06:03):

I came up through movie theaters. But before that, my dad's an actor on stage. So I grew up on the stage, like -

Kevin Goetz (06:08):

What was his name?

Brandon Purdie (06:09):

Dennis Purdie.

Kevin Goetz (06:10):

We always like to call out the rents. But hold on. Tell me, where were you from? 

Brandon Purdie (06:14):

I grew up in Utah, a small town called Pleasant Grove, Utah. There was a still plant in the town, and my dad was a mailman.

Kevin Goetz (06:20):

I was in Kanab last night. Okay. So I was in Utah yesterday. Oh yeah. It's a great area. At the Best Friends Animal Society, where they have one of the largest no-kill shelters. And wow, it was a long drive to St. George. <laugh> You worked in the local movie theater?

Brandon Purdie (06:36):

Yeah, I grew up in, started working in a local movie theater, and then worked at a Carmike, and just kinda worked around in cinemas, and then went into management at a small regional theater chain, which kind of a legend in his own right, Tony Rudman on Westates Theaters. I worked for them, and then I worked up until regional manager and did that. And then finished school, got married, had kids. And in my mind, I though, "I wanna be able to have more time with the family and be home more. I should go into distribution." <laugh>

Kevin Goetz (07:04):

Brandon, what did you go to school for? 

Brandon Purdie (07:07):

Political science.

Kevin Goetz (07:08):

Political Science.

Brandon Purdie (07:09):

I wanted to change the world through politics.

Kevin Goetz (07:11):

I don't believe that people say when they're young, "I wanna be in distribution." Same as they don't say, "I wanna be in, say, market research." It just usually doesn't happen. But you land there. And I'm wondering, what did you wanna do when you were younger?

Brandon Purdie (07:24):

I spent so much time as a young kid at the. We had a one screen cinema in our little town. It was called Delhambra Theater in Pleasant Grove, Utah. And I spent a ton of time there. And they had this little bin with old movie posters that they'd kinda taken down. And I would go in, like, almost every day to ride my bike down, and the guy would let me take my choice of posters. So -

Kevin Goetz (07:41):

What was one of your favorite movies as a youngster? Influential movies?

Brandon Purdie (07:44):

I think I saw, like, Goonies, like, 10 times in theaters.

Kevin Goetz (07:48):

Oh, that's, that's a great answer. That was - And what about you, Jim? What's. Give me a movie that had a material effect on you as a youngster. 

Jim Orr (07:56):

I don't know the one did. I don't have a Star Wars moment like someone but - You don't? No. I think we were in college and liquored up and saw Raiders of Lost Ark. And when he shoots the guy, that guy with a. You like that? That we all - Yeah. We all though that was great. But no, I don't have a. A lot of people in our industry have a Star Wars moment, right? They saw Star Wars or something like it, and they knew what they needed to do.

Kevin Goetz (08:14):

It’s funny you say that. I don't think I had that aha moment either, but I do remember my first movie was, I think, Thoroughly Modern Millie. And then I remember seeing Escape From the Planet of the Apes pretty early. But I never had, like, that aha moment. Yeah. I remember Empire Strikes Back was very influential to me, and I had not seen Star Wars yet.

Jim Orr (08:34):

Yeah.

Kevin Goetz (08:34):

But still, you're right. It was more of the cumulative effect of how I felt when I went to the movies.

Jim Orr (08:40):

Yeah.

Kevin Goetz (08:40):

Jim, how'd you land in distribution?

Jim Orr (08:42):

Well, I knew how I landed here. I wish I knew why, is really what I don't know. So I was a junior in college up at Eastern Washington University, and somehow got it into my head that I know what I'll do. I, I'm gonna get in the movie business. And I had absolutely no right to think that way. 

Kevin Goetz (08:57):

Aren't you from Spokane?

Jim Orr (08:57):

Outside of Spokane, yeah. I'm from a tiny little town outside of Spokane. And Eastern's outside of Spokane as well. But anyway, I just got it in my head that I was gonna do that. Had no clue as to how to do it or whatever. Graduated from Eastern was stone cold broke. So I interviewed with one company in my senior year, Del Monte, over in Seattle.

Kevin Goetz (09:14):

As in Del Monte? Fruits and vegetables, man.

*Jim Orr (09:16):

Yeah. Borrowed my roommate's suit, which I ended up ripping because I'm a little wider than he is. <laugh> I was bold enough on the application to say interested in moving to Los Angeles because I figured I had to get to LA. So they called and they said, "Are you serious about moving to LA?" I'm like, "Yeah. Great. We'll see you in June." So graduated, sold everything that wouldn't fit into my beat up Toyota Corolla and drove to LA. Del Monte was great because it was selling fruits and vegetables and things like that to grocery stores, and it turns out I'm pretty good at sales. I found out I was pretty good at talking people into doing shit that they otherwise wouldn't do. 

Kevin Goetz (09:47):

And I was just gonna say, that's part of the bravado of why I liked distribution guys. Mostly guys. There were very, very few women. There's, of course, the legendary Nikki Rocco - Nikki Nikki, yeah. Who came right before you did - Yeah. For years at Universal. Yeah. She broke a glass ceiling. Absolutely. It was never a head of distribution.

Jim Orr (10:05):

She was it for quite a while, but realized it was good at sales, so I started like, "All right, what's sales in the movie business? Oh, that must be distribution," as it turns out. So I started writing to the different heads of distribution at the studios. By that time, I'd migrated into financial services and things like that. Thought I was getting too old and making too much money.

Kevin Goetz (10:22):

Who answered you?

*Jim Orr (10:23):

I made one more round of calls, and literally no joke, the last call I made was to Paramount. And a guy named Terry Kierzek said, "Yeah, I got your resume right here. I was gonna call you. So come on in." So I went in and talked to him, and he offered me a job on the spot, literally making less than half of what I was making. 

Kevin Goetz (10:41):

At Del Monte?

Jim Orr (10:42):

No, I was, I was in computers and kind of financial services at that point. I'm making a decent amount of money. And so took a flyer and went ahead and did it. Figured if I didn't do it, I kinda always regret it. And the rest is history.

Kevin Goetz (10:54):

Incredible. Yeah. Brandon, before we get into the enormous change, which I really wanna focus most of our conversation on today, I do wanna go back to show the origins of distribution. Because folks, in the beginning of Movie Dom, Film Dome, distribution was a back office function. It was not sexy. It was not even known by people. I don't even think they called it distribution. I think it was just logistics or operations. All in the worst offices on the studio lots, but obviously very important. Jim, do you remember? It was the roadshow, wasn't it? 

Jim Orr (11:35):

Yeah. Well, there were, there were guys that literally would have prints in their cars and they would drive around. I, I, one of the people I met early on in my career down in Washington DC area was a guy named literally Harley Davidson. And back in the '30s, that's what he did. He had a car and he had prints in it, and he would bicycle them around and take - Did he work for a studio? He did. I don' remember right now which one, but yeah, he worked for one of the studios.

Kevin Goetz (11:56):

So the studio would assign regions? Yeah,

Jim Orr (11:58):

Yeah. Absolutely. Is that how it works? He only had so many prints to go around. Yeah, there was no wide break at that point.

Kevin Goetz (12:03):

So, Jim, you have different people assigned to different areas of the country. Movies would stay in a theater for so long, wouldn't they?

Jim Orr (12:12):

Yeah, absolutely. The lifetime multiples that we think of now. So in other words, take the eventual domestic gross and divide it by the opening weekend, and a three is pretty good. But tens back in the day were not unusual because you would roll things out. Yeah, even within a city, by the way, you wouldn't necessarily - 

Kevin Goetz (12:27):

But the multiple was off of what? 

Jim Orr (12:28):

Off of how wide you first went. That's what I mean, but it was like 40 screens or something. Yeah, exactly. Near even 100. It seems like a long time ago. It seems like we've been doing this forever, but it's not that long ago that a 2,000 theater break was awfully wide or even 1,500. And now, of course, we can routinely, at least on some titles, get up to 4,000 or whatever. That's incredible. Even after COVID and even after some theaters have closed.

Kevin Goetz (12:49):

Is a location and a screen the same definition?

Jim Orr (12:51):

No. A screen are the number of auditoriums within a theater. A theater can be a run, a location. We use all of that.

Kevin Goetz (12:59):

So when you report to the press, it was on 3,000 200 - Theaters. Theaters.

Jim Orr (13:04):

Yeah, exactly. Got it. Even some of the legal wrangling can - So

Kevin Goetz (13:07):

It might be 6,000 screens or -

Jim Orr (13:09):

Yeah, we had, I think off the top of my head, one disclosure day right now, we had a little over 7,500 screens in a little over 3,800 theaters.

Kevin Goetz (13:17):

Incredible. Yeah. Brandon, I wanna ask you about when you first started in the business. Tell me, describe in a TV guide version, because I don't wanna hang too much on this, but what was the business like then, the distribution business like at that time? We're talking maybe 25 years ago.

Brandon Purdie (13:34):

It was really different for me. I mean, I started a small distribution company in Salt Lake City, Utah that was doing regional releases. A guy named Jeff Simpson had started a company named Excel Entertainment. He'd worked, I think, at Disney as a creative executive and spun off and started his own company and wanted to take regional films in that area out, you know, just limitedly.

Kevin Goetz (13:53):

Most of these faith-based? 

Brandon Purdie (13:55):

Yeah. At that time, a lot of them were faith-based.

Kevin Goetz (13:57):

Yeah. I remember my friend Alan Peterson worked for a company called Lucadia Films. I know he had built a strong niche in faith-based pictures, particularly Mormon-themed films. I know they thought could maybe reach audiences beyond Utah. In fact, I believe it worked.

Brandon Purdie (14:14):

Yeah, and that's what we were doing. The first film I worked on was a film called Saints and Soldiers. It was directed by Ryan Little. And it was a regional play, and we kept expanding, expanding, and it played in festivals. And, and it was kind of the first one where the niche audience though it was for them. And then the broader faith audience though that the guy was an evangelical that was for him. And then the World War II enthusiasts and people who'd studied history all just though it was a broad-based war film. And so I learned a lot on that film about - Psychographics. Segmenting office. Yeah. And really like being able to find the market and, and growing. And then I talked the owner of the company into being able to get on the phone and trying to convince people to get a smaller team and get people to commit to play the movie.

(14:55):

And my goal was to get $1,500 a theater or I was in trouble with a budget. And I just thought it was easy because I hadn't done it before.

Kevin Goetz (15:03):

So you basically were four-walling in a way. 

Brandon Purdie (15:05):

Yeah. It was like one theater time. At the time when I was starting, it was paying the theater a certain amount of money to play the okay.

Kevin Goetz (15:10):

Still the same thing, I think.

Brandon Purdie (15:11):

Yeah. But we had no marketing budget, so I had to go find congregations and World War II enthusiast groups and different groups to get, like, motivated to motivate their people to show up to the theater.

Kevin Goetz (15:22):

Was it not until Angel that you actually released Wide? 

Brandon Purdie (15:26):

Yeah, that was the first time. 

Kevin Goetz (15:26):

Wow. So this is gonna be very interesting. Yeah. Jim, what was it like in, let's say, the '90s when you started in distribution, right? Early '90s?

Jim Orr (15:36):

I started very end of 87. It looks like the Wild Wild West compared to today, quite frankly. It's so much more corporate today than it was back then.

Kevin Goetz (15:44):

Explain that. 

Jim Orr (15:45):

Well, you had a lot more exhibitors than you currently do today, right? The consolidation and exhibition has been pretty dramatic over the last 30 years.

Kevin Goetz (15:51):

When did AMC, Regal and Cinemark kinda take over as the top three?

Jim Orr (15:55):

Somewhere in the very late '90s and right after the turn of the 2000. 

Kevin Goetz (15:59):

So for the first 10 years, you were, had many more exhibitors.

Jim Orr (16:02):

Exhibitors. So yeah, for example, you had a lot more competitive allocations then. So in other words, you would play this theater, not that theater, because it was in close proximity.

Kevin Goetz (16:09):

It was legal requirement, correct? 

Jim Orr (16:12):

No, the legal requirement, so that there's something without boring everybody to tears. The Paramount consent decree existed then. We have to. It, and it's still the way we existed. 

Kevin Goetz (16:21):

Where Ontario, for example, has an AMC, and right across the street is a Regal.

Jim Orr (16:24):

In the parking lot. Yeah. And you can't,

Kevin Goetz (16:26):

You can't -

Jim Orr (16:26):

It wasn't that you can't. You'd play them day and day. They didn't wanna play da and day. In essence, you thought - Who didn't wear splitting grosses. The two exhibitors didn't wanna play day and day.

Kevin Goetz (16:33):

So how would you decide on who to give the movie to? 

Jim Orr (16:36):

Well, again, that, that might be relationships. It might be - 

Kevin Goetz (16:39):

Or I'll give you this one, you'll get this one.

Jim Orr (16:41):

Absolutely. Allocations or even rotations, things like that as your release schedule came along. And honestly, it's a much better way to do it now. Quite frankly, as a, uh, with our folks, our policy is not that we don't allocate or that we don't discern. Our policy is that we no longer honor requests for clearances. So if AMC's got a theater here and there's a theater across the street that they don't wanna play with, we quite frankly don't care. On a lot of things, we may think, no, there's enough gross and there' enough what to see that we'll play them both. On other things, not so much. We only want one of those because quite frankly, we don't wanna split the gross. There's only so much audience to go around. 

Kevin Goetz (17:15):

You know, at Ventura and Laurel Canyon, there are two CVSs across the street from each other. I never understood that. Like, who the hell did - 

Jim Orr (17:24):

But there's just enough foot traffic to, to make them both exist.

Kevin Goetz (17:25):

I guess that's the case. Or the way you drive may dictate the CVS you wanna go to - Yeah, absolutely. Because that's on my way home, and then I don't have to cross traffic - Yeah. Et cetera, et cetera. I just found it fascinating. Starbucks had the same thing. I don't know if they still do. But it was like there has to be some logic in that. 

Jim Orr (17:40):

You can find a Lowe's in a Home Depot sharing a parking lot in some places as well too. And you can see movie theaters doing that. And that's fine, but that doesn't necessarily mean every single movie needs both runs in a given area.

Kevin Goetz (17:51):

The most significant change, I think, which we're gonna get into after the break, is around windowing. Mm-hmm. So what I was trying to get to early on, and even when you were doing, Brandon, like, more limited releases, are the fact that you'd have to keep the movie in the theaters for a certain number of days. What was that number?

*Jim Orr (18:09):

Every movie has to earn its keep when it goes into a theater. Generally speaking, though, when we put something in a theater, even certainly back when we were buying prints and even today when we're not, we expect them to hold it clean for the first two weeks. And then after that, it's a series of arm wrestling contests over every Monday as to whether we're gonna stay in or not. And that's determined on the level of gross.

Kevin Goetz (18:30):

I mean, going in knowing that you had a pay window and a. That's what I'm talking about. You were in a theater -

Jim Orr (18:36):

Yeah, But the, but again, remember, the theatrical window is the only window that opens and ever closes. So quite frankly, as a theatrical distributor, I don't care what other windows are coming along, what other ancillary markets are coming along. If my film is grossing and my film deserves to stay in theaters, it's going to stay in theaters regardless. 

Kevin Goetz (18:55):

You mean back in 1990, there was not a hundred and some odd day or 90-something day or 70-something day window -

Jim Orr (19:04):

So, So, there. 

Kevin Goetz (19:05):

That had to stay in the theaters or - 

Jim Orr (19:07):

No, it's not a matter of having to stay in the theaters. Got it. What it, what it is, is the theatrical release date, and then you'd be X number of days to home entertainment. So in X number of days to - So it wasn't about the theatrical.

Kevin Goetz (19:15):

No, it's about the -

Jim Orr (19:16):

It was about the performance. It's about the ancillary. 

Kevin Goetz (19:19):

Yeah. 'Cause you wouldn't wanna pull it if it was still doing well. 

Jim Orr (19:20):

We wouldn't pull it anyway. Yeah, no. We wouldn't pull it anyway. What you might do is push, especially back then, you would push back some of the windows. You'd push back the home entertainment window, the DVD window, the, the VHS window before that and things like that. 

Kevin Goetz (19:31):

Brandon, were you conscious of windows back 25 years ago? Yeah. How so?

Brandon Purdie (19:36):

We were opening narrow, and then we were playing in theaters for long, long time, because we didn't have big budgets. We were buying smaller buckets of prints. Sometimes I had to choose between, should I try to do 100 prints, but I'll have this much less marketing dollars to spend? And then we would just rotate those things and then clean the prints and then keep shuffling them around the country market by market, putting them out there. But the niches that we served were prolific at selling DVDs at the time. We were conscious of it from theaters being very - 

Kevin Goetz (20:05):

Did you kiss into that revenue?

Brandon Purdie (20:07):

When I started, we were full distribution, so every window. We were manufacturing and shipping us.

Kevin Goetz (20:11):

How has your relationship with marketing changed over the last 25 years?

*Brandon Purdie (20:16):

Moving from my own business to Angel Studios, it's very different. Angel was started by three brothers who had prolific marketing chops, who were launching consumer products using YouTube in the early days of YouTube when ads were just starting to come in and they were taking like, like one of the campaigns was Squatty Potty or Poopouri or these, like, kind of viral videos that they would use on YouTube. And they were kind of gamifying what was happening with YouTube and YouTube starting to break out.

Kevin Goetz (20:45):

They, they were understanding, oh, I can engage with an audience. Yeah. That's gonna be interesting. Jim, same question. How has marketing changed from 1990 to today in terms of working with distribution? 

Jim Orr (20:56):

In terms of working with distribution? I think we work more together now than we probably used to. There are a lot of things that we do together, plus in theater marketing has always lived within distribution, but also has a foot firmly in big marketing as well. 

Kevin Goetz (21:09):

Can you explain what in theater marketing is?

Jim Orr (21:09):

So yeah, in theater marketing is literally what it sounds like. Everything from the simplest stuff like putting one sheets, posters, and trailers on screen and things like that, to digital promotions, to concession promotions, you name it. Now it's a very broad thing. We got a phenomenal in-theater marketing head in Eric Carr at Universal that just does a tremendous job with that and it is a very busy part of the world. For obvious reasons. If you were selling widgets, you'd wanna know where people are buying widgets. If you're trying to put people in theaters and you wanna advertise where people are in theaters. And so in theater marketing, saying everything in the name that, you know, is crucial.

Kevin Goetz (21:44):

How much percentage-wise does typically a basics, you know, the basics line item within the marketing budget get allocated to in-theater marketing? 

Jim Orr (21:53):

Oh, I think it depends. And I really don't even have a number for you. Yeah. It just depends.

Kevin Goetz (21:57):

But it's increased over the years. Absolutely.

Jim Orr (21:59):

Yeah, because it's just broadened out. We're just doing more things. Here's the latest thing. Latest thing everybody's talking about, popcorn buckets. Who knew that that was gonna be a thing, right? Yeah. And now popcorn buckets are all the rage. 

Kevin Goetz (22:09):

You mean branded popcorn buckets?

Jim Orr (22:10):

Oh yeah. Just ju - or just people collecting and buying popcorn buckets. 

Kevin Goetz (22:13):

Collecting them too.

Jim Orr (22:14):

Yeah. We have a popcorn bucket that looks like an IMAX camera coming out with the Odyssey. IMAX put it up on their merch side and sold out in - 

Kevin Goetz (22:22):

Kind of brilliant, Jim. Moments. That your idea?

Jim Orr (22:23):

I wish it was. No, but I, I don't know whose idea it was, but it was brilliant, that's for sure.

Kevin Goetz (22:26):

It is a brilliant idea. Yeah. Wow. Same in terms of in theater for you? 

Brandon Purdie (22:31):

We're looking at a movie by movie basis. It feels like it's become more and more just an extension of the booking process. 

Kevin Goetz (22:38):

Do you feel the need to compete with the majors?

Brandon Purdie (22:40):

No. For an indie studio, I just think that's a quick way to lose a lot of money. We're playing a different game in the same venue. 

Kevin Goetz (22:47):

I'm gonna ask you both the same question now. We're going back to 1990. Content is king. Marketing is king. Distribution is king. What was it in 1990? Jim?

*Jim Orr (22:59):

Oh, it's the same thing today. It's always content. It's always the movie first.

Kevin Goetz (23:03):

Yeah, I agree. Brandon?

Brandon Purdie (23:04):

Yeah, it's the movie. Yeah. 

Kevin Goetz (23:06):

Huh.

Jim Orr (23:07):

Sumner’s the one that said that, by the way. He said that in the late '90s. Content is kings. 

Kevin Goetz (23:10):

Sumner Redstone said that? Yeah.

Jim Orr (23:12):

Or at least he's taking credit for being the one that said that.

Kevin Goetz (23:14):

And now we're going to today. You still believe content is king.

*Jim Orr (23:17):

I do, yeah. I think it's about the movies. I really do. And I think there's some really interesting things going on in the market right now that kind of prove that out. It is about the movie and the audience that is available for that and wants to see it.

Kevin Goetz (23:28):

You agree with that? 

*Brandon Purdie (23:29):

I do. I think you hear every once in a while, somebody will pop up and, you know, there'll be a down week in cinema and they'll say theatrical's dying or cinema's dying and cinema's not dying. Well - Theatrical's not dying. What's happening is sometimes there's just not movies that people want to go and see. Right. And we're, we're making aspirational movies for what should audiences want instead of what do audiences want. I agree right now. You got two movies that are just showing. When there's movies that people wanna go see, you can't stop them from going to see the movies and they'll show up and it'll break all the models and, and all the multipliers. 

Kevin Goetz (24:02):

Well, in the case of your movie, Obsession, Jim. I mean, we' talking about Focus. But the master brand, if you will, of Universal. It's unbelievable. We've never seen that in recent memory. When was the last movie that increased their grosses? That often after that wide of a break.

Jim Orr (24:16):

I think you have to go all the way back to something like ET. 

Kevin Goetz (24:20):

I remember Polar Express did it.

Jim Orr (24:22):

Nothing to that degree. 

Kevin Goetz (24:23):

Not to that degree. No. No. It's so, so rare. Sound of Freedom did it, but not to that degree.

Brandon Purdie (24:25):

It was a July 14th.

Kevin Goetz (24:27):

Sound of Freedom did do it too.

Jim Orr (24:29):

If Obsession opened up in mid-May wide, they had a great opening weekend. And by the time it's done with its theatrical run, the lifetime malt on that thing is gonna be over a 13, which is just insane. Absolutely insane.

Kevin Goetz (24:43):

So Matt Beloni, who I was on a show last week, asked me how I thought it tested. And I said, "Matt, I can't talk about individual movies, but what do you think?" It had to have a great word of mouth because of that. But by the same token, Back Rooms is not the same model, and it has fallen off quite a bit after its first. So it's not as embraced as a movie like Obsession is. Would that be a fair statement? Uh, it's just the truth. Yeah. Yeah. I'm just saying it didn't grow. It dropped 70 plus percent.

Jim Orr (25:09):

Opened extraordinarily well.

Kevin Goetz (25:11):

Extraordinarily well. 

Jim Orr (25:12):

We had a White Hot Affinity group out there for it. I didn't have the legs of Obsession. Obsession, as our marketing friends would say, has got into the zeitgeist, and it's just staying there. It's not leaving.

*Kevin Goetz (25:22):

What I talk about often, and Jim sees me a lot at test screenings. I mean, we've been through literally hundreds together over our careers, is the word of mouth the Definite Recommend score. Always the most important score because it has a direct correlation to the multiple, the opening weekend multiple. And that's the legs. So we're not trying to torture anyone. We're trying to get that up as high as we can so that you have the chances for greater success. And sometimes you have to be relentless. I wanna just double back and say I'm one of those people who certainly doesn't say theatrical is dead, but I also say theatrical's not coming back to where it was for various reasons. And I don't think that's a bad thing. It just is a fact. And the fact is that more people probably go to the movies, but will see far fewer films.

(26:09):

So I think going back to what you both said about content, it really is incumbent upon the studios, the independents to make things that people want to leave their homes to see. That to me is important. And it's incumbent upon marketing to reach them and distribution to offer the different formats for them to see. I would

*Jim Orr (26:27):

Throw an exhibition as well. We had this conversation not too long ago. Peter Kramer can produce and find the greatest movie ever. And our production folks can just do the best job that you can, you know, greatest filmmaker and can make the just spectacular movie. Michael Moses and his team can market it like something has never been marketed before. We can put it in every theater. And if folks go into theaters and the screen's wonky and the sound doesn't work and the seats are broken and things like that, there are certain audience demos. You may not get them back in theaters in their lifetime.

Kevin Goetz (26:58):

Is there an exhibitor who's doing an especially good job of evolving with the times? 

Jim Orr (27:03):

Certainly like anything else in life, there are some that do a phenomenal job and some that I'm sure could probably look to improve. It would be hard to pick one out. We love all of our friends in exhibition and enjoy the partnership that we have with all of them.

Kevin Goetz (27:15):

When we come back, we are going to talk about what I'm really anxious to talk about where things are today in distribution and how audiences have sort of been at the forefront of those decision makings since audiences are now in the driver's seat. We'll be back in a moment. Listeners, the Motion Picture and Television Fund is a nonprofit charitable organization that supports working and retired members of the entertainment community. This wonderfully run organization offers assistance for living and aging with dignity and purpose in the areas of health and social services, including temporary financial assistance, case management, and residential living. And has been a crucial lifeline to thousands during and beyond critical times that our industry continues to experience. To learn more, visit mptf.com. Please join me in helping others in our industry during times of need. There are so many ways to offer support and get involved.

(28:22):

Thank you.

(28:26):

We are back with Brandon Purdy from Angel Studios and of course Jim Orr, head of domestic theatrical distribution at Universal. Gents, I wanna talk about today's world and how the consumer is truly now in the driver's seat. And that definitely was not the case in the '90s or aughts. It started to change when the streaming revolution came into play. Suddenly, the three Cs, I call them, were something we had to deal with. And that's cost, convenience and choice. Cost meaning, come on, what is it? At least 100 bucks in some cities for a family of four to see a movie in a theater with the tickets, concessions, and parking. It's convenient as hell to stay home. And the choice is extraordinary at home when in the theater it's very limited. So how has your job shifted? And you know, Jim, I'm gonna go to COVID because you broke some rules which were great and I so admire, but I'd like to talk about how things have changed mostly for you.

(29:33):

And Brandon, I'm gonna start with you because I'd like to talk about Angel Studios and their model.

Brandon Purdie (29:39):

Yes.

Kevin Goetz (29:40):

You recognize something that very few had recognized. And then I wanna ask Jim about what he thought when your big movie Sound of Freedom came out, probably unnerved him in some way, and all the heads of the majors. Yeah.

*Brandon Purdie (29:53):

So we really focus on the audience. Like, there's no executive at Angel that can green light a film. It has to be past by the audience.

Kevin Goetz (30:01):

Unpack that for us, please.

Brandon Purdie (30:02):

Yeah. So we built a platform where filmmakers can submit their movies, and the Angel Guild is a group of people who -

Kevin Goetz (30:09):

The Angel Guild - How many?

Brandon Purdie (30:12):

 Yeah. Is a group of people of Right now, it's 2.4 million.

Kevin Goetz (30:15):

2.4 million?

Brandon Purdie (30:16):

Mm-hmm.

Kevin Goetz (30:17):

And have they all paid money to join? 

Brandon Purdie (30:20):

Yeah, so they're able to watch all the content that we have on our platform, but also all the content that's submitted. 

Kevin Goetz (30:25):

So it's a subscription model. 

*Brandon Purdie (30:27):

We like to refer to more as a membership. When you're a member of Angel and you can stream the films that we have on our platform, you also get two free tickets to every one of the movies that we put out in theaters. On top of that, you're voting for the shows. So you're coming for a film, but you're staying for the mission of kind of shaping films that you wanna see in cinema. So they watched the full, either short proof of concept or the full movie. 

Kevin Goetz (30:51):

What do you call them?

Brandon Purdie (30:52):

Torches. 

Kevin Goetz (30:53):

How'd they get that name?

*Brandon Purdie (30:53):

It's based on kind of the way that the Statue of Liberty came to be in origin that they couldn't. And I'm gonna butcher the story, but they didn't have the money to do that. So they just built the torch. And people could give money to be able to help see the statue be built. 

Jim Orr (31:08):

So the Statue of Liberty was the original crowdfunder.

Brandon Purdie (31:10):

Original crowdfunder. Yeah. And so - Yo knew that? No.

Jim Orr (31:13):

But that's what it, that's what we're paying attention.

Brandon Purdie (31:14):

Yeah. And so early on at Angel, the company was evolving and growing, and there was a moment where to be able to keep the company going, the founders had to look to the audience and say like, "Would you guys like to see this movement that we've started become a studio and bring on more films?"

Kevin Goetz (31:31):

So initially started with a library of, and it was a subscription model just seeing like, I know your mission statement has to do with putting light out into the world and creating things. amplify

Brandon Purdie (31:42):

Yeah, telling stories that light.

Kevin Goetz (31:42):

That amplify light. Yeah. Which is a pretty wide berth. So it originally started with a library of movies, and then ultimately you brought the audience into this crowdsourcing model. And that was to grow the business. And you found that audiences really were invested in wanting to have their opinions heard.

Brandon Purdie (32:04):

Yeah, they showed up in a major way and were able to kind of launch Angel Studios from that. So Angel doesn't refer to anything faith-based. It actually refers to the people who, crowdfund who put money into it, the angel investors, the people who came and -

Kevin Goetz (32:19):

Well, Sound of Freedom wasn't exactly a faith-based movie. It was faith-friendly perhaps. Yeah.

Brandon Purdie (32:24):

Yeah.

Kevin Goetz (32:24):

But it did show light. Brought your attention to an important topic of trafficking.

Brandon Purdie (32:28):

Yeah. And so that moment, it became all about the audience. Like how do we interact with the Angel audience and how do we continue to build that? And how do we find like-minded people who are interested in the mission of what we're doing?

Kevin Goetz (32:38):

Can you talk about that movie a little bit? Like what did people see in that movie that was so successful? It seems like it's a very good movie. It's not an extraordinary movie, but it touched the hearts and minds of folks. Why?

Brandon Purdie (32:51):

Yeah, it did. It just ran away. I think it was the right movie at the right time and a whole bunch of kind of building up of a powder keg over time of political stuff that was happening and just opened up. And it kind of showed up quick. Like we acquired the movie and I though, we should release this movie in September. It gives us enough time to prepare. And then internally, one of the founders felt like, no, it should be July 4th. Indiana Jones and Mission Impossible is coming out on that same day. And it was like three months from that date. And of course, I'm the only person in the room that had been in distribution. So I'm saying, three months or, you know, July 4th, like two of the biggest film franchises, theatrical franchises? And they felt committed to it. So we went after that date.

Kevin Goetz (33:30):

And you knew that from polling your audience?

Brandon Purdie (33:33):

At that point, we were so new. That was only our second film that we'd ever put out theatrical. Oh. We did one film before that theatrical. And I had sold my business and started just in February that year building Angels Theatrical.

Kevin Goetz (33:44):

What was the first one?

Brandon Purdie (33:45):

It was His Only Son. It was a biblical film. It was made for like $250,000.

Kevin Goetz (33:48):

Didn't do any business?

Brandon Purdie (33:49):

It did over $12 million. It was made for $250,000.

Kevin Goetz (33:53):

So that gave him confidence. And how much was Sound of Freedom made for?

Brandon Purdie (33:56):

They've never given us a firm production budget.

Kevin Goetz (33:58):

Well, it wasn't that much though.

Brandon Purdie (33:59):

But no, it was right on, 15 or 20 million.

Kevin Goetz (34:02):

Tell us about the Pay It Forward model.

*Brandon Purdie (34:04):

Yeah. So Pay It Forward actually had started early with Angel in their early days of streaming, meaning that they had a hit show that they had originated. It was called The Chosen. And they were trying to figure out how to get people to watch it. And I think one of the founders had, had a neighbor he was letting watch the show, and he realized people weren't watching it because they didn't wanna spend the money to watch the show. And so he let them watch it for free. And then it started to spread and he watched it like in his neighborhood. You know, they're new in entertainment and innovative. And they said, "What if we just made the show free and there's a call to action at the end where if you wanna help other people be able to watch the show, pay it forward so that, for this many people to watch it." So then when we went into theatrical, I got a call. We built all of our own tech internally. Like half of our company's engineers. There's a lot of engineers at Angel. And so I got a call from one of the engineers like, "Yeah, I think we figured out how to do Pay It Forward in the cinema. Do you think we should give it a shot?" And I said, "Yeah, yeah, go for it." So like the next day on a Sunday, they rented out an auditorium and they were playing around with scanning QR codes and seeing if they could get, you know, people could pay it forward from the theater. So his only son, it went out and it was successful, but that movie didn't break out like Sound of Freedom. And Sound of Freedom was really from what that movie was about and it being such a current issue that we're facing now. And so we recorded Jim Kevisel giving a call to action at the end of the movie and put it on and over $20 million paid forward for people to go see the movie. So people are paying it forward and the tickets are coming into a bucket. Like if you just imagine a bucket, they're filling up. And then we're also running a campaign to make sure that people can get the tickets and use them. And so all that money -

Kevin Goetz (35:43):

So you become like a fulfillment center in a way?

Brandon Purdie (35:46):

Yeah. We were doing like a wait list because sometimes there wouldn't be any pay it forward tickets left. You know, people had gone and seen it and so people would get on a wait list and other people would pay it forward and -

Kevin Goetz (35:53):

It was like the smart version of, remember that company Movie Pass that certainly had its challenges, but it did teach us that people really wanted to see movies. I'll tell you that. That Price does have something to do with it. 

Brandon Purdie (36:06):

But it enabled Sound of Freedom to really be seen by anybody who -

Kevin Goetz (36:09):

Wonderful.

Brandon Purdie (36:09):

And globally.

Kevin Goetz (36:11):

How do you feel about the studios? Do they intimidate you as a small player?

Brandon Purdie (36:16):

No. I mean, I came up from the cinema, so I admire them.

Kevin Goetz (36:19):

Do you find them trying to ever intimidate you?

Brandon Purdie (36:22):

No, not at all. I really just feel like there's enough.

Kevin Goetz (36:25):

I think you at Angel have done such an incredible job of. I'm looking at a little movie here I worked on called Cabrini, which is behind you right now. Mother Cabrini. It's a terrific picture. And there's no way a studio would ever release that or could release it because they have certain overhead they have to make and projections they have to run. So you believe there's room for everyone. Jim, on the studio side, do you think people underestimated Angel?

Jim Orr (36:53):

Personally, I think more movies that excite more people to get into more theaters is just simply a good thing. Full stop.

*Brandon Purdie (37:00):

Yeah, like when I see obsession happening, I like to be in the cinema to watch movies. I see multiple movies a week. But I'm just as excited when I see a movie break out as when it's a movie that I'm working on, because it just means the cinema is thriving and more options and more audiences and, and especially when it's bringing young people to the cinema. I mean, I really believe that this is like multi-generational nostalgia. It drives a lot of audience going. And so when people see trailers for more movies, they come back to the cinema. I'm celebrating anytime a movie's winning, wherever it's coming from.

Kevin Goetz (37:33):

Yeah, I think that more good movies beget more good movies and success begets success. It's just how it works. Jim, the pandemic was an incredibly scary time for all of us. I mean, my God. I remember Warners, for example, having to make some very tough decisions. Anne Sornoff was a guest on my podcast and we talked about that. I don't know if you ever caught that one, but it was a really hard time where they had to make some big decisions that pissed a lot of people off. But I also understand why they had to do things at that time. You were one of the first guys, Jim, to create, I believe, the 17-day window. Can you tell us about that? And what was going through your mind at that time?

Jim Orr (38:14):

The audiences, generally speaking, can be pretty different for something that is a premium transactional model versus a theatrical model. And the world was certainly in a different place in 2021 and even early 22 than it is today. And so when we went to exhibition with this idea, what we promised them was at least 17 days, at least 17 days of theatrical exclusivity, meaning it would not be on a premium market prior to that.

Kevin Goetz (38:40):

And the reason you chose 17 was three weekends? 

Jim Orr (38:42):

Yeah. 17's also not arbitrary. It's because it's through the third Sunday. And basically through the third Sunday or 17 days of theatrical exclusivity is roughly on almost any film, anywhere from 70 to 80-something percent of the course.

Kevin Goetz (38:55):

You just took my question.

Jim Orr (38:56):

So, yeah, it's

Kevin Goetz (38:57):

Beautiful.

Jim Orr (38:57):

So-

Kevin Goetz (38:58):

So about 75% of every movie-ish -

Jim Orr (39:01):

Ish.

Kevin Goetz (39:02):

Happens within 17 days.

Jim Orr (39:04):

17 days. Yeah. That's how front loaded the business is. We were discussing earlier how it wasn't that way prior. It certainly is today.

Kevin Goetz (39:10):

How much of percentage is in 30 days or 31 days? 

Jim Orr (39:14):

By the time you get to that, you're in the 90s. Yeah.

Kevin Goetz (39:16):

Okay. Then why is there a debate on windowing?

*Jim Orr (39:20):

Well, I think there's still a very valid debate, and we've actually now extended our - I know you have, that's why I'm asking. Yeah. I think what you don't wanna do necessarily is train audiences to simply wait. But the other thing to keep in mind is there's a dramatic difference between a PVOD model and an SVOD model. If you are 17 days to subscription streaming, that's dramatically different than 17 days to a high price transactional model. So listen, the industry is, it's always been the case for the last 30-something years that we've been dealing with. Windows are, are constantly gonna be moving. We feel very good about the decision that we've made to extend that. 

Kevin Goetz (39:56):

What is your current-

Jim Orr (39:57):

Currently, in 26, we're at least 32 and going to 45, in essence, in 27 and beyond. And again, by that point, I don't think you're training the audiences to stay home. You've certainly given every film a great opportunity to leg out theatrically. And by the way, they're also not carved in stone. 

Kevin Goetz (40:12):

The Naysayers would say, and I'm one of them, that you can't train an audience. Like, you're not going to do that. Like audiences, because they're in the driver's seat, I think, know what they wanna see in a theater and what they don't. Jim, you'll remember this. I remember X-Men, this was pre - COVID, was pirated. And it got out online. Do you remember that?

Jim Orr (40:34):

I do.

Kevin Goetz (40:35):

And it was scarier than shit. Like, we were all panicked because it got out and they thought it was gonna really cut into the box up since of course it didn't. I mean, we'll never know if it did, but it, for all intents and purposes, it was a huge opening, and it didn't seem like it affected it a whit. And so I think people did not wanna see that movie that they were anticipating with shitty sound and shitty color and so forth. They wanted to see it in a theater. And I think that's where I believe in the audience, I think, differently than a lot of people in the industry. I just don't buy that we're gonna condition people to do that. If people wanna see back rooms, they're going opening weekend. And they're not gonna wait to see it online. I don't believe. 

Jim Orr (41:17):

No, first of all, it's a completely different product, right? The, the thing that we're talking about, a movie itself is engineered from the ground up to be seen on a 40-foot screen with the amazing Atmos surround and everything else like that, that you got going on. 

Kevin Goetz (41:28):

And the, let's call it the best possible conditions.

*Jim Orr (41:29):

Best possible, yeah. Then it's a true experience, right? And that's how you wanna experience these movies. That's how you really wanna consume them. There are some folks that don't go into theaters at all. It's just not what they do. And, and that's for perfectly fine. Our job as distributor and marketers is, uh, and producers is to make a phenomenal movie that excites them and market it and get it in front of them and drag them into the theaters and, and have them have a wonderful time. And so they come back and see something else.

Kevin Goetz (41:52):

People often ask me who my favorite studio is. And just like your friends, I don't answer that question because I have so many friends and there's so many great studios at different times that's cyclical. But I have to say, Universal just has a terrific process led by, of course, Donna Langley and Peter Kramer and Michael Moses and, and you, Jim. And there's others that are just terrific at what you all do. But you also seem to take a bit more risk than some others, which I appreciate. And that means something.

Jim Orr (42:25):

Thank You. Yeah, I appreciate that. That was very kind. I certainly hope so. I hope we do. Donna has absolutely created a culture that I think encourages risk-taking, encourages people to speak up and to be bold and things like that. Um - But I,

Kevin Goetz (42:38):

I wanna just jump in on Wicked, for example. I mean, Wicked was a huge risk. Yeah, absolutely. People don't understand that. That was not just, oh, because now it's successful. 

Jim Orr (42:49):

Well, first of all, it was big to begin with just as Wicked. Whether it was gonna be one movie and, you know, whatever. And so everybody held hands on that. And then we all held hands again when it was decided to make it two movies. And it was absolutely the right decision. Mark Platt and John Chu's vision was 100% spot on. And of course, their execution was absolutely amazing. They put together a cast. 

Kevin Goetz (43:09):

Do you remember that first screening, Jim? 

Jim Orr (43:10):

I do, absolutely.

Kevin Goetz (43:11):

In Arizona, that one. Yeah. And then we did that other one in Arizona, and it even scored better. Yeah. It was like, what the hell? Yeah. And it was just, I remember feeling a sense of reverence for Donna. And obviously, Mark had this great property and John knocked it out of the park. But it had to take a real set of, you know what, to have done that multi, multimillions of dollar commitment.

Jim Orr (43:36):

Yeah. Absolutely. Yeah, we all held hands and said, "Yeah, absolutely. That's, it's the right thing to do." And again, John and Ari and Cynthia and Jonathan, their execution was just flawless.

Kevin Goetz (43:48):

One of the other great things y'all did was putting Chris Meledandri into Illumination and partnering in that enterprise. I think it's been your single most important investment you ever made. And also Jason Blum, the relationship with Blumhouse has been another - Yeah. Great boon for you guys, right?

Jim Orr (44:05):

The, the relationships that we have with Illumination is just phenomenal. Same with Jason at, at Blumhouse as well. It's just, they wanna be at Universal. I think a lot of filmmakers wanna be at Universal. They wanna work with Donna. I would like to think that they see a culture here that is something that they wanna be a part of. Couldn't be more proud of that. 

Kevin Goetz (44:19):

I was gonna say, what was one of your proudest professional moments at Universal?

*Jim Orr (44:23):

Hard to single one out, but I'll tell you what, it's a film that ended up winning Best Picture, probably. Oppenheimer. Comes to mind. No, actually, interestingly enough, not, although it was phenomenal getting to work with Chris and Emma for the first time there. But no, it was actually Green Book. Jim Burke is - 

Kevin Goetz (44:37):

I love that you said that.

Jim Orr (44:38):

Jim Burke, the producer of it's a friend of mine. We worked together at Focus. Peter Fairley, the director, and I had, had some interesting conversations. And it was one where we were talking earlier about you don't necessarily go wide all the time. That was one where less was more. We decided to go on a more limited break. We went on with about a thousand theaters. 

Kevin Goetz (44:54):

Why did you make that decision?

Jim Orr (44:55):

Thanksgiving. Here's what we found out. And we have the greatest marketing engine in this industry. It's, it's not arguable. I mean that very sincerely. Michael Moses and his team are as good as it gets, bar none. As good as they are, marketing Green Book was not the easiest thing in the world. It's two old guys driving around in a car in the South in the 60s. Of course. Right? But 100% of the people that saw it loved it. I mean, literally loved - 

Kevin Goetz (45:17):

I know, I worked on it. I remember it was one of the highest testing movies we had ever done.

*Jim Orr (45:21):

So the, the theory is this, and I used 42nd Street as an example when we all talked about it, which was we could open up both Ewok and the Empire. They literally face each other across 42nd Street. Then we'd have two $5,000 grosses that are both about the bottom of the building, right? 'Cause it's not gonna open fantastic necessarily. And no matter how good the word of mouth is, physics is gonna take over. There's more film coming in, they're gonna go. Or we open up one of those two runs. We have a $10,000 gross that's about in the middle of the building. And now we have room to sit there. And we can sit there and we can sit there and s - we can sit there. And we decided to do that across all of North America. And so talked to participant and CA, we all agreed, Michael and everybody.

(46:00):

And so we did that, and that's exactly what happened. It opened up okay, but it didn't drop. And it just sat there and sat there and sat there. And as we got awards and as we got other indications, we'd put our foot on the gas and go broader. And next thing you know, we've got about 34 million at the end of the year. It goes to 83-some million, and you see a friend of yours up there accepting the Oscar for Best Picture. It was pretty cool.

Kevin Goetz (46:21):

Incredible.

Jim Orr (46:21):

It was pretty cool.

Kevin Goetz (46:22):

That's a great story. I also wanna mention that Borat did that. I remember Sasha Barancone and I recently talked about it. We were reminiscing about some of the older films that he had done, and that Fox had distributed that in, I think it was only like a thousand screens or something, or 800 screens, something along those lines. It was not very wide. And the movie did gangbusters. The word of mouth on it was so unbelievably great. It grew that second weekend and beyond. So it was actually a brilliant strategy. It was a movie that needed to be discovered. And like Green Book. Yes.

Jim Orr (46:59):

We all discussed it and seemed like the right thing to do, and it turned out to be great.

Kevin Goetz (47:02):

That's just great. That's just great. Brandon, what are you most proud of in your career so far?

Brandon Purdie (47:07):

Being a part of Sound of Freedom was pretty amazing.

Kevin Goetz (47:10):

That had to be a head trip.

*Brandon Purdie (47:11):

Week after week after week is our second movie out as a studio releasing the film. But then, you know, for my whole entire career of working with audiences and figuring out niche audiences and micro transactions with smaller audiences and working film by film by film and kind of doing a volume play. Then to be at Angel, building this audience-driven thing that Angel had already largely built and adding theatrical to it. And then to have that film just take off. I mean, I'm sure Jim's experienced this a lot. But, you know, to just feel like you couldn't have stopped that movie if you'd have tried, you know? Like, at some point, it just went and it just hit a moment and it was exciting.

Kevin Goetz (47:50):

That's just great.

Brandon Purdie (47:51):

Yeah.

Kevin Goetz (47:52):

Jim, you must, on some weekends, love the either late Thursday night calls or early Friday morning calls. Certainly the Saturday morning calls. And sometimes you must read them. <laugh> Fair play?

Jim Orr (48:07):

Yes. That is 100% an accurate, <laugh> an accurate assessment.

Kevin Goetz (48:10):

Do you pick up the phone and call the senior leadership at Uni? 

Jim Orr (48:14):

Yeah, it's more emails than anything. No, I know. You can

Kevin Goetz (48:16):

Turn out to a broad group.

Jim Orr (48:17):

Yeah. Absolutely. 

Kevin Goetz (48:18):

I bet it's a phone call when it's really good. 

Jim Orr (48:20):

Sometimes it's a phone call.

Kevin Goetz (48:20):

And an email when it's -

Jim Orr (48:22):

Actually, sometimes it's a phone call when it's looking like it's not gonna be so good either. Yeah, it just depends. But yeah, we try to be very communicative to the filmmakers and to the senior staff to let them know exactly where we think we're headed even before we open. And then certainly communicate over the opening weekend and weekends and weeks to let them know where, what's working and where we think we're gonna be.

Kevin Goetz (48:40):

I have to say that most heads of studios, every one of them that I know, come in and they're onto the next thing Monday, good, bad, or otherwise. And I think that's very healthy because they know that everyone has done their very, very best. Their damnedest to get this out. And nobody makes decisions in vacuums. Would that be a fair -

Jim Orr (48:58):

No, 100%. Yeah. Comment? Listen, the business we've been discussing here is a very, very hard thing to do. People like Donald Langley and Peter Kramer are looking at black ink on white paper and deciding to make very big bets. 

Kevin Goetz (49:10):

Are you in those green light committees?

Jim Orr (49:12):

Yeah, absolutely. And I'm very grateful that they let me read the scripts and, you know, have a small voice here and there. But really, that's the job of Donna and Peter and people like that. 

Kevin Goetz (49:20):

From a distribution standpoint, what keeps you up at night?

*Jim Orr (49:22):

What keeps me up at night? I'm not sure there's too much that keeps me up at night. We just wanna simply win all the time. And so, and I might be slightly more competitive than most people perhaps. So that, you know, we just wanna do the very best with every single one of our films. We wanna just make sure we have just exploited it in every way possible and made the filmmakers feel like they're really getting the very best service that they possibly can get.

Kevin Goetz (49:46):

What happens in five years from now with Angel and the business?

Brandon Purdie (49:51):

We keep growing. We keep fighting.

Kevin Goetz (49:53):

What does keep growing mean?

Brandon Purdie (49:54):

Continuing to build the guild, the angel guild. The people who are voting -

Kevin Goetz (49:58):

Convert torches to movies. 

Brandon Purdie (50:00):

Yeah. And then just really relying on community. Like building this community of people who are interested in what we're building. And then also -

Kevin Goetz (50:06):

Building the two million to four million?

*Brandon Purdie (50:08):

Yeah. I mean, just continuing to grow. And then continuing to build a community of filmmakers who are interested in what we're doing and telling stories that are amplifying light and continuing to grow that. Always built around the theatrical. I mean, that's super important to Angel Studios and to what we're building is the theatrical experience because that's not only for the Angel Guild, but that's the communal experience where people are coming together and kind of meeting each other and having that theatrical experience - Right. That's super important that really fuels the rest of the work that we're doing. But I mean, we're, you know, we're three years in the theatrical space.

Kevin Goetz (50:39):

What are your biggest threats? What's nipping at your heels? What makes you nervous?

*Brandon Purdie (50:44):

I mean, I think we're mostly focused on opportunity and success, you know, just looking forward and building. But I mean, I think always human apathy is the biggest threat to everything in theatrical.

Kevin Goetz (50:55):

But your audience is giving their opinions constantly, so it's not like it's gonna just come up on you. You know, you know where things are heading. 

Brandon Purdie (51:04):

And we're a data-driven company. Angel started as a tech company and, uh, as a data company. So, I mean, we're looking at stuff all the time. Like, I came in the day after Sound of Freedom opened. It opened on a Monday. So I came in the following Monday. 

Kevin Goetz (51:16):

You opened a movie on a Monday? 

Brandon Purdie (51:17):

Well, like, the early showings. July 4th was on a -

Kevin Goetz (51:20):

Oh, got it, because of July 4th. Got it. 

Brandon Purdie (51:21):

But I remember coming in and thinking that we were gonna be celebrating this major win. And I walked in and everybody. Uh, you woulda though we didn't win. I mean, because everybody was in conference rooms working and trying to figure things out. 

Kevin Goetz (51:34):

Well, that's what I'm saying. Then it was onto the next fire, or hopefully the next success. And

Brandon Purdie (51:38):

Honestly, I was in meetings where they're like, "We probably could've done more. Probably could've made more had we done this and have we done that?" And they're solving it.

Kevin Goetz (51:45):

Can't audiences also invest in your movies? Can't your guild members? Early

Brandon Purdie (51:49):

On, that was more of the model. 

Kevin Goetz (51:51):

Now, not so much. 

Brandon Purdie (51:52):

Now it's more voting and deciding kind of what is the film -

Kevin Goetz (51:55):

You'll actually not make a movie because the audience is not digging it. 

Brandon Purdie (51:58):

Well, I mean, we've had movies, and I wouldn't say names, because we wanna be fair to filmmakers. But, you know, we've had films from sizable filmmakers with sizable casts the executive team's excited about, and the team's excited about, that goes in and it doesn't score high enough. It doesn't score well enough, and we don't release it.

Kevin Goetz (52:14):

Do you do torches on those movies too? 

Brandon Purdie (52:16):

Well, some come in as torches, some come in as finished films. I see.

Kevin Goetz (52:19):

And you'll show the finished film to a subset of your folks. They'll vote.

Brandon Purdie (52:23):

High security, yeah.

Kevin Goetz (52:25):

That's what I'm saying.

Brandon Purdie (52:25):

Yeah.

Kevin Goetz (52:26):

How many people, for example, will look at a film? 

Brandon Purdie (52:29):

Just until it gets to statistical significance. Once we feel like the data is there and the, the voting, they get asked two questions. Does this story amplify light? And how disappointed would you be if this movie was never made or never released in the theater? 

Kevin Goetz (52:40):

Those are two questions. You don't say, "Would you recommend it or would you see it or anything like that?" Wow. So are we on brand? 

Brandon Purdie (52:47):

Yeah. And then how disappointed would you be if this movie was never made or never released? 

Kevin Goetz (52:52):

And those two metrics give you your answers. Fascinating. Jim, last question here. Where are we in five years with distribution? What do you see changing most?

Jim Orr (53:02):

Domestically, there will probably be fewer theaters. 

Kevin Goetz (53:05):

To the tune of, what, consolidation? 10%? 

Jim Orr (53:08):

10 to 15%, I would think. 

Kevin Goetz (53:09):

Yeah, that's my theory as well.

Jim Orr (53:10):

Smaller towns to begin with or smaller venues in very expensive parts of the world. So for example, like the little town I grew up in, that theater was gone decades ago. Oh. There's just the population just-

Kevin Goetz (53:22):

Oh, you mean those are the ones that will probably-

*Jim Orr (53:22):

Probably go. See the. Yeah. Or if you've got a small theater that is in a very high priced market or things like that, you're gonna get squeezed out there as well. We're already seeing some of that. I think there'll be even more better PLF screens, premium large format screens, whether they be IMAX or Dolby or Exhibitor branded. I think there'll be more experiential things in theaters, like the 40X and the environmental screens, the ScreenX, DBox and stuff like that.

Kevin Goetz (53:46):

You mean so you can feel as though you're there? They're there,

Jim Orr (53:48):

Yeah. And then - Experientially, yeah. Another thing that seems to be growing that I don't think is gonna stop are entertainment centers. So a theater is a part of a larger entertainment business. 

Kevin Goetz (53:57):

100%. Could not agree with you more. 

Jim Orr (53:59):

Bowling, restaurants, you name it. 

Kevin Goetz (54:00):

Yeah. A destination. 

Jim Orr (54:01):

A destination. Yeah. Absolutely. In essence, replacing the mall from back in the day. 

Kevin Goetz (54:05):

You gonna bid on IMAX? 

Jim Orr (54:06):

I don't make that kind of money. <laugh>

Kevin Goetz (54:09):

Because it's such an important part of our business, those big screens. You guys are terrific. I so enjoyed having you both here. Brandon, thank you so much. Jim, you're like, <foreign>. You know, we go back so long. Jim's like, "I don't know what that means."

Jim Orr (54:24):

Sounded good.

Kevin Goetz (54:25):

It means family. 

Jim Orr (54:26):

Thanks for having us. Yeah, thank you.

Kevin Goetz (54:28):

Absolutely. Thanks, guys. To our listeners, I hope you enjoyed this conversation. For more insights into filmmaking, audience testing, and the business of Hollywood, I invite you to check out my books, Audienceology, and How to Score in Hollywood at Amazon, or through my website at KevinGoetz360.com. You can also follow me on my social media. Next time on Don't Kill the Messenger, I'll be joined by the prolific producer and industry visionary, Roy Lee. Until then, I'm Kevin Goetz. And to you, our listeners, I appreciate you being part of the movie-making process. Your opinions matter.

Host: Kevin Goetz
Guests: Jim Orr and Brandon Purdie
Producer: Kari Campano
Writers: Kevin Goetz, Darlene Hayman, and Kari Campano
Audio Engineer: Gary Forbes (DG Entertainment)