Podcast: Don't Kill the Messenger with Movie Research Expert Kevin Goetz
Guest: Graham King

Interview Transcript:

Announcer (00:03):

From script to screen, every film is brought to life by visionary creatives and executives, all sharing one mission to captivate the audience. Hosted by award-winning movie strategist Kevin Goetz, our podcast, Don't Kill the Messenger, offers a filmmaking masterclass through intimate conversations with Hollywood's most influential voices. And now, your host, Kevin Goetz.

Kevin Goetz (00:29):

Today is a very special show, our 100th... I can't even believe it. And I can't think of anyone more fitting to join me than my very first guest on this podcast, Oscar-winning producer Graham King. Over the course of his career, Graham has produced some of the most acclaimed and successful films of the past few decades, including The Departed, The Aviator, Argo, Blood Diamond, The Town, Hugo, and Bohemian Rhapsody. Collectively, his films have received 61 Academy Award nominations. Throughout that remarkable career, Graham has taken on projects that demand passion, persistence, and often, and I know this is a fact, years of commitment. His latest, Michael, is one of those films. And his connection to the Jackson family goes back decades. Graham, what can I say? My dear friend, welcome back to my show, and thank you so much for doing the 100th episode.

Graham King (01:38):

It's amazing. 100. I remember the first one.

Kevin Goetz (01:41):

It was four years ago, and it was remote. Right. And you didn't even hesitate. And I said, because of you and your stature, people followed suit thereafter and I got some great guests and have continued to get great guests. <laugh> So you kicked it off my friend. Amazing. I love that. And here he is. Now I wanna also tell listeners that you are immersed in several projects right now. And so when you get into your zone, it's very difficult to get you out of that zone, which makes you such a great producer. And you did that for me and for the show. And I thank you for that also.

Graham King (02:18):

You're so welcome. And maybe this is a good segue to thank you for everything you've done. I know I forgot people at the premiere and you happen to be one of them, but you're - Really? You forgot me. You are someone that I always lean on for so many different reasons, personal and business. And always take your guidance, whether it's a cut of a movie or should I do a movie, period.

Kevin Goetz (02:44):

In the first place.

Graham King (02:44):

Right.

Kevin Goetz (02:45):

Well, I remember, Graham, four or five years ago, you came over to my house and you said, "I'm about to show you something." It was a video of Jaafar and I was gobsmacked. And you knew that I was gonna react that way. You had to because he was a doppelganger of his uncle. And oh my God, did that ever work out? <laugh>

Graham King (03:09):

I have to tell you, buddy, I came over to you that evening. It was like a Saturday night or something.

Kevin Goetz (03:15):

Yeah, it was a dinner party. Just the four of us, right?

Graham King (03:17):

Yeah. Exactly. But during the day, if you remember, I had gone to Katherine Jackson's house and showed her that footage because if she would've given me the thumbs down, I'm not moving forward.

Kevin Goetz (03:32):

Wow.

*Graham King (03:33):

I really wanted her to bless this first hair and makeup test. Literally, when I look back in my career, Kevin, it's gotta be in the top five. I sat next to Michael's mother and his sister, Rebbie, and showed them the footage of Katherine's grandson. And she just sat there. And it's not what she said afterwards. It was her reaction during. What was the reaction? Very emotional. Almost to where I though, maybe I shouldn't have done this because maybe I'm gonna kinda set her back. You know, she's an old lady and she's got her health issues. But I really needed her to get her eyes on it before I moved forward. 

Kevin Goetz (04:17):

And what did she say right after?

*Graham King (04:19):

She just said, "That's Michael right there."

Kevin Goetz (04:21):

Oh.

Graham King (04:21):

And that was all she had to say.

Kevin Goetz (04:23):

Oh.

Graham King (04:23):

And it was a highly emotional moment. And then we came over to you and it was more of a celebrational version of it.

Kevin Goetz (04:31):

<laugh> And I think we did have a few glasses of scotch and, and cigars, if I recall. <laugh> Good Cuban cigars. Right. Graham, there are one million and one reasons why this movie shouldn't have been made, couldn't have been made, but for the fact that you were its producer and champion. And I'm not blowing smoke up your ass. You know how much I know about the beginnings and the gestation of this thing and the rights and the galvanizing and how in hell did you bring Michael to the screen? <laugh>

Graham King (05:04):

So after Bohemian Rhapsody, I had a lot of artists come to me about making their story. And I think part of that was the rebirth of the IP, the success of Bohemian. And I really though about what's next for me. And going back to my early days in California when I was pumping gas in Sherman Oaks and a Rolls Royce drives in and out pops Jermaine Jackson.

Kevin Goetz (05:29):

Who was Jermaine with?

*Graham King (05:30):

Jermaine was with his first wife, Hazel, Berry Gordy's daughter at the time. And Jermaine had just come out with a song around that era called Let's Get Serious. And I love that song. And being the young cocky company working in this gas station in Sherman Oaks. Yes, it was at the end of 82. I went up to Jermaine and I just started humming the song, not really thinking about anything. And he smiled and he's very shy, like all the Jacksons. They have such a shyness to them. And I just said, "I love that song and I love your family." And I couldn't believe that I'm standing literally next to Jermaine Jackson. He was about to get in his car. I'd put gas in his car, washed his windows. And he about to get in his car and he stopped for a minute and he said, "Um, Graham, what are you doing on Saturday?" And I said, "Not much, Ryan." He said, "Me and my brothers play softball in Balboa Park. Would you like to come and join us?" I remember I was living with my sister at the time and I went home and I was going out that night and I said to my sister, you know, this was before cell phones. I said, "I'm going out. If Jermaine Jackson calls, take a message." And she said, "You're effing delusional. Jermaine Jackson's not calling you." I get home, Kevin, she's staring at the wall. Just blank stare at the wall. And she said, "Jermaine Jackson called." He said three o'clock on Saturday.

Kevin Goetz (06:49):

Oh my God. Right? Well, first of all, the fact that he called, of course, crazy. Mm-hmm. But the fact that had he not had that thought, we may not be sitting here talking about this movie.

Graham King (07:01):

100%.

Kevin Goetz (07:03):

That one moment.

Graham King (07:05):

That one moment. So I was at the park. I'm talking to Jermaine. I remember I was standing by the street. 

Kevin Goetz (07:11):

Were you Nervous about going?

Graham King (07:11):

I was excited. I was too naive to be nervous in a way. 

Kevin Goetz (07:15):

But you were also 21 years old and how the hell did you know how to play softball? You're from the UK.

*Graham King (07:20):

I had no idea what softball was. None. So I show up at the park, I'm talking to Jermaine, and I see out the corner of my eye, Michael Jackson walking towards us. Now, Off the Wall had just come out, right? He was Michael Jackson. And just like everyone else on the planet, I was a huge, huge fan. And Jermaine's talking to me. I'm not listening to what he's saying. I'm just thinking, how am I gonna greet Michael Jackson when he comes over? So he walked over and Jermaine said, "I want you to introduce you to my friend Graham." And he turned to me with that incredible smile of his and he smiles with his eyes and he said, "Graham, guess what?" And I said, "What?" And he tapped me on the shoulder and said, "You're it." And he ran off. He just ran off. So I looked at Jermaine, I said, "Do I chase him?" And Jermaine said, "That's our Michael. You'll get used to it. Just leave him. It's all good." And that was my intro.

Kevin Goetz (08:20):

Okay. How did you fare at that game, by the way?

Graham King (08:23):

I think I struck out three times. <laugh> 

Kevin Goetz (08:25):

Did you play it outfield or?

Graham King (08:27):

I was actually playing first base.

Kevin Goetz (08:29):

Oh my God.

Graham King (08:30):

Which I didn't even know what first base meant.

Kevin Goetz (08:31):

That’s terrible because you gotta know how to catch, but you also know how to throw.

Graham King (08:35):

So Michael liked to be the catcher.

Kevin Goetz (08:37):

Who pitched?

Graham King (08:38):

Jermaine or Tito or they took turns. Jackie - 

Kevin Goetz (08:41):

And by the way, was it just the family and you?

Graham King (08:42):

It was the family, some of their friends and me because I had to make up a team. Exactly. They were, they were in a league.

Kevin Goetz (08:48):

They were in a league? 

Graham King (08:48):

Yeah. In fact, they played against the likes of Jon Feltheimer who was on the team with Les Moonves.

Kevin Goetz (08:53):

Get out of here.

Graham King (08:54):

Yeah, yeah. Yeah. 

Kevin Goetz (08:55):

They remember the story?

Graham King (08:56):

When I mentioned to John how I'd met the Jacksons, he said, "I was in that league."

Kevin Goetz (09:01):

My God.

Graham King (09:01):

But there was no paparazzi around. No one was taking any notice of them. And Michael, he was just one big kid. I mean, he would do cartwheels around the bases if he got a hit.

Kevin Goetz (09:13):

I always got that impression about him, that he was just a mischievous creature.

Graham King (09:19):

He made you feel good about life. He made you feel good about yourself. He instilled confidence in you without even trying.

Kevin Goetz (09:26):

He was a light.

*Graham King (09:27):

So much so. He would show up and <laugh> he would ask me if I had bought the new Super Soakers, and he would know the model numbers. And I would say to him, "Michael, you talk like they're Ferraris or Lamborghinis." He said, "These are better."

Kevin Goetz (09:40):

Oh, and they were for -

Graham King (09:41):

In fact, when I was in the gas station down the street, sometimes there'd be like a traffic jam. "What's going on? Oh, Michael Jackson throwing water balloons out into Ventura Boulevard.”

Kevin Goetz (09:51):

Did you then, after that game, get invited to the house and did you continue a relationship or was it a one-off?

Graham King (09:58):

Jermaine and I would continue a relationship. I was at the Victory Tour, the Dodger Stadium.

Kevin Goetz (10:03):

Which you created brilliantly.

Graham King (10:06):

Thank you. I was there that night when he quit.

Kevin Goetz (10:08):

Get out of here.

Graham King (10:09):

I was there that night.

Kevin Goetz (10:10):

You know, I'm very much about serendipity - uh-huh. And fortuitous moments and seizing moments that are presented to you. And this falls into that category. I though because you sucked at baseball, that was the end. <laugh>

*Graham King (10:24):

No. We've kept in touch a little bit, but you lose touch over the years, right? So cut to, I'm at the world premiere of This Is It, downtown LA. And I was with my daughter, Samantha, and we're at the after party. And of course, it wasn't really a celebration, right? It was still mourning Michael. But we're at the after party and Samantha said, "Dad, Jermaine Jackson's over there. Why don't you go say hi?" And I said, "You know, he just lost his brother. He's with his whole family. He's not gonna remember who I am." It was 20 years ago then, or whatever it was, 20 something years ago. And literally 15 minutes later, Kevin, I got a tap on the shoulder. I turned around and Jermaine said, "I cannot believe what you've done with your career. I followed you through the gas station to win an Academy Award." 

Kevin Goetz (11:11):

Had you already won the Oscar then?

Graham King (11:13):

Yeah.

Kevin Goetz (11:13):

Oh my God.

Graham King (11:14):

So he had been tracking me and I was like, "I'm not gonna talk to him." 

Kevin Goetz (11:18):

You were shy.

Graham King (11:18):

Yeah, I'm shy and humble, right? I just don't think of it like that.

Kevin Goetz (11:23):

You're a shy guy. It's very funny because you're a great raconteur, you're a great storyteller, you galvanize people, and yet, and I know this about you because we're friends, but there's a real introvert there.

*Graham King (11:37):

I've always been in the frame of mind of let the film do the talking, not me. No matter how much you get out in front of a film and talk about it, the audience are gonna see it. Let them make a judgment on your film and your work and your craft.

Kevin Goetz (11:54):

And you'll kill yourself to get there.

*Graham King (11:55):

Well, first of all, I had the greatest teacher one could ever have, you know, when I spent 12 to 13, 14 years with Martin Scorsese. And no one can teach you anything about film more than he can.

Kevin Goetz (12:07):

What did he teach you mostly?

*Graham King (12:08):

How to excite the audience. How to keep the thread narrative of a film going with so many fun characters around. How to deal with actors. No one on this planet could have taught me like he did. How to run a movie set. So many things, but his vision and his eye for film, storytelling, the layer of music, which is so important to him and important to me.And I'll tell you this, when I was nine years old, I got a gift from my parents. And years ago you'd get a record voucher to go to the store and buy a record. The first record I ever bought was the Glen Miller story.

Kevin Goetz (12:55):

That's insane.

Graham King (12:56):

Why? Now in a time when 1970 England, you know - 

Kevin Goetz (13:03):

Sure. It was the rise of rocka and roll.

Graham King (13:03):

Rock and roll and glam rock and everything because I had seen the film and I was so inquisitive of how they married music to drama.

Kevin Goetz (13:14):

That's so telling about your personality. Mm-hmm. That is such a great insight into who you are. I wanna mention that of all the people that I've ever worked with, I can mention Chris Meledandri is the guy who, funnily, we're very, very good friends and he's not done the show and he will come on the show.

Graham King (13:36):

Come on, Chris. <laugh>

Kevin Goetz (13:37):

Chris is a guy who takes on a project and he obsesses on that project and he has been successful, successful, successful, successful. That's his superpower. And I would say the same thing about you. I think you might be in development quietly on this, on this, and this, but when you commit to something, I've never seen tunnel vision or focus like you, Graham, truly. And I think that's your superpower.

*Graham King (14:11):

So to me, it's a combination. As I say, a lot of artists came to me after the success of Bohemian Rhapsody, and they've got to have the tools. The music catalog is what I look at first and how you can drive, how a music will drive the narrative story. You know, Bohemian Rhapsody was wonderful to underscore so much of their catalog. There was no score in that movie whatsoever. It was wall-to-wall Queen. I think we used one, one or two non-Queen songs to set a tone or whatever it was. But I insist on going through that catalog and utilizing it the best to tell a story.

Kevin Goetz (14:49):

Absolutely.

*Graham King (14:50):

So, you know, songs like Love of My Life from Freddie, having that playing in the background in a scene where Freddie's telling Mary. Michael's was harder to do, especially in this time of his story because his lyrics never matched the scene. So it was easier to take the lyrics out and just to have instrumental. But I look into that first and foremost. And again, my job is to not just make an entertaining movie to either show the world or introduce a young generation into these iconic artists, but it's to make the family proud. It's to make other people that worked around these people's lives proud. That means so much. I remember the first time Freddie has one family member alive and that's his sister, Kash. And on a Sunday morning in Soho, 8:30 in the morning, I screened her by Humian Rhapsody. I was so nervous.

(15:45):

It was just her and I in a theater. And she sat down and of course I positioned myself where I watched her watch the movie and I could see it. I could feel and see how much she was enjoying the story. And afterwards, she just broke down emotionally and she gave me the biggest hug, job done.

Kevin Goetz (16:05):

Parents are gone?

Graham King (16:06):

Parents are gone, yes.

Kevin Goetz (16:07):

So she really was the only living family member.

Graham King (16:11):

Yeah.

Kevin Goetz (16:11):

Wow.

Graham King (16:11):

Wow. And, you know, she came to set.

Kevin Goetz (16:13):

Did you have the same luck with the band members?

Graham King (16:17):

Well, Brian and Roger were involved from day one, obviously.

Kevin Goetz (16:20):

Well, not obviously. Smartly.

*Graham King (16:22):

Yeah. And it's always hard, right? Because you've got to separate what really happens to cinematic experience. People that I'm telling stories about, they never can see it objectively. So they're reading screenplays. "Oh, I wouldn't have said that. Oh, that didn't happen here. Tha didn't happen there. "And explaining to them from the get-go, you've got a documentary platform that you can tell every detail of every story, but this is a film. And the greatest example for me, Kev, was when I first sat with Queen, we were in a restaurant in West London, and it was Brian May, Roger Taylor, and, and Freddie's manager, Queen's manager, Jim Beach, who's called Miami Beach and was a character in the film. First question I asked," Are you okay if we portray that Freddie got diagnosed with AIDS before Live Aid? "'Cause in real life, it was right after. It was two years after Live Aid. And they looked at each other like, that's a strange first question. And they said," Yeah, we have no issues with that. "I said," Well, then we got a movie. "That's the hook.

Kevin Goetz (17:23):

Whoa.

Graham King (17:24):

If they would have said no, there's no movie for me.

Kevin Goetz (17:28):

Are you serious?

Graham King (17:29):

Yeah. Because you've got to have that third act moment. You've got to turn it into a film. And in order to do that, of course, everyone's life is a film, but you've got to have those moments.

Kevin Goetz (17:40):

Let me ask you something, because on that note, there was a crucial scene that I felt was crucial in the movie that was removed. It was a dream sequence, and I believe it was Freddie dreaming about all these guys he had been with. Right. And they're all around like a big circle.

Graham King (17:55):

Right.

Kevin Goetz (17:56):

And there was a gun, I think, or something, right? Right. Like a target. And it was very kind of dreamlike, but man, it definitely drove home the AIDS conversation.

Graham King (18:07):

Right.

Kevin Goetz (18:08):

Why'd you remove it?

Graham King (18:10):

It just didn't feel like that scene fit the tone of the movie.

Kevin Goetz (18:14):

Again, I just wanna - Yeah, yeah. Say to my listeners, even though you love the scene, you knew that for the movie and the context of this medium, it was not serving the bigger picture.

Graham King (18:29):

I actually had a little, let's just say, disagreement with Brian and Roger on that scene because they loved it. And I said, "That won't play into the 2018 audience we wanna play into that scene."

Kevin Goetz (18:44):

Right. Our relationship with AIDS is a completely different relationship.

Graham King (18:48):

But they said to me, rightfully so, but that was the time period of the story. And I said, "I know, but you've gotta find a balance." And the story was about, in order to respect Freddie, not about AIDS.

Kevin Goetz (19:03):

And I also wanna add something else, which was brilliant. You were building, if I recall now, a momentum in the movie.

Graham King (19:10):

Right.

Kevin Goetz (19:10):

And you were going toward this narrative and it just sort of stopped the movie.

Graham King (19:15):

It stopped the movie, and plus we had that amazing scene that was in the movie was the corridor scene. He's walking down the corridor and there's a sick guy. We couldn't have both. And that was the one to me, that grabbed me more emotionally than the other scene. The other scene sent a message, but a message that was good in 1988 or 1990, not so much in 2018.

Kevin Goetz (19:39):

Wow. That's kind of an amazing recall. You've used screening research super effectively in your career. <laugh> No, I mean, like, you've used it not to beat up a filmmaker that you're working with, but to learn and see how your vision and your filmmaker's vision is being fulfilled or not. And you're not afraid to say, "Let's listen to the audience. Let's leave it to the audience to tell us."

Graham King (20:08):

So I was sitting, I think 2001, two, right around that time, at Cinecittà Studios in Rome, having lunch with Mr. Martin Scorsese -

Kevin Goetz (20:18):

What picture were you on?

Graham King (20:19):

Shooting Gangs of New York.

Kevin Goetz (20:20):

Gangs of New York.

*Graham King (20:21):

And he told me how many times he likes to preview a movie and how important that is. Now, did he say he always listens to them? No, but not the point. The point is, he taught me that getting fresh eyes, getting somebody who's not in the film business, we spoke about this earlier, he does love to preview. I remember I would go to New York to see a color of the film. I would be checking in at the Mercer and the doorman said, "Oh, I saw a color of your movie, Gangs of New York." I'm like, "What, what, you did?"

Kevin Goetz (20:54):

I was at the preview last night or whatever. Right.

Graham King (20:56):

Oh, I love it. So I absolutely dedicate my career to him, and he taught me about previews. And there's a line in Bohemian Rhapsody where Freddie says, "We have to give the people what they want."

Kevin Goetz (21:08):

Oh, yeah.

*Graham King (21:09):

And a few times, as you know, I've fought against that. You yourself have told me, "Do not make this film. Do not make this film." And I've even gone, "Fuck it, I'm making it. I'll find the audience." You don't find an audience, especially in today's world. Years ago, you did maybe have a chance. So you can get stubborn and you can get passionate, and you can sit with the filmmaker that you both have the same vision, and they go the same way. You know, there's a lot of filmmakers in this town, and I tell them all the time, when I say the green light isn't the win.

Kevin Goetz (21:43):

What's the win?

Graham King (21:44):

It's the audience showing up. That's why we do what we do. Look, the critics that hated Bohemian Rhapsody, right? I mean, it's 62% Rotten Tomatoes or whatever. 

Kevin Goetz (21:54):

Yeah, but the audience score was 9.5

Graham King (21:56):

Look at the critics on Michael, what was it, 39%? I don't make movies for the New York Times, and I actually think these critics - 

Kevin Goetz (22:04):

Well, you actually have made them because some of your movies have received extraordinary reviews like The Departed.

Graham King (22:09):

Yes, but critics nowadays, they turn against you on anything commercial, poppy, and fun. Now, isn't that why we do what we do? We want people to celebrate, to come to the movie, to come to the movies, escapism, be entertained, not jamming some kind of political view down their throat.

Kevin Goetz (22:31):

No medicine.

Graham King (22:32):

No medicine. They've told us. So these critics that don't like commercial movies, or they pick every biopic about, the critics didn't critique the Michael movie. They critiqued Michael Jackson. It's a big difference, sir.

Kevin Goetz (22:46):

Absolutely.

*Graham King (22:47):

I remember I was at the world premiere of Bohemian Rhapsody, sitting on the stage as everyone had just left. And I'm looking at my phone and the reviews are coming in and they're negative after negative after negative. And I just, you know, that film took me 11 years to get made. It's still a hard bullet to swallow when you've worked so hard on a film and they just rip it apart. Brian May came up to me and he said, "What's wrong?" And I said, "Oh, I don't wanna get into it." He said, Graham, what's wrong? I can see it written over your face. Something's wrong. I said, "The critics just started coming in and they're reviewing this film." And he just looked at me and he was like, "Are you nuts? You portray in our film how much they hate us. They hated the song Bohemian Rhapsody. Let the general public have their word, and I guarantee you, you're gonna be happy."

Kevin Goetz (23:36):

And I can tell you that most people do not listen to critics or care about critics. There's only certain kinds of movies that still sort of have the need to have that critical response. 100%. But most don't. And most people, if you're looking at a Rotten Tomatoes, for example, look at the audience score more than they look at the critic score. When we come back, we'll continue our conversation with the inimitable Graham King. We'll be back in a moment. Listeners, the Motion Picture and Television Fund is a nonprofit charitable organization that supports working and retired members of the entertainment community. This wonderfully run organization offers assistance for living and aging with dignity and purpose in the areas of health and social services, including temporary financial assistance, case management, and residential living, and has been a crucial lifeline to thousands during and beyond critical times that our industry continues to experience. To learn more, visit mptf.com. Please join me in helping others in our industry during times of need. There are so many ways to offer support and get involved. Thank you.

(24:58):

We are back with Graham King. Graham, I wanna go back to Michael because I was originally gonna structure this interview and talk about Michael in the first half and then talk about your process in the second, but you can't talk about Michael without talking about your process and you can't talk about your process without talking about Michael. As I said, a million and one reasons why this movie was willed into existence. You thought you had everything buttoned up after years of negotiations with the family, some people agreeing to participate, others not agreeing to participate. Somehow you made it work and then you're shooting and you get a phone call.

Graham King (25:37):

Actually, we were editing. I get the phone call. It wasn't shooting. You were edit -

Kevin Goetz (25:41):

You were finished shooting.

Graham King (25:41):

We were finished shooting.

Kevin Goetz (25:43):

And what is that call?

Graham King (25:44):

That call was that unfortunately, the estate never had the rights to the part of the story we were telling.

Kevin Goetz (25:53):

In the second half -

Graham King (25:55):

Yes. Of the movie? In the second half of the film. But for me, it disrupted the whole film because it was the spine of the film. And I had a certain point of view from the first day I met John Branca -

Kevin Goetz (26:09):

John is the lawyer for Michael's estate.

Graham King (26:11):

He's the co-executor. Now the executive of Michael's estate. 

Kevin Goetz (26:15):

But of Michael's not of the Jacksons?

*Graham King (26:16):

No, no. Michael's. Got it. Completely separate. And I had this vision of a film in my head, and that vision came to a wonderful screenplay that John Logan wrote, and the studios loved this version of it, and off we went to shoot it. So to find out in post that we never had to write that story in the first place, unprecedented. But looking back at it, Kevin, was a gift from God.

Kevin Goetz (26:40):

Okay. It always is, isn't it? Nearly always. I'm looking at Theresa Cross across from you, who's your chief of marketing communications and a dear friend. And she's nodding away 100% it was a gift from God. But at the time, did your heart drop or did you just go, "Oh, well, we'll work it out?"

Graham King (27:02):

No, it was the most traumatic call I've ever had in the industry.

Kevin Goetz (27:06):

Wow.

Graham King (27:07):

Because I couldn't even see clearly for such a long time. I was in Europe and I didn't leave the hotel room for like a day and a half. I couldn't quite... Am I being punked? You know, is this a setup? Is there something else going on that I don't know about? Is there an issue with the family? I was trying to second guess because there's no way it could be as simple as no one checked a document, but that's what it was. No one checked a document.

Kevin Goetz (27:37):

Well, the document showed up, right?

Graham King (27:39):

Well, the document showed up, but a lawyer who worked for Michael in the '90s, and a big Michael fan, he came into John Branca's life recently during this time, and he asked to read the script. And when he read the script, he knew firsthand, because he had been part of that, Michael's legal team, he knew firsthand that we didn't have the right to tell that story.

Kevin Goetz (28:02):

But you have a chain of title that cleared.

Graham King (28:04):

Right.

Kevin Goetz (28:04):

And my guess is, is that insurance didn't cover very much.

Graham King (28:07):

No, it didn't.

Kevin Goetz (28:08):

Which means you had to go back and re-raise money to continue a new version of the movie.

Graham King (28:16):

Well, yeah. 

Kevin Goetz (28:17):

I mean, I just feel the pain. <laugh>

Graham King (28:20):

Yeah. It was a very dark three or four months for me.

Kevin Goetz (28:23):

Did you call John Logan like immediately and say, "How can we dig ourselves out of this?”

Graham King (28:27):

No, it wasn't an immediate call to John. It was more about thinking about the movie we've made, how I can change it without re-shooting the whole thing again.

Kevin Goetz (28:38):

Sure.

Graham King (28:40):

And protect the storytelling. And again, looking back, it was a gift from God. The world had changed during this time. And I though... I always struggled, and I said this publicly, to tell Michael's story in one movie is near enough impossible. So it gave me the ability to separate.

Kevin Goetz (29:01):

Breathing room.

*Graham King (29:02):

Right. And the Dodger Stadium moment was always a wonderful moment to end the film. From day one, when I sat with John Logan and told him about the Dodger Stadium moment, which a lot of people didn't know about, the fans of course knew that Michael got on that stage that night and basically ended the Jackson Five.

Kevin Goetz (29:22):

It’s the climax, isn't it?

Graham King (29:22):

100%. 

Kevin Goetz (29:23):

Because he announces his individuality, he announces his freedom, declares it to the world, and because he doesn't have this relationship with Joe, his dad played beautifully by Colman Domingo. Mm-hmm. My God, suddenly, he has to announce it to everyone and his father to hear it. 

Graham King (29:42):

It was so brilliant the way it was done. Well, his brothers actually had no idea. No one - Are you really serious? Bill Bray knew, Michael's head of security. Head of security,

Kevin Goetz (29:47):

Who was really a close, close friend.

Graham King (29:48):

Surrogate father type guy.

Kevin Goetz (29:50):

And beautifully portrayed in the movie.

*Graham King (29:52):

Yeah, Kevin. I'll just talk about the casting for a second. My daughter, Hayley, who works with me from day one came to me and said, "Colman Domingo would make a great Joe Jackson." And I literally wasn't being flippant about it, but I said, "We should be so lucky." Right? Because it is a tough role for an actor to play. In real life, he was worse than we portrayed him. His control of Michael, and I'll say that. But at the end of the day, Colman came along and it was like the dream of all dreams to have Colman Domingo and play the role like he did.

Kevin Goetz (30:30):

With contact lenses no less.

Graham King (30:31):

Oh my God. What I love, Kevin, is when you make a film and you can have a character and take his line of dialogue away and just give a look, which is so much more powerful, Colman in droves, he only had to look into that camera. The transition from Colman the person into Joe Jackson, the character was unbelievable to see every day. And did remind me a lot of the way Daniel Day-Lewis plays his characters.

Kevin Goetz (30:59):

Very interesting. Colman and I spent some time together recently at a dinner party and this was a big topic of discussion and he is so proud of the role.

Graham King (31:08):

So proud of it and so wonderful. You know, he goes out and he promotes the movie and supports the film and supports Juliano and Jaafar. And let's talk a minute about two guys who have never acted before, never been on a movie set before, playing our leads. And first of all, the studio, having the trust in my vision -

Kevin Goetz (31:30):

They didn't originally.

Graham King (31:31):

Right?

Kevin Goetz (31:31):

Correct?

*Graham King (31:32):

Well, originally everyone was like, "You'll never find Michael." And I get that. I was brushing that under the carpet thinking, "Let's find it into the story and then worry about who's playing him." But always at the back of my head is, "Can we ever really find someone that the audience will believe is Michael?" And this, Kevin, from day one of this project, which was right after I got involved right after Bohemian Rhapsody, it was always, "I'm not sure it'll ever happen, but it's worth looking into." And that would be one step after the other. Both my daughters were heavily doing research. Lydia was there with me the whole time. "Shall we, shalln't we? Well, let's try this and see if it works. And if it doesn't, we'll move on to something else. "So it kept going like that. And then one day I saw a little YouTube clip of a very young Jaafar Jackson singing with his father. And I watched it maybe 50 times in an hour. I kept watching it and watching it. I called Jermaine and I said," I wanna meet your son, Jaafar. "And he said," Why? "I said," None of your business. I just wanna meet with him. "And so Jaafar and I had lunch. 10 minutes into that lunch, I said," Jaafar, I met you when you were four or five years old. Your dad would bring you and your brother to my office. So we don't really know each other at all, but I'm a really straight shooter. I'm a really honest guy. And right now, I think you're auditioning to play your uncle. "And he looked at me and laughed and he said,"What are you nuts? "He's like," I'm not an actor. I have no aspirations to act. "And I just said," Okay, "and brushed it off and got on with my lunch. We're just talking, making small talk, talking about his uncle and his family. He's talking about films that I've made. 10 minutes later I said," Jaafar, put your knife and fork down, look me in the eye and tell me again, you are not auditioning right now to play your uncle. Because I can feel something so strong, I literally cannot like even think about anything right now except for the aura you're giving me is Michael. "And what's so funny, Kevin, is Jaafar was the exact same age when I met Michael in the park. And it was that same feeling.

Kevin Goetz (33:48):

You just totally penetrated my soul with that story. I'm gonna tell you, I could see it happening. I could hear him. I can hear you. Wow. How'd you discover the little boy?

Graham King (34:00):

<laugh> Juliano came in for an audition.

Kevin Goetz (34:03):

He’s unbelievable. Remember you had a private screening for me and Juliano was there with his mom. And at the end of the screening, I took some footage on my phone because he went to the front of the theater and started doing the moonwalk. I was like, "Wow, this kid's amazing." I was so taken with this kid. He's so likable. So terrific.

Graham King (34:24):

And the camera loves him.

Kevin Goetz (34:25):

Loves him.

Graham King (34:26):

Again, these guys have never acted before a day in their lives.

Kevin Goetz (34:30):

Didn't that scare the shit out of you?

*Graham King (34:32):

Oh my, every day. I remember the first hair and makeup test with Juliano. What I do is I put them in the hair and makeup and just put music on and let them go. He had no idea how to move to the young Jackson Five songs. He knew Smooth Criminal, he knew Billie Jean, he knew Thriller, and he's so much energy. You have to really unplug him for a minute because the energy that that kid would bring... And it was incredible. I remember that day doing that. I said, "Juliano, I'm putting on Michael's music from the Jackson Five days, the Motown days. I don't need you to dance right now. You're not auditioning to dance. I just need you in this hair and makeup, but I wanna create the atmosphere." I said, "If you behave yourself, I'll pull on Smooth Criminal and you go for it." So he was unbelievable, Kevin.

(35:28):

And again, we're all storytellers. We're all in this business. You get two actors showing up to play the king of pop and they've got zero experience.

Kevin Goetz (35:39):

How scared was Jaafar and how much psychological work did you need to clear his head? Because those are shoes that - Mm. And he didn't know it was gonna turn out to be the highest grossing biopic in movie history. No way, no how.

*Graham King (35:55):

No. And nor would he think that way. He had such a air of confidence about him later in the process. But at the beginning, I called him up and I would do things like, "Can you get in your car, go on the freeway and hum this to him for me because I'm thinking about a scene with Michael driving on the freeway." Then I would call up and say, "Could you do this and do that?" This was after he had agreed to go for it. I also said to him, "Please don't tell your family what we're doing because I don't wanna set you up to fail. You have a very big famous family and I don't wanna embarrass you or think I'm using you. This is not because of your last name that I'm doing this. It's because..."

Kevin Goetz (36:43):

Well, his last name got him in the room.

Graham King (36:45):

Well, definitely got that, but there's so much of him that was Michael. 

Kevin Goetz (36:49):

I said he won the part.

Graham King (36:51):

Oh, hands down. 'Cause I auditioned all over the globe. I auditioned 190 impersonators because I said to Jaafar, I can never leave any stone unturned. 

Kevin Goetz (37:00):

Including the Broadway cast.

Graham King (37:02):

Yeah, the Broadway cast, it was great. Miles was wonderful, but he's not Michael close up. And it would be hard for anyone to match Jaafar. Now I had like a starting point that was so high.

Kevin Goetz (37:14):

We also had a lot of CGI on the nose because the nose is so specific with Michael at various times.

Graham King (37:23):

Right.

Kevin Goetz (37:24):

And that was in some weird way how I knew the movie was so good early on because despite the fact that these effects weren't in and that Bubbles was a CGI of a kid to a chimp, you were taken out of the movie slightly, but the fact that people were still investing emotionally was really something.

Graham King (37:44):

Again, I go back to Rami Malek. It was Freddie Murphy, right? 

Kevin Goetz (37:48):

Didn't he have a prosthetic teeth?

Graham King (37:49):

Yes, he did. He had to have an - 

Kevin Goetz (37:52):

Because he had such a pronounced jaw.

Graham King (37:54):

Right. It enhanced his performance because it made you feel sympathetic the way his mouth movement was.

Kevin Goetz (38:00):

And what was interesting about the nose in Michael is because the nose symbolized a very vulnerable area that Joe would call out and criticize him for as if his nose was always too big and he felt not attractive.

Graham King (38:15):

I think a big part of it was that, but the other part of it is this was something he could do in his life that Joe couldn't control. Ooh. And that scene where Joe catches him -

Kevin Goetz (38:25):

I love... When he's coming up -

Graham King (38:27):

Yeah. 

Kevin Goetz (38:27):

With the bandage and he says, "Hey, Michael." And he turns around and he's got the bandage. I love that scene.

Graham King (38:32):

My sinuses, he says. 

Kevin Goetz (38:33):

Yeah, I know.

Graham King (38:34):

Jaafar, again, look at the dramatic scenes of this film and look how he not once impersonated his uncle. He embodied him and there's such a big difference.

Kevin Goetz (38:45):

Which is so hard, especially for a first timer. Did Antoine do a lot of work with him as well?

Graham King (38:51):

Antoine worked with him. I spent three years religiously meeting with Jaafar, going through scenes, getting him an acting coach or two or three, running scenes. They would put scenes on video and send them to me. All this was before I had a studio involved. I did so much work on the come.

Kevin Goetz (39:10):

I remember.

Graham King (39:10):

Right. 

Kevin Goetz (39:11):

And then when you did... By, by the way, when you finally got Adam Fogelson was the first one that really came and stepped up to the plate. 

Graham King (39:16):

Yeah. I mean, it was Joe Drake, um, before Adam and Jon Feltheimer that took the relief, you know, my good friend Peter Schlessel and I and Joe Drake went out for dinner one night. Well, to be honest, we went to Vegas one night and we had dinner there and I started talking about the Michael movie. Sony had a first look and they didn't wanna make the film. 

Kevin Goetz (39:38):

Because of the music label?

Graham King (39:39):

Yes. Well, because of This Is It.

Kevin Goetz (39:41):

Uh-huh.

Graham King (39:42):

And they passed on the film. And it wasn't easy setting up a Michael Jackson movie.

Kevin Goetz (39:46):

Especially domestically.

Graham King (39:47):

Yes. 100% in the US was a bigger issue. But, you know, Kevin, I get relentless and I believed -

Kevin Goetz (39:54):

Like no one I've ever seen. <laugh> I'm just trying to say. And thank God for that. But you were able to put together a joint deal to share the risk, Lionsgate domestically and Universal internationally, and boy are they happy. Who on earth would think that this movie would surpass $1 billion after you had already made 900 plus million dollars with Bohemian Rhapsody? So the pressure on you must have been like off the chart.

Graham King (40:27):

Yeah. I mean, I, I thrive with drama and pressure.

Kevin Goetz (40:29):

You left it all there. You left it all. <laugh> I was gonna say on the screen. Right. But you left it all in the room, all through that whole process. Right. That was your blood, sweat, and tears. There's no question about it.

Graham King (40:42):

Thank you. The Broadway show, as we all know, is very successful. But that's so much different. That's about the music and the catalog being right there in front of you. And anyone who's everyone can't resist Michael Jackson songs. There's no question. He's touched everyone on this planet through his music. The film obviously then takes on another life and to carve a three-act structure out was so hard to do, but I always go to this place that I'm being driven by another force. Ooh. How do I meet Jaafar? How do things fall into place the way you do - 

Kevin Goetz (41:23):

What's that other force, you think?

*Graham King (41:24):

Oh, it's the spirit of Michael. I used to say for years that Freddy is throwing hurdles at me and he's not gonna be satisfied until- Until you get it right. He'll tell me when I get it right. Oof. I was in pre-production with that film in 2014 with Amy Pascal at Sony, and it was supposed to be Ben Wishaw playing Freddie Mercury. And I got up one day, and quite honestly, Kevin, I didn't believe in the script anymore. I wasn't feeling it. And you get one shot at this.

Kevin Goetz (41:55):

That is true and utter conviction because how many people would walk away from a development deal with the actual work that you've put into it up to this point because your inner voice, your driving spiritual guide is telling you - 100%. Walk away. Wow. 

Graham King (42:13):

I know to your listeners it sounds very, very corny, but I get so driven by that. There's things on Michael I cannot answer why. I just can't. It falls into place if it's meant to be.

Kevin Goetz (42:26):

Do you remember early, early on, and no one had really seen the movie yet in its full length, you invited me to Warner Brothers. Mm-hmm. And I believe it was just you and Lydia was one of the producers as well, right? Mm-hmm. I think it was just the three of us. Mm-hmm. And you showed me the movie. What do you remember about my reaction and so forth?

*Graham King (42:46):

You unconfused me. I was confused whether it was scenes or tone, storytelling-wise. Again, let's go back to previews on what you do best, better than anyone's ever done in this business and in this town. And you deserve all the kudos because you help every single filmmaker out, every single one, every studio. You are the voice of reason. I could not publicly preview this film. We, right? I said to you, "We cannot put a Michael Jackson film up. No matter what NDAs are gonna get signed, they're gonna talk about it." So that love of previewing and getting the audience reaction and getting that focus group to really hone in, I was really missing in this process, really missing. I remember we did Bohemian Rhapsody, and we would do blind previews, Scored 92, 93, whatever that was. And we would listen to a focus group, right? Sure. And what they say, "Well, I miss that in this. It made me so insecure to film." Everyone that were getting eyes on the film, and there was some major artists getting eyes on the film that was just loving it. And I'm saying to Hayley, Samantha, Lydia, whoever, they're placating because I was so insecure of where I was at because of this process of what happened with a rights issue. Right? I remember sitting with John Logan and I said, "What do artists hate the most?" In my experience, they hate confrontation. That's why they have agents and lawyers. Talent hates confrontation. So let's have Quincy Jones say to Michael, "How are you gonna tell your father about a solo album?" And Q, I'm not a kid anymore. I'm gonna look my father in the eye and tell him the truth. Cut two. I need you to tell my father about a solo album. That's how everything started. The Toy Shop scene, my mother's name was Pauline, and she loved Michael, and I wanted to pay some tribute to her. She's still with us? No, she's not. But that scene wasn't about a famous person in a toy shop. It's about the mother noticing and telling the kid, and the kid doesn't look up from its game because the kid doesn't really care who Michael Jackson is. He cares about this new game he's got in his hands, and he only connects with Michael when Michael starts talking to him.

Kevin Goetz (45:07):

Here's my recollection. Movie ends, and I cried. And I turned to you and I said, "I am so proud of you." Right. And then I said, "It hasn't found its center yet, but it will get there and it will be enormously successful because I said to you, the DNA is there."

Graham King (45:29):

I remember.

Kevin Goetz (45:30):

And of course, the movie opened with this big concert scene.

Graham King (45:34):

Mm-hmm.

Kevin Goetz (45:35):

And everything in my being said, "This is the wrong way to start this picture." That, I think, was about feeding your insecurity that we've got to grab them right at the front rather than easing into the picture from Gary, Indiana, and showing us more linearly how this was unfolding.

Graham King (45:53):

Yeah.

Kevin Goetz (45:53):

That was a big one for you, wasn't it?

*Graham King (45:55):

Well, yeah, it was. And I've seen a lot of comments about, you know, Graham King's bios always start with the artist backstage, right? <laugh> It's like Freddie Mercury and Michael Jackson. I have to tell you, it's hard for me. 475 people worked on this film and 475 people put their heart and soul into it. So it takes more than just one person. But the team of Antoine, having the fortunate luck, and I will say luck, to get John Ottman to come in and edit room, which he hadn't gone in since Bohemian Rhapsody, and John should be directing movies rather than editing movies.

Kevin Goetz (46:31):

So should you, my friend.

Graham King (46:32):

But he, thank you, came in and with fresh eyes, someone who wasn't into it, he's not a super Michael fan. He loves Michael, but he's not a super fan. He came

Kevin Goetz (46:43):

Back for you.

*Graham King (46:44):

Well, he came back for me and he came back for Michael. And he came back to heighten the footage that was shot. An editor has to get that director's footage and get the best version out possible. And that's what he did. When I showed him that opening that you're talking about, he had the exactly same thought. And he said, "I can feel you're being scared and insecure. That's why you wanna start the movie this way." And then we both kinda discussing the film and we both found this “wanna be startin somethin” thread of a song that went all the way through the movie.

Kevin Goetz (47:20):

Like a leitmotif.

Graham King (47:22):

Exactly. And John, John's good friend, um, knew Michael's music very well and rearranged that song to fit the narrative of the film. And once we did that, things fell into place.

Kevin Goetz (47:36):

100%. And then we had that huge invited screening where you invited so many folks too. And that was another seminal point - Right. Because there were some very formidable people in that audience. Mm-hmm. A few heads of studios, et cetera, et cetera. Yeah. And you listened and they filled out questionnaires, and you took that and went to the next level. And so by the time I had seen it, I think we might've shown it at my house again, but then we showed it with Juliana at Universal and Neil and I turned to each other and just said, "Holy shit." And Schlessel was there as well. And we were all just like, "This is golden." But in my wildest dreams, I never thought that it would surpass Bohemian Rhapsody. Graham, I guess, as our time comes to an end here and I could talk to you for hours, is there gonna be a part two?

(48:31):

<laugh>

Graham King (48:33):

Uh, we'll see.

Kevin Goetz (48:35):

Oh, I hope so. 

Graham King (48:35):

We'll see. <laugh>

Kevin Goetz (48:36):

So many of us hope so.

Graham King (48:38):

I really - A lot of biopics of, you know... Bohemian set a trend of the biopic business was back, right? And there was a lot of biopics made, whether it was Whitney Houston and so on and so forth. It didn't work. It's not just about a part two, but can we recreate and give the audience the satisfaction? There's not part two because, oh, it's Michael Jackson and let's just jump on that bandwagon.

Kevin Goetz (49:04):

And that's not a cash play.

Graham King (49:06):

That's what I'm saying. It's not a money grab.

Kevin Goetz (49:08):

If after this interview, folks, you don't believe Graham when he says that if he can't crack it, it ain't happening. I believe you. I know that to be true. So I'm praying that you do crack it in an organic way for you, and I'm thrilled for you having done Michael. I'm extremely excited about other things you have in the hopper, like Jersey Boys with Nick Jonas, and you also have the Bee Gees movie, which you've been obsessed about for years. I can't wait for that. Mm-hmm. But you have given us such great entertainment and these great stories, and we're grateful to you for that.

Graham King (49:47):

So before we break, the introduction was wonderful, by the way, earlier. <laugh> But it reminded me, and I'm so excited that tomorrow is the 20th anniversary of the release date of The Departed.

Kevin Goetz (49:59):

It's been 20 years?

Graham King (50:01):

20 years.

Kevin Goetz (50:02):

I don't know if I'm excited about that or terrified.

Graham King (50:04):

<laugh> Same.

Kevin Goetz (50:06):

Are they doing anything special for it?

*Graham King (50:08):

I'm not sure, but I'm just gonna say this. It was the hardest film I've ever produced.

Kevin Goetz (50:14):

Harder than Michael?

Graham King (50:15):

Oh, yeah. But the most memorable, and a film that I'm just so proud to be a part. And plug this. Martin Scorsese won his first Oscar for that film.

Kevin Goetz (50:26):

And so did you.

Graham King (50:28):

So did I, but I hadn't made a whole body of work that Marty had made, and my goal was to be the producer on a film that he finally gets to win that statue.

Kevin Goetz (50:38):

Oh, wow. 

*Graham King (50:39):

I'm gonna say this. So my satisfaction on the whole process of Michael, seeing on social media people showing up at the cinema and dancing, enjoying themselves and having fun, that's enough for me. That was, to me, I can't put it into words, Kevin, how much that meant to me to see an audience in Brazil, China, Japan, Europe, just show up and enjoy the film for what it is and be entertained and laugh and cry and then dancing at the end with the end credit music. I mean, that was, again, that's higher than any award. It doesn't... It's not a financial thing. It's just complete satisfaction that the seven years haven't been a waste.

Kevin Goetz (51:27):

Would you make a commitment to me right now that you'll come back for the 200th episode and tell us, and hopefully we'll be speaking about another Michael, but we'll be speaking about hopefully three or four other movies that you have. Graham King, thank you, my friend and the great artist you are for coming on today.

Graham King (51:47):

You're so welcome.

Kevin Goetz (51:52):

To our listeners, I hope you enjoyed this conversation. For more insights into filmmaking, audience testing, and the business of Hollywood, I invite you to check out my books, Audienceology, and How to Score in Hollywood. You can also follow me on my social media. Next time on Don't Kill the Messenger, I'll be joined by the manager and producing team, Brian Medavoy and Erwin More. Until then, I'm Kevin Goetz. And to you, our listeners, I appreciate you being part of the movie-making process. Your opinions matter.

Host: Kevin Goetz
Guest: Graham King
Producer: Kari Campano
Writers: Kevin Goetz, Darlene Hayman, and Kari Campano
Audio Engineer: Gary Forbes (DG Entertainment)