Podcast: Don't Kill the Messenger with Movie Research Expert Kevin Goetz
Guest: Gerry Rich

Interview Transcript:

Announcer (00:03):

From script to screen, every film is brought to life by visionary creatives and executives, all sharing one mission: to captivate the audience. Hosted by award-winning movie strategist Kevin Goetz, our podcast, Don't Kill the Messenger, offers a filmmaking masterclass through intimate conversations with Hollywood's most influential voices. And now, your host, Kevin Goetz.

Kevin Goetz (00:29):

One of the unique challenges of marketing movies is that every film comes with a ticking clock. Each release presents a new story to sell, an audience to reach, and a limited window to convince people that this is the movie they need to see now. Unlike traditional brands that can build customer loyalty over years, movie marketers often have just weeks to turn awareness into ticket sales. That makes movie marketing an unusually fast-paced, high-stakes business. Few people understand that challenge better than my guest today, Gerry Rich. Gerry is one of Hollywood's most accomplished movie marketing executives with a career spanning the Gordon Weaver Company, Columbia Pictures, Miramax, MGM United Artists, Paramount Pictures, and Amazon MGM Studios. He's marketed everything from independent hits like The Crying Game and Leaving Las Vegas to Mean Girls, and global blockbusters like Iron Man and the James Bond films GoldenEye, and No Time to Die. He was also named by Ad Age as one of the top 100 marketers in America. His new book, Chasing Hollywood: A Marketing Chief's Lessons on Breaking Through, takes us through the triumphs, the failures, and defining moments of a really remarkable career. Gerry, really great to have you on my show.

Gerry Rich (02:01):

Thank you for having me. Always good to see you.

Kevin Goetz (02:04):

We have been buddies, colleagues in each other's lives for over three decades. Mm-hmm. I can't tell you how many of the movies when I read the book, I -

Gerry Rich (02:16):

You were there.

Kevin Goetz (02:16):

Understood very, very well.

Gerry Rich (02:19):

My first memory of you was back in the 80s when I was at Columbia Pictures under Dawn Steel. And I remember you were doing a lot of our focus groups and -

Kevin Goetz (02:29):

Well, you mentioned Dan Michel.

Gerry Rich (02:30):

And Dan Michel was, uh, the one who brought me in as head of marketing, but that's my earliest memory of you. And man, you have not stopped and that you still can get so excited and love the business so much as you do.

Kevin Goetz (02:44):

Well, thank you so much. A movie, unlike most products, has a launch of weeks, maybe four to six weeks. I mean, of course a trailer might be out six months before, a teaser may be out a year before, but by and large, the 90 plus percent of the campaign - Yeah. Is done four to six weeks before. What other product category does that and has a shelf life of only four to six weeks in its theatrical shelf life?

*Gerry Rich (03:09):

Yeah. When I first started getting into this business, we would liken it to a retail sale. And the department stores used to have their white sales and the big department store sales were the Friday through Sunday, and there was this two-day, three-day push to create that urgency. So it had kind of a retail mentality. It's not a brand product. Brands sell their products 52 weeks a year. But the retail kind of mentality to drive sales over a very short, condensed period of time is something like what we do in film, but it's definitely changed. We have now truncated the media exponentially because of attention spans, the way people consume media, the fact that your frequency buys have to happen to really light that fire. So more now than ever, our media is much closer to opening weekend, the percentage of media.

Kevin Goetz (04:00):

Does the 30 second spot have any relevance anymore?

Gerry Rich (04:03):

It does. You still have YouTube and you have places to go with that on digital. And I still think there's a play for linear television in some cases.

Kevin Goetz (04:10):

Live sports, certainly. 

Gerry Rich (04:12):

Live sports more than anything. That's a mass audience you can't capture in any other way.

Kevin Goetz (04:16):

Can you create reach and frequency in digital campaigns or is that not there yet?

*Gerry Rich (04:22):

No, I think you can do it. I think you could do it in, in a different way and it's a different strategy than what we would do, let's say with linear. With linear, we might have an event show. It might be the Super Bowl. It might be the playoff games. It might be an award show where you have that and maybe surround it with some media to get that reach and frequency, you could buy frequency around that too. In digital, I think it's a little bit different. You can certainly buy frequency and try to capture multiple impressions with a given audience. I think what you could do are some high impact activations to get that reach. One, for example, would be TikTok. And TikTok has what they call the prime view so that when you first go on the app, the first thing that you see is an ad served. And if you buy something like that, that is a way of getting your reach in masses. You might get 40 some odd million in a very short period of time against your audience, impressions against your audience. So I think you can do both.

Kevin Goetz (05:21):

Do you still need to have X number of impressions to drive engagement? You're lucky if you grab them right off the bat, right, and hold on for dear life.

Gerry Rich (05:31):

Yeah, I think it's more difficult than ever because I think we live in this world where people have their finger on the skip button as they're doom scrolling. And I think these decisions are really impulsive, instinctive, and fraction of a second whether they're gonna engage with the material or not. But I think rather than looking at points like we used to do, did we have 1200 points against our audience and so forth, I think you have to look at it as more of a gestalt. At least that's how I see it. And that is, what are these moments where we, at the right time, have that degree of ubiquity so that we feel we're top of mind, we're creating urgency and hopefully driving ticket sales.

Kevin Goetz (06:07):

What are your measurements for success?

Gerry Rich (06:09):

Measurements for success would be looking at tracking and seeing that those heat measures are really dialing up as we're going into that home stretch.

Kevin Goetz (06:17):

You're not talking about our traditional tracking, are you?

Gerry Rich (06:19):

Well, I'm talking about -

Kevin Goetz (06:20):

Other trackers too.

Gerry Rich (06:21):

Other trackers too. Uh, what you're trying to do at that point is not necessarily convert, you're trying to make sure that you've got your CTA, that you're actually getting action.

Kevin Goetz (06:28):

And just to clarify, CTA, call to action.

Gerry Rich (06:31):

That you're getting that ubiquity at that time closer to opening, because I don't think, unless you're a big blockbuster tentpole movie, if you're Dune or what have you, you've got a longer window where you're gonna be out in the marketplace in a big way. But for most movies, if you're fortunate enough to have ubiquity, you're fortunate enough to have three days, five days max, and that's your time to really convert interest into sales.

Kevin Goetz (06:53):

Are marketing costs sustainable really in this day and age? It seems like at least we were heading to a far more economical model with the advent of digital.

Gerry Rich (07:04):

Sure.

Kevin Goetz (07:04):

Is that true or not?

Gerry Rich (07:06):

Not necessarily because I think the share of voice is still expensive no matter what the medium is. What you're gonna see is you'll continually see the shift of the media spend to digital. That has been an evolution that started a long time ago and continues, the percent of the media that goes to digital. But then part of that is how much of the money is going towards content creators who are the new journalists, if you will, speaking to much broader audiences than local TV personalities.

Kevin Goetz (07:31):

Absolutely.

Gerry Rich (07:33):

So I think it's a combination, but again, you have to have a roadmap and that roadmap has to start with planting a flag and reaching the broadest possible audience that you have in mind to get them on board and then drive up that urgency. And I think digital is key. I think frequency is key, but I think those high impact activations are necessary to make the movie jump off the page and feel like an event.

Kevin Goetz (07:58):

You wrote a book. I read every single page of this book.

Gerry Rich (08:04):

Thank you.

Kevin Goetz (08:04):

I didn't skim it. I always look at when Oprah or any journalist - Yeah. Says, "Oh, welcome to my show," or you're on Fallon or Kimmel and they go, "Oh, this book." There's no way they read that book. No. And I read every page.

Gerry Rich (08:18):

I really appreciate it.

Kevin Goetz (08:20):

I loved it. I loved it for a lot of reasons, but I wanna ask you the most fundamental question of why'd you write it? Yeah. Because in our end of the business, tell me what motivated you - Yeah. To put it on the page.

*Gerry Rich (08:33):

A couple factors, and it was not something that I was thinking about for a long time, so I'm not gonna say this for years I wanted to capture all these stories and put it on paper. But the time had passed after the pandemic, struggling to get back into our business to find its groove and get people back into theaters. At the same time, like you have spent over three decades in the business and have seen such a major transformation. Some have been really good and some not so good. So it was an intersection of me being at a new company that had purchased MGM, and it was a very different kind of culture. It was the tech culture, Amazon acquired MGM, at a time that the business had transformed so dramatically. And that seemed like a great time for me to go back and retrace the steps that I took in the business.

(09:22):

And after marketing stories for over three decades -

Kevin Goetz (09:25):

How many movies have you worked on?

Gerry Rich (09:27):

I'm sure I'm well over a thousand, and if I go back, I just never did, I never did the math. What I wanted to do was, rather than it being historical facts, I wanted to tap into those kind of indelible moments that really stand out.

Kevin Goetz (09:40):

In fairness, listeners, to work on even hundreds of movies, I remember Mike Medavoy was a guest and he touched on over 300 movies. Yeah. But when I say I work on a movie, I work on a movie in a very finite time. Sure. So it's not the same comparison at all. Gerry's intimately involved in the success and failure of so many of our movies over the last more than three decades. You come from St. Louis, one of three boys. Your mom died, my mother as well. Yeah. Far too young. And you talked very candidly about the relationship with your dad and your growing up, and of course you're coming out - uh-huh. Which was really significant for you. Mm-hmm. And it's funny, because I think back on so many of these, because I had a - Sure. Similar journey, as you know, I think I came out a little earlier than you did, but still in all, it was a great reminder of what we all had to go through.

(10:33):

And I think a lot of people will relate to that journey, Gerry. You also write about the people who shaped your life, both personally and professionally. Your friendship with actor Guy Pearce, for example, was especially important.

Gerry Rich (10:47):

Really important.

Kevin Goetz (10:47):

As one of the people, as was Gordon Weaver, a legend in movie marketing was another important influence in your life, right?

Gerry Rich (10:54):

They were, and in different ways and for different reasons.

Kevin Goetz (10:58):

How did you and Guy get to know each other?

*Gerry Rich (10:59):

I was working with Gordon Weaver, and this is after the Gordon Weaver company really had disbanded, but he did maintain a couple companies, a couple clients, one of which was called Boulevard Films out of Australia, who at the time, there was a lot of money available for production through these tax incentive deals. And this company was really prolific in taking advantage of this funding arrangement. And Guy Pearce, who was a big TV star at the time, was someone they took from television and wanted to make him a real movie star because they though he had that quality. So I was working with that company and helping them figure out the marketing of their movies. And we were shooting a movie in Fiji, and I was there for two weeks kind of getting onboarded about the movie and the company. And Guy was the lead of that movie.

(11:43):

It was a movie about Errol Flynn. And we all then went to Australia and I was there for three months. And he just became one of my closest friends and still is today.

Kevin Goetz (11:51):

Incredible.

Gerry Rich (11:52):

It's a matter of finding people, for me anyway, that I felt safe to expose myself and to talk to. And I thought that was the most important thing. If you're gonna choose the people that you're gonna come out to, choose people that you know are gonna make you feel good about it.

Kevin Goetz (12:04):

And of course when you came out, it was like, yeah, big deal.

Gerry Rich (12:08):

Yeah.

Kevin Goetz (12:08):

But it's so big for us at the time. But what took you so long?

Gerry Rich (12:11):

What took me so long? I think it's where I came from. I think coming from the Midwest, I think it was my surroundings and also not having necessarily media influences that resonated with me or that I could identify with.

Kevin Goetz (12:23):

Are your brothers straight?

Gerry Rich (12:24):

My brothers were straight growing up and one came out after me, so.

Kevin Goetz (12:28):

Oh, how great.

Gerry Rich (12:29):

Two out of the three boys are gay. But I think it was my upbringing. I grew up in a pretty conservative part of the world and I really didn't have gay people in my life. So therefore, my only perception of the gay community were some of the larger than life, really animated characters that you'd see who were more cartoonish -

Kevin Goetz (12:46):

Tropey.

Gerry Rich (12:47):

Tropey.

Kevin Goetz (12:48):

Stereotypical.

Gerry Rich (12:49):

And that led to, "Well, that's not me, so I must not be."

Kevin Goetz (12:52):

Exactly. 'Cause I never went to like a gay pride parade early on in my coming out. Neil and I always talk about the fact that we're together almost, it'll be 33 years. Yeah. That, you know.

Gerry Rich (13:02):

That's 100 years in our world.

Kevin Goetz (13:03):

Well, not anymore though. Okay. Right. But we used to say that. 

Gerry Rich (13:06):

No, but that's pretty good.

Kevin Goetz (13:07):

It is good. But what I love about the fact that the way in which we educated people, if you will, was just being. Yeah. Being who we were, living a normal, quote unquote, normal life. And not by design, but for whatever reason, we have an enormous number of straight friends. Yeah. Probably more than gay friends. It just happened to work out that way. 

Gerry Rich (13:27):

I think that's important too. I think it gives balance. I think when you have your friends that are not part of the community but aligned with community, it makes you love them even more.

Kevin Goetz (13:36):

I remember reading when Nina Jacobson was running Disney. I remember there was an article and she talked about coming out and she said that before she came out, there was a lack of authenticity even in her work. Yeah. And after she came out, she was able to be more present, more authentic. Sure. And did you feel that as well?

Gerry Rich (13:55):

100%.

Kevin Goetz (13:56):

Did you find your work improved?

*Gerry Rich (13:57):

100%. And I think if you ask why include those kinds of stories in a book that is really inside Hollywood, it's because they're all intertwined. All of the background, where I came from, how I evolved as a person, all factored into this journey and the work and whatever accomplishments I've had is all part and parcel. They're all intertwined together.

Kevin Goetz (14:18):

The other very unique quality that I got from the book, especially in the first part of the book, was that I always dreamed of being a movie star. Yeah. Or a Broadway star.

Gerry Rich (14:28):

You are.

Kevin Goetz (14:30):

Well, not quite. <laugh> But you dreamed of being a marketing guy.

Gerry Rich (14:35):

Yeah.

Kevin Goetz (14:36):

You wanted to be in marketing since you were a kid. Yeah. And there were various points where you had to pinch yourself going on the Paramount lot, you talked about and other things where you said, "I'm doing this."

Gerry Rich (14:49):

Yeah.

Kevin Goetz (14:50):

"I'm sitting with Sherry Lansing." Mm-hmm. "I'm sitting with Tom Freston. I'm sitting with Steven Spielberg." And you were like, "Holy shit." Yeah. "I made it." What was that like?

Gerry Rich (15:02):

I think because I started contemplating this so young and started putting a plan together, again, starting at around age 10, I had to be pragmatic in a way that a 10-year-old isn't pragmatic. And I started to think, "What's my path?"

Kevin Goetz (15:18):

How'd you even know what a marketer did?

Gerry Rich (15:20):

I knew through my godfather, Irv Davis -

Kevin Goetz (15:23):

Gotta call out the mentors.

Gerry Rich (15:25):

Absolutely. He had swagger, he had success, he had a cool office, he was in creative, in a creative side of the business. He was my father's best friend, lived a very different life than my dad, but they were still best friends. They were in the army together. They were at AEPi fraternity at WashU together. They were just best friends from beginning to end.

Kevin Goetz (15:46):

It's funny you say your father really had no idea, nor did he give you a lot of reason to think he cared about what you did until he did. Yeah. And then he was sort of your staunchest supporter. And I love that you flew him in for a premiere.

Gerry Rich (16:01):

I flew him in a couple times. One was for a premiere of James Bond and he got to meet James Bond and he got to meet Pierce - Right. And Frank Mancuso, who was the godfather. And they were all so lovely to my dad. But I did send him in another time when I was at Paramount and he got this wonderful tour of the lot in a golf cart. But this is the funny story, and I didn't put in the book because I thought it sounded too mean. It just shows the psychology of why one might be in therapy. The people from the studio took him around and they drove him to the marathon building where the marketing department was and they said, "Here's your son's building. You can go into the left and his office suite is there." And he came in and he said, "Didn't you have a bigger desk at MGM?"

Kevin Goetz (16:42):

I have to reach out and touch you because we need a moment of bonding. My God. Yeah, the years of therapy. It's true because they think they're being helpful, they're awkward, they don't know what to say.

Gerry Rich (16:54):

I know.

Kevin Goetz (16:55):

And it's like, oh, and it stings so badly not to say, "I am so proud of you." My dad did that more than my mom, but when they got on board with me - Yeah. When they saw what I was building, when they saw my success, man, there was no one in my corner. But they, I think they're afraid for us - They're afraid. In some weird way.

Gerry Rich (17:14):

I, I totally agree. It's not coming from a bad place. I think with my dad at that point, it was the awkwardness of going through this entire lot where people were catering to him and being so nice to him and putting him on his VIP.

Kevin Goetz (17:25):

And my son is this big.

Gerry Rich (17:27):

Yeah.

Kevin Goetz (17:27):

My son is this important that they're giving me this kind of attention?

Gerry Rich (17:31):

And my mom, on the other hand, was very different because we had friction because during my first two years of college at the University of Missouri in Columbia, I knew that I'm gonna save up money so that my latter two years could be on the West Coast. 

Kevin Goetz (17:44):

I'm out of here. That was gonna be - I'm outta here.

Gerry Rich (17:45):

Yeah. But I had to figure it out. I had to find out how would I pay for it and all that. But for the first semester of my first freshman year, I'm on the phone with my mom and I said, "You know, I've been going to the library really looking up catalogs for West Coast schools, and I think it could be between this and this." And she said, "That's two years away. Can't you just be like a normal kid and live in the moment?" And where we grew up, people tend to stay in that zip code or adjacent zip code and not leave.

Kevin Goetz (18:12):

And how did you get out?

Gerry Rich (18:13):

I got out by following this plan, and this plan started when I was age 10, and it would ebb and flow. And I started reaching out to studio executives at my college years. And particularly when I got to San Diego State, it got me within two hours -

Kevin Goetz (18:26):

Of course.

Gerry Rich (18:26):

Of Mecca. And yet I would be in a decent school. 

Kevin Goetz (18:30):

What'd you major in?

Gerry Rich (18:31):

Business, marketing, a BS in business. But also, there was an intimidation factor of LA. What I knew of LA was from 2,200 miles away and could be really intimidating. It's very spread out. I'd never been to LA. So San Diego was the conduit to making friends who were from LA and making frequent trips up to LA. And that is when I got on that crazy checklist of people that I needed to reach out to.

Kevin Goetz (18:54):

Who responded back?

Gerry Rich (18:56):

Irv Ivers responded back. Larry Olshen, who was in advertising, responded back. Ray McCafferty, who was the head of distribution at 20th Century Fox, didn't respond to me until he found out that he worked for my grandfather in St. Louis 100 years ago.

Kevin Goetz (19:11):

How did he find that out?

Gerry Rich (19:12):

I told him. I found out from someone else.

Kevin Goetz (19:14):

And then you just wrote him and he -

Gerry Rich (19:15):

Uh, no, I called and he had the old school secretary, you know, Mr. McCafferty's office and gatekeeper, nobody's getting through. And she goes, "He's busy. Can I take a message?" And I said, "I think he knows my grandfather, Nat Steinberg." And then she came back and said, "Hold on." And he got on and his heart sank. He couldn't believe it. A name from the past. Wow. I never knew because he passed away when I was one. But there was a connection.

Kevin Goetz (19:37):

And that's what you're so good at doing with campaigns. Yeah.

(19:40):

When we come back, we are going to pick up the conversation, which I don't even know how this is gonna be done in the time that we have, but we're here with the accomplished and talented Gerry Rich, and we'll be back in a moment. Listeners, the Motion Picture and Television Fund is a nonprofit charitable organization that supports working and retired members of the entertainment community. This wonderfully run organization offers assistance for living and aging with dignity and purpose in the areas of health and social services, including temporary financial assistance, case management, and residential living, and has been a crucial lifeline to thousands during and beyond critical times that our industry continues to experience. To learn more, visit mptf.com. Please join me in helping others in our industry during times of need. There are so many ways to offer support and get involved. Thank you. We're back with Gerry Rich.

(20:52):

St. Louis is a beautiful city, but it also doesn't represent Hollywood in almost any way. You feel like other people around the country can follow in your footsteps if they just sort of put their mind to it, have a plan, have a dream, have tenacity. Can you talk about that?

*Gerry Rich (21:14):

Sure. And that's a big part of why I wanted to weave in this backstory with the actual journey with the look inside Hollywood and evolution of film and film marketing. I wanted it all to exist together because I think the book could resonate and reach different audiences in different ways. And I do hope that one thing that does resonate with an audience that may not be interested in Hollywood is that those young Gen Z millennials who are really trying to figure out what it is they wanna do. And part of that is really figuring out what is it that is gonna make you excited to go to work and to have a career. It can't just be because it pays a lot of money. There's gotta be something that strikes passion within you. And then take away all the limitations. I'm from Ohio or I'm from Peoria or I'm from Kansas. Use it to your advantage. And that is, we grew up in places, at least for me, I didn't grow up where I thought I wanted to grow up. I grew up where I had to grow up.

Kevin Goetz (22:17):

Right, of course.

Gerry Rich (22:18):

And at the time I though, I just wanna get out.

Kevin Goetz (22:21):

But it also informed the man you have become.

Gerry Rich (22:23):

Exactly. And this happens different times in my career and it happened different times in my life. The bottom line is I was exactly where I needed to be and where I should be to become - 

Kevin Goetz (22:32):

I love when you get to that place. Yeah. When one gets to that place.

Gerry Rich (22:35):

I didn't get to the place until after the book - Of course. Was written. Through this process, I realized I was so fortunate to grow up where I did, because number one, I knew that wasn't the place where I wanted to live, but I grew up with the same friends from kindergarten all the way through high school. Still friends with them.

Kevin Goetz (22:51):

I'm the same way, man.

Gerry Rich (22:52):

And it gave me foundational support and -

Kevin Goetz (22:54):

Keeps you real too, doesn't it?

Gerry Rich (22:56):

It does. And I think it separates you from a lot of other people.

Kevin Goetz (22:59):

And yet your career has taken you to some pretty outrageous places. You even write about being in Elton John's house in a room devoted entirely to what his glasses or his sunglass collection. That's a long way from St. Louis.

*Gerry Rich (23:13):

Yeah. It gives you lots of pinch yourself moments going, "I grew up in this modest neighborhood and modest home, and years later, I found myself in spaces and places with people I never could have imagined." And other people can do that too. Hollywood is just a metaphor. Hollywood is a metaphor for some crazy dream that you might have that feels beyond your reach.

Kevin Goetz (23:32):

I wanna talk about art for a moment and the purity of artistic expression, but also of the essence of who I got about you from this book, which is a guy who truly loves movies.

Gerry Rich (23:48):

Yeah.

Kevin Goetz (23:49):

You jumped a bunch.

Gerry Rich (23:50):

Yeah.

Kevin Goetz (23:51):

My guess, and I'd like you to unpack this for me, is that you were not the best at internal politics. Mm. And that what you were really great at was the work.

Gerry Rich (24:02):

Yeah.

Kevin Goetz (24:03):

The movie. And probably if you played it a little differently, potentially, because I'm about to get into the fact that there was a time at Paramount I can think of where you couldn't be more successful. And we don't need to get too specific because I want people to read the book and get excited about it, but tell me about what I'm observing - Yeah. As sort of the essence of what I'm getting at.

Gerry Rich (24:25):

It's very true. Now, I think my longest stay was at MGM in the 90s, which was closer to 10 years.

Kevin Goetz (24:32):

Oh, well, that's not chopped liver.

Gerry Rich (24:34):

But bou're absolutely right what you're saying. 

Kevin Goetz (24:35):

But you loved Frank Mancuso. I loved - I mean, so did I.

*Gerry Rich (24:38):

Yeah. And he really took a chance on me. I was a kid. I'd never run a big studio marketing department. My teeth were cut more on the independent movies that we had great success with in those early '90s, including The Crying Game and Reservoir Dogs and movies like that. But he took a chance on me and brought me in. And in a way, I'm kind of drawn to chaos. Going to a studio to rebuild a studio is much more exciting to me than walking into a place that's fully running. All you could do is screw it up, keep the trains going. But going into MGM was a once in a lifetime opportunity to help rebuild this fame studio that Parretti had put into the ground, but the company was in bankruptcy. Crédit Lyonnais owned the company.

Kevin Goetz (25:20):

People don't know how awful that was at that time.

Gerry Rich (25:23):

It was awful. It was -

Kevin Goetz (25:24):

There was no future.

Gerry Rich (25:25):

It was beleaguered. The staff that was there - 

Kevin Goetz (25:27):

And yet you had a brand that was known worldwide maybe - I know. More than any other brand in Hollywood.

Gerry Rich (25:31):

So I walked in there with Frank Mancuso, Bob Pisano, Larry Gleason, John Calley, and Mike Marcus. And together, this was the new group, and we had to rebuild it from scratch. And there was nothing like that because what you're able to do then is build a team and - 

Kevin Goetz (25:49):

You can only, you can only succeed.

Gerry Rich (25:50):

You can only succeed, right. But the stakes are really high too, because we had a Bond franchise that had underperformed with Timothy Dalton. And so the last Bond movie that had opened years ago - 

Kevin Goetz (26:01):

No, it had. You had not been there.

Gerry Rich (26:02):

No, no, no. I was not there. But we were at a precarious time with the franchise in that the last two Bonds were not successful. And so this was our make or break moment with the next James Bond to reboot the franchise and make it successful so that the crown jewel of the company, you know, when you're valuing a company, a studio, the first place you look is in your library of franchises, and those are your crown jewels. And this one was in trouble.

Kevin Goetz (26:26):

Because I realized that, if I'm not mistaken, MGM had the largest library.

Gerry Rich (26:31):

They did.

Kevin Goetz (26:31):

That doesn't mean it was the 80/20 or 98/2 rule of what was considered good or viable properties.

Gerry Rich (26:38):

Yeah, that's right. Your cash cows are those franchises that help pull the rest of the library into -

Kevin Goetz (26:44):

But the franchise was on the downside.

*Gerry Rich (26:45):

On the downside, very much so. So our first mission was to revitalize that and recast it and reinvigorate the franchise so that the next James Bond movie, it had to be successful or else we were screwed because then the value of the company would have gone down exponentially. And they made a great movie. Martin Campbell was the director of GoldenEye. Pierce Brosnan was the perfect James Bond. And he came in and I think we had one of the best teaser trailers ever for a James Bond movie. And it really played into the fact that this guy was new, were you expecting someone else? And it just ignited audiences, not just fans, but non-fans.

Kevin Goetz (27:25):

It's what they did so brilliantly recently with Resident Evil.

Gerry Rich (27:27):

For sure. I mean - Absolutely. Re-imagining and -

Kevin Goetz (27:31):

Oh my Lord.

Gerry Rich (27:32):

And I think we were able to really move the needle with a new video game, a Nintendo first person shooter game for GoldenEye and music and really making an effort with the campaign to bring a new audience in and let them know that they don't have to do homework and watch the 20 that preceded it to be up to speed with this one. And I think JudiDench was a major find and brilliant, stroke of brilliance of the Broccolis.

Kevin Goetz (27:57):

So you mentioned so many movies in the book, and I kind of know already which ones seem to have a little bit more love from you. Sure. Tell me what you most remember about a particular movie. And I'm gonna start with what I believe is the most seminal movie of your career with The Crying Game. Mm-hmm. 'Cause it got you on the map. Mm-hmm. Tell me about The Crying Game. What comes to mind?

Gerry Rich (28:18):

What comes to mind is the whole dialogue about how are we gonna sell this movie? Our lead character, not our lead actor, is trans. And if we come out with a thriller leading with a trans character -

Kevin Goetz (28:29):

You're dead.

Gerry Rich (28:30):

We're dead. We're DOA.

Kevin Goetz (28:31):

Especially 30 years ago. 30 some odd years ago.

Gerry Rich (28:33):

30 some odd years ago. Yeah. And yet the movie was provocative. It also had very thick accents.

Kevin Goetz (28:39):

How'd you keep the secret?

*Gerry Rich (28:40):

It was something that you wouldn't be able to do today. And what we did was, we all looked at it. Cynthia Swartz, a big strategist on this movie. And we looked at it and we go, "We're dead. We're limited. We're gonna be in just the calendar dates and key art houses if we sell this like a normal movie." But it had a great thriller element to it. It had some sexiness to it, and it was provocative. And we knew critics were gonna love the movie. So we saw this ad that the UK team had put together, and it said something about the secret, but it was a very wordy kind of headline. And what we did was we brainstormed and, and just sat there until we figured it out and came back with the notion that let's talk about how this movie is topical and then invite people not to give away the secret. And so the line was, "This is the movie everybody's talking about, but nobody's giving away its secret." So that, as far as a provocative copy line, was our north star. Then pepper it with these amazing reviews that talk about the discovery and the celebration of Neil Jordan.

Kevin Goetz (29:41):

So it was really, it was about curiosity.

Gerry Rich (29:42):

That was the lead-in, but that wouldn't work unless we literally set up a phone bank. And between Cynthia, myself, Harvey, we came up with a war room and literally called every critic, regional national critic saying, "Please, please, please don't give away the secret of the crying game. Don't Give away the twist. We even went to your old friend, Joe Farrell, and I said -

Kevin Goetz (30:04):

My old boss.

Gerry Rich (30:05):

Your old boss. And I asked him to do a tack on question for tracking and to say, "How many of you aware of The Crying Game? Are you aware of the secret? And do you want to know the secret?" And nobody wanted to know the secret. So then I took that information and made another call to journalists saying, "77% of your audience doesn't want to know the secret, so don't be that guy to give it away." And they all played ball. Wow. And what happened was, it catapulted into pop culture, into the zeitgeist. It then made its way into late night show monologues and things like that. The curiosity factor, and men were the first ones in line. Straight men. And it's a movie that I think - What

Kevin Goetz (30:43):

Did it end up doing?

Gerry Rich (30:44):

$60 million. And, and in today's -

Kevin Goetz (30:46):

How much did it cost?

Gerry Rich (30:48):

Three. Two. But the thing that's different about that and what was so seminal about that movie and that moment and that time was that it redefined and it reimagined how independent movies could be marketed and distributed. That it doesn't have to sit at the Angelika and the Paris and the Landmark, that it can go to Mall of Americas and go beyond if you handle it the right way. And that was -

Kevin Goetz (31:10):

And the wits of the Weinsteins were so brilliant.

Gerry Rich (31:12):

They were.

Kevin Goetz (31:13):

Because they made Miramax a brand.

Gerry Rich (31:16):

They did.

Kevin Goetz (31:16):

A true brand. And the brand -

Gerry Rich (31:18):

Other than Disney, there was no other brand that meant anything.

Kevin Goetz (31:20):

And I think now it's A24 that kind of - 100%. That mantle, right? Right. I can't help myself as a moderator. Yeah. I have to keep digging. The Birdcage.

*Gerry Rich (31:30):

Truly one of my most fond memories in my entire career. It was a movie that I couldn't see often enough. It was a movie where I got to meet one of my heroes in the name of Mike Nichols. And I forged a wonderful bond with him. I was in awe over him. But I admired him so much, not only his brilliance, but his intelligence and the films that he worked on and his place in Hollywood royalty, if you will, and so well deserved. And he was incredibly generous and kind to me because I think he responded to the enthusiasm I had for his movie. In the book, I talk about Mike calling me into his office and asking if I want to go into partnership with him and John Calley. And I thought, I don't know what my role will be in this, but all I know is that I would really do anything to work with you and create films.

(32:19):

And then Universal made a big offer to Mike and Mike went off and did his thing. But one of my favorite moments with Mike became kind of emblematic of the relationship we had. And sent him a spot. And in those days, remember they did the big three quarter inch things that were so clunky. And he called me Gerald. He would say Gerald.

Kevin Goetz (32:37):

That's not your name.

Gerry Rich (32:38):

He didn't care.

Kevin Goetz (32:39):

No, correct. Am I right? 

Gerry Rich (32:40):

You're absolutely correct. That is not my legal name, but he wasn't interested in knowing that it wasn't my -

Kevin Goetz (32:44):

You should have said Michael.

Gerry Rich (32:46):

He, that's fine. He would love that. <laugh> Yeah. So he said, Gerald, the spot's too gay. And that was me. I was newly out. I was comfortable with my sexuality.

Kevin Goetz (32:55):

How dare you.

Gerry Rich (32:56):

I was, I really was pissed. Yeah. And I said, "Which parts are too gay?" And he said, "Well, kind of all." I said, "You mean the two lovers who are our leads, they're too gay? Is Nathan too gay? Is Agador Spartacus too gay? Which part's too gay and I'll gay it down?" And he goes, "Well, I just think the whole thing's too gay." And I said, "Okay, I'm gonna take the gay down and I'll get it back to you." And then I hung up and I was pissed.

Kevin Goetz (33:20):

Of course. 

Gerry Rich (33:20):

Because this is a man, he has no animosity with gay people. He loves the gay community. Look at his filmography. And so then he called me right back and my assistant said, "It's Mike Nichols again." And he said, "Gerald, I think we just had our first fight." And I said, I just cracked up laughing. And I said, well-

Kevin Goetz (33:38):

But he was right.

Gerry Rich (33:39):

He was right. I was pissed.

Kevin Goetz (33:41):

No, no. He was right in that it was too inside.

Gerry Rich (33:43):

I know.

Kevin Goetz (33:44):

Right? Yes. And it's gonna ghettoize our movie a little too much. Is that a fair comment?

Gerry Rich (33:48):

It's totally fair. And we had to walk a line of big mainstream lines.

Kevin Goetz (33:52):

But you can't say that. Yeah. That's the thing. Okay. Can I go onto another movie? Go for it. Mean Girls.

Gerry Rich (33:57):

Mean Girls, I have so much love for Mean Girls. It was the first movie when I came into Paramount that was already in the works. We were a few months away from the release date and the campaign was well on its way and they had some really good things in the campaign. I though it needed to be positioned a little bit differently. And my story that I wanted to tell was to make the story a little more relatable. In the materials, there were a bunch of girls, weren't sure who were the mean girls and who was the nice girl. 

Kevin Goetz (34:24):

You know who had the same problem? Was Pitch Perfect. Yeah. Had the same kind of... I remember talking to Josh Goldstein about this. Yeah. And it was like, how do you cut through and make this separate? And at first it was the boys against the gals. Sure. And the gals against the boys. Yeah. And it didn't work. Yeah. It did. It was too generic. And when they created more about the female empowerment and they began to make those girls more individuals -

Gerry Rich (34:47):

Absolutely.

Kevin Goetz (34:48):

Is that what you did?

*Gerry Rich (34:49):

What I did was, and I remember talking about this with Lorne Michaels, who was the producer, and Sherry Lansing, what I wanted to do is just take a step back and, and not make this, the, the sale so frenetic. Just what is a point of relatability? The point of relatability was there you are, you're in high school and the scariest though in the world is day one of coming to a new school and facing the mean girls.

Kevin Goetz (35:13):

I was just gonna ask you, what is your secret sauce, your superpower? When you look at a movie, do you sort of get this moment of aha where you go, "That's it. I got it." And if you don't have that, it's not gonna typically work.

Gerry Rich (35:30):

Yeah. I think it's two pieces. I think it's that, but then when you start looking at pieces, if you start looking at campaign elements, you could start seeing what, what is and what isn't working. And what wasn't working was just all these women put in, not knowing who is who, and really stepping back and what is that bigger idea, the scariness for a young girl going to a high school for the very first time.

Kevin Goetz (35:52):

I'm, I think it's genius. What I'm trying to say is if you don't get that - Yeah. Crystallization -

Gerry Rich (35:57):

That's right.

Kevin Goetz (35:58):

You're probably not gonna have a successful campaign.

Gerry Rich (36:00):

You're not.

Kevin Goetz (36:01):

And your job essentially is you have to figure that out.

Gerry Rich (36:05):

You've gotta cast the widest net and bring in the broadest possible audience.

Kevin Goetz (36:07):

But you've got to find a way, a hook, a something, correct? Have to. What was an example of a movie that had that, that just didn't land because you couldn't get your arms around it, your team couldn't get their arms around it?

Gerry Rich (36:19):

Right.

Kevin Goetz (36:20):

You have one that comes to mind?

Gerry Rich (36:22):

I think there are a number of feathered fish. And there's cases too where you have a movie that doesn't deliver the playability and you don't have a sense of the marketability and then you're really screwed. But if you have a movie that really is working, then the pressure's really on.

Kevin Goetz (36:36):

Oh, I always say I love after a test screening and there's a little powwow afterwards. Yeah. And I'm delivering the numbers. Yeah. And something you know has a recruit ratio, meaning it was so difficult to get people to see the movie, that's a recruit ratio that's really high because people don't wanna necessarily see it. And you know that it scored way m - better than it should have or in some way hoped it would - Yeah. Because now you gotta figure out how to get people in. That's right. And I see the marketing people slowly walk out of the circle.

Gerry Rich (37:07):

I have walked out of so many screenings with you on some of those movies where the numbers were extraordinary. And oftentimes with sports movies or movies that have that kind of underdog -

Kevin Goetz (37:17):

You get a halo effect.

Gerry Rich (37:18):

You get a halo effect. But you and I have walked out of theaters, and I remember one particular time, no title given, but I remember walking out great scores and you said to me, "You're not going theatrically with that, are you?"

Kevin Goetz (37:31):

I know what you're talking about.

Gerry Rich (37:32):

You're not getting them into theaters.

Kevin Goetz (37:33):

But they were all spinning that they were.

Gerry Rich (37:36):

Yeah.

Kevin Goetz (37:36):

If you remember.

Gerry Rich (37:36):

Oh, of course.

Kevin Goetz (37:37):

Everyone said -

Gerry Rich (37:38):

But they always are because they're looking at numbers and saying, "I haven't a movie score this high." And sometimes there are. Maybe, maybe -

Kevin Goetz (37:43):

But that doesn't mean that I'm feeling like you still want more people to see the movie. Yeah. And that's not necessarily theatrical.

*Gerry Rich (37:49):

That's right. And sometimes the best. And I think the, the Amazons and the Netflix have provided great opportunities to showcase great films that are viewed by so many more people that compliment the films that are in theaters. I think there's room for all of it.

Kevin Goetz (38:03):

One of my favorite movies, Chicago.

Gerry Rich (38:05):

Yeah. 

Kevin Goetz (38:05):

What do you remember?

*Gerry Rich (38:06):

I remember just everything going right on that movie from execution to cast, even if there was some skepticism about Renée, whether she could pull it off.

Kevin Goetz (38:16):

And she got an Oscar nomination.

Gerry Rich (38:17):

She did. It was one of those movies that it was the right movie, the right execution, the right campaign. Our main goal was to try to bring in an audience that didn't typically go to musicals because the musicals weren't known for huge blockbuster business.

Kevin Goetz (38:33):

Now you're gonna play my rules, a speed round with one word answers. Could be two words.

Gerry Rich (38:39):

Okay.

Kevin Goetz (38:39):

Okay. Ready? Here we go.

Gerry Rich (38:41):

Do you think I can do it with two words?

Kevin Goetz (38:43):

Barbara Broccoli.

Gerry Rich (38:44):

The best. Genius, kindhearted, and brilliant.

Kevin Goetz (38:49):

What about Michael Wilson?

Gerry Rich (38:51):

Michael's wonderful, very smart, kind of the soft-spoken one, but absolutely brilliant. They're, they work so well together. Right brain, left brain.

Kevin Goetz (39:01):

Frank Mancuso.

Gerry Rich (39:02):

The ultimate statesman. Elegant, classy, bright CEO.

Kevin Goetz (39:08):

Lorne Michaels.

Gerry Rich (39:10):

One of my favorite people on the planet. Funny, cares a lot, has a good time, protector and genius.

Kevin Goetz (39:17):

Sherry Lansing.

Gerry Rich (39:18):

Sherry Lansing is just the very best there is and -

Kevin Goetz (39:21):

The very best there is.

Gerry Rich (39:22):

She's singularly the best studio boss of all time.

Kevin Goetz (39:27):

Brad Grey.

Gerry Rich (39:28):

Brad Grey was the darker side of Hollywood for me. A man who was into it for ego and the accoutrements. Not a good guy, not a guy who would have your back. Very kind of creates fiefdoms and not a love for making films or marketing films. A love for the accolades and the attention.

Kevin Goetz (39:48):

Did he have something in for you personally?

Gerry Rich (39:50):

Not at all. Someone explained it best in an article that was written about Brad before he went to Paramount. They said Brad Grey is on a rocket ship to the moon. Unfortunately, there's only room for one person. Brad was that, and he was very much an elitist. So if it was a filmmaker like Scorsese, obviously one of the best, he would gush over him. If it was a big star, he would gush over him. We were the worker bees.

Kevin Goetz (40:14):

Got it. Larry Gleason.

Gerry Rich (40:16):

He's like my LA dad. He's a good guy. Distributors love him. He came out of the distribution world, understands theaters.

Kevin Goetz (40:23):

You guys were joined at the hip for so long.

Gerry Rich (40:24):

We were joined at the hip. And with Larry, I wanted to make sure that we would dispel that preconceived notion that marketing and distribution people can't get along because we need each other.

Kevin Goetz (40:34):

Amen, brother.

Gerry Rich (40:35):

We need each other and we need to make smart decisions on release dates. We need to make smart decisions on campaigns.

Kevin Goetz (40:41):

It wasn't until, I believe MGM, you and Larry were both brought in to the Green Light Committee.

Gerry Rich (40:46):

We were, yeah.

Kevin Goetz (40:47):

Which was highly unusual then, correct?

Gerry Rich (40:50):

It was. It was wonderful.

Kevin Goetz (40:51):

I love that you did that. A couple more because I love this. Erik Lomis.

Gerry Rich (40:56):

Erik Lomis, he passed away sadly recently.

Kevin Goetz (40:59):

When I read that, I had to stop -

Gerry Rich (41:03):

Me too. And

Kevin Goetz (41:03):

Then pick it up.

Gerry Rich (41:04):

I teared up when I was doing the audiobook.

Kevin Goetz (41:05):

Yeah. Remember, I was with him, it was 10 o'clock the night before. You and I were at a screening in Aliso Viejo - uh-huh. At Boys in the Boat, the George Clooney-directed movie. And I remember leaving at 10:03. Mm-hmm. And you and Erik and I were in the parking lot and we all said, "See you tomorrow. See you tomorrow. Bye. Love you, Erik. Love you, Kev." And he was dead by 6:30 in the morning.

Gerry Rich (41:32):

Yeah. It's the saddest moment in the book.

Kevin Goetz (41:35):

And you were driving over there at

Gerry Rich (41:36):

The time. And I drove with him and I'd left my car at his house. But the worst part about it is the next morning we were on a Zoom and Erik was very old school, three-piece suit. If you're a minute early, you're late. And gruff as can be, but the softest heart.

Kevin Goetz (41:50):

Softest heart. 

Gerry Rich (41:51):

Heart in the world. And the more he knew you, the more you knew you had an unconditionally supportive, loving friend that will take bullets for you. And without exception.

Kevin Goetz (42:00):

And when you say a minute early, was a minute late?

Gerry Rich (42:03):

Yeah. We were on a Zoom call.

Kevin Goetz (42:04):

And he did not show up.

Gerry Rich (42:05):

He didn't show up, and it was not like him. Kevin Wilson, who was his number two, who's a wonderful guy who filled Erik's big shoes. He tried calling Erik. I tried calling Erik. We tried calling Patricia, his lovely wife, and Patricia then worked at... She still works at Lionsgate, but she turned around to go back home. And then Kevin and I left to go to the house as well.

Kevin Goetz (42:26):

Give us your quote.

Gerry Rich (42:27):

What quote?

Kevin Goetz (42:28):

Of what constitutes someone you should work with.

*Gerry Rich (42:32):

I had a mentor in life who tried to convince me not to do another term at Paramount and said two lessons that he learned as an entrepreneur. One was never work for assholes. Now, earlier in your career, you have to. That's part of the stepping stone. But he also said, "Don't work with people who would never visit you in the hospital." And this man was named Hal Gaba, one of the greatest entrepreneurs in our business. I didn't really know how connected he was because he always made so much time for me. And when I went to his funeral, it was people like Howard Schultz memorializing him and Norman Lear, his partner, and this man was just filled with humanity, love, and humor.

Kevin Goetz (43:14):

What a great benchmark - Yeah. Of people to work with or not work with. Harvey Weinstein, you do refer to him at his name at one point in the book.

Gerry Rich (43:23):

Sure.

Kevin Goetz (43:24):

But you also refer to him more so as the man

Gerry Rich (43:27):

who shall not be named

Kevin Goetz (43:28):

A complicated relationship, a great one, and probably a tragic one at the same time.

*Gerry Rich (43:34):

Absolutely. Two things can exist. One is he is singularly one of the most impactful executive/filmmakers that changed the course of how independent films were made, distributed, and marketed. So that's one part of who Harvey is. The second part of him was somebody who was gruff and tough and bullying and created a really hostile work environment.

Kevin Goetz (44:01):

I also heard there was a third part, which was, let's say he heard that you needed a doctor - Yeah. Or something, that he'd be the first one to make a phone call.

Gerry Rich (44:11):

I'll tell that story in a second. Exactly. It's very true.

Kevin Goetz (44:14):

It wasn't in your book. I just know that from other folks.

Gerry Rich (44:16):

It wasn't. And I was really torn as I was writing about Harvey because I didn't want people to feel like I was glorifying a man who did such atrocities. And I didn't wanna undermine the brave people who have come forward to tell their stories and get justice.

Kevin Goetz (44:30):

But it's from your perspective.

Gerry Rich (44:31):

I’m trying to tell from my perspective. Yeah. But so the hostile work environment I talk about a lot in that you can learn a whole lot being in that soup and in that culture, but at a certain point you wanna get out because if you don't get out, you're gonna become that and you're gonna become immune to it. And you're gonna be yelling and screaming and being completely out of control with your colleagues. But the other part of him was he did have a mention kind of quality where he would step up and try to help you if you were in trouble. And I remember my dad had an accident in Arizona and needed brain surgery and Harvey... And I was just there as a consultant at the time.

Kevin Goetz (45:07):

You came back as a consultant.

Gerry Rich (45:08):

I came back for three tours of duty. Exactly.

*(45:11):

That should have been three books. But I came back and Harvey reached out to me. I didn't reach out to him and he heard I was there and he said, "Is there anything we can do? Do we need to find a specialist?" And that was genuine. So all these things can be true, and they were with him. It was a very complicated, complex... Bottom line is, all of these sides of Harvey exist, and yet he's now in prison and will serve the rest of his life in prison. And that's unfortunate for the victims, first of all, and that a man with so much talent who had such an impact in our business from Miramax, Disney bought Miramax. I was there the day they bought it. And then all of the other companies, studios wanted a piece of that business too. So that triggered the additional independent companies that followed.

(45:57):

I don't know that A24 would be here without Searchlight. And I know that Searchlight wouldn't be there without Miramax.

Kevin Goetz (46:03):

100%.

Gerry Rich (46:03):

So anyway, it's a complicated man and it's a tragic story.

Kevin Goetz (46:08):

In the afterward of your book - Yeah. You speak about the future a little bit. You speak about art and your fear of commoditization. You speak about product and the word content - Yeah. Being a bad word. And the uninspired amount of it. Mm-hmm. And I wanna just say that at first I was a little taken back because you make it... And literally made a couple of comments. There's no room for focus groups and no room for consensus, if you will, when deciding what to make. And I just wanted to say that I very much agree with the creation of art. There is no room for anyone but the artist and the divine presence of the universe. I do wanna ask you about and tend to not maybe see eye to eye in this, and I wanna get your opinion. The moment you memorialize it, the moment it's a treatment, a script - uh-huh.

(47:04):

Something beyond just the idea and the spark and all of that. My theory is, and I write about it in my book, How to Score in Hollywood, is do involve the audience, understand the audience, size the audience so that you don't make fatal mistakes of making something for too much money, et cetera, et cetera.

Gerry Rich (47:24):

Sure.

Kevin Goetz (47:25):

How do you feel about what I was -

*Gerry Rich (47:26):

I am in complete agreement. I think when I was talking about the data points that tend to go into these decisions, a lot of the data points are attributed to the generic modeling, which says, "How is this gonna do on our platform?" If you have a Dave Bautista and a, and another big action star in a comedy, it's going to lift. And if you start modeling based on the algorithm, you're gonna start green lighting a lot of movies that have a sameness to them.

Kevin Goetz (47:54):

Now, there's no reason to say, "Dave Bautista did really well in these movies. We'd like to do a movie with Dave Bautista." But don't make a movie manufactured, find a movie that he would be right for. Yeah. Or a white space is we need a comedy because comedies do well for us. That's a business decision, which I respect.

Gerry Rich (48:12):

100%.

Kevin Goetz (48:13):

But go to the best comedy writers, have them pitch you. That's what I think you're saying.

Gerry Rich (48:17):

That is what I'm saying. And we look at comedies now and say, "Well, now that's a genre that we see on streaming." Well, I don't think that's prescriptive. I think that might be an observation.

Kevin Goetz (48:25):

No, it's... Bullshit is what it is. 

Gerry Rich (48:27):

It is bullshit.

Kevin Goetz (48:27):

And I'm gonna tell you why it's bullshit. It's a self-fulfilling prophecy.

Gerry Rich (48:30):

That's right.

Kevin Goetz (48:30):

When there's another Crazy Rich Asians, I was sitting with the editor of that last night - Yeah. Suddenly comedies are back. You have romantic comedy genre dead, and then the Sydney Sweeney and Glen Powell movie comes out and you're like, "Oh, I guess they're not." You know what I mean?

Gerry Rich (48:44):

100%. So - And the thing is, is that if there's a real lack of those films in the marketplace, it means there's a real opportunity for those movies in the marketplace. I think about some of the great comedies that I worked on. One of the best was the original Ted, which was - 

Kevin Goetz (49:00):

Absolutely. Oh my God. Your campaign on that was revelatory. 

Gerry Rich (49:02):

With Universal. I mean, that was the universal... I was at.

Kevin Goetz (49:05):

And even Get Shorty what you turned that into.

Gerry Rich (49:07):

But a movie like Tropic Thunder, when you talk about a comedy, making an audacious comedy, Ben was absolutely brilliant on that movie, not just as the director, but the ensemble he put together, and he went for it. That movie had a reason for being... It was fresh, it was original. People would be talking about it. But don't just do another romantic comedy.

Kevin Goetz (49:28):

You mentioned Sinners.

Gerry Rich (49:30):

Sinners. Oh my God.

Kevin Goetz (49:31):

I wanna mention one last thing to you. Yeah. And that is an endorsement. I wanna say to our listeners, get the book, Chasing Hollywood: A Marketing Chief's Lessons on Breaking Through, because it's more than just one person's story. There are practical lessons. If you are a new filmmaker, if you're somebody who is just sort of trying to figure out what to do, I found it very instructive and helpful and fun as hell to read. Just a blast. Gerry, thank you, my friend, my colleague for years and years. And also, it's very special to me that we are here together reminiscing, especially as we both enter our third acts.

Gerry Rich (50:17):

Thank you so much for having me. I've been so looking forward to coming in and talking to you because of all the people, we've kind of gone through this together along a similar timeline doing things tangentially together. And I'm really so proud of what you've done with your career and the places you've gone. And you're always looking for that what's next and how do I continue to evolve? And that just doesn't happen after we've been doing this a while and I'm in awe. And you're doing it so well and you love what you do. And you come out there every day and greet audiences with the enthusiasm of your first time. And that means so much.

Kevin Goetz (50:56):

Thank you so much. Before we close, I want to take a moment to remember our dear friend and colleague, Frank Mancuso, who passed away shortly after Gerry and I recorded this conversation. Frank was a legendary studio executive who led both Paramount and MGM. But more importantly, he was a man of extraordinary kindness, integrity, and class. As you heard Gerry say, he was the ultimate statesman, and I couldn't agree more. He will be deeply missed, and our hearts go out to his wife, Faye, and the rest of his family. To our listeners, I hope you enjoy this conversation. For more insights into filmmaking, audience testing, and the business of Hollywood, I invite you to check out my books, Audienceology, and How to Score in Hollywood at Amazon or through my website at KevinGoetz360.com. You can also follow me on my social media. Next time on Don't Kill the Messenger, I'll be joined by one of the world's leading voices on media technology and the digital future, Jeff Cole. Until then, I'm Kevin Goetz, and to you, our listeners, I appreciate you being part of the movie-making process. Your opinions matter.

Host: Kevin Goetz
Guest: Gerry Rich
Producer: Kari Campano
Writers: Kevin Goetz, Darlene Hayman, and Kari Campano
Audio Engineer: Gary Forbes (DG Entertainment)